I’m wondering if there is no power, water etc. what are the possible problems that could cause sewers to back up into the basement…any preventive measures or ideas on what to do if it happens? Is this a big enough risk that preps should not be on the floor? Thanks for your input. KTea
KTea----Pallets. Big, wooden pallets. You can pick them up at most grocery stores for almost nothing. Made of wood, and will raise whatever you put on them about 4 to 6 inches off the floor.
You need a backflow preventer put on your sewer line. If you can do the work yourself, cost is about $120. If you have a plumber do it, cost is about $600 on up. It’s basically just a valve that lets sewage in the pipe flow only one way, away from your house.
Kim’s advice of a backflow preventer is a good one, particularly for those who may be on the downhill side of a sewer system.
There are three things you need to know if you’re a a plummer. 1) Payday’s are Friday. 2) The boss is a jerk 3) All sewage flows downhill. <g>
Reason #3 is why most neighborhood sewage systems employ collection basins at the lowest point in the neighborhood. These are pumped up and out by lift stations, which transports the sewage down the line and to the sewage treatment plant.
These lift stations run on electricity. If the power goes out, they have an alarm that goes off alerting utility workers that they are no longer pumping. The collection basin will, for a few hours or days, provide a buffer for the effluent, but at some point, it will reach capacity, and the sewers begin to back up into homes.
I’ve seen this happen, and the results are not pretty. Imagine flushing the toilet and having a contaminated geyser errupt from the shower drain!
Just one more problem to add to the list.
>>>Is this a big enough risk that preps should not be on the floor?
Preps should never be on the floor…period.
Even water barrels should be on something…wood, pallets, etc.
nawty
Be aware too that if you install a backflow preventer, it does NOT mean that you’ll be able to flush a toilet or put any other water into the sewer system if there’s a backup of any kind! We installed a backflow preventer because our town is too cheap to fix the antiquated broken sewer pipes… every time it rains hard, the rainwater seeps into the broken sewer pipes and causes “basement geysers”. We have to remember that when it’s raining hard that we cannot flush or let any water down the drains, else our flush or drain water will just come right back up. As soon as the storm is over and the sewer has emptied out again, it’s safe to flush once more.
Are all municipal city sewer systems constructed in this way, or should we contact the city to determine specific features of our sewer system. Is it a possibility that the house if built (or worked on) recently may already have the backup valve? - that for homes built after a specific date, it’s a standard feature or something?
Hi all, Thanks for your ideas. I came across something called a plumber’s stopper, would this help? Is it something that would have to be used on all the drains in the basement? I know nothing about plumbing. Do those drains empty into the sewer? The tiny town I live in is 90% flat, about a mile square in area with a very small hill in the center of town that flattens out within one or two blocks on all sides. I live at the point where it just starts to flatten out. I also have a Beaver system in the basement that empties into the floor drain. Could this be used as a water source? Groundwater drains into the Beaver through holes drilled into foundation. Was also wondering if there was electricity, about using the water from the dehumidifier..is that ok to drink?
KTea
I posted links to a number of PDF files in the Cooperative Thinking Water thread. Some of the papers deals with this and similar problems.
Some older cities have combined stormwater/sewage systems, where both rainwater and sewage flow through the same pipe. The EPA years ago set a deadline for cities to fix this, but are not enforcing it in any meaningful way. Our town has separate pipes for sewage and rainwater, but they’ve let the sewage pipes deteriorate so bad that they’re all busted apart underground, so that anytime the ground gets saturated with water it seeps into the sewage pipes (basically, this town is floating on a layer of sewage… when a hard rain hits, it fills the broken pipes with rainwater and pushes it all up into people’s homes… in the past we had “geysers” of combined rain/sewage water spewing 4 feet high from the floor drain, shower and toilet in the basement, and also shooting out through the joints in the cast-iron drain pipe which drains the upstairs). I would imagine that building codes vary from place to place, so that even a brand new house may not be required to have a backflow preventer. You can ask your city whether you’re on separate sewage/stormwater systems. If you’re not sure what you have, it may be worthwhile to have a plumber come out and tell you just what kind of setup you have, and if you don’t have a backflow preventer, how much it would cost to install one. If you’re going to build a house, DEFINITELY have one installed during construction, it’s cheap insurance! If you have a backflow preventer, it should have an access hole directly above it for maintenance, it should be directly above the valve. The valve may be in your basement, or even out in the yard somewhere. It will be installed somewhere between these two spots… where the sewer line for your house empties into the sewer line for your neighborhood; and the last drainage fixture in your home (usually a floor drain, but not always). The valve itself has a screw-on type “lid” on it so you can access it for maintenance, and the actual valve is nothing more than a flap that allows stuff to flow in one direction only.
Thank Goodnes we are on a septic system and don’t need to worry about this problem. Plenty of other things to worry about.
Thank Goodness we are on a septic system and don’t need to worry about this problem. Plenty of other things to worry about.
RT_B, Septic tanks are not immune. That’s why septic tank `health’ is so important, and pump-out services make a living. <g>
Many septic tanks can go years, even decades, without a problem. But septic tanks do back up. Probably won’t be a problem, but no guarantee. <g>
KTea at 10:21, the water from your foundation pump is ok for cleaning, etc, but likely not ok to drink. The water from your dehumidifier should be ok for drinking, but if it was me I’d treat it first with bleach, and make sure to keep the tank really clean. I’m not sure what the “plumber’s stopper” is that you’re referring to, so can’t help you there.
OK so I think I know the answer but I want to ask anyway. I am at the top of a hill. The sewage starts to back up due to pumping stations failing. Now the geysers would occur in the homes at the bottom of the hill assuming they did not all have a back flow preventer? Am I correct in thinking other than this back flow devise there is no other way to isolate a house from the sewage system?
Sewage does not strictly flow downhill, it flows downgradient, which may be downhill.
All I can tell you is this… if your neighbor has a backflow preventer and you don’t (assuming your shared sewer main is on a fairly level pitch at that point), not only will you get your share of the backed-up sewage in your basement, you’ll also get the full amount of sewage that would have flowed into your neighbors basement (it’s all gotta go somewhere!). It is a nasty, nasty cleanup job after this happens, as you can well imagine… not only do you have water damage to contend with, you have sewage water to wade through, and most everything the water touches will be ruined. The final episode we had of this happening cost us about $4,000 just in damaged materials, doesn’t even begin to count the labor costs of us cleaning the shi* up (and no the city won’t reimburse one dime, say it’s not their fault but an act of God, and yes I’ve already sued them and lost). Again I say, a backflow preventer is cheap insurance. :(
Oh, and your homeowner’s insurance won’t cover the damage either :(
There is also something called a “Boozy” valve. It has a handle like a ships steering wheel(but removable). You close the line out to the main manually.
The situation Kim describes above is exactly the reason why some municipalities don’t allow sewerage backflow preventing devices-It merely forces the waste to find some other place to go.As a result, some of you may find that you cannot get a plumber to install one.
Fla Medic wrote: RT_B, Septic tanks are not immune. That’s why septic tank `health’ is so important, and pump-out services make a living. <g>
Many septic tanks can go years, even decades, without a problem. But septic tanks do back up. Probably won’t be a problem, but no guarantee. <g>
You should “Feed” your septic tank monthly. My DH is a Master Plumber and puts one pack (not all three ) of yeast down one toilet monthly. The yeast feeds the good bacteria which breaks down the solids in the septic tank. You should also watch bleach usage in the laundry as bleach kills the good bacteria. If you can afford it and have the space,expand the drainfield as large as you can. It costs about 2 grand for the best materials and largest area. A smaller size would probably be less. We expanded ours to the maiximum size our yard would allow which resulted in 3 tmes the size that was originally put in. The original drainfield had a two person capaity for a four bedroom house!Homebuilders are notorious for installing the cheapest and smallest system they can get away with. A “pump out “ of your septic tank can run anywhere from 150 to 200 dollars. If your drainfield is healthy the pumpout won’t have to be done often if the drainfield is shot(the materials used for the drainage does breakdown over time) you will have to pump everytime the drainfield gets filled up.A pump out more than once every five years means you need a new drainfield.
Wow! pipes! Sounds a little like the bird flu prepper situation: “You want to prep to protect yourself, but we can take your stuff under hoarding laws and not compensate you” “You want to install a backflow valve to protect yourself, but we won’t let you and if something happens will not compensate you.” Seems like the S*&% keeps rising no matter what you try to do. :(
OK..I almost hate to “go” here, (outhouse humor) but if you should find yourself trying to use an outside privy, in suburbia, keep in mind that it is better to dig a very shallow pit and cover it with dirt, vs. a very deep outhouse type scenario. Most of the bacteria that break down wastes are found only in the top 6″ or so of soil. So it would be better to have many shallow pits vs. a very large deep pit which would never really break down.
Kim- thanks for the link here from the TP thread. Sounds like you have become well-educated on the subject:o) We do live in the middle of a big hill and I just threw out 10 large garbarge bags of “soiled” stuff from our basement geyser. I really can’t imagine the mess if all the toiletsand shower heads “blow” also with no water to clean things up! Where can one get instructions on how to install this —is it called a “back flow preventer”.
SCW AZ-will look for a “boozy” also:o)
whoops my name disappeared from the above post
Before we bought our house (which has a backflow valve) we lived in an apartment complex on the first floor. We had massive sewer breakage in the street and the sewage started backing up on the first floor. The alarm went out as everyone’s tub started filling up with sewage (lowest point). Everyone on the ground floor was bailing it out and dumping it out our patio doors. Finally, I wrapped a rag in plastic wrap, stuffed it in the tub drain (no stopper thing) and put a couple of bricks on top of it. Since all the tubs were the lowest place, we had no problem with the toilet backing up (we just couldn’t use it), but the next apartment down the row got even more in her tub because of it. I went over there right away and told her to do the same thing as we did but she just got all girly/fluttery and perferred to just complain and whine. I should have reminded her that the next apartment down from her was the caretaker’s apartment who was a real druggy b@tch and a dealer too. Reminds me of people who won’t prep. Anyway, we went to bed while everyone else just kept bailing. My husband was a little ticked because he didn’t think of what I did and he worked for Roto Rooter before (me too,but I was just a dispatcher). Heh, later, the caretaker got busted for trying to cash tenent’s rent checks. That place was a trip! Sorry, I kinda drifted here. Get a back flow valve if at all possible.
Okay, here is some info from Canada:
http://www.edmonton.ca/ForHouseholds/flood/Backwater_Valves_handouts.pdf
And info from FEMA:
http://www.fema.gov/fima/how2007.shtm
And another helpful website (probably most helpful, explore this one fully):
http://www.backwater-valves.com/Backflow-Prevention-Links.asp
Thanks—I was not getting anywhere googling “boozy”:o)
I doubt you’ll find any clear-cut instructions for installing one of these valves yourself. We did install ours ourselves, because we had fairly easy access to the pipe; we didn’t care a rat’s ass about any requirements by the city (who obviously didn’t care about any flooding their negligence caused, and in fact advised us that all we could do was install a backflow preventer, but of course they would like to have their cut of money expended via their “permit fees”); and a plumber we called gave us an estimate of $2,000 to do the job. We had to first locate the pipe, which we did by running water and using a glass pressed to our ear and the floor to hear the water rushing through the pipe. Look for your floor drain and work out in a circle from there to locate the pipe. We also used a metal detector to help in the locating, but it wasn’t too accurate. Then we used a jackhammer to bust out the concrete floor over the pipe (we had to expose about 3 feet of the pipe). Our pipe was only about 12″ below the floor surface. We had to be absolutely sure that we were digging somewhere along the main lateral, between where it joins the city sewer line and where the last drain of any kind goes into the system. Once we broke the concrete, we had to carefully dig out the soil surrounding the cast iron pipe. Then we cut out a section of the pipe with a reciprocating saw, after we first carefully measured the backflow preventer to make sure we weren’t taking out too little, or even worse, too much, of the cast iron pipe. We fit the backflow preventer into the pipe and secured it with rubber slleves and stainless steel hose clamps. We ran plenty of water to check for leaks, then carefully backfilled under and around the valve and pipe. We used a short piece of large diameter PVC pipe to create an access hole above the valve, and carefully backfilled around that. Then we mixed concrete and repaired the hole in the floor. Took us 2 days, not a job for the squeamish or if you’re not confident of your abilities. If you don’t have a clear idea of what you’re doing, or aren’t sure of your abilities, I’d recommend you have a plumber do it. You could probably save some money by finding and exposing the pipe for the plumber and then agreeing to repair the floor yourself when he’s finished.
Kind of funny- I designated tax refund money to have our septic emptied this spring just because we’ve lived here 6 years and have no idea when it was last done… Different problem we would have without electricity is that we are VERY dependent on our 3 sump pumps and fans at certain times of the year and that time of year is fast approaching. Time to get everything up off the floor! Think I’ll invest in a long handled squeegy.
Kim: appreciate your info. This new twist is quite disturbing (good idea about doing prep work—I am very skilled with a sledge hammer and I am frequently dragging my poor husband into do-it-yourself projects. ) But my husband is not convinced we need to prep and adding an expensive project now is not going to fly with him…if we can’t afford this project I am very concerned about the impact of the sewage line losing electricity. I felt I could cope with losing toilets and running water but not sure I can cope with sewage everywhere. I am getting overwhelmed again…
I have been dealing with water issues in the home we just bought and found this web site to be very helpful on sewer, backflow valve, stand pipe issues, etc. Good FAQ.
Someone on another thread asked about having a backup for their sump pump; I am cross-referencing my answer here as well because it might be easier to find under this heading.
“There are battery-operated backup systems designed just for sump pumps. Just google “battery backup sump pump” to find out more. Highly recommend one of these, as your sump pump will be working the hardest during a storm, when you’re also most likely to lose electricity.”
Kim - your town and my town sound exactly the same. There have been problems with storm sewer and sanitary sewer water mixing for as long as I can remember. Luckily I’m on the upper end of town, but I know people who have had big time damage that they never got any reimbursement for.
Older thread, closing for speed purposes.
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