I’m asking a question for myself, but hope it may be relevant to lots of other people too.
Background: I live in an urban UK flat, with no outside space, cellar, attic, etc. Think very limited storage space. Also, I’m relatively optimistic about the actual chance of a pandemic serious enough that I will want to isolate happening, so I’m not prepared to give up an arbitrary proportion of my space or money to it. What I’m trying to do is to get the best possible value from the resources I’m prepared to find. We are two adults and a toddler, no pets.
My question: suppose I were prepared to spend just another $100 and/or find just another half cubic metre of storage space, what would be the
recognised?
We have:
- food: for 6–8 weeks, almost entirely as extra stocks to rotate of things we eat anyway (plus a few oddities, like a small amount of powdered milk and vitamins)
- water: 20l or so of bottled water, plus 4 15l collapsible water containers which I would fill from the tap the moment I heard about sustained H2H anywhere in the world (also have water purification tablets)
- power: splitting the problem:
--- communication: we have a hand-cranked radio, and we have phones (landline and mobile) that don’t need mains power
--- cooking: we can cook if *either* gas *or* electricity supply continues, and we have a camping ring running on bottled gas, and a couple of cannisters of gas. I’m not prepared to stockpile more bottled gas because I think the extra fire risk outweighs the benefit. It would be high on the list of things to try to get in the day or two warning we might have, but I realise the difficulty.
--- heat: if the electricity’s out, we’ll be uncomfortable (but wouldn’t freeze, we have plenty of blankets and the climate here is moderate)
--- light: I have plenty of candles (and matches!)
--- other: I asked (as anon, accidentally) earlier about the Freeplay Weza power source, for laptops or whatever. I’ve no other ideas. A conventional generator is out of the question.
- toiletries: have a 6–8 weeks supply of basics like toilet paper, soap, toothpaste. (Our toddler is currently in cloth nappies, but close to toilet training I think. If water or electricity problems meant we couldn’t wash them, we’d be spending our isolation time toilet training him! Given the environmental impact of disposables, I’m not prepared to stockpile them.)
- 5 FP3 (better than N95) masks, latex gloves, three bottles of bleach; but these are intended for absolute emergencies, we wouldn’t plan to go out if a pandemic were severe
- OTC medicines for flu, but as I said, Plan A is not to catch it…
- cash, the equivalent of $200 or so
Thanks for any comments!
Hmmmm…. I am hardly an expert on this forum (a newbie) but I immediately thought you would want to get some Pedialyte rehydration solution (and there are recipes to make it yourself with water, salt, and sugar on the board) for your toddler. You may have this as an otc, but just in case you don’t, that’s my immediate thought….and others who are wiser will chime in. If I think of anything else I will certainly chime in again.
Two thoughts on that: most importantly, my toddler still breastfeeds (WHO recommends breastfeeding to at least the age of 2 years, not a lot of people seem to know that!) and I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a child being able to keep down anything else and not breastmilk, it’s about as easily absorbed as ORS it seems. Second (relevant if breasmilk were unavailable, e.g. I were dead, I suppose) I thought the home made versions (for which we have the ingredients) were close enough that there’d be no reason to stockpile the commercial version. Make sense? Thanks for the comment and welcome from a mostly-lurker :-)
what about a breast pump if your little one were too sick to accually nurse? That way you could pump, and either spoon feed or use an eye dropper. Not to mention of coarse extra water for momma.
Mathematician- I would suggest to get a wash board if you can find one, to help keep all of those diapers clean (my little ones were in mostly cloth too). A good-sized (you’ll know better than I your storage and laundering needs) heavy plastic of galvanized bucket for laundry. Liquid laundry soap, a little goes a very long way when handwashing. Clothespins and clothes hangers or a sturdy line of some kind to hang things to dry in your flat, and a secure place to hang them (make sure to protect the floor underneath with a tray or something). I hope that is helpful! I’ll post more if I think of anything else…
if you are in the UK, instead of bottles of bleach, get bleach tablets like this http://tinyurl.com/n4cop It’s lots cheaper and easier to store.
That’s a good thought. Actually I already have two (one needing mains, one not) from when he was young enough to need it at nursery. Unfortunately I never was good at letting down for a pump, and the stress of really needing to would hardly make things better. Still, good idea.
Get lots of plastic sheets and duct tape, to create infection control barriers if necessary See here setting up a sick room
Also plastic buckets and/or handbasins, again for infection control purposes re above link. Alcohol wipes, first aid kit.
[My 11.10 post was in reply to Carry at 11.04, sorry for not saying so]
MaMa 11:08 - lots of ideas there, thanks. I have most for other reasons, but the washboard is one I hadn’t thought of.
anon_22 11:09 - thanks, I’d never heard of them. I’m not very clear on just why people feel they need lots of bleach though, assuming the main plan is to isolate, so not needing lots to decontaminate people coming in and out. For the toilet if water is interrupted? Small amounts for drinking water if the supply continues but is suspect, I suppose. Am I missing something big? I have 3 bottles of bleach and have a hard time imagining needing more.
anon_22 11:14 - frankly, I think if one of us gets flu, we’re all going to get it. I looked at the setting up a sick room stuff before, but it seems futile to me, at least for our situation. Do you really disagree? If so, can you explain why?
Hey, Mathematician! You are getting lots of great advice. I think it’s great that your little one still nurses as the immune system benefits are unparalleled, from what I understand. For what it’s worth, I have had an experience with a child not being able to keep down milk (due to rotavirus) — I administered one spoonful of plain pedialyte every 10 minutes as larger amounts also came right back up. As for whether you want to make it yourself or store some in bottles, that’s a space/convenience question. However, in the event everyone is sick, it might be nice to have a bottle or two around for convenience’s sake.
First the bleach and related question: if you live in a flat, the chance of catching the virus from other people is quite high. However, it is still possible to try to reduce it. Check out this thread on urban living for ideas that might apply.
One important thing that I mentioned on both those threads is that you need to assume that your plumbing is contaminated by other people who may be infected. Instead of repeating myself, that information is in either or both of these threads.
The other thing about infection in a household: if one person is infected, you may be right in that eventually everyone is going to get it, but that may not be true. Also, even if it is, it is still worthwhile trying to slow down the spread. Let’s say you have 4 people A,B,C,&d. Person A gets sick. He may spread it to B who gets sick a few days later. Then B gives it to C and so on. But A could also give it to B,C,& D all at the same time.
This virus has the potential to make people severely ill if not fatal. Having one person sick is going to be extremely stressful and traumatic that it would be worthwhile to at least attempt to either prevent or delay infecting the others.
If you haven’t done so already check out our infection control page. The links for Hong Kong would be most useful for your purpose.
anon_22 at 11:44
Thanks. I hadn’t really thought that one through for a household. Obviously, many of us are trying to “flatten the spike” in our communities, but I guess we can do it in a multi-person dwelling, too.
I appreciate your work.
Rubber gloves and clean toilet plunger for washing diapers and other clothes, fever thermometer, windup flashlight because toddler can’t knock it over. Fire extinguisher. Food for recovering sick people: ginger ale, chicken soup, applesauce, etc.
Hi Mathematician, another toddler-nursing mom here. I understand the letdown issue, and it still might be worth trying to pump some milk to freeze just in case (God forbid) you get sick AND (please God) the power stays on to keep the milk frozen. I still second the Pedialyte suggestion---again, just in case. Breast milk is also a good all-purpose medicinal aid, as I’m sure you know. For any moms of formula-fed infants who might be lurking and feeling some concern about storing enough formula, did you realize it can be possible to induce lactation even several months after birth? This might be something to consider… Probably a pretty hardcore option for prep…
feminine hygiene products (tampons etc and more toilet paper, also baby wipes in case water gets cut off
Now would be the time to devise some strategies for dealing with your toddler’s energy outlet needs. <grin>
I’ve got a 2 year old and I just realized how much work he is really turning out to be. It take myself and the four kids to manage him some days. He is one active little boy. I’m trying to come up with activities in case we have to be cooped up inside for days on end.
My husband is also a very active guy. As in, he cannot sit down unless its time to sleep. Type A personality that is very much a workaholic. We are trying to come up with ways to curb the stress that enforced quarantine would create for our household.
I do not know where everyone lives, but here in florida we have dollar stores- everything is one dollar- I went and loaded up on shower curtains - good ole fairly heavey weight plastic. comes with the hooks too, so use them for covering or creating home made isolation type setting! Since we also have hurricane season coming up in june , all my supplies are very usefull! Hope this can be used by someone!
Kathy in FL, I’ve got a three year old girl, just started preschool this year, and goes like mad until her head hits the pillow at night, then boom she’s up and running the next morning right away. It’s our first (and only), and I’m definitely wondering what to do with her during a quarantine. If this hits in the autumn, school will just be starting, so that will be a little confusing to her to pull her out and keep her home -though I won’t hesitate. I’ll set up a home school schedule for her for at least half days. Important to her psychologically to feel a continuity in her life.
I’m counting on a lot of art projects. Papier mache, clay, coloring, painting, all kinds of stuff. Providing there’s electricity, I’m putting aside some DVD’s, since distracting with television can be helpful in some situations.
I’m not convinced we’re going to need to stay inside the entire time. Just away from other people and animals, so there’s the backyard. Or the park, if there are no other people there (or birds).
It will definitely be a life changing experience for the little ones. Part of me worries me that it will give birth to a generation of “germ freaks”, who will have an adversarial relationship with nature, fearful of it.
I’ve got lots of lollipops put aside, too.
Satago brings up a really good question - birds? We live in a semi-rural area (on 3 acres so plenty of distance between neighbors) and there are wild birds all over the place, plus geese graze on the fields where my kids play soccer. Assuming this spreads to wild birds in North America, are we going to have to stay indoors to avoid possible contamination from bird feces, etc.? Isolation for weeks on end would be bad enough. I can’t imagine being trapped inside the house with three young kids for weeks on end!
I don’t think it’s a matter of remaining within the walls of a building as much as it is being careful *where* you go outside. Although, believe me I know how hard it is to make sure your kid doesn’t put his/her hand in something yucky…so, maybe a good time to look into some of those owl statues. Maybe strap one on your head? Maybe an airhorn, too.
the phrase “making it up as we go along” comes to mind. Just like parenting in normal situations.
I recently saw a show on the Spanish Flu of 1918. They interviewed several people who were very young children at the time, and they were asked them “how did you survive”. The answer was that their parents “forced” them to stay inside or within a gated backyard. It sounded awful, but they lived to talk about it. I think all of us with pets and children will have a really hard time “quarantining” our loved ones. When the time comes, we will just have to do it. Games and pastimes will certainly help and I applaud all of us who are thinking ahead, but the bottom line is that it is really going to be a miserable, difficult time! It will test each and every one of us - no matter how young or how old. The goal is to get beyond it and look back on it as a difficult time that we got ourselves and our families through ALIVE. I find myself trying to prep enough to make this an “easy” time on my family…but I realize that I just can’t make that happen no matter how hard I try. I have resigned myself to only being able to get them through it alive, God willing.
Thanks everyone! I’ll stop saying which suggestions we’ve actually already thought about, because that isn’t what’s interesting to everyone else reading. Just a few comments/questions:
- sanitary protection: I use a Mooncup, which other women game for a change might like to consider; means one less thing to stockpile. (There are other brandnames, I forget what they are.)
- plumbing contaminated by other people who may be infected? I don’t get it. Maybe in Greece or [insert other country about whose plumbing we joke] but surely not in the UK! Remember we don’t even have proper mixer taps because our regulations are so paranoid about contamination of the mains… Unless you mean contaminated at the water treatment plant, in the absence of proper disinfection there, I suppose, but I think that’s another issue.
- toddler energy. Yes, have thought about it, no good solution. He likes running up and down the hall, that may have to do.
- being in a flat making a difference: well, yes and no. No, I think, if we’re doing real isolation, meaning staying behind our own front door. I have read about people worrying about air coming in round the edges of a door from a common stairwell - but is there any real reason to think that flu has ever been transmitted that way? It sounds vanishingly unlikely to me. What it does do is cut us off from the “go out into the garden” option that people in houses may have. I’m assuming we just wouldn’t do that.
- worth trying to slow the spread of the virus? I still don’t think the chances of doing so, with only three people involved, one of them a toddler, and in a flat with only one bathroom (among other problems) are high enough to justify the stress of trying. Doubtless it’ll be useful for others to think about their own situations though.
Basically this thread is helping to reassure me that I haven’t forgotten anything very vital, though - which is useful in itself. Thanks again.
“plumbing contaminated by other people who may be infected?”
OK. I guess you still don’t get in. I’ll give a brief version cos the full version is in the other links that I posted. This is from the experience in SARS in Hong Kong when there was a severe outbreak where 300+ people were infected in one building and something like 35 people died What happened was one infected person went to visit his brother and used the bathroom. Unknown to everyone, there were defects in the U-pipes in the systems so that the whole thing became dangerously contaminated. Basically, outlet from the bathrooms in all the flats were exposed to the virus, and when people went to use the showers and turned on extraction fans, the virus became aerosolized and was inhaled.
BTW Hong Kong is one of the most advanced economy of the world, and if it can happen there, certainly it can happen anywhere.
You seem to take everything lightly which is ok, it’s your choice. But since you asked the questions, when people post answers, I would suggest that you actually go and read what is suggested rather than be dismissive and say there’s nothing to worry about. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who can help each other. It’s good if this thread reassures you but if that is only because you do not believe what other people tell you then you may have missed a few things along the way.
Just my two cents…
A couple of thoughts on the kids - Good on you for keeping on with the feeding mathematician, I fed until my daughter was well gone 4 and don’t regret a minute of it. She gave it up naturally when she was ready. One thing I thought of whilst reading your post - if you catch flu and are feeding you should pass on some immunity to your toddler ?? I don’t know enough about what stage the body starts making antibodies but if anyone can clarify this one??
Keeping them occupied. I know I am going to get shouted at for this one but when you isolate, take all their toys away. Give them one toy at a time and hide the rest. Grandma’s have always said - and science now agrees - that a little boredom is good for kids. Give them one simple toy and they will find a couple of dozen uses for it. Give them a couple of dozen and they will say they’re bored and refuse to play with anything!!
Too much energy - that’s what bouncing on beds is for LOL
anon_22, do you think you might be being just a little touchy? I’m not taking this lightly, I’m merely asking for evidence that a threat exists before I plan to eliminate it. The problem in HK (and btw, if there was a link to the detail of this story in what you posted, it wasn’t obvious to me; I followed every link you posted, but not every link from each of the linked pages) seems to have involved U bends being systematically left dry - not something that happens here. For anyone else interested, the most interesting link I found on googling was this. A WHO PR on the incident (here) emphasises that proper plumbing practices, as used in most parts of the world (but not HK, whatever the prestige of its economy) would have prevented this kind of spread.
There are a lot of knowledgeable people here, true, but that does not mean that it’s sensible to “believe” everything anyone says here without applying one’s own brain and questioning. To be insulted when someone doesn’t treat what you say that way is, frankly, silly.
Hi Mathmetician!
I breast fed my children for 2 years, also. Maybe this will give our children an edge, in fighting this infection off.
I am planning on total isolation, for my “chicks” and myself. However, I cannot predict the future and cannot remain totally confident that our quaranteen won’t be broken, either by someone on the outside or an emergency on the inside. Make sure you are prepared to deal with H5, if this beast enters your house. It would be a terrible thing, to find one of your loved ones with this deadly infection and no real way to provide treatment.
A couple of thoughts on the kids - Good on you for keeping on with the feeding mathematician, I fed until my daughter was well gone 4 and don’t regret a minute of it. She gave it up naturally when she was ready. One thing I thought of whilst reading your post - if you catch flu and are feeding you should pass on some immunity to your toddler ?? I don’t know enough about what stage the body starts making antibodies but if anyone can clarify this one??
Keeping them occupied. I know I am going to get shouted at for this one but when you isolate, take all their toys away. Give them one toy at a time and hide the rest. Grandma’s have always said - and science now agrees - that a little boredom is good for kids. Give them one simple toy and they will find a couple of dozen uses for it. Give them a couple of dozen and they will say they’re bored and refuse to play with anything!!
Too much energy - that’s what bouncing on beds is for LOL
sorry about the repeat post
Mathematician,
I don’t feel insulted. I just feel it’s a pity if you missed something important. But as I said, it’s up to you.
Where I live, we carry water to the house in 5 gallon containers. We also lived here for a couple years just running a generator occasionally. My wife also came from the Philippines and can wash clothes by hand extremely efficiently, a washboard is not needed to do this. She rarely does this now. It may make it easier but for sure not needed if space is limited. In fact, you can go some time with just changing underwear if you are not sweating a lot. You will find that if you can’t shower every day, it doesn’t make sense to dirty clean clothes every day. We go through about 6 gallons a day for myself, my wife and toddler. If we had to, we could cut that down.
Consider paper plates and bowls, this will save you a lot of water for washing dishes. Wet wipes are great for cleaning up. Picking up a nice NEW garbage can is also a good water storage system. You can store all your supplies in it until you need to fill it with water. Once you hear of a pandemic, take your supplies out and fill it immediately.
For food, I would go with rice as a main lifesaver. It has proven itself around the world as being able to sustain people when they would have died without it. Only drawback is it has to be cooked. Beans, pasta, powdered soups, ramon noodles, powdered eggs, powdered potatoes, etc. Tang drink mix is used up here a lot, it has vitamin C. Also hot chocolate mix, tea, instant coffee, etc.
Canned meats can be added to a rice/bean mixture for a filling meal. Make sure you get a gallon of soy sauce as well as other seasonings. Salt and pepper for sure but get a bunch of different things that can change things up if the outbreak last for an extended period of time. We have an Italian seasoning mixture we use in most meals. Garlic powder is another one that we use a lot it seems. Anything to make things a bit different than the day before.
A great cheap snack is popcorn. You can get some butter flavored oil that keeps well and a little salt and your good to go. They also have a cheeze in a pressurized can called Cheeze Whiz I think, that keep really well. Crackers can be used with the cheese or can be added to soups.
I have incouraged my family to stockpile some. Also, I have told them to make a list of things to get at the last minute. Once a H2H outbreak begins anywhere in the world, your list kicks in and that day you go and get the last minute items. Anything on this last minute list you should be able to go without if you had to. This is a wish list for a worst case scenario.
Make sure you have some new reading material. I recommend a Bible but anything that will give you mental strength would be helpful in a stressful time. Keep some fun reading material that will lighten the mood also. Remember, even is a worste case scenario, most will survive this and civilization will go on.
Civil unrest is a real possibility. I highly recommend a means to protect your family other than your fist. Living in Alaska with Grizzly bears and moose, I know what I will have for protection but many don’t like guns. Pepper spray would be a good alternative, the bigger the can the better. I am a real believer in safety in numbers. If you have friends or family that you trust, include them in your plan. Especially consider this if they are in a rural location that you could go to and get away from large populations centers. You are planning more than most so you have more to loose if it gets bad, so plan for this possibility as well.
If you have little kids who can open a door, maybe get some kind of hooks or deadbolts to put high up on the doors so they don’t run outside while you’re busy with something else and not watching. There are discipline things that will be more serious than they ever have been before.
It wouldn’t hurt to stock up on little gifts( and wrap and candles) in case Christmas/birthday catches you staying in! Also, indoor ‘active” toys, like Nerf balls, you can tape a cardboard basketball goal up, jumping rope if you have room. There are recipes all over the place for home made play-doh, fingerpaint, etc. Also, film for the camera /disposable camera, journal. Don’t lose a precious moment !
Quite a bit earlier on this post, bleach was being discussed. I think everyone falls back on bleach for a strong cleaning tool. Clorox has just come out with a new product—a spray disinfectant. I bought it so that I can use it to spray shoes and things coming in from outside.
At emergency essentials (www.beprepared.com) they sell this really cool hand washer gadget. It’s much easier than an old fashioned washboard. I have switched over from powdered laundry detergents to liquid because it will be easier to wash out of the clothing. This little washing machine has a hand crank on it and you can take your clothes from it to hang dry. My sisters use them on their camping trips. With a little one, if you run out of diapers, you can use cloth and it will be vital to have a way to clean the cloth diapers. Even if it were only used to personal clothing items, it would be helpful :)
Another way to store foods compactly is for example: use a gallon ziploc bag or a mylar bag or the bags you use with the often referred to sealer (I don’t use it, I forget the name, sorry) and fill it with a complete meal that only requires water. You could add a chicken helper box mix, if it requires butter or milk, you can add the powdered versions and include a note inside that gives the water requirement. Keep it with a can of chicken. It’s really easy to cook—boil water, you can add a ziploc bag and it will cook everything inside, nice and easy. Make sure you store lots of snacks for the little one. I seal pop-tarts in a can so that we have some comfort foods. If I didn’t seal them up, my kids would finish them el pronto.
Another thing I thought of for those with limited space as well as for those of us that are a little uncomfortable with storing too many flammable products—at the camping stores, they carry little portable campstoves that you can use to heat a pot of boiling water with little squares of fuel. The squares will heat for about an hour and can boil water. I don’t know if they burn hot enough to cook something like a stew? for example, but this can be a minor help when fuel for cooking is in short supply :)
http://zenstoves.net/SolidFuelBurner.htm see the above link for info Those little square of fuel are expensive, they are either hexamine or trioxane and one or the other can produce toxic fumes. I use them for hot weather backpacking, but they take a long time to boil water (when the water is warm to begins with). They are good for emergency, but not for long term. I apolize for not using tiny URL, but i think its tiny enough and I like seeing where i’m going when i follow a link.
Get yourself a couple of nice big thermos bottles and learn how to cook in them. This is an excellent way to economize the fuel that you have stored.
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Don’t forget to stock lots of garbage bags. Buy some hot water bottles in case the heat goes off and someone feels chilled. Buy one of those black camping shower bags to heat water with sunlight. Build yourself a solar camping oven so you can cook with sunlight when the sun is shining and save on fuel. Buy some gas cans and fill them immediately when you know disaster is coming for sure, because you may have to go and get more water and you might need extra gas for this. Make sure you have a good steam vaporizor to help a sick person breathe easier. Stock lots of kleenex. Pick up some 5 gallon pails from your local bakery and fill them full of grains (beans, lentils, oatmeal, rice etc.) and then stack them one on top of the other to save on space.
anonymous at 02:42, esbit tabs are another type of solid fuel cube, but it burns at 1,400 deg F for about 12–14 minutes, and will easily boil water. First used by the German army during WW2, used by hikers and backpackers the world over since then.
Kim at 7:21, thanks for that reference, Esbit sounds useful. Bit expensive to stockpile in quantity, it seems, but even so, maybe worth having a few packets, as a backup option in case of short power outages. And thanks everyone, lots of good ideas here.
Kim- Esbit is the brand I use, it is hexamine. There is another brand you can get in bulk at military surplus stores that is the trioxane, and it is cheaper, but produces somewhat toxic vapors. I keep a small esbit stove and about 6 tablets in my earthquake kit and in my car emergency kit. I use them backpacking in the summer when we just want to boil water for coffee or tea, and maybe a boil in a bag meal. It takes about 12 minutes, most of one tablet, depending on the wind, to boil a small pot of water, when the water is warm to begin with. 6 Esbit tablets cost about 6 dollars. It is extremely convenient, but would get very expensive for even a moderate period of relying on the solid fuel tablets for your primary cooking heat.
I have the black shower bags for clean up. They look effective. Cannot use them for drinking water. Adult wipes are stored up and waiting. I was thinking we could “wash down” with one of the wipes, and then rinse with the shower bag water. Then use the water for the toilet. With a 400 gallon hot tub, and two tubs in the house, I feel comfortable with our water sources until we can collect rain water. Still thinking about getting that kiddie pool to collect water in, or to put in the house near a sunny window. A warm bath may be just the ticket some days.
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