Talk about alternative power options here. The original thread can be found here.
Bounced. Bumped. Thumped. Ouch.
There, there Bill. Just have some of this NY State Wine Cooler and Flu Preventative and I’m sure you’ll feel better. Wait, what’s that? Uh, Oh, its the Kahliforneeya Wine Police breaking Down your door.
LOL!! Tha “Bronco Blitz” is back…
Bumped for Eccles
Bump
Bumped for the heck of it.
For those who are contemplating roof top solar panels, here’s a story of
Thieves steal copper from church roof
Solar panel is more valuable per square foot, by the pound, whatever, than copper roofing. And we are still in ‘normal’ times.
Eccles,
Thank you for all your great advice.
I have been checking with local solar power companies to have panels installed at my home, in NJ the state will pay for 70% of the cost. Unfortunately it appears that I may not have enough south facing roof to qualify for the 70% rebate.
Thus, I have been pondering this power problem and have begun to look at my electric bills. It appears that I use 24,000 kwh per year, by using simple division I come up with 2,000 kwh per month and 66 kwh per day. I have a 6500w generator, it would seem, if I had enough battery backup, I could run the generator for 1 hour per day to power my house. I know I am missing something … I am guessing that I need huge battery bank and then a huge inverter. I am still missing something, right?
Worried- I think you slipped a decimal place somewhere. A 6500w generator can produce about 6 kwh per hour. So you would need ten to 11 hours of run time to generate that much power. And if you were trying to store it all, you would need a battery bank with a total of 5500 amp-hours capacity. That’s kind of huge.
I have a 6kw Generator. If I only had a week till the pandemic hits, what else should I buy, real quick, to help me to use this power?
I found 6 volt 225 AH Deep Cycle Batteries that I can buy locally $85 each I found 40 amp chargers that are Microprocessor Controlled $100 each And I need some inverters.
I was thinking about buying three chargers to charge three battery banks at the same time. I only want to run the generator 1 to 2 hours a day so I want to harness a much power from it as I can while it is running.
How many batteries should there be in each bank to best use the 40 amp charger? How many 40 amp chargers could I run off of my 6kw generator? And I was thinking each battery bank should have it’s own inverter?
Or in other words, If you could only run a 6kw gen for two hours a day, what would you do to save all that energy?
Has anyone investigated fly-wheel storage recently? Using a high-flywheel tied to a motor/generator (M/G). During the day with solar or off-peak with the normal grid the motor spins up the flywheel to optimum RPM, effectively storing power like a battery. At night or during grid loss the M/G switchover is faster than a generator start and the output can be AC, though frequency synchronization is an issue as eventually the mass will coast down. I remember research on this as far back as 1979 and the system is effectively the same a hybrid car that uses regenerative braking on the electric motor to charge the battery during deceleration. I wish I had the funds to do a start-up on it with the strides in control technology and solar and battery efficiency now would seem a good time to dust off the old Popular Mechanics and rethink it.
Opps, missed that important word “high-mass flywheel” form above.
I would use my 6kw gen to power a “high-mass flywheel”, if that was the way to go but I think people use batteries because it’s the best method so far.
If your high-mass flywheel breaks, are you going to call the service to get it fixed during a pandemic? Around here, they pump water uphill into a reservoir when they have excess power, and run a hydroelectric plant from the reservoir when they need peak power. Seems mechanically a lot simpler than a spinning multi-ton flywheel in the garage.
Gnerators are new to me but am I right in thinking I could run (8) 40amp chargers off of my 6 kw generator?
Same principal, just most people don’t have a handy set of lakes in their yards. As I said, it was a concept from years back. It just had the advantage of being relatively silent (unlike a generator), didn’t produce hydrogen in the recharge cycle like lead acid batteries, and had faster switch-over like a UPS. It would probably be more practical for a larger cluster of buildings (a compound or small condo group) anyhow. But the moving parts are actually less than a generator, so reliability was a selling point.
If I really had my “druthers”, a natural gas/propane/ethanol fuel cell is the system of choice for the point of having even fewer moving parts, a proven track record, quiet operation, and practical use before and after as a home power supply. NYC even is using one on a satellite police station in Central Park as a proof of concept. No idea on the price per KWH however.
If I did run 8 chargers, then I believe that’s 3840 watts stored in the bateries for every hour that I run the generator. Even if I only ended up with 3000 watts in the batteries, I would be happy.
3000 watts would last me 10 hours if I used 300 watts per hour.
Any help?
Watch Dog- I need you to kind of step me through this. Why is it that you feel you need to store up power in batteries to be released later? You have the inefficiencies of charging the batteries, loss due to internal self discharge during storage, and then the inefficiencies of conversion to AC by your inverters.
On a weight-to-weight or volume-to-volume comparison, the best place to store your energy is in your 5 gallon gas cans until needed. Unless you thik that your generator will immediately be stolen, or reveal your position to the zombies or some such.
Anyhow, I could certainly give you the engineering analysis for the chargers, etc, but my first question is why are we doing it this way?
(Start with the zombie premise.)
Ok, to start with I already own the 6kw gen. It burns 1 gallon an hour. I don’t need all 6000 watts at the same time. I only want 300 watts per hour. The generator is loud so I like the idea of ruinning it for only one hour and then having 10 hours of stored, energy in my batteries without the noise.
I also like the idea of only burning one gallon a day, instead of running the generator for 10 hours or 10 gallons a day. Even with the inefficiencies, I believe I could save a lot of energy with only one gallon of gas per day.
Is there a better way to use one gallon of gas?
Whoa, zombies? Suddenly a 4 ton flywheel with embedded cutting devices seems to have a dual purpose in power storage and home defense. Just kidding, and I hope everyone understands that! We have to keep laughing or what is the use of surviving!
What is the fuel usage under full load? On most gensets fuel usage is related to the amount of power you’re putting out. I have a battery bank, 1200 amp hours and use a 100 amp converter to charge it from either line or genset power, I also have solar panels and a wind genset. I found the best way was to use any available power to top off the bank. The hundred amp charger worked out to make my genset run at it’s most economical point, have to run a bit longer but uses far less gas than bigger genset at high load.
Hi! I’ve been looking at the Xantrex 1500 generator that someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, but I’ve got a few questions as I’m new to all this myself.
Here’s a little info that might help: I live in New Orleans (yeah, now you know why I want a solar generator!) so once a hurricane has passed, we’ve got plenty of sunlight. Judging from last years experience, we need to be able to recharge cell phones (tho I’m getting a hand crank charger for that, too), recharge batteries, run one or two laptops and a modem preferably for a couple of hours a day, and possibly a couple of fans and lights, tho those aren’t so important.
Though we will eventually install a solar system attached to the house, a portable generator makes the most sense right now as there is always a chance we won’t be able to stay in our house.
So my questions (that I haven’t been able to answer after hours of research) are:
Can the Xantex 1500 be recharged while it is being used? IE, can we use it during the day and be charging it at the same time? Because part of the point is to provide a place for others to charge up equipment or use the computer, and chances are we’d be under 6pm curfew. Or would I have to charge it during the day and then use it until the charge runs down and then recharge it? It’s pretty important that we be able to have access to power for at least a few hours every day.
If I can’t recharge it at the same time it is in use, does it make sense to get a couple of smaller generators (like the Xantrex 400s or 600s) and use them alternately?
OK, and then…. I found a really really good deal on the Xantrex 1500 by itself without the solar panel kit. Over at http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/cb/cb.asp?p=BOFS&i=101887 it’s $199.97 (refurbished) and I think that includes shipping.
So I’m sure I can get cheaper solar panels than the ones that come with the complete kits, but this is where I get completely confused. The user guide for the 1500 says:
“A 12 volt solar panel rated to produce a maximum of 12 amps can be used to charge xPower 1500 via the DC Power socket. Once the solar panel’s DC plug is inserted into the DC Power socket, and the solar panel is placed in the sun, xPower 1500 will charge automatically just as with the AC charger. With direct sunlight, a typical 3 amp solar panel will charge xPower 1500 in about 24 hours. If the solar panel does not have regulated output, disconnect it immediately after the xPower 1500 is charged.
Caution: A solar panel with unregulated output left connected after charging is complete, or one that exceeds output of 15 volts DC, can damage the battery.”
So, I guess my question here is if you can advise me on what kind of solar panels I can get, depending on what I can spend (I’d prefer not to spend more than $200, maybe $300 on the panels), that will recharge the generator the fastest (especially if I can’t recharge it while using it) that will be decent quality and able to withstand being moved around (ie, we may need to pack the whole system into the van if we have to evacuate).
Or is it a better option to get a couple of smaller solar powered generators?
Much appreciate any advice - and I hope the link to the cheap Xantex 1500s helps someone (just don’t buy them all before I buy mine;).
Oh, and for the folks asking about butane cooking - how lont the bottles last, etc. We used the small cans last year with a propane powered camp stove and found that one bottle generally lasted for at least couple of days, cooking mostly one pot meals (breakfast, lunch and dinner) and a 12-cup pot of coffee for roughly 10 people. We used it out on the balcony because it was too hot to cook inside, but I don’t think using it indoors would be a problem at all - maybe crack a window, but I don’t think there is anything to worry about.
Bumped for NOGoddess’ question – at 22:16
NOGoddess – at 22:16
OK, since Professor Eccles seems to have been tied up, I will try to give you my own experience.
1. You cannot charge and use the Xantrex at the same time. 2. Since you are looking for portability, even to bug out into a vehicle, there are panels made for such purpose, and they are not as durable as the permanently installed (roof top) ones, but the price is substantially less. I saw a kit made by Coleman with charger and a mounting stand (on top of parked RV or on the ground) and 3 x 15W panels for about $270 at a Costco. 3. First step is to determine how much power and how long you need in DC for an appliance. For example, if your auto 12V DC adapter for the laptop is rated at 90W and you plan to use the laptop for one hour a day to check emails etc, then you would need 90Watt-hour generating capacity. If you were to get the 45W panel, you would need to have 2 hour sun-light per day to ‘refill the bucket’ i.e. your Xantrex battery. Your Xantrex battery should have a ‘storage capacity’ of at least double that or 180 watt-hour, and at 12 volts that means 15 Amp Hours or Ah. Then you need 2 of these, one to charge, one to use so that you can FULLY UTILIIZE the generating capacity of the solar panel. 4. I also have a Xantrex made unit with 20Ah battery and a compressor (tire inflator) which if pandemic never comes, I will simply use it as a car emergency/booster kit. 5. Professor Eccles also taught me to use DC whenever possible. So yes, I bought a 12V auto adapter for my laptop.
NOGoddess- Forgive my absence, I unfortunately can’t be more than two places at once.
Picking up from Anon-YYZ, my first comments will be to address why you would want to both charge and draw from the Xantrex unit at the same time. Since the act of charging implies that you have a source of power available, then the first question I would ask is why not operate your device directly from the power source instead of from the Xantrex.
Also, since you plan on recharging it from solar panels, lets make sure you understand that charging the Xantrex with the $200-$300 worth of panels you are looking at is like refilling a giant bucket with a soda straw; it will fill it, but you’re going to wait a long time to do it. With a 45 watt array pointed right at the sun, you will need as much as 20 charging hours. That would normally be between 2 and 4 days of nothing but charging, with no use of the Xantrex in between to get it full, assuming it was empty when you started. And if you are using ANY of the energy from the panels, then you either take much longer, or possibly lose ground.
As I said above, filling the Xantrex from a solar panel is like using a soda straw. The problem is that you can empty the Xantrex at a rate equivalent to using a garden hose.
And so, as I have layed out before for other people, the Xantrex is just the bucket that lets you accumulate and store electricity in. if you are using it faster than you can refill the bucket, you eventually end up with an empty bucket no matter how clever we are. So what we really need to do is to understand how much electricity you need every day to support your needs, and then we need to size the solar panels or generating system to provide at least that much energy, plus a bit more. Remember, the Xantrex does not Generate anything, it is merely a storage vessel that lets you roll around with a tank full of electricity. You still need to keep the tank topped off.
So the first thing you need to do is to seriously sit down, figure out just what you are going to plug into your Xantrex that consumes power, figure out how much power the units consume, and then how many hours per day you will be planning on using them. Once we get to that point, we can figure out just how much solar (or other) energy we actually need, and then figure out what needs to be bought.
If we go through this one step at a time, you won’t be in the sotuation of having spent all of your money and ending up with a system that doesn’t really help anyway.
Comment on running a freezer/fridge from a xantrex-type system: The thermostat unit pulls power while the f/f is off. The inverter pulls power even when nothing is running. You can’t run the thermostat withour running the inverter. You have to look for the little power-suckers that invisibly drain your batteries when running the system.
NOGoddess – at 22:16
The 2 smaller Xantrex made (Canadian Tire brand) is like this one here:
It comes with air compressor and booster cable. If no pandemic ever hits, I will leave one in each car for emergency roadside use.
It comes with 20Ah battery, and I plan to run it down to no more than 50% and need 10Ah generating capacity to recharge it.
This may or may not suit your needs. Please follow Eccles step by step.
> Laptop power consumption
My Dell laptop power supply states “90 watts” on the label, though I average about 18 watts when I hook it up to my watt meter, so the 90 watt rating must be a peak rating, not an average.
> Charging a battery and drawing a load from an inverter simultaneously
This is done all the time. For example, if you have a panel putting out 45 watts, with a laptop drawing 18 watts, the remaining 27 or so watts (before losses) would be used to charge the battery (if it was not at full charge).
My Dell laptop uses 23 watts according to my Kill-A-Meter. However, the DSL modem and wireless router bump the total usage up to 68 watts.
Will – at 12:08
“Charging a battery and drawing a load from an inverter simultaneously
This is done all the time. “
The Xantrex 400 manual has a specific caution (about AC charging):
“Do not operate AC or DC appliances while the Xantrex is being rechraged with the AC Charger. The AC Charger may be permanently damaged if AC appliances or 12V DC appliances are operated while the AC Charger is connected.”
This unit comes with a barrel connector to connect the solar panel instead of the AC Charger to the back of the unit. I would think the same Caution applies.
Based on what you said, it may be possible to use a splitter on the front DC outlet, and connect both the solar panel and the appliance to the DC outlet. However, this may mean that the low battery power warning may not be activated (only works if the AC inverter is turned on) and for lay people like us, we run the risk of running the battery too low and destroy it.
Hey Guys - Thanks for responding… sorry I was absent for a bit - LOL, the power went out ;) That still happens here on a fairly regular basis, at least these days it’s mostly for an hour or two and not a day or two.
OK, it’s good to know I can’t recharge the Xantrex while using it. This does lead to considering a couple of smaller units.
Eccles, the reason I wanted to know about charging while using - the available source for charging would be the sun, except perhaps during supply runs when we could charge it from our van. But I’m trying to plan for total unavailability of gasoline. I’ll try to explain better what I mentioned above - OK, last year after the hurricane, we were under martial law with a 6pm curfew - meaning you could not leave your house after 6pm or you risked being arrested. So in order for our power system to be useful to other people that might be in the city. I figure more people will be prepared with generators than last year, but most will get gasoline powered generators, not thinking of how hard it’s going to be to get gas - especially with more people running generators. And while it got easier over time to get gas, we were without power for 3 months in my neighborhood (and continuing frequent outages since then). So anyways, in order to help others recharge equipment, etc., the power needs to be available during daylight hours - the same time that the charging source (ie sun) is available.
Anyway, I will sit down and try to calculate to the best of my ability what we would need to run and the power load each draws, but at best it’s only going to be a rough estimate as I will be dealing not just with my own personal equipment, but other people showing up with their computers, cell phones, etc. But I’m sure I can figure out a minimum and then depending on the costs of being able to support that - and then ‘upgrade’ to whatever I can afford to account for undetermined usage by others.
It does sound like a couple of smaller portable units might make more sense….
OK, let me get to calculating and I’ll get back to you. Thanks so much for your help! Hopefully I can offer some helpful advice in return on the wiki after our experiences last summer (and ongoing)!
Oh, and I do have a 12 volt auto adapter…. 3 of them, actually ;) Anytime anyone drove anywhere last summer they were sent off with a bevy of things to charge ;)
NOGoddess- Your experiences in an actual disaster zone are invaluable to the rest of us. I’m sure you are aware they make multiple cigarette lighter outlet bars for charging multiple things at once in your vehicle. Are you using those?
Well, it’s good to know that some positive things come out of this whole mess ;) I can say, don’t expect help from any official agencies unless you are part of a government agency (nothing like walking by the huge ‘Incident Catering Services’ tent serving up barbecued shrimp and the likes to FEMA folks while citizens were being denied food and water). Not to say that would be the case with a major flu pandemic, but aside from intentional government nonsense, just as with a hurricane, there’s a good chance that a lot of critical infrastructures could go down if there was an large pandemic. Anyways, I’m sure I don’t really need to tell you guys that… but yes, I do know a lot about surviving on very little at this point, and we will be much better prepared this summer - as whether or not we have any kind of repeat of last year, considering our power still goes out with a mere few drops of rain, any kind of summer storm could put us off the grid for awhile.
Anyways, no, I didn’t know they made multiple cigarette lighter outlet bars - not quite sure how that works, guess I should go google it. We just hooked up a power strip to the adapter and plugged whatever we could into that.
NOGoddess- here is a Link to show you a picture of one such a device. it just lets you plu in multiple 12v devices to the same cigarette lighter socket. I have seen them in two-sies, three-sies and four-sies. I have seen some at dollar sotres, but I’ll bet the quality is pretty low on those.
Ah, that looks like a handy thing and not expensive at all - I’ll pick up a few, as there were a few folks that for one reason or another only had their car adapters for their cell phones, etc. Can’t hurt for the price ;)
Working on my list…
Anon-xyz: “Charging a battery and drawing a load from an inverter simultaneously - This is done all the time. “
> The Xantrex 400 manual has a specific caution (about AC charging)
As does the 1500 manual. I had thought we were referring to the inverter/charger line (which has a 1500 product). An Xpowerpack belongs to another line altogether.
I would have serious reservations about not being able to power loads while the powerpack is being charged, as the charging could go on throughout the daylight hours. One could unplug the solar panel if the wanted to use the system for a short period of time, then plug the panel back in, though if you slip up once you could damage the unit. There are other small solar package systems on the market that do not have such limitations.
OK, I’ve got some stuff together here.
PREFER TO BE ABLE TO USE EVERY DAY:
Apple Laptop, 50 Watts, 1–2 hours = max 100 watts Navini Modem (if the connection actually works), 72 Watts, 1–2 hours a day = max 150 watts
If possible, 1–2 other laptops used simultaneously (can share the internet connection through my mac, so router is not necessary) Will estimate 50 Watts x 2, 1–2 hours (all laptops may not need to be running off the system, tho, as we can stagger laptop battery recharging and run some off battery power) = max 200 watts
Box Fan, 100 Watts, 3–4 hours a day (or as much as possible!) = max 400 watts Lamp with 18 watt compact fluorescent bulb, 18 watts, 3–4 hours a day/night = 72 watts
OCCASSIONAL (EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS):
Printer/Scanner Copier, 50 watts, 1/2 hour = max 25 watts Video Camera Charger, 18 watts, 4–5 hours = max 90 watts Cell Phone Charging, 10 watts, 4–5 hours = max 50 watts
OPTIONAL: Small TV + Rabbit Ears, 75 watts, 2 hours = 150 watts Power Drill/Tool Charger, 15 watts, 4 hours = 60 watts
That should about cover it… I have a handcrank/solar radio & am getting handcrank cell phone chargers as backup if we don’t want to use up the solar generated power. We have a lot of other things that run off of various batteries (flashlights, lanterns, digital camera, etc.) so being able to recharge batteries is a priority - but I’m thinking it’s better to get a stand alone solar battery charger.
Everything above is flexible, obviously…. it would be nice to be able to get online for a couple of hours a day (provided my broadband service still works), but even if it was only every few days, that’s much better than never. Just realized I didn’t figure in some things like walkie talkies, but we can always limit usage for certain things some days and dedicate the system to recharging necessary items. Priority #1 is being able to maintain communication with the outside world - after Katrina, we were pretty much cut off from the outside world and that sucked (well, that was partly due to Verizon selling me the wrong EVDO card and several other snafus that were hard to deal with when you’ve got to sneak in and out of a city!).
Let me know if I need to provide more info… thanks so much for helping! The sooner I can get this in gear the better - ironically, we just got through with our 2nd power outage of the day and I’m sick of having to stop work (I work at home online) every time I turn around!
OK, I’ve got some stuff together here.
PREFER TO BE ABLE TO USE EVERY DAY:
Apple Laptop, 50 Watts, 1–2 hours = max 100 watts Navini Modem (if the connection actually works), 72 Watts, 1–2 hours a day = max 150 watts
If possible, 1–2 other laptops used simultaneously (can share the internet connection through my mac, so router is not necessary) Will estimate 50 Watts x 2, 1–2 hours (all laptops may not need to be running off the system, tho, as we can stagger laptop battery recharging and run some off battery power) = max 200 watts
Box Fan, 100 Watts, 3–4 hours a day (or as much as possible!) = max 400 watts Lamp with 18 watt compact fluorescent bulb, 18 watts, 3–4 hours a day/night = 72 watts
OCCASSIONAL (EVERY COUPLE OF DAYS):
Printer/Scanner Copier, 50 watts, 1/2 hour = max 25 watts Video Camera Charger, 18 watts, 4–5 hours = max 90 watts Cell Phone Charging, 10 watts, 4–5 hours = max 50 watts
OPTIONAL: Small TV + Rabbit Ears, 75 watts, 2 hours = 150 watts Power Drill/Tool Charger, 15 watts, 4 hours = 60 watts
That should about cover it… I have a handcrank/solar radio & am getting handcrank cell phone chargers as backup if we don’t want to use up the solar generated power. We have a lot of other things that run off of various batteries (flashlights, lanterns, digital camera, etc.) so being able to recharge batteries is a priority - but I’m thinking it’s better to get a stand alone solar battery charger.
Everything above is flexible, obviously…. it would be nice to be able to get online for a couple of hours a day (provided my broadband service still works), but even if it was only every few days, that’s much better than never. Just realized I didn’t figure in some things like walkie talkies, but we can always limit usage for certain things some days and dedicate the system to recharging necessary items. Priority #1 is being able to maintain communication with the outside world - after Katrina, we were pretty much cut off from the outside world and that sucked (well, that was partly due to Verizon selling me the wrong EVDO card and several other snafus that were hard to deal with when you’ve got to sneak in and out of a city!).
Let me know if I need to provide more info… thanks so much for helping! The sooner I can get this in gear the better - ironically, we just got through with our 2nd power outage of the day and I’m sick of having to stop work (I work at home online) every time I turn around!
NOGoddess- Pardon the delay in getting back to you. I was down with a touch of something last night, but now I am again upright on my hind legs, so let’s go.
I am not sure you (or most readers here) truly understand just how little electricity you actually get from an affordable solar panel. So I will work a couple of numbers for you here, and if I haven’t lost you, then we can do another round to cost out how much panel it will take to support all of the “Gotta’s”, “Wanna’s” and “Howzabouts” you listed above.
If we start with a very simple requirement, which is just to run your Apple Laptop and Modem for 2 hours per day, we can work the numbers.
But we’re not done here. Since we must also allow for inefficiencies in the inverter system, we need to multiply the above number by about 10 percent.
And yet we’re still not done. There are, unfortunately, inefficiencies in recharging your storage battery as well. We need to allow about 15% for charging losses from the solar panel to the storage battery.
Now, since you are in sunny Louisiana, and it is summer, lets go wild and say you can get 8 hours per day of full sunlight. That would mean that we need to generate 38 watts per hour to achieve the power budget outlined above. There is one more piece of this puzzle you also need to hear.
Thus, it would appear that, at the very minimum, you will need a 45 watt panel or array just to keep the laptop and modem running for 2 hours every day. If you expect to operate on days when there is less than full sun, or days when it is overcast all day, then you need to produce more power than you’re burning. That would move us up to a minimum of 60 watts of panel.
While prices are variable, and I’m sure all of our colleagues have their own bargain suppliers or source of cheaper panels, it looks like we are talking somewhere between %350 and $500 in panels and charge controller to provide enough charging to support the Xantrex to run your laptop and modem for a couple of hours.
And remember, ths was assuming a generous charging time. During the winter, days are shorter and you won’t get enough hours of sun to get the full amount we are planning on here.
If you would like, we can start looking at what the rest of your list will take to run, but what I have given you is a good template to pursue your own numbers.
I hope this helps you and others who are looking to see what such an approach actually costs.
And as always, I encourage my colleagues here to correct or amplify my comments. Please though, since we are dealing with beginners, don’t just throw a reference to this piece or that price over the fence without explaining fully what it does and hwo it helps. otherwise it just confuses things.
Dang Eccles…Another starry-eyed potential solar customer brought back to earth.
No offense NOGoddess, My “pedal-to-refill-the-battery-bank” idea was even more “blue-sky”, not to mention crushingly expensive and inefficent. If this were cheap and easy we would all be doing something besides paying a monthly bill.
HBB- Kind of reminds me of an encounter I had years ago (in the 1970′s)at Lafayette Electronics in Manhattan (NY). I was standing in line with a guy who described to me how he had come up with an idea that would revolutionize the electric car (this being the time of the energy crisis), and he was there buying parts for the prototype.
He went on to describe how he was going to drive a generator from the front wheels while pushing the car with motors from the back wheels, thus charging the batteries up while driving. I tried to explain to him that this wouldn’t work since the generators would load the motors more than the energy they produced, getting him nowhere. He pronounced me another one of those doubters, and told me to just wait. the Hubblemobile would be a household word and he would be rich.
I guess its taking him just a little longer to figure out how to overcome the laws of conservation on energy. I think I have just figured it all out, but first, I need to patent perpetual motion.
Eccles: Great explanation. It took me several months to come to terms living on solar power with these realities. We are very comfortable now, years later with a 1200 watt solar system(input)but we have gotten wayyyy into conservation. No magic; it is like dieting- an energy in/energy out equation. The difference it that you want to keep the batery bank “fat” if possible! Kelly
“ I think I have just figured it all out, but first, I need to patent perpetual motion.”
Ahh, sounds like the idea I had about a spinning flywheel that would generate loads of electricity. The flywheel turns quite fast because it is inside a containment field that selectively suspends gravity, thus using the revolution of the earth, or the earth around the sun, whichever works best, to provide the motion. I’m still working out the math on that point. My initial requests for a patent have not yet produced a response. I built a test model, but when I powered it up, it flew into space and may have punched a hole through Neptune. The devil is in the details.
Hi Eccles - No need for apologies, I really appreciate your help! Hope you are feeling better today.
Thanks for your clear explanation - you’ve given me a good enough grasp of the situation to at least not end up in a situation where I think I’ve provided myself with a good backup system only to find out when I most need it that it won’t cut the muster :) I was aware from the beginning that choosing solar would mean limitations, but didn’t realize quite how much. That said, I’m still going to get what I can afford, but try to do something that will be expandable as we add on. Sounds like we’ll still need to get a gas powered generator for this summer, just in case, but even if we have to be very selective about usage of the solar system, at least we will have a little bit of energy available that isn’t dependant on gasoline. We didn’t have any kind of generator here for several weeks after Katrina - well, we did, but since we’d snuck back into the city with supplies to do relief work, the generators we first brought in were given to grassroots relief efforts. Even after we got our own generator, we used it as little as possible, and it was a couple of months before power came back on. And since then, to this day, we’ve still only got several working outlets in a very large house - so believe me, using little power and having to juggle things/make choices is not a big deal at this point!
But now that you guys have helped me understand things better, I think I can at least get started down the solar path - hurricanes and pandemics aside, we aim to get our house off the grid as much as possible in general. 8 hours a day of sun in Louisiana is not a stretch (except for Hurricane Rita, there wasn’t a cloud in the sky for months after Katrina), so we should be able to maximize what we are able to put together;)
Thanks again for your help. I’m sure I’ll be back with more questions ;) this is a great board and I’m learning a lot!
I, too, have struggled trying to justify a small solar electrical system. I can only justify one if I assume TEOTWAWKI. I’m just not to that stage of concern.
I dearly want to power a least a small bedside fan during a summertime power failure. My Katrina experience identified this need. Operating even a small generator for this purpose is extremely inefficient. A large deep-cycle battery and a small inverter will handle this chore just fine.
The most efficient means of charging the deep-cycle battery is 12V to 12V…and my generator will provide the 12V that I need. Jumper cables to the truck can serve as back-up. I’m still working on calculating the minimum run times for the generator.
After readings posts here on the forum, I think I need a back-up deep-cycle battery or two, figuring I’ll probably abuse and trash at least one.
The concept of electricity from the sun is very appealing. The realities of its limitations and cost send me back to planning to burn more fossil fuels.
NOGoddess- Glad we could help. There’s a great bunch of knowledgeable folks on this Wiki about almost everything.
In the meantime, I haven’t cleaned your windshield yet. it comes as part of the whole “Service with a Smile” package.
LOL, Eccles, I’ll let you know as soon as the van is out of the shop ;)
Tall in MS - I may go a similar route since it looks like we’ll be getting a gas powered generator after all. I agree about the generator inefficiency, but a battery system like you are talking about - that I can also charge with whatever solar I can afford - would be optimum at this point. We’ll see!
NOGoddess – at 11:21 Some of the smaller “camping style” generators from Coleman or Honda are relatively quiet and very fuel efficient. You don’t need a big generator for what you have listed.
Tall,
Fans are my main concern after water here in S. FL.
I was looking at this:
http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/appliancDC2.htm
It’s a little pricey but not unreasonable compared to 110v fans at Home Depot or Lowes. And when you figure that you can skip the inverter I think it is probably cheaper than using 110v fans. At 1amp I could run two of them for 7 hours approximately for each hour I run my generator and put 15amps back into a battery. So if I run my generator 2 hours a day to pump water than I can get approximately 14 hours with two fans. And yes I know batteries charge at different rates depending on how empty/full they are, these are approximates.
There is also a ceiling fan that draws less power but I don’t want to replace my ceiling fans and rerun at the wiring at the moment.
Hillbilly Bill - Yes, I will be looking at the smallest possible generators! After Katrina there wasn’t much choice in the matter - when we started gathering supplies to bring back into the city out in Waco, TX where we’d ended up, there were only two generators left in town! And we only found one a few weeks later for our house by a stroke of luck - happened to walk into Home Depot as a delivery came in. Unfortunately, they were higher capacity generators and cost a small fortune. Was appreciated by the folks who got it after our power came back on - they were able to run several households off of it ;)
What’s the smallest, most fuel efficient gen I can buy? Did they make gens as small as 500 watts?
nopower – at 11:29 - The 12V fans are very interesting. I’ve bookmarked that link for further study. Thanks!
And, I like Np1′s diet analogy. If during my two hours (or so) of daily generator operation I have additional charging capacity, a fat set of batteries could extend round-the-clock capabilities considerably.
Watch Dog- Honda and yamaha both make small (700–1000 watt) generators that are very quiet, very fuel efficient, and not very cheap.
There is, at this moment a sale at northern Tool for a small (1000 watt) generator that runs on a 60 cc 2-cycle engine for $150. I suspect it would sound like a chain saw, but I have never actually used or seen one.
Thank you.
All I need is 300 to 500 watts per hour so either the honda or yamaha should be perfect for me. This sounds like a better way to go than using my 6000 watt gen to charge battery banks.
I love my solar array to be quite honest. No noise, no gas, no problem. Runs all the time, when I need it. Everything on the house is on it. Whoever says its useless is living in the past. I gave up generators years ago. What a futile, if not infantile device, and the damned thing doesnt even put out a real sign wave…Go ahead a hook up your variable speed devices to it and watch them cook!!! Also, maybe you dont realize this, but for the next two years, in the entire country you get a tax credit. If you like gas, oil, noise, smoke…er, did I say noise, go for the generator. Yep, go ahead and continue to pollute the rest of us. And when its all over, put the generator back in the garage and let er’ sit there…unused. What a waste of money.
me – at 12:53 From your post I doubt you have ever been through a major snow event or an ice storm. Gosh, I get tired of saying this, solar is NOT the answer for everybody’s situation.
Me- I’m happy that your solar installation is working out so well for you. There are, however uses for hydrocarbon powered gensets as well. Not everyone has the finincial capabilities or real-estate to put in a full solar system, and most folks do not have the appliances or life style which would allow them to transition over to a solar based system quickly.
The purpose of the recent discussions on this thread is to assist folks in making some provision to have enough power to support minimal needs, based on their own circumstance.
Would you have anything constructive to add to this discussion which will help folks achieve that minimal stand-by capability cheaply, quickly and without extensive engineering and construction projects?
me – at 12:53 - It’s a beautiful thought: Father Sun giving us all the power we need. It’s just the initial investment that’s a bit overwhelming in the scramble to get as ready as possible quickly.
I’m thinking of building a new home in the next few years and will seriously consider the dream that you’ve realized. I applaud you. I envy you. I’m just a tad short-sighted right now. I want contingency plans for tomorrow and next week.
Bill, Neither are generators. I’ve been through numerous events, believe me. Thats why solar. Nobody is asking you to defend generators, especially not me. There are misconceptions to solar, and you seem to have a certain mindset about solar. Just understand, as others who are considering generators should, they are expensive, pollute horrendesly, and dangerous…period. You can have the generator, but while you’re pulling that damned cord and cooking your devices, think of me…whose not. I would never tell people who do not understand electricity, codes, etc who are looking for alternative power to go out and get one of those things. You are obviously NOT on the cutting edge or understand what a generator can or cannot do.
“achieve that minimal stand-by capability cheaply, quickly”
This is me. If I buy the 1000 watt honda gen for $700 and $300 of fuel, I can have 225 watts of power per hour (on average) for 10 hours a day, for 85 days straight.
All I have to spend on power is $1000 so is there another way to spend it better?
me – at 13:04 I do not have misconceptions about solar power, I just happen to live in a location that makes it ENTIRELY unpractical. Please don’t haul out a chart and tell me that every part of the U.S. receives enough sunlight to make solar practical. My house and yard are shaded heavily and the trees providing the shade are not being removed.
I understand perfectly what a generator can and cannot do. It can convert the chemical energy of a fuel like gasoline into electrical energy to power appliances in my house, like my furnace. It cannot be a viable source of permanent energy, and I am not asking it to do that.
Exactly how do you know who understands “electricity, codes, etc.”? I have rewired my entire house and may have possibly stripped more wire in my life than you have seen.
Let’s not even digress into who has the larger carbon footprint, that is not what this forum is about.
Eccles, I appreciate your open-mindedness. I agree, solar can be a bit daunting…both financially and in an engineering sense. As far as those who cannot afford solar, I would do a ton of research before ever buying a generator and understand its limitations. It is nothing to play with. There is not such thing as an “easy” or “simple” power source that does not have risks. But a generator has huge risks…and it takes knowledge about the device to prevent serious injury…or worse. I engineered and installed my own solar system, and I live in the north. Its not perfect, but it works well. When advising non-technical people to get a generator its a mistake not to tell them about the pitfalls…the dangers and the limitations. Thats why I make it clear that it produces a modified sig-wave…not good for all A.C. devices. Variable speed devices, WILL be destroyed. Trust me. And Generators must be run at 80% load…on both balanced 110v legs if back-fed into a dwelling. When advising novices on generators, we have a responsibility to really, really, really, educate them first. Im adamant about this. Electricity is unforgiving. The worse is death…the best is a well done afro.
Me- Think of me…who’s not - So, what exactly will thinking of you do to benefit anyone who is stuck in a Shelter-in-Place situation and in need of enough power to run some small items or to get some refrigeration.
You are obviously NOT on the cutting edge or understand what a generator can or cannot do
Would you care to rephrase that? Or would you rather go one-on-one point-by-point with me on generators or any other technological subject you care to discuss?
One on one is fine. Lets go.
me – at 13:22 I’ll back out of this and let Eccles take you apart piece by piece. You know not of whom you are challenging.
An interesting thread from another forum:
Most perceived “regulator problems frying folks equipment” are due to folks bullheaded nature, ie duffus factor, ie goober factor, ie jackleg factor.
A jackleg cord settup is used, and a cord gets tripped, and as we Electrical engineers call “A worst case load dump occurs”. In lay terms this is basically when one unplugs a loaded circuit, and the side with load is still on for a fraction of a second. With a worst case load dump the load usually is at maximum “wattage or KVA”, with alot of inductive stuff in the load, with little resistive loads or none. Here the load dump has current still flowing for a few AC cycles, and there is a huge voltage spike, sometimes over a thousand volts. This huge voltage spike can pop thru many electical gears circuits, unless built for such abuse, ie made goober proof. A worst case load dump can also happen when one unplugs a large inductive load from the regular house AC mains. It just happens radically more with a temporary generator settup, unless one has an electrical engineer the dictate proper settups.
With a portable generator, there is radically a greater risk of a cord becoming unplugged, than a studio situation. IF the 120/240 cord comes just abit loose from the generator, the neutral many times floats. In this situtation, one leg of the 120 volt line might go to 190; the other to say 50 volts, the sum of the two legs still 240 volts. In investigating damaged equipment due the to lay publics jack leg factor, the engineer usually finds all the failed items are on one 120 volt leg , thus the dufuss operator who bought a cheapie not too secure twist connector for his 240v alternator made a poor bet with a cheap cord. This is Darwin in action, but folks love to blame the generator due to their egos.
With an older alternator or one that is real wet, an ungrounded unit may float above ground. Here the chap sometimes have a case somewhat grounded thru the earth.
Sometimes the lay public purposely doesnt want to ground the alternator, to make the sick leaky field winding last longer. This poses a problem for the professional electrical engineer like me, since we would be liable for being around a typical jackleg situation with no grounding, poor too small cords, flakey twist lock connectors to the alternator.
At my summer house in Katrina land the Generac’s are far cleaner an AC source than the AC mains. There is no neighbors AC unit which has 180 lock rotor amps to yank the pole transformer around. There is no neighbors arc welder with trashy crap on the AC lines. We ran for several weeks off the Generacs, running ham radios, TV’s, computters, running electric chain saws, running skill saws, changing batteries, charging flashes, burning CD’s,.
Believe it or not many folks died after Katrina by doing dumb lay stuff like running a generator indoors, or in a garage, and died of carbon monoxide.
Also some lay folks got electrocuted by jackleg non grounding, or just elecrocuted by dealing with 120 volts in a salt flooded house with week old wet salty shoes.
Also some folks got the classical “120/240 volt cord vibrated out of the alternators socket” problem, and one leg of the houses stuff got fried.
Then there is the classical gasoline fires caused by filling a generator too.
This is a totally bizzare thread; the Genarac went competely under saltwater during Katrina in the summer home, I removed the carb and drained out the salt water, got it to start and cut all the fallen trees out of the road with an elecric chain saw. The first Police that came by were from Muncie Indiana days later. I ran all this sensistive electronic ham gear and computer gear after the Hurricane for 3 weeks, and now learn via Photo.net that my generator should have a trashy square wave. It appears maybe some folks might have skipped EE1001. :)
There really should be any spikes off an alternator if you by a decent one. If you have an old one with alot of hours on it, check to see if the rotor brushes are worn out, or if the slip rings are nicked.
Sorry, I can’t let this go. “back-fed into a dwelling”? And you are going to educate novices on safe use of generators?
“And Generators must be run at 80% load” The Honda EU1000i doesn’t
“Thats why I make it clear that it produces a modified sig-wave” The Honda EU100i doesn’t have this problem
Why do you talk in absolutes?
This is the EU100i:
This super quiet generator is extremely portable (at only 29 lbs.) as well as fuel efficient, running up to 8.3 hours on a single tank of gas when used with the Eco-Throttle feature. This easy starting generator produces only 59dB of sound at 7 meters running at full load, which is less than common speech. The Honda Inverter Technology makes this generator ideally suited for use with sensitive electronics (e.g., computer, printer, and other sensitive electronic equipment) because the generator produces a clean sine wave of energy that prevents surging. To prevent any possible damage to the unit, the Oil Alert will shut the unit off when the oil drops below a safe operating level. The unit also has a DC terminal for use when charging 12-volt automotive type batteries. The available power is commonly used for the following typical electric device:
• Fans, TV, Radios • Small Power Tools i.e. 1/4″ drill • Small Kitchen Appliances (i.e. Blender)
Two like EU series generators can be linked in parallel to increase available wattage through the generator
Nope, not my job. Lots of people “back-feed” into their panel. Actually, I wish we could bring the “dead ones” back to educate the novices. They could do a far better job than I…20/20 hindsight is perfect.
Nope, not my job. Lots of people “back-feed” into their panel. Actually, I wish we could bring the “dead ones” back to educate the novices. They could do a far better job than I…20/20 hindsight is perfect. I can’t let this go either:
CPSC Home > Publications > Current Consumer Product Safety Commission Safety Alert Portable Generator Hazards Portable generators are useful when temporary or remote electric power is needed, but they also can be hazardous. The primary hazards to avoid when using a generator are carbon monoxide (CO) poisoning from the toxic engine exhaust, electric shock or electrocution, and fire. Every year, people die in incidents related to portable generator use. Most of the incidents associated with portable generators reported to CPSC involve CO poisoning from generators used indoors or in partially-enclosed spaces.
Carbon Monoxide Hazards
NEVER use a generator in enclosed or partially-enclosed spaces. Generators can produce high levels of CO very quickly. When you use a portable generator, remember that you cannot smell or see CO. Even if you can’t smell exhaust fumes, you may still be exposed to CO.
If you start to feel sick, dizzy, or weak while using a generator, get to fresh air RIGHT AWAY. DO NOT DELAY. The CO from generators can rapidly lead to full incapacitation and death.
If you experience serious symptoms, get medical attention immediately. Inform medical staff that CO poisoning is suspected. If you experienced symptoms while indoors, have someone call the fire department to determine when it is safe to re-enter the building.
Follow these safety tips to protect against CO poisoning:
NEVER use a generator indoors, including in homes, garages, basements, crawl spaces, and other enclosed or partially-enclosed areas, even with ventilation. Opening doors and windows or using fans will not prevent CO build-up in the home.
Follow the instructions that come with your generator. Locate the unit outdoors and away from doors, windows, and vents that could allow CO to come indoors.
Install battery-operated CO alarms or plug-in CO alarms with battery back-up in your home, according to the manufacturer’s installation instructions. The CO alarms should be certified to the requirements of the latest safety standards for CO alarms (UL 2034, IAS 6–96, or CSA 6.19.01).
Test your CO alarms frequently and replace dead batteries. Electrical Hazards
Follow these tips to protect against shock and electrocution:
Keep the generator dry and do not use in rain or wet conditions. To protect from moisture, operate it on a dry surface under an open, canopy-like structure. Dry your hands if wet before touching the generator.
Plug appliances directly into the generator. Or, use a heavy duty, outdoor-rated extension cord that is rated (in watts or amps) at least equal to the sum of the connected appliance loads. Check that the entire cord is free of cuts or tears and that the plug has all three prongs, especially a grounding pin.
NEVER try to power the house wiring by plugging the generator into a wall outlet, a practice known as “backfeeding.” This is an extremely dangerous practice that presents an electrocution risk to utility workers and neighbors served by the same utility transformer. It also bypasses some of the built-in household circuit protection devices.
If you must connect the generator to the house wiring to power appliances, have a qualified electrician install the appropriate equipment in accordance with local electrical codes. Or, check with your utility company to see if it can install an appropriate power transfer switch.
For power outages, permanently installed stationary generators are better suited for providing backup power to the home. Even a properly connected portable generator can become overloaded. This may result in overheating or stressing the generator components, possibly leading to a generator failure. Fire Hazards
Follow these tips to prevent fires:
Never store fuel for your generator in the home. Gasoline, propane, kerosene, and other flammable liquids should be stored outside of living areas in properly-labeled, non-glass safety containers. Do not store them near a fuel-burning appliance, such as a natural gas water heater in a garage. If the fuel is spilled or the container is not sealed properly, invisible vapors from the fuel can travel along the ground and can be ignited by the appliance’s pilot light or by arcs from electric switches in the appliance.
Before refueling the generator, turn it off and let it cool down. Gasoline spilled on hot engine parts could ignite. ---
Send the link for this page to a friend! Consumers can obtain this publication and additional publication information from the Publications section of CPSC’s web site or by sending your publication request to info@cpsc.gov.
This document is in the public domain. It may be reproduced without change in part or whole by an individual or organization without permission. If it is reproduced, however, the Commission would appreciate knowing how it is used. Write the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission, Office of Information and Public Affairs, 4330 East West Highway, Bethesda, MD 20814 or send an e-mail to info@cpsc.gov.
The U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission is charged with protecting the public from unreasonable risks of serious injury or death from more than 15,000 types of consumer products under the agency’s jurisdiction. Deaths, injuries and property damage from consumer product incidents cost the nation more than $700 billion annually. The CPSC is committed to protecting consumers and families from products that pose a fire, electrical, chemical, or mechanical hazard or can injure children. The CPSC’s work to ensure the safety of consumer products - such as toys, cribs, power tools, cigarette lighters, and household chemicals - contributed significantly to the 30 percent decline in the rate of deaths and injuries associated with consumer products over the past 30 years.
To report a dangerous product or a product-related injury, call CPSC’s hotline at (800) 638–2772 or CPSC’s teletypewriter at (800) 638–8270, or visit CPSC’s web site at www.cpsc.gov/talk.html. To join a CPSC email subscription list, please go to www.cpsc.gov/cpsclist.asp. Consumers can obtain this release and recall information at CPSC’s Web site at www.cpsc.gov.
Consumer Safety (Home) | About CPSC | Library | Business
me – at 13:40 - Nope, not my job.
I did have a little respect for you. Now I don’t. If you don’t have anything to contribute, please just lurk. Or go away.
Unfortunate and irresponsible response. Im trying to contribute here. Im trying to help you and other “less informed” maybe “desperate” people understand whats involved with generators. YOU may understand them, as other knowledgable individuals claim here, but NOT the general public. Who here would let their wives go and “hook-up” their generators? Huh? You can respect me or not, thats irrelevant, but the facts speak for themselves. for those who are desperate, who fear being without electricity for their refrigerators, Tv’s computers, etc. you may have to do without. Trying to bring the 21st century into the stone age will be difficult at best if not impossible. I saw the lack of “real” information on the dangers of generators, tried to advise, and I was threatened to a dual in the street with the local expert as if Im trying to upstage this person. Nice. Sorry to have wasted your bandwith.
Me- And I’m sorry everyone in the world but you are bullheaded goobers, dufuses and jackleg tinkerers. We’ll try to do better for the next pandemic, but this time around, we’re all we have. Unless you’d like to come out and supervise each and every electrical installation that folks need to rig during an extended loss of utilities.
So the solution to generator safety is to not own one?
“Who here would let their wives go and “hook-up” their generators?”
And generators are not for women?
Watch Dog – at 14:20 - In one self-professed expert’s opinion at least, but that is not my viewpoint. I prefer to use techonolgy rather than fear it.
You know, I would love to have a solar system but that’s just not possible right now. And I’m sure I would be very proud of it too!
So, I’m afraid all I saw of this feller was statements of how dangerous generators and how smart he is. Not much to deal with there. Perhaps the only ting I can contribute is to suggest to ME that he try to get over himself.
I take safety very seriously so give me solutions and i will go get it done. I come to fluwiki for answeres, not road blocks. Thank you to all that have helped me out so much. It’s times like this that I realize how great the people are here.
Anyhow, I thought this thread was about “Solar” What could I have possibly been thinking? So why do those who promote gasoline generators come to a thread about Solar generators and lambaste those who promote solar? Maybe you should start your own thread about gasoline generators? Sounds like you people would be much happier there.
I would be happy to contribute any info I can to those who are willing to listen about solar.
me – at 14:39 Actually we began discussing using a generator to recharge a battery bank for NOGoddess after she discovered that what she could afford of a solar system would be INADEQUATE to supply her modest energy needs.
I think you should start your own argument thread. Sounds like you would be much happier there.
I thought this was an Eccles thread? I guess I didn’t read to title correctly.
While my house is solar-powered, I believe that generators have a role in some situations, especially when shading or inadequate insolation issues predominate. The biggest problem to tackle first is lifestyle; how much power is truly needed, and how much is simply nice to have? And what is the bare minimum in an emergency? These should be the starting criteria.
If a solar solution might be viable, and people want to employ economies of scale, they could consider an extensible medium-sized system, especially if they are considering a larger-scale system later down the road. Just make sure to size the inverter, charger, and wiring to meet the higher wattage of a larger system. As grid-tie allows one to spin the electric meter backwards, the investment potential in solar starts to realize other benefits.
I’m impressed that some people are carefully budgetting their energy demands; this shows that Eccles, NP1, myself, and others are gatting through.
Of course, as people weigh their critieria, it is helpful to know that a power source that is feasible today in some situations (such as gasoline generators) may be much less feasible when Peak Oil occurs. So long term thinking can also be a factor in one’s decision making.
I back feed through my dryer plug every time we have an outage(ice storms usually). I’ve been doing it for years. All you have to do (common sense I think) is throw your main and disconnect yourself from the grid and turn off your breaker switches before you hook up your gen and run it. Then use the power panel to power share to the various appliances you need to run. Of cource you need to know how much wattage your appliances/circuits draw but if you pay attention to the basic rules you shouldn’t have a problem.
I would draw an anology to owning a firearm. When your home is invaded you better be familiar with how to use the thing or else you may well be a greater danger to you and yours than the bad guys.
Most people on the wikie (I hope) have enough smarts to know they need to learn about electricity (and guns) before they go messing with them.
This is Hillbilly Bill’s first response to my first post.
me – at 12:53 From your post I doubt you have ever been through a major snow event or an ice storm. Gosh, I get tired of saying this, solar is NOT the answer for everybody’s situation.
Very advisarial reply, dont you think? If solar is NOT the answer, why are you here and why waste your valuable time arguing with those who like solar. Hence, why I am in a thread entitled: Solar Generators for Dummys part II. Do you see the word SOLAR? Do you know the difference between SOLAR and GASOLINE? I dont think that unsolicited, Negative and unjustified comment was beneficial at all. Do you?
Ok, that did it for me. See everyone in a couple of hours. I got my fill.
Ciao.
Hi Buzz.
I dont know. Suddenly I got worn out. Bottom line, they are useful, but deserve respect and everyone needs to know how they function. Look up stories in the news about linemen getting killed when people forget to disconnect their generators when they are trying to fix the lines and they forget to throw the mains. Thats just one thing to consider. Buzz, I appreciate you trying to moderate, but suddenly I realize I may be in the wrong place.
I have been off grid for 18 years. I also installed and grew my own system. The overwhelling adive from solar professionals ( at least for off gridders ) is to have a high quality generator and use it as little as possible. Most off grid systems have generator backup. Extended cloudiness can cause excessive battery discharge and with a big, expensive battery bank this is not a good idea. I have lived lived on our system w/o generator backup and it limits flexibility. When I want to run my welder, esp for an extended period of time, I fire up the Honda.
Portable generators have been around for many years and have, just like chainsaws, gotten easier, safer, and more popular.
The American public is capable of using chainsaws, firearms or generators safely. Petro driven generators have a place, no matter what you or I think, and people should and do have that choise. Kelly
Boy, leave the house for a couple of hours to do laundry and lookee what’s going on!
Me, I came here for advice on getting some kind of solar backup system in preparation for hurricane season. These kind folks have helped me realize that while I may be able to afford a small solar system to power a few things, considering that hurricane season is here now, it might make the most sense for me to also get a small gas generator. Sure, I’d love to rig my whole house with a full blown solar system, but - and since you apparently are somewhere in Katrina land as well - um, with insurance payments barely beginning to trickle in 10 months after the storm, we don’t exactly have the funds to do that now. I’m trying to do my best with what little I have right now - I’m sure you can understand why saving up to get my roof fixed until homeowner’s coughs up the dough just might be more important to me right now than going fully solar. We are rebuilding our house to be as energy efficient as possible, with as many solar devices as possible, and with the capability of eventually getting the whole house off the grid.
Anyway, please appreciate the fact that many of us here are trying our best and you may not know everyone’s circumstances (though if you’d read through the thread you would have figured out my situation). I do appreciate your cautioning folks to be very careful with generators - I continue to watch far too many places burn down in my already damaged city. Believe me, we are very very careful.
One last thing I do have to mention - what’s up with the comment about what husband would send their wife out to hook up the generator? While both my husband and I are handy, and I happen to be the one that researches and learns how to handle most of the electrical stuff - he’s the one that cut through a live wire in the wall when we first bought our house a year ago.
OK, that’s my two cents worth ;)
I’m getting ready for a quick trip to FL to visit family, but will then be looking into the various suggested generators and whatever, albeit small, solar system I can afford. Thanks again everyone for the much needed help and advice.
NOGoddess – at 16:09 Check back when you can, I’m sure I speak for many here who have enjoyed your posts and we can all benifit from your experience.
This thread was started to help people out who may loose power. Some of us live off the grid using solar, wind or generators. Some here like Eccles are extreamly intelligent and this site is about helping people prepare for a possible pandemic not to argue what alternative power is better. Thank you, Jon
Thanks, Hillbilly Bill ;) Don’t worry, I’ll be checking in here plenty - am happy to share the things I’ve learned and maybe return a few favors ;) Just keep your fingers crossed we don’t bring anything back from Florida - last year my husband went down there in August and brought back Katrina. At least he also brought back a car we could evacuate in!
I decided that ultimately fuel reserves (personal and public)would dry up in a REAL pandemic so I went with portable flexible solar rolls from Brunton and another knock off Co. which I cant think of the name right now(got em from a marine equip. co.) for a total of 110 watts potentially. I went with golf cart batteries x 6 (so far) which I put into plastic marine battery containers (three fit into a single box with some room for padding). I bought several low drain LED and florecent bulbs and clamp on lamp holders. I got the Brunton solar controller and am currently (pun intended) working on getting the right gauge connection wire and quick disconnects. I figure for the “end of the line” senario this will work to provide enough for the laptop, evening lighting, portable radio and TV reception and charging of various handhelds and mobile phones etc.
Any input appreciated
MAV- sounds like a nice little set up. Would you be able to use a wind gen at your location? Down the road you could easally add one with little effort. We have been using a Southwest wind power AIR X for two year and actually get more power from it than our solar. Of course it is super windy here.
How much would a set up like that cost?
I really want to go the solar route.
guess I’ll add that one of the cool things about this set up is that it is very portable and flexible, literally. I can take one of the rolls and throw it in a day pack to power the laptop or radios directly or add a single golf cart battery for some indoor or evening reserve power. They can be put on the roof of the car or the lawn at home. I got a pair of the Black and Decker 400 watt inverters for this set up from Wally World and a Xantrex 750 in the truck which is hardwired for now.
I will say that a Honda EU 2000 (for its fuel efficiency and reliability) is definetly on the redundancy wish list though.
Yeh its windy here (7k elev, SW Rocky Mtns) but not ready for that investment yet. I did look and read a bit though. I’m still looking for some simple formulas for calculating battery capacity (is it just amp hrs?) and also a reliable method of testing system staus. ie? multimeter off the panels? etc, etc
400w 30 amp Air X is about $600 USD. All you need is a short pole. Ours is only 15 ft. The controller is built in.
400w 30 amp Air X is about $600 USD. All you need is a short pole. Ours is only 15 ft. The controller is built in. Just a thought for the future.
I have a solar question….not generators, but didn’t see another thread. My family will be SIP in mtns. & although we have fireplace, full tank of kerosene for heater etc. I was wondering if anyone had any experience with those solar fabric panels that attach to your sun facing windows/ glassdoors for extra heat?
The Brunton solar rolls (14 watt) were 300 ea, the larger output Brunton 25 watt arrays were also 300. the two rubberized marine ones I got were around 275. The batteries were $54 each, the controller was $26. The marine battery containers were 20ish. The B&D 400W inverters were about $50 I think, ,the Xantrex 750 was 129 if I remember right. Wire and connectors I figure I’ll spend another $30.
Not cheap but I wanted reliable- and fuel in this country and in my semi remote local is ANYTHING but reliable. Also, the system flexibility, being able to use individual components in any combination, and portability avail this sys to the probability of changing tactical situations.
jon c – at 19:21
I didnt see THAT set up! If you have a recomended dealer or web page I would still be interested-thanx
no, I have never heard of those, sorry. If you have windows facing sun you can put drums of water or oil painted flat black inside the cabin and they will absorb the heat and radiate it at night.
MAV- I am trying to find you a website. BRB Jon
Here is the website---http://tinyurl.com/oe8lb unfortunately I don’t have a clue about solar products. Hoped it might be an inexpensive way to help heat (even if only one bedroom). Would be great if any of you solar “in the know” people could take a peep (at your convenience) and report back to us real dummies. Thanks.
MAV- try www.windsun.com This is where I got mine. It is local for me. I am shure there is a dealer around you though
thanks, just found it too, $680, simple design looks like the controller and other electronics are included. Just add batteries. not bad for 400W. Although you do need 25mph wind to produce that. Wouldn’t be too hard where I live
By all, Start new job monday. No computer access. Will miss you all. BB- got my red wine flu killer. Good luck to everyone. I think it is coming. I am thinking about getting satalite service for computer I don’t own yet, but don’t hold your breath. Thanks for all your help! Jon C
jon c - have enjoyed your posts and insights! I sure hope you make it back soon. Thanks for being a part of the community.
JonC- if I haven’t missed you, lots of luck, and drop in when you can. BCNU.
JonC - You are probably gone, but will not be forgotten.
I like the idea of solar, but I do have one little question: what would a solar array look like after a hurricane?
Also, check out the store area of a large truck stop [or transport cafe, depending on your location]. They sell a lot of 12 volt DC powered gadgets. For 12 volt cables, connectors, and such, try
The solar panels from Brunton either roll up and only weigh about 11oz for the 14 watt or fold up and weigh about 2lbs for the 25 watt model very portable. I dont think a roof system would hold up in a high wind.
SIPCT – at 22:48 “I like the idea of solar, but I do have one little question: what would a solar array look like after a hurricane? “
Well, if it’s part of the roof …
That’s why I advocate small portable panels for emergency back up, not roof mounted.
>what would a solar array look like after a hurricane?
That depends on the strength of the hurricane and the quality of the mounting and roof. We went through Hurricane Isabel here in Virginia in 2003, though the eye wall missed us by about 40 miles or so. Things strewn everywhere, but no issues at all with the solar panels. We were a beacon at night for the next 3 nights while the rest of the area was out of power. Those with generators tended to run them continuously and usually ran out of gas in the first day or so.
I was looking at the xPower Power Pack 1500. It has a 60ah battery and it says that it would run 200 watts for two hours. What’s the math behind this?
I found 6 volt 225 ah batteries for $80. If I buy two and put them in series, then would my 12 volts have 450ah? Then would that mean that I could run 200 watts for 15 hours?
And then with a 40 amp charger or 40 amps from solar panels, how long would it take to charge the 450ah bateries?
Watch Dog- Pardon my brevity here, I’m currently running on a dial-up line as my DSL is out and Timmy the Wonder Help Desk Tech kept wanting me to take my LAN apart even though the problem is them.
First, the math behind 200 watts for 2 hours. There are three components to the apparent shortage of capacity. First, it is very damaging to any lead-acid type of battery to be discharged heavily. Depending on how conservatively they rate their battery, they would limit its discharge to somewhere between 25% and 50% of capacity. hence, although the battery physically has a rating of 60 AH, they would down-rate it in actual service to deliver a maximum of between 30 and 45 AH. Second, is the fact that the capacity ratings for storage batteries are based on either a 10 hour or 20 hour discharge rate. that is, the battery will deliver the number of AH shown if you discharge it slowly. The faster you discharge it, the less actual AH it can deliver. Finally, if the unit is delivering 200 watts to the load, it is actually consuming about 10% more due to inefficiencies in the inverter itself. Thus, to support a 200 watt load, the inverter will need to pull about 18–20 amps from the battery. Do this for 2 hours and you have used 36–40 AH, which as I have shown, is about what you can get from the unit within its conservative ratings.
Next as for the 6 volt 225AH batteries. Running them in series would give you 12 volts output from the set, but the AH capacity remains fixed. Thus, you would get 12V at 225AH. If you hooked them in parallel, then you would add the AH capacities and get 450 AH, but you would also only get 6 volts.
As for charging time, if you actually could get 40 amps from the charging system, I calculate a minimum of 13–14 hours, and then if you drive the charging kind of hard. If you keep the charging voltage up, then you can cause the charge acceptance to stay high in the latter parts of the charge cycle. this comes at the cost of needing to keep track of the actual charge put into the batteries, otherwise you can overshoot and potentially cause hydrolysis of the electrolyte, and if it is a vented battery an accumulation of hydrogen in the vicinity of the battery. If you go for a tapered charge, then things are much safer for the battery, but take a few hours longer to finish topping the battery up.
Eccles
Thank you,
I went to a battery vender and got some bad info on adding the ah’s together. I’m happy that you set me staight.
Second, your 13–14 hours of charge time, is that for 225ah @ 12 volts or the 450 ah @ 12 volts? In which case I would buy four 6 volt 225 ah bateries to get to the 12 volt 450 ah’s.
At 40 amps charging per hour, is that the same as storing about 500 watts per hour. And would it be safe to say that I’ll be able to use about 300 watts of it when it is all said and done?
Watch Dog- The calculations were based on 40 amps charging into 450 AH batteries (voltage was not an issue for the basic calculation).
You need to be a little careful when you start putting batteries into series-parallel arrangements. In a simplistic case, putting two 6V batteries in series gives you a 12V battery, and putting two of those composited 12V batteries in parallel will give you the kind of AH capacity you are speaking of.
The problem comes in when you are looking at real-world conditions. In such a series-parallel arrangement, if one of the batteries in the lash-up becomes weak or damaged, the wiring will provide a path through which the remaining batteries will possibly discharge through the bad one, attempting to equalize charges. If the bad battery happens to fail in a shorted condition, the results can be spectacular (from a distance). Hence, there are some concerns that need to be addressed:
1) Only identical batteries of the same age and same state of wear should ever be connected in this manner
2) Each individual battery should have a fuse on its positive lead to permit it to blow the fuse and isolate itself in the event something bad happens.
3) One needs to observe current limits in this arangement for both charging and discharging, based on the value of the fuses used in the protection circuitry.
Thank you
I’m soooo far behind on this thread….but I’ve been trying to learn about deep cycle batteries…so is an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery OK? I’ve been trying to figure out if I should be more concerned about the solid plate thickness or what…..should we be looking at the ‘stationary’ or ‘forklift’ batteries due to the thickness of the lead plates? One site mentions brands Rolls-Surrette, US Battery and Trojan. I looked at Sears & their site doesn’t tell you anything, same with Academy Sports. Should I just go to a place that sells boats and have them just sell me something & figure it’s gotta be somewhere near what I need?
Whew!
Does anyone know what the Amish do to run their houses? I think they use propane lanterns, but that is all I know (and that could be wrong). How do they keep their houses warm in winter?
This thread is CLOSED for length. it continues in Part 3 Here
Okay