From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Homeopathic Treatment of 1918 Pandemic

15 October 2005

newhollandgirl – at 13:33

I have done some reasearch and discovered that there is interesting evidence that cases of the 1918 influenza were treated effectively with homeopathic remedies . . . (Homeopathy treats the disease but does not prevent it, however.) At the website below: www.nesh.com/main/nejh/samples/winston.html, the New England Journal of Homeopathy quotes from a still to be published history of homeopathy . . . which in turn quotes from an article published in 1920 by W.A. Dewey, MD in the Journal of the American Society of Homeopathy. According to that article a Dean W. A. Pearson of Philadelphia collected 26,795 cases of influenza treated by homeopathic physicians with a mortality rate of 1.05%. There is also a book by Susan Perko, PhD, entitled the Homeopathic Treatment of Influenza with a 2005 edition that includes a section on bird flu. (I have this book on order and therefore have not yet read it.)

Since it seems evident that other treatments and/or vaccines for a future flu pandemic will be non-existent . . . and in scant supply, my thinking is that we should give a good look at homeopathy’s track record, especially in 1918 (even more so now that we know that the 1918 flu was a bird flu.)

I might add to this posting that I have used homeopathy for a good 30 years (although not exclusively), as did my parents (who lived in Europe for many years) before me. My understanding is that the remedies used in 1918 are remedies that are readily available today over the counter (although higher potency doses usually need to be attained through a homeopathic physician. In either event, the remedies are inexpensive and therefore within reach of the less than affluent, including in the Third World.

There is no doubt that much of the medical establishment and the drug industry will not want to hear about this. But we the public must not leave any stone unturned in defending our health . . . and our lives!

I look forward to hearing responses to this posting!

DemFromCTat 16:50

As posted in other threads, we’ve put a complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) page up for those who have data to post; opinions alone without data are best left to the forum ;-)

On some specific topics, that which has not been studied has not been studied, so anecdotal items like “I took X for Y number of years and am still alive” have little value. Just remember, the pleural of anecdote is NOT data. In time, I hope people post studies, including from the journals you have cited, and other named sources.

Other board have had screaming arguments about this; that seems unnecessary. Some will use CAM, others will not. BTW, some people will sell you snake oil. Caveat emptor. And many Americans use CAM as an additional (not instead of) resource. So post away, but deliberately prevocative posts are not looked for.

17 October 2005

Raumo – at 05:44

The plural of anecdote is not data, but “data” (as publisized) is not always truth. (neither are anecdotes, of course)

Unfortunatly there are people who will cause harm to the whole human population, in exchange for personal wealth, by creating fake data. “Caveat emptor” should be applied to medication of all kinds and certainly vaccinations (which are made from stuff nastier then snake oil)

We are each responsible for our own decisions, and I think that all this talk of panademics reinforces the thought that we need to reserch and study the differnt possibilties as we cannot always rely on others to take care of us.

I am not trying to start an argument about homeopathics or alternative therapys, I simply wish to post my opinion that we all need to be careful about who we belive, and that this includes modern medicin as well as CAM.

Michael prairie heretic – at 07:02

If you watch the infomercials late at night you will find cures for every disease known to man. My favorite late night physician did 2 years for credit card fraud and now sells you a cure for everything. He stated on a television interview that allopathic physicians are all fraudsters intent on making a buck off of our gullibility.

I do believe in double blind studies done by people who are not on the payroll of the drug manufacturer. You must be very careful to look for this. There have been horrible incidents of scientists who sold their souls and falsified data.

This situation makes it very tough for consumers to chose wisely. I hate to admit this but I do listen to friends and family about the efficacy of drugs that they have used. These individuals are at least known to me to be unbiased. Finding reliable information about drugs and treatments is work.

DemFromCTat 09:11

Finding reliable information about drugs and treatments is work.

Yes, but work well spent. Use PubMed and read the studies for yourself. see if it’s reproducible by multiple studies. Check authoritative sources, then decide for yourself. A rejection of greed should not be a rejection of the scientific method.

30 December 2005

EPConwayat 11:42

There are a number good homeopathic flu remedies on the market today, which are manufactured in accordance with HPUS (Homeopathic Pharmacopoeia of the U.S) guidelines, and which are approved for OTC use by FDA. Many of these remedies include a “single homeopathic” ingredient called Anas barbariae, which is made from an extract of the liver and heart of a duck. Ducks are known to be carriers of flu viruses.

Assuming the “source” is or has been infected with a “bird type flu”, its possible that evidence could be developed using conventional science, in addition to “homeopathic industry” science.

For regulatory info check out: Homeopathic Pharmacopeoia To read one interesting news bulletin: Natural Flu Remedy

pogge – at 12:51

EPConway:

I’ve edited your post above this so that the links point directly to the respective sites. You may not have intended to but you created two completely new categories when you created the two new pages. They’ll only get deleted the next time I do a house-cleaning.

There might well be good places for those links within the existing category structure.

Anne – at 13:00

Having just recovered from Viral Pnuemonia I was rummaging through my homepathic and Herbal stockpile. I was taking a thing called Anti-Plague Extract. A Dr. Christopher formula ofGarlic Bulbs, Aloe Vera Gel, Lobelia Herb, Marshmallow Root, White Oak Bark, Black Walnut Hulls, Uva Ursi Leaves, Mullen Leaves and Scallcap Herb. Since it old, and down to the dregs I decided to order some. The Anti Plague formula now seems to contain Comfrey Root. They say to take this by the droperful, then there is a warning that Comfrey Root causes liver damage, and should only be used externally. I know that Comfrey is dangerous internally. But how can one take something externally when it is suggested as a tonic internally. I intend to call, but probably won’t get an explaination. Has anyone used this remedy besides myself?

Anne – at 13:15

Maybe its a new way of saying, this is dangerous, I told you so, but you can take it at your own risk.Just don’t blame us if you have problems.

Racter – at 16:39

newhollandgirl:

“I have done some reasearch and discovered that there is interesting evidence that cases of the 1918 influenza were treated effectively with homeopathic remedies.”

Let me get this straight. You would dismiss the carefully documented findings of recent clinical studies using well-defined protocols in favor of some conjecture about the alleged treatment of some alleged patients nearly a century ago?

“There is no doubt that much of the medical establishment and the drug industry will not want to hear about this”

If you don’t trust the word of the “medical establishment” when it comes to evaluating the efficacy of homeopathy and the like, why are you able to trust it when it comes to evaluating the nature and seriousness of the threat posed by avian flu in the first place?

“My understanding is that the remedies used in 1918 are remedies that are readily available today over the counter”

Considering the ghastly death toll from the 1918 pandemic, it’s hard to see use of those remedies as particularly strong endorsement for their effectiveness.

Let me ask you a question: did you get a flu shot this year?

31 December 2005

Anne – at 10:57

I think I understand on thinking about the comfrey. They probably have removed the dangerous alkaloids.

gs – at 11:39

homeopathy isn’t it that it is assumed to work in such thinning that no molecule of the drug is assumed to be contained ? (I read something like that) Seems that we’d have to rewrite the whole physics and chemics then.

Racter – at 12:20

gs

“homeopathy isn’t it that it is assumed to work in such thinning that no molecule of the drug is assumed to be contained ? (I read something like that) Seems that we’d have to rewrite the whole physics and chemics then.”

What would be your estimate as to how much of the chemistry and physics would have to be rewritten?

Swann – at 17:59

LOL

Racter – at 18:38

Thank you, thank you… I’ll be here all week…

Though I couldn’t resist having a little fun with gs there, I’m absolutely behind him on this one 100%. Homeopathy is snake-oil. Period.

And I have absolutely no intention of discussing it any further here. There are many black holes in cyberspace; homeopathy is one of them. It doesn’t even deserve the bandwidth.

Lorelle – at 21:11

Anne, I think if you drank comfrey tea every day it might start to cause some damage. That’s my understanding of it. Still much safer than lots of over-the-counter drugs, especially if you only have a few drops for a brief period. Some of my herb books say the same warning after every herb. “only take after consulting your doctor, and not if pregnant, etc…” to protect themselves.

Calico – at 21:24

Homeopathy is very effective if used properly. That means the right remedy for the right set of symptoms. That also means that for a particular individual at a particular stage of the flu the most effective remedy may vary significantly.

This isn’t based merely on the success of homeopathy in 1918. It is based on the success of homeopathy for more than 200 years. The most likely candidates for flu symptoms are quite well known now.

01 January 2006

DemFromCTat 10:54

There have been more flame wars over complimentary and alternative medicine (CAM) on flu threads than any other single topic. Some flu message board have been shut down over it. Just letting you all know about recent history.

Since most people who use CAM use it in addition to traditional medicine (not all, but more than not) there’s no reason for anger over the topic, though strong feelings are (apparently) hard to avoid. There’s a CAM page at the wiki for those interested (I really encourage people to move out of the Forum and explore the rest of the wiki), and for those not interested, no reason to feel obligated to post on the topic.

The only caveat I have is that this is not a place to hawk commercial products. See Vira 38, now on the FDA’s watch list.

ghost of edgar allan poe – at 12:12

I suggest using the term “conventional medicine” or “Western medicine” or “allopathic medicine” instead of “traditional medicine” - this latter has a number of possible meanings, even though many or most people using the term mean “the medicine I, a North American or European, grew up with” - a very small time frame to call “traditional”, in my opinion.

DemFromCTat 12:21

“conventional medicine” is certainly a good name that everyone will ‘get’ right away.

03 January 2006

clark – at 07:00

When my son was 9 mo and teething- the guy at the health food store told me to give him homeopathic chamomillia. I put three or four drops into his mouth and he stopped crying and went to sleep. Worked every time. Just because something doesn’t make any sense (I agree, homeopathics doesn’t make sense to me either)- doesn’t mean it is wrong. The theory of relativity, the chaos theories and black holes don’t make sense to me. Yet they all work. Conventional medicine is just another belief system- and it is full of holes and contradictions.

Calico – at 18:59

Just got back from a tune-up with my homeopath. We had a quick discussion on influenza. She said that regardless of the nature of the circulating flu, the first remedy she would want me to take would be my constitutional. (We’ve been honing in on that one and I think we finally have it. Nothing worth mentioning here because it is so unusual.)

At any rate, she said I wasn’t the type to get the flu, so not to worry. (It’s true, I haven’t had the flu in 35 years.)

She also understands it is in the nature of my constitutional to worry, though. ;^) We ran out of time, but she did bring up oscillococcinum.

Anne – at 19:09

Which I have used. I have a homeopathic kit, but honestly don’t know how much benefit I get from any of this. I prefer herbs and vitamins and minerals.I do agree there is a lot in a persons temperment that could influence what illness you could be prone to. The old type A>B>C personality thing. Nothing worse for the health than being a worrier.I always use diversion as a health cure. If my mind is occupied with something of interest my body simply heals itself in its own good time. (not everything of course.) Nature does cure.I just don’t think it seems to be the case with this particular virus.

Ganygirl – at 21:11

I took Cold Calm by Boiron over the Christmas holiday for a bad head cold that is going around. It reduced the symptoms enough to let me sleep on my own instead of using something stronger like nighquill. I also took a Z-pak the Dr. gave me for the about to take over infection I could hear rattling in my lungs. The Dr. left it up to me to find an over-the-counter med for symptoms, and she said she had heard of Cold Calm. They worked together fine. I know several others who are still battling the chest cold or the resultant phuemonia (seems common this year). I recommend both types of medicine. And plenty of rest.

04 January 2006

Ann in oregon – at 23:29

Check out colloidal silver. I have a gadget to make my own and use it when ever I know I am exposed to sickness. I drink 2 to 4 oz and also put it in a nasal spray bottle for my nose. It clear the nose if stuffed up and kills bacteria or viruses .Look up on the internet about it . There is so much to know about it. You will be glad you did. Also another thing I use is food grade peroxide. Use only 2 or 3 drops in water or colloidal silver. I have used up to 9 drops if sick. It does taste really bad. but it works. Don’t just take my word for it ,do the researce. I think we will have to save ourselves if this bird flu hits us.

07 January 2006

Realist – at 12:52

It is unfortunate that most “scientific” minds are so blinded by their training that they refuse to see the benefits of any treatment which is not “approved” and endorsed by the capitalists in the drug industry (FDA being a government extension of the industry). Such “scientists” dutifully ignore person after person, who swear that the particular treatment works. They also manage to ignore countless scientific studies (maybe not conducted exactly per the FDA guidelines) that support the use of a particular herb or homeopathic remedy. Yet, it is also true that many people believe in “miracles,” “divine” creation, an active god who will give them extra money to buy a new car if they pray hard enough, and other such nonsense.

Regrettably, many advocates of alternative medicine (certainly not all), who copiously publish their opinions on the internet, on various medical subjects, are not knowledgeable persons, and have no grounding in scientific understanding of the world. They do not understand anything of which they speak. Others are dreamers. Others are persons easily misled by charletons and snake-oil salesmen, because they want to believe. Others simply believe everything they read or are told, without sufficiently questioning the source material.

Realists, who want to protect themselves and their families, from illness and disease, must see the world as it really is. We cannot believe in miracles simply because someone, 100 years ago, with an obvious interest in promoting a profit-earning profession (ie: homeopathy) claims a wonderful cure rate, within a journal, the veracity of whose governing editors are completely unknown to us. One must be skeptical of all such claims, until presented with some measure of scientific study of the claims. I am not suggesting that the studies must be of the “bought and paid for” kind that end in “FDA approval.” Nevertheless, remedies that are simply endorsed by a “homeopathic journal,” 100 years ago, whose editors and writers have an obvious interest in promoting their profession, do not qualify as reliable. The only thing that such writings can provide is a window into possibilities that first require extensive testing before being relied upon.

DemFromCTat 14:07

It’s the scientific method that counts… reproducibility from one group to another. There is a CAM page at the wiki, there is a CAM center at NIH.

Nonetheless, claims and anectodes are not data. And anecdotes by unknowns in support of sold products are doubly suspect.

Realist – at 15:02

Realist

I’m hurt! You’ve run off with my name!!

DemFromCTat 15:06

well, anyone arguing that there’s no realists at Flu Wiki will have to eat their hat. we apparently have at least two, if not more.

Calico – at 20:45

“One must be skeptical of all such claims, until presented with some measure of scientific study of the claims.”

In other words, you believe your lying eyes? I was very skeptical about homeopathy until, in desperation, I went to an experienced homeopath. The first remedy she gave me was table salt. Ok, this is silly but at least it won’t be toxic! Turned out it was the start of HUGE benefits I have seen in homeopathy. But by your standards I should still be skeptical.

“We cannot believe in miracles simply because someone, 100 years ago, with an obvious interest in promoting a profit-earning profession (ie: homeopathy) claims a wonderful cure rate, within a journal, the veracity of whose governing editors are completely unknown to us.”

Apparently you know nothing about Hahnemann. Homeopathy developed out of his revulsion for the extreme and toxic measures of conventional medicine at the time. He would not use it for his daughter, but rather than abandon medicine, and her, altogether he came up with something else. There are a number of excellent and thriving homeopathic journals TODAY that publish results of their studies. And Hahnemann wrote perfusely. How about having a go at his “Organon”.

08 January 2006

Reality Seeker – at 14:31

I am the Realist who wrote the piece that Calico is complaining about. I will henceforth call myself Reality Seeker, rather than Realist, so that there will be only one of me!

Calico, if homeopathy works for you, use it. Personally, I tried it, on several occasions, against my better judgment. Sure enough, it never worked. Like the arena of herbal naturopathic medicine, which I find to be far more effective, homeopathy is filled with overpriced (sometimes sky-high) so-called “drugs” that seem to do nothing for most people. That is not to say that there might not be some basis for a few of the claims. A study of ossicilinium (maybe I’ve spelled this wrong?), which is ground duck liver, and heralded by homeopaths as a “cure” for influenza, was shown to reduce the average length of symptomotology, of non-H5N1 flu victims, by .28 of one day. Personally, knowing the actual benefit of the homeopathic drug, though it exists, is limited to reducing about 1/16th of the total average length of a flu episode, I am not convinced that it is worth taking. One must compare it to tamiflu, relenza, green tea extract, elderberry extracts, and many other beneficial remedies, all of which cut several days off the symptomatic period.

The only way to intelligently use remedies, whether allopathic, naturopathic or homeopathic, is to use scientific examination of the claims, in order to sort through what to apply to which illness, and in what quantity. That is my main point. The fact that a homeopath, whatever his honesty or lack thereof, advocates a particular remedy, does not convince me any more than the fact that an internal medicine MD may support the widespread use of lipitor. Keep in mind that the doctors who bled George Washington to death, when he caught a cold, had only the best of intentions. They thought they were helping him, and would have presented you with a host of anecdotal cases that showed the benefits of bleeding someone with leeches, in a multitude of diseases, from flus, colds, hardening of the arteries, etc. Actually, there might be some basis for the use of leeches in venous insuffiency, but the rest of what doctors did, back then, bleeding people for virtually every ill, was completely bogus. They just didn’t know because they didn’t use scientific methods of examining their claims.

Adding to ignorance, of course, is the economic incentive of many allopathic, naturopathic and homeopathic related physicians and companies to make lots of money from the alleged “remedies” they advocate. Indeed, many of the homeopathic remedies, in particular, cost less than pennies to prepare (about the price of water, or the calium/magnesium binder material used in a pill). This is so because homeopathy advocates the use of microscopic quantities of the active ingredients, which are always the leading cost item in most preparations. These same remedies are sold to an unsuspecting public for very high prices.

There is much promotion of worthless junk by the herbal and homeopathic industries. Similar economic incentives, on a much greater scale, also lead to the promotion of highly dangerous drugs by Big Pharma. Thankfully, most non-allopathic remedies are not particularly dangerous. Homeopathy, in particular, is problematic. Some of the remedies may work, but clearly most of them do not. This fact has been proven, time and time again, anecdotally for people like myself, and scientifically, by an overwhelming number of formal studies. The economic incentives toward promoting remedies, worthless or not, however, are obvious.

Bottom line is this. People are free to do what they wish in so far as relying on whatever remedy they want. However, a realistic person should carefully examine the claims of any allopathic, herbal and, especially, homeopathic product before trusting the health of his family to it.

Reality Seeker – at 14:58

I should also like to note that Oscillococinum, as noted in my last post, is basically a tiny portion of ground up duck liver and nothing more. Yet, the homeopathic remedies company that makes it has given it a fancy name to try to convert what is actually a food product to one that sound “scientific” and pharmaceutic. Does the stuff work? Well, scientists at a prestigous research institute in NYC have found that it shortens the symptomatic period of the flu by .28 of a day, in a controlled study of a large number of people. It seems somewhat obvious as to why ground duck liver would have a slight beneficial effect. Ducks have high immunity to most influenza virus infections, including avian and non-avian flus. They are the endemic carriers and vectors of these disease from one part of the planet to another. Where ducks fly, massive deaths of chicken flocks, from influenza infection, are never far behind! Obviously, duck liver must contain antibodies, viral DNA particles, viral proteins, a version of immune complement, or some unknown transfer factor which helps the consuming animal build immunity. Yet, the beneficial effect is very slight. Tamiflu, relenza, elderberry extracts, and many many other remedies are far more effective. In spite of that, however, the manufacturer of this slightly effective homeopathic product obtains a premium price in the range of $20 for an amount of duck liver that is worth about $0.10 at the supermarket.

Anne – at 15:56

I’ve seen duck pate for sale. I wonder if duck foi gras would work as well as Oscillocinum. (I’ve used it.never noticed any shortening of my flu.)

Calico – at 21:09

Reality Seeker, homeopathy can only work if the right remedy is used. If you were choosing your own remedy, then it wasn’t likely you would be able to figure outwhat to take. It is sheer ignorance to say most remedies do not work. Homeopathy is extremely individualized. It is NOT a this-for-that regime (save that for allopathy and its many side effects). I have had a fair amount of success for acute situations, but I would NEVER choose a remedy for a chronic condition. Only a very qualified and experienced homeopath is likely to get that one right, without simply suppressing the original problem.

As far as Oscillo being only duck liver, in fact it isn’t. It has been diluted (and more important succussed) 200 times, each time diluting 1:200 times. There is no more duck liver present. (So no, Anne, duck pate would not work as well. It is totally different.) Oscillo can only work for a flu if taken at the right time for the right combination of symptoms. However, it can be very effective in those conditions. I do have Oscillo in my arsenal, but I have quite a few other homeopathic remedies as well. I won’t know until the flu arrives which ONE I need to take.

Homeopathy isn’t for sissies - it’s much too complicated.

09 January 2006

Normal Woman #1 – at 00:33

Calico, you are right. Homeopathy, is not for sissies. Those who rely on it, in serious illnesses, will face a likelihood of dying from, or being permanently injured by bacteria or virus infection. Certainly, such people are not sissies. It is also for “true believers” who sometimes can cure themselves with the placebo effect. It is also for people who have no real training in science or medicine, who parade around as so-called “homeopathic physicians.” Most of the latter folks ought to be arrested, because they are charletans. The fact that you say that the homeopathic duck liver remedy contains virtually no duck liver is proof enough!

Reality Seeker – at 01:06

Given that so-called “Oscillococinum” is so diluted, it probably has no duck cellular polypeptide proteins left in it. However, even at a 200 to 1 dilution, it must have numerous monopeptides, DNA strands, RNA strands, and other microscopic remnants of the original duck liver used in making it. Actually, if a 200 to 1 dilution can still have sufficient monopeptides to induce an immunity transfer, however small, perhaps eating a large amount of duck liver might greatly increase host resistance to influenza.

Normal Woman…what Calico admits that homeopathy is very variable, from person to person. This proves that it cannot ever be a globally effective method of treatment, even if everything he believes turned out to be true. Homeopaths are human beings, not gods. I doubt any of them have a “divine” understanding of their remedies. To say that some divinely inspired “doctor” will miraculously be able to know when a particular remedy will work with a particular individual is, I agree, absurd. Even if it were true, such variability leads to unpredicability and mistakes. If such practitioners were ever held to a malpractice standard for their mistakes, they would be put out of business, within a very short time by the weight of their mistakes. This does not happen arises out of the fact that few, if any, Americans put themselves into the hands of a so-called “homeopath,” when suffering from a serious condition that might prove deadly. Instead, typically, homeopaths treat chronic conditions where a patient has been put through the money machine mill of allopathic medicine, and given up on being cured. The homeopath spends lots of time with the patient, and develops a close relationship with him. This fine “bedside” manner is something most allopathic doctors, in their perennial quest for money, and lack of time, are usually lacking. The body eventually cures itself of most ills, even those unrecognized by modern medicine, so folks, like Calico, give the homeopath the credit.

In spite of all this, we cannot discount that there might be something behind a few of alleged homeopathic remedies, regardless of how ridiculous they sound. Obviously, the duck liver remedy does have some effect, though very very small.

Anne, as to the efficacy of large amounts of duck liver…we simply have no information. Big questions remain. Would the duck liver need to be raw? Does accidental contact with some secondary factor (the chromium stainless steel bowls used by Bioran?) is essential to the effectiveness of the remedy itself, or to its absorption. And, maybe eating a large amount of raw duck liver might give you a disease, in and of itself. Bottom line…we just don’t know. And, Oscillococinin, itself, is only marginally effective in fighting the flu. That is why realistic people, who want to protect their families, will avoid such “remedies” and stick to more scientifically proven methods.

anonymous – at 08:07

NW1, those taking the appropriate homeopathic remedy for the flu, statistically at least (since no one is providing any guarantee), will do just fine against all other treatments. And they will recover as fast or faster as well. Your comment about duck liver confirms you know nothing about how homeopathy works. It is the multiple succussions which makes a remedy homeopathic. The more successions, the stronger it is. A substance that has only been diluted, no matter how many times is NOT homeopathic. Those not so familiar with homeopathy will do better with far lower potencies. However, Oscillo comes only in 200C, which is really very strong.

RS, we both got the dilution factor wrong, but you weren’t paying attention anyway. 200C means it is diluted 1 to 100 (that’s the “c”) 200 times. Statistically, there is probably no original substance left after about 12C. 200C is well past that. As I tried to explain to NW1, homeopathy is NOT based on the presence of material substance, it is based on the successive succussions.

I was as skeptical as you or anyone else until I saw that it worked and worked very well, in particular for chronic conditions for which allopathy had nothing to offer except a LIFETIME of pharmaceutical costs and side effects. However, it cannot work unless the right remedy is selected. (And nothing divine about it, but it can take a fair amount of familiarity to work that out - not something that will happen as you are standing in the altmed aisle.) A single remedy should be used at a time, not the more common combination remedies most widely distributed (they may contain remedies that antidote each other). If you decided homeopathy did not work based on something you chose from your local health store, then it is really your fault for chosing the wrong remedy and maybe even taking it wrong.

Homeopathy is very successful for the flu, but it will require some training to get it right if you are stuck choosing your own remedy. For that reason, I’m not pushing it for those who are currently unfamiliar with homeopathy because you may not have enough time to learn how to use it. On the other hand, a pandemic raises the possibility that the “genus epidemicus” can be determined and that information disseminated. Again (like every other treatment) it is somewhat statistical, but it means that a person would not have to get ahold of their homeopath to find out what their individual symptoms indicate. Genus epidemicus works on the whole because a particular strain (doesn’t matter what disease) will tend to respond well to a particular remedy or two.

RS, since you can’t get past the allopathic this-for-that mentality, I would advise you to stay away from homeopathy. You will never get it (you demonstrate that by continuing to misrepresent what homeopathy is and what it can do). Good luck finding all the medications you may need. I hear there isn’t enough to go around this time.

DemFromCTat 10:42

Homeopathy is very successful for the flu

got data?

Calico – at 10:44

DF, you can start with Sandra Perko’s textbook (available from Amazon.com).

DemFromCTat 10:47

got data from a perr review journal? Testimonials and anecdotes don’t count. Post ‘em here if you got ‘em.

Calico – at 11:28

DF, I have nothing of the sort at my fingerprints, but there have been many references, including in that textbook. (Since the allopathic/pharmaceutical business has never been accepting of any of those studies, I’m not interesed in beating my head against that wall.) Besides, the folks who are better suited to using homeopathy for the flu are the folks who are already using it. They don’t need convincing, they already know homeopathy works.

DemFromCTat 11:39

Whatever. I’m curious about data, but I’m not the only one. There’s a CAM page at the wiki for those interested. You might want to check the homeopathy section to add or edit if inaccurate, Calico.

You will find many skeptics about tamiflu here, as well as skeptics of reports of H5N1 without verification. Skepticism and the call for data are healthy critical thinking traits, not meant to come across as hostile. But homeopathy doesn’t get a pass, either.

DemFromCTat 11:41

Flu Wiki CAM page?

Reality Seeker – at 11:41

I understand that the basic principle of homeopathy is that “like cures like.” I also know that, in spite of the supersitious beliefs of many of its adherents, the principle is related to modern immunization. If you study organic chemistry, you will learn that, no matter how diluted human science can make a particular piece of meat, it will still contain traces of DNA, RNA and monopeptides, even at 1000 to 1 dilutions. That amount is insufficient to overtly affect bodily functions, in most cases, and that is why most allopathic physicians will tell you that there is “nothing left.” However, the mantra of “nothing left” is misleading. The pancreas, kidneys, liver, heart, skin, etc., may need a minimum amount of a chemical in order to react to it. However, the human immune system works at the molecular level. It can pick up on these traces because it works at the microscopic level. For example, studies show that many vaccines, diluted several times, still elicit a strong immune response.

Amidst all the supersition, there is some basic science underlying homeopathy. This is in spite of the fact that homeopaths, and persons who believe in them, choose to ignore science for the most part. Witch doctors also have many effective remedies that they use on their tribes, on an almost daily basis. The same is true of homeopaths. That being said, I would never trust my health or that of my family to either a tribal witch doctor’s herbs, nor a homeopath’s dilutions, especially not in a life or death situation that a case of avian flu is likely to become.

DemFromCTat 11:45

See my comments on Jan 1, this thread. Please let’s aviod a CAM vs allopathic flame war. Life is too short and it’s not the main function of flu wiki.

This is a topic that folks have strong opinions about, and it won’t get resolved here.

MeteorShowerat 12:03

A homeopathic remedy at 200C “mathematically is less than one molecule per all the known matter in the universe”. I wonder exactly how they managed to put less than a molecule of the product in the remedy? That’s pretty darn impressive!

Say I decided to make a 200C homeopathic remedy. Say the remedy is actually water. That means that the remedy contains less than a molecule of water (H2O). Which means that I probably just put a bit of oxygen or hydrogen in it. Just enough so that it would be proportionnal to less than one molecule in all the known matter in the universe.

A remedy that doesn’t even include a whole molecule of itself in the final product must be really effective!

If you want to (quickly) learn more about homeopathy, I would suggest reading from this page. The author is kind of snarky but he’s an equal opportunity snarkist.

Anne – at 12:04

Duck liver pate is cooked. the kind from deliberatly engorged ducks livers is sort of fatty and like caviar, not to everyones taste. I eat chicken liver pate when I get the urge, just as I do calves liver, when I feel my system craves it.I try everything for any condition I have ever had, and by God sooner or later I stumble on what helps me, cures me in fact. I just don’t think we have the time or can afford to play around the way I do for lesser problems. We will have to make our choices and prepare before the fact. Once its here it will be too late.

MeteorShowerat 12:21

I started writing my previous post before DemFromCT’s last post at 11:45 and so I had not seen him urging us to avoid a flame war.

So far, I’ve found this thread to be pretty civil. DemFromCT, since you don’t think the subject will be “resolved here”, does this mean that people that simply don’t believe in homeopathic remedies should refrain from giving out factual information?

I thought the op was sincerely looking for more information, be it for or against homeopathy. Plus, I’ve been a lurker for a while and I know that I liked seeing both sides of the argument. Is this really a problem, even if everyone remains polite?

Racter – at 12:42

The real issue is that it is outside the scope of this site’s intended purpose. As has been pointed out, there is a special section for this, and a discussion thread dedicated exclusively to it (which hasn’t had a hit since Oct 21). I cringe every time I see this thread bumped.

MeteorShowerat 13:10

Maybe someone with admin powers could lock this thread and provide a link to the other discussion thread? I’m sure most of the people here probably weren’t even aware that there’s an exclusive discussion thread already on this subject! (I didn’t even know this site existed on Oct 21!)

The special section has been pointed out before, but not the fact that there’s already another discussion thread!

A forum FAQ with information on what exactly should and should not be discussed on the forums would probably also be useful. Personally, I’m no longer entirely sure which subjects are in the “scope of this site’s intended purpose”. I thought homeopathy was related to the “implementable solutions to foreseeable problems” part of the Flu Wiki.

Calico – at 14:07

Metershower, a 200C remedy made of water would mean that, statistically, none of the ORIGINAL water was still present. If you used water for the dilution, of course there would still be water. If you used alcohol for the dilution, by current techniques you would just find alcohol.

I stopped worrying about the impossibility of such a high diluted substance being effective when I found without doubt that it was effective. Something happens as a result of the succussions which makes it different than something that was merely diluted that many times.

DemFromCTat 15:40

if you think you have something related to flu, discuss it. If your discussion is going off track in the sense that, let’s say, we’re discussing homeopathy in general rather than how it relates to flu, we’re off track (same would be true for politics). Many people use non-traditional medicine in addition to, not instead of, what the doctor pescribes. Rightly or wrongly, that’s reality. I’m not trying to knock or endorse CAM, just trying to find out what’s fact and what’s opinion. It’s how NIH treats CAM and I think it’s a reasonable approach.

The rules, such as they are, have been posted, but it’s by common consent. We work them out as we go along.

This thread has been fine, I just want to keep it that way.

20 March 2006

Montanan – at 08:24

I am resurrecting this thread to ask about a study shared with me by an RN who also trained as a MD then switched directions (because of a personal health experience) and went on to study acupunture in Beijing. I can’t find it on-line…it is from ‘The Journal of Traditional Eastern Health & Fitness’ Winter 2005–2006 and reports:

“Hypericin…has cured bird flu-stricken poultry in lab test, …which is expected to help develop new drugs to fit humans.”

The drug, developed by the Chinese Academy of Agricultural Sciences, “cured all poultry infected by the deadly H5N1 avian flu in the experiment.” It goes on to take about Tamiflu, “which contains another traditional Chinese medicine, Star anise.”

I read the homeopathy pages on the resources links with interest. Does anyone know anything about the traditional healing affects of Hypericin or Star Anise. I plan to research this a bit on-line myself but am curious if anyone out there has knowledge.

Montanan – at 08:37

Hypericum perforatum, St. John’s Wort. I guess if I decide to give it a go, I won’t be depressed about the Panflu… Research Papers http://tinyurl.com/ns6he

St. John’s Wort has a long history of research as an anti-viral, and scientists have tried to separate the active ingredient (Hypericum) out and put it in pill form (this is where the money is). They have discovered that this does have anti-viral properties, but they have not successfully been able to separate out the Hypericum. The plant can suppress viral growth in cells, but can one get enough of it in ones body to make a difference? http://tinyurl.com/m7s8n

http://tinyurl.com/nd5ye from the USDA agricultural research service.

“Technical Abstract: Hypericum perforatum L. produces both hyperforins, a family of antimicrobial acylphloroglucinols, and hypericins, a family of phototoxic anthraquinones exhibiting anti-microbial, anti-viral, and anti-herbivore properties in vitro. To determine whether these secondary metabolites are part of the plant defense system, we used meristem cultures to assess the effects of exposure to exogenous application of the abiotic elicitors, methyl jasmonate and salicylic acid. Levels of hypericins in plant tissue increased in response to both elicitor treatments; total hypericin levels increased as much as 3.3 times control levels when treated with 200 uM methyl jasmonate treatment for 14 days. Increased hyperforin concentrations were detected when plantlets were treated with 1 mM salicylic acid or 50 uM methyl jasmonate. For assessing responses to a biotic elicitor, greenhouse-grown plant materials were inoculated with the plant pathogen, Colletotrichum gloeosporioides. Levels of hypericins increased twice as much as the control when inoculated with 1 x 104 spores/mL; higher doses of spores overwhelmed the plant defenses. The elevation of hypericins and hyperforin in response to abiotic and biotic elicitors suggests that these secondary metabolites are components in the inducible plant defense responses of H. perforatum.”

Calico – at 08:40

(Just noting - not homeopathic from the way you described them.)

Is hypericin perhaps St. Johns Wort? Homeopathic hypericum acts quite differently than its herbal counterpart, St. Johns Wort, but there should be plenty of info on herbal SJW if that is what you are researching.

I believe star anise is the basis for Tamiflu.

12 May 2006

quackery dacchary – at 11:09

Just found an interesting discussion today of this topic, which can be found at the NHS Doctor blog

There is a connection between avian flu and homeopathy. Avian flu is transmitted by birds. Homeopathy is quackery.

Calico – at 11:12

Except that homeopathy is real and very effective.

Calico – at 11:15

To the extent that h5n1 develops into a similar flu as 1918, the following compilation is the most useful I have found:

http://www.herbaltherapeutics.net/Favorite_Remedies.pdf

23 June 2006

Closed - Bronco Bill – at 01:03

Old thread - Closed to increase Forum speed.

Retrieved from http://www.fluwikie2.com/index.php?n=Forum.HomeopathicTreatmentOf1918Pandemic
Page last modified on June 23, 2006, at 01:03 AM