From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Cooperative Thinking Food

14 May 2006

lugon – at 14:38

For two weeks (that’s our initial intention) we are invited to focus on Food. Not for individuals or families, but for whole countries or states or regions. Let’s think big! This thread has emerged after Forum.ASimplePreventionPlan? started by Dude, and is slightly modelled after the thread I started to help Monotreme and Okieman with Water Supply.

The aim for this “exercise” (serious, but an exercise) might be to follow this suggested sequence or parallel “areas”:

As a first step I’ll copy some ideas from the thread started by Dude. Let’s bring as many ideas as possible, so that countries and states may select whatever fits them best at any point in time!

lugon – at 14:42

If a country (a high percentage, not just a few “preppers”) wants to have food in case a disruptive pandemic happens, then we could look in several directions:

lugon – at 14:47

Soon we should have enough ideas to create a wiki-proper page and populate it. It would be, or rather is, here.

lugon – at 14:51

For reference:

Anything else so we may start or go on?

crfullmoon – at 15:07

Protect the existing farmers by educating them about current H5N1 precautions, and about Pandemic, get them to stock up their families, and what do they need/use in a year that is imported?

What is currently grown locally that is sent for processing or not utilized locally? Are they crops that could be used in pandemic, or could the farmers consider being able to switch to useful crops people locally/regionally could use?

Who helps harvest now? (what will happen in pandemic?)

Any land that would work to be put into large or small garden production? [What about prisons? Nursing homes? other institutions or workplaces?]

Get the local schools teaching “Grow Your Own Food Gardens” now with a teaching garden at the school and helping kids find even a couple of windowboxes or raised beds at home to grow greens or herbs for school/summer projects?

(What about the suburban deer population, for one underused food source that comes to mind - do deer in the the northeast US have bad prions or whatever already?)

European – at 15:35

The biggest problem with the food supply in our industrialised just-in-time societies are the so-called “food-miles” that all food have. If we could somehow get rid of those, then we would actually be far better off than today.

lugon – at 15:35

crfullmoon: added your ideas (and some others) to the wiki page - keep ‘em coming!

crfullmoon – at 15:44

Problems: Harvesting if the people are fled or sick/dead. Would replacements know what to do, where stuff is kept?

What if the farmer was sick; who knows what needs to be done when?

crfullmoon – at 15:49

What does the state and federal government have planned? Will they just swoop in and confiscate stuff in an emergency for “redistribution” à la Katrina World?

(that’s not phrased nice enough for a Wiki page

- I just wonder where govt plans will clash with whatever local community contingency actions do come up with; I can see someplace doing ok and the govt deciding they need it all. -sigh- Time for some chocolate or something, since I don’t imbibe.)

Medical Maven – at 16:06

crfullmoon: Communities that are prepared in the midst of of famine and disorder are just as likely to be at risk as individual families in a similarly deprived neighborhood. You have just moved up the “food chain”. Except as a “community” the state or feds probably won’t put a bullet in your head after they have “redistributed” your goodies, (assuming you don’t resist).

It is all there in the history books. Read ‘em and weep.

crfullmoon – at 16:09

I have been, and, I’ve been trying not to.

Jane – at 16:22

What happens to the seed packets that aren’t sold after the growing season? Can they be collected locally and saved for the next year? Also, the seed companies may have inventory they had not shipped. Maybe for tax credits, they would donate it.

There probably are tax implications for food inventories and storage, too. Would businesses change their practices in advance of government changing the tax laws? Or they could participate under “charitable donations.”

Arbor Day foundation (?) offers 10 little trees for a donation. Wonder if they’re interested in offering some seedlings for edible landscaping instead.

lugon – at 16:24

Yes, but we are in prepping time. If enough communities have food, then there’s no need to “redistribute”. It’s not a binary (yes or no) variable. Ok, right now it may be a binary variable.

And we may also think about how to start growing food fast. I mean, there’s food for some time and the emergency lasts longer, so you want to plant seeds before they are needed.

Looking for how long a lettuce takes to grow (answer: I still don’t know) led me to http://www.selfsufficientish.com/ and http://www.selfsufficientish.tv/ which would be a set of videos showing how to do things.

Re video: This kind of things will definitely help - if we have time, both for wide communities and for specific services. Maybe someone can document procedures so they may be used if there’s need to - by less-than-perfectly trained personel.

Okieman – at 16:29

In the dairy business (I was a dairy farmer for seven years) there is something called a “total mixed ration” or a TMR for short. What a TMR does is combine multiple ingredients into one feed that has all the nutritional needs of a producing dairy cow.

Now, people are not cows, but in an emergency situation a TMR for people could probably be created by nutritionists using corn, wheat, soybeans, oats, vitamins, trace minerals, salt…etc. The government could use the feed mills around the country to mix these rations and if need be even distribute it in feed trucks. These feed trucks have augers on them that can be swung out (usually to fill feed tanks, silos…etc) but could also be used to fill buckets and sacks held by people. In this manner the driver of the truck would not have to come in contact with the people (the augers are probably 20 to 40 feet long. In this manner a lot of food can be distributed in a short period of time.

About the human TMR, I am sure it would be quite bland and would have to be boiled into a gruel or some such mixture, but we are talking about an emergency and the need to keep millions (not thousands) of people alive. This would cut out the processing plants and the need for lots of people to run them. The feed mills likely do not need many people to operate, and will only need the raw materials to grind up and mix. Semi trucks would be used to pick up the raw materials, take them to the mill, then deliver the finished product to the community needing it. This is how millions of cattle, chickens, and hogs are fed everyday.

This would be a method that would keep people alive, not happy maybe, but alive.

Jane – at 16:36

I wonder about state agriculture extension services, if they have concise booklets for beginners. I guess this is the time to order them, and/or see if the experts there are aware of how important they might be (“essential workers?”).

lugon – at 16:47

We want printed stuff to be in the public domain or other licenses, so that people can build smallish “businesses” out of packaging all of this locally.

Much like advice from doctors: the science is shared world-wide (and even “experts in something else” can buy the books even if understanding them is painful or just not possible without some background), but then you have to pay somehow if you want local advice taylored to your situation.

So we want the science to be free, so to speak.

lugon – at 16:51

Of course, the very same educational material can be used by states, educational institutions, etc.

jim – at 16:57

Many of us eat to much. What percent shrinkage in the food supply could be accomodated? We might be better off if we ate a little less.

Okieman – at 17:22

lugon – at 14:38

“For two weeks (that’s our initial intention) we are invited to focus on Food. Not for individuals or families, but for whole countries or states or regions. Let’s think big!”

Folks, with all due respect, we have to think BIG as lugon mentioned in his first post on this thread. My suggestion up above for a TMR for humans may be distasteful (sorry about the pun) but it does have the ability to feed huge numbers of people. If society hits the rocks for a few months then simply keeping people alive must be the goal of the government. Water & food are essentials. What I have proposed is something that can be heated over a wood fire if needed. I’m sure it would get old eating something like this for a month or two, but it would work to keep body and soul together in one place.

If my suggestion is no good, that is fine by me, but we MUST think BIG on this issue.

jim – at 17:41

When I went to the source of the emergency foods I bought they had an extensive analysis of the nutrient match with persons daily Requirements. I bought a 1 year supply (6 months for 2) and I’m pretty sure that the package was designed as a trade off between low cost, long term storage and packaging for shipment. It also has to be edible but I don’t think that was amoung the primary requirements. It’s Mainly basics reccomended by the LDS. Much of the processing is freeze drying, and packaging. Distribution was expensive. Presumed in your idea is a great deal of packaging and distribution, the basics of content would have to be available without much processing i.e Wheat, Beans, sugar, Oil, Yeast, Vitamin Supplements. Things that might be available. The cost isn’t that high but the emergncy food industry probably can not meet the demand if everyone wanted them to meet the needs. But there package is basically a TMR

Kathy in FL – at 18:04

There are several “energy” bars availabe. They have different caloric levels … 1500, 2000, 3000+, etc.

I know that the military used to issue emergency packs so that if a soldier was separated — downed in a plane, washed over board, etc. — they would be able to survive for a short period on these energy bars.

There are also plenty of recipes for homemade versions of these power bars that include oats, peanut butter, honey, etc. I wouldn’t be that hard to pull a variety of them together so that different regions, with access to local crops, might be able to make their own TMRs.

Kathy in FL – at 18:08

This thread also strikes at one of the reasons that I’ve turned into that “crazy woman that posts all of the recipes.”

Communities need to be able to use what they have access to. If fresh produce cannot be trucked in, then a fall back to the warehouse supplies of non-perishable foods is necessary.

The problem is that a lot of people just plain don’t know how to cook anymore, or they have a limited number of items that they can cook and have forgotten how to scratch out a meal from whatever is on hand. Too easy to run to the grocery for ingredient x,y, or z or run by the fast food joint for a quick pick up if they don’t see anything in the cabinets they want to eat.

Jane – at 18:08

Okieman at 16:20-That sounds like an efficient solution. Maybe there will be a wheat-free version for people like me who can’t eat wheat (or rye or barley). It feels like I’m nitpicking, but many people are gluten intolerant but don’t realize it. Their food that makes them sick but the symptoms are attributed to other causes.

Kathy in FL – at 18:13

‘Nother idea that probably won’t be liked by the franchise businesses.

If it comes to a quarantine or SIP for most people with lots of illness keeping businesses … including restaurants of all flavors … closed then this may create a situation where stuff just goes bad in restaurants because it isn’t being used.

Rather than allowing this to happen, perhaps a system of redistribution can be created to prevent waste.

For instance, rather than pulling “normal” sizes of canned goods off the shelves for meals and such for large groups … such as housed first responders, hospital staff, national guard groups, militia groups, etc. … use the commercial sized cans in restaurants for this purpose.

That doesn’t cover issues of exposure in large groups, but it would be a way to feed groups as in soup lines, chow lines, etc. without depleting normal family sized non-perishables that are needed by individuals or smaller family groups.

Kathy in FL – at 18:17

Another less that palatable idea for some will be community search parties.

If a house is dessimated by the illness leaving no one alive, or children unable to take care of themselves, a designated group may seize any remaining food (also perhaps medicines, linens, etc.) in the house so that they can be redistributed.

Under these circumstances any remaining children would have to be moved to a child care system (see what is mentioned in the CanadaSue fictional hypothesis of when H5N1 came to her Canadian town). The qualifying goods in the home they were found in could then be distributed into the child care facility.

You would have to be very careful under these circumstances to make it a legal seizure and that non-survival goods were not taken (or were somehow held in trust for the child’s welfare when everything was over).

green Mom – at 18:55

Wouldn’t the idea of “complimentary proteins” be the human equivilent of TMRs? Thats one reason a lot of emergency food bank people keep stressing beans and rice- their proteins compliment each other. Other examples: wheat and milk, corn and beans, etc There was a lot of this information in a lot of 70′s vegatarian/whole foods books. If you had a soup or casserole of rice and beans plus a vitimin rich vegtable, you have a complete balanced meal or say granola with milk and a piece of fruit.

Melanie – at 18:58

The Vegitarian Epicure is a great cookbook filled with recipes like that.

MaMaat 19:37

Okieman, I think the TMR for people idea is an excellent one! I’m really not sure how to go about implementing it though. Are you thinking regional within a country? Stockpiled in each community? How would it be distributed if it was not stockpiled in advance?

2beans – at 19:44

Just googled around for sources of heirloom seeds and looks like Monsanto hasn’t yet made the ENTIRE world round-up-ready and non-reproductive. A site called Seed Trust looks promising.

Okieman – at 19:47

jim – at 17:41

“Presumed in your idea is a great deal of packaging and distribution, the basics of content would have to be available without much processing i.e Wheat, Beans, sugar, Oil, Yeast, Vitamin Supplements.”

The only processing would be throwing it all in a grinder/mixer (agricultural size feed grinder, think tons of this, tons of that). No packaging, take the mixed product put it (possibly) in the same truck in which the raw ingredient were delivered. The recipient of the mixture takes it, adds water, brings it to a boil, let it sit and simmer however long is needed (think Maltomeal or Oatmeal…that sort of thing) then eat. Very little human man power would be utilized, and again no packaging. Distribution would be by bulk semi tractor trailer loads (tons at a time).

My kinfolk back 75–100 years ago subsisted on cornbread to a large extent. They had home grown vegetables and home grown meat, but cornbread was a major staple. This idea that I have proposed would fill in the gaps if nothing else. I am trying to be realistic about how to feed millions of people with very little manpower.

janetn – at 20:01

Think local local and local. We ship food all over the place its nice in ordinary times. Not feasible in a crisis situation

Okieman – at 20:03

Jane – at 18:08 Sorry Jane, the glutten intolerant amoung us would have a hard time. I am looking at the idea of saving the most people with the least amount of manpower. I’m not sure how to address the glutten intolerant or food allergy issues.

MaMa – at 19:37 I was thinking regional within a state. I would think that all the states would have feed mills or something similar that could handle bulk loads of raw material and grind/mix. Some states (like Oklahoma) would have more than others (Rhode Island?) but when you are talking about semi loads, then you can move alot of product and unload quickly, then go back for more. This is something I would envision lasting only a number of months.

The raw materials are already stockpiled in grain silos all across the midwest. Haul it by the semiload to the grinder/mixer, grind it, mix it, put it in a semi truck (bulk tank) and haul it to the distribution point at what ever city needs it. A truck with an auger could pull up to a site, swing the stinger (the auger) out and down to a few feet off the ground for sacks, or into the back of a pickup…etc, auger the amount allocated, that person move off, then the next move up…repeat process. The people could suppliment with home grown vegetables, dandelions, deer, rabbit, local cattle or pigs.

2beans – at 20:04

Jane at 16:22 - I’m thinking about your idea of tax credits. Commercial farmers in this area are generally monoculturists - all soybeans, all rice, all sugar cane, etc. What about something along the lines of land banking? Pyaing these large-scale operations through tax credits to devote a percentage of land to vegetable crops or TMR-like crops as Okieman mentioned? Any tax professionals or lobbyists out there?

Timber – at 20:29

Thank you, lugon and Okieman ---

   IMHO, this is another example of why this wiki is so important. Okieman’s TMR strategy is well thought out and sounds practical.

   In another post, I mentioned Joseph and Pharaoh. “Prepping” saved TWO civilizations. We ain’t ready for two months of privation --- the Egyptians of the OT “got it” better than the Western world does today.

   I’m preaching to the choir, I know. My primary purpose is to encourage you. 

   And MaMa, too. The TMR might well be comprised of different ingredients in different areas: More wheat in central Canada, a little kudzu in the South, some of the crabapples and grapes and peanuts and legumes that now go unharvested.

   Jane, gluten is a serious issue, as is the reaction some folks have to nuts or eggs (???) or other foods. Note that I also don’t include meat. It is simply too inefficient to rely on as a source of protein. We can feed some people meat (interestingly, chickens and swine — both notorious flu carriers — are fare more efficient at converting vegetation into protein than cattle). Or we can feed a lot of people plant protein directly.

   Mad cow disease has also taught us the risks of the Soylent Green approach to nutrition. We’ve got some to do on the food problem…
Kathy in FL – at 20:33

Those “TMR” type bars come under a couple of name brands that folks can check out online to see what we are talking about.

First is called the “Millennium Bar” which have about 400 calories per bar and come in 6 flavors that I know of.

Next is one called “Mainstay” which comes in 1200, 2400, and 3600 caloric levels per bar. One flavor, but are fully fortified with A, B1, B2, D, E, B7, B12, and nicacin, Iron, folic acid and a bunch of other goodies. Each bar can also be broken down into 400 calorie segments.

Next is one called the SOS Food Bar. “formulated to provide balanced minimum daily diet when you have limited drinking water” “US Coast Guard and SOLAS approved”

Last one is called “Datrex Food Bars.” Subpackaged in 200 calorie increments. “tastes like coconut shortbread”

The Millenium Bar is the cheapest at 99 cent (US) each. The others run $3.75 to $7.45 (US) per bar … at least as I’ve priced them at Emergency Essentials.

Kathy in FL – at 20:42

Encourage individual or group participation in gardening activities:

1. Victory Gardens a la those from WWII

2. Find “renewable” produce such as “cut-and-come-again” type greens/lettuce (which also grows quickly, some varieties ready for first harvest in less than 4 weeks), cherry tomatoes (the more you pick, the more they produce), varieties of zucchini and squash that are hyperproductive.

3. Education and encouragement in the area of wild food foraging: acorns (require leeching before use but will replace some flour in any recipe), flowers (buds, blossoms, and petals), wild fruits and berries, edible tubers, etc.

4. Encourage the practice of edible landscaping and/or xerascaping.

5. Encourage the use of the whole plant vs. just the tastiest parts, for example:

MaMaat 20:43

Okieman, I think your idea could really work. In areas where the infrastructure is present anyhow. Who could do it though? Is this something we could take to our regional politicians, ag reps, community planners? Or are we looking perhaps at something that would need to be a commercial enterprise to work?

Timber, glad to see you back:-) I hope all has been well with you and yours.

Okieman – at 21:01

MaMa, I would think it would have to be Federal & State in a joint operation with cooperation from private/commercial industry. This would be the sort of thing to work out ahead of time, not after pandemic has hit.

MaMaat 21:07

Okieman, for sure that would have to be done prior to pandemic. Definitely something to talk to our local Member of Parliment and the local Grain bord rep. Can’t hurt to try.

3l120 – at 21:34

If things go realllly bad, there will be shortages of foodstuffs in one part of the country and overages in others. And the overages will vary depending on the region.

For example, in Milford, UT there is a Circle4 pigfarm with millions of porkers. There are also flocks of sheep, raised for wool and corn crops. Within a month, there will be a lot of dead pigs as their Pig Chow runs out. Where I used to live in California there were herds of dairy cattle. Farmlands will have other crops. The problem will be getting these crops and meat to market, especially into the big cities where there is no food supply once the warehouses run dry. If the trucking industry stops how do you feed millions of city dwellers? Military convoys? How many longhaul truckers are there? And how do you replace them? For that matter, how do you get a million hogs anywhere? I live 50 miles south of Milford and that might as well be 5000 miles if the gas supply ends.

crfullmoon – at 22:09

Go back to having cattle drives, horse-drawn carts, walking pigs home on leashes…? (What about the mammals getting H5N1…?)

lbb – at 22:16

You drive the stock to market. You can’t herd chickens but you can herd cattle, sheep, goats, pigs, even geese.

15 May 2006

lugon – at 04:33

Ok, folks, my notebook - please add your own thinking on this “food” matter. I may be fully wrong - use as starting point.

Then I did some work on this Aim: healthy and sufficient food at each doorstep, once a week or more often. After some structured work (look for “lateral thinking” on the net), I could come up with the following ideas or beginning of ideas:

Ok, this was it for now.

lugon – at 05:44

http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/004422.html “Wal-Mart goes organic?”

Just to show that convincing (or helping organise) one player can go a long way. Provided of course that player plays nicely, which I’m not sure about - check the comments to the worldchanging.org story.

Better still if that one player nicely convinces competitors to go down the same route or even do better.

Anyone sees a pattern here? Wish for a trend, look out for signs of the trend, think of ways to help that trend.

Not sure I’ve seen a real trend. I tend not to trust big corps. Ah, well.

Mari – at 09:42

Farmers in the U.S. currently export much of what they grow or feed it to cattle (think corn and soybeans). And there’s talk of starting to burn food and manure for fuel as a way to deal with our “addiction” to foreign oil. I expect we’d all have to stop eating meat except as an occasional treat, and learn to love soybeans.

Changes in what food is grown and where get into water issues. In the southwest, you can only use water in an irrigation ditch that runs through your property up to the maximum amount stated in your water right. No water right, no legal right to use any of the water. And if you don’t live in the mountains or on one of the few rivers & streams, getting water relies on power to pump it out of (usually) deep aquifers.

Kathy in FL – at 10:42

Mari – at 09:42

America’s hyper-dependence and/or non-self sufficient lifestyles began back in the Industrial Era. Back when with the advent of big machinery a large business could create a monopoly because they could underprice local markets.

That principle carries over into today’s market with farming and agriculture at all levels. The large corporate farm drove most of the smaller farms out of business in the 70′s and 80′s. My grandparents, uncle, and some cousins were driven out of farming by this in Kentucky.

The ONLY way that I see a continuity of healthy food supplies for the individual, under pandemic economic stresses, is a return to the local resouce, supply, and demand system.

There are problems even with that scenario however.

No one group can effectively and constructively provide all the food stuffs and their associated needs (cooking oils, herbs, spices, salts, etc.).

The economic impact of redistributing the large supplies of warehoused grains and other foods will be astronomical and there will still need to be the legal seizure of these supplies from the people that own them … corporations, large farming families, etc.

Kathy in FL – at 10:59

Going back to someone’s idea of keeping locally grown produce/products local.

This has merit even if the “have not” areas might not be too happy about it. My reasons for this are:

1. Issues of fuel, transportation, and fair distribution.

2. Changes in diet will cause its own set of problems if you start trying to feed a group of people who have been used to eating rice with wheat (will they even know how to cook it?) such as stomach ailments, unknown allergies, etc.

3. Probably more waste of a product/produce if it is being sent into an area unfamiliar with its preparation, etc.

However, there are bound to be products that are going to HAVE to be shipped in a larger area.

1. Rice from the rice belt of the USA. How much of that is kept in the US and how much is exported?

2. Sugar cane from south Florida. Even cutting consumption back 75%, sugar is still a valuable and viable commodity that other areas will want.

Some solutions for the descrepancies in markets/locations:

1. Find substitutes. For instance, I mentioned sugar … what are some locally available sweeteners that could replace granulated white sugar (i.e., honey, sorghum, molasses, sap syrups a la maple, etc.)

2. If Community “A” has a good product/produce in surplus to the community’s needs, they can see if the next community over - Community “B” - has something that they could trade the surplus for. This is the old barter system expanded.

3. Break down the farming to an even more individual level by encouraging zone appropriate produce gardens at the family level. (Or neighborhood level). This does break the idea of SIP somewhat, but if all available food stuffs are exhausted due to just-in-time production, this may be the only way.

4. Stop the international exports until - and only until - each country’s own citizenry is fed. For instance, the USA doesn’t export any grains/soy beans out until the furtherest market has been supplied within rations. The Ukraine also grows a lot of grain and would do the same thing. Asian countries might want to reconsider their exportation of rice products. Etc.

I might add that any supplies left over AFTER all a nation’s citizenry has received their rations could be used to trade with countries that are food poor but oil rich. Again, a form of the barter system.

Mari – at 11:03

What might be useful in this context is a map showing what types of food are grown where in a country and what types of food are imported from where. For example, I’ve seen fruit from South America in the grocery stores (out of season as far as the U.S. is concerned). The relative amounts of food imported from another country (use Mexico as an example) will depend on transportation economics, so a map could show a different color intensity, fading to white for “very little imported”. Anybody know of places to get this kind of information? Some food items can’t easily be grown in the U.S., if at all (think of chocolate and coffee - not essential for existence, but sure would be missed!) Next there are inputs and outputs for processed food . . .

Kathy in FL – at 11:17

One of the less pleasant ideas to contemplate may very well be that, in the event of a pandemic with a high CFR, there may not necessarily be a problem with lack of supplies.

Yes, the goal is to believe that everyone has the potential to survive a pandemic, but reality shows us that there are going to be some deaths. How many has been discussed long and long by people better suited for it than I.

For example: If the CFR of the hypothetcial pandemic from H5N1 maintains its current lethality … somewhere around 50% … that means:

1. We cut the need for food by half.

2. That need could potentially be covered by ending exports internationally from any given country until self-sufficiency is re-established.

3. Same “surplus” we are talking about in already planted fields, silos, etc. but being spread out over a number half of what it is currently expected to cover.

Kathy in FL – at 11:23

Here is a 1992 Agriculatural map of the USA. I assume other countries would have something similar.

Kathy in FL – at 11:23

Whoops, here is the link for the 1992 Agricultural map of the USA.

http://www.nass.usda.gov/census/census92/atlas92/html/

lugon – at 12:25

No-one assured us this would be easy.

In other words: bump!

MaMaat 12:58

A possible option for some areas: are there commercial fisherman in your area (fresh or saltwater). Do they have boats and equipment that can run without gas, or would your community be willing to allocate some of the possibly scarce fuel to their work.

I fish with my Dad’s 5 person crew each spring(with nets) in Lake Manitoba and we have caught as much as 10–15,000 pounds of fish in a single day. The only gas used is a little for the boat motor and to get the truck and trailer the approx.10 miles to and from town and the lake. This fishing is done in the shallows close to shore and the boat and barge both could be towed (tho that would be really slow and labor intensive) by people walking. We are primarily a fishing and farming community, quite a few people have horses- perhaps a team of horses could be used to pull the trailer to and from town?

It’s an idea anyway and could be modified to suit the type of fishing done in your area.

RipleyRulesat 13:21

For good seeds, try rareseeds.com. You can order their catalog and it is FULL of heirloom fruits and vegetables, they are who I ordered from this year.

Things they have that I can think of off the top of my head: red, yellow, and white-flesh watermelons, european-type melons, asian greens, lettuces (romaine-types, arugula, etc), yellow,green,striped,white,pink, red, and purple tomatoes (in both regular size and “grape” or “cherry” or even “roma” varieties)….beets, broccoli, cauliflower (including purple varieties that are supposed to be easier to grow than white), and LOTS of beans, many of which have a description of where they come from, helping you find something perfect for your area.

Our idea for long-term food shortage (more than a year)… we have (or will have) a small garden just large enough to keep our family going. Of course we will have to defend it from others (which I hate to do, but I will certainly do it if necessary). We are learning how to save seeds, and we will save plenty from each crop. Then, next season, (or even sooner for some vegetables… for example, you can have radish seeds within 4–5 weeks of planting the original plant), we will A) make our garden larger and get out neighbors to help guard and tend it in return for food for their families, and B) give some seeds away to people we know in other areas of our town. Then they can do the same thing.

I didn’t know there was so much to saving seeds, so, my advice is, get books or print info or otherwise learn how to NOW,otherwise you could end up with some monster inedible craziness after replanting your saved seeds! Some things are simple, but others are disasters waiting to happen…

Mari – at 13:26

Kathy in FL - thanks! Those agricultural maps are just the kind of maps I was looking for.

Jane – at 13:54

In the container gardening thread, there’s an idea of growing baby greens in shallow plastic boxes in a sunny window. For a family, that would mean shelves of boxes because the harvest would be rather meager, though fresh and desirable. We would have to solve problems with fragility regarding little kids playing indoors all day, eating or digging by cats (screening would help), and visibility from the outside. Also the low strength and duration of sunlight in October through April would cut down on productivity. Renewable source of seeds is problematic, too.

My yard is full of maple seedlings. As I pull them up, I keep wishing they were edible. Perhaps they are? Deer eat them, I found by Googling. Does anyone know if they are harmful or nutritious when they have only 2 or 4 little leaves on a stem?

Kathy in FL – at 14:12

Jane – at 13:54

The cut-and-come-again greens are self renewing. You cut them down leaving “x” inch of plant above the root … most people use gardening shears to do this. The greens continue to grow so you aren’t having to use the succession planting idea.

Another way with cut-and-come-again greens is harvesting a leaf at a time.

My problem is that I live in Florida and that I sometimes forget that most other places have a much shorter growing season. In Tampa we have nearly 365 day growing season … you just have to know what to grow/harvest during each month of the year.

Other places could use moveable cold frames to extend the growing season. Or even indoor grow-lightes for growing things in the basemet or in a room without much light. Hey, they do it with marijuana … why not with something nutritious?

crfullmoon – at 14:36

Try the library for books on edible wild plants in your area (watch out for those that may be contaminated by pollutants, let alone the ones similar to anything poisonous).

Seed Savers Exchange is a non-profit, trying to keep our food supply genetically diverse, and has “heirloom” seeds.

If your library doesn’t have the second edition of “Seed to Seed” by Suzanne Ashworth, ask them to buy it.

Did we sneak solar ovens in here, yet? Some food has to be cooked, and some communites could buy or build and practice using these now. http://solarcooking.org/

2beans – at 15:34

It’s important to keep in mind the degree to which agriculture has been mechanized when we disuss staple crops. Rice is, for the most part, sewn by cropduster type planes now. I’m not certain how many folks would still know how or when to do it by hand but this information needs to be “banked”.

Sahara – at 15:59

Okieman @ 16:29 - The wonderful food writer M. F. K. Fisher wrote a book called “How to Cook a Wolf.” There is a chapter called “How to Keep Alive” in which she describes a depression-era dish she invented called “sludge.” Sludge was a fifty-cent mixture of readily available ingredients designed to feed a family of four and keep hunger (the wolf) at bay. Sludge is 15 cents of ground beef, 10 cents worth of ground whole grain cereal, twenty-five cents worth of cheap vegetables (carrots, celery, onions, cabbage). All of this is cooked and mixed together into a paste. You can eat it hot or cold. Nutritious, but depressing.

Sludge brings to mind that most of the world lives on food like this. If our infrastructure collapsed, we’d find ourselves like the majority of people on this planet; eating a frugal diet of locally produced ingredients without much variety, if we were lucky enough to have any food at all.

Kathy in FL – at 16:03

2beans – at 15:34

That brings up a very important point. The last two generations are so “ignorant” when it comes to agricultural issues … at least those they would need to know if they had to provide their own food.

As savvy as I think I am I still had no idea that rice was planted by cropduster. Learn something new every day. Even my own grandparents, farm of about 100 acres, were mechanized … combines, sprayers, etc. And they were dependent on chemical fertilizers and pest control.

There is a big disconnect between what the individual will need to provide for their family in the event of a worst case pandemic and the common knowledge that we have.

anonymous – at 16:42

Some things you might research in your immediate area:

1) Are you near any farms, orchards, ranches, nurseries or greenhouses (say within 20–25 miles of your home or place of work)? If so find out what they grow and sell and whether they sell to the public. In the case of greenhouses & nurseries, find out what edible things they sell.

2) Are you close to a farmer’s market? If so visit and befriend the farmers who farm close to you and find out what they grow to sell at the market.

3) Do a web search in your area regarding CSAs (community supported agriculture). If you find out there is one (or more) near you, look into joining - these types of growing arrangements originated in Japan and directly link farmers and growers to the ultimate consumers.

anonymous – at 16:47

One more place to learn about agriculture is RFDTV (a TV network available to subscribers of DISH Network and Direct TV) Their website is http://www.rfdtv.com

wetDirt – at 17:20

Okieman, I think the TMR for people idea is a good start, with one change: the mix needs to be at least cracked, and better crushed or coarsely ground to meal. If there was a way to have a grinder in line with the auger, it would be great. This is because cooking fuel will almost certainly be a problem in urban areas, and coarse meal of almost any composition will cook in less than 15 minutes, while wholegrain (pinto, lima, navy)beans take 3 hours during which time rice will turn to mush.

As far as composition, any mix of bean-things and grain-things in something like a 1/3:2/3 to 1/2:1/2 ratio will work fine. No soybeans, favas, or peanuts. The gluten-free people might need rice as the grain. In fact, let the mix vary over time with whatever becomes available, trying to keep the proportions but not sweating it if it misses one way or the other. Calories first, protein second. A big truck of sweetener following the meal truck would be heaven—corn syrup, molasses, whatever. Add dandelion greens for color and vitamins. Allow 1 pound mash per person per day. To cook: Add 1 part mash to about 2 to 3 parts boiling water. Remove from heat, insulate well for about 20 to 30 minutes. Enjoy. *ducks* *runs*

Okieman – at 17:51

wetDirt – at 17:20 I agree. In my earlier post I mention “grinder/mixers” to grind and mix the combined meal together. In a simplified explanation, in agricultural ginders/mixers, a frontend loader, puts a bucket load (hundreds of pounds) of the ingredient (say corn) into the grinder/mixer, which has a scale to measure the amount. Next the operator of the loader gets a bucket load of the next ingredient and puts it in until the scale says that it is enough. In a commercial feedmills I think they use augers to auger a certain amount of cracked/ground ingredient from one bin, then another auger from a different bin…etc. Then they mix it all together. Sometime it is pelletized.

I think this idea has merit if a catastrophic pandemic occurs and the problem of feeding millions of people occured. I’m sure it would get bland, but at least one would have something to eat until things got better.

Okieman – at 17:53

And yes, some kind of sweetener would make a big difference.

wetDirt – at 19:01

Calculations:

Town of 25,000 * 7 days = (mumble) 87.5 tons Payload weight of semitrailer = 22 tons Trucks needed = 4 per week. A pillowcase would hold 30 lbs, enough for a family of four for a week.

And the US has a positively huge nonfat-dry-milk stockpile, too.

kc_quiet – at 22:57

How expensive would it be to use whatever the cereal companies use to ‘fortify’ with (I assume its artificial vitamins?) How about public service type shows that teach us how to catch and eat (safely) squirrels, etc?

16 May 2006

wetDirt – at 00:07

kc_quiet —

The problem isn’t the expense, it’s the practicality of it. It’s a great idea, but vitamins in bulk might not be available. (Imagine you being in charge, you have no power, and you have to locate a vitamin manufacturer on the other side of the country, who might or might not be open, with no available transport) Vitamin deficiencies don’t happen overnight, a few weeks on survival rations won’t send people over the edge, unless perhaps from boredom. This exercise is not to reinvent the Power Bar, that’s already been done. This exercise is to come up with the maximum survival ration fast for large, starving populations using available foodstuffs and the minimum processing.

lugon – at 04:18

Local currencies for local markets. Now.

NS1 – at 04:59

Barter is the local economy if we come to community isolation.

anonymous – at 06:18

Ezekiel bread developed by Carol Levergood in 1973 when she documented the grains in the bible and created this recipe, and it is reported to contain all the nutrients needed to sustain people. It only seems to lack Vitamin D. You can grind the ingredients to make bread, cook soups, or if you are in very bad way, eat it by the mushy hand full.

These are the ingredients:

2 parts Lentils 2 parts hulled Millet 4 parts Hulled Barley 12 parts Org. Spelt 20 parts Wheat 1 part Great Northern Beans 2 parts Pinto Beans 1 part Small Red beans or Kidney Beans

AAOOB FOODS . COM sells this, and I think it may be a good concept as a mass food for people that could be adopted by local granaries.

24 June 2006

Closed and continued - Bronco Bill – at 01:33

Continued here.

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