Continued from here.
full time lurker, some time poster here. I’ve read through the thread carefully, would like to pursue some of the ideas. But I think one fabric has been overlooked. Last semester I studied the properties of wool for a college sewing class. I know, it itches! But it has natural antibacterials in it, used as diaper covers for centuries to keep smells away. Wicks moisture away from body,would feel dryer on face maybe? Can be felted therefore very dense, possibly antiviral? The felting proccess can shape wool into any shape desired, away from contact with most of the face. Can be made of thin wool (more comfortable). Maybe combine with a Lanolin treatment for softness. I also looked into the properties of silk. Maybe a combination of the two or combined with cotton or a layer of GV. Anyways, I’ll be able to work on this idea this weekend. If it’s comparably as hot as cotton I will let you know. Maybe it will work.
Silk has been used to filter bacteria (cholera) in India. Old saris work better than new ones. Having 1 case of cholera instead of 100 makes sense. (Cholera is not airborne, I know.)
As usual, we need ways to test things. Maybe make two masks and send one (in a no-fuss envelope, with a letter of explanation, or maybe just provide a link to this thread) to the writers of the article mentioned at the beginning of the first thread in this series? Virginia M. Dato, David Hostler, and Michael E. Hahn - University of Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA. (Write to Virginia M. Dato, Center for Public Health Practice, Forbes Allies Center, 3109 Forbes Ave, Ste 210, Pittsburgh, PA 15260, USA; vdato AT pitt DOT edu)
Original article here: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468.htm
Just re-read it. I don’t fully understand how good the masks are. Fit and filter are good concepts but I don’t grasp the jargon. Please explain if you do understand it!
monica so cal: wool, my first consideration is that its very hot.. And that wool is not a very comon “standard” raw material. there are such a hughe number of woll “knittings” that it will be difficult for us to get the message out. Second anti-bacterial growth is a very diferent thing then kiling viruses. We need some dokumentation if so.
lugon: silk, is it realy awailible? my first idea was the syntetic version of it, what we in norway call “sateng” or “satin” to be used as the front layer, it is very tight woven, and may be god to stop dust particals.
SCW AZ: please continue nailing drawbacks on any sugestion, its good :)
Coment on the newstory about tshirt mask: They have a different goal in their critic. We should not try to create a complete N95 soultion, my hope is to create a “sosial standard” that will make sure everybody uses one mask type or the other. Then we have created a indirect protetion for everybody. And the tool to do so, is to make a DYI guide for the internet, it will also be a nice medium for getting out the rules of hygiene and proper mask usage. But we can not guarante a certain % protection, because there will be variations in every mask. And to make this variations the smallest posible, we need to use raw materials that is very homogen an common. If we then has created a mask with a high % protection for the vearer it will be a greatly bonus. But main goal is to make it as simple and awailible as posible for everyone, with or without money. Just to stop the spread out from the user when coughing, shouting etc.
The 8 layer tshirt design is heavy to breath in, and that will lower its numbers of users… it also very ugly.. A new design is needed..
It could be posible to make a two level mask. SimpleMask 1 and SimpleMask 2, one way could be that nr 2 has gentian violett (or some other chemical) dyed into the middle layer. (this would increase the % protection, but the rest of the design could be similar.
keep up the good work ! :)
I have studied the recommendations made here. Just a little information on silk masks. I found a website that mentions that you have to wash thse silk masks in cool water, not hot. You have to handwash these masks, and you can not rub the silk as it can re-arrange the natural weave of the silk and make the mask less effective at filtering. You can however, wash with hydrogen peroxide.
Also mentions after about 60 washings, the mask becomes more efficient at filtering, so you have to wash it more frequently, about every 2–3 hours instead of every 4–6 hours.
Just adding my two cents on info about silk masks.
Lets try that link again. Sorry www.icanbreathe.com/photo.htm
great link, interesting design featurers we could use. This mask are not N95 with virus protection, but they probably does well the feature to stop arerosols out from a infected person. And probably stops any virus from riding as a pasenger on dust and other small paricles. The more industries that produces washable masks the better.
Vinegar: any luck in finding out if dry vineager works? My guess is that it dont. But maybe the moisture from the breath is enough to make a sour enviroment inside the layers..? But I belive that dry vineager is the same as no vinegar..
Could it be posible to mix vinegar with some gel like substance? To keep it from drying out ? And final question, how harmful is it to the breath acid fumes from vinegar? Will you get soure in the face? eyes hurt?
Another link to the simple mask is here. She said she “definitely” would wear such a mask in the event a pandemic caused N-95 masks to be unavailable but added that she would be extremely cautious when handling it. So it looks like it’s better than nothing - but how much better is unclear to me at this point. (I must sleep more.) Yet another link with the content of the original article is here.
There are other masks (or are they the same?): here: Homemade Mask – Dry T-shirt or bath towel folded twice (4 layers thick) may offer some protection against droplets. For masks to work properly, a snug fit is important. The mask should fit tightly around the mouth and nose. Some experts recommend taping the edges of the mask to the face.
Holy Grail - Fabric
From Rueters News
We can follow up with this university. . .
Just home, TONS on my plate, tired. . . TOMORROW!!!!!!!
The silk mask is very expensive, but I like the way it’s constructed to give the mouth and nose some room. Urdar-Norge, some of us don’t have such sour breath ;> but i gave up trying to test with the ph strips, because they have to be in liquid to show anything. I personally feel that vinegar is a very safe substance, even good to drink a little, but you’re probably right that it won’t work dry. OK, next idea? A gel would clog up the fabric. No good. Maybe satin on the outside is good. Things slide off of it. Sew, a sandwich of t-shirt, towel and satin, like a fancy quilt. Quilting is a way to give something shape and will keep the inside layer from sticking to the face. , But, it makes tiny holes from the stitches. No good. Or, quilt the t-shirt to the towel, then add the satin later. OK, how’s that sound?
I just realized how long something like that would take to dry after you wash it. It might mildew before it dries. Maybe better to keep the layers seperate and put together when you wear them.
bump
bump
My first post !. I am wondering why everyone is pre-occupied with half face masks ?. If one really needs to make ones own PPE, it would be much simpler to make a Powered Air Pressure Respirator than an effective face mask. The PAPR hood respirator would be much more comfortable to wear and up to 1000 times more efficient at keeping the virus out. It also has the advantage that it can be used by people with weak or under developed lungs, such as infants. PAPR’s can also be de-contaminated and re-used. More info can be found at … http://com1.runboard.com/bbirdfluuk . I am just wondering if I have missed something here ?.
Virkon - thanks for your first post, and welcome!
“Powered Air Pressure Respirator”. I’ve just googled for it (the link you provide is in the process of making a backup so not accessible right now) and I can’t be sure, but it looks like “powered” means batteries or a plug, so not for millions of people.
Anything that adds up to making it more difficult for the virus to pass from person to person will be a good thing, but in this thread we’re focusing on inexpensive ways for millions of people.
The rationale here is that we might slow things down in every community: less people ill at any one time, somewhat easier to manage. No single PPE will be perfect, but if we have time to look for or develop the most effective things, and manage to make them work world-wide, then we are buying time.
Others are helping with vaccines, but we can’t help there.
Just another cooperative piece in the puzzle.
Inexpensive ways for millions of people who will not have anything else but “simple masks” and “simple doable day-to-day procedures”.
If we have a package ready, it can be translated and copied in no time and maybe help millions.
Vikron - respirators are not available in children’s sizes either. While I plan to keep my children home there may be a a need to take them out and like them to have some type of protection. I might be able to devise a simple mask at home and place it over a disposable one. Not ideal but better than no porection at all.
I saw posts on the previous thread about Gentian Violet. I may hae missed why some thought this would be a good thing to add to masks. But, I have used it before to treat a thrush (yeast) infection I and my newborn had years back. It is hard to find - my pharmacy had to order it and it took a few days to find a supplier and get it in. And, it so sooooo messy. It stains everything - skin, fabric, you name it. However, it does fade significantly after washing in hot water. So if you were treating masks with it you’d likely have to reapply the GV after a washing - I’m not sure that it would be effective after washing. I don’t think it was expensive but it comes in teeny, tiny bottles.
“Quilting is a way to give something shape and will keep the inside layer from sticking to the face” this is important, I was thinking to propose the use of glue instead of tread, I just have to ask you how comon it is.. I belive hotglue will not stand the 100´C temperature of boiling,, But some silicones could do that, but then again, it will higher the expenses. And for poor countries make it imposible to obtain.. Lets say that the mask is sewed by hand or machine. I realy dont belive the holes made will be a problem.. but it could be made with thin layer of any type of constructing silcone.. and one regular tube would be enough for 50 masks.. maybe this thin line of silkone on the edges will increase the fit by making it stiffer. And a small droplet in the middle to keep inner layer away from mouth. It will be quiker than sewing by hand…
thx lauraB. i am afraid that GW will not be our soultion, its sad becuse it was very promising. Lets hope som industrials sees thise idea, and have the knowhov to stabilice the pigment so it can stand the hot water, and to produce and sell resuable masks in large qunatites.
then the final question for us will be: how good is (from outside in) 1 layer of satin, 1 layer of microfiber, 1 layer of 100cotton. Made in a good fit, and no sewing holes right trhu (by folding a smart way, or by using silocone as binding)
if this i measurable by a lab, then maybe adding layers of microfiber, or cotton is the way to go. But the numbers of layers must not be so highe that breathing is dificult (like the 9 layer tshirt mask)
For small childern (infants?) i beliwe a mask is the wrong idea. Hard to control those little hands. Maybe a hood is better? And its logical that if breahting thru a small area (like a mask) you need a very fine filter due to the high airpresure. But a hood covering the hole head cold maybe be just one layer of hepa filter , satin or microfiber. It could be enough to catsh any virus in such a slow airstream.. also to be investigated and verified by the pro.
the last layer was suposed to be “Hanes Heavyweight 100% cotton tshirt”…
Hi lugon.
I am interested in the infant respirator situation, mainly because if a child develops a non-H5N1 condition they may have to be taken to a hospital waiting room, which may not be the healthiest place on earth. All infant respirators have to be powered to suck the air through a standard respirator filter. However that does not have to mean electrical power. I think it has only been in recent years that electrical blowers have been used. All previous models used a hand pump. I have included an illustrated historical background on that link, as well as modern infant respirators. You will note thatt not one single modern respirator has provision to use a hand pump for back up. I would think that for Katrina Stadium type situations a hand pump would be essential.
So far everything I have done has been in isolation and I have had no chance to discuss anything, with anyone else. If there is anyone interested in the production of PAPR’s at community level, I would love to hear from them. I have also included some details about the 1941 Hawaiian gas mask project for infants and children. The details are under Virkon’s Workshop at http://com1.runboard.com/bbirdfluuk . Thank you for your reply.
Hi Urdar-Norge. I agree that a PAPR hood is the only way to go for infants, children and adults. Masks should never be used on children below the age of three.
Virkon. I agree that a complety different system than masks are needed for the smaller childrens. Maybe a coopertive tread on the subject is needed. when it comes to make hood style solution for grovnups, I think its a dead end. People is not going to wear them in large numbers. And remember that the goal of the “simple mask” is not to create a 100% safe mask, its for making a regime of “everyones wears a mask”, anytype is good. As long as its awailable for everyone, for every day for a long period of time. And that soultion is as you say, not going to come from the industry due to the legal problems.
I would agree that almost any kind of unvalved mask would be a good idea to fit on an infected patient, to contain their droplets.
As for grownup’s … who needs to wear a mask of respirator ?. I think it would probably only need to be those who have to have contact with an infected person (ie a carer)… Or anyone having to enter a supect environment (ie a hospital waiting room). Obviously profesional medical staff need to be effectively protected and I do not believe they will get that protection even from an FFP3/N100 half face mask, because of the mask fit problem.
On the ‘legal’ problem, even if the government accept liablity, it still does not make the masks any more effective and they could have an APR less than that of even a surgeons mask. We simply cannot afford to lose a large percentage of our doctors, nurses, carers and essential workers because of mask fit and lack of effective de-contamination when de-masking. Thank you for your reply.
The trick to quilting is to do it in two layers, with the stitches not superimposed. You butterfly the thing along one side, and quilt one side one way, and the other side the other way in such a way that the quilting lines don’t line up wehn folded back together. When you sew the sides together, you do it like setting a collar, sewing inside out around three sides, flip rightside out and sewing all but one layer of the last side, then bringing the last layer over the stitiching the other way and hand-stitching the last seam by not going through all layers. Impossible to describe, but it’s like how a shirt collar is sewn on, except without the final topstitching.(and without the shirt, either)
Sorry all …. Hangs head in shame. PAPR stands for Pressurised Air Purifying Respirator, I must have been having a ‘senior’ moment !.
wetDirt. Good idea; why didn’t I think of that? And quilting is quick and easy with a needle and thread. It makes good sense.
So, the first 2 layers can be quilted on machine, then, after assembling the parts and flipping, the top layer can be quilted half-way through the thickness by hand, just a few joining stitches. Does that work? I can see it being very fast work. What about ties that won’t break from constant use? Or elastic that won’t lose it’s stretch?
A friend just told me That mask thing may be the single most important thing we do.
It’s just not solved yet. ;-)
If we were to think big - who would we ask for help? MIT? Nanotechs? People with electronic microscopes? People on the ground (whatever that means)?
I have a neighbour who is good with a hammer and nails. I’ll ask.
SCW AZ I would like to boldly give a word of encouragement/caution to you any others who have valuable input to this project. When you give of your best ideas and experience in this kind of situation, first of all you might get put down, then people remember what you suggested and copy it, taking credit for it themselves. There’s no money coming at the end of the week, no awards luncheon, no crowds watching and holding their breath to see what you have to offer, possibly no credit at all. But you give your best because you want a future for your grandchildren, or your cousins’ grandchildren. When you see your ideas catching on and helping people then you can quietly pat yourself on the back and know you were part of it.
I hope you do continue to contribute.
Lorelle – at 18:42
Shoelaces. I don’t know of elastic that won’t wear out; I don’t think it exists.
OK, plenty of those around. I have a tangle of shoelaces I’ve been saving for some reason or another. I had a funny idea. In a pinch, for those who don’t sew, maybe ex-lg shoulder pads, like from a man’s jacket, could be made to fit a face.
http://www.bblackandsons.com/store/product158.html Here’s one type. Doesn’t have measurements.
Lorelle – at 18:42 What about ties that won’t break from constant use? Or elastic that won’t lose it’s stretch?
Twill tape is strong and wouldn’t wear easily. Bathing suit elastic takes many washings in chlorine and is less apt to lose its stretch. How about 500+ thread per inch 100 percent cotton percale? It seems that this would be a tighter weave than T-shirt fabric which is very loosely woven. And cotton muslin might be a better alternative, too. As far as the quilting goes, this could be done on the inner layers leaving the outer layer unstitched. Cotton could also be used in a “sandwich” with wool as the center component.
But what I would really like to know is, do the manufacturers of N95 fabric make this material available for purchase on the bolt? I asked this question several months ago somewhere else and have also looked for the answer but haven’t found it. After all, they do make the N95 masks with it in factories. So someone must be selling it.
So perhaps the design of the “make-shift” mask should be modular in thinking, so as to allow for a standard design with swappable elements (ie use N95/cotton muslin/T-shirt fabric for this pattern piece). That would allow people to use the best they have available, but they could use the same design even with lesser, available materials.
such a good working climate on this tread :D ok rubberbands… the white and long ones mainly used by post services here in Norway. You also got them yes? you can also make long daicychained rubber band with many small ones. They will last for a while, but kan be fastend in such a way that replecament is done easy. Metal stitches (like the office paper type) will rust.. But that is minor problem. The rubber band kan also be sewed on. If you punkture the rubber it will not last long, it has to be a tread going around it.
Round rubber strings used in typcal sports clothing.. They are a little bit hard to find new,, you can buy them at shops that sells sewing stash etc, they are very solid and lasts very long, even after wash. If people has some clothes with this bands in, they may use them.
It has to be elastic, shoelases will not do the trick, when you talk etc..
Shoulder pads.. made by expanded polystyrene is a material we hawe not looked at. It is fluffy, so it can do the purpose of making the mask thick for fit.. but I newer seen it used as a filter of any kind, so it may not have the right charakter.. (mayby the surface is to smooth, so no particles get stuck…) One the other hand its effective at keeping liquids, and could be something to investigate to use as a layer of vinegar soaked virus killer..
We need a volaintere to find out if vearing a vineagar soaked sponge in front of face is very harmful or not, my gueass is that the eyes will hurt..
just to have it covered, the useage of colodial silver is well established in water filters, my limited knowlegde of chemistry tell me that water is esential in such a use, and that it wont be effektive in airfilter. Also silver is not a material we may call common awailible..
I sent an email to a well-known vinegar company asking if they know about the safety of breathing it for hours at a time. Hope they respond. Rubber-band chains are easy, but will it be tight enough, or too stretchy?
wetDirt, I’ll clear off my sewing maching and try some things if you will too. It sounds like you know something about making things from scratch.
Happy Father’s Day! Talk to you-all later.
bumpeti bumpeti bum bum bump
Can someone summarize the “aim” and the “design issues” and “who might help”?
That sounds like a good job for you, lugon. You’re pretty good at that type of thing.
I made 2 masks from what I have. Both have a stiff cotton on the inside and silk satin on the outside. Started with 8″ X 11″, size of a page. I tried something called “interfacing” which is a gauzy thin material used to strengthen collars, etc. I know it is washable, so it might work to create the puffiness without bulk. I used a piece twice the length of the cotton layer and made lots of pleats while attaching it to the cotton. (bumpety bump) ^^^^^ Then I made darts in the cotton layer for the chin and nose so it curves around them. Then I gathered the 8″ sides to about 4″ and sewed. I added the satin part, already shaped and darted to match, right sides together leaving one side free and then flipped to make the puffy mask. I tucked in the open side and sewed shut. By hand I sewed one rubber band to the outside (less likely to create gaps) of each corner, spreading the stitches out so the pressure is not all in one spot. (Wish I could illustrate it) Just sew around the end of the rubberband for about 1/4″ so it’s less likely to cut through. Then, start adding rubberbands until the length is good, connecting all four with one big on at the back of the head. You’ll have to tie the last one of course.
2 problems so far: It’s hot! And I feel air coming in around the nose. It needs something to pinch or tape it around the top of the nose and keep it away from the eyes.
It is easy to breathe and comfortable; maybe I can paint a smile on the front.
I just think cotton batting will take too long to dry. Think of washing an old fashioned quilt, how long that takes.
Now, if the companies would just make washable masks, we wouldn’t have to look like fools inventing it ourselves!
that’s the idea - build prototypes then have them stolen by the industry (think garage computers and big-name companies)
and yes, i’ll do the summary one of these days
gotta start a thread about not enough sleep
lugon crawls
I read an idea, on a different thread, about using a surgical mask over an n95. You would just dispose of the surgical mask and keep the n95 (I think still disinfecting it- maybe in the sun for a few days). It was a way to have masks without stocking thousands of them . Would a better option be to use the n95 and make a thinner version of the tshirt mask, to go over? That way you could reuse the cover(tshirt mask) after disinfecting. I don’t know if the other thread resolved the issue of efficiency of this method, but would appreciate any comments, as I can’t afford to stock thousands of masks!
please keep in mind that after any potential flu exposure, ANY mask has to be handled as CONTAMINATED. Disposable isolation masks are disposable for a reason. They are a potent source of self infection. Donning and doffing (sp?) masks and PPE must be done with strict adherence to isolation technique.
I read somewhere a few months ago about an alcohol soaked cotton ball or material which was being used in the same way vinegar is being contemplated here - as something to breathe through. This was in some old poster or newspaper clipping from a health department or some such in the 1918 era.
I would imagine that the alcohol might be a little more lethal to virii than vinegar, and it wouldn’t too be harmful if ingested (plus people breathe their own alcohol fumes without dire consequences). It would also be good to rub your hands and face with alcohol once you’d touched a contaminated mask to remove it.
I believe they used something called birds eye cotton in multiple layers back then for making masks. They used this same cotton for diapers, bandages, and other surgical uses, too. Cotton was used a great deal because it takes well to boiling. (Speaking of which, my mom often mentioned that her mother wouldn’t dream of not boiling all the sheets and pillow cases in a big vat). I didn’t get a good mental picture of what that must have been like until we moved into an old house that had a 10 foot square chimney/fireplace/oven type thing in the middle of the kitchen floor with must have been a 40 gallon black cast iron cauldron built into one side of the oven. This puzzled me until my mom told me they used those kinds of things for boiling laundry way back when.
My Sicilian grandmother hung heads of garlic around her kid’s necks in a position where they had to breathe it when they had a cold or flu. This was sometime after the 1918 influenza. She lost one of her kids (an 18 month old) to the 1918 flu). This sounds like witchcraft on the face, but when you think about it, they have found since then that garlic has antibiotic properties. So there may be something to say for some kinds of inhalants (but I wouldn’t want to bank on it).
After looking at the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) for acetic acid (vinegar), I don’t think I’d want to be breathing it for prolonged periods.
Bear in mind that common vinegar is only around 5% acetic acid, so it might not be as bad as the article (didn’t get a chance to read it-gotta run). Still, I’d go with the alcohol. I think it would be better because it evaporates and would be more likely to get into the air passages to neutralize what might be lurking there after an exposure.
monica so cal – at 03:03 I just now paid attention to what you were saying about wool, and felt in particular. I think the fact that it can be molded into shape is interesting. Would it be a good filter, or would you have to cover it with satin or something? Remember the felt hats men used to wear? They were very durable. Please let us know what you can find out about it.
Isopropal alcohol is toxic. This is not a good idea.
In the food section of the paper the other day I’ve read an article about new food gadgets: food gadgets.
I’ve checked the web site for Sanitizing System (found an idea of cleaning with ‘ozone’ water kind of interesting) and noticed Microfiber Cleaning Cloths that you might consider to use for masks: http://www.tersano.com/, may be even in combination with ‘ozone’ water.
Sea Urchin – at 15:13 --- I would imagine that the alcohol might be a little more lethal to virii than vinegar, and it wouldn’t too be harmful if ingested (plus people breathe their own alcohol fumes without dire consequences). It would also be good to rub your hands and face with alcohol once you’d touched a contaminated mask to remove it.
As a kid (and as most kids do), I collected bugs. To “terminate” them with no physical harm, I’d put them in a small jar with a cotton ball soaked in Isopropyl Alcohol. They were dead in about 15 minutes. Breathing alcohol is definitely not a good idea, as Melanie says…
Maybe she meant drinking alcohol. Just a little less deadly. I think I would try the garlic first.
In order for alcohol to be effective against a virus, it must come into contact with the virus. Just the odor of alcohol won’t be effective…
If the aim is to come up with a mask that can be made by most people (we are not just talking US, but worldwide), rubber bands and shoelaces are out. I’m thinking a system of layers, with 1st, 2nd and 3rd choice fabrics. Maybe 4 or 5 thin layers. You build as many layers as you can source, on the basis that something is better than nothing. Maybe something fluffy around the edges to seal it, like terry towelling; and the whole thing tied round the back of the head. An alternative build - or perhaps in addition - would include a scarf, which could be undone before taking the mask off and dropped into hot soapy water, reducing surface contamination potential and allowing for fashion tastes.
As for antivirals, turmeric and tea tree oil spring to mind. I use turmeric to dye clothes. It cleans up ok and doesn’t require a lot of hot water, just a good soak. Don’t know if it would hold it’s properties this way though. Tea tree oil is perfect, it is antiseptic, antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, antiparasitic and an immune system stimulant. It’s an essential in my med cabinet. Could be diluted in a water spray and used to spritz the outside of the mask before donning and doffing. It’s also safe for pregnant women, kids, babies, but not so good if you have kidney problems.
I wonder what kind of protection the Muslim habib offers when covering the nose and mouth? (I’ve seen women with a full face habib.) Maybe we are missing the point - something long and loose covering the face may be better.
I believe people in Hong Kong improvised using bra cups during the SARS outbreak. Could make for an easier starting point, wih straps thrown in as a bonus. My bras, however, would really only do for kid’s masks :-p
Kim: vinegar may be weaker than the clean stuff, and even do the trick, but my guess is that is not good in a long period, (very soar brething system is probably not a good idea when dealing vith airborne viruses. Isopropanol: not good for breathing either, but ethanol could work, but again, it would lead to soar troath etc… Using layers made of dispoables:.. the disposables are the problem, they are disposable… Ethanol or Isopropanol in 60–70% is used daily on skin by healthworkers, so thats ok. Ozone: needs fancy equpment, no go for a “simple mask” Lorelle: i would realy like to see your design, a scetch drawing perhaps? urdar@fluwiki.no.. I can post it on www.flwiki.no for others to see, and make proposals, or the mods here can fix it.
Danger of getting infected by a used mask: se tread 1 of this.
I will try to summarice: dont know the pmwiki, and my english s***s We are trying to make a simple DIY (do it your self guide) To spread on the variuos net sites for such. And to do our best that “everybody” has the option of wearing a mask. If this mask also is protecting the wearer its considered a bonus. The higher % protection we can make by using commom materials the better. Goal is at least 7 masks pr person, on “each day” to boilclean, (to disinfect and clean out dust clogging). If we can get this so simple that everyone is able to make mask who are as homogen as posible we can get the effectivenes verified by a lab. And key point is; we dont have to take legal responisbilty on this, WE ARE NOT GOING TO CLAIM IT WILL PROTECT THE WEARER! We will claim that togheter with hand hygiene, etc it will slow the spread massiveliy if everybody is wearing a mask.. Any mask.. And people will search for masks,, It is our responibility that this masks are the best possible :)
And this kind of mask will not be made by the industry, they get sued for anything… But in my opinion they should, and they should be given away for free… And it will be up to the sosial inteligense to make a etikette, that not wearing a mask in public is considered bad…
Using a vinegar soaked mask for long term protection is not a good idea. Breathing vinegar fumes long term (heck, probably even short term) causes spasms (central nervous system), inflammation of the bronchi and larynx, chemical pneumonitis, pulmonary edema, burning sensation, coughing, wheezing, laryngitis, shortness of breath, headache, nausea, damage to tissue of respiratory and digestive tract (hematemesis, bloody diarrhea, edema, &/or perforation of esophogus & pylorus, hematuria, anuria, uremia) cardiovascular collapse, shock, death. (SOURCE: Material Safety Data Sheet for inhallation of vinegar.)
end of vinegar idea: What about Redvine? Whitevine? is it the alcohol, the acid or the antioxidants that does the trick of disinfecting? Is it common enough for daliy use for a entire population, during a pandemic…
What about salt? could we soak one layer, dry it and put it into a pocket in front. Do flu viruses care about dry salt?
My guess is that we have to look to the fabrics.. ladys nylon stockings.. how vould that be.? Cold it be one of the layers? Could it increase fit by its elasticy? Is it posible to sew it, or glue it with silicone?
Imagine how fantastic it could be if we were the ones to discover that microfiber or .. toothpaste treated lady stockings was just as effective as a N95… :D
I’m no mask expert… but, I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express! ;) I have been watching/lurking this thread with great interest. I agree some affordable alternative needs to be thought of, and I can’t help but go back to 1918. The masks they wore helped to some degree, especially when coupled with hygiene practices and social distancing. Whatever mask is used must be replaced often. Soaking in bleach water until washing is an alternative to disposable masks. On a disposable level, I wonder if viral kleenex inserts might work… they already have the chemical agent, tested. I asked my daughter, who is a surgical tech, about the CDC mask. She said they use those in clinical settings now, but the TB masks/N95 are recommended for this and she can’t imagine how in the world there will be enough for a family to “store” for a pandemic. (Not to mention the “fit” delima.) She was concerned that CDC recommended the mask. She asked doctors she works with, who were also concerned. I personally think if the CDC mask could be made to fit securely, it could possibly work. I hope y’all keep working on this idea!
Bump in a thread closing session
Soaking / spraying a mask with anything will reduce the effeciancy of the mask by “clogging” the filtering material and cause the air to want to take the least line of resistance (around the seal). So “wetting” a mask should be eliminated.
From Rueters News: http://tinyurl.com/nrghe
The above linked article from Rueters states that:. . .”U.S. researchers said on Wednesday they had come up with one low-tech answer to widespread shortages of medical equipment — a mask made out of a T-shirt. . .”
A cotton T-shirt “was boiled for 10 minutes and air-dried to maximize shrinkage and sterilize the material in a manner available in developing countries,” they wrote. . . . They cut it into nine pieces and fashioned a mask that had several layers of cotton over the nose and mouth and tied behind the head.
SO, we have a material that can be used, BUT!!!!. . .Such a mask is a poor defense against influenza, except perhaps when used by trained health care workers. . .
So NOT ONLY must we design a mask, we MUST make sure that it is used properly. . .
And the final line in the article: Another danger is “being overconfident — putting on a mask and thinking you are invincible,”
Like the rubberband and shoelace ideas for straps. . . Maybe a combo of both.
Will contact the folks who wrote / were interviewed in Rueters article about info and possible co-operation in getting prototypes tested (long shot???)
Hi all! I found this info while researching N95 fabrics which are used for masks in China. It might give us a lead to something else.
http://www.alibaba.com/catalog/10521057/Face_Mask_Meet_N95_Requirment.html1|materials]]
Sorru, have to try that one another way…
Here’s a design for a simple mask, no elastics or bands need to be sewn in.
On another thread (“thank you wikie 2″) I suggested we could do a presentation (ppp, slide-show) with all the needed information about respiratory prevention. We can develop that as a wikipage (in order to make sure it’s high quality content) and when we’re done then turn that into a presentation (in order to make sure it’s clear, understandable, contagious).
An extra presentation would have the “DIY mask” part, and then we’d have a whole “prevention package”.
Somewhere there could be the not-so-crazy ideas for “asynchronous transfer”, “turn your shop into a pharmacy on duty (no respiratory contact)”, etc. Unofficial but useful and contagious.
All this is starting to look like a bunch of interrelated wikipages. Something like:
Any takers?
Started it. Please add to it!
EnoughAlready: viral kleenex, this will just replace one lacking objeckt with another. My gueass is that viral kleenexes will also be scarse.. but it can be done as long as the chemical is quick enough working (i belive its not), and is not harmfull to breath.
SCW AZ: yes the many layered tshirt mask has been discussed, we asume it has to be “nicer” designed (rubber bands) to make people wearing it. The other thing is that is very hard to breath thru.. But this type of tshirt cotton is our best layer to use so far. The problem of “safe use” is the same with all masks, A DIY will be a good place to inform about propper usage.
Soaking in a liquid.. good point that It will make air go thru the easy (and wrong ) route. Lets focus on materials.
Dizzy: a hood is a posiblity, the larger surface could mean that we use a simpler filter, since no force is used to push virus thru.. But will people wear it?? And problem with scarfs and large cloth thingies are the chances of it getting in the eyes, mouth the wrong way etc.. Turmeric: it is a fabrick color, but does it stay after washing in hot water? And is it antiviral in a dry state? Look for papers! And the usage of essential oils.. It will surely destroy viruses.. but it is sold in small bottels, and will run out…
best sugestions so far: Satin, Microfiber, Towell, Tshirt. - together they are maybe as good as the 9 layer tshirt?? , but easyer to breath thru..? have not tried it yet
Lorelle: have you added the thick copper electrical vire as a nose bend… And how is it to breath thru??
Good thread - about the ppt presentation, I have tried to set a blog site all about PPE and flu/sars, but its still not yet compleeted, a lot to be done. Anita RN pulm
urdar-Norge – I will try to sketch some pictures see if I can scan and e-mail. Also will try some wire for nose. Haven’t done that yet. Great thread, you guys!
http://hasen.en.alibaba.com/product/50135248/50621845/Solid_Face_Mask_Series/Face_Mask.html This mask from Swann at 2:55, when open looks like a similar shape to the one I was trying to make. This one looks nice and simple for manufacturing and shipping. I wonder how cheap it is?
urdar-Norge, turmeric (curcumin, haldi) is primarily a spice, and is potent in a dry state and when added to food, but I don’t know about dry-wet-dry. There is a lot on the internet about it, this link is just one nice example. If you mean scientific research papers, I’ll have a look but I don’t look to the western way as being the only way.
I take your point about essential oils. Great if you’ve got them but yes, bottles tend to be small, although a little can go a long way.
Copper grows verdigris (the green stuff) when it has been treated with ethanoic acid. Verdigris is poisonous. I don’t know if copper electrical wire is treated with this or if it’s just pipes. Aluminium may be better? It’s pliable and doesn’t rust.
electrical vires are covered with plastic , so i think a green nose will not be a problem :D Aluminum tends to break after a while. Solid copperwires are also more common, than thick enough alu thingies.
it seems to be the problem with any chemical /plants etc that it needs a fluid to destroy viruses, Only GV has been reported here as potent enought to do the trick in air..
a new aproach: Glue.. a glue like stuff that virues fasten to.. plased in a middle layer, wia a pocket, rest of mask should be airtight, so all air have to pass the glue. A foam culd be the material, and a glue with no bad solvents, waterbased.. Hmm we need a expert on the protein handles.. Do they fasten to glue? Or is it just to small..
Antistatic: is viruses negative or positive charged??
urdar-Norge – at 07:43
I mentioned the viral protection kleenex because it is an item we are told to have in our preps. Personally, I don’t know if I will be able to do all this chemical stuff if we are sick. It concerns me. I know that I am personally looking for a way to cheaply, reasonably make masks for my family and for my community (if needed.) I come from a family of seamstresses. I own 7 sewing machines, all inherited. As it stands, purchasing masks (which we have done to a small degree) is expensive and relatively cost inefficient. Cross contamination is such a concern. Being able to clean the things is imperative. There has to be a better way. Making these masks seems not only right, but prudent. I have a very large family with many children. On the community level, being able to make the masks to distribute if needed seems so “right.” So… I am very impressed with this thread and the endeavor to create a better way! kudos!
Swann – at 02:47
Material Specification:
PP: Spunbond polypropylene
SMS: Spunbond-meltblown-spunbond
CPE: Crosslinked polyethylene
PE: Polyethylene
LDPE: Low Density polyethylene
PP/PE: Spunbond polypropylene coated polyethylene
This doesn’t sound like material you’d buy at the sewing center! One of my son-in-law’s does AC work… maybe he’d recognize this stuff… sounds more like that kind of “material” to me. Thanks for the info, BTW!
PS--- I wish somebody would brainstorm a way to have a ventilator at home. For patients with pneumonia to get oxygen. Where would you get this without a prescription?
This thread is too wide… can it be fixed?
EnoughAlready this thread is too wide .. can it be fixed you mean there’s sidescroll? Yes, the mods can “fix it”. We can all “prevent it” by creating [[http://www.properlinks.org|proper links]]. (See bottom of this page.)
I made another mask, this time using t-shirt, towel and satin. I found a wire to insert at the top, and it does help. Still not a tight seal, but not so much air is coming from around the nose anymore. I made rough sketches and sent to urdar-Norge – at 20:21 Always room for improvement, but it isn’t so bad.
The wire was a piece cut out of a big cable, silver color and flexible. Don’t know if it will rust.
Can we clarify something please? Is the aim to come up with a mask that everyone, everywhere in the world can use? That is a tough goal. In the developed world it’s likely we’d have better resources, although still there are many who don’t have much. In the developing world there are many areas where people wouldn’t even understand or believe what was happening or take action to prevent it (cf. ebola). And how would they get the information anyway?
Earlier I thought about doing a mask in layers with preferences for fabric, built up depending on what people have available. How about 2 or 3 mask types instead, to cover those who are likely to be able to access or receive and act on the information?
I did a check on turmeric. As I suspected there hasn’t been enough decent research on this. Index Medicus lists multiple potetnial medical uses, although it doesn’t say anything about antiviral. I guess this it’s just not as profitable as tamiflu. One day they’ll concentrate it into something with unnecessary side-effects, like they did with willowbark to make aspirin.
Dizzy 2 or 3 mask types Sure! There’s one already. What I see is those who are really at it (I’m just cheer-leading), are aiming for something different from that one initial design, and getting to know the problem.
Experts in design suggest we bring in the restrictions at a later stage. Real designers have started with “washable” and little else. I believe we shouldn’t go for “affordable everywhere” yet, if only because we don’t know what the final product will look like.
Just my 2 cents of course. :-?
very correct Lugon.. If we started listing any problemm, we could newer be finished. but the fabrick are one thing, if we get a design that has a god fit, there will not be any problem to make it “anywhere” with any material.. So it will could help in the long run as a lousy mask.., But dont forget, masks are made this day.. We and anyone can just copy a good design. Our goal must be to make it as good as posible acording the filter capacity, and the information material that we will use to spread the design.
I would like someone with a english tongue to write down some texts on this, too be used in a final pfd file/web etc, that explaines the idea behind using masks as a collektive protection action.. And with some legal bla bla about “no intention to give propper and verified protection”, “get an N95 mask if so… And a simpel text guide on propper usage of resuable mask, and desinfection of them. etc etc”
It will give me something concrete to work with for a scetch. So can the people with needle and tread get some valeud experience meanwhile.
keep on posting ideas and critics for common materials, etc.
And admins, can you reopen tread 1, so everybody can read it to prevent to many dobble sugestions and debates?
sorry, its linked in the beginning of this one.. my mistake :)
If I remember correctly, the discussion of the value of tumeric was not as an antiviral, but as an anti-inflamitory for cytokine storm. That’s what I bought it for.
Am in agreement with the idea that a flexible pattern that can be used with variety of materials will be good, and also a simple explanation why it might be a good idea. It should be clear even to people who have no idea about viruses and germs etc. The book “Where There are no Doctors” is so inspiring in the way they gave simple to-the-point explanations of medical methods, without disrespecting or disregarding the local customs, even of witchcraft.
When a design (or designs) are created, I would suggest getting a pattern maker (we probably have some on the wiki) to create a simple pattern that can be posted for download and copied to send out as a flyer, mailer, etc. A lot of people (like me) can sew well enough to start making these things in bulk for their communities — perhaps through church quilting and sewing circles? My mom already gets together with others in her church to make quilts to send overseas, perhaps these same groups could make masks to have on hand to distribute to church members, the elderly in the community, etc.?
A group of decent seamstresses or tailors could turn out a lot of masks if they had a good pattern and specifications on the materials to use. If we could have some stockpiles ahead of time for our own communities, wouldn’t that be a help?
Also, this is a project the people in nursing homes or retirement communities could take on — many ladies (and some men!) there do know how to sew. It would be a project where they could really contribute without having to travel, invest a fortune, come in contact with illnesses, etc.
A mask needs a rounded shape to make a good fit. A flat shape will leave gaps at the sides.
To transform a flat material into a “rounded” shape using a woven (non-knit) fabric, seamstresses use basically three methods.
1. Curves in the fabric pieces, so that when two pieces are sewn together a shape is formed (think of a colored beach ball with many sections) or a princess style dress. The curved pieces eliminate a section of the flat fabric.
2. Darts sewn into the pattern. This is sort of like a V where the fabric is folded and a line is stitched in so that the shape of the fabric will be rounded at the point of the V. Then the excess fabric inside the V is removed.
3. Ease. This is what is used to make a “cap” for the shoulder in sleeves (in old-fashioned tailoring). A gathered edge is stitched into a smaller length of fabric and stretched wider away from the stitching so that a fullness/curve is stitched into the fabric. Moldable/felted fabrics (such as wool or felt) can be steamed and pounded into the desired shape (this was done for sleeve caps in suits over a rounded mold and also to shape hats).
BTW - I was talking about ethanol (drinking alcohol such as vodka) way back in this thread, not denatured or isopropyl alcohol which in not ingestible (as stated on the container).
Sea Urchin, the ones I’ve been making use a combination of the darts, for nose and chin fitting, and gathering on the sides, almost like pleates. It works pretty well, but still needs a way to fit tightly around the top of the nose. I’m starting to think a glob of chewing gum might be the answer (yuch) but washing it off will be another problem. If the wearer were also wearing goggles (not so available) they might help to hold the mask down tight. Can you think of a way that isn’t too high-tech?
Lorelle — this may sound simplistic, but would a large flexible bandaid work to hold the top down to the nose?
That makes sense InfoLady. Or just adhesive tape maybe. I’ll see if it doesn’t hurt too much to rip it off. (Human guinea pig here)
Well, it works really well, if you keep it down away from your eyes. Finally it seems like all the air is coming through the fabric instead of around it. Take it off sloooowly though, or it does hurt. So, maybe a roll ot two of adhesive tape with every mask, hopefully the ouchless kind!
http://tinyurl.com/r9526 Since we’re thinking outside the box, how about a filter insert that can be changed, for extra protection. Powdered clay. I can’t understand all the science talk here, but I see other studies also checking out bentonite with different viruses. Viri? I know hydrated bentonite adsorbs all kinds of buggers, so maybe dry does also. Anyone know about this?
Hi Lorelle! I’m experimenting with a bandana as a mask at the moment. It’s hot and stuffy and only two layers. Wondering about adhesives such as eyelash glue; run a bead of glue over the cheekbones and nose, pressing fabric against the skin for a tight fit.
Lorelle- can you make double or triple row stitching, like you would for ruffles or puffy sleeves, to gather up around the nose area? Not sure this would work at all, but, even hand sewing with “thin” elastic (if it could be done) to create the gather effect of ruffle or puff sleeves type design. I doubt the thin elastic would fit into regular sewing machine.
Come to think of it, I think there is some sort of elastic like stuff that is in the craft section. seems like it is used to make some sort of jewlry stuff. FWIW
EnoughAlready – at 17:59 Do you mean putting the gathering on the inside to fill the gaps around the nose? Or on the outside? I’m trying to picture it.
Hello all! Here are some size specifications for masks that I found on a site selling China-made disposable masks:
adult: 17.5 x 9.5cm
child: 14.5 x 9.5cm
baby: 12 x 7cm
Sorry, I have forgotten everything I ever knew about metric conversions.
I “borrowed” the disposable paper mask that my 2-year-old great-neice was told to wear at her last pediatrician’s visit: It measures 5 3/8 in x 3 1/8 in, with pleats across the mask for expansion. The aluminum nose adjustment thingie did allow a fairly tight fit.
bump
Elastic can be either threaded through a casing or you can use a “cross stitch” (X). Most sewing machines have this stitch option, or it can be done by hand. The trick is to sew over and just on either side of the elastic, not catching the elastic in the thread. That allows the elastic to “move” through what is basically a “thread casing”. In either case, you pull the elastic to tighten (to the fit you want) and then sew off the ends securely. This will create a gathered effect.
Re: Lorelle – at 14:00 Powdered clay as filter, I got a response back from a clay expert saying that it would not make a good filter for air. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
A note on adhesives. Don’t plan on using them routinely. People get allergic to them. I have pretty tough hide, but a week of adhesive on my face and the skin peeled off with it. Face skin is more sensitive than other skin.
About the fit around the nose. The T-shirt mask solved the problem by rolling the fabric longways until it was about thumb-thick, then cutting a vertical slit centered over the bridge of the nose, through some but not all layers. The roll filled up the space between the cheekbones and the bridge of the nose. On a knit, the edges don’t ravel. On a woven fabric, something like buttonhole stitch would be needed to finish the edges of the slit. I think adding rolled fabric at critical places around the perimeter would help stop the air leaks.
Another big feature of the t-shirt mask is having three sets of ties, not two. This system, plus the stretch of the fabric, closes even more of the gaps that four-tie maskes have, particularly between the cheekbones and the chin. Most commercial respirators have six straps, not four.
There have been some interesting thoughts here. We’re focused on prevention of healthy persons and here’s where I think this thread is helpful. If the sick people who go out wear any type of mask, due to seeing everyone else wearing one, we will have less airborne virus to deal with. Even if the sick just yank up a t-shirt to cough into, less virus in the air. It’s not perfection, but every less virus floating near us means our little self designed masks may actually work! Finally, I’ve participated in outdoor emergency training and this is usually in summer or fall. It gets hot behind the mask! Everytime someone would lift theirs up to breathe the supervisors would howl. People who are prone to acne break out behing the masks-also not good for reasons of infection. I see kids having a particularly bad time in hot weather areas, the more comfortable the better for them.
I think the t-shirt next to the face, especially an old one that has been washed and has no chemicals in it, is very comfortable.
wetDirt, I think I understand about rolling the fabric to fill the gaps. Fabric is wonderful to work with, almost like clay. That will be my next experiment. It’s better not to have to use wire or something stiff. How do you position the 6 straps? And do they come together in the back, or stay seperate?
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468.htm
This link is to the CDC’s mask design. My take: this wheel has been invented. The design is well thought-out, with careful attention to both the design intent, and the characteristics of the fabric. This mask would not work on woven material, and it might not work if you oriented the fabric differently along the grain. Whoever designed this knew how commercial respirators are designed, and did the same things. And they tested it with a fit machine, and fiddled with it to individualize the fit.
The only improvement I can think of is to dye the filter with gentian violet/ copper sulfate. I just don’t think a four-point suspension will beat this.
Apologies to everyone. I just now saw this for the first time. You can’t beat this for simplicity and availability. OK, I’m done. This is the one I will pass around to the community. A picture is worth a thousand words.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468-G.htm
(Lorelle leaves wheel inventions to someone else.)
ok, I’ve looked at the cdc plans posted above by Lorelle; they seem great. However, can anyone explain to me the “nose slit” that is spoken of (and barely shown)? I can’t tell from the sketchy details and drawing exactly what its purpose is supposed to be, and why you need/want a slit that fits over the bridge of the nose????
Lorelle, it was a pleasure to read your postings. As always your there quietly giving you best to the wiki wherever you can. Some posts are so soothing, like a hive of busy bees searching for the exact type of flower that they have chosen for their hive. I just rerad recently that bees seek out one particular flower, and even pass by better closer flowers. You chose the mask thread, and plugged away. Thanks.
Kim – at 14:36 - I think the nose slit allows the fabric to curve around the nose and lie flat at the top of the nose.
Lily, thanks, you’re so kind. Lugon, I have a summary of purpose for you: How to lead people who are a little slow to the proper link, allowing them to think they found it on their own. :D This mask it truly simple, only a pair of scissors or even a sharp knife, and a t-shirt. The end.
Ok, so let’s work on the respiratory prevention package then. With a “how to build a mask - for dummies at instructables.com and recomendations on general ways to diminish the likelihood of infection, both for yourself and also, because that’s how networks work, for those further down the line from you.
And also, let’s see if we have been able to make some improvements on the simple mask, or if there are some fuzzy areas where there might be some improvement in the future, if only we could solve such and such issue … Could we do that?
Read the article that goes with the mask design. It says they encourage improvement, because of fit problems and what sounds like effectiveness.
Lorelle- using large stitch length, sew 2–3 rows of stitching wherever the nose problem is. Leave long tails on each end of the sewing rows. Pull these threads/tails to make a “gather”… like you would in ruffling. InfoLady described excellent way to incorporate elastic into the design (if needed), especially easy/simple is the X method she described. I tried blowing up that mask design photo to figure out the “nose slit”… I still don’t get that.
Or the “instructable” might be a slide-show like those being collected at Forum.AThankYouToTheWikie2. It would be better than an “instructable” because people would be able to translate it, adapt it to different places and cultures, and generally improve on it.
A birthday present from fluwikie to the rest of the world. Heh!
a number of things with the tshirt mask design is questinable. first you can not slip it off a litle to get a sip of water etc. 2 that blob on the head will keep people away from using it. 3 it is so folded, that if you try to put it on again, you might end up putting the contaminated fabric right into your eyes or mouth… 2 it dont have a colored front and back to easier remember what is out and what is in.
This mask was made as simple as posible, using a raw materal in the army, the t shirt. soldiers are a lot more disiplined than average joe. We need something more similar with a industrial N95 mask. so people will feel “cool” and comfertable” with.. keep ut the brilliant work :)
urdar-Norge, I agree, the mask isnt pretty. Perhaps we could solve that problem by using velcro on the ends of the tie that goes on top of your head. Still not pretty, but better. It looked to me like the 8 pieces of fabric that are the actual filter are sewn together separately, then sewn to the inside of the “mask proper” (the part with all the ties on it). If this is so, we can solve the problem by making the “mask proper” a different color than the plain white filter part. Even with repeated bleaching at least some of the color should stay in the “outside” part. And I still haven’t figured out the nose slit thing.
Kim—see: wetDirt – at 13:18 for the nose slit thing.
EnoughAlready – at 17:16 I think I got the nose slit. You roll down the top to make a tube os several thicknesses, then cut half-way through so it makes a notch to fit the top of the nose. Only problem is, after you wash it and go to put it on again, lining up those notches in the same way is difficult. I do agree about the bow on the top of the head—looks silly. Maybe alright for little girls, but not a 16yr old male. And old t-shirts look dingy, so how about tie-dye in bright or reserved colors? Or just dyed in pleasant shades. I still think it’s more comfortable than the N95 mask. urdar-Norge , did you see the e-mail to urdar@fluwiki.no with the attachment of a design using rubber bands?
bumping for bill
bow on the top of the head: make it longer so it can be tied somewhere else. Velcro. Or make it shorter and leave a string that’s longer but not as bulky.
Some people will get haircuts so the whole thing is not as bulky.
We’ll have photographs of people with their masks on.
Lorelle, i could not open the files. You must save as “jpg, png or gif” format.. please try again…
Patterns: I can make the graphic design when a pattern and a design is ready. But I don not know the propper signs for differnet types of sewing.. for me its just a dashed line.. plase try to make even the sewing as plain as posibble. When you feel you got something that works send it to “urdar at fluwiki.no” and I will put in on web so people here may see it and evaluate. A pencil drawing is fine, just scan it, and save as jpg.
In a few days I may have time to try and send it again. The trouble with rubber bands is they get tangled in hair.
I think velcro is a great idea to investigate — there are some very substantial types of velcro, so holding it tight would not be an issue.
Velcro would really help the elderly or young children — both of whom may have trouble tying all those knots. (Or anyone with problems with their hands or motor skills)
MICROFIBER: It seems clear that microfiber is a industrial verified product. It has verified properties on being antistatic, it contains small particles and is used in sports clothing for its ability to transport moisture and heath from the body. I have bought a small cleaning towel intended to use as a dry dust cleaner, it has no perforations. It is very soft, should be washed in 60–90´C with no soap, softener and not bleached!!. The brand is the norwegian “Jordan”.. But my guess is that most brands have their raw fabrics from some central international producers of such plastic fabrics.. Its made of 70% polyester, 30% Polyamide. it looks like the traditional polishe leather fabric in its texture.
When I put in on my face, its just as easy/hard to breath thru as a N95 mask.. I realy think this could be enough to make a “simple mask” just one layer! Two is actualy to tight.. + 1 layer of Satin in front to prevent the mask from being to effective as a antistatic..
Problem is how in the name of brands are we gonna get a international homogenic mask design… When microfiber is used in such a large number of towels in so many brands with different texture..
velcro is a good idea, but it needs to be elastic in the strings, since talking and moving will make the mask fit losen of tighten. Rubberbands used in sports clothing etc has a veaven fabric skin, that will eliminate the hair problem..
links that refernce the usage of microfibers in masks link
http://www.gersonco.com/pdf/*Healthcare.pdf
Patent on microfibers http://xrint.com/patents/us/3978185
on antistatic microfibers, a patent http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5919847.html
Microfiber seems to be any usefull plastic resin blowmoulded in a certian way to create very fine fibers. In all references MF is claimed to be usefull as partical filters. We would not know until it was examined by pros if a comersial cloth could be used as a effective material. But this implies that MF is probably better than any old materials proposed in this tread.
A vell written email to the companys could maybe start something that would give us a verification on the usage in a improviced and homemade mask.
bumbeti
urdar-Norge – at 12:27
Microfiber is not one thing, it is many things. Probably every mask manufacturer specifies their own proprietary blend. This stuff is not very available, and you would need to know exactly what you were ordering, because the stuff used for sawdust filtration or welding might not work for viruses. They just aren’t the same thing. You would need to specify a weight and a fiber composition (polyester? polyethelyne? polypropylene? Acetate? nylon?) And how would you get a 3M microfiber product from Argentina? 100% cotton T-shirt fabric can be bought in any country on Earth, except possibly Antarctica, and I’m not sure whether McMurdo has a gift shop or not.
urdar,
Please read the instructions on making links at the bottom of the page.
June 22nd wetDirt – at 14:00 WROTE: http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol12no06/05-1468.htm “. . .This link is to the CDC’s mask design. My take: this wheel has been invented. . .”
I agree 200% if there was such a thing. If we are trying to save the masses from being exposed to virus, THIS is the winner. It’s got 3 smart folks from the University of Pittsburgh who got it on the CDC website. . . All you need is a t-shirt. . . No velcro, no rubber bands, no wire.
The problem is it’s not real clear how to cut, wrap and tie this mask. I have contacted the 3 smart people and await their answer. (Smart people are; Virginia M. Dato, David Hostler and Michael E. Hahn)
sorry Mel :/ suprised me to.. I will use pmw next time.
WetDirt: yes you do pinpoint the problem.. thats why I ask how to fix it. I think a narrowing in some way can be done. Something like this: Microfiber Towel intended as dry dust removal, non perforated with a tight weaw, sold in shops like **** in the U.S. under the brand names as ******. typical prise is **
This will surley lower the amonth of fabric awailible globaly, but hear me out on this: 1 MF towel sized 35×35 cm is enough for two masks. Boiled and reused in 6 months means it replaces 180 disposable Surgical Masks.. SM is sold to the medical field, And dust masks to the artist and craft workers etc.. The problem then is: if a pandemic happen, everybody will need these masks, making the worlds prod capacity suffer.. But MF dust cleaners are sold to “everyone” in “every” shop for everyday use. The reuse + the “everyone” marketgroup = closer the entire population.. (and yes, afrika etc is probably another problem…)
The other thing proposed here is that the design and the fit may be used with any suitable fabric available, as long as the intention is to stop spreading viruses. The poorer countries have something we in the “western world” is abot to miss. The ability to do handcraft, small production facillities and a entrepenourship not afraid of buryocratic interference.. The term DIY says it all, I dont think they have this term, everything they do is DIY…
Lets focus on a DIY self guide for the westen population that is so easy that anybody can make it. Lets fokus on a design that will be popular, that will be just as “cool” and comfortable as a industrial N95 so people will actualy wear them… And lets spread this in such a way that it will also be awilable for the poorer countries (translations etc) to see if they can use any parts of it..
SCW AZ: yes its a wheel.. but this tread has been well aware of it all the time. But few says it is the perfect wheel.. What if the smart people looked at this tread and was helpful to werify a “simple mask” as a end result. That would be very nice :)
One benefit of re-inventing a wheel is, when it breaks you can fix it yourself. I wonder about this micro-fiber. What does it do in the lungs over a long period of time? Once upon a time people thought asbestos was safe. Have there been studies on it?
the materials are well known, Polyester, and Polyamide is probably covering your body right now.. The special thing is the incredibal small fibers, and their shape. I cant think this is any issues to be wooried about. It has been prodused sine the 50s, and have entered the house clenaing marked the last years. theese plastic is also useed for water and food containers.. but breathing is something else.. But then again, MF is used in masks already..
Perhaps I am unclear on the concept here, but since commercial N-95 masks are unlikely to provide adequate protection since they are unlikely to be fit and used correctly by untrained people, and they also require appropriate eye protection, why are folks on this thread going to great lengths to design even less effective masks?
It seems that social distancing is the only real answer, and these other options create a false sense of security, just like a poorly fit, but naively worn, N-95.
And to the uneducated me, polimers, microfibers, all this new-fangled stuff I try to avoid gets filed along with chemtrails, genetic engineering, etc. Cotton we have more experience with, although some GE cotton has been making the cotton field workers sick in India. I still think free old t-shirts are the most consumer friendly.
And this would do exactly what?
Thank all of you for mentioning “eye protection” generally. It got me to thinking I’d ordered extra contacts without even realizing the virus could be acquired through your eyes. Rather than handling contact lense I’ll revert to glasses.
Ceredwin at 17:21: As I understand it, we are NOT trying to reinvent the N95 mask. Completely agree that social distancing will be of huge importance, along with proper hand hygiene and disinfection and cough/sneeze etiquette. I think the intent of this thread was to devise a mask that people would willingly wear as a means of protecting OTHERS from their germs. Just as the surgical mask protects the patient, not the surgeon. Some protection for the wearer will be a bonus, though, because the more people who wear such a mask, the less virus is in the air that we must pass through; a mask will also serve to remind people to wash their hands before touching their mouths or faces.
Additionally, we are attempting to settle on a pattern/template and abundantly available fabric (such as tee shirts) so that anyone who wants a mask can have one, regardless of financial means or skill in sewing. :)
The supposed danger of wearing contact lenses is the theory that the virus could ‘lurk’ under them. I think that you would only need to wear eye protection if going into a suspect or known contaminated situation (like a doctors waiting room}. In that case the best ‘off the shelf’ eye protection would be a simple pair of swimming goggles, which one knows are air tight and also chlorine proof for decontamination purposes. They also offer the smallest outline and chance of disturbing the mask seal. However ….. I think only a hood type PAPR respirator offers any real protection against H5N1.
urdar-Norge – at 08:54 Lets fokus on a design that will be popular, that will be just as “cool” and comfortable as a industrial N95 so people will actualy wear them. . .”
SCW AZ: In a kind and gentle spirit of debate. . . Wearing a mask is never cool and comfortable. I’ve had to wear them MUCH to often during the last 25 years. NOBODY ever wants to wear a mask. It sucks.
I see two cases where masks will be necessary. Out in the general public where the use of social distancing will provide a MUCH better primary protection than the mask. The other is when caring for a sick patient where the mask will be the primary means of protection. . .
Earlier you mentioned “that you can not slip it off a litle to get a sip of water etc”. You don’t want to be doing any quick sips of water or smoke breaks. Hand to mouth / face contact is not a good thing in this situation. If you’re wearing a mask than WEAR the mask.
you will probably need 2 or 3 of these masks because I would think that they will be / should be used once, then be cleaned / sanitized. This is true especially if you are caring for a sick person.
The reason I continue to push for the cotten t-shirt fabric is because it has been TESTED and it works. It is also VERY availabe.
Swann – at 17:57
As I understand it, we are NOT trying to reinvent the N95 mask. . . I think the intent of this thread was to devise a mask that people would willingly wear as a means of protecting OTHERS from their germs. . .
Swann, I thought the purpose of the thread is the EXACT opposite. . . That we are trying to devise a mask for the person who is not infected, so that they do not BECOME infected. . .
Can I buy a vowel, because it appears I have NO clue. . .
Swann – at 17:57
As I understand it, we are NOT trying to reinvent the N95 mask. . . I think the intent of this thread was to devise a mask that people would willingly wear as a means of protecting OTHERS from their germs. . .
Swann, I thought the purpose of the thread is the EXACT opposite. . . That we are trying to devise a mask for the person who is not infected, so that they do not BECOME infected. . . This would be for people who don’t have access to N-95′s. Industrial countries, along with second and 3rd world. . .
Can I buy a vowel, because it appears I have NO clue. . .
If a pandemic were to start in a matter of days, we’d now be focusing on how to make the design available for millions. If it takes longer, then it makes sense also to try and have alternatives: some may be better and if they are not then we know this was the best one (we could find).
Plus a whole set of information so people will use them properly and use all the other “tricks” as well.
And I don’t know if the mask will only have one purpose. If it’s worn by all then we’re all better off, no? :-?
SCW AZ: Hmmm, you may be right! Where’s Urdar when we need her??
I know that an N-95 is NOT good for a sick person as it makes it more difficult to breath.
In the ol’ US of A, a worker is SUPPOSED to receive a physical and medical clearannce to wear one because of the additional stress on the heart and lungs it creates. They have N-95 with exhalation valves, but you don’t want that for a sick patient either, since it is a straight blow thru of exhaled air. . .
I tend to agree with Lugon on this one. Those of us who live in the city will never be able to keep a good distance from each other for very long. If anything at all can help cut down on the amount of virus-sharing, then that’s a good thing. When caring for a sick person, I would definitely use something. If you can afford a space suit, good. Some of us will have to make do. Encourage it.
http://tinyurl.com/nsny6 I hope Urdar isn’t out buying shares of the microfiber masks, because this article would keep some from buying it. Workers in a microfiber plant have a new type of lung disease and “None have fully recovered normal lung function.”
sorry for being in a another time zone.. it now 4.25 in the night and I am a slightly intoxicated by red flu killer. please bear with me the typos..
First I woud like this tread divided in two.. One for a simple “popular” mask that is awailible for anyone in the western world. Its intention is to stop spread out (we need a better term for this..) And to be a effective protective mask as posible with common materials and informed knowlegde delivered in the same medium as the DIY guide.
Its sucses is dependent on a numerous sosial factors like this story: “I dont have a disposable N95 or a simple surgical mask, I need something that looks “just as good” to not be a “outcast”, in a soceity where everybody is wearing a mask. My hope is that this mask I am wearing is also quite good protecting me ( some lab said is was 60% good), not only as a comunity mask, but technicaly as a ok filter…
I live in a world of supermarkets, and Microfiber towels (or any other good filter material that is sold where I live) I used to make my masks. When I learned about this homemade mask on the internet, I also learned about proper use. Putting my finger in my eye is not wise.. But my coleague, who is a tough guy, tells me to shut up when I tell him that drinking from a bottle in a public area whitouth disinfecting his hand is stupid. But he wears the mask I gave him. Hoopefully I am not in this moment infected, many people is.. I feel ok, but who knows? I am proud that if someone I care for or anyone else is infected, its not by me, when I cough, or sneece its all stopped by my homemade and “comfertable” mask… Whish me all luck.. Ps. I read in the news that those cleaver people in L-America is producing the same design as I am wearing, they use cotton, but since everybody hopes it works, they all now have masks on in the streets, sucesfully slowing the spread. I hope they use hot water and soap as well.
Secound Tread: a new, larger production capacity, and reusable mask, with N95 filter effect.. That proffesionals, and many more can wear to protect them SELF, who is verified, and is actulay functioning because its trained and very disiplined people using it.. (see? This is actualy “not in our league to fix unless we have a number of pros, and foundings in our cooperative work. Lets try it!…)
I am not a girl :) and I dont buy any stocks, If I had the money to do so, I would have bought something in renewable energy… I am student in design. And for me this is all abouth mixing all aspects into a sucessfully as posibly mix :D
Sorry urdar! I was sure you had mentioned a DH when you were discussing SIP in your family cabin. LOL!
Cool, urdar. I tried again to send the pattern this time using JPEG. Sorry, I never wanted to even use computers, but, well, had to learn. Even if this discussion never comes to a conclusion, lots of raw material to work with has been thrown on the table.
bump..
The following is from bird-dogs post at 10:45 today on the News Thread…a remarkable piece of writing!!
“The fact that the medical attendants who worked there were so largely spared makes this hypothesis most unlikely; none of my classmates died, and very few became ill. Perhaps the masks, gowns, and handwashing did more to protect us than we had a right to expect. Certainly, with death all around us, we had every encouragement to be as careful as we could, but we were so busy and so tired that we forgot about precautions, and patient after patient coughed into our faces as we tended to their needs.”
Influenza in 1918: Recollections of the Epidemic in Philadelphia: Isaac Xtarr MD.
Bottom line…the cotton masks used in 1918 worked.
Sorry, the least I could do is get the Doctor’s name correct…Isaac Starr MD.
Norwegian government claimes that mask for the public is not gonna help. They are so way off into stupidness.. In 1918 people did not even know what a virus was. Many soldiers and nurses used mask, I really dont think they all washed hands in hot water with soap or used alcohol for a high numbers of times during the day… Even so. The death numbers was lower than many other parts of the world, so something did help. And claiming that since so many people died, the use of mask was useless is a strange kind of simple logic..
Masks and other techincs will reduse spread and infections. A 100% safe world is not possible. But by giving people the message and the means to make their own masks, from lousy to god filter efficency, will if everybody uses them dramatcly reduse the spread. This is also a simple logic, but this time the cost in $ is not in consideration :-)
bump bump
Lorelle. I will use some time to get your drawing on the net. our netguru is partying like there was no tomorrow in a festival somehvere :D
Good for them. Maybe we should all be partying; there may be no tomorrow!
of course there will be a tomorow, usualy with a hangover, but nothing we have not handeled before one way ot the other :D
Now where was we? The microfibers… did that single report scare people away or do we use common sense and wash the towels before first time use and put it inbetween two layers of satin?
And what about writing down the intention text in a good and propper english for the DIY guide. Anyone?
Where’s Lugon?
bump
hi Lorelle, I was in an undisclosed destination for 4 days. Taking naps before lunch time and not just after. Much needed. Then I come back to this place and I see lots of action, yippie! So next time I’ll take a longer rest ;)
Anyways, great to see all this stuff about masks. I’m convinced they will provide lots of value. I received a link to a pdf presentation done in Paris a few days ago. The last slide shows something interesting: “efforts to avoid infection”. I like the wording: much of the feared disruption will happen because of such “efforts”. No antivirals will ever achieve the specific aim covered by masks and other “efforts to avoid infection”. We do need our respiratory protection package (yes, “protection” sounds better than “prevention”)!
Leaving my brain in a fish tank for a few days made an old idea float to the surface. Could we try this mask in other settings? Maybe in a military setting, or in an intern school or with health-care workers? Maybe with bird cullers (I know they don’t fall ill)? Unvaccinated folks, tested for antibodies beforehand, and “challenged” with some common flu (maybe, this is stupid, common flu “marked” someway?), and in two groups (one with masks and the other without)? At worst it would be inconclusive, needing a larger trial or different methodology. We would learn if wearing such a mask works for long hours, if knots get loose after a while or whatever else we need to learn.
We would have two ways of starting said research:
OMG, I truly can’t count properly when it comes to options. There’s always more than expected. All it takes is some “helicopter thinking” (as when you fly over the area, staying above some specific spot, looking for more ways out, obvious or not).
Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.