This thread, otherwise known as the “Perfessor Eccles thread”, is continued from Part 4.
This was Part 3
This was Part 2
This was Part 1
bumpity bump
sssssss…swoooooosshhhhh……….kabang!
(It’s the Fourth, ya know)
Hi, Eccles-happy Fourth! The May/June AARP magazine had a suggested Father’s Day gift that looks neat. Solar panels that spread out like a windmill to charge a cell phone or iPod. Solio brand for $99. No specs were given. (A Google search found the item for $63 to $86.)
A review says that an hour of charging gives you 10 minutes to talk:
http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-11288_7-6427792-3.html
Maybe the charger that uses 2 AA batteries is more efficient, but the idea of small solar stuff is so appealing. And simple.
Jane - it’s sure a cure toy, but it is really designed for the traveller who needs a quick boost when awat from it all. There are much cheaper and higher powered alternatives.
It is, however, an unfortunate fact of life that you only recover so much power per square inch of panel, so the smaller they are, the less you get, and the more you get, the bigger the panels are.
I have a folding 5 watt unit that will travel pretty well in a briefcase, but sure isn’t pocket sized.
That’s CUTE toy
I guess my brain corrects for most typos, so when people correct themselves, most of the time I didn’t even see the error the first time. Don’t know if that’s a good or bad thing. Maybe less coffee would make me less skittery?
I was wondering about surge protectors-do they have fuses? So if the power is intermittent, surge protectors would get ruined, and we’d need backups? Would it be a good thing to put surge protectors on all appliances we’d want to use, fridge, stove, clocks? Or unplug them every time the power fails? (Besides tv, vcr, and computers, which I know are delicate)
Jane-
First, there is a distinction between GOOD surge protectors and the trash that they sell at Big Box outlets for cheap prices that claim to be surge protectors. Since I really can’t guarantee what level of care has been put into the design of a cheap protector, my comments apply to well designed surge protectors from reputable manufacturers.
Surge protectors have circuit breakers built into them which are designed to protect against overloading the circuit protector or the outlet they are plugged into by hooking too much power demand into the protector. The breaker should not blow in the event of a power interruption unless the combined power demand due to startup surge by the connected devices exceeds the rating of the surge protector.
In intermittant power, a surge protector will probably encounter many voltage spikes which it will absorb as part of its protection function. If the rating of the surge protector (in Joules) is too low, it is possible to exceed the lifetime capacity of the protector and cause it to fail. That is why it is important to get a surge protector with sufficiently high ratings to insure that you are adequately protected.
As for whether to use protectors on all appliances, I think that is not necessary. it IS necessary to use one for any appliance which contains an intelligent controller (If it has LED status indicators, a clock or a numeric readout, that’s a sure giveaway). Stoves connect through heavy duty outlets which are not amenable to outlet bar type surge protectors.
There is a big difference in the surge protectors that are out there, and there are many things to look at when you buy one. Since I tend to go over the top on things like this, if asked, I’ll post more info about shopping for a good surge protector. Otherwise, I’ll just let it be as it is here.
Eccles advised me to get some good surge protectors and I am glad I did.
And if you don’t have a good one on your computer (and I don’t mean one of those power strip things) you are risking your number one source of information. I fried a couple of computers with the cheapy ones.
Here is the model I bought. It protects against surges on your phone line and cable also and comes with all the cords neccessary. I put one on the computer and the two newest TVs.
Severe thunderstorms in our area tonight. Maybe those surge suppressors will get a work out….
HBB- The surge protectors are the repository of “Luck”. On a number occasions when bad storms came through and several people had electronics fried, I said I was very lucky and came through it just fine. The longer this went on, the luckier they thought I was. When I tried to suggest a good spike protector, they always said “I already HAVE one”. Telling them their protector was nothing more than an outlet strip with pretensions led to the same kind of eye rolling that usually accompanies any conversation I have where I try to wise people up.
In any social circle, there is always me, and there are the Frumpingtons. I never make the cut for initiation into the International Order of Frumpingtons. One of THEIR qualifiactions seems to be smug eye rolling. My qualification is that all of my stuff works.
Eccles,Jon, HillbillyBob and all you other elec/solar gurus Thank you! My SO sat down today and I had him start reading part 1,2,3… and he enjoyed, had a few aha moments and chuckled quite a few times. Think I got/you got him hooked.
He took me serious and we’d talk about BF but he wasn’t doin a lot on his own. I think maybe just maybe after listen to you handy dandys, he will start now!
KimT – at 00:52
Well this electronic/technical stuff is probably more interesting for him than discussions about storing rice and beans. Whatever it takes to get him started.
I was at my in-laws for the 4th and we talked some about general preparedness. My FIL bought a really neat water storage tank and has it in his garage. It is 2′ D, 4′ W and 6′ H, and holds 485 gallons. Because of the dimensions, you can get it into practically anywhere and it takes up very little floorspace. He is storing rainwater in it as they already have a good source of drinking water. He needed to know how much Clorox to add to keep it safe and I was glad to provide that info.
KimT - Just remind your husband of Red Green’s usual advice:
If the ladies don’t find you handsome, they can at least find you handy.
He is my very long term DBF, he lives a few blocks away. I expect him to show up here if he needs to sip, cuz he sure isn’t planning on his own, but he isnt participating actively yet. I keep trying to get him to start storing supplies so he can bring them along. He eats alot more then my daughter and I do, but he currently lives on fast food. And Did you know that Iowa is the number1 supporter od Red Green every year on PBS. Lots duck tape here!
Eccles my husband is an electrician and we have a whole house surge suppressor. It takes the place of 2 20AMP breakers and goes right in the panel. The question I have is that I read somewhere on this thread that someone bought a converter for their generator. It converted it from gas to propane. I have the link and have been trying to get ahold of the company to order but so far no luck. I was wondering if the person who ordered it ever received it and does it work? Thank you
AMIREADY-
One thought on whole house surge suppression. And I will probably get some folks riled up at me for saying this, but while it provides a necessary service, it is not sufficient to protect your delicate devices from all spikes. That is because some of the spikes that damage your electronics are generated within the house either by other equipment that you own, or by induced voltages from nearby lightning strikes.
The whole house unit will keep bad spikes from entering the house over you service connection, and may also serve to attenuate or suppress spikes created on one phase of your house service from crossing into the other phase and doing damage. But there may well be cases where a spike that is generated within the same phase circuit as the one your delicate device is plugged into has already killed the sensitive guy before it ever reaches the whole house unit.
In my own view, which is admittedly over the top for some, I have spike protectors on every device that I do not wish to replace after a thunderstorm has passed.
As for the propane conversion, I will have to let someone who has done one to handle your question.
Eccles-
Don’t think it over the top at all. We have seen both personally and ‘on the job’ what surges can do. This is an especially important topic because if there are grid interuptions seems to me there will be more possiblity of surges.
One important point about surge protectors…a lightning strike doesn’t have to be on top of or near your house. It can strike up to 3 miles away and fry your sensitive electronics by spiking the entire local grid. I fried two system boards while I lived in CT…’cuz I’m a computer tech and I know what I’m doing…! Just my two cents
Eccles,
Whatever happened to Susie Perkins? I wonder if she knows you are BMOW(big man on wiki)? :~)
Somewhat related to surge suppressors and the equipment you plug into them…
Whenever you want to reset an electronic device by turning it off and then back on, always wait for a full 10 seconds before turning the device back on. This allows the device’s power supply to bleed off any power stored in the power supply.
If you don’t do this, you run the risk of frying the device. (I’ve lost a PC motherboard, video card, disk drive, and CD-ROM, once when I was impatient and quickly flipped off and on the power to my PC.)
10 seconds is somewhat arbitrary I admit, but I think adequate for most devices.
An example of this: A lot recent PC motherboards with built-in network adapters have a LED (probably green) on the motherboard that stays lit even after you “shutdown” (software shutdown from the menu) your computer. (This means that the netwok adapter is still active and (if configured correctly) can be used to remotely power-on the PC.) When you turn the power switch off, you can see that the green LED stays lit for a couple of seconds while the power supply bleeds off.
Most surge protectors rely on MOV (metal oxide varistor) technology. However, they lose their surge capacity with time. Their capacity gets used up with the many small spikes that occur all the time.
So you may want to replace your surge protectors regularly.
More so than with other things, with surge protectors you have to pay to get a quality product - with the quality engineering and parts to offer the best protection. It’s not just a matter of how much energy can be absorbed - other important factors are the maximum voltage that is allowed to pass through, and how fast the protection kicks in.
The transil or tranzorb semiconductor protection devices are more expensive than the cheap MOV’s, so you won’t see them for the main power protection unless you pay the bucks for a quality unit (but you will see them used on the phone, satellite and data lines).
bumpity
charge controller at the pv panels outside or with the electro gear inside? that is the question.
Small setup, just now refining the list, have bought NOTHING.
$240 or less - AGM 80 amphr 12v sealed batteries (two to start, room for more). $150 or so - Truecharge 10TB 120voltac battery charger (10amp). onhand - battery box Coleman cooler without the top. $40 - Xantrex not true sinewave inverter 175 watt. Or the $210 Exeltech 150watt true sinewave inverter. $75 - Battery cables Boltnut pairs, ringed wire ends, fuse w/holder. $100 - pole, concrete, panel mount. $350 or so, pv panels 50 watt or so, 12v. Start with one and add as desired to four. I live near AffordableSolar in Albq New Mexico.
The setup will act as an oversized UPS (uninteruptable power supply) for a very small load that is 120ac only (dsl modem and wireless phone base). In a longer term grid shutdown, say a three day storm, it would also be a 12v dc power source for light use of cellphone and laptop while the wireless phonebase stays unplugged and the dsl modem stays unplugged except when being used.
In a longer term grid shutdown the pv panel(s) would be the limiting factor in terms of power generated and the battery bank size is of course the storage limiting factor while the use limitation is the rules in force on discharge rate/levels.
I lived offgrid thirtythree years ago, big 1800/2500 watt Jacobs wind gennies which we bought sold rebuild took down put up. 240 pound single cell used telepots batteries, solid state inverters but electro-mechanical charge controllers. and did the same with the now “old” 10kw “modern” Jacobs windgens, both grid connect and offgrid. All that is now way way out of date, except for the load management philosophy.
So, charge controller on the panel? Or inside with the inverter and battcharger?
I have enjoyed reading all five of these columns, great info, thanks to all you have put in their experience.
Pi Tainer
Inside with the inverter; depending on the fuzing arrangement, you can use the same wires to the battery as are used by the inverter, which are heavy gauge and as short as possible. When you say battcharger, does that mean a 120vAC charger would be used when the grid intermittently comes back online?
Will,
It’s a Friday night at 10 to 10 and you are on the Wiki? Dude, I thought I had no life…
Melanie- Did you ever consider that to some of us plugging our nervous systems directly into the LAN and communing with our hardware is actually considered enjoyable?
Melanie,
Kids are just down, as we are slowly getting them on West Coast time for their vacation. Just returned from a judicial investiture ceremony, the social afterwards, a walk through the town on Gallery Walk, a walk through our orchard, a gander at the expanded gardens, and a stroll around the pastures with the sheepdog. Now plugging away here right next to my wife who is viewing email on her Mac. And Eccles, I’m more of a firmware type…
Will, I want, as a gear guy, to have the charge controller inside, so I can walk by and see the LEDs light up just fine, but as an engineering guy, that leaves the feed from the outside pv-panels naked from their output to the inside connection, thus the question. (conduit, big feed wires good for future pvpanel add-ons, solid connections, all done right.) Melanie, this is what we do. Eccles, … venus and mars…. and to all, this is the beginning of a well thought out system, fuzes will be, or fuses will be, appropriately placed. If no crap hits the fan, I want a system that just sits there and is an oversized UPS. If the crap hit the fan, well then, I have a bit of stored DC that I can harvest, judiciosly (sp). and Will, as a UPS, the panel(s) might not even by visable, or even be installed unless needed. The batt charger is documented as designed for sealed AGM batts, and both will sit there, running the trivial load by batt only when the grid drops, and if the grid comes on intermittantly, I get the advantage of 10 amps to the batts. So think UPS, with the option to go pv when/if the grid goes down.
Pi
Eccles, since nobody else has piped up, I’d love to hear more on how to pick a good surge protector….thanks
Here on the west coast it’s my favorite time of day. The sun is just starting to set, It’s that beautiful soft light, birds are all a buzz… I’m just heading out for my evening walk through the garden, orchard, and pasture. Check back after the sun is down….
Protective Mother- request is logged. I am a little low on Eccles power tonight, and so I’ll get to it some time this weekend when I am at a higher level of charge and can run at full RPM.
At the risk of sounding obsessively repetitive, I once again urge those who are planning some type of alternative power system to purchase the components as soon as economically possible and try it out BEFORE you really need it. I would never have thought that it would take so long to get my batteries and inverter set up corrrectly. I’ve made 3 trips to Advance Auto, (advice to those who care - determine battery placement before buying cables), and a trip to Lowes for 50 feet of ground wire. I still have some rearrangement of house wiring to make switching over to the inverter power more convenient, (DW objects to extension cords throughout house), and I need to permanently mount the fan that I am using to exhaust gases from battery charging from my workroom. My point is, this all takes time, wiring, fuses, etc and you may not have all of those later on.
I showed my DH the surge protector suggested by Hillbilly Bill above on 7/4, the Tripp lite protect it!, and he recognized it as the one recommended by the computer guy at his workplace.
jane – at 11:59
Not only that, but it has the Eccles seal of approval.
Jane- There are specific reasons for that one over many others. I promise when I have the time to do things right, I’ll explain what you need to know when you buy a surge protector. Then you will have one more thing that everyone else rolls their eyes about when you try to tell them what’s what.
bump
anna nudder bump
bump.
One place you might want to have a really good surge protector is your fridge. We had a horrible problem with brown-outs and frequent complete outages a few years back and it fried our fridge. Evidently they can’t handle that very well. It was a quick and too expensive fix but did require an appliance repairman. Luckily it was the dead of winter too so everything went outside while we waited for the repair. I would not want to loose my fridge if tshtf, especially in the summer! We don’t get as many outages now but we put a protector on the fridge and haven’t had an issue since.
LauraB- I hate to differ with you, and you can read about it in the stuff I’m writing but haven’t yet posted, but unless your fridge had an electronic controller that was damaged then a surge protector would have made no difference at all to what happened to you. The motor damage you experienced was most probably due to the brownout situation, which would not have been helped in any way by a surge protector.
The typical surge protector will certainly NOT protect your equipment from a brownout condition. However, there are protectors on the market that CAN protect against brownout conditions. Let’s review the problems our equipment can face;
There are protectors that claim to protect against brownouts, though I have not tested any. You can find examples here, here and here.
Re: refrigerator
We just bought a new one from Sears. Their “protection plan” [optional extra cost] now specifically includes damage due to power line troubles. I don’t know if home-made electricity is covered, though.
There are “line conditioners” which will keep the voltage constant to their load and prevent these troubles, but they cost serious bucks.
I am going fishing tomorrow, so yesterday I decided to take HillBills advice and get’r done. I called Affordable Solar in Albq, NM, and said I wanted to order a willcall for two panels (GE50s) and a nice PWM charge controller, whatever they had on hand, Prostar 15M is my number one choice without going MPPT. But, the nice lady said they need more that a couple hours notice, even though I was going to pick the stuff up myself, and since I am leaving for fishing tomorrow, it would be better to wait till I get back for them to put together my order. They do not have a store front, just a warehouse, a website and a phone bank, and most all their bigger panels are getting hard to get, though the smaller ones, she said, like the GE50s, are in stock and in good numbers.
So ….
instead of a 100 watt system, I went out and bought a 100ma system. Yes I did. Last night near sundown it was throwing off 15ma. Just now, in mornings first rays, 22ma. And it cost $22.
I will have internet access on and off while fishing and if anyone has comments about GE50s ($300 each), and the ProstarM15, I would like to hear them. Sports Warehouse has Trojan batteries but all their deep cycles are NOT AGM. The Walmart deep cycles (marine RV) are dual duty AGMs and I have yet to see a good handout which lists their discharge over time graph. The local batteiesRus store has Werkers, AGM 80Ah for $120, the Walmart deepcycles are half that. thanks to all, nice pieces by Will and the Doc on brownout and surge protectors, off to fish with the loons, Pi Tainer
lauraB – at 06:21 - Did anybody say what part of the power outages fried your fridge? I’m wondering if unplugging it after the power goes off and only plugging it in again when the power appears to have stabilized would help.
Also, how would we know if the power is really on, or if it’s a brownout (which I’m guessing is periods of lower-than-usual power)?
Mari - it is not a bad idea to unplug things when the power goes down. there are oftens moments of strangeness when they re-apply power to a zone after an outage. I once had a VCR fried when the power (on automatic restoration equipment on their end) went up and down like a yoyo for about 6 cycles over 3 seconds. That is exactly the recipe to destroy electronics, and it did it for me.
When we lose power, we always turn the whole house air/heatpump off. We wait till restoration and stable for 5 minutes before we turn it back on.
(Also, I’m still getting to the main surge protector tutorial, but I’ve been very busy the past few days)
Jane- Sometimes it is hard to tell when you are browned-out, sometimes, you can just see lights runing very dull and you can hear fans and refrigerators running slower and more labored, or just sounding strange.
They are doing fewer brownouts these days because equipment has gotten more sophisticated and can increase its current drain to compensate for the reduced line voltage. This often just makes things worse for the power company.
The way to tell for sure if you are receiving the proper voltage is to use a digital voltmeter to measure the line voltage. They sell monitors that just sit there and read out the present voltage. Or you can use a digital multimeter. But PLEASE don’t use one unless you are familiar with how to measure potentially lethal voltages safely.
How expensive is a voltage monitor? Would it just get plugged into any socket? I don’t want to get adventurous. I’ve seen lightbulbs get dim briefly, but after it happens, it’s too late to do anything, right? Do the meters have audible alarms?
Jane - Such monitors are readily available and can be found very cheaply. They can be plugged into any outlet in the house (although sometimes you will see diffewrent voltages depending on which of the two phases in the 240 feeder the outlet connects to).
Here are a couple of links that I found using Google. I do not know whether these folks are trustworthy or not, just examples of how easily and cheaply you can find such a monitor. And yes, there are monitors that can sound alarms, and even keep logs for you. SInce power quality is a big issue for some industrial users, there are monitors that range in price from about $10 up to several thousand.
So remember these are just examples, not recommendations. If you would like, as usual, those of us Tech-Heads who frequent this thread can go into the subject as deeply as you can tolerate. We’ll start from here and stop for now.
Like I said, luckily we don’t have as many brownouts as we used to. They were very, very unpredictable - not necessarily when a storm was in the area so I knew trouble was coming Could have been a nice sunny day, then lights would start to flicker, etc. We live in a rural area that has experienced a great deal of growth in the last few years. The system is likely not sufficient for the new homes and we have problems with critters in transformers, etc. But what about a battery-back-up type protector like the kind we have for the computer (keeps a constant flow of power to the pc if the power goes and gives you several minutes to close it down). Would that help the fridge? I look into WIll’s protectors as well. Thx.
LauraB- The best thing, which I believe is in one of Will’s listing, is a line voltage stabilizer. It is not a UPS type of backup, but rather it conditions the incoming line voltage so that the connected appliance sees the proper voltage as long as the incoming voltage stays within some range of usually unacceptable voltages. I have seen these units for as low as about $30 for a No-Name chinese unit of uncertain performance up to several hundred dollars (and more) for industrial grade units from highly reputable companies.
Note that some “protectors” just shut down power to the appliance if things get funky. What you would be best served by, if a suitable one for the right price is out there, is a line voltage stabilizer.
Thank you Eccles. I will look into that. I do not want to loose precious food!
Eccles:
This just came up in the clearance section at wallyworld, and I thought that it might be a great solution for heat in the winter, but it almost sounds to good to be true. I googled and couldn’t find any different info. Do you have any knowledge or even if it sounds like it might work? I may buy it anyway, I could always bring it back. Thanks for the great education!
Preppiechick - it does look good but I sure would like to know if it runs on propane or NG? There is also nothing on exectly it works.
Like you, I await the pros and cons from the indepth knowledge base and insight of our own all knowing Dr. Eccles.
http://www.universal-heaters.com/productType.cgi?type=6&target=10145.6.&sub=10145
Propane or natural gas
http://www.vanguardheat.com/upload/FA6595SolarFusionBack0605.pdf
Manufactures website for even more information
Is this product vented or ventless? Be very careful with ventless heaters. Some are indoor rated have efficienty at 99% and are very good. The unit in the link says nothing about putting it in a living space. Always a good idea to have CO detectors even with the quality indoor rated units. Kelly
My comment was aimed at the Walmart unit. Kelly
Preppiechick- My read is that this is a 10–20,000 BTU propane garage heater. That is nothing particularly novel or hard to find. For the price, my own personal preference would be to get the larger Mr. heater portable which runs on either two 1 lb. propane cylinders or can be hooked to a larger tank, and is rated for indoor use, and has an oxygen deplation sensor/shutoff.
I am not familiar with this particular unit, but I would rather that you determine what your needs are, then buy something appropriate to fill the needs, than spend money on a device and determine later that the money could have been better spent on a different unit for a similar (±) price.
Regarding voltage spikes I have wired the main panel with multiple MOVs at the drop and another MOV set at each circuit in addition to the HIGH quality supressors I use to protect my receivers and computers. MOVs are cheap if you buy in bulk at ham fests and computer shows.
Just to show how over the top I really am, one of the basement rooms in my new house is going to be 100 db+ tempest rated with full isolation on all the incoming and outgoing lines…..
LMW- Unless you are doing serous EEG research or very sensitive communications for people who are very particular about how you handle their stuff, why are you going to the trouble of building a Tempest rated room?
Also, you want to be a bit careful about the MOV’s. If they fail shorted due to overload, things could get exciting for a second or two (hearing protection recommended).
AMIREADY here is a link that talks about how to convert a gas gen to propane http://www.otherpower.com/otherpower_propane_convert.html read the other parts of the site, it has a lot of good info.
eccles, et al:
Thanks all! I guess that I just got excited with the “solar” tag - and couldn’t find any other descriptions. Thanks again.
bump
Heres a little info on grounding and surge arrestors:
Opinions from smart people are requested (I guess that means everyone here but me!) I’ve been looking at going solar, but I’m not sure what we’d need. I think we use a max of 1500 kilowatts per month, but I’m not opposed to getting something larger and selling the surplus to the power company, as long as it has a limiter of some sort if the grid is down, and batteries for us. Wind is very good where we are as well, and we have lots of open space. Our house is located in MN, so winter sun isn’t the greatest. We would not even consider doing the install ourselves. I need to know a very rough estimate of how many pennies I need to save, and are there limits to what size we should get. This is all still in the very early/just kind of looking around stage. We will be talking to several different salesmen/companies, but I’d kind of like a starting point from someone who isn’t trying to sell us something.
This is a link to the type of thing I’m talking about. http://tinyurl.com/oh9of I personally like the atlas system, but I’m scared that there is such a thing as too big, and I think it doesn’t come with batteries. Plus, I’d have to save a lot of pennies to get it. BTW, I’m a complete idiot when it comes to electricity so please act like you are talking to a third-grader. Thanks!
The Rice and Dry Beans of Alternative Power:
While driving on vacation I had lots of time to think about alternative energy options. In the other areas of my preparations I have tried my best to only buy those items that can eventually be used. Our food preps are for the most part what we normally eat, although it will take 10 years or so to consume the rice and beans if there is no pandemic. I didn’t buy freeze-dried survival foods, or 100lb buckets of whole wheat. As far as medicines go, I stayed the same course. I have a scrip of a general purpose antibiotic and the OTC meds I think will be beneficial. What I’m saying is that I tried not to buy anything ESPECIALLY for avain influenza, but more for general preparedness.
The question now is, how do I continue that rationale in the area of alternate power? In my area it is prudent to have a generator because of bad winter storms and severe spring and summer thunderstorms. We have one for the farm and I will shortly be purcahsing a new model. I also made an investment in an inverter and a battery bank to power those items that are too sensitive, or have a cycle that runs longer than I want to run the genny at any one time (TV, computer, bread maker). OK, so I have a plan and I have made the necessary steps to put it into place. The problem is where to draw the line. I’ve got a case of what Eccles calls the “shouldas”. If the pandemic hits I’ll be here thinking that for $600-$700 I could have some solar panels on the roof putting power back into the battery bank. For another $300–400 I could have another batery bank, or double the current size of the one I have. However, other than intermittent power outages that don’t really justify these expenditures, I will never use this equipment. I keep seeing two distinct future scenarios, one in which I am VERY thankful I made the purchases I did (and wish I had made more), and another in which I look at all of these expensive purchases and regret going so overboard.
Anybody else dealing with this?
Bill, if I look at it as just whether the flu pandemic will happen or not, I find myself in much the same situation as you.
BUT, when I look at the world situation in general, and all the other stuff that could happen - - - then I want to keep adding to what I have whether the flu happens or not.
Or you could start a new hobby - HBB’s electrical experiments. You might even want to change your name to Hillbilly Bill the Cat. LOL
AVanarts – at 10:11:
Believe me I like playing with electronic gadjets. It’s just a da** expensive hobby.
HBB, I’m with AVanarts. I’ve gone “overboard” on solar by most points of view, but here is my rational: In 5–10 years oil will likely be VERY expensive and there could be lots of options of true hybrid cars. That is, cars that are electric/gasoline, elect/diesel, propane/whatever. With a true elect/? hybrid I’d have the option of plugging the car into the roof, as it were, and doing my usual around town driving on the batteries and saving the expensive, and hard to get, liquid fuel for longer drives or periods of extremely cloudy weather. So the long term, non-bf scenerio would yield some nice options for me with a solar array on the roof. The thing that is impelling me to go solar at this time is, of course, bf. Until such time as I need it, I’ll sell power to the power company and keep by the battery array topped off. Is this economically feasable? Oh, probabally not. But in either an oil depletion scenerio (a near certainty) or bf (an increasing likelyhood), it would be worth every “wasted” cent. Now, if they would just hurry up and deliver the panels…
HBB, I’m with AVanarts. I’ve gone “overboard” on solar by most points of view, but here is my rational: In 5–10 years oil will likely be VERY expensive and there could be lots of options of true hybrid cars. That is, cars that are electric/gasoline, elect/diesel, propane/whatever. With a true elect/? hybrid I’d have the option of plugging the car into the roof, as it were, and doing my usual around town driving on the batteries and saving the expensive, and hard to get, liquid fuel for longer drives or periods of extremely cloudy weather. So the long term, non-bf scenerio would yield some nice options for me with a solar array on the roof. The thing that is impelling me to go solar at this time is, of course, bf. Until such time as I need it, I’ll sell power to the power company and keep by the battery array topped off. Is this economically feasable? Oh, probabally not. But in either an oil depletion scenerio (a near certainty) or bf (an increasing likelyhood), it would be worth every “wasted” cent. Now, if they would just hurry up and deliver the panels…
HBB, yes I can empathize with the overboard concerns. I figure I’m 99% prepped and have been for years doing it with multi-use, multipurpose in mind. Tweeked, bolstered and upgraded the backpack and camping gear, created a large pantry for food that we will use anyway. Filled in the gaps in the home pharmacy. Stocked away 10 years worth of “hunting” equipment. Its great how I can rationalize some great toys. LOL After careful consideration of the things that that one can’t live (literaly) without I figured breathing and electricity were right up there at the top of the list. Especially with the “other” good reasons to be prepared that have been highlighted in the past couple weeks I finally went ahead and got a couple good full face respirators and a case of CBRN filters. Increased the gasoline storage capabilities by 30 gallons this week.
I had decided the begining of the year that solar was the only reliable source of continued energy. I have very little confidence in reliable gasoline supply if TSHTFI not to mention I just don’t want to be involved with all the hoards in line at the pumps. So I put together a 125 watt portable set up using the GSE P3 55 watt military panels (fold up the size of a notebook, 4lbs each). Installed the batteries, inverter and charge controller and gauges in a large toolbox (from Home Depot) that has wheels and a handle like a rolling suitcase. Ought to meet our ongoing disaster needs and (grin) we can use it for long camping/hunting trips.
BF has really never been the “focus” of our preps. Just the latest great reason to review & revise plans, and get the few specific items needed for a pandemic.
Still working on a good justification for a new truck though…LOL
Like everyone else, I have had to balance on that line between prudent preparation and “what the hell am I doing?”. This week I got in a pile of panels (7×15 watt) and a charge controller for them. I am currently running on a small battery bank mostly 12AH individuals plus a 17 AH, which have been maintained for short-term outages. I’ll be adding a couple of hundred AH to the mix when I save up a few more pennies.
But to go beyond this point (such as that wind turbine I’ve been eyeing) really requires that I adopt as a matter of faith that we will se severe changes in the short term, up to TEOTWAWKI.
As Bill says, I would either ask my self what the heck was I thinking when I bought all of that, or else be very glad I have it. As it is, right now, I have enough to get through a whole heap more than the average citizen. I’m not sure that being able to get fully up and running in a world where everyone else is struggling is sustainable anyhow. Just enough to maintain a few hidden necessities and comforts is what I’ll be aiming for for now.
Either way, I’ll regret what I am setting up now. Either too much or too little.
I couldn’t sell the husband on the expense or necessity of setting up a solar system. He feels like he’s already humored me on all the rest of the prepping and is displeased with the expense. Though, like HBB I have abided by the phylosophy of not buying things we won’t use, eventually. The beans may take a few days to cook nothing happens but will only last a year if something does and don’t have company.
If I can keep my LED lanterns going (C & D) batteries, flashlights, have a crank radio but would like to be able to plug it in and get a good full charge, and my laptop going I think at this point that will be enough. The only other alternative is to look at that TEOTWAWKI situation and then I’m at a loss, it’s beyond my ability to prepare for. I have found that with energy I have a very small middle of the road available to me.
With that in mind, I think I am going to have around US$200 to spend on some sort of solar. Can that even get me anything worth having? What about something that would just charge up my laptop battery and charge the smaller rechargable batteries? I’ve seen some out there but have no experience with them. Do they do what they say? Are there any brands I should avoid? Any thoughts.
Eccles- It may be worth trying to find a source for used batteries pulled from industrial UPS systems. They are usually caviar grade AGM batteries, typically replaced just in case at 3 - 4 years of their 10 year life. Pleading ARES/RACES may help. I had 2 such, but donated them to MS SM and EC in Gulfport after Katrina.
73
farm girl: I took the solar plunge 6 years ago for a variety of reasons, primarily reducing our contribution to global warming, coal power plant pollution, etc. We are also ready for any number of outage scenarios, such as hurricanes (our neighbors were out of power for 7 days), ice storms, terrorist attacks on electrical infrastructure, air burst nuclear infrastructure crippling, rolling blackouts from lack of enough natural gas for peak power turbines, etc.
Our investment will continue working for us 365 days a year for decades. While others may have different preferences, we don’t have to haul any equipment out, fill it with gasoline that might be hard to come by, nor contend with any noise.
The first place to start is with any old energy-wasting appliances, and replacing incandescent lightbulbs with compact fluorescent bulbs. Next is to practice energy conservation on a daily basis, so that you won’t have any ‘culture shock’ when the grid goes down.
There are lots of cost incentives out there right now, from the Federal to the State/local level that can save you quite a bit of money.
If nothing else, you can buy a system that has is sized for a large PV array, but start with a modest number of panels, and buy the rest as you can afford them. That way, your basic system components are already sized for the large array, but your pocketbook won’t be strained.
Eccles wrote; > This week I got in a pile of panels (7×15 watt) and a charge controller for them. I am currently running on a small battery bank mostly 12AH individuals plus a 17 AH, which have been maintained for short-term outages. I’ll be adding a couple of hundred AH to the mix when I save up a few more pennies.
I know you are aware, but others might not realize that battery banks should be purchased and employed at the same time, as battery charged at different levels or at different points in the aging process can dissipate much of the power they are supposed to charge and return. You will obviously tinker around with swapping battery sets in and out due to your advanced understanding of battery aging, etc, though such a practice will be above the heads of the vast majority of those new to the acquisition and operation of electrical power systems.
Consider buying two of these: Brunton Solarport 4.4 Watt Foldable Solar Charger with Battery Charger ($99 each). They can be daisy-chained together.
I guess my problem is that to go with even a small solar setup, I would need to move from having some alternate power ready to go, to having some power being generated and needing to do something with it. Right now I have my battery bank on trickle charge. If I buy some PV panels and a charge controller, it is not my nature to just have it in reserve, I would want to hook it up and make sure everything worked. Am I wrong in assuming that the panels would degrade over time and even a few 15W panels would produce some power that I would need to use in some fashion?
While I do not have a good location for solar energy, I could get a few hours of direct sunlight on a good day, and if the grid is down for a long time I’m sure going to be wishing I had that. Also, God forbid, if we have to move to a more defensible position, I could move it to our farm which is a great location for solar.
Decisions, decisions…
HBB, if you’re not in a good location for solar, how is the situation for other alternatives. Like wind or water? A small wind generator may be something that would work better in your location, and be more fun to build too.
I just remembered a book that I had back in the 70′s. The Mother Earch News Handook of Homemade Power. Something like that anyway. It covered everything from wind and water to methane made from manure. Some of the stuff wasn’t very practicle, but if a copy could be found, I bet that it would still be a good source of ideas.
I thought it was late 70′s, maybe it was early 80′s, that time is kinda hazy now.
Anyway, Amazon dot com has used copies for sale cheap.
AVanarts – at 19:58
My problem is tall trees all over the property, LOTS of trees, most of them planted by my great-grandfather and his brothers and sisters. That makes wind a no-go at my house as well. Now the family farm is a completely different story and it is within walking distance. Clear open spaces, large roof surfaces with southern exposure and the house is situated on a hill. There is always a breeze blowing there. I have run the possibilities through my mind a million times.
Will @18:51-
Yes, I am aware of not mixing and matching batteries of different technologies, age and charge state, but it is good to restate for the average folks out there. Alot of what I am doing usually comes with a crawl under the screen of “Professional Technologist. Do Not Attempt to do this Yourself! Seek Professional Advice!”
One of my daughters has 2 solar panels on the roof of her garage. She was told they were for a diesel truck???? Anyway, how would we go about finding out if they can be used to convert household stuff to it? Thanks, in advance!!
EnoughAlready - Maybe the diesel had a heater to keep the fuel from gelling in cold weather? It’s kind of like a plug in block warmer in a car.
EnoughAlready- What you need to find out is the power output of the panels. Then what you could do with them is to charge a battery bank and run an inverter from them. I’d bet there isn’t near enough to run much of your household on them, but enough to provide a little backup for a few lights or electronic accessories.
Eccles,
Do you ever sleep? What on earth are you plugging yourself into?
Will - Thanks for responding! How do you like your setup? We are interesting in going solar and/or wind as a lifestyle choice as well, not strictly as a pandemic prep. I know this probably sounds silly, but I would rather have someone come out and install a complete setup all at once, just so we have it done and don’t have to think about it too much except for maintenance stuff.
We’ve updated all of our appliances in the past couple years, focusing on efficiency instead of up-front costs. The only thing we have left to do is replace the window air conditioners with a central air unit. Right now we are in a heat wave and need to have the things on, but most of the time opening windows is good enough in Minnesota so it hasn’t been much of a priority. Every light bulb in the house (except for the kitchen overhead) is one of those lower wattage spiral things, if that is the kind you’re talking about. At first I thought they were ridiculously spendy, but I wouldn’t ever go back to the old style now. The only thing that took some getting used to was the lag time between flipping the switch and the light coming on.
Money is always an issue, like I suppose it is for almost everybody, but I’d tend to call it an investment instead of an expense. We could get a mortgage on the house if necessary, or tap into the 401(k), or I could get a job. The feds and state offer great incentives, so that would help with the sticker shock. I’m just trying to figure out what we should be looking at, and hopefully get some tips on how to avoid getting completely ripped off.
Melanie – at 23:48
My theory is that years ago Eccles’ internal clock got disrupted because he was monitoring probes sent to distant planets that do not have anywhere near the day/night cycle of Earth and he has never been able to re-adjust.
Categories
Solar systems can be grouped into 4 categories.
1. “Watch your meter run backwards!” This is a very large solar generating system [2 - 10+ thousand watt] connected to the power grid. This type of system has no local energy storage capability. When the sun shines, you sell power [energy, properly speaking] to the grid; when the sun doesn’t shine, you buy power from the grid. No grid plus no sun equals no power. This is not the preferred approach for our purposes. Typical system cost would be in the tens of thousands of US dollars.
2. “No grid - completely solar.” This would be a large [200 - 2000 watt] solar generating system with a very large battery bank and appropriate controllers and inverters. This is what you would set up for your cabin in the woods that is miles from the nearest powerline. It would be sized to run all of the normal load, all the time - but the “normal load” must be ruthlessly trimmed, as this type of system is more complicated, and so more expensive per watt, because the energy storage function is performed by local batteries, not by the grid.
3. “Just in case.” This would be a modestly sized system with a relatively small solar capacity [50 - 200 watts?] and a significant battery bank [12 volts at 100+ Ampere hours minimum]. For our purposes, it would be enough to run a few lights, charge some flashlights, and run some gadgets - radios, small TV, laptop computer - for a few hours a day. It would NOT give enough capacity for refrigeration, air conditioning, giant TV, or a normal well pump. This would be the sort of system of interest to most Fluwikians. Like category 2, it is expensive because it includes all the components of a complete system.
4. “Toy and novelty.” This would be anything under about 50 watts of solar capacity [opinion]. It would include solar cell phone chargers, small hand portable “power systems”, and the like. Better than nothing, but the cost per watt is disproportionately high, and the actual amount of energy available on a continuing basis is likely to be disappointing.
There are electric shock, fire, explosive gas, corrosive liquid, and even lightning strike risks associated with this equipment, and safety must always be the first consideration.
A significant solar system - more properly, photovoltaic - is not cheap. The best prices for solar panels that I have seen come to around 5 US dollars per watt - and that is just the panels, shipped. It does not include mounting, cabling, charge contollers, batteries, inverters, or system installation and integration. These items would about double the installed cost. A packaged system would cost more than DIY, but might be a safer approach for non-techies.
Finally, no, I do not own a solar electric system myself, but I have been tempted and studying for quite a while.
SIPCT – at 08:12 Excellent post !!
I really hate the thought of laying out the $$$ for a “Just in Case” system, only to have it sit there year after year if there is no pandemic. I already have “normal” power outages handled.
HBB - 0823
If I had a system, I would set up wiring to use it routinely for things like the laptop and ham radio that I can feed 12 volts to directly. It would eliminate the risk of powerline spikes toasting the gear, and would help keep powerline noise away from the ham radio receiver. If the system has an inverter, you could connect it to a few outlets, and run some lights on home made electricity all the time. It would cut the electric bill a little bit.
SIPCT at 08:12 -
Probably a dumb question, but can your category 1 also have local energy storage? Are a grid connection that sells surplus to the power company and local storage for emergencies mutually exclusive? Just curious — I’m a renter, but someday I hope to own my own house where I could do things like install solar power.
Sure, you can add a battery bank to it. The batteries would not normally be part of such a system, and would need some special controlling - you would not want them to discharge into the grid every night, for instance. The thing is, the battery bank to run such a system at full solar capacity would be huge - several TONS of batteries. A smaller battery bank is possible, but from a prep standpoint, you will have spent thousands more than strictly necessary on solar panels. On the plus side, your house would be in full power mode while the sun shines.
farm girl: We really like our system. There is nothing for us to manage or care for, besides checking the battery voltages once a year (we have no-maintenance AGMs). Everything works automatically; the meter spins backwards everytime we generate more power than we use (which is most of the time during non-AC days). We’ve been spoiled during power outages (up to a week at a time), and would do it all over again in a heartbeat.
Anonymoose wrote: Probably a dumb question, but can your category 1 also have local energy storage? Are a grid connection that sells surplus to the power company and local storage for emergencies mutually exclusive?
Actually, it would be better simply to say;
all of which could cover the 1kW to 4kW+ mentioned above.
SIPCT- nice review
Ours fits your #3 class “just in case”. Portable panels (125W), 108 aH batteries (x2), charge controller with meters, battery charger, 1700W inverter, cables, connectors, rolling case etc -just under 3K
SIPCT- I love the way you’ve broken things down. it makes it easier to explain the different levels of system to newcomers.
My own status right now is also #3. Currently have 105W in panels, a single charge controller, and at this moment, running 6X12AH batteries and a 17AH battery with several small inverters (150W) and 1 medium inverter (350W). Planning to add 2X 120 AH AGM batteries and a 1KW inverter to the mix. Also have 5KW generator plus enough fuel stored for a week of continuous or a few months of intermittant operation.
After looking at the economics of the alternatives, I have decided to hold here for now. This won’t get me through TEOTWAWKI, but will handle enough of emergency support that we will be OK for all but the biggest system failures.
Still looking at the 2KW Honda EU gennerator for the quick fix, found em at Northerntool. Eccles, are you looking at the Concorde’s by chance? After satisfying my selfimposed ammount of required investigating I went with the Concorde Sunsavers. Sealed AGM, maintenance free, <1% monthly discharge, good in cold weather.
oops, thats SunExtenders
MAV,
You might try ebay for the Honda 2kw. With shipping, I got mine for $954.75…about $100 or so less than retail and no sales tax (brand new and came direct from a business that sells power supplies). I also purchased an extra air filter element, gapped spark plug and the DC charging cable.
MAV - SInce I am currently kind of flat in the bucks dept., I haven’t done the full shake-out of competing batteries. I’ll certainly look at the Concordes.
I am also not far from a sales office for East Penn Mfg., and thought I might check out their products as well.
Whole Bunches – at 16:29
don’t push me……LOL
That sounds like a good price, Northern was $999 just for the genni though they usually have great shipping deals
As of today its still on the “wishlist”, I’m not liking the fuel outlook this week.
Anybody know if one can put in your own PV system and get the solar power tax credits and state/utility rebates?
Will, mostly:
Yes - a functional system description such as yours is valid.
My breakdown is based partly on the way the vendors of systems seem to have broken the market down. Some go after the big bucks, big array, tax credit grid tied customers, some are after the backwoods boys [and girls], some are chasing hurricane veterans, and some are selling overpriced junk with misleading ads. Most of the latter, fortunately, seem to be in the toy-and-novelty end of the market.
pvwag,
See my response at 18:46 on the 15th
preppiechick at 12:05 on 12 July, we have a DuraFlame ComfortGlow 20,000 Btu propane heater that I bought on ebay (new, not used) for about $125 three years ago that we use as our sole heat source at our off-grid cabin. You’ll find most of these “blueflame” heaters to be manufactured by Desa Corp. Our cabin is at 7,000 feet, and we run the heater off a 40 lb propane bottle. It is designed to either hang on the wall, or metal “feet” can be purchased for it so it can be freestanding anywhere in the room. It is a vent-free model. We have been VERY happy with it… it has three heat levels and can heat our 500 sq.ft. A-frame cabin toasty warm, and we’ve also lent it to neighbors who’ve lost their heat during ice storms. At first we were a little hesitant about it’s safety, but we ALWAYS have a working smoke detector and CO2 detector at the cabin, and after 3 years have had not one problem from it. These little “blueflame” heaters really are great, although you can probably get a better buy on ebay or even at some of the local hardware stores. I would advise anyone looking at these to look for… one that clearly states that no electricity is needed for operation; one that can be adjusted with a turn of the knob to operate at several heat levels (ours will go from 8,000 Btu to 12,000 Btu to 20,000 Btu, depending on our needs); I like the vent-free because it can be made truly portable, but the direct-vent models are slightly more energy efficient; one that has an automatic cutoff if the oxygen level drops too low. Here’s a link to Desa’s website http://www.comfortglowheat.com/productsType.cgi?type=4
Since our cabin has such a steep roof (the peak of the ceiling is 18 feet high) we had a hard time keeping the heat on the main level where we spend 99% of our time, instead of rising up into the loft and the roof peak. We solved that problem by installing a VariCyclone 12 volt DC ceiling fan, which works WONDERFULLY to circulate the air evenly. We also spent $80 on the fan speed control/voltage doubler (well worth the money). Anyone considering a battery system and will need air circulation, I can recommend this setup highly. http://www.kansaswindpower.net/fans,_coolers.htm
Thanks eccles! She is wanting it for backup use on freezers and refrigerator during emergency situations. She would like to use it regularly for hot water heater, and anything else she could manage. I copied and printed the info to give to her husband.
EnoughAlready
Slow and simple, here is what you need to hear…
A generator is a device to manufacture electricity from gasoline. A modest sized generator can produce enough electricity to run your refrigerator and freezer and lighting and your well water pump and TV and computer. All at once. For as long as you run it. It would be a stretch to run an electric hot water heater using a generator of a modest size, as an electric hot water heater needs as much power as almost everything else all put together in your house to run, except for a central air conditioner or heat pump.
To produce this much electricity requires somewhere between 1/4 and 1–1/2 gallon of gasoline per running hour, depending on the size of the generator and the load you put on it. As an example, my generator set produces up to 5,000 watts of power, and burns between 1–2 gallons per hour, depending on the load you make it carry.
A solar panel system is a machine which produces electric power from sunlight, but at much lower levels than a gasoline generator. My system produces about 110 watts during those hours when it is illuminated by full sunlight. Since that is not when I need the power, I “store it up” in heavy batteries, which can store about 1 kilowatt hour of power. I will be increasing the size soon. The stored power in such batteries can run many household items, but only until they are empty, which doesn’t take long if you spend the power unwisely. Then one must wait either for the sun to shine so they can be refilled, or else one must run the generator to provide power to run things, including recharging the batteries.
So lets start from there. I or one of the other good guys who hang out on this thread will be able to fill in as you ask for more info, but that’s the beginning explanation.
Just a comment about solar panels. There is currently a worldwide shortage of panels and it is projected to increase dramatically within the next year as solar panels shipped to europe (especially Germany) are commanding much higher prices as their government provides attractive subsidies for solar installations and there is an increasing shortage of high quality silicon needed to make panels. I am finding as I order panels, the wait is getting longer to receive good, larger size panels, and the prices actually seem to be going up. (especially for the multicrystalline panels) If you are considering getting into solar, think now, and not later. Don.
Also, Eccles, re: solar panels as machine, they actually are more of a device than a machine as they have no moving parts and, solar panels in an array can provide far more energy than most consumer generators. The worlds largest array is in Bavaria and produces about 10 megawatts. Just a little info.
photondon – at 11:00
Eccles was providing a simple explanation. You are preaching to the choir.
Photondon- I was using the term machine in a broad sense. The explanation was being phrased as asked, for the lay person.
Eccles, thanks. My brother has solar stuff, and my husband is open to alternatives… it’s the cost that freezes the plan. Because I am the one with the time to research options and look for good “deals”, it is me who has to ask questions. I have asked my brother to come to this site and help me muddle through this and help me figure it out. Hopefully, he will come and help me ask questions and get answers to the questions I need… and figure out alternatives. Again, thanks for paring this down to “dummie” level. Even at that, I am bewildered! But… hopefully bewildered! :)
It looks like this thread might be dieing, but I’ll bump it anyway.
BUMP
AVanarts – at 08:41:
There are periods of no activity, but the discussion always flares up again. Sort of like H5N1.
In fact, there is a fleeow who has contacted me by e-mail with a similar set of questioons. I owe him an answer to his, and if it looks like it is of general application, I’ll also post it here.
That’s fellow! I don’t know what a fleeow is, but I haven’t had any contact with one of them yet
«Eccles immmediately attempts to contact Mavis Beacon for a refund»
“«Eccles immmediately attempts to contact Mavis Beacon for a refund»”
Lots of luck Professor, she stopped taking my calls a long time ago.
Interestingly enough, I got a call back from her associate, Mr. Rocky McKnuckles. He says he’ll be over shortly with his Louisville Teaching Stick to remedy my problem. See, that’s what comes from dealing with reputable people.
Eccles – at 12:03
(Also, I’m still getting to the main surge protector tutorial, but I’ve been very busy the past few days)
I am waiting with baited breath for this, I didn’t miss it did I?
No. Mea Culpa. I have just been in a very busy period lately, and so I can snipe in quick rejoinders as I swing past the keyboard, but I wanted to do a good job on the tutorial. I am really trying to get to sit down and do this right.
To give Eccles one less task to do, we can turn to How Stuff Works to find a detailed explanation about surge protectors.
Will- That’s a really good introductory article. You’re right, if folks read that first, then we can concentrate on feature and brand recommendations. Thanks for pointing us to this one.
Thanks Eccles and Will. I bookmarked the how stuff works and will read it soon. Thanks for all your effort on this and everything else you do, I’ll just keep checking back…..
bump
I have also been looking at the Xantrex 1500.
From the user’s guide, it states:
A 12-volt solar panel rated to produce a maximum of 12 amps can be used to charge xPower1500 via the DC power socket. Once the solar panel’s DC plug is inserted into the DC Power Socket and the solar panel is placed in the sun, xPower will charge automatically just as with the AC Charger. With direct sunlight, a typical 3 Amp solar panel will charge xPower in about 24 hours. If the solar panel does not have a regulated output, disconnect it immmediately after xPower 1500 is charged.
CAUTION: A solar panel with an unregulated output left connected after charging is complete, or one with an output that exceeds 15 volts DC, can damge the battery pack.
For Eccles and all you other very knowledgeable ones out there, a few questions:
All the panels I see are rated in watts, not amps? Is there a simple way to make a translation? In other words, how many X watts of panels would I need to produce the 3 amps they use as an example?
I read the analogy of putting power into to this thing is like using a straw, does having more panels make the straw bigger or is just wasted because a straw is a straw?
I know these seem like simple questions, but I am really trying to understand the viabilty of solar power as part of a SIP. I know that you guys have said that the way to approach the problem is to ask yourself what it is that you want to accomplish and then work backwards from there and I understand your logic. I know these questions don’t fit that model, but I am just trying to get a basic understanding.
Thanks in advance for your answers, I have read the entire series and have learned much. A lot of it is over my head, but I have been amazed at the level of patience that you have taken sharing your expertise. It is much appreciated.
Anon-in-Ga-
That’s actually a couple of very good questions. First, a solar panel is rated in watts, but actually there are two distinct numbers that a designer needs to know to truly understand its operating abilities. The first is Open Circuit Voltage. This is the voltage that the panel will produce if there is no load on it, just a pair of leads hangin unconnected in the breeze. In the soda straw analogy, you can equate voltage with pressure. Thus, the maximum voltage (pressure) that the panel can produce is the first variable we need to know.
The second variable is Short Circuit Current. This is measured in amps, and is the current that the panel could provide to a circuit with no resistance (i.e. you short the leads together. DON’T DO THAT!). In the soda straw analogy, this would be equivalent to the quantity of water (or electrons) per second that the panel can produce.
Thus we have two parameters to look at, the quantity of electrons that we can push out, and the pressure behind that push. In electronics, these tow numbers multiplied together give us the ‘’Power’ of the panel.
Since solar panels can be made using a number of different materials, technologies and wiring arrangements, they do now all provide the same output voltage, and therefore you can have two panels with the same power rating on their labels which provide different amounts of current and voltage.
Now we come to the batteries we are charging. Rechargeable lead-acid batteries are actually very easy to damage if we mistreat them when we charge them. There are a number of things we can do to damage their internal structures, and what the Xantrex manula is trying to do is to warn you against one of them.
Without getting too technical, when you hook a solar panel to a fairly empty battery, it will permit a large current (amps) to flow through it, and will quickly begin to build up its internal charge. As long as this high level of current is flowing, the voltage (pressure) that the internal battery structures see is within their safe ratings. As the battery begins to accumulate a larger charge, it allows less current (pressure) to flow through, and so the internal structures begin to see increasingly higher voltages.
Now we come to the problem that Xantrex is tryin to avoid- at some point in the charge cycle, if the solar panel provides an open circuit voltage greater than 15 volts, then the internal components of the battery will see that voltage. And that is sufficient to cause internal battery damage.
Depending on the battery design and manufacturer, the maximum charge voltage that most manufacturers of sealed rechargeable batteries (like in the Xantrex) will tolerate is 14.1 to 14.5 volts. Thus, a 15V panel is getting a bit on the high side as the charge finishes off. And a 17V panel can cause real big problems.
The way we get around this is to use a device called a Charge Controller which goes in between the panels and the batteries and which controls how much current and voltage is suplied to the battery, thus avoiding the overcharge and damage situations that Xantrex is trying to avoid.
But that’s the basic answer. if you want more detail or additional descriptions, just ask.
Thanks Eccles, let me chew on this talk to the vendor who is selling the xantrex/solar combo and I am sure that I will have more questions.
Good, now you are ready for the advanced class. Solar panels will frequently put out a higher voltage than a battery can take advantage of, and hence, will ‘loose’ wattage as a result. Sound odd?
Take the Kyocera KC-120 as an example; it is rated at 7.1 amps at 16.9 volts - 7.1 amps times 16.9 volts = 120 watts.
So what happens when you hook up this 120 watt panel to your battery? Unfortunately, what happens is not 120 watts.
Your panel puts out 7.1 amps. Your battery is setting at 12 volts under charge: 7.1 amps times 12 volts = 85 watts. You lost 35 watts - but you paid for 120. That 35 watts is not going anywhere, it just is not being produced because there is a poor match between the panel and the battery. With a very low battery, say 10.5 volts, it’s even worse - you could be losing as much as 35% (10.5 volts x 7.1 amps = 75 watts. You lost 45 watts.
So understand the rated power of any potential purchase in Volts AND Amperes.
Will- Of course, eventually the domestic PV industry will catch up to the spacecraft designers and feed the output of the panels through a charge pump regulator to permit using all of the watts to produce the optimal charge current at any battery terminal voltage.
I’m actually surprised, given the sophisticated user base out there that folks aren’t doing this already. or maybe they are? Can you set me straight on this aspect of the domestic PV community?
would using my charge controller (from the solar set up) off the DC output of my gennie provide a “better” or safer charge of my AGM’s rather than direct t0 batts if/when using the gen to charge up? I have read a bit on DC-DC regulators, not sure I understand the need for my system. Just a thought. Thanks for that MPTT info/link Will
OK. So as I read thr0ough some of the descriptions for some of the high end controllers, they are using DC to DC converter technology to allow efficient use of the excessive voltage by converting the voltages appropriately.
I just wish the copy writers would actually state what the device is, instead of using flowery or voodoo descriptions for what it does.
Eccles: Just a random question sparked by your comment. Obviously solar would work much better in space. Without getting ou your slide rule, how much better than say a sunny day in Phoenix?
HBB, you’re giving away your age when you talk about doing calculations by rubbing sticks together. LOL
Eccles,
There are indeed a growing number of charge controllers available utillzing Multi-Point Power Tracking (MPPT) to convert otherwise lost power into the correct battery voltage. It would be fair to note that such higher voltage panel output situations occur more on cool or cold days, so residents of warm climes (such as Fl, Ga, Tx, etc) would not see as much benefit from such technology.
I haven’t seen much in the way of low power MPPT controllers; the lowest I see in a quick search is a Blue Sky 2512i, which is good for up to 25 Amps at 12 Volts, or 300 Watts (see the datasheet for more info).
My system is currently configured with an Outback MX-60 48V MPPT charge controller, and the output difference over my previous Trace charge controller here in the northern tip of Virginia is significant (20%).
But don’t everyone go thinking that they automatically need an MPPT controller; just be aware of the true power that can be captured w/ and w/o MPPT.
MAV in CO;
Unless your generator comes with a charge controller, then the answer is YES, you would be best served with one. Good charge controllers prevent your batteries from being damaged from inappropriate charging current, and have at least 3 charge levels;
Using such a charge controller with a generator allows one to hear the shift in ‘exertion’ from one level to the next; when Float is acheived, you’re done charging the batteries.
If you have flooded lead acid batteries, then try to acquire a charger that has pulse width modulation (PWM), as that will help reduce sulphation, keeping your battery near its rated capacity much longer.
Eccles and Will,
First of all, let me say thanks for the answers that you have provided not only to me, but throughtout this thread series. This has been one of the most helpful to me since I started reading this board. I don’t know alot about this stuff, so it has been very educational.
The specs on the xantrex/panel combo I am looking at is:
40 Watt Panel Specifications
The 40-watt solar panel is a high efficiency 40 watt photovoltaic module using silicon multi-crystalline cells. The BP 340 photovoltaic solar cell provides superior value and performance for a wide variety of applications.
Rated Power: 40 watts Rated Current @ Pmax: 2.31 amps Nominal voltage: 12 volts Rated voltage @ Pmax: 17.3 Volts Limited Warranty: 25 years Panel measures 21.25″ X 25.75″ X 2″.
System includes: A 40 watt BP 340U Solar panel, the Xantrex XPower 1500, a charge controller, and all the correct cables to make this system entirely plug and play!
I would like to add to this another 40 watt panel and another battery that I would daisy chain off of the one in the xantrex.
If you have time, what do you think I am looking at for recharge times? I know that I am asking a “voodoo” type question as there is probably so many variables that makes this hard to answer, but I respect your knowledge and experience much more than than a salesperson trying to sell me a system. Also, I am just asking in terms of direct sunlight.
I understand what Will said in his post about wasted voltage, the battery can only handle so much pressure thru the straw and the rest is wasted. Does adding a second battery to this change the mix? Or is it fill up the first and then move to the next?
Again, sorry for the simplicity of the questions.
Thanks
HBB- To answer your question- In space, no one can hear you scream.
Now on to the amount of energy that a solar panel can capture. The maximum amount of energy available to the panel first depends on a value called The Solar Constant, which represents the amount of energy from the sun per square meter above the Earth’s atmosphere, at the nominal sistance of the Earth’s orbit from the sun. While there are many possible numbers I can give you, the most simplistic of those numbers is about 1370 watts per square meter.
But that energy is not all convertible by a solar panel into electricity (wrong wavelengths). This give us a second number, which as a rule of thumb is about 1,100 watts per square meter.
But now we have to shine down through the filthy atmosphere onto the surface of the earth. by the time we get there, we are lucky to snag between 600 and 800 usable watts per square meter.
Then the unfortunate issue with the current generation of solar panels is their efficiency. If I use a number somewhere between 10 and 20 percent to typify what can be achieved by current devices, you will be lucky to recover between 60 and 80 watts per square meter of semiconductor (note that not all of the exposed are of the panel is usable semiconductor due to structural and wiring issues).
Finally, you must then reuce the energy captured further by the cosine of the angle that the panel makes to the axis of the incoming energy.
And all of this is before the wiring losses, possible diode losses in some systems and the ever popular charging efficiency of the bateries.
it is kind of like starting out with a full sack of groceries and by the time you get home you are left with a single can of tuna.
Will, thanks for your answer. I am using a Morningstar Prostar 15amp controller between the panels and the batts when soaking rays. My question is if I am using the gen (Honda EU2000) to charge the batts should I: A) go from the DC output on the gen- directly to the batt B) put my charge controller in line between the gen DC out and the bat or C: get some other device AC (ie. AC battery charger) or DC (ie. DC-DC regulator) off the gen to afford the “best” charge to the batts when I am charging from the gen.
Thanks (125W panel, Concorde AGM 216 aH)
anon_in_ga,
I’ve laid out a way to estimate the amount of energy one can capture from the sun in their location in my book here online. Use winter solar insolation values, as this prepares you for understanding what you can expect if an outage occurs in January, for example. As a rough rule of thumb only,
Energy = panel rating in watts x sun-hours equivalent x general loss factor (conservatively 0.6)
If you have two 40 watt panels in Georgia tilted south at latitude + 15 degrees in January, expect to capture;
80 x 4 x 0.6 = roughly ‘200 Watt-hrs per ‘average’ day
MAV in CO;
There are many grounding, reverse flow isolation, fuzing, and other considerations that you would need to talk over with an electrician in your area experienced in this type of configuration and knowledgeable of the code requirements for your jurisdiction. Trying to do this level of design and installation specification is beyond the scope of a forum setting as we have here, especially if you want an autostart generator capability. If you plan to physically throw a switch to disconnect the panels and simultaneously connect the generator (“break before make”) to the charge controller, then the solution is more simple and will require less sophisicated equipment and labor cost.
I am just barely comfortable with people using small PV package systems on their own; when the complexities of a seamless hybrid approach are desired, I always recommend a local renewable energy electrician to ensure safety of you (and your family). With that being said, however, if your charge controller came with instructions on how to hook up a generator as well, you should be safe if you follow all the instructions and always disable and disconnect one power source before enabling and connecting another.
anon_in_ga wrote: >I understand what Will said in his post about wasted voltage, the battery can only handle so much pressure thru the straw and the rest is wasted. Does adding a second battery to this change the mix?
No, it merely means that the power at the higher voltage range is not realized. If an ACME battery can bulk charge at 14.5 volts and a panel can produce 5 amps at 17 volts (85 watts possible), you would only be able to harvest 14.5V * 5A, which is 72.5 Watts. Another battery wouldn’t change this (you may be thinking about peak amperage charging levels, which is different).
> Or is it fill up the first and then move to the next?
I highly recommend charging and discharging all batteries together; indeed, purchase them at the same time and always configure them in one bank (unless you have the advanced knowledge and experience to do otherwise). There’s less hassle with connecting/disconnecting, guessing about depth of discharge, timing the switchover points to avoid wasting power, etc. And you can power larger loads with more batteries pulling together, much like a team of horses.
AVanarts – at 10:31
You know you are getting old when you don’t even try to hide it anymore….
By the way, after the Pulse, (apologizes to Dark Angel), when electronic devices are useless and you need to do complex calculations, I know a guy in Eastern PA that will sell you a slide rule.
HBB- The price just went up to $100 each. Cash. This week. If I like you.
Will thanks again. My system is 125 W, portable panels. Not connected to the house. The controller (MorningStar) has nothing that I could find about using it to “condition” DC generator out put for charging batteries. I guess I am not asking this question sucinctly. How about this. What would provide a “better” (safer, full capacity) charge coming off a generator A)pluging an AC battery charger into the generator B) using generator 12V DC output cables directly to the battery (as the generator manual offers) I understand they will both work but I’m thinking the juice comming directly off the gen may not be the best for the AGM batteries therefore maybe DC→DC not the best method. thanks again to everyone with this thread and for your help with these ?’s.
MAV - If it was me, I’d use a smart charger running off of the AC output of the generator. The generator will just be pushing out soul-less/God-less DC which will be fed to your battery whether it likes it or not. A charger with some compassion toward the goals and aspirations of your batteries would be preferable.
I echo Eccles explanation exactly excepting 1 expectation; Find out the output of the DC portion. Often, the DC side of the output is small in comparison to the AC side (and we are talking about AC generators, of course). If that’s the case, AC is the only way to go. If not, you have options for DC charging as well, bu it would have to be tempered by the dogma of a charger.
Also check the setting of your charger with respect to the charging specifications of your AGMs. And under NO circumstances should you attempt to equalize your AGMs (just in case you didn’t already know).
thanks, that was my lay-impression. I feel like I want to LUV my batteries so they will take good care of me when its time for them to “pay off”.
When I said ‘equalize’ I meant an equalization charge that is needed periodically for flooded lead acid batteries to remove sulphation and ‘stir up’ the electrolyte. AGMs need neither.
Eccles and crew:
Thanks for all the great info on solar, but my budget still only says “generator”. I picked up a used 4500 w that hadn’t been run for a few years for a good price. Cleaned out the gunk in the fuel lines, new plug and it fires up (after several pulls).
I know that generators should be fired up and put under load every month, but this one sat since Y2K without running. Will I be running into problems with loss of magnetism etc in the generator, and if so, what can I do to rectify?
I would say your best bet would be to contact the mfg and see what they say about a unit that has laid fallow for so long.
I know that this has most likly been covered, however;
What are the risks with using a Kerosene Heater??
Storage of fuel is one.
Fire in the house is another
What about fumes (Carbon Dioxide etc)????
How long would one last on a full tank of fuel.????
Could you put brinks under a steel sheeting to protect the floor????
How stupid is this ?????
Anon_451, I’m probably not really qualified to address all of the questions you have, but I did heat with only Kerosene for one full winter. We had two Kerosene heaters in the house.
Fuel was stored in a shed separate from the house.
Fire is a potential problem any time you have comubstables around, but Kerosene is probably one of the safer of the liquid fuels. (Just my opinion)
As far as CO or CO2? No one died in our house. Kerosene fumes when lighting or extinguishing the flame can be a problem. The fumes are especially strong when shutting down the heater, so it is best to carry it outside to shut it off. Anyone who isn’t physically capable of carring the heater outside to turn it off probably won’t be happy with one due to the smell.
I don’t remember how long a tank lasts on my KeroSun, but it should be listed on the box or manual when you are shopping for a heater. I don’t recall filling mine more than twice a day.
You shouldn’t need to put anything under it to protect the floor. The heater doesn’t get hot at the bottom. The heater should also come equipped with a spill pan that sits under it.
There ain’t no stupid questions.
Hope that helps.
AVanarts – at 22:42 Did you vent the unit through a window??? Or was that needed??
Anon_451 – at 00:36
The kerosene heaters I have used were unvented. They burn pretty efficently, but they do use up oxygen so they should not be used in a closed bedroom. There are minimal fumes, but we had dry sinuses, sore throats, etc. I wouldn’t want to have that as my only source of heat, but they make a good backup system. I used them because heating oil at that time was scarce and very expensive.
Thanks Bill: I was planning on using my fireplace as the primary. However I was concerned that it would not be enough in the depth of winter. Wanted a good add on that would keep the family warn when it really got bad.
Ours were unvented and the only time we had an “issue” with fumes was at shutdown, although I have heard some complain of smells when lighting their heaters.
As Bill pointed out, like anything that burns, they use oxygen, so shouldn’t be used in a room that is completely closed up. We used ours in the living areas of a double wide mobile, and with people coming and going, had no problem.
Anon_451-
Another adjunct heater that you might consider is the Mr. Heater Buddy. It is a propane heater that runs either from 1 lb. canisters or from a barbecue sized tank. At high setting, it thros about 9000 BTU/hr, and at low setting it throws about 4000. This would equate to about 3 hours on high and 6–7 hours on low per canister.
After considering the alternatives, I have decided on this one for my own backup heating. You might look into it and see if it fills your needs.
Eccles – at 13:27. CO2 out put was a little higher than I wanted. Also all of my propane is dedicated to cooking. That is going to be a trick in and of it’s self. Big family that likes to eat.
Anon_451-
Consider that you would need to stock a supply of kerosene for the Kero heaters, just the same you would stock a seperate fuel supply for the little propane heater. The difference there is that the barbecue tanks are common as dirt, easy to store, and you can refill the 1 lb canisters from the barbecue tanks. Thus, you might consider this completely independent from you cooking fuel, yet be able to trade back and forth in a real tight situation.
Those of you who plan to use a wood buring fireplace for some or most heating if TSHTF, are you considering using a fireback? I know these were very commonplace, but wondered if they really work before I purhase one. Also, I am looking into microhydro alternator, and although looks very interesting, has anyone had personal experience with these? Thanks.
Strider – at 17:47
“I know that generators should be fired up and put under load every month, but this one sat since Y2K without running. Will I be running into problems with loss of magnetism etc in the generator, and if so, what can I do to rectify? “
Is this a problem with gasoline/diesel or it applies to propane as well?
I am leaning towards propane generator for safer storage, fuel shelf life,and cleaner operation.
Received my backup generator and would like to leave it alone (unused) until needed so I don’t have to change oil/empty gas etc if it sits for a year. This obviously goes against some prepping fundamentals but thinking that it would “store” better in its unused state. Thoughts?
Cabingirl I heated with wood for 7 years and intend to heat with it come H5N1. I can’t speak to a fireback, but I strongly encourage a woodstove/fireplace insert. The amount of heat they give out is much better than a fireplace, and the wood consumption and smoke output are much lower on a modern catalytic converter stove. You can cook and heat water on them, and they are much safer than fireplaces.
cabingirl: I would echo Gary’s thoughts; a fireback might get you to 5–10% overall efficiency. A good woodstove should achieve at least 62%. Think of it as needing 6–12 times less wood cut, stacked, and brought in for the same amount of heat.
This would be better discussed in a wood heat thread.
MAV - I understand the sentiment. On the other hand, imagine your embarrasment when you actually need you preserved pristine genny, unpack it and discover only then some manufacturing discrepancy. Not only will you be standing there looking foolish, but no one will honor any warrantee, as it expired 6 months ago.
Anon_451 – at 13:32
I am also storing propane for cooking but just in case I think I’m going to get one of the heaters Eccles mentioned. As far as storing more propane, I saw 80lb tanks for sale at Lowes and I can get them filled right down the road for a decent price. You can fill a lot of 1lb tanks from one of those babies.
Eccles, would you mind providing the link for the “refiller” hose you bought?
So let it be written, so let it be done.
Here is the LINK to the device in question.
Please note that the refill occurs in the liwuid state, so the master tank needs to be upended. I don’t think you’ll be able to do that with an 80 pounder. I’d stick to like 30 or 40 pound tanks to use for refilling.
Arrggh! LIQUID STATE
I really need to talk to Mavis about this.
You fill the cylinder with liquid from the master, so you need the master to be upside down. Otherwise all you get is gas, which won’t fill the cylinder.
I know Eccles. I barely managed to write out that post knowing as I wrote what the answer was…lol
Gary, Will —Thank you for your replies. I’ve been checking into an inserts too, but was hoping I could cook using the fireplace. I have a large raised hearth, so a stand-alone would be a little awkward in our case. Was really hoping fireback would be more beneficial. Oh well, back to researching stoves and hydro power (this, I’m very excited about). The prospects of having fresh water, heat and a little power has really got me motivated again. Thanks again.
Eccles and Will, thanks for your feedback. I am learning much about something I wish I didn’t need to know>
We’re here to teach. If you are learning new stuff, then we are succeeding.
“I am learning much about something I wish I didn’t need to know”
So many people don’t even care to learn. You can see them all the time on the news standing in long lines waiting for water, food and ice. There favorite mantra is:
“Somebody needs to do something about this!”
Their….getting more coffee.
Hillbilly Bill at 08:09 - AMEN!!!
Eccles – at 20:21
I have this device, and have used it, and the verdict is…ehhhhhh. It works best early in the morning when both the main tank and the little cannister are as cool as they will be. It must be done outside, the tailgate of the pickup is a good spot, but if it’s raining, then it is done in the rain. During connect and disconnect, a lot of gas gets spilled. You get less liquid in the cannister than you think you ought to by rights, but it seems better to disconnect early than to wait. Just mentally picture filling 1-liter water jugs from a fire hose and you will have a good idea what you are up against. It works, but we question our sanity in using it.
Roger that. it is a stopgap to be sure, but at least it provides an option to dragging a 20–40 pound tank into the house.
wetDirt – at 11:24
I bought one, haven’t tested because I don’t have an empty 1lb canister. Your picture of drinking from a fire hose is vivid. Would it reduce leakage if the tank regulator is turned on very slowly, after connecting?
Growing up, we had a 2-fuel stove, kerosene for heat and propane for cooking. The propane tank was outside the kitchen and was delivered by truck. I sort of remember the deliveryman using a handtruck. There were common in Connecticut. My point is, could a large tank be piped through the wall to the stove?
ANON-YYZ – at 11:42 Yes, I don’t open the valve fast, and of course shut it off all the way when disconnecting, but between the escaping gas and my overly vivid imagination, it’s still a nerve-wracking process. ++hangs head++ So I still take the tank into the cabin a lot, it’s so full of air leaks I don’t worry about gas buildup. Once the new doors and sheetrock are up, though, it will be a different story.
saved before it slipped from sight.
Last night while I was mowing, (always lots of time for idle thoughts), I realized that when I have finally purchased all the components I need for an alternative power system, I will have spent approx $2,000 for the ability to bake a loaf of bread every other day, check the internet (if available) for news for an hour a day, and watch a DVD 3 or 4 nights a week on a TV that all the family memebers can see at once.
Damn pricey when you are your own power company.
MAV-
I agree with Eccles. WHen we bought our brand-new generator, I read ALL the instructions, provided proper fuel and synthetic lube oil, started it, and WHAT WAS THAT NOISE? Checked the oil and it seemed clear from the metal shavings that there was a loose bolt in the crankcase. Groan. Call Lowes, load the $%^&* 400 lb thing back on the truck and get another. I give Lowes credit, they never hassled me at all and gave us another generator that night. Worked just fine and has done so for over a year now. We use it every week or so. But if I had waited until I needed it I’d be screwed.
Test it before you need it, is what I say.
On another note, if you want a good fireplace and are building yours, try a Rumford. Wide, tall and shallow, they radiate a LOT of heat into a room. Much better than any conventional fireplace. Not as good as a stove, though, but I like fireplaces.
Eccles, BTW, re my Tempest rated room here’s why-
EMP
RMI/EMI issues relating to high-powered linears, VCRs/DVD players and other consumer electronics, and my DW. She *likes* to watch her Star Trek tapes. That’s where the linear will be when I get back on the air.
the only complex item is the door and the filters for cables in and out; I figure the whole thing will cost me under $2k which is cheap for domestic tranquillity
thanks LMW, its a Honda so I wouldn’t expect that but when TSHTF TSHTF. Tried to get a couple spare plugs and turned out they are special order, non-resistor type. I will fire the little guy up today.
MAV- See? it’s stupid little things like hard-to-get plugs that will kill each of us at one point or another.
LMW- You could always do it the way I do, and just run QRP. It takes a real man to run QRP and still place well in Nov CWSS.
Good Lord, how many licensed hams are there here? I was licensed as a tech in California since the mid-1960s, and upgraded to a General here in Colorado. I can dust off my ICOM 706 and run HF/6 meter/2 meter/440MHz w/ 100 watts out to a multiband vertical mounted on the roof. Do we need to start a thread (or has there been one in the past) regarding establishing a voice HF net on 20 or 40 meters? My CW skills aren’t up to the task of participating in a CW net.
Dennis- A net has been brought up before. The problem is that folks like myself who have elected anonymity can’t do that putting our calls up either here or checking in on the air.
Dennis- What better way to improve your skills than to work such a net on CW. Folks like myself will slow down as much as needed to keep from losing a new CW op.
(BTW: Licensed since 1968. Novice → General → Advanced)
Hey there. I tried to send this last nite, but had some “connectivity” problems. I’m not sure this belongs on this thread, but here goes…
Yesterday, DH told me he had talked with this guy seated next to him during a long plane flight. The man told him he sold power from one (electric) company to another. I never even knew that happened or that there was such a job. I DID know that power was transferred as needed, from one part of the power grid to another, but I never knew HOW it happened…
Anyway, he proceeds to tell him that the US power grid is in terrible shape. He said the infrastructure is archaic, and in great need of updating. He said it was so bad, it was in danger of collapsing. And he also said that no money has been allocated to remedy this situation.
He said that our local power company maintains what is there, but that they are not in charge of updating. He said that is the responsibility of the state/federal governments.
Do any of you electrically-knowledgeable humans know if this is indeed true? That was not very reassuring. I keep thinking of the stress that our increased technology and increasing population must be putting on our power grid.
If this IS true, I can see where having alternate or even back-up power sources could be useful not only in times of emergency, but on an as needed basis.
Tell me it ain’t so! Is this also true of Canada and Europe, etc.? Does anyone know?
nsthesia – at 13:16
From what I have read, that is precisely the state of the electric grid infrastructure in this country.
Having an alternate source of electricity is prudent. Believe me, you will need it some day.
nsthesia – at 13:16
One problem we have in Ontario, Canada is the Not In My Backyard syndrome. As population density grows in urban centres, so does need for electricity. Huge political opposition to build new trasmission towers or upgrade existing ones to higher voltage for more capacity.
AFAIK, the last major black out of 2003 in North Eastern U.S. and Ontario was a problem of grid capacity, not generating capacity - which is another problem.
Electricity supply is vulnerable.
We are not reinvesting, we are eating our seed corn.
Nsthesia- Well, when this has come up in the past, I have repeated what I have heard from folks that oughta know that the NE grid at least is rather shakey. That was reacted to strongly by folks on the Wikie who claim direct knowledge of the situation and who insist everything is peachy. So I will sit down, shut up, and believe what I personally believe. (You can get a clue to my beliefs by determining whether I seem to act in a way which causes me to rely solely on the commercial power grid).
As to the sale of power. It is an economic necessity. Electricity is the only commodity I can think of that disappears the instant you produce it. You either use it, or it was never really there to begin with (don’t try to understand that last comment if you don’t already understand it). So a power company who has excess power available is best off selling it to someone else on the grid who needs it. Both parties walk away happy.
G! I was afraid of that…that is another variable to consider with a national disaster of any magnitude. If we are in that much trouble already, undue stress on one area for whatever reason is sure to cause a domino effect in the others.
It appears that solar technology is finally becoming main-stream. We have a article in our local paper speaking of the increase in sales from last year to this year. Seems you may be eligible for federal and state tax rebates/credits.
“The Internal Revenue Service will provide homeowners with a 30 percent tax credit of up to $2,000 per system for photovoltaic or solar domestic water heating systems. Before January, there was no credit for homeowners installing solar.”
“And businesses can now get a bigger tax break - 30 percent as opposed to 10 percent - with no cap on the amount of the credit.”
We want to build an eco-green home. Seems sooner vs. later might be a good idea.
Eccles- QRP is great if you have space for a good antenna. When I started in 1974 I was running 5 watts CW on a homebrew crystal rig to a 1/4 wave 80 meter vertical and getting killer signal reports. The vertical used a swamp as a ground plane….
More recently I have not had that luxury, but now I have room for a 160 meter dipole. However, even though I have space for a good antenna farm it sure is nice to have the power too if needs be- to quote Mae West “quantity has a quality all it’s own!” I may not always need 1.5 KW but it sure is nice to have, especially on those marginal days. I have worked the sweeps and field day on phone and CW and I think I’ll stay in the shack. Actually I am not licensed now- I have been too busy the last number of years and let my ticket lapse. (yes, I am past the grace period) Maybe this winter I’ll have time to take the tests and get another general.
As regards power, for those thinking of high duty cycle long term power supply I strongly suggest that you consider slow speed listeroid diesel power, 600–850 RPM. You can run a 20 hp diesel listeroid for a ridiculously low fuel consumption.
LMW- Currently running a 40M horizontal loop up about 11 feet (above the grass, it functions more like up 25–35 feet above a ground plane). Also using 80/40 Isotron pair up 17 feet. For limited space/low visibility antennas, these are amazing devices. When installed per mfg directions, they perform very, very well. I do QRP CWSS on them and still place well.
An excellent read for the North American grid is Final Report on the August 14th 2003 Blackout.
Eccles,
Interestingly, there was a segment on the NBC evening news tonight. It focused on California, but as goes California, so goes…
And as far as whether I believe if there could be a problem with our power grid, I suppose all one has to do is keep their eyes open. Seems we are having more and more problems. And, IMO, the man who spoke to my DH would have no hidden agenda. This has been his profession for 30 years and he is concerned.
Additionally, if we keep having these years with extreme temperature changes that seem to be more the norm than the exception, then imagine the stress on our system. I’m with you…having a back-up only seems logical. Especially here in FL - the heat is deadly without power.
And just who do you think would be brave enough (politically) to announce that we need a total revamping of our power grid? Where do we get the money, who pays for it? How long would it take? Guess it would take a massive failure to get anyone to listen anyway. I suppose if it is as problematic as this man said, it will be just a matter of time.
nsthesia-
Many of the issues reported throughout the Fluwikie seem to be linked to the same problem. US business is like a kid without good parents. Instead of using his Christmas money for underwear and socks, he has decided to spend it solely on “fun” stuff like Magic cards and snacks. (Or in the case of business, Wall street and CEO salaries).
Unfortunately, we will all suffer for his lack of discipline, either sooner, through forced layoffs and right-sizing, or later through inadequately stocked stores, utilities and hospitals.
Read “Atlas Shrugged” if you want a prescient view of what is presently occurring here in the United States. Rand really did know what was going to happen. Well, she did miss the flu part, but nobody’s perfect. Whenever I hear something like this last, I always recall the part where Dagny Taggart is awakened by the train not running. She asks why the train is not running and is told they are stopped for a signal that the engineer thinks is broken. When she asks what they are doing, she is told that the crew is waiting for the signal to change.
Yep, LMWBR. I remember “Altas Shrugged.” One of my favorite books.
In my quest for understanding, I found this article. Might explain some of the conflicts re: if it is or if it isn’t broke.
“The net result of the new rules was to more tightly couple the system physically and stress it closer to capacity, and at the same time, make control more diffuse and less coordinated—a prescription, engineers warned, for blackouts.
In March 2000, the warnings began to come true. Within a month of the Supreme Court decision implementing Order 888, electricity trading skyrocketed, as did stresses on the grid (Figure 3). One measure of stress is the number of transmission loading relief procedures (TLRs)—events that include relieving line loads by shifting power to other lines. In May 2000, TLRs on the Eastern Interconnect jumped to 6 times the level of May 1999. Equally important, the frequency stability of the grid rapidly deteriorated, with average hourly frequency deviations from 60 Hz leaping from 1.3 mHz in May 1999, to 4.9 mHz in May 2000, to 7.6 mHz by January 2001. As predicted, the new trading had the effect of overstressing and destabilizing the grid.”
After reading this article, I am even more convinced an electrical back up plan is needed.
That’s what we’ve been trying to TELL you.
“After reading this article, I am even more convinced an electrical back up plan is needed”
Wait until you find out how much “fun” it is to play power company…
as I, HBB and others have found, being your own power company is easy, cheap and fun. (Not!)
Eccles – at 15:14
Sorta reminds me of those pictures you sometimes see on the front of the instructions for assembling a complex household item. The man looks happy as he holds two sections together. His wife is smiling at him as she hands him a screwdriver. Everything looks easy and wonderful until you really start trying to do it.
They come from Smiling Happy People World. The same place the folks who come in your wallet picture holders come from.
Unfortunately, I come from Everything blows up, melts down and makes a mess world. I applied for membership in that other world, but they were all full up.
Eccles – at 15:27
At least you got an application.
In the time I have been using solar and wind I have seen quite a few “turn key” operations. Mine is not one of them.I suppose that if you have the money that is ok but if it goes down you will not know how to fix it. I am responsible for ALL of my own power. Sometimes I wish I did not have that responsiblity, but that wish is not strong enough to get me to move off of my 40 acres into town. Kelly
Eccles, you have quite humorously explained the default approach in so many other domains than the power infrstructure…
Now my feelings are REALLY hurt… Eccles completed application for Smiling Happy People World was turned down, and HillBilly Bill was denied even an application form to fill out… but hell, nobody even told me there WAS a Smiling Happy People World. I am crushed ;)
Kim- My whole life I have had to deal with a category of folks whom I call the Snootingtons. These people live a well rewarded life in expensive homes, dressed in nive argyle sweater vests and drink European Jamocha Latee La-La’s. When they encounter me, they usually act as though the cat dragged someting disgusting into the room. These are the same people that run the Smiling Happy People World review committee. They meet every weekend at the country club.
While they are doing that, I am probably frantically rolling on the floor in the basement immediately after the exploding and the burning and the melting and the screaming.
Perhaps I need to change my pastimes or associates?
Eccles – at 18:31 I did not even know there was a Smiling Happy People World. Not only was I denied an application I did not even know it existed. Know I know what all those people were talking about just as I walked up.
On a better note. Eccles do you think a lot of pinwheels in the front yard would make a good power company? Or would I need a real wind mill?
Eccles, I am glad to know that you must also deal with the Snootingtons, and that you elicit the same reaction from them as I do. I for one, am quite satisfied with my pastimes and associates here in lovely Lowly Lowly Land, and assume that you are satisfied with yours… I suggest we do as we have always done and give a curt nod in passing to those Snootingtons, and leave them to their snootiness as we sneak off into our basements for yet another exciting blow-em-up session. As they strain to impress one another with daintily sipping their Latee La-La’s, we shall be off having FUN!
Kim - Right you are. I shall go immediately to the basement and blow myself up again just to show them! The nerve, thinking my explosions aren’t good enough for them.
Now then, shall we form the Lowly Lowly Land application review board so that after TSHTF, THEY need to apply to US for membership?
Anon_451
That might work. but its gonna take ALOT of pinwheels to run that central air heatpump. I don’t know of they have enough pinwheels in the Just-In-Time supply chain to equip even one single house on the whole country.
Hillbilly Bill – at 15:21,
Have you got a wrench I can borrow? I’m a single and have to figure this all out by myself.
Eccles, that’s a WONDERFUL idea (creating the Lowly Lowly Land review board, not blowing yourself up again ;) Ooohhhh, what fun we can have in creating the questions for their application! Ooohhhh, and there should be a test covering “Practical Demonstrations of Knowledge”, such as “Please demonstrate exactly how to create a meal from the ingredients of beans, rice, and water”. I could use a good laugh as they try to figure out just what the heck a propane stove is, and it will be lotsa fun to watch them ponder just how they can make the beans and rice edible (as we all know, the Snootington’s are incapable of creative thought processes, so it should be a hoot to watch!).
This is the bestest fun I’ve had since landing in a lightning storm at LAX last Sunday!!! But, alas, the thread is getting long, and we must continue our journey through Lowly Lowly Land and the Gated Community of Snootingtons on another thread.
Oh yeah…you’ll find that thread over here!