Continued from the illustrious Part 5, found raght heah, where you can also find links to Parts 1,2,3 and 4!!
Kim – at 20:12
Eccles, that’s a WONDERFUL idea (creating the Lowly Lowly Land review board, not blowing yourself up again ;) Ooohhhh, what fun we can have in creating the questions for their application! Ooohhhh, and there should be a test covering “Practical Demonstrations of Knowledge”, such as “Please demonstrate exactly how to create a meal from the ingredients of beans, rice, and water”. I could use a good laugh as they try to figure out just what the heck a propane stove is, and it will be lotsa fun to watch them ponder just how they can make the beans and rice edible (as we all know, the Snootington’s are incapable of creative thought processes, so it should be a hoot to watch!).
Melanie – at 20:08
Absolutely Melanie. It’s got a little melted spot on it from where it touched the other battery terminal one time, and that rust-colred stain is from my skinned knuckles…
It is a rare sighting, but sometimes I spot a pair of Snootingtons at Lowes Depot. They have their sweater vests on and they are buying things like pre-finished walnut knick knack shelves. Meanwhile I am in the plebian aisles loading up a cart with ridiculously expensive 2 x 4′s and rolls of insulation.
Bump.
For folks looking to get a basic solar capability in hand without spending a ton of money, you might look at the sale currently going on at NorthernTool. (I have no association with them other than sending them alot of my money all the time, and I have bought these panels for my own use).
For comparison shopping purposes, under $5/watt is a good deal. These panels are $2.20/watt. This is a very good deal. Please snap these up, you’d be nut not to.
Well, I’m off tonight back to my cabin to play connector bingo on my system. If you see a flash on the southwest horizon, it was Lightning. Lighting, I say. wD
Math correction for wetDirt - They’re about $4.40 per watt. Still a very good deal.
Thanks for the catch. Will put solar calculator back out into full sunlight. Wish that would work for brain.
After a tip from the PanGalactic Field Marshall, I ordered some also and as some may know I’m not a big solar fan.
Hey Hillbilly Bill, I never really pictured you as a big solar fan anyway… just never imagined you with big flapping blades and a solar panel on your head…
Sorry, couldn’t resist the play on words ;)
Hey! I wuz gonna say that as soon as I read what he said!
Sorry, Eccles, that I beat ya to it. Can I send you a partial roll of toilet paper as a consolation prize?
That’s OK. I wouldn’t ant to rub you the wrong way ;-)
Geez…leave the keyboard for a few hours after a hasty comment and look what happens!
Eccles, another reason to test the new gennie we hadn’t thought of. I am a bit over 7500 feet elevation here. Apparently there is a simple “adjustment” that should be made to maximize output. If the local Honda power tool dealer hadn’t offered to tweak it for free I’d be suspicious. Hadn’t thought of that one.
I suspect that would be the Mixture control for the carb?
Bump
Going to pick up my generator after church this morning. It REALLY has been difficult waiting to make this purchase, but I determined that since I didn’t have to order this item I was going to wait for the cash in hand. Heaven knows I have made too many credit purchases for prepping items.
The good news - HBB had all preps in position. The bad news, he overextended himself on credit and they were repossesed a week and a half before TSHTF.
:-)
Eccles – at 08:25
Now that would be a bit** wouldn’t it?
I’m happy to say that I have my new generator assembled and I ran it for about 20 minutes just to make sure it started and didn’t make any strange noises. I will need to purchase materials to ground it before I can put a test load on it. Now I have some wiring changes to make inside the house to take full advantage of the generator.
HBB- If you can, a full transfer panel is really the way to go. I really appreciate the ability to switch the circuits in my house between mains and genny, and to watch the meters display the actual loads on each of the phases.
What brand and how big did you get?
A transfer panel is the plan. Waiting for an estimate from my electrician Bubba. If we have any outages before the installation I will be going the extension coed route. Darn near got rattled out of bed last night by thunderstorms but the power stayed on.
This is the one I bought.
Hbb- Knowing where you work, my one question is- Does the extension have any other coeds?
Bill- Also, my one suggestion with that particular fuel tank arrangement is don’t refuel when the motor is hot. You really don’t want to try the “spilled gas on a hot motor” experiment.
Eccles – at 11:26
What brand and model of transfer switch did you install and what type of metering did you install as well. Thanks
Hi everyone,
Does anyone know about solar power in the UK? I know there are grants and companies that will do the installation for you. Anyone know of any?
Thanks
Eccles – at 12:03
That was more than likely a Freudian slip. This is a visitation day at the flagship institution and there is a plethora of potential coeds wandering around. The stimulation available on a post-secondary campus is not exclusively mental.
Eccles – at 12:14
One of the “features” I noticed as well. In fact the gas tank has a circular hole in it above the engine heat shield. More than likely a change in design after some intial tests….
Sailor- The panel that I had installed is Labelled EmerGenSwitch and was made by Connecticut Eletcrical Switch Co. The meters are built in, and measure power in each of the phases. the meters are calibrated in 0–3750 watts markings.
this particluar panel provides 10 single (120V) circuits which can be switched between mains and generator, and two switches can be ganged to provide 220V lines the ability to be switched into the generator.
The panel was installed by a local electrical contractor who does alot of generator jobs, and I also had him run an umbilical line to the rear of the house so I could run the genny back there, where it would be less obvious and less approachable.
He also provided the power cord to plug into the generator and the house, which his guy made up on the spot using (I think) #8 cable.
I have it set up to provide a couple of zones of electric baseboard heat, the power for the well pump and 4 circuits of wall outlets and lighting.
I got part of my order from Northern Tools yesterday, one solar panel and the box with the charge controllers and other items I ordered. Hopefully there will be 6 more boxes waiting on my porch this evening.
Have you assembled any of your equipment yet Eccles?
I have unpacked and checked out each of the panels. I have no plans to put up anything more substantial until the heat is gone. No need to work out in 100 degrees when 60 degrees is just 6 or 7 weeks away.
Since I have checked the panels out, I am going to assume that they will hold up and work when needed.
Also, this fall I intend to purchase a substantially improved battery capacity.
Eccles – at 09:24
Actually I was looking forward to clinging to a scorching roof this weekend in record heat and humidity to attach the panels while angry wasps buzzed around my head. Now after reading your post, I am beginning to question my sanity.
Maybe I’ll test the health of my battery bank in the cool basement instead.
Crazy American Lady in the Village – at 12:59
“Does anyone know about solar power in the UK? I know there are grants and companies that will do the installation for you. Anyone know of any?”
Try this
bump
Hearing reports on CNN this morning about desperate pleas from utility companies in the northeast for their customers to conserve electricity just reinforced for me how fragile our power grid is.
Or, the alternative theory which has been advanced here, from time to time by some participants…
The power won’t go off. The power can’t go off. You’re crazy if you think the poweer could go off. It is unthinkable that the power could go off. They’d never allow the power to go off. You are all nuts. The power and water aren’t going to go off. They will stay on no matter what.
«End of lesson»
Eccles:
After doing the work and spending the money to generate a little bit of electric power for SIP purposes, I have come to realize just how wasteful our society has become with electricity. I’m not talking so much about leaving the TV or lights on when you aren’t in the room, but more about how products are designed as if the supply of power is limitless. Do we really need refrigerators with TV screens in the door?
HBB- Nothing like trying to generate power using an exercise bike to teach you how inefficient our modern appliances are, eh?
It is astounding to me that given some of the major energy savings that could be realized by simply adopting a few efficient technologies, like compact fluorescent or LED lighting devices just how much oil and natural gas our country could save. A compact fluorescent lamp consumes about 1/4 the power of a good old fashioned Edison type incandescent lamp. And yet we have no laws incentizing people to choose the efficient lamp over the $.25 light bulb. They also don’t realize that they pay a second time to air condition the wasted energy out of their homes.
The story of your “gas” oven that needs 400 watts of power so that it can cook with gas is a classic example.
It is only when consumers smarten up enough to realize that their electric bill is high not only because of the cost of power, but because of all the power their appliances and toys waste needlessly.
Called an order in yesterday morning with Affordable-Solar in Albuquerque for three GE50’s at $299 each, a BlueSky Solar Boost 2000E 12v 25a MPPT charge controller at $210, and a Morningstar SHS-10amp 12v charge controller at $37 as a backup incase the MPPT failed. Used a credit card to pay for it, talked with salesperson Jean, she took all my info and said will-call was AOK (I live near Albuquerque) so no shipping charge. They had the panels in stock, and the MPPT, not sure about the Morningstar SHS so she said they would NOT charge my credit card till they had the item in hand, or had shipped it to me for eight bucks. At the end of the conversation Jean asked for my nickname, and I told her, and she said, “you took my daughter and I fishing 15 years ago, in that family fishing program”. I said yep, that was me. Serindipity always rules. End of day one.
Day Two: drove to their office in Albuquerque and picked up the GE50s (they come four to a case, I bought three, so they were still in the case, which fit nicely in the back of a Subaru Forester with the back seat down) and picked up the MPPT charge controller and signed off on the invoice. The SSH Morningstar was a no go, not for sale in the US as it is switched on the grounded leg, meant for third world village use, and should not have been on Affordable Solar’s website … so I went with a Sun Saver 10amp-12v at $55, free shipping or I can pick it up tomorrow. Jeans daughter was on summer break from college and was working the phone bank, even she remember the family fishing workshop. The office is just a phone bank with a dog. I listened to six different conversations at once and ALL the converstations were of high caliber, dealing efficiently with shipping issues, panel choices, design options, technical issues, stupid questions and wire size vs distance vs voltage issues. They have no “store”, just a warehouse, a bunch of wellversed tech and sales folk, and a phone bank. Stuff not onhand is shipped from the manufacturer wholesaler.
I have no business relationship with Affordable-Solar. I paid their website prices. I give them high marks based on my “little” order, and the inside look-listen I had at their phone-bank. I called twice earlier, a month back, for info and was given good solid answers. They have a very extensive website which actually tells you what pv-panels they have in-stock.
No batteries, mounting hardware, wire, lightening arresters, fuses, battbox, conduit or output plugs, no battery charger and no inverter, no master panel, just 150 watts of GE panels and a charge controller.
And, no plan, but it is forming. All comments invited, will update as the other components are purchased, the plan is finalized, and assembly begins.
Next, batteries. Either WallMart AGM dual use or Werker AGMs from BatteriesPlus or ???
Pi
Since there is supposed to be a break in the heat this weekend, I am hoping to get some of my PV panels mounted on the roof. I’m going to Lowes on my lunch hour to get wiring and junction boxes. All of this takes a lot of time and work. I’m glad I’m doing it now instead of under a pressure situation.
I tried out my new inverter (this one http://tinyurl.com/g434z) on a 20″ TV/DVD combo. I wanted to make sure the modified sine wave wouldn’t result in too much distortion of the picture.
There was a wavy line that scrolled from top to bottom, but was’t bad and was mainly visible when the set had a blank screen or the picture was still. It was hardly noticeable when there was movement on the screen.
Overall, not bad for $30 and will provide entertainment when the power is down. Now to save up for a pure sine wave unit for the big HD ready projection TV. :)
I can recommend the following company. Thye certainly have been more than fair with me.
Thanks, HBB.
Now I’ll bump this thing for visibility.
on getting a charge controller a nice place to live.
I spent $220 on an MPPT charge controller, more bang for the buck out of your pv panels than a straight PW controller, however, the unit does not come with a box, just the front piece and the attached electronics on the back. Sos I spent another 28 bucks for the box. No big deal, as I understand that my “other” costs will be about 25% above the straight cost of pv panels, charge controller, and batteries. Do not be suprised when you add up the cost of pv panel mounts, cable, battery boxes …. and on and on. Everything I bought is still in its box. Studying grounding issues, pv panel mounting options, and discoonects. OK, disconnects. Would a couple of you longtimers on this wiki tell me - what the heck is a bump?
Bump is when someone replies to a thread to make it have a higher profile. This is a bump.
The Forum shows time stamped replies in order.
Bill Billy Hill, tell us exactly your mounting scheme, not a joke, but what? unistruts?
I am considering Zomeworks stuff, just starting this thought process, pole mount solid or tracker … under consideration, somewhat emotional as I was around when Zomeworks Steve got started, maybe just go to the boxstore and buy off-the-rack. Batteries in the crawl space (agm), not heated but vented, warm in winter and cool in summer, easy access as the space is tall, not sure.
Melanie, about the bump description, is a bump a graphic organizer? a spacer in graphic terms? A graphic layout tool?
Pi Tainer – at 23:21
The current plan is to build a wood frame that will be fastened to a southern-facing dormer roof. Four solar panels (15W each) will be mounted to the frame. Wiring will go down an unused chimmney to the charge controller and battery bank in the basement.
Before mounting I plan to test the power loss through the wiring, if it is too great then it’s on to Plan B, whatever that may be.
Bill- if you tell me the number of panels and the gauge of wire you’ll be using, I should be able to tell you the BEST that your setup will deliver. Individual variations in construction can always make it worse, but the physics of the wires set the upper limit.
Eccles – at 15:51
It looks like 4 of the 15 watt panels from Northern Tools will fit on that section of roof nicely. I plan to use 12AWG wire for an estimated length of 75 feet. Using any heavier guage seems counter-productive since the “goes-inta” and “comes-outa” leads on the charge controller are so small.
OK Bill, Here’s the info.
If we assume that 12 gauge wire has a resistance of about 0.002 ohms per foot, then for a 75 foot run, it will incur a total path resistance of 0.15 ohms for each leg (positive and negative). Thus, the DC circuit will see an inserted resistance of 0.3 ohms. (That assumes well soldered connections throughout, otherwise you could have a great deal higher resistance due to just the connections).
If we asume that you will be running the NorthernTool panels which you just got, they will be running at about 4 Amps and 14–15 volts before the insertion losses of the wiring.
This implies a voltage drop due to the wiring, at full current of about 1.2 volts. this would drop your charging voltage to about 13.8 volts, which is about as low as I would care to see it go.
Power dissipated in the wiring would be about 5 watts, which is fine for that much wire to dissipate, it won’t overheat. Thus you lose about 8–10 percent of your available power to heating the wires.
The short leads on the charge controller are not a concern because they are not the predominant resistance source for this installation.
From what I calculate, you would certainly not want to lengthen the wiring run any longer, and you certainly would not wnat to go to any smaller wiring gauge.
If we do the same calculation using 10 gauge, we come out with a path resistance of about 0.19 ohms, which would then make your voltage drop to be about .75 volts, which would then give you a charging voltage of about 14.4 volts (I would be much happier with that).
Total power dissipated in the wiring drops to about 3 watts.
The one issue to remember here is that these represent just the losses due to the 75 foot run of 12 Ga. wire. Any other losses inserted into the system due to resistance in the connections from panels to junction box and then junction box to wiring, and then wiring to charge controller only make things worse.
If it were me, I’d hack up a few extra pennies for the #10 wire.
And this is based on 4 panels. If you threw the other 3 I know you got into the mix, it would necesssitate looking at even heftier wire.
Sorry. I’m just doing the job you pays me to do.
What if I used 12volt low voltage number 12 wire from the solar to the controller and then #10 from the batteries to the appliances? I have about 110 watts
HillBill, 75 feet is way too many toes. After ready DocEccles numbers, can you go with parallel runs? or move the batteries upstairs? or make the whole thing portable so you can hang it out a window?
I am looking to keep my runs to ten feet, which means panels on the shedstyle roof just above the south wall of the house, or panels (three at 20″x30″) just outside the south wall (as part of the garden patio), and batteries living inside, these are agms, type 31 likely, so they would fit fine behind a couch, in a homebuilt plastic opentop box. I have given up the thought of putting the batteries in the crawl space.
Maximum pv panel connect wire is 8 AWG, minimum is 12 AWG, this from GE’s mounting instructions. Maximum wire size on the charge controller is 10 AWG. The Blue Sky manual gives Max wire length for less than 0.42 volt drop for different wire sizes (ie 20 feet for 10 amps for #10). They say use short pieces of #10 for the connects to batt, panel and controller, and attach the bigazz stuff to the short #10 pieces for the long runs, but looks like #10 will do me fine as my runs are so short.
GE has a mounting reference “GE Energy Document - Approved Mounting Methods”, which is my reading material tonight.
GE has a
Got this afternoon the Morningstar SS-10a-12v SunSaver 10 Charge Controller - about the size of two Odwala bars, or a third the size of a Celestial Seasonings tea box, or two good sized brownies. Fifty five bucks plus $5 shipping. Sealed, OK for outside install if you follow the directions. It has two blinky led lights, one red one green, for operation status. No remote batttemp option. This is a backup - in case the MPPT Blue Sky unit poops out.
The blue ski is heavy for its size (half the size of a kleenax box), and the components look beefy. It has a digital readout of batvolt, pv panel current, and curent output plus a blinky light telling charge status. and batttemp probe is available.
JW @ 19:29 - The issue is the gauge and length of the run carrying current. The basic rules will not bend. Pi Tainer brings up a good point. If you us 2 (or even 3) runs of #12 in parallel, the resistance is cut by 1/2 or by 2/3. That ought to bring #12 back into the running. But with a 75 foot run, you are looking at significant wiring losses on a run of just #12.
Eccles:
Is there some universal law in the science of alternative power that makes anything already purchased and in good supply at my house automatically null and void? Well, there is really no choice about where some of the panels will be mounted, I’ve got one good spot on the roof. Note that I have decided not to put them all up there. I had one of the panels out in the yard this evening taking some readings and I do like the abiliy to have a mobile power source.
I could move the battery bank and the inverters upstais but I really don’t want to do that. My work room is downstairs and so is the wood furnace. I’m always going downstairs but hardly ever go upstairs. I want to be able to check on everything on a regular basis.
Decisions, decisions…
I am not running 75 feet I am running 35 feet and the #12 is low voltage and is multy micro strand wire; will that make the difference
Eccles:
By running paralell strands of #12, I assume you mean I connect white to white and black to black on the #12 wires and then make the normal connections to the panels and the charge controller. Correct?
The reason I used #12 micro strand it is my understanding electrons only move on the outside of a wire; and multy strand will decrease the resistance and thus the heat load! What do you think
HillBill, run the pv panels to the charge controller - batteries in as short a run as possible. Seventy five feet, even thirty five feet is too much, though it can be done. This pv-panel to batt is the Archillies heal of low voltage DC power runs. This is the run where you loose the juice. (this is why long DC runs are made with higher voltage, 48voltsDC being an industry standard for longer runs). I lived with windgins on 60 and 90 foot towers, DC generators with propellers and huge cables coming down the tower to the charge controller and the batteries. We could not change this with the equipment at hand (almost antique DC generators on tall towers). The charge controllers and battery shack was almost at the base of the windgen towers, as short a run as was possible. Once we had the juice in the batteries, the inverter AC to usage runs were 50–250 feet, and all worked fine.
Put the inverter next to batteries for the same reason. DC runs short. AC runs short if can, longer if you must.
Run the AC loads off the inverter with whatever long runs are required. The long run is from the inverter AC output to the load. The long run is AC. The loss is less on the AC side.
this is not advice, this is what I understand to be the physics of the situation.
Pi
JW- Low voltage wiring only refers to the insulation and its ability to withstand higher voltages. It is a wire designed specifically to be used in low voltage applications. it does not have any superior capabilities to convey DC than any other wire.
Multi-strand and micro-strand wire is advantageous in many applications in which flexibility and resistance to metal fatigue with repeated flexure is desirable. For DC applications, there is little to no “skin effect” which would cause current to preferentially flow along the surface layers of the wire. This is primarily an AC effect, and can be rather pronounced at RF frequencies.
In point of fact, at DC, because of the lack of skin effect, and because there is now some “air space” between the strands, the resistance per foot of stranded wire is actually a few percent higher than solid wire of the same gauge.
HBB- By parallel, I mean that you have two runs of wires. The whites are connected at each end, and the blacks are connected at each end, such that from point A to point B you now have two conductors carrying the current in parallel. If you are at all unsure, get a hold of me and I’ll make sure you get it right. We don’t need Zip-Crack-Sparkle going on unnecessarily.
Oh, and there is indeed a rule that says that you will never be able to use the stuff you have on hand. I think it was written by the same guy who wrote the rule that says a dropped hammer will land on your solar panel, and not on the toolbox.
This may have been covered in other gennie threads, but just in case:
My neighbors learned a vital lesson when our power went out this week during a heat wave. They have a gigantor standby generator (yes, I’m green with envy, but they are loaded and we’re not). The idoit installers put it too close to the ac unit. So when the ac unit ran, it sucked carbon monoxide fumes into the air handler which then entered the house. Luckily they had CM detectors otherwise we’d be going to four funerals today (they have two small kids and she’s pg with #3).
It’s a good idea to have CM detectors anyway, especially those of us in cold climes that are shut up all winter in our houses. But if you are going to have any kind of generator (other than solar) PLEASE get some CM detectors!
Eccles:
I understand about the wiring, it had been a long day yesterday and what neurons I do have weren’t firing very fast.
If you haven’t already seen it, check out today’s Dilbert catoon. I thought of you Eccles when I read it.
LauraB- That’s why I have a CM detector on each floor, even though I live in an all electric house. It was a couple of years ago that during one winter time outage I tried putting the genny in a new spot. Even though there was nothing open, the DW smelled the engine exhaust. It don’t go there no more.
HBB-
For many years, wherever I worked, the folks were sure that the guy that wrote the Dilbert strip must work at Our Place. He had so many strips that were just like what we were living through that all office doors were festooned with Dilbert strips. Usually they would be real Knee-Slappers if they weren’t so tragically and depressingly true.
(And for most of my career, most of the guys I worked with bore a striking resemblance to Dilbert and his co-workers)
Eccles:
Unfortunately, in higher education, we have a shortage of Dilberts and too many of the CEO and HR executives.
Please forgive if this has already been addressed. How important is the house orientation to being able to use solar effectively? Most of my roof faces either east or west, though there’s a little bit that faces south or north.
Mari- In order for a solar panel to work effectively, it needs to be “flat-on” to the incoming beams of light. Thus, an East or West facing piece of roof will give power for only a portion of the day. The North facing roof will really never get a good aspect to the sun. The South facing piece of roof is your best candidate. Or you can ground mount the panels if you have a spot that is unshaded for the majority of the day.
I have a Kipor KGE2000 1900W Sinewave Portable Generator converted from gasoline to propane. This genset is very similar to the Honda 2000W and has smart throttle that idles on very little fuel. I need to estimate how much propane to store. If it’s a lot, I may have to get a large tank, otherwise just a few small 20 lbs.
Does anyone know how to estimate fuel usage comparison between gasoline and propane - how many lbs. of propane equivalent to how many gallons or liters of gasoline.
The reason I converted the genset was for relatively safer fuel storage and also I understand gasoline genset ‘gums up’ if you don’t use it regularly.
Anon-YYZ
As a VERY rough estimate, you might consider that about 5 pounds of propane would contain the same amount of energy as 1 gallon of gasoline.
Therefore, as a very rough method of calculating things, a 20 lb tank of propane would be about equivalent to about 4 gallons of gasoline.
Now then, since the egine itself will run at different efficiencies on the two fuels, this is only a rough method of beginning your planning. You might try loading the generator down to about half load and see how long it takes to empty a full 20 lb tank. That could then be compared directly with the manufactirers spec sheets, which usually represent fuel usage at half load.
If anyone has better numbers or a better suggestion, have at it.
Eccles – at 14:45
Thanks, that’s good enough to think about one large tank vs. several small.
The spec’s said Gasoline Fuel Consumption 420 g/KWh, so 2100 lbs propane/KWh or 100 small cylinders to get 1KW for 1 hour (if ‘g’ means gallons). That does not make sense.
The spec also said 3.7L gas tank (about 1 gallon) that can run continously for 4 hours. Even at half load, that’s 4KWh. Now I am really confused. I also read somewhere that the 4 hours is full load, and idle would be 16 hours. This genset is supposed to be very energy efficient, similar to the Honda, Yamaha digital series.
Here’s the spec’s:
As a Chemist, I read the small “g” as grams, which would mean a little less than a pound (454 grams) per KWh.
Mari – at 12:44
I installed small panels (15W) on south facing window frames, inside the house. It’s not elegant, but I don’t have to climb up the roof, and I can use it to charge batteries.
If you don’t have south facing roof, and your needs are modest. It might work for you.
Anon-YYZ-
Avanarts is saying what I think. They are talking about grams of fuel. In this case, 452 grams is 1 pound (agreeing with Avanarts), thus, what they are saying is that you can get 1 KWh per pound of fuel, or about 6 KWh per gallon.
That agrees favorably with the rating on my Honda industrial, which will deliver about 4–5 KWh per gallon of fuel.
SInce you get about 75% of the energy per pound of propane compared to gasoling, that would mean about 3/4 KWh per pound of propane, or about 15KWh out of each 20 lb tank. In this case, your 2100 pounds of propane would provide you with about 1600 KWh.
Very different results from your first calculations. But a ton of propane is ALOT of propane.
AVanarts – at 15:11
Eccles – at 19:29
Thank you.
I don’t have 2100 lbs. of propane. I was sounding hopeless :-(
The calculations match then. 3.7L of gasoline to run 4 hours x 1.6 KVA is about 6KWh.
I am thinking like 1 hour a day, so one 20 lb tank will be good for 2 weeks. If I need to use it for more than a month, other problems will be bigger than this.
This little machine has ‘smart throttle’, it throttles based on load :-). It is also relatively quiet. I will use it at no more than half load to reduce noise. It is supposed to give out pure sine wave, but I haven’t tested it on electronics yet.
The quietest genset demoed to me is the Yamaha digital/portables - but it’s a little too pricey for me.
I have four of the 15W panels mounted on the southern-facing dormer roof. The frame I made will accomodate two more panels, however, 3 of the 7 panels I bought were damaged and must be returned. Nothing is connected yet, I’m going to Lowes Depot tomorrow to buy wire. I did some measuring, and I can cut the run of wire down to 60 feet. I’m going to get 8 guage since I plan to eventually have 6 panels on the roof.
Bill- What was the damage you encountered? The panels I got appeared OK. What should I be looking for?
It looked to me like some heavy object fell on the middle of three of the boxes. One panel was shattered on the front side (looked like a baseball through a windowpane except no hole). The other two looked fine on the front, but were cracked on the back side. One just cracked a little, the other one pretty smashed. I was disappointed when I saw the first one, but really unhappy when I discovered the other two. Now I will have another session of clinging to the dormer roof while I mount panels.
Sounds like mistreatment along the way of your shipment. I was really worried about getting them in good shape, but I didn’t have anything like that. Did the outer shipping boxes show signes of this “trauma”, did the product box show it, did the styrofoam packing show it? This might give you a clue as to where it happened.
Eccles:
Having worked in a warehouse in my younger years, I know all about checking for “apparent” shipping damage. I saw no such signs on the outer cartons, nor on the inner product boxes. The styrofoam packing was also in good shape. I noticed the one panel fractured on the front side obviously when I was testing each panel to make sure it functioned properly. Since I needed get them up on the roof safely, I wwas testing them lying on one half of the foam packing to make it easier to re-pack them. I didn’t notice the other two damaged panels until I was ready to mount them. My guess is that a heavy box fell off the top rack in the UPS truck and landed right in the middle of my stacked boxes, fracturing the top three panels in the stack.
After a day of going from the roof to the basement and back again more times than I could count, I finally have the PV panels connected. Because I plan to eventually use 6 panels, (90W total), I used 8 guage wire. By cutting every possible corner, I managed to shorten the run to 55 feet. My handy-dandy voltage guage from Northern Tools showed 14.5W on the battery side of the charge controller. I’m glad all of the major work is done, when I get the other two panels replaced I will just need to mount them and connect the quick disconnects.
Bill- You mean 14.5V?
And is that under full load while charging?
Hope I’m putting this story in the right place, if not I apologize. This article deals with the ramifications of countries increasing their dependence on biodiesel rather than petroleum as an energy source. Seems everything is inter-connected…
BRITAIN faces soaring food prices, a shortage of staple foods and declining public health if the Government pushes ahead with plans to promote the use of biofuels, the UK’s biggest food producer has given warning.
Huge efforts are being made to promote biodiesel amid concern over the rising cost of oil and reliance on the Middle East for supplies. The European Commission wants to increase the proportion of biofuel used in road transport from current levels of 0.8 per cent to 5.75 per cent by 2010.
However, Alan Jope, Unilever vice-president, fears that the rush to convert food crops into transport fuel will have unintended consequences. He said: “The scale is dramatic. To meet current EU quotas would require between 50 and 80 per cent of rapeseed production. Ultimately, there could be supply shortages.”
Government grants and subsidies for biofuels are also having unintended environmental consequences in the Amazon and South-East Asia, where rain forests are being burnt to clear land for biofuel crops, such as palm oil, and sugar cane, used to produce ethanol. Figures from the OECD show that Europe would need to convert more than 70 per cent of arable land in order to raise the proportion of biofuel used in road transport to 10 per cent.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C5-2302045%2C00.html
Eccles – at 06:11
Can you tell I was out in the sun too long yesterday? Yes, that is 14.5V. I did not have the charge controller hooked to the battery at that point. I was going down the checklist on the instruction sheet provided with the controller. I didn’t take any readings after that because I was running short on time.
I must say that it is nice to have the batteries being charged by solar rather than with a trickle charger plugged into the grid.
Bump
Eccles or other large brained human,
I have an electric golf cart. 6 - eight volt batteries (Club Car) . . . How many of those 15 watt solar panels would it take to keep it powered up??? How many controllers???
My thought is to get an inverter and run it off the cart. Thoughts comments, ridicule welcome. . .
P.S. Phoenix area 7 to 8 hrs of sun a day
SCW AZ-
First, are there six batteries and are they 8 volts?
The serious and important question is what is the capacity of each battery in ampere hours.
It would also be usefull to me to find out how the batteries are connected, i.e. all in series, all in parallel, or some series-parallel arrangement.
Once we know these things, we ought to be able to give you your answer (although I’ll wager you’re not going to like what we’re going to tell you).
The night is dark and I am near my bedtime. Tommorow I seek the information you request. The bad news you bear will wait then too. . . DRAT!!!
My guess is that SCW AZ is looking at eight 6V batteries wired in series to drive a 48V motor. I’ve been tempted to bring my wife’s Club Car out of storage and spring for new batteries for reserve power, too. I couldn’t spring for an acre of solar panels to recharge batteries on a daily basis (matching goes-into with goes outta), but I was considering the possibility of using my excess generator capacity to charge the cart, then rewiring to a parallel-series arrangement to 12V to power an inverter when the genset isn’t running.
That sounds a bit more practical than adding batteries to my collection that have no purpose other than emergency power.
Tall in MS – at 01:12 WROTE: My guess is that SCW AZ is looking at . . .
SCW AZ: The night was not that old that you had to chase me to the garage (with flashlight in hand) to make sure I remembered how many batteries there are. . .
Six I tell, you SIX!!! Wired + to - to + to - to + , etc (Whether that is series or parallel, I am not knowing)
My thoughts also on using golf cart for back-up to genset (Honda 2000i)
The serious and important question is what is the capacity of each battery in ampere hours WILL wait tell after sleep as it was not readly available
Here’s a sobering article on the state of the US power grid…
Southern California and the urban centers from Northern Virginia to New York face the most critical power grid problems, but such remote areas as Montana and the Dakotas may need new transmission lines in the near future, an Energy Department report warns.
Just to put the “goes-inta” vs “comes outa” ratio in perspective, here is where I am at with my solar panels, battery bank and inverters. I currently have four 15 watt solar panels on the roof feeding into a bank of three 115Ah deep-cycle marine batteries. Rather than just wasting this energy while I wait for a pandemic, I decided to find something in the house that I could power off the grid. After rejecting many options, I settled on our fish tanks. We run the air pump all the time and it consumes 5 watts. The lights add another 60 watts and we have them on for an hour each morning when we feed the fish. There are no heaters. As long as I don’t have a string of cloudy days, I should be able to power the pump and lights from the energy collected by the panels. I do plan on addidng two more panels once the replacements for the ones damaged in transit are received. That should allow me to add a 4 watt nightlight or two. Don’t even ask me what all of this has cost.
HillBill, I had to take a couple of days off my pv panel adventure cause my best friend asked, “dear, can you move the clothes drier over there?”. A hundred dollars later the drier is moved, my trips to the electrical part of the hardware store are back down to zero, and I can get back to mounting the pv panels. The incidental costs of putting in a PV system are NOT incidental. Charge controller, batteries, pv panels … add it up and we still do not have a good total on the cost of the job. While I could, if the shtfan, hook everything up right now and have a miniature power plant, to do it right, I am looking at maybe five hundred dollars more just in cable, conduit, control board with disconnects, fuses, pv-panel mount rails and all the bits and pieces to make this a solid, though tiny, system. I am putting the costs out there cause this is powerful information. So far, three 50watt panels at $299, charge controller at $248 (backup charge controller $60). No batteries yet (likely three 12volt deepcycle 110ah AGMs at maybe $120 each). Your fish are well aware of the time and MONEY you have put into their life support system. We should always include cost in these discussions, both time and MONEY. The fellow asking about his golf cart will be amazed. For seven thousand dollars, you can get a system which will allow him to drive to the golf course and rent a cart, play a round of golf, return the cart, and then drive his own cart back home. Should be able to do this at least three times a month on a seven grand system. Somebody, maybe Doc Eccles will do the numbers, I am just wild guessing, but the truth remains, you can pay a bunch of bucks for a tiny PV output. Pi
Conserve, conserve. Learn to live well with less energy. LED lights make wonderful nitelites for fraction of an amp. Yes solar is expensive, it is all I have. BUT I will never have an outage produced by storms or illness and no electric bill.It does take a long term committment to move to a different lifestyle. Kelly
Pi Tainer – at 20:31 WROTE: The fellow asking about his golf cart will be amazed. For seven thousand dollars, you can get a system which will allow him to drive to the golf course and rent a cart, play a round of golf, return the cart, and then drive his own cart back home. Should be able to do this at least three times a month on a seven grand system.
SCW REPLIES: I don’t even golf. Seriously. The cart will never see a golf course. We use it as a second car. We live in a non-gated retirement community. Plates and insurance required. We are saving energy and helping the environment by making local trips in an electric vehicle.
Now $100 to move a dryer. . .Hmm . . . or closeline and closepins $12
Hey SCW AZ, good to hear your post. We had a golf cart at our place a bizilian years ago to move gear around our complex, took it up to the local truck stop on a lark, got there, had some coffee with the crew (Woodies truck stop, no longer there, on Route 66 - I:40 just east of Albuquerque). It got us there, maybe two miles, but not all the way back. Your post brought back memories. Your comment on hooking up to the batteries for a 12v punch for an inverter … there are inverters, good ones, that you can hook up to the string, regardless of the voltage, that will give you a very nice 120v AC backup, at 36 or 48 volts DC or whatever. You do not have to split up the battery bank to find 12v. Do a Google on inverters … there are good choices. Using the grid to keep the cart charged is a fine way to have an emergency backup (using an inverter). We got the clothes line and the clothespins, but yah, 2@#6 w/ground, water tight flex, connectors, box and extras, plus gas for the trips to the hardware store, a hundred bucks.
Pi Tainer – at 20:31 - you can pay a bunch of bucks for a tiny PV output.
Agreed, but the fun of installing the system needs to be considered. I think my favorite part was clinging to a steep, scorchingly hot roof while I mounted the panels with angry wasps buzzing around my head. Or maybe it was the half dozen trips from the roof to the basement of the house and back because the wiring kept getting snagged in the unused chimmney I was threading it through.
Bill- I thought another favorite of yours was the smell of burning phenolic that came from the new inverter instead of pure sine wave AC.
Eccles – at 08:49
Sarcastically speaking. yes that was a big favorite. I can’t remember being that depressed in a lomg time. I’m still working up the nerve to hook up the replacement.
following Kim’s article from yesterday: it’s not only weaknsses in the grid system, but on a more localized level as well. Because of so many new, big houses and/or people renovating/up-sizing current ones with big huge appliances,etc. local transformers often can’t handle the loads because they haven’t been upgraded to meet increased loads. This happened to us recently and it took 2.5 days to get it fixed because crews were rout fixing bigger problems. Our electrician said he’s seen it happening all over. I had him over to look at what we need for a genny, and he said he’s installing a standy-by genny at his house as well. He’s sick of lossing power and he lives in a town with fewer problems than ours does. Not reassuring! he also said that some of his customers have been using their standby generators instead of regular electricity because sometimes it’s cheaper to run off propane than pay the electric bill (our rates recently went up 23%!).
Look on the bright side. Would you rather be that depressed during normal times, or in TSHTF times when you open the well preserved box and hook up the old but unused equipment for the very first time.
In my management training there was a formal name for that kind of event. It was called an OSM!, standing for an Oh Shucks! Moment (or something along those lines).
Eccles:
OSM - It is a truly novel mix of emotions and body chemistry reactions for sure. If I was sticking some leftover Heathkit parts together just for the hell of it and released that much smoke I would have laughed and said “Damn! Did you see that?” However, after using up several months of disposable income for such a critical piece of equipment, my reaction was less pleasureable. As you say though, better now than after the factory doors have been sealed because of the pandemic.
I saw this product (I have no financial connection to the company) and I thought this would be the appropriate thread to post it. A solar powered bug out bag.
Embedded in the outside of the bags are three lightweight, tough, waterproof solar panels which generate up to 4 watts of power. This means quicker charge times!
Included with each bag is a Li Ion battery pack which stores any surplus power generated, so it is available when you need it – not just when the sun is up.
I’ve been lurking for a while, and haven’t posted because I’m such a novice at all this that I haven’t had anything to say that y’all didn’t already know. ;-) I still don’t, but I have a question for the electrical gurus out there. (I’m a charter member of the “Electricity is Magic” school of thought.) I’d appreciate your opinions on two small plug-and-play solar systems at Sundance Solar that are the same except for the size of the panel. They both have:
The two panel choices are a 24-watt for $345, and a 20-watt for $269. Are the extra 4 watts worth the extra $76?
I know I’m supposed to add up my energy requirements first, but I don’t have any real *requirements* — I just thought this might give me some options. One of the options I’m hoping might work is using it to power a portable ice maker like this one (Power consumption 300 W, Power 120V / 60Hz, Rated current 2.6 A).
Put these two little machines together with a 5-day cooler, and it’d be almost as good as a real refrigerator for around $500. If it works. Is there a snowball’s chance?
I’m a total electrophobe, so it won’t hurt my feelings if this is the dumbest idea you’ve ever heard. ;-)
Harbor frieght had a 45 watt for $200 Don’t know how good it is, been debating myself on if I should buy or not
dbg- First off, I don’t think the Xantrex package you outlined has enough Juju to drive the icemaker. If I assume it is running a mechanical compressor which runs at 300 watts, then two things will arise to disappoint you.
First, the inverter will be unable to get the compressor motor started because it won’t be able to deliver the startup surge current.
Second, with a 20 AH battery, I suspect you would get as much as 10–12 minutes before the battery was drained completely.
So the question of which panel to use is secondary to whether what you need is to make ice. If so, this package is insufficient to meet that need. there are larger Xantrex units with a 60 Ah battery and a 1 KW inverter which stand a much better chance of doing what you want.
Finally 80 bucks to kick the output up another 4 watts sounds a bit pricey to me. In fact, the cost of $13 to $15 per watt that you describe here sound a bit too pricey to me. Hillbilly Bill and I have both just gotten some 15 watt panels on sale for about $4-$5 per watt.
So that’s my first response to your questions.
Anyone else with a different opionion?
What do you think of this one? http://tinyurl.com/qtcma
noodles - The link you put up leads to a blank page. I assume you are refering to This Page at the end of my link?
First off, I have never been a big fan of Harborfreight just because of the low-priced Chinese knock-off thing. But it is a set of 3 panels that are probably very similar to the ones the NorthernTool just had on sale that a few of us bought.
For a 45 watt set, that isn’t a bad deal. Just realize that 45 watts of panl isn’t going to get you a whole lot of power, and you still are going to need a battery or two to contain the juju that it puts out, plus an inverter if you are going to want AC from it.
Eccles – at 00:04
Thank you, that is the page I was looking at thanks! I know it won’t run a lot, just looking for a little energy relief not to power much, maybe run my laptop for a short time and a lamp if needed. I have an inverter been waiting on the batteries to contain the juju.
NorthernTool has 33 watt panels on sale
This is not a recommendation to buy this or any other panel, but here is a LINK to the page for a sale on a 33W panel at NorthernTool.
I have not used this panel, but Hillbilly Bill and I have both bought their 15 watt panels, and they’re pretty OK for the price.
Thanks, I suspected it was too easy to really work. I can recite the beginning of the prologue to The Canterbury Tales in Middle English (memorized 36 years ago in high school), I can design a killer database, I can build a Murphy bed out of plywood, piano hinges, and a hoist — but I don’t seem to have any brain receptors for electricity, so I’m willing to pay some extra money to avoid having to connect things myself and burn down my house. I’m prepared to live without ice, so looking at just the two systems, am I correct in believing that the only difference is that it would take longer to recharge the battery with the 20 watt panel? Does anyone know of any other plug-and-play systems for comparison? Thanks again for this and all the other great information.
dbg – at 09:59
While I am not completely electronically impaired, I had zero experience with solar panels, deep-cycle batteries and inverters when I started reading the wiki. Before you buy a ready made package, it might be a good idea to take some measurements of your projected energy use and look at some individual components. Putting it all together is not as hard as it sounds. I haven’t had to use a fire extinguisher so far! There is good advice here from people with lots of knowledge and experience. I’ve got some good links concerning care and treatment of batteries that helped me a lot. Let me know if you want to look at them.
Hillbilly Bill – at 13:09
The sad thing is that I’ve read all six parts of this thread — twice — and I get small glimmers of understanding, but then it disappears. If I knew more about electricity, I might say my brain’s short-circuited. I’ll probably just stick with wind-up and battery-operated gizmos and the little solar battery charger (AA and 9-volt) I got at Harbor Freight for $12. Oh, I also have some of the solar yard lights to act as battery chargers that someone here talked about. Even I can’t mess those up! (Um, I can’t mess those up, can I?)
dbg- Before you give up completely, now that you’ve tried to wade through all that came before, just bring whatever questions you have right to this thread and I or one of my colleagues here will be happy to help talk you through whatever it is you are trying to accomplish. That’s kind of what I am doing these days. And I won’t even charge you nothing for it.
I’m baking a loaf of bread right now using battery power. I also hope to use the battery bank to run a TV for a few hours today. When the sun is off the panels, I’ll hook up my battery charger and see where I’m at as far as “goes inta” and “comes outa”.
simple hot water shower during sunshine.. a black bucket, some tinfoil under and behind it, a clear plastic plate on top of bucket. Place in sun for 2 hours. You get aprox 50–70´c hot water. To shower get small inekspensive 12v pump camping shower, or pour the water in a bucket with holes or a improvised hose over your head.
one question.. the gas the trad. lead batteries disperce during charging, is it hydrogen? if so a cellar would be ok for batterybank since hydrogen is lighter than air and will ventilate thru the vents?
urdar-Norge – at 08:24
I have my batteries in a workroom in my basement. Whenever I charge the batteries, I use a small box fan to disipate the gasses. The danger is a collection of hydrogen and oxygen in the vicinity of the batteries. This highly combustible mixture can be ignited by a spark when connecting or disconnecting a charger or other equipment.
so a ventilation pipe running fom a box where the batteries are stored pointing upvards and out, would be sufficent. As long as the basement it self is well ventilated. This is in opposite with propanegas, its heavyer than air and shold not be stored in a basement.. I guess if its a large bank a ventilator should be used, you can get small ones that is run on solar as one unit, typical used in boats an carawans
My PV solar is only one tractor battery, its on the porch now, but i used to have it in the sleeping room, with window little opened all the time.. no problems
Urdar - The main thing to try to do is to have a little air flow past the battery so that the H and O do not accumulate. I am not sure whether just a vertical vent tube will be sufficient. It probably won’t require much motion, but you should have at least a little.
OK, another dumb question. I’ve seen little flexible solar panels for less than $50 that are supposed to be able to charge a 12V battery. If I wanted to use one of those to charge a laptop battery, does that mean the laptop battery would have to be 12V or less, or does it mean that a higher voltage laptop battery wouldn’t charge all the way?
Mari- The question of a laptop battery is a bit more complicated than what you ask. (Isn’t it always with Ol’ Prof Eccles around?)
The batteries used in modern laptops use a batery technology known as Lithium-Ion. This is an incredibly powerful battery technology which comes with one annoying characteristic…if it isn’t charged exactly right it tends to either break internally and never work again, or else it explodes and starts a fire. There are a number of after market cell phone batteries out there that do that with great regularity, sometimes when they are just sitting there. Sometimes when they are clipped to the owner’s clothing.
So, the only safe and proper way to recharge a Lithium-ion battery os to use the charging system that is intended to be used with it. In this case, either by plugging the laptop into 110V AC power (wall plug) or else by plugging it into the 12V power supply meant for use in cars and planes.
Thus, the little 12V panels you see are not sufficient to charge a laptop without aditional pieces. Also, many of the little panels, cute as they are, are too wimpy to charge something as hungry as a laptop battery.
Sorry to be a Gloomy Gus, but I’d rather keep you safe, and keep you from spending your prep dollars needlessly.
Eccles - Good to know. Thanks.
some friends of mine went to “expedition” on a palm island. they had the flexible solar panel made like a sleeping bag underlayer size, they had truoble charging a laptop and a satelite phone, but made it in the end by doing some hokupokus.. as a key note would be that the panel should be aprox this size, and that the charger do the right job.. www.treehugger.com is a nice blog for small products like this.. problem with computer are they uses I think 48 volt, not 12 or 24… As a simple apouch could be to find a charger that is ment to be used in a cars sigaret plug. That way you are sure to get enough if your panel is adekvat to charge a car battery… or a lead battery 12volt… Using the battery as a buffer storing enough to charge a laptop after a longer period.
a litle off topic maybe.. Gasoline prices goes up where the birds fly and Ethanol is finaly becomming a popular alternative.. In a long term hobby reasearch I would like to teoreticaly experiment with using solar to destill ethanol.. dont mind the legal stuff.. There is a destiller used by people living in close to neigbors that is safer and more odour free than the trad moonshine aparatus.. Its called the “the amazing still” and is based on plastic barrels and low temp destilation. The low temp part makes it interesting to try to create a appartus that runs on solar heath.. After all using expensive energy to create energy is stupid, so this could be a good idea. Anyone with solar knowledge interested please mail me at urdar#fluwiki.no for further exhange of ideas.. My ambition is to create a apparatus sufficient enough to feed a scooter, maybe using Methanol instead (using wood as raw material..)
It could be discused here as well, but its not a relaiable techinc, and will probably just add to the information overflow regarding panflu..
Urdar- I know you know this, but for others, you can’t just dump ethanol or methanol into a moter designed for gasoline. There are after market conversion kits, and more coming soon. But just dumping E85 or pure ethanol or methanol into a vehicle not designed for it will get rather expensive.
After the bread was done, I disconnected the inverter and used my battery charger to check the level of the battery bank. It was at 75%. I reconnected the PV panel feeds, and I will let the bank charge up and check it when the sun is no longer hitting the panels.
Speaking of Charging and Charge Controllers - A Cautionary Tale
Just wanted to let folks know about a hidden dangerous situation that I encountered while checking out the Nice little charge controller I got from NorthernTool along with my stack of solar panels.
To test out the charge controller, I hooked it to one of my SLA batteries (12AH) and to a bench power supply, and started turning up the juice. Since the battery I was hooked to was mostly (~75% charged) the thing started charging, and then went into an oscillatory charging mode, which the data sheet tells you is fine. Then I hooked a “New” battery right out of the package.
This battery is industrial surplus, never used but pulled from assembled equipment. It showed about 12.25 volts open circuit out of the package, so lets call this about half charge. When I hooled to the charge controller, the charge current tried to sail right past the 3 amps I had the limiter set to. The battery is printed “Do Not Exceed 3 Amps Charging Current”
If I were using about 45 watts of panels, tings would be fine. If I had this thing hooked to the 105 watts of panels available, I would have done serious damage to the battery, and possibly the house and myself.
This is not a problem, per se, but rather illustrates the need to be aware of just what your equipment is going to do under whatever circumstances you hand it. The behavior and charge tolerance of a flooded lead-acid battery will be different from an SLA.
So, once I set the power supply up to a somewhat lower input voltage so that charge current did not exceed the 3 amps, everything seems to be going fine.
So be aware of what you are hooking up, and what the other pieces of equipment will be thinking about it. This shouldn’t be a problem for large (100 AH type) batteries. But if you are charging one of the Xantrex units with a 17, 20 or even 60 AH battery from a large enough array, you may need to just be aware.
How is the burocratic prosess of letting pepole hock their solarpanels to the grid going in the US? Read some thing about it be a problem because the line workers was at risk. In a fare future (when I have much more money, I would invest in a large system for my cottage, since I am not there all the time I would like to sell the el.. In that way it would pay of the cost of going from 12vDC to 230v Ac..
Anyway, dont know if this lamps are easy to get in the US, but many german shops now sells LED lamps for 230V.. (and 12v). Five 12 led lamps and a car battery will give you emergency light that is quite good for months on a fully charged battery from your car..
Ethanol for engines, dont know how to … yet. But a mixture of gasolin and ethanol dont require a large modification of the engine.. (all cars in brasil runs on sugarcane :D
After a full day of sun, my battey bank was back up to 95%. I didn’t use any other power from it. I have it on the battery charger now to get it back up to full.
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Bump!
Long thread, continued here
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