From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Ask Questions of the Moderators Here VIII

21 August 2006

Bronco Bill – at 15:49

Yeppers! Number 8 in a continuing saga…er, series.
Continued from here


Last few relevant posts:

Melanie – at 00:42
Yes, we’re a non-profit now. You can send a check to Box 195, 1096 W. Broad Street, Falls Church, Virginia.

Melanie – at 04:58
There are known legal problems with PayPal. For the time being, make the check out to Flu Wiki.

MaMa – at 10:01
A thought on the donations, for those of us from countries other than the US- would it be best to send a money order in US funds instead of a check?

Dennis in Colorado – at 10:28
Jefiner – at 08:50 Zip code?

Per USPS Web site, 1096 W. Broad Street, Falls Church, VA has a ZIP Code of 22046 - 4609.

FrenchieGirl – at 14:11
Melanie – at 04:58 - Maybe it’s possible to arrange to send you a cheque in dollars, but to the order of whom - FluWiki? Otherwise, can your bank take cheques in Euros or Pound Sterling or Swiss Francs? Without charging you a huge commission?

Bronco Bill – at 16:31

For those who question whether this is “our” Melanie, I received verification this morning via email…she’s the original! The one and only…she’s the tops!

Sorry. BB got carried away. And should be…

KimTat 19:00

I didn’t want to take up space else where. Remember the article about

Pandemic flu not likely this year

Despite the fears surrounding the bird flu, a flu pandemic is not likely this year, but preparations should be made nonetheless, Dr. John Naponick, regional administrator for the Office of Public Health, said Thursday.

[snip]

‘’‘The present bird flu is not likely to reach epidemic proportions, Naponick said, because it has been around for about 10 years, giving people a chance to build immunity.’‘’

[snip]

There are ways to deal with a pandemic outbreak, he said, including staying at home and running away. If there is a pandemic outbreak, he said, there are ways to meet it and that he is holding meetings with officials to discuss that.

Anyway..I wrote him and he replied back.

Thank you very much for your email. I really appreciate your interest and knowledge and for caring enough to write me. You are 100% correct in your analysis of the “quote” from the article. What I said during the presentation was: We have to understand the difference between “seasonal flu”, “bird flu” and “pandemic flu”. We had 3 pandemic flu outbreaks last century; therefore, expect 3 this century. There are 2 schools of thought about this current bird flu becoming a pandemic flu. One group of scientists think that because the bird flu has been around for 10 years it will change into a pandemic flu sooner or later. Another group thinks if this bird flu hasn’t changed to pandemic flu after 10 years, it is unlikely to do so. Since I cannot predict the future, I gave both schools of thought. I recommended we prepare for the bird flu as well as for other situations such as hurricanes and ice storms. I passed out checklists for pandemic flu preparedness from the CDC pandemicflu.gov website as well as our OPH Family Preparedness Guides. There were some questions and answers about immunity to seasonal flu. I believe I was misquoted in the newspaper article.

I have not read the book you mentioned, but plan to do so immediately.

And he offered to meet with me, but I live to far away.

Swann – at 19:07

Hi KimT! Way to go! You make activism look good!

DemFromCTat 21:52

wonderful work.

KimTat 23:18

I wrote back to thank him and also asked him if he would be willing to speak with someone who is more informed then I. If he responds back which one of the mods would like to speak with him if any?

22 August 2006

Monotreme – at 00:07

The main forum page is loading very slowly for me, 30 seconds - to a minute. Traffic seems to be up. Nothing in the MSM that would cause this, that I can see. Is the slow down due to traffic? If so, any idea why that should be up?

Jefiner – at 00:14

Monotreme – at 00:07

I don’t want to sound like a whiner, but it has been painfully slow on the wiki for the last four or five days. Sometimes it takes up to five minutes to load a page. I am not sure if this is a wiki or a Qwest problem, but other sites are loading at their usual broadband speed.

Monotreme – at 00:16

Jefiner,

The problem only applies to the forum, not the Wiki proper (which is on another server). My feeling is that it’s due to increased traffic, but I defer to pogge for an explanation.

Melanie – at 00:20

Treme,

We have too many open threads and that slows things down, too.

Jefiner – at 00:22

Yo, BB, time to tie up those loose threads and make a bird net out of ‘em! ;-D

Monotreme – at 00:30

Melanie,

I started to close a couple, then saw that BB is on the case. I’ll stay out of his way. His aim is sure.

Ange D – at 00:55

Monotreme – at 00:07 You said: “The main forum page is loading very slowly for me, 30 seconds - to a minute. Traffic seems to be up. Nothing in the MSM that would cause this, that I can see. Is the slow down due to traffic? If so, any idea why that should be up?”

CNN had a scrolled news item at the bottom of its broadcast reporting the H5N1 infections in . .. .Indonesia? and referred to possible clusters. I can’t remember it exactly, but it scrolled several times today and I think yesterday. I caught it out of the corner of my eye while I was working, I didn’t pay exact attention. I figured if it was true news, I would get the accurate version on fluwikie.

Melanie – at 00:58

TV doesn’t drive Flu Wiki traffic very much. Print news does.

Ange D – at 01:08

((Melanie)) it WAS printed at the bottom of the tv screen. Big, bold letters! lol!;-)

Melanie – at 01:18

I think Americans are ADD when it comes to watching the news on TV. It is sort of background noise.

Blue Ridge Mountain Mom – at 01:25

The Indonesian Cluster was also at the bottom ticker on Fox News on Friday night, but no reporter doing a story on it.

Perhaps the folks who read the bottom ticker have searched for BirdFlu on the internet for additional reading info…

Bronco Bill – at 01:30

It is sort of background noise

Ain’t that the truth! Mindless banter between talking heads…

Bronco Bill – at 01:34

‘kay. I’ve made a big enough mess of the threads for one night. I think I need to hit the hay….g’night all.

pogge – at 07:55

Is the slow down due to traffic?

No, the total number of threads. It would show on the topic listing in particular. We’re working on it.

moeb – at 08:45

9 seconds to refresh and less than 3 to access this thread

spam alert – at 15:37
 Not here, but in the closed / cytokine storm thread.
KimTat 18:34

Dr. John Naponick said that he would like to speak with someone with lots of knowledge. I’m pre-occupied, bad news from my dr. Not to mention a whole lot of you are smarter then me, I just right good letters.

So anyone?

KimTat 23:51

I really think this is an opportunity to bring someone else on board and to help educate TPTB. I was just told by my dr that I may have cancer. Not gonna spend much time here for awhile and I would like to pass this on before I leave.

So here is the letter I wrote tonight and I hope if he visits that you all treat him with respect.

Dear Sir, I believe your interview was originally found on www.newsnow.com

There is a group of people on the fluwikie site and we share information back and forth around the world. A lot of professionals as well as lay people like myself visit the site.

We have translators from different countries that participate and translate the news through-out the world. Scientists, Doctors, Vets, Nurses, Risk Managers, Lawyers, Writers, bricklayers…all participate anonymously—and if you spend enough time there you begin to know who they are.

Occasionally we get over excited and paranoid but we toss out ideas, plans, thoughts, rumors, possible scenarios…we know more about cytokine storms, then a person would ever want to know.

Science is explained and “dumbed” down for those of us without a biology background.

Here are a few examples of subjects that are explored.

Will quarantines/social distancing reduce or slow down a pandemic, save lives or make no difference at all?

How much water, propane…should a person have on hand for a family of 4, 8…How to cook food using only dehydrated and canned supplies?

What’s happening in Indonesia, Canada, Paris…?

Pandemic Emergency Laws.

About the Fluwikie:( Copy and Pasted for you)

The purpose of the Flu Wiki is to help local communities prepare for and perhaps cope with a possible influenza pandemic. This is a task previously ceded to local, state and national governmental public health agencies. Our goal is to be:

a reliable source of information, as neutral as possible, about important facts useful for a public health approach to pandemic influenza a venue for anticipating the vast range of problems that may arise if a pandemic does occur a venue for thinking about implementable solutions to foreseeable problems

Before the present threat of an avian flu pandemic, these tasks were formerly ceded to local, state, national and international public health agencies. But no one, in any health department or government agency, knows all the things needed to cope with an influenza pandemic. The world is filled with competent others who are likely to have credible and useful information about some aspect of each of these tasks. By pooling and sharing our knowledge, we hope to advance both preparation for and the ability to cope with events as they unfold.

Flu Wiki is not meant to be a substitute for planning, preparation and implementation by civil authorities, but instead is a parallel effort that complements, supports and extends those efforts. And while there are a small group of editors who will continue to administer and maintain the Wiki, it is the users of Flu Wiki who will shape its utility and relevance based on the contributions they make. We hope you will find the instructions sufficient to get started. You’ll soon be learning on your own.

Here is a link to the site. http://www.fluwikie2.com and the Discussion forum, please feel free to visit and participate if you like

With Respect

Kim

Bronco Bill – at 23:59

KimT – at 23:51 --- I am so sorry to hear your news. My prayers are with you.

Your letter is awesome and incredible and very well thought out. I hope that one, or more, of our experts here will be willing to take the time to meet with this person and find some definite, or even “not-so-definite” answers…I’ll keep my fingers crossed.

Again, tonight, you’ll be in my prayers…good luck and take care of yourself. And, don’t leave…you don’t have to disappear.

BB

Ange D – at 23:59

Kim, that was such a great overview of fluwikie for Dr Naponick. Super job! I hope and pray that the doctor is just hazarding a bad guess about your health. Please, please leave some updates on how you are doing someplace on fluwikie that is a frequently traveled area so we can hopefully . . . hear GOOD news about you. Good luck dear.

23 August 2006

anon_22 – at 00:03

Kim, so sorry to hear about your health. I hope this is a false alarm and everything turns out ok.

thank you for posting that letter and all that you’ve done. We welcome participation from all sectors of society, government officials and politicians included. Dr Naponick is certainly welcome to either post here or contact any of the mods here. Our email addresses can be found by following the links on this page.

Take care of yourself and hope you get over whatever has been causing problems for you soon.

Tom DVM – at 00:17

KimT. I guess I will speak for the other 999 or 9990 persons on flu wiki in saying that we are all in this together and we hope that whatever ails you is a short-term and harmless setback.

Take care of yourself!!

Jefiner – at 00:25

{{{{{KimT}}}}}} thoughts, prayers, and meditations are with you. Hang in there—

Edna Mode – at 10:26

Mods, Not sure if this is the right place to pose this question, but figured it’s as good as any…

When all the mods are back in the saddle following vaca, are you planning to convene to talk about what’s been going on in Indonesia these past days and give the group here your impressions? It would seem a good time to do so as you’ll have the benefit of another week or two having elapsed for added perspective on the turn of events.

Melanie – at 10:43

Edna Mode,

We are scheduling a conference call when everyone is back in place.

Edna Mode – at 11:03

Great. I look forward to hearing what you all have to say. Thanks, Melanie.

DemFromCTat 18:22

by the way, did everyone see this?

CDC and APHL Make Influenza Virus Sequence Data Publicly Accessible

Collaboration with public health labs will foster greater research and openness Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) have released genetic blueprints for over 650 genes of influenza viruses into a database accessible to researchers worldwide. The action marks the beginning of a collaboration between the CDC and the Association of Public Health Laboratories (APHL) that will allow for greater access to data on a variety of influenza virus samples obtained from patients in the United States, including avian influenza H5N1 if it should arrive here.

Through the new collaboration, CDC expects to provide genetic information for several hundred influenza viruses per year as a way to encourage more research on influenza. The sequence data will be available in nearly real time through Genbank, a public-access library for virus sequences managed by the National Institutes of Health, and through an influenza database housed at Los Alamos National Laboratories (LANL). The information added will include viruses from the annual flu season in the United States, any animal influenza viruses that infect humans and any novel strains that may emerge such as avian influenza H5N1. The new agreement will only apply to viruses isolated in the United States.

“CDC has long supported the timely and open sharing of influenza virus information to foster new research on influenza. We’re excited that this historic collaboration with APHL provides a way to make international exchange of this information possible,” said Dr. Nancy Cox, director of the CDC’s Influenza Division. “With more information, the world’s influenza experts can advance our understanding of the viruses circulating, potentially create new prevention strategies and treatments, and ultimately help us better protect the health of people around the world.”

The sequence information, which is like a DNA fingerprint of each virus, allows researchers to determine more about a virus’s origin and to compare it to other influenza viruses. This will help scientist determine whether the virus is susceptible to antiviral drugs and, in the case of avian influenza currently circulating in much of the world, to assess whether it’s changing in a way that might make the virus more easily transmissible among people - a key property the virus would need to acquire to spark a pandemic. In addition, the sequences can be used to better identify the strains that should be included in the yearly flu vaccine.

Previously, the influenza sequences were available to a small number of influenza researchers who work together with WHO to recommend which influenza viruses should be included in influenza vaccines around the world. The sequence data will now be available through GenBank to anyone with Internet access.

APHL, the national association representing public health laboratories, collaborated with its members to gain approval from all 50 state laboratories to make sequence data from influenza viruses tested in these labs publicly available. APHL promotes effective programs and public policy to strengthen laboratory capacity to protect the health of US residents and to prevent and control disease globally.

“State health department laboratories analyze and subtype thousands of influenza viruses each year. If a novel virus is out there, we will likely be the first to detect it. This is why public health labs are a critical part of our country’s early warning system for pandemic influenza, and why this collaboration with CDC is so important,” said APHL President Dr. Jane Getchell.

State public health laboratories participate in national influenza surveillance efforts by subtyping viruses and routinely submitting some influenza viruses to CDC for more in-depth characterization. CDC asks public health labs to submit samples of influenza viruses from the beginning, peak and end of each flu season, as well as any samples that are unusual. Under the new agreement, if a novel strain is identified at CDC, the state laboratory which submitted it would be notified prior to the posting in Genbank or LANL databases.

CDC has been actively working with the World Health Organization to encourage sharing of viruses from countries with avian flu activity. After the Indonesian government recently agreed to make available the sequences for viruses from Indonesian bird flu patients, CDC placed total genome sequences for over 40 H5N1 viruses into a public-access database.

“We hope these initiatives will set the stage for other countries to adopt similar approaches to the release of Influenza virus sequence data that they manage” Dr. Cox said.

AnnieBat 21:49

Dem, Dem, Dem, what can I say? What is the point of creating news summaries if you don’t bother with them? Was this item in yesterday’s news thread? - Yes. Was it included in the news summary? - Yes.

Just kidding my good man - better that things are repeated several times then not seen at all.

having all teh data publicly availalbe is magic - my only issue is that this will not resolve the need for current H5N1 (HPAI) sequences as USA does not have any yet …

24 August 2006

Commonground – at 07:23

The Pro-Med article I posted developed a side-scroll. Sorry…..

Gary – at 08:30

Melanie, are you OK? Your Bump site shows no new postings in a bit. I see you are around here, which is good. Just checking what with Kim T’s bad news and all.

Dennis in Colorado – at 09:06

Major side scroll in News Reports for August 24.

DemFromCTat 09:42

AnnieB – at 21:49

we have casual readers of the site, and I wanted it seen. No offense to the news summary mavens such as yourself.. ;-)

Dennis in Colorado – at 09:06

I’m trying to fix…

Monotreme – at 10:28

I think there is Spam in Qinghai H5N1 thread.

25 August 2006

Science Teacher – at 12:56

I think that the Coping with your Emotions thread part 2 is running out of room (at least on my computer it looks like part of my last post was cut off. Could someone who knows how please start a new one? Thanks for your help!

Bronco Bill – at 13:23

Science Teacher – at 12:56 ---

I just checked the thread, and it looks okay from here. Do a refresh of your browser and see if it comes back to normal.

The threads don’t really run out of room, they just tend to get long and slow down a bit. That’s when they get split into succeeding threads.

Bronco Bill – at 13:24

I’ll probably split that thread tonight, as well as others….

SPAM ALERT – at 14:50

Spam alert for “Finding Other Preppers Deutschland 2″ — advert for porn sites.

URGENT - FrenchieGirlat 16:34

Mods please see the discussion going on on the news thread and act as you see fit. Thanks.

JV – at 17:21

Mods, I posted on the NEWS Aug 25 thread at about 14:12 re info I received. Different people have suggested that the basic source should be deleted. I did not realize this really was not a good idea. Perhaps this source should be deleted in the posts. Thanks.

DemFromCTat 17:32

I’ve been reading it, JV. I defer to you as author.

DemFromCTat 17:35

Edited. Please check for suitability.

JV – at 17:52

Dem -

Re my post, that is fine. There are continued references however in other later posts. You will have to decide whether this is important to edit or not. I just had no idea what a stir this would cause. My apologies for any problems.

DemFromCTat 18:19

I’m not planning to edit everyone else’s posts. The discussion as it stands is sufficiently obscure.

Dennis in Colorado – at 22:18

SPAM ALERT in “Increased Cytokine Production in H 5 N 1 Patients”

Dude – at 23:00

Is it ok for the ribbon campaign to use the download site for their design of a color ribbon with a “P” in it and a card that would send people to this site…see their thread. Thanks.

SPAM On Cytokie Production Thread – at 23:35

They are at it again.

SPAM On Cytokie Production Thread – at 23:35

They are at it again.

pogge – at 23:47

Dear Belgium:

If you don’t soon get control of your internet registry and stop the spammers from running riot with it, I’m going to block your whole durn country.

Love, pogge

PS to everyone else: please overlook this momentary outburst.

Mr White42 – at 23:50

“block your whole durn country.”

Now you won’t do no dang such thing!

Thanx pogge MW42-I thot in was the Bels.

Mr White42 – at 23:50

“block your whole durn country.”

Now you won’t do no dang such thing!

Thanx pogge MW42-I thot it was the Bels.

26 August 2006

JV – at 00:03

Mods, I sincerely felt I had some interesting news to offer on the Aug 25 News thread. I have actually been shocked at how it was recieved by some people. I guess I should not have been. I guess as a “reporter,” I do not have a strong stomach. I do though realize that some posters have truly appreciated what I relayed to them. I appreciate that.

Because comments have now turned to the ridiculous, I would like you to completely delete my posts on that thread at 14:12, 15:00, 16:12, 16:27, 16:57, and 17:14. I am so sorry for the inconvienience. I would do it myself if I could.

In the future, if I post anything like this again, I will go to the Rumors thread and be extremely vague about everything.

Mr White42 – at 00:21

JV, I am really sorry. Maybe the fact that you wrote the word “News” a couple of times, the posts were not taken seriously…as in-it must be real, I saw it on the internet. Don’t be upset. You must have been checking the reactions to your post with geat intreast. It is more that most people are still smarting from Mr. Leavitt mentioning “tuna under the bed” a few months back and are not so trusting.

*Hey, If the stuff is for real don’t have it deleted - ROCK ON with it. This situation, (and I am starting to dislike that word)is too serious to back down.

Mr White42 – at 00:36

JV said, “I would do it myself if I could.”

JV! No you wouldn’t. Now retract your retractions.

Retain the posts on that thread at 14:12, 15:00, 16:12, 16:27, 16:57, and 17:14.

please sign here


Bronco Bill – at 00:37

JV…and Mods…leave the post right where it is. It belongs in the news thread because it IS news, whether right or wrong. JV interviewed a purported representative of WHO, that representative presented either his feelings or the “party line” and that was that. There was nothing mysterious in the interview, there didn’t appear to be anything “hidden’, and there certainly was no malice intended by JV.

JV – at 00:42

Mr White42, what I wrote is true. I tried to write “NEWS” and “COMMENTS” because that is what people had requested. I really don’t mind if some people wonder about what I wrote, but there are just way too many totally negative comments. Why have some “NEWS” item on a thread if it causes so many people to become unglued? Maybe I have actually caused a problem with my “reporting.” I actually thought my time was well spent posting this news. I am a physician, and I have been so concerned about H5N1 these past two years. I try to read posts every day so I can try to figure out what is really going on. I honestly don’t know that my information really helps too much anyway…maybe a little, but not a whole lot. Just think about it.

The amount of new information I relayed to everyone does not warrent all of the negative attention it got. I am sorry, but I guess I just don’t like what has happened. Enough people have read what I have written now.

Mods, I would still like all of my above mentioned posts deleted. They are way too distracting for Fluwiki. Thanks.

Bronco Bill – at 00:55

JV – at 00:42 —Leave them where they are. They make great fodder for discussion whether right or wrong. As most folks know, and usually prove, it is much easier to attack the messenger than it is to digest the message…

JV – at 01:05

BB -

OK, don’t delete them. But if there seems to be futher attacks on the messenger, I will ask for them to be deleted. I really don’t need this. This has just been so bizarre today. I post something that should be really interesting news (a lot of which everyone knows), and attacks come from everywhere. People have acted crazy about this. The only thing I could think is that this topic is quite emotional.

anon_22 – at 01:08

I posted this at the News thread and will re-post it here.


I got here late. I read the whole thread, and just want to second BB at 00:23.

I myself have been guilty of posting hearsay from numerous sources, although they did not always appear on news threads.

For Fluwiki to retain its diversity and richness of content, we should IMHO welcome any information given in good faith, even if we may not always agree with it. I trust everyone can be grown up enough to evaluate each piece of information within the context that it was given.

So thank you and apologies to JV…

and hope you post again.

Bronco Bill – at 01:33

JV – at 01:05 --- A few months ago, I posted something that I thought was relevant and newsorthy. I got slammed for it, and nearly walked away from FluWiki because of it. I emailed the mods, and told them how I was feeling, and one of the mods simply told me to ignore the naysayers and grow another layer of skin. He would not accept me leaving. Y’know…it worked. You post what you think is right, no matter what, and let the others try to dissect it. It’s only their opinion anyway, as nobody knows where this this thing is going. It could blow up tomorrow and get us all, or it could quietly disappear and we’ll never hear of it again. It’s anybody’s guess. I found your post quite interesting, and did not doubt for a minute that what you had to say was anything but your honest transcription.

So I say to you, JV, grow another layer of skin, so as you go along and grow with FluWiki, you have extra skin to slough off… I for one will not accept your request to delete your post.

Centex – at 01:43

JV - I really appreciate your knowlege, insight and willingness to discuss it. That goes for Tom DVM as well. There is no possible way that I could have been compelled to study this much, (in this depth) without you both and others. Thanks a million!

mosaic – at 03:48

JV – at 00:42

 “The amount of new information I relayed to everyone does not warrent all of the negative attention it got. I am sorry, but I guess I just don’t like what has happened. Enough people have read what I have written now.”

Hi JV, I read the post with the WHO individual interview, and even copied a part of it and sent it to someone who I thought would be interested. I havent seen the rest of the thread yet, but appreciated you sending that info.

DemFromCTat 07:54

JV, thank you for posting. I hope you review all the comments, here and on the news thread.

Monotreme – at 09:17

There is spam on the Deutschland thread.

Tom DVM – at 09:28

JV I just commented on yesterdays news thread and would appreciate it if you could read it. Thanks.

Tom DVM – at 09:38

Actually annon 22, that is an excellent idea!! I will just copy my comment here. Thanks.

Bronco Bill annon 22 Thanks for your comments. I do not believe there was malice intended by any of those who were critically analysing the post. They were just making sure they understood the situation fully…I don’t think there is anything wrong with that and I don’t think JV will be insulted or not post again.

For those who were not here last winter, We had reached an early stage of discussion where most were not comfortable with discussing specific treatments because it was assumed you should not be treating yourself but talking to a doctor…

…well JV is a doctor and was the first to jump in ‘with all guns blazing’. He/she did not mix words and stated clearly that the hospitals would collapse, there would be very limited medical care and began to discuss in very clear terms, detailed information on antibiotics etc. including if I remember correctly, links to the pharmaceutical compendium and journal articles.

This was not done in a condescending manner or using big words that we would not be able to understand but in simple language.

In my opinion, then and now, it was an ‘act of bravery’ because it did break a code of silence.

This above was presented in the same straightforward manner…for our information.

JV is a professional and is commited flu fighter and he/she will not be put off by what went on here…because neither side acted in malice.

It is not a crime to question or disagree if at the end of the day, proper acknowledgments are made.

So onward and upward…we have a big fish to fry!!

Thanks again JV…Thanks everyone /:0)

Tom DVM – at 10:04

Centex Thank you for your kind comments. I’m sure they will mean as much to JV as they mean to me…

…but honestly, I am not here to share information with my fellow man…I am here to learn from you…and I have learned as much from you as you have learned from me.

My late much loved (by me) brother-in-law (farmer of course) had a saying which is applicable here…

…he said that for a deal to work (buying or selling)…everyone had to win…

…Well, truer words were never spoken and I think the reason flu wiki works…is because everyone including JV and myself wins.

The near future for us is going to be challenging…I have a pretty good idea that the world as we know it is going to change…maybe a lot…maybe a little…but it’s nice to know that you have company along the way.

Thanks again for the comments.

JV – at 10:48

Tom DVM, BB, and other supporters -

I have always been completely honest, and my intentions have always been the very best. Especially if you don’t know a person, maybe that is hard to believe these days. I certainly am not perfect, and I can make mistakes. I guess because of my sincere nature, I found it hard to accept the criticism sent my way. It even became bizarre. I had no intention of doing anything wrong in any way. If I did, I apologize. The whole thread became disheveled.

If I have more info, I will go to the Rumors page and not be specific about from where the “rumor” came. Those who know me will know that I do not post rumors. Those who tend to become unglued will not because it is “just a rumor.” I have decided I would not survive in the reporters’ world.

I do appreciate all of those who supported me and my reporting. Apparently it is hard to take a stand on anything these days.

As far as I am concerned, this whole episode is over. Let’s just all try to find whatever truth there is out there, and figure out how to deal with what is coming our way!

Thanks again Tom DVM, BB, and others

Science Teacher – at 11:03

Well said, Tom and BB. JV, I support your efforts, too, and your proven integrity. It is in the nature of those who read here to question, question, question. All part of the learning process. The art of communications is in building a positive framework for posing these questions. We can all learn from this. I look forward to reading more information from you no matter which thread you post on. :)

Science Teacher – at 11:31

Dear MODS

My apologies for not discussing this with you sooner. The Red Ribbon Pandemic Awareness Campaign has grown roots quickly. Unfortunately, our hive mind on that thread has not addressed several key issues:

 Do we have your permission to continue the pursuit of this project in providing this sites web address on the business cards?

We do not know if this idea will ‘catch fire’ or not. If it does, can this site handle the extra traffic?

Much to ponder here.

moeb – at 12:28

QUESTION: Is there any set policy concerning posting pics? thanks

DemFromCTat 12:52

we prefer not to post/host pics because of both bandwidth and copyright issues. But those we create… not an issue.

Science Teacher , can you write me at demfromct at earthlink.net?

anon_22 – at 13:00

Science Teacher – at 11:31

Do we have your permission to continue the pursuit of this project in providing this sites web address on the business cards?

Thanks for asking. We have discussed this at length. FluWiki is an internet-only entity and does not carry out any other activity than what you can see here on this internet site. Anything else outside of that is the personal responsibility of whoever is directly in charge of the activity, and that includes the mods.

There are many reasons for this rule including legal ones but a big one is that the mods do not have the capability of keeping track of whatever is being done outside of this site. So please feel free to go ahead with your community campaigns, just use a different name and then add FluWiki as a resource.

For the same reason, only the mods can use business cards with the web address.

Science Teacher – at 16:05

Anon 22, thanks for your response. I was not aware of the above parameters.

Could you clarify what you mean by “So please feel free to go ahead with your community campaigns, just use a different name and then add FluWiki as a resource.” By name do you mean the thread title? Can you provide an example of wording as to how it would be OK to use the Fuwiki as a resource?

Thanks for your help. I understand the need for your rules and will, of course, work within your boundaries. Do you feel that this is the appropriate place to work on starting this campaign?

Bronco Bill – at 16:12

Science Teacher – at 16:05 --- I’m guessing that Anon_22 means that on a business card, you shouldn’t use www.fluwikie.com on the front as the company name line. You can reference fluwikie on the back of the card as a resource, but not as a corporate entity. That said, you should also list a couple of other web addresses as references, such as Effect Measure, so people don’t get the impression that you’re representing FW exclusively.

Science Teacher – at 16:28

BB, thanks! Our business card was to have the word’s on the front:

Pandemic Awareness with a non- wiki quote under it.

On the back it will now list several resources such as Fluwiki. Are we allowed or not to give the wiki web address if it is given in context with other sites? Just trying to clarify before we do more brainstorming on this. Thanks. ST

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 16:36

Hey I was just wondering whatever happened to the tee-shirt campaign that was going gang-busters for awhile? Did it just fizzle out or were we directed somewhere to buy one & I just missed the link or what?

JV, Tom, and other medical personnel, thanks for your efforts, on all counts!

thanks, Rose

anon_22 – at 16:55

Bronco Bill – at 16:12

Science Teacher – at 16:05 --- I’m guessing that Anon_22 means that on a business card, you shouldn’t use www.fluwikie.com on the front as the company name line. You can reference fluwikie on the back of the card as a resource, but not as a corporate entity. That said, you should also list a couple of other web addresses as references, such as Effect Measure, so people don’t get the impression that you’re representing FW exclusively.

THAT is one of the most brilliant pieces that I have read. I haven’t checked with the other mods but I think it should work. Thanks.

<anon goes to move BBB’s name another couple of notches up in her ‘smart’ scale…not much more room left up there!>

Nightowl – at 17:22

Would we then need to get permission from other non-government sites?

Thanks Science Teacher for following up on all of this. Just a matter of tweaking things as in most endeavors. Thanks, BB.

Is there a timeframe for when fluwiki will be able to handle more traffic?

Bronco Bill – at 17:59

Nightowl – at 17:22 --- It wouldn’t hurt to ask them…I would think they’d be happy to get the free advertising…

anon_22 – at 16:55 --- ROTFLMAO!!! You seriously got a good laugh out of me today! Thanks…

anon_22 – at 18:35

BBB,

OK, I got dumb question. What is the ‘A’ in ROTFLMAO? :-)

Average Concerned Mom – at 18:43

arse (in your lingua)

Olymom – at 18:51

Like many others, I am reading the news from Indonesia with concern. I am also wondering what happened to the 1918 flu — did it completely die out or is a version of it still in circulation? I know some fragments of the 1918 flu were unearthed from frozen corpses and analyzed, but I haven’t read if that virus is still in some (moderate) form in humans. Is there an answer to this “still in circulation” question on flu wiki? I’m not sure where to even start looking.

Some general direction pointers would be deeply appreciated.

anon_22 – at 19:12

Olymom,

That’s a good question. Since this is not a logistical but a content question, I am going to put it in a new thread for ‘Evolution of Flu Viruses’ so that similar discussion can be grouped together in one series.

Cache Cow – at 20:54

Dear Mods,

Does the wikie have a definition of what counts as “news” vs “rumor?”

Thank you.

DemFromCTat 21:02

Sure.

This is an experiment. Rumors can start from anywhere. They can start from an event that is misunderstood; someone can “start” a rumor to intentionally mislead others or someone can pass on information that they “heard”, and perhaps elaborate on , but sincerely believe is true. News media and web sites can propagate rumors, again sometimes intentionally and sometimes not intentionally, but because they did not adequately research and cross-check the facts. With widespread access to internet, rumors can spread in unprecedented time. Some rumors turn out to be false, others stubbornly hold out, and still others turn out to be true. If we can document sources, and adequately cross-check our facts, we might be better able to determine whether rumors are really rumors.

Snowhound1 – at 21:13

Cache Cow- I am not a mod, but my husband runs many newspapers. I think he would agree that the definition of news is the same as in Webster’s.

news:1 to report of a recent event:new information ;fresh tidings 2: what is reported in a newspaper, news periodical, or news broadcast b: matter that is interesting to newspaper readers or news broadcast audiences..

I would think that the same would apply to the wikie.

With respects…

Cache Cow – at 21:17

Thanks, Dem. By the time I made it to the “News” thread yesterday, there was an ongoing discussion started by a poster named, JV claiming to detail opinions of a powerful person “in the know” that a pandemic would not happen this year.

As a journalist myself, I was immediately suspicious of whether this “I know a guy who knows a guy” (I emailed him my questions thru a third party…) situation could be relied upon as true news or if it would have been better suited to the rumors thread.

Having only just arrived here to ask my question of what is news vs. rumor, it sounds like some of the information may have been stripped out of JV’s post - which was not revealed on the news thread and only served to erode the credibility of the post further.

While we have a good working definition of what counts as “rumor” I think we should have an equally good working definition of what counts as news.

BirdGuanoat 21:24

Science Teacher – at 11:31 Do we have your permission to continue the pursuit of this project in providing this sites web address on the business cards?


I think something needs to be clarified here.

“Business Cards” as it related to the Pandemic Awareness discussion refers only to the SIZE of the awareness campaign cards, not to somebody who’s printing up cards as calling cards to represent the Wiki.

It’s much cheaper to use an existing business card format at someplace like VistaPrint, than to print note cards with the same information and needing to format it as a special print run.

I just though that needed to be clarified, as I see some mis-interpretation on the use of the term “Business Card”

It’s not for business. Nobody is representing the Wiki.

It’s merely the FORM of a note card used to raise pandemic awareness when handed out with a red ribbon, and should include multiple web sites.

Just like those printed for AIDS or Breast Cancer awareness.

Cache Cow – at 21:31

Hi Snowhound1. You’ll find that the definition of what counts as “news” is as varried as the organizations that report/print it. The definition of news at The National Enquirer is much different than at The Chicago Tribune.

If personal statements that have not and cannot be crosschecked and supported thru follow ups such as, “I heard this…” or “A friend told me this…” can count as news on the wikie, then the credibility of the site in general can really be called into question. I think credibility as something that all of us are concerned about as we try to get the word out about AI.

Emotion also has no place in the news thread. It sounds as if JV is very well liked and respected by many here. That is terrific, but it doesn’t make JV an acceptable news source, esp. when he/she is reporting hearsay that was transmitted thru a third party.

I would submit that JV’s info would have been much better received if not put in the news thread alongside real news stories. JV’s post, no matter how well intentioned, didn’t rise to the level of the news contained within the news thread.

Snowhound1 – at 21:48

This is the Internet…I respectfully maintain, that anything garnered here is a buyers’ beware market. The wikie is trying to do something that is out of the norm really, since there is no precedent, that I know of, tring to prepare for and predict a future occurence. Trying to gather evidence of an event that has not yet happened, and is still hypothetical is a difficult one. It is simply a hypothesis. Perhaps, in order to ascertain whether a pandemic is imminent, we may indeed require going out of the normal channels of news gathering, in order to try to discern what may be the truth. It will be left up to the individual to filter the information available, for themselves. I think that is one of the reasons that mainstream media won’t touch it. Those of us that are here are obviously open to the idea of this happening and are more willing than most to have a look at “all” information.

Cache Cow – at 21:55

Snowhound1, well said. My position is that propperly categorizing information assists in making the most informed decissions. This is why we have different thread areas in the forum on the fluwikie. Technically, any rumor could be true and any rumor could be helpful, but I don’t want them mixed in with the news thread.

Snowhound1 – at 22:01

On a sidenote…I also think that Indonesia is playing a fear monger hand at the moment. They know that they do have things occuring in their country in regard to H5N1 and in an effort to garner more monetary support are playing to the media, and putting every “suspect” case in the “news” as possible. As a result it is causing many to have increasing fears about the possibility of a pandemic. Until they are able to provide more positive “proof” as backed up by national agencies, the MSM is not going to support their position. Suspect cases, are just that, suspect. With the U.S. Navy sitting right off of their shores, I would expect a fairly accurate account of the presentation of cases. I do not think that there will be a conspiracy to cover up the beginnings of a pandemic. Too much to lose if they do.

Snowhound1 – at 22:02

And could not any rumor actually be “news”?

Snowhound1 – at 22:10

I could use my brother-in-law as an example. He frequently travels to Indonesia and Vietnam and IF (totally hypothetical) he arrived from one of his trips with the symptoms of H5N1 in Dallas, and was in the hospital, I definitely would post it in the NEWS thread. Despite the fact that it would be heresay, as dictated in a court of law. I think my fellow fluwikians would appreciate that.

ANON-YYZ – at 22:13

Snowhound1 – at 22:01

Indonesia has a highly decentralised political structure. I don’t think a regency will care to increase the suspect numbers just to help the national government to attract more international funding. I think they are more worried about the next village not buying their farming output. Having more cases mean fewer will buy.

Cache Cow – at 22:17

Snowhound1. A rumor could be news, but until it is proven so, that is exactly why the rumor thread exists.

As per your brother-in-law, IMO it would be alarmist and irresponsible to post in the news thread until he was diagnosed as having H5N1. More appropriate would be to start a new thread to discuss what he “may” have.

Ask your DH where he expects the papers he runs to draw the line between rumor and news. If he runs several papers, I would imagine he sets the bar very high.

ANON-YYZ – at 22:21

Cache Cow – at 21:55

You place a lot of responsibility on a ‘reporter’, and by extension trust.

Instead of stating what JV posted as not meeting a standard for news, I simply debated the substance without paying attention to where it might come from.

No one has time to be ‘editor’ for any posts. We have to make our own individual decisions on what’s credible, not who’s credible.

Snowhound1 – at 22:28

Anon_YYZ..”Indonesia has a highly decentralised political structure” and a highly corrupt one at that. Are not all of the suspect cases being reported from national figure heads? All I am saying is that I am reserving judgement until a lot more is known and verified. The current “river” of suspect cases seems to be increasing in speed, yet there has been no verification to support the increase in cases, and the fear that reporting these cases may be causing. It could be they are all “infected”, and it could be they aren’t. I am just trying to maintain my neutral stance until more is known. The fact that Indonesia made such a public announcement of reducing their budget to counter H5N1, makes them all the more “suspect” in my book as far as this possibly being a monetary motivation. Millions of dollars will make people do strange things..

Snowhound1 – at 22:32

Cache Cow…funny you should mention that. I can’t get him to touch it with a ten foot pole. I am still working on him though and it is one of the reasons I am here everyday. He runs 25 dailies and has an input into a great many others. He could have a substantial impact on people’s lives but he needs the evidence that will convince him to do something about it.

Cache Cow – at 22:33

Anon YYZ - I expect news in the news thread to be from actual journalists who check facts, not people who have a gut feeling that they are being told the truth. While I question everything I read always, in a news thread if the news has been provided by a reputable news organization, I assume certain standards in compiling that story were met.

How do we know the unnamed party JV was communicating thru is trustworthy and wasn’t manipulating the communication back and forth? We don’t.

None of this should be seen as maligning JV, but his/her post simply does not meet the ongoing standard of posting published news reports from professional journalistic sources that has been established in the news thread.

If I had a hot piece of BF info and it wasn’t published by one of the newspapers/magazines I write for, I would start my own thread for it. To post it in the established news thread suggests it has been vetted and checked, which JV’s wasn’t.

Bronco Bill – at 22:34

If you see something on the News thread that you deem to be nothing more than a rumor, make a comment that you think it’s a rumor and move on. And vice-versa. It’s very simple.

Cache Cow---the thread you’re questioning did have names in it, in links that were referred to. JV asked the Moderators to remove those links so as not to incriminate the person he spoke with. Whether a diatribe comes from the Director General of the UN, or one of the minions lower down the ladder, it still comes from people who are closest to the answers that we all crave. Accept it as news until you can prove it’s not.

It seems to me y’all are making a big to-do over nothing. If the mods don’t have a problem with it, then what’s to question? This has nothing to do with Wiki credibility…it has everything to do with either accepting or denying what was put out there.

Bronco Bill – at 22:39

As per your brother-in-law, IMO it would be alarmist and irresponsible to post in the news thread until he was diagnosed as having H5N1. More appropriate would be to start a new thread to discuss what he “may” have.

No. If Snowhound1 went to the News thread and stated “My BIL has symptoms of Avian Infuenza”, that would be news. It would not be a rumor, because it was not passed via several different vectors to SH1. It came directly from the source. News. It would not be a rumor, and it most certainly would not warrant a new Forum thread to discuss it. If, and when, the diagnosis came back that it was definitely HPAI H5N1, then absolutely, SH1 should open a thread. But until then, it’s news.

Cache Cow – at 22:41

Snowhound1. That is a great word - evidence. It is what seperates fiction from fact and rumor from news. My wife is a Family Med physician and we have quite interesting conversations here.

Snowhound1 – at 22:42

Thank you BB…I’ll keep my fingers crossed that he isn’t the index case in the U.S. >;)

Snowhound1 – at 22:45

My point exactly Cache Cow…we are trying to find Evidence! In order to do so, all information needs to be looked at, examined and put through the ringers. So we do agree! :)

Snowhound1 – at 22:47

I just could care less which “thread” it goes on…

Bronco Bill – at 22:51

If I had a hot piece of BF info and it wasn’t published by one of the newspapers/magazines I write for, I would start my own thread for it. To post it in the established news thread suggests it has been vetted and checked, which JV’s wasn’t.

Cache Cow---are you saying that those other journals of news that you don’t write for are all fabrications and should not be believed? How do we know who you write for?

You see…The Internet can produce many amazing job descriptions without meeting a person face to face. I, in fact, am one of the busiest software developers in the US. I own a huge software company that builds a database imaging resonance application that works with many of the governmental organizations that perform overseas operations within the borders of little-known enemies of the US.

Now, would that be a rumor, or a fact? I suppose it all depends on who’s saying it…it came from me first, and since I am the source, and the person I’m talking about is me, it must be news. But if the exact same utterance came from a party who had heard it from somebody I told it to, would it then become a rumor? Using your definition, it would be a rumor, because it didn’t come from a credible, certified newsprint journalist or publication that you work for.

In fact, I’m not. I’m just a network geek…

Cache Cow – at 22:56

BB, then according to your position (with which I strongly disagree) anyone can post anything in the news section and call what they are posting “news.” It doesn’t have to be vetted and doesn’t have to meet any minimal criteria for being factual. One person who doesn’t provide names can say whatever they like. You’ll pardon me if I don’t accept your view on this and ask Melanie and Dem to weigh in.

Cache Cow – at 23:04

BB, I am not sure exactly what your position with the wikie is, but if you are in fact a mod, I am surprised at your high degree of sensitivity.

We are having a discussion here as to what counts as news and what counts as rumor.

If you want my bona fides, feel free to contact Mama up in Canada.

In the meantime, can we stop taking this so personally and discuss the issue at hand?

Snowhound1 – at 23:07

Oh, then all of the “suspect” cases are not news, since they are not verified…they must be rumored cases then. Do I have that right? >;)

Bronco Bill – at 23:09

Then we agree to disagree. But if every piece of information that was brought forth to the FluWiki had it’s own thread, we would have crashed the server a long time ago. Again. If someone feels that they have credible news to report, I feel they should post it on the news thread and let the readers here dissect it with comments. If all we post is dry news, and nobody has an opinion about it, then it really isn’t news. It becomes trivial, and appears to have no interest. Perhaps we should have a new thread to discuss the use of particular threads that folks don’t agree on…that could be a real scream!

Snowhound1 – at 23:13

Isn’t this fun? Kind of reminds me of the debate team. :) Hugs and kisses to all. I’m going to go and watch the “news” LOL

Cache Cow – at 23:15

BB, I will agree to disagree with you, if you will do me one favor. If you take info out of a post that identifies the sources, will you please make this clear, i.e. state that pertinent info has been stripped out at the author’s request? I hit the wikie a lot less often these days than I would like and had not seen JV’s name before. I don’t have the built in trust for him/her that you do. With the post missing organization names and individual names it really was highly suspect. Thanks.

Cache Cow – at 23:20

Snowhound1. Suspect cases in current jargon are patients who have presented to a HCW and have been deemed by said HCW as being suspect for H5N1.

I would rather hear about your brother-in-law’s condition from a hospital or a reputable news source (no offense intended here) than from you that he just got back from Indo, feels like crud and oh my gosh I think he has H5N1.

Those are non-biased, non-emotional sources I could better believe and trust.

DennisCat 23:21

Snowhound1 – at 23:07 Yes, and by the “must be vetted logic” we must only post things that have been verified by WHO. I want all the information I can get and I will sort it out in my own mind. There is no reason to think that some reporter for MSM is any more truthful or accurate than a private individual. It is better to have more information than too little. It is up to the reader to make his or her own value judgments.

That being said, I discounted the information from JV as just talk and words. I prefer to look at actions.

Snowhound1 – at 23:30

Cache Cow…(An ad is on…) I could guarantee that I could have it in a newspaper within 24–48 hours just by calling up some editor and expressing my suspicions, as long as I was accurate in my belief. Thus the hospital would back me up, and it would be verifiable, unless they were trying to cover it up, which I don’t think they would. He would definitely be a “suspect” case, yes?…I wouldn’t post it, unless it could be verifed. I tend to be a pretty honest person. I guess that is what we are debating, to some degree though, isn’t it?

Cache Cow – at 23:39

Snowhound1. Your obvious elequence and expertise in our “debating” club notwithstanding ;) the fact that a newspaper would be involved in verifying your poor bro-in-law’s condition and would publsih the finding would satisfy my requirements. Let’s hope this never ever has to happen.

27 August 2006

Bronco Bill – at 00:30

So a rumor, published in a newspaper, would be taken as fact by you? Cool. I read that the Red Sox are gonna win the Series again this year! ;-) <g>

If you take info out of a post that identifies the sources, will you please make this clear, i.e. state that pertinent info has been stripped out at the author’s request?

THAT is the best request made of that post. Thank you. The post should have had an entry at the end of it by the moderator stating what was done. You are correct.

But I will anwer you this---no, I’m not a moderator here. But I am on this board nearly 24/7. I go to bed at about 11pm, and FW is the last thing I look at. I crawl out at 4am, and FW is the second thing I look at (after my empty coffee cup). I’m not sure I could be a Moderator here, honestly, ‘cuz I sometimes get into heated discussions like this.

So, we’ve agreed on this: when the Mods edit a post, they should leave a note on that post stating that it was modified for xyz reason. That way, there should be no question of whether it was posted as it is viewed.

anon_22 – at 01:03

Cache Cow – at 22:56 “BB, then according to your position (with which I strongly disagree) anyone can post anything in the news section and call what they are posting “news.”

Anyone can post in the news section because this is an open forum. Anyone with internet access, that is. We call it the ‘News’ thread for want of a better word, but it is not meant to follow the standards of professional news media, and we have never pretended otherwise.

It doesn’t have to be vetted

No, we do not vet or edit posts. They appear exactly as the person who pressed the ‘post’ button intends it to appear.

and doesn’t have to meet any minimal criteria for being factual.

We prefer and requests links or other ways of verifying the report. If someone does not provide that, we may request it again. If that request is ignored, or a source is not available for whatever reason, those reading the thread will realize that by reading it through. Or they can post a question, asking why there is no source. This kind of back-and-forth conversation is the process by which the reader can judge for him/herself the veracity of the item posted.

We do not always agree on the believability of an item of information, and we do not have to agree. This is a free speech, free thinking forum.

One person who doesn’t provide names can say whatever they like.

Unfortunately, that is true, and it is also true for almost all internet forums of this nature.

You’ll pardon me if I don’t accept your view on this and ask Melanie and Dem to weigh in.

Well, I’ve given my 2C. You’re welcome to ask again if you have further questions.

Jefiner – at 01:55

Cache—let it rest. You have made your point, so let ‘er go.

MAinVAat 02:03

Used to be an old saying, “Paper never did refuse ink.” What that means is that one ought not to trust what is printed in a newspaper merely BECAUSE it is printed in a newspaper! I think it was within the last week that we had a reporter “quoting” a phyician to say that the longer it takes for the flu to arrive the better since that will give more people time to gain immunity. When one of our wiki colleagues emailed the Dr. he came back with very clear and convincing statements that is not what he said or implied. In a word — he was misquoted. That must have been a first in newspaper annals since they are supposed to be so expert at shifting fact from rumor.[/snark]

All the talk about “evidence,” heresay,” and the like takes me back to my days practicing law in Chicago. Far as I can tell, the standard required in a court of law is NOT the same standard that has worked so well on this wiki board to share much needed information and for that I, for one, am very grateful! If we have to apply a “legal standard” to what is posted, we are not going to learn much at this most critical time amidst all the chaos. And, there may be an underlying misunderstanding regarding the Hearsay Rule, which has many, many exceptions, btw. It’s real purpose is to protect a witness’ right to cross examine the original person who made the out-of-court statement. That’s why that rule has no place here.

Bottom line: Since I, too, am a “published author” and IF that gives me any creds in this “debate,” then I vote for any and ALL bits of news to be put on the News thread. I’m smart enough to figure out for myself what sounds like facts [which may or may not be true], opinion and even hearsay [which, simply because it may be 3rd hand, doesn’t mean it isn’t true.] So far it appears to me that 99.4% of all other readers on this board [or at least those that post] appear to be equally competent to decide for themselves.

mosaic – at 02:13

This is the internet. You can attempt to have all the rules and organization you want. You can even write them down someplace for all to see, and even request that posters read them. Many still wont read them, or if they do, will forget in 2–3 days. Some people will follow them religiously, but there will always be lots that wont, didnt understand them in the first place, disagreed with them, are born rebels, or are just new to the site.

The fact remains that there are so many people that come and go on the various flu boards including this one, it would take a miracle if they would all follow the same guidelines for posting news, rumors or anything else. Assuming everyone agreed on the same rules in the first place. Without iron-fisted moderation, the best organization is a relatively loose one - just like the one that is already in place here.

So what is the solution for those who want greater organization and get upset when people post in what they consider the ‘wrong place’? Relax. Learn to be a bit more flexible. Other peoples’ postings are totally out of your control - and always will be. If you think a post is out of place or a rumor with no substantiation, mentally dismiss it, and move on the next message. You’ll save your sanity that way.

Commonground – at 05:19

Why can’t I get a line break? See my last post in Indo Cluster Case Summary Thead. I thought I was doing it right.

Use \\ (two backslashes) at the end of a line to force a line break, but keep the current environment (e.g. stay inside the current list item).

mountainlady – at 06:16

About newspapers getting facts right: I have some experience with articles about a person I know being written for newspapers, and have to say that we have gotten to the point that if the name is spelled right we figure that’s about as good as it gets. If most of the facts are right, that is a bonus.

So, to me, a lot of times there isn’t a whole lot of difference between newspapers and visiting with the neighbors (y’all are like neighbors in my opinion) about something, especially if the newspapers/mainstream media has an agenda, because then there may be crucial points left out.

I do like the idea of it being mentioned if links have been removed to protect identity(s), or for whatever reason. That at least will give a clue as to the veracity of the post. Since I often only read the news thread, because that is all I have time to read, I would prefer anything that might be considered the first reporting of news to be there so I can get a heads up.

FrenchieGirlat 06:21

Some reflections on the debate above and another debate on similar lines which happened a few weeks ago. This might be a little lengthy. But I would like to explain why I think we should not attempt to put too much rules in the running of the threads so that we may fulfil the avowed goal of having the most useful Wiki on the Internet, in terms of saving lives from bird flu.

Background

When I was a little girl, my Dad used to have the local daily, one leftist newspaper and one rightwing newspaper, in addition to all sorts of medical newspapers and magazines, delivered at home. I used to spend my weekends reading them, because he told me always to compare information before I’d be allowed to discuss anything.

And then, after a heated debate, he’d tell me not to trust any newspaper, but to go and get information where I could (which at the time was the Library and listening to the radio, both French and Swiss radio - we did not have a TV). Then he’d prompt me to revise my opinions and he would continue to provoke me to get deeper and deeper into the subject until I understood the complexity of an argument. He said original thinking comes that way, and that is what is useful in life. That was the most useful legacy he gave me.

He even presented me with ethical debate in a practical way relating to his profession, a doctor, on decisions about which patient to go and treat first when you have a conflict of priorities, particularly during flu season – the baby with a 40şC fever, or an adult with a broken leg. I was once faced with this when, aged 12 or so, he’d gone out on a night call and I had to answer the phone for two other medical emergencie within minutes of each other. I was thankful and still am to this day that I took the right decision and persuaded one to go straight to the local hospital and minutes later managed to raise the other doctor in town in the middle of the night for the other. I knew that my Dad was at the death bed of one of his patients and that he’d stay there to the end, and that he could not be reached anyway (there were few telephones then).

That is the sort of thing you learn by comparing all bits of information however ‘not-on-the-topic’ they may appear at first. As a result, I was able to get out of life’s nastiest moments, by putting together all the various bits of information together. That’s how I brought up my son, who’s had both advantages and disadvantages of a French, Swiss and English education, and that’s how he’s now the pride of his mother, namely me. That’s how I gave a peaceful six months during his father’s last moments. That’s how I gave three years of life to my second husband.

By probing, questioning, digging, and applying all sorts of knowledge to the problems at hand, I was better able to cope for myself and my loved ones. I am firmly convinced that the FluWiki forum threads should also be handled in an akin fashion.

Thread deviance

Though admittedly we might have shown a bit of restraint and continued what eventually became a discussion rather than purely brief comments on a piece of writing, and that a number of us get carried away on some subjects that do not always belong to the proper thread, it’s one of the strengths of the Wiki to have this freedom of speech.

It’s much more informative than other boards, in that it promotes deep thinking and looking at all angles. True we don’t do always do it in the most organized way.

It is to be said that up till now, ‘organized organizations’ which deal with bird flu have had very limited success in bringing success in defeating the world most dangerous threat. As a result, the Mods and a number of FluWikians are now applying “lateral thinking” to this problem, or one could also call it “fuzzy” thinking.

May I recall that a number of ‘organized organizations’ pay a fortune to hire a few of these lateral/free thinkers for original solutions to old problems that don’t go away with organization, and of which thinkers they have trouble finding. In my place of work, in my department, which is unlike others there, there is a will to hire only those original strong personalities, those that don’t fit into a ready mould, despite the clashes that may occasionally ensue. Believe me, thanks to this, we function very very well, better than other departments.

FluWiki Forum

Organization

At University, my teachers used to tell me that to write a dissertation there were two ways:

(a) make an organised plan for your discussion; or
(b) make a (or several) spider(s) as a central body, and makes its legs with throwing all your ideas, and order them afterwards.

I believe this Wiki is at the “spider body” stage in the forum and has the other threads as its legs. At one point, the information is organized and ends up on the main Wiki.

It’s an adventure, we who participate in it by reading or posting have come to the conclusion that only original thinking may help this world. The FluWiki is an amazingly large collection of talents in all areas that is better than most organizations could ever hire to afford; its members are motivated, they are willing to practice their best talents and to disregard the occasional slip-up, for the greater good to prevail. You will not find this elsewhere, this is unique.

We will never completely avoid our manicchean world, and here it’s a debate on ‘good’ = ‘organized, tidy, everything in its place’ vs. ‘bad’ = ‘disorganized, untidy, everything everywhere’.

Participation

We welcome also people with different ideas, especially if they can be presented in a sensitive way. One should not doubt their sincere desire of making the FluWiki better, because this is also a way for us to think deeper and learn something useful. And they should not be made to feel insecure in expressing themselves either. We may however agree or not with their premises and decide differently as to how we FluWikians desire to run our threads. Anyone who wants an entirely different view should feel free to compare the various sources of information and presentation format, and make their own opinions as to read/post on FluWiki. For those that enjoy putting order and organization, I would suggest they give us this talent by roaming the threads and isolating the best parts to post in an organized fashion on the Main Wiki as some have already done. Yes, we can use this talent, if not inside the Forum threads themselves, but on the other parts of the site.

In fact, skimming the Internet should be encouraged; of those that do and come back here, the more they will have learnt, the more they can help save this world from bird flu, with a FluWikian view. Those that do not come back because their views are different may be able to put their talents to better use elsewhere and this is not bad either, they should not be put down for it. After all, the Internet is a collection of puzzles, and our better tool to help this world at least with respect to bird flu. One should see the Internet as a whole as a collective effort to better this world with individual trends within it, a microcosm of the world at large, with all contributors making it, in the end, a win-win situation for all of us on this earth.

Conclusion

I for one believe that readers and posters are mature enough to separate the wheat from the chaff and we ought not to add more restrictions to the running of threads. I am confident that the Mods will intervene strongly if anyone strays too far from our consensus format.

That way, we can agree to disagree. FluWiki keeps its trend, others keep their own, and there’s occasional interaction between the two that may promote growth in all respects. If we just learn a little bit better to view other’s positions with detachment (despite the occasional outburst of dragon flames), even if we stick to our own positions, then that is also useful, ultimately this is called “tolerance”. Our world needs it too.


This is Sunday, a major effort from me above. Am now going to prepare for my old lady’s Sunday outing. Have a pleasant day – while it lasts - and peace to you all.

FloridaGirlat 07:26

I have just read several hours of very civil discussion. That is very refreshing, and I thank all who participated.

That said, I think to the majority of us who mostly read… take into account the spirt of Flu wiki… Which is… “Read the information everyone so graciously contributes; then make up your own mind.” It lends an atmosphere to learning, thinking, judging, and community.

There are many people here who do an Extraordinary amount of work. They clarify with each other, cite references, and analyize information.

I personally believe JV wants to post in the rumors thread, simply because he wants to remove those references.

News? It is all news here on the wiki….. Every morsel of information is used to clarify orther information.

Just my thoughts….

Cache Cow – at 10:23

Wow, this certainly has sparked a lively debate and I commend those who were able to keep the discourse intelligent and mature.

My seeking the standard of only having published news reports on the news thread was a mistake and I apologize. Though these published reports make up 99.9% of what is on that thread and seem to be an unwritten guideline, many fluwikians obviously don’t want it to be limited to strictly to MSM. That is entirely reasonable.

As someone who has participated in past discussions about how to keep the news thread as uncluttered as possible, my goal was to try to at least keep rumor in the rumor thread. Please understand that by the time I got to JV’s post, which had much of its verifiable info stripped out (w/o a warning to readers that such info had been stripped) it read like pure gossip/rumor i.e. No sources quoted and a plea to trust the poster because he/she had the wikie’s best interest at heart… “I can’t tell you where I heard this, but…”

If you cannot support where you got your “news” i.e. this is who said it, this is my relationship to said person, this is who said person represents, then it doesn’t belong in news it belongs in rumors where things don’t need to be substantiated. Again, there has to be at least some standard of what is news vs what is rumor or else let’s get rid of the rumor thread and place everything in the news thread.

DemFromCTat 10:52

If you take info out of a post that identifies the sources, will you please make this clear, i.e. state that pertinent info has been stripped out at the author’s request?

THAT is the best request made of that post. Thank you. The post should have had an entry at the end of it by the moderator stating what was done. You are correct.

That was MY error, and I will correct it.

DennisCat 11:15

Don’t get me wrong - I would have preferred JV put the information on the rumor page.

However, I never fully understood much difference between a MSM that refuses to give their sources and a individual that does not give their sources, or why it was much different in someone saying that a news paper person said someone else said and an individual saying what someone else said. As with any “information” it is reader beware. But again, normally I just scan the news thread for posts that have a link so I can at least see what they saw. To be truthful, it is seldom (But I do from time to time) call the primary source about the information. Sometime the “news” for me is not so much the post itself but that what people are concerned with and what others think is important enough to post. I want all the information I can get and I will sort it out myself.

Closed and Continued - Bronco Bill – at 11:18

And on that note, we take you to the new Ask the Mods thread, here

Closed for length…no posts copied over. Let’s start fresh…

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