What do think of this info? I’m curious. I have never been a fan of vaccines for many reasons. However, this is new info for me. Here is the website: http://www.drcarley.com/
THE 1918 INFLUENZA EPIDEMIC WAS A VACCINE-CAUSED DISEASE E. McBean (Vaccination The Silent Killer p28)
Very few people realize that the worst epidemic ever to hit America, the Spanish Influenza of 1918 was the after effect of the massive nation-wide vaccine campaign. The doctors told the people that the disease was caused by germs. Viruses were not known at that time or they would have been blamed. Germs. bacteria and viruses, along with bacilli and a few other invisible organisms are the scapegoats which the doctors like to blame for the things they do not understand. If the doctor makes a wrong diagnosis and treatment, and kills the patient, he can always blame it on the germs, and say the patient didnt get an early diagnosis and come to him in time.
If we check back in history to that 1918 flu period, we will see that it suddenly struck just after the end of World War I when our soldiers were returning home from overseas. That was the first war in which all the known vaccines were forced on all the servicemen. This mish-mash of poison drugs and putrid protein of which the vaccines were composed, caused such widespread disease and death among the soldiers that it was the common talk of the day, that more of our men were being killed by medical shots than by enemy shots from guns. Thousands were invalided home or to military hospitals, as hopeless wrecks, before they ever saw a day of battle. The death and disease rate among the vaccinated soldiers was four times higher than among the unvaccinated civilians. But this did not stop the vaccine promoters. Vaccine has always been big business, and so it was continued doggedly.
It was a shorter war than the vaccine-makers had planned on, only about a year for us, so the vaccine promoters had a lot of unused, spoiling vaccines left over which they wanted to sell at a good profit. So they did what they usually do, they called a meeting behind closed doors, and plotted the whole sordid program, a nationwide (worldwide) vaccination drive using all their vaccines, and telling the people that the soldiers were coming home with many dread diseases contracted in foreign countries and that it was the patriotic duty of every man, woman and child to get “protected” by rushing down to the vaccination centers and having all the shots.
Most people believe their doctors and government officials, and do what they say. The result was, that almost the entire population submitted to the shots without question, and it was only a matter of hours until people began dropping dead in agony, while many others collapsed with a disease of such virulence that no one had ever seen anything like it before. They had all the characteristics of the diseases they had been vaccinated against, the high fever, chills, pain, cramps, diarrhea, etc. of typhoid, and the pneumonia like lung and throat congestion of diphtheria and the vomiting, headache, weakness and misery of hepatitis from the jungle fever shots, and the outbreak of sores on the skin from the smallpox shots, along with paralysis from all the shots, etc.
The doctors were baffled, and claimed they didnt know what caused the strange and deadly disease, and they certainly had no cure. They should have known the underlying cause was the vaccinations, because the same thing happened to the soldiers after they had their shots at camp. The typhoid fever shots caused a worse form of the disease which they called para-typhoid. Then they tried to suppress the symptoms of that one with a stronger vaccine which caused a still more serious disease which killed and disabled a great many men. The combination of all the poison vaccines fermenting together in the body, caused such violent reactions that they could not cope with the situation. Disaster ran rampant in the camps. Some of the military hospitals were filled with nothing but paralyzed soldiers, and they were called war casualties, even before they left American soil. I talked to some of the survivors of that vaccine onslaught when they returned home after the war, and they told of the horrors, not of the war itself, and battles, but of the sickness at camp.
The doctors didnt want this massive vaccine disease to reflect on them, so they, agreed among themselves to call it Spanish Influenza. Spain was a far away place and some of the soldiers had been there, so the idea of calling it Spanish Influenza seemed to be a good way to lay the blame on someone else. The Spanish resented having us name the world scourge on them. They knew the flu didnt originate in their country.
20,000,000 died of that flu epidemic, worldwide, and it seemed to be almost universal or as far away as the vaccinations reached. Greece and a few other countries which did not accept the vaccines were the only ones which were not hit by the flu. Doesnt that prove something?
At home (in the U.S.) the situation was the same; the only ones who escaped the influenza were those who had refused the vaccinations. My family and 1 were among the few who persisted in refusing the high pressure sales propaganda ,and none of us had the flu not even a sniffle, in spite of the fact that it was all around us, and in the bitter cold of winter. Everyone seemed to have it. The whole town was down sick and dying. The hospitals were closed because the doctors and nurses were down with the flu. Everything was closed, schools, businesses, post office everything. No one was on the streets. It was like a ghost town. There were no doctors to care for the sick, so my parents went from house to house doing what they could to help the stricken in any way they could. They spent all day and part of the night for weeks, in the sick rooms, and came home only to eat and sleep. If germs or viruses, bacteria, or any other little organisms were the cause of that disease, they had plenty of opportunity to latch onto my parents and “lay them low” with the disease which had prostrated the world. But germs were not the cause of that or any other disease, so they didnt “catch” it. I have talked to a few other people since that time, who said they escaped the 1918 flu, so I asked if they had the shots, and in every case, they said they had never believed in shots and had never had any of them. Common sense tells us that all those toxic vaccines all mixed up together in people, could not help but cause extreme body-poisoning and poisoning of some kind or another is usually the cause of disease.
What do think of this info?
I think it’s a great big load of hooey.
Well, you asked.
Egad - what a load of hysterical propaganda. The entire medical profession, of the entire world, in concert with Big Pharma (such as it existed in 1918) conspired to cover-up their culpability in the deaths of tens of millions.
All this despite the rivalries, jealousies and competetiveness that characterized science and medicine then and now - everyone on board and not a peep to the contrary from anyone involved for almost 100 years?
I have to read up some on the pathological psychology of conspiracy theory - it must be fascinating.
I agree with lbb – at 08:41, except I think it is a great big *honking load of hooey.
Incredibly large, stinking, pile of hooey.
Roman, you’re our official Flu Wiki conspiracy theorist (that’s CT™, to distinguish from CT as in Connecticut)! ;-)
Where do you find this stuff? I think you just like being provocatavie.
Bizarro!
That is one WEIRD website!
Remember, and never forget, just having an MD after your name, does not guarantee ANYTHING except a that specific educational level was completed. It is not a measure of ethics, sanity, etc.
PS…Don’t believe everything you read on the internet! ;)
Don’t believe anything you read on the internet — without verification and second sourcing, that is. That’s my motto! :-)
First thread that I`ve read this AM. Thanks for the laughs!
Dem,
I heard an interview with the Dr. It seems “some” of her views are shared with “some” other health professions. She is a bit extreme; however, “some” of her remarks make sense. I encourage folks to check out her website. http://www.drcarley.com/ The debate about vaccines is not “hooey”. It is very much alive. There are professionals on each side. Vaccines are not “safe”. They can cause very, very, bad reactions. These reactions can last your entire life. I think it’s only fair the medical community comes clean and communicates the risk. What’s so wrong with that? Certainly not a conspiracy theory.
By the way, my North Korea concerns started months ago. Currently, they have threatened nuclear war and test fired six missiles. Lets see what happens over the next few weeks before we jump on the “Roman is a conspiracy theorists train”.
Sarge, I was a Sarge once. I got tired of the complete morons in charge. I learned a very valuable lesson. Rank does not equal intelligence.
Roman -
“Rank does not equal intelligence.” - Right you are.
However, I think I have to respectfully disagree with you about vaccines. There are of course risks associated with them. Some folks have very bad outcomes, as in the case of the Sabin oral polio vaccine. However, in the aggregate, I think it is very hard to argue that vaccines haven’t had a very salutary effect. I have a cousin, five years older than me, born and raised in the same zip code, who needs braces and a cane because of infantile paralysis (poliomyelitis). My mother caught polio as a child, but recovered completely. I never had to worry about it, because Salk and Sabin came along in the meantime.
Sarge, The medical community will acknowledge the obvious reactions to vaccines. What they will not do is recognize the chronic illness that follows some people all their lives. They diagnose this as something else. The fact is, they use toxins in the vaccine to create a strong immune response. Things like aluminum, monkey kidney, etc. The body’s immune system kicks in and creates antibodies. Then what? It just all goes away? That does not make sense to me. I was fortunate enough to teach autistic kids in Los Angeles for a couple years during the summer. I was a regular 5th grade teacher the rest of the year. I studied Autism. After reading volumes of text and having many discussions, I came to this conclusion. The medical community has some success with vaccines. However, they do not understand how they fully react with the human body. Chronic illness is not easily traced back to a vaccine and can go undetected for many years until it manifest itself into something obvious. Some of this information was available in the 1970’s Harris guide (medical reference). The information was removed from current issues. Why?
Why can’t the medical community have the decency to simply admit this and allow people to make a well informed choice? If you have more questions, do a google search. There are many websites with current information on this very real debate.
Roman:
The debate about vaccines is not “hooey”.
You didn’t post about “the debate about vaccines”. You posted text from an article that asserts that the 1918 Spanish Influenza pandemic was caused by vaccines. You asked what people think, presumably about what you posted, and I think those assertions are hooey.
If you wanted to open a debate about the validity/danger of vaccination in general, why didn’t you just do so? Probably because you knew that it would be out of scope for this wiki, no? There are places for that discussion, but I don’t think this is really one of them.
One large load of horse hooey. Roman the reason the information was removed is that is has been proven to be false. This debate has gone on for years. The studies have taken years to complete, they were long and extensive.Unfortunatly the parents of these kids do not want to accept the results. Why? Most of them have a financial intrest in being able to blame the vaccine makers. Denial is more than a river in Egypt.
lbb -
Sorry, but I may have pushed him off the rails with my post. Encourgaged his deliquency as it were.
N Korea has nothing to do with fllu, which is why we steer you away from N Korea, not because they’re good guys. You can’t win an argument about A by saying “but I was right about B”, even though B is a non-sequitor.
In my previous life in law enforcement, my colleagues and I got a lot of laughs out of these conspiracy types. Forty years after the fact we were still getting calls about the Kennedy assasination. Suggest those of you who think there is something to some of these go to the website snopes.com. This is one of the best at debunking or verifying some of these things. Any time am in receipt of one of these stories in my email I do so, and 99% are false. Turns out some of these rumors, for instance, ones that surfaced after 9/11, have been around for 50 years, just recycled to fit the present day. As someone who spent 40 years in the Federal bureaucracy, the idea that a large number of people could conspire to do something and then hide it stretches the imagination, but, if makes for wonderful plots in novels!
So I guess the millions that died in Africa, India, China, etc. in 1918 all had vaccines as well? Don’t think so. While I agree all vaccines carry some risk, you can not deny that they have wiped a whole host of deadly and not-so-deadly but awful diseases. Those diseases were less of a moving target (eg. polio) where as influenza is constantly evolving. Even if they could develop a H5N1 vaccine (quickly enough to save lives) I won’t be first in line to get it until I see proof it works and is safe. But if they can do that, I’ll gladly roll up my sleve.
Before we can get to the point of discussing the safety and efficacy of a vaccine, we have to have one to be point of the discussion. The sorts of manufacturing problems that can get in the way are described here: FDA warning letter to Sanofi-Pasteur
Sarge, You didn’t scare me away, I was setting up my tent at a campsite, headed back there now. Before I go, janetn, “Unfortunately the parents of these kids do not want to accept the results” Yeah right. If that helps you sleep at night, go for it, janet.
There is more info on the site then “1918″. Vaccines in general do relate to BF. They sure are spending a ton of money on “research”. Let’s see what they come up with. I’m sure they will encourage everyone to get one, possibly require it. Whether or not the technology is safe, matters to me. http://www.drcarley.com/
Dem, if North Korea does something really stupid. BF will become second fiddle. Information will dry up and we will be subjected to Montreme pontificating on nothing. This wiki will regurgitate prep item after prep item, while we wait to hear news about a pandemic. I’d say what they do is relevant.
Back to the mountains!!!
Roman:
I never researched how many vaccines were available in 1918, how they were made, or if they included adjuvants. I do know if you’re malnourished and weak from stomach conditions seen in war, then vaccines might make you even weaker. Multiple vaccines can make a person sick as in fever, fatigue, and loss of appetite as military I suspect you already know that. I’ve heard from family and friends that the yellow fever vaccine and typhoid are really bad—made them feel sick, but I’ve never taken them so I don’t know. I will watch how Sanofi-handles its contamination problems in the current seasonal vaccine. If they have to squirt in some drops of clorax (just kidding)they will probably have to reheat and resterilize multiple times, I didn’t take it last year because of the serratia conatamination which I think is worse than catching the flu. Contamination of any vaccine is a serious problem and as consumers we should demand sterile products!
Leo7, Currently, they are starting to experiment with DNA. In my opinion, they should figure out what is happening with their old method before they start down another, experimental, path.
Roman: If your looking for someones to blame for the flu blame the dinosaurs of which birds are a sub-species. That’s right Flu is T-Rex’s Gift to todays world. The Dinos revenge!
glennk,
“If your looking for someones to blame for the flu”
No blame. Just curious as to why I should shoot my body full of poison. Perhaps you should read the thread again. I understand it is a bit complex. Read it slowly. Good luck.
Rather condescending, aren’t we tonight?
Leo7-
Marcescens can march all over your body and set up housekeeping even if it doesn’t go acute immediately.
That latency and its previous usage to test bio-warfare concerns me.
NS1:
I have taken care of many ventilator patients growing serratia marcescens in their sputum. It has a very distinct smell. The idea it was in a vaccine that would be injected was way too much for me. Any yes the latency is a big issue. I didn’t know about its biowarfare usuage but it doesn’t surprise me. You sure can’t fight if it’s in your lungs.
Roman:
No blame. Just curious as to why I should shoot my body full of poison.
Using a normal person’s definition of “poison”, you shouldn’t. Using the definition that you’ve humpty-dumptied…well, you still shouldn’t. Just go back to the mountains.
If all you’re going to do is say, “Is too!” anytime someone tries to tell you that a flu vaccine is not poison, there’s nothing that can be said to you. Other people make other choices. Other people get vaccinated when it makes sense to do so. Would I take some experimental possibly-matching-a-nasty-thing-that-H5N1-might-turn-into vaccine? Hell no, there’s no need to. But, OTOH, I got a bunch of vaccines — typhoid, polio booster, hep A, already had hep B, decided to skip rabies — when I was going on a backcountry trip in a country where all of those diseases were active or had been within the past few years. At the point where a high-mortality flu is doing a Number Six on the population, if there’s a vaccine to be had, I’ll be in line for your dose of that “poison”.
“Would I take some experimental possibly-matching-a-nasty-thing-that-H5N1-might-turn-into vaccine? Hell no,”
Looks like you figured out the thread, nice work llb.
“I got a bunch of vaccines — typhoid, polio booster, hep A, already had hep B, decided to skip rabies” Good for you,llb.
That’s neat.
“If all you’re going to do is say, “Is too!”
That’s a good one! Have a great night, llb.
bump for BB.
Hey guys this might be old news to some of you but I’ve provided a link about Merck dumping cyanide that was supposed to be used in some of its vaccines and then they decided against continuted use of it. So to get rid of it they dumped it and polluted the water system near West Point last month. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve taken vaccines but we are being smothered by vaccine development. These people who dumped are the same people you are placing your health trust in. My bottom line-these companies are suppossed to have procedures for this type of disposal and well, they got caught cause the public water is tested. The question of vaccine safety remains because of screwups like this. You are going to an article in drug researcher at http://tinyurl.com/z7n27
I am more concerned with the failure rate. It hit home when my granddaughter came down with mumps this last spring. Of course she was fully vaccinated and at only four years old, five now it is not as if the vaccine wore off. Also, it took 3 vaccinations against rubella before I had any antibodies—by blood test—. After second shot, I thought the blood test must be mistaken—had another blood test—still negative for antibodies, so after son was born Dr. had another shot ordered before discharge from hospital. Finaly “it took”. Had antibodies after third shot. Don’t have a false sense of security just because vaccinated.
P. S I think vaccinations have some risk—low I will get any vaccine offered.
“P. S I think vaccinations have some risk—low I will get any vaccine offered.
Unfortunately, I think another risk, chronic illness, is emerging. There is plenty to post on this. However, I’d prefer if folks would just do a google, “danger vaccine” and explore it yourself. I’m not looking for a fight here.
Leo7, I agree. All their choices should be analyzed before injecting their product into your bloodstream.
I am open minded. I will research the latest on vaccine danger. And failure rate. Thanks.
Why talk about the risk of vaccinations in general when the far riskier option is just subjecting yourself to a stay in any hospital? You have a more than 25 per cent chance of picking up some kind of infection in the hospital, and generally those infections are highly-resistant to antibiotics. MRSA was spawned in hospitals and now it is running through the community. So you have to consider relative risk when thinking about all of these health ventures.
Aside from being great fix-it shops for burn victims and car-wreck survivors hospitals seem to me to be vast torture chambers that prolong survival by a few months or years.
If you have seen one-fourth of your community die from panflu, you will be lining your kids up for the vaccine.
“If you have seen one-fourth of your community die from panflu, you will be lining your kids up for the vaccine.”
No, I will not. I will provide other treatments. The Pharmaceutical Industry has lost my trust. How could I trust them with the health of my child? Don’t worry, MM, I have a plan. A plan I believe in.
I think vaccines have done a LOT of good for the human race as a whole. Admittedly, it has done harm for some individuals. I will get the vaccine for my kids. We will be near the end of the line. After I can no longer sip and can not isolate any longer. I don’t want my previous point to be lost. All people I have ever talked to think that a shot renders them safe from the virus that it is meant for. It does not. Don’t line your kids up for a shot and then take them to the grocery store or movies during pandemic thinking they are 100% immune to bf. It is added protection when people think the bf is over..in case it isn,t..but it is not 100% protection.
prepmaniac, I understand your point. I just wish the vaccine makers would be honest about the very serious long term side effects. They are hard to spot and can fall off the radar easily. I believe my family can survive this pandemic using other treatments and following a flexible pandemic plan. Once you get injected with a vaccine, you are at the mercy of the ingredients. These will most likely be a mystery. In order to allow my family to be subjected to this, I would need to have a certain level of trust. Because of the the Pharmaceutical Industry’s past and current conduct, that trust does not exist. “shot renders them safe from the virus that it is meant for. It does not” That is correct. In Addition, you will be left with the material used in the vaccine. It will be in your body and can cause serious damage. Like I said before, the .01% side effect rate often quoted, does not take into account chronic illness. That .01% is wrong and extremely misleading.
Roman:
If the pharmaceutical Industry doesn’t take that into account, it’s probably because — like yourself — they have no evidence supporting such a claim. The ingredients of a virus will be mostly a mystery as well, so (especially for those of us already struggling with chronic illness) the risk of potential long-term side-effects from a vaccine have to be balanced against the guaranteed long-term side-effects of dying from influenza.
Roman. I come at this issue from a variety of perspectives. As a veterinarian I have seen more than one case where vaccines caused the diseases they were attempting to prevent (vaccines although released with full testing were later removed from the market…modified live vaccines.
I have had two serious vaccines reactions, the first to an experimental human diploid rabies vaccine almost killed me (vaccine was not released to the marketplace due to adverse reactions) and the second to Whooping cough vaccine that put me in bed for ten days (I had had whooping cough and was out of school for four months at the time of natural infection).
I agree with some of your comments. My family will not be recieving experimental vaccines for which liability has been removed for the providers. It is another matter if the vaccine has been fully tested but given my past experience, I would have to see supporting data first.
However, we can’t paint all vaccines with the same paintbrush. Vaccinations along with the development of antibiotics have to be the two most important medical developments of all time.
Many vaccines (ex. polio) have been of great benefit to us and our children. Even though I had some concerns, my daughter had all required vaccines and did not have any of the reactions that I have in the past.
Thanks for raising the issue and continuing to keep it front and center. These are essential debates. You are standing to make sure that everyone is fully informed before recieving the vaccine and you could do no greater service. Thanks again
“If the pharmaceutical Industry doesn’t take that into account, it’s probably because — like yourself — they have no evidence supporting such a claim.”
There is evidence. There is certainly very compelling testimony from parents who witnessed a drastic change in their child’s health after vaccinations. Thousands of stories. Unfortunately, the majority of the “research” available is bought and paid for by the pharmaceutical industry. I have used other sources I find credible and have spent time with families affected by vaccines. Sorry, but I’m not going to trust peer reviewed research papers, when the “peers” are customers of the pharmaceutical industry. I’ll stick with professionals who are neutral. That seems like an intelligent choice.
“Vaccinations along with the development of antibiotics have to be the two most important medical developments of all time.”
TomDVM, I’m with you. It is getting a little weird. People are desperate. Billions are being spent on a vaccine. It seems to be moving way to fast. As far as I’m concerned there are too many unanswered questions surrounding vaccines. Just think what the result could be if they screw it up and infect millions of people. Chronic illness can manifest itself into a variety of diseases. If they start using DNA, it may infect future generations. My gut tells me the technology is flawed. The consequences of that failure are just being “officially” discovered.
Let me take a minute and thank the fluwiki mods and patrons. I have a little fun here once and awhile. North Korea, etc. I really do value this place. I tried to have a conversation about vaccines on another site that sounds like “glue crackers”. It ended with a fella calling himself St. Michael, blaming the vaccine shortage in America on lawyers and the unsuspecting parents of autistic kids. They also would remove my posts, replace them, etc. I believe this individual was a mod or something. I left one last post and split. Not a very productive experience and seemed more like a sorority then a place for information. Just my opinion. Thanks again.
“As far as I’m concerned there are too many unanswered questions surrounding vaccines.”
Roman. I agree with most of your concerns about H5N1 but if you take the argument and then generalize about all vaccines, your credibility will slip and that would be a shame.
I could list many more vaccines that decrease the incidence of disease without serious side-effects than those that have caused serious problems.
There are some components in vaccines that are problematic…for instance my reaction to the rabies vaccine was from the carrier component and not the antigen…for want of a better word, there was a purity problem.
There are problems with adjuvants as well…but it should be remembered that most of our generation have mouths full of mercury fillings and we drink a lot of coffee and pop that will cause the ingestion of leachates over long periods of time.
My suggestion would be not to say that all vaccines are bad because that is clearly not the case…and like I said before, in spite of the fact that vaccines almost killed me twice.
As you have correctly stated, we have major production and ethical questions with H5N1 vaccines. Remove the ethics and put profit in the mix…we have even bigger problems…
…I have been repeatedly told how technologically advanced we are today over the past and specifically over 1918. Have you ever wondered how Saulks(sp) polio vaccine came to market so quickly when there were outbreaks all over North America. Connaught Laboratories, I believe a publically owned company produced the vaccine in large batches. Connaught’s only concern I believe was public benefit…
…now tell me again why they weren’t thousands of times wiser and more technically sound medically than we are today?
Tom,
“…now tell me again why they weren’t thousands of times wiser and more technically sound medically than we are today?”
I don’t think people today are any worse nor any better than previous generations. I see a lot of greedy unethical behavior, but I also see a lot of people genuinely putting themselves out there for the common good. And vaccines is the same as anything else in life: we need to scrutinize and question everything, but we also need to judge fairly, otherwise we will be discouraging the very people who want to make this world a better place. If we assume (just for arguments sakes) that all vaccine companies, their representatives, and their employees, are evil, then we will create exactly that situation by discouraging good people from joining the industry.
annon 22. If I left the impression that “all vaccine companies, their representatives, and their employees, are evil”…it was not my intention.
But good people within companies can be pushed to do unethical things when reasonable constraints including proper field testing and corporate liability are removed.
The point of my last statement that you quoted…was that in my opinion, humanity was in a better position to react forty or fifty or one hundred years ago then we are today….I salute the United Nations, the World Health Organization…and Globalization!!
Sorry, Connaught Laboratories fulfilled a remarkable achievement to humanity without the involvement of the United Nations or the World Health Oraganization.
They fulfilled their responsibilities because at every level involved their only motivation was the ‘courage of their convictions’.
I frankly do not see that today.
Tom, sorry, I wasn’t suggesting anything of the sort, it was more figure of speech.
But I do still think that we are no worse than 50 years ago. Despite my cynicism about international affairs, I still think we averted a lot of disasters and solved a lot of problems. The fact that the Cold War ended as a bit of a damp squid :-) is more due to the efforts of countless people in many countries than to luck or altruism of the leaders.
annon 22.
I knew many post-war physicians.
I respectfully disagree with you as I have pointed out but fervently hope that you are right and many of the conclusions I have come to over the past twenty-four months are wrong…
…One thing for sure, I don’t think we are going to have to wait to long to find out…one way or another!!
Tom,
different temperaments, that’s what it is. :-)
annon 22. I think you agree with me.
Sorry, forgot the /:0)
“but if you take the argument and then generalize about all vaccines, your credibility will slip and that would be a shame.”
That’s true. I guess my main concern is honesty. If they allow themselves to be deceptive about the side effects of some vaccines. How can I be certain they are being honest about others? How can I trust their research? I’m not naming specific companies. Realistically, the actions of a few and the silence of others, leaves me no choice but to suspect them all. Truthfully, I want to believe in them. I want to protect my family.
“They fulfilled their responsibilities because at every level involved their only motivation was the ‘courage of their convictions’.”
Yes, I agree. I recently read this. I think it can also apply,
The true warrior knows the meaning of loyalty. The true warrior knows the meaning of honor. And the true warrior knows where loyalty ends and honor begins.
Warriors are not only found on battlefields. I pray some in this field are watching over us.
Roman. I completely agree with your post above…and I agree with your battlefield analogy at the bottom.
Just keep your arguement where possible centered on H5N1 vaccine because you are right to stand your ground on that foundation…and don’t let the focus slip to other vaccines because it will be used to deflect the real issue…and Thanks Again for the continuing effort.
Roman:
How many thousands? I mean, you don’t make any specific reference to your sources, but when the CDC addresses side-effects, we get actual numbers. It looks like this:
“In these combined studies, approximately 28,000 doses of the vaccine were administered to approximately 20,000 subjects. A subset of these trials were randomized, placebo-controlled studies in which an estimated 4,000 healthy children aged 5-−17 years and 2,000 healthy adults aged 18-−49 years were vaccinated.”
You know, there are thousands of stories about bigfoot too, and UFOs. There is even testimony (though perhaps not everyone would agree as to the “compelling” part) from those who claim to have been abducted and subjected to strange procedures.
Guess there’s a reason why the “testimonial” is considered worthless as evidence, eh?
Is there compelling testimony from parents who didn’t witness such changes? What’s that? The folks who compiled these testimonials didn’t include any indicating favorable results? Seems like I remember a name for that sort of practice… Oh yeah. It’s called “cherry-picking”.
And who pays for the compilation of “testimonials”? I’m betting it’s tort lawyers.
Listen this is a needed discussion and I’m glad it’s happening. The polio vaccine given out for an 8 year period in the late fifites and early sixities contained a contamination that means a good percentage of those who got it are getting cancer NOW. Especially lymphomas. It’s all over the medical literature its no secret for heavens sake. Yes, you can find people desperately trying to prove no link and this is why there is less trust(it’s going down exactly like the autism argument). Mistakes have happened, do happen and will probably keep happening. Query SV40 or follow this trial at http://tinyurl.com/lj5gs. Locate the 1997 article in Nature that would clarify things if you’re curious.
Racter-I enjoy your posts but the problems with the statistics quoted by the CDC is this-side effects from vaccines aren’t required reporting, its voluntary. Millions of vaccines given over many years and very few reports. TPTB say that establishes safety except the reporting procedure is lax and not followed up on (FDA). The side effects you mention are from a clinical trial where reporting is mandated. In the public sphere it’s not required and there is no correlation at one year, five years etc. (correlations could be neurological or developmental for example.) I personaly felt hoaxed when I found that out. I just assumed the doctors reported problems, they didn’t, it’s not required and there are no penalties for failure to report. Also, the number of vaccines and vaccine updates for kids more than doubled since 1985. Lot’s of folks have noticed less autism seen in children before that cutoff year. The theory that there’s just better diagnosis makes me laugh because these kids are everywhere and school systems know it without hard research to back it up. Parents who thought their doctors called in the problems, found out they didn’t and they have testified before congress about it. I don’t know if vaccines cause autism but until reporting of reactions is required every single time we won’t ever know. We’ve gotten a heads up-maybe its vaccines, maybe it’s not, but we should all agree it bears as much legitimate research as they do for new vaccines. FDA and CDC seem reluctant to do this and I don’t understand it. If a problem exists in the public health, lets fix it!
Mom 11 or Green Mom (one of the moms) on this site took part in a flu vaccine clinical trial. She stated she was monitored closely for a few weeks. When she did call about problems she experienced after it was over she was told the time frame for having a problem from the vaccine had passed. Oh really? How did they know? This was for H5N1 BTW. Less than a year had passed. HOw long should a reporting time frame be? The protocol says we will do XYZ for three months and well, everything later is not taken into the safety data record that is published. Now this was one study and probably a dose for titer study. Maybe side effects will be done in another study. I certainly hope so, but for stats to mean anything a large number of people out of the clinical trials stages must take it and side effects should be required in VAVers before we’re told its safe. Otherwise they should call it an experimental vaccine that’s optional.
Another example of non reporting of potential side effects of a current vaccine off the top of my head. All newborns are given Hep B before discharge. And, it doesn’t matter if your baby wieghts five pounds or ten pounds they get it. If there is a symptom who do the parents report it to? The hospital doesn’t do follow up or report for discharged patients. And if the pediatrician doesn’t give it, are they resonsible or required to report? Should the frantic, new, non medical parents be expected to report? Will such a report by parents be investigated by someone? Right now-NO. I think giving Hep B to non risk babies of non risk parents is pure total BS. An example of a big time screw up.
That said, I have taken vaccines, but now the consumers (includes me) need proof that safety is at the core and not “procedure.” I hope like the rest of you that a vaccine becomes available for H5N1. I expect it to be sterile and not contaminated. If there isn’t time for safety testing I expect it to be labelled experimental. It should also mean no one should require me to take it, because they honestly do not know what the adverse events will be. I believe those are my rights as a health care consumer.
Leo7:
I was among those vaccinated during that time. No cancer so far. (Just thought I’d add my testimonial). I’m afraid I’m unable to make the connection between contaminated polio vaccine and cancer. Just what (for heaven’s sake) was the vaccine supposed to have been contaminated with? (I though the issue was just live vaccine). “The medical literature” is a pretty big target; can you narrow it down a little?
“you can find people desperately trying to prove no link and this is why there is less trust”
I guess I’m just one of those Pollyannas who believe that every once in a while, research is actually performed by people genuinely interested in learning the truth one way or another.
“Mistakes have happened, do happen and will probably keep happening.”
We sure as heck know a lot more than we did fifty years ago. Would you rather take your chances with Polio, or SmallPox, or panflu?
“the problems with the statistics quoted by the CDC is this-side effects from vaccines aren’t required reporting, its voluntary.”
I don’t understand how that’s a problem for the studies referenced in the CDC link.
“If a problem exists in the public health, lets fix it!”
Here’s another CDC link, on the Vaccine approval process. Do you have any specific suggestions as to how that might be improved, or are your concerns mainly limited to the voluntary nature of post-marketing reporting?
“If there is a symptom who do the parents report it to?”
Their attorneys.
Why not simply require that the vaccine first be tested on the execs and family members of the company that developed it?
“We sure as heck know a lot more than we did fifty years ago. Would you rather take your chances with Polio, or SmallPox, or panflu?”
Your right, we do/did. Why was this information removed from current issues?
“As stated in Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine , 6th edition, p. 943: “RARELY IS PREVENTION OF INFECTION PER SE CONSIDERED TO BE AN IMPORTANT GOAL OF VACCINATION. In fact, asymptomatic infection after vaccination can serve to enhance and prolong the immune response.” Of course, if the immune response has been overwhelmed or corrupted, the “asymptomatic infection” will become a CHRONIC DISEASE. In fact, on the same page of Harrison’s, in the following paragraph, it states the following:
“PERSISTENCE AND LATENCY. Many viruses persist in host tissues for months or years without causing overt disease. A FLARE-UP OF THESE LATENT INFECTIONS MAY BE INDUCED BY TRAUMA, INTERCURRENT DISEASE, DECLINE IN ANTIBODY TITERS, OR UNKNOWN STIMULI. Experiments with tissue cultures and laboratory animals reveal that persistence of virus in tissue results from an interplay of various factors peculiar to each virus and its host. LATENCY IS PROMOTED BY THE PRESENCE OF ANTIBODY OR OTHER VIRAL INHIBITORS THAT PREVENT EXTENSIVE CELL-TO-CELL SPREAD OF VIRUS. IF ANTIBODY IS WITHDRAWN, VIRAL MULTIPLICATION OFTEN RESUMES, WITH CONCOMITANT CELLULAR NECROSIS.”
In the same (6th) Edition of Harrison’s Principles of Internal Medicine , it is stated on page 975 in regards to the poliomyelitis vaccine: “Vaccine virus multiplies in the intestinal tract and remains at this site. LIVE VACCINE VIRUS SPREADS AND INFECTS CONTACTS OF VACCINATED INDIVIDUALS. This type of immunization in the presence of epidemic poliomyelitis may lead to REPLACEMENT OF THE “WILD” PARALYTOGENIC STRAIN BY THE ONE IN THE VACCINE…..” In direct contradiction to this statement, the 1/1/2000 Vaccine Information statement put out by the U.S. Department of Health & Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention National Immunization Program states that the “OPV (Oral Polio Vaccine) is better at keeping the disease from spreading to other people. However, it does state in this document that “OPV actually causes polio”.”
Racter, I’m sure this topic is sensitive to many health professionals. Most people don’t want to injure children. However, there comes a time to do the right thing and stop hiding behind statements like this “You know, there are thousands of stories about bigfoot too, and UFOs”. Fortunately, the internet has provided individuals a way to connect and share their stories. There are several support groups for parents whose children have been damaged by some vaccines. I had the pleasure of working with a group in Los Angeles and teaching their children. Perhaps you should take the time to meet them and their children before you place their stories in the same catergory as Bigfoot.
Leo 7, Excellent post, thank you.
Roman:
I’m personally very sensitive to this topic, as I feel that it is one place where other people’s ignorance is a direct threat to my safety, and that of my loved ones. \\Herd immunity is a collective responsibility.
“there comes a time to do the right thing and stop hiding behind statements like this “You know, there are thousands of stories about bigfoot too, and UFOs.””
There comes a time to learn what does and does not constitute evidence (and what does and does not constitute “hiding”).
“Fortunately, the internet has provided individuals a way to connect and share their stories.”
Hasn’t it? And some of the stories… WOW!
“There are several support groups for parents whose children have been damaged by some vaccines.”
And here is a list of no less than FIFTEEN support groups for people who have been abducted by aliens. Does the existence of those groups stand as evidence for the existence of aliens?
“I had the pleasure of working with a group in Los Angeles and teaching their children. Perhaps you should take the time to meet them and their children before you place their stories in the same catergory as Bigfoot.”
You seem to be suggesting that only those who have had personal contact with these individuals are capable of compassion for them (which, frankly, I resent), and that the best way to express our compassion for suffering people is to accept their explanations (and those of the flocks of attorneys invariably circling the skies overhead, let’s remember) as to the causes of their problems. But if — as studies like this one indicate — the causes of those problems were something other than vaccines, then our failure to correctly identify those causes will only contribute to further suffering, starting with those unvaccinated who will succumb to diseases we do know the causes of with certainty.
“(and those of the flocks of attorneys invariably circling the skies overhead,”
Wow, now that’s a great story!!!! How many attorneys are involved in your conspiracy theory? Did they hypnotize the parents or use some kind of mind altering drug? Perhaps some are just plain lying? How did the attorneys get taken seriously with only parent testimonies as evidence? Are there judges in on the “flock of attorneys” conspiracy? Are you a Hitchcock fan? Very clever. I think you may have something here, Racter. You need a strong protagonist. How about Merck? http://www.mercola.com/2005/feb/23/merck_coverups.htm
No, wouldn’t work. You already have the antagonist. I think Kevin Spacey should play the lead attorney. I thought he was great in Superman. I’ve made myself pretty clear. Have a great life, racter. If you hurry, you can still make Sundance in September.
One more thought and I’m really done. I hope we are having a little fun now.
Don’t reinvent the wheel. Cast that crazy bunch of attorneys that are currently staring in the Vioxx movie. Those guys actually had clients play dead. Is that method acting or what? If want to go old school, hire the Tobacco flock. They really pulled one over on the poor Tobacco Industry. Not only did they steal their money, they made them put labels on the cigarette packages. That’s just wrong! Just a thought.
Psst to all but Roman As a former teacher, I was taught to ignore this type of attention grabbing behavior and it hopefully will go away.
annon, I’m having fun, sister. It’s allowed once and awhile. Peace.
Vaccines prevent certain diseases. Vaccines might cause other problems in some people. I don’t know what is the problem with believing both of these are true. It happens a lot that there is some unscientific observation and initially science refutes it but eventually science confirms it. Just because science has not confirmed the link between vaccines and autism or whatever, that does not mean the link is not there.
Moms always said “Don’t got out into the cold all wet! You’ll catch a cold.” Science said “Cold and wet doesn’t cause a cold. A virus causes a cold.” More recent research confirms that cold and wet lowers your ability to fight off a cold virus and facilitates the cold virus catching hold of you. So Mom was kind of right and science was kind of right.
People need to keep an open mind.
anonymous,
That’s true. I guess my main concern is honesty. If they allow themselves to be deceptive about the side effects of some vaccines. How can I be certain they are being honest about others? How can I trust their research? I’m not naming specific companies. Realistically, the actions of a few and the silence of others, leaves me no choice but to suspect them all. Truthfully, I want to believe in them. I want to protect my family.
I am all for fun.. have fun camping
Roman:
I’d say your main concern is evaluating sources of information, and honesty (quite reasonably) is one of the criteria you use — and in attempting to make good guesses about that, you (again quite reasonably) consider possible motives. My mention of the circling attorneys is intended to point out that big pharma aren’t the only ones with a dog in this fight.
We’ve been through this a couple times. I am satisfied with my sources. I find them very credible. My main concern IS honesty. Now, I pray to the mod god pogge to close this thread. By the way, I think you should have Toby McGuire play your lead role. The public will have a hard time not believing him. He may not take the role though. He’s a pretty smart guy and a liberal.
Whether Pogge closes the thread or not. I would like to thank everyone who participated and particularly Racter and Roman for an excellent overview of both sides of the argument.
Tom DVM, Thanks for keeping it on track. Have a great night.
Actually bumped. Roman---excellent arguments. Thank you…
Closed to maintain Forum speed.