Forum: Solar and Generators and Alternate Power for Dummies Part 8

More power, Scotty! Continued from here

anonymous – at 11:47

I’d like to offer the following suggestion for connecting solar panels to a charge controller. You will need one 10-foot 12 gauge outdoor 3-prong extension cord per 50-watt panel, one 3-prong multiple outlet if you have more than one panel, and one more cord to bring the power from the panels to the charge controller. For each extension cord, cut it more or less in half, and crimp the appropriate lug connector onto the white and black leads, leaving the ground lead unconnected (bend over and tape down with electrical tape). Then put the lugs on the panels, white negative and black positive, and attach the lugs on the panels. Now you have an idiot-proof way of quickly plugging together the system, and getting it to the charge controller. Plugging in more panels is as simple as using the multiple triple outlet connector. Watch and measure polarity carefully, and connect the lugs to the charge controller first, before plugging in panels.

Eccles – at 13:54

Great Idea!
There are two things tow watch out for. The first is to make sure that the charge controller is connected to the batteries first to prevent damage or problems with the controller. the othe thing is that the extension cords that you use MUST be 12 Gauge. Anything lighter and you will be wasting a portion of your energy just heating up the wires.

Inverters-R-Us (honestly!) is having a sale on Aims inverters and there is free shipping on units 1000W and up. I just bought this one as a backup. I have no affiliation with either company with the exception that both have treated me very well.

Thanks Kim and Will for the links! Kim, I think those dc snap fans are what I am looking for—

Will- Thanks for the link- I actually got started on this little endeavor by seeing the heatgrabber off of mother earth news and had found that link with some of the other pages on it— My goal this fall is to build the passive solar heater to specs on an old doorway I have in my kitchen (that is now boarded up) and I wanted to cut the holes for the passive vents to be the same size as for a solar powered fan eventually— though I may find i won’t need a fan.

I found a place online that sells these space heaters for about 1500.00 but I think I can approximate btu’s with various things around my house and maybe another 50–100.00… I guess we’ll see how it goes—

Heating is one of my big concerns. We have an oil based furnace which of course needs electric to run and though we can store 30–40 gallons of kerosene for the backup kerosene heater, that isn’t going to get us through 3–4 months of winter if the grid fails. So, that’s why I got interested in the passive solar heaters.

Thanks again Kim and Will for sending me those links! I’ll keep you all updated!

bump

Over the vacation I bought a hand-cranck light which serves as a cell-phone recharger too.

We need to look into simple doable “howtos” for DIY things - a printable booklet for communities would be a great tool to have and Humankind needs it anyway!

Folks at solarcooking.org do have that sort of stuff. Dunno about windmills.

I’ve given up on my brilliant idea about the portable ice-maker, but when I was looking at one in a store, the salesman told me something that I’d like to ask y’all about. On the little metal label on the back, it said it was 115 volts and 2.7 amps, and it said Input watts = 118 (or 180, I can’t remember). The salesman said the 118 is the normal running watts, and the advertised watts of 300 is for the start-up surge. Does that sound right? He also said the compressor in the ice-maker doesn’t like generators, whether gas or solar, and it wouldn’t last very long used that way. Does that sound right? Thanks for helping the electrically impaired…

Eastern Shore Prepper:. passive solar heather are the simplest solar systems to build. You may say it about quantity not quality of technolygy. So materials are cheap. (vents, plastic greenhouse plates, stones/sand/water containers etc.) I will recomend the books by Bruce Anderson, “solar energy:fundamentals in building design, is the sourse for all knowledge. Its writen in the 70s,but many new materials like Polycarbonat plates have made hees plans even simpler and cheaper since then. Also simple and cheap thermostat and electric timers are new resoures that makes it cheaper and esayer to construckt a simple and well function heath system that anyone can build whitout innvolving waterpipe, pressuer etc that makes it more complicated.

My easy favourit plan is the simple “wintergarden “ on the south wall. Whith some vents and black concrete, (you mix black or dark red pigment into the concret for the isolated (roockwool) floor, and maybe some “bassins” to place plants in. A dark wall and two vents that sirculates the hot air into your house (and opposiste if you want cooling) is the simple start. And you will also get a greenhouse with all the benefits, and a nice place to stay on moscito evening or in the winter when beeing realy outdoors are to cold :)

next step would be to store the hot air, preferbaly in the basement.. on a sand/water /stone magasine (water is best). Passive heatning is about using the house itself as the solar system. Planting “crawl plants” to cower to hot summer walls, that drops their leaves when autum comes and you need more heath etc..

http://tinyurl.com/gqjzc

dbg - That sounds about right for the explanation of the power plate. One would anticipate the startup surge being about triple the running power.

The salesman also is mostly correct about many motorized devices not particularly liking generators or inverters. There is one exception though. If one uses a “Pure Sine Wave” inverter, then the motor should be happy.

Do not be fooled by the name they are putting on the cheap inverters now, which is “Modified Sine Wave”. For this name, replace the word modified with “Not A” and you learn the truth of the matter. A modified sine wave inverter is nothing like a pure sine wave inverter.

Here is a link to let you see the difference in waveform:

Eccles – at 12:14 Hi, A question for you that I may use to start a new thread…If I have an unlimited amount of potential energy available i.e. I live on a cliff face with lots of rocks. How can I devise a method for the generation of electricity from a controlled fall of rocks…is this practical? What is the ideal weight to lower? What speed to lower? What conversion mechanism…spinning fly wheel etc. to generate electical needs for one house?

Eccles and or Will:

I’d be interested in your assessment of the relative merits of the AIMs 5000 W inverter at $500 vs the xantrex 5548 pure sine wave at $2500. Clearly, the pure sine wave is more efficient than the multistep MSW of the Aims; literature I have seen is that the difference is around 15% or so. I have also considered using several smaller (1800W) inverters ILO a single big one, since I will have a 15 KW diesel for big loads. Thoughts/recommendations?

Eccles – at 12:14

All is made clear - thanks. Is there any way to know (other than reading the power plate) whether the watts they’re advertising is the running power or startup surge? And should all electrical thingies (pardon my technical language) have Input watts on the power plate?

Hi after what seems like a long time - just wondering if there’s a wikipage with links for doityourselvers.

Just like Eccles wrote the pages for sequential preparedness (levels zero to a lot), I think the same could be done specifically with electricity in mind? I mean, starting from batteries for the cell-phone to how to keep the freezer running to longer term stuff.

Of course, in some places cooking can go solar, so it’s a matter of focusing on “What to do about things that are mostly electric now”.

And maybe there are things that can be done by hobbyist groups (maybe magazines printing our list of links and recomendations?), hobbyist networks, and the like. You know, science fiction is a way for “incredible ideas” to enter our minds. A “what if” aproach.

(Maybe that page does exist already.)

A “what if” aproach that doesn’t even try to challenge denial.

That’s what I intended to write.

You know, techies (many of my friends are) sometimes have a way of looking at reality in a “this is a possibility and I’m emotionally not attached” kind of way.

Fear may not be the only way to go.

Dude, I’ll jump in with a thought;

Microhydro storage is one solution, where you have a pond at the highest level and a pond at the lowest. Water can be pumped up from the lowest one to the highest one to store energy. When you need the energy, open the valve that releases water down through a micro turbine (Pelton wheel preferable) to extract the stored energy. Note: this is not suitable for instantaneous switchover, as it will take some seconds for the water to reach the turbine and get it up to generating speed.

• http://www.matrixenergy.ca/ap/rp_micro_1.htm

If you had a running stream from the high point, then you could simply go with micro hydro, which is much simpler, steady, and reliable.

• http://microhydropower.net/index.php

You could create an ‘elevator’ energy storage system with rocks, but I’ll let Eccles respond to that one.

LMW (I was at Bull Run last weekend, btw);

 - AIMs 5000 W inverter vs. Xantrex 5548 inverter

AIM 5000 W inverter

First note that there is no mention of gridtie, which invariably means it does not have such a capability. If you can’t gridtie, you can’t netmeter, which makes a big difference on one’s monthly electric bill. It also means simply continuity of operation, instead of going to the switch panel and throwing the switch if you get an interruption of power.

Second note that it is modified sine (with no reference to number of steps, so must assume 1). It mentions phase correction, though provides no information on performance characteristics. From windsun.com, “Appliances that use electronics to control temperature or timers may have problems with modified sine waves. This includes anything - tool or appliance - that is variable speed, bread makers, some microwaves, some washers and dryers that use electronic timing for cycling. Most computers, TV’s and similar items will have no problem. Anything with a motor will use about 20% more power with a modified sine wave than with a true sine wave.”

Xantrex 5548

Note that the Xantrex is not a pure sine wave inverter, but uses 34 to 52 steps depending on monitored parameters.

My experience with a Xantrex 4048 purchased in 1999 (originally Trace) was neutral, as I ran into the following issues, which may or may not have been fixed in the last few years;

• AGM batteries: The Xantrex preferred to float continuously, whereas AGMs last much longer if they are refreshed periodically (even as long as once a month). A number of other customers griped about this.
• Battery emergency overcharge cutoff: If the grid goes down, the batteries have to be protected from overcharging. With the Xantrex, that meant using one of the builtin programmable relays to actuate a mercury filled solenoid switch? when the grid was up. This required drawing 50 watts at all times 24×7, a high parasitic load. There might be lower wattage solutions on the market now, though I haven’t any recommendations.
• Non PWM charger: The built in charger, while 3 stage, was not PMW, an inconvenience for flooded lead acid battery owners as it requires more frequent equalization.
• Non MPPT charger: I was lucky to capture 1.40 kW from my 2 kW array. With an MPPT charger now, I usually achieve 1.70 or more.

When a lightning hit to my electric fence raced back through my house wiring and blew out the inverter, I choose to go with an Outback 3648, which has none of the above limitations, and I would highly recommend it.

throwing rocks down to create energy.. hmmmm. if you have a unlimited supply of rope it could be done, but you actualy have to imagine all the sveat of handling this, and muscle power is nothing else than energy.. so I will add in.- go for water energy :) fluids have their very clear advantages, it runs in pipes..

Lowe’s advertised a new 4″x4″ solar postcap light. Has 2 batteries vs the typical one battery which results in longer lighting power. They would sit on the post of a porch and light up at night, and I coulg bring them inside. Hopet they have a switch on them.

2 LED bulbs and a reflective panel makes the solare light 4 x brighter than others on the market.

$22.97 Any comments on how much light this would give. I am not into the big solar power projects, but just wanted some light for the evening when the batteries all died.

dbg- Not all data panels are necessarily accurate, necessarily honest, or necessarily tell the whole story. Basically, you need to dig a little into the device performance and requirements (use the web) to try to get the answer you need.

Dude- The rock elevator aounds like that old construction accident/bricklayer in a barrel story. I suspect that it could be done using the correct reduction gearing and a DC motor as a generator. But then you would need a DC to DC converter for the down-leg, and correct solar power for the up leg. Unless you were cranking the rocks back to the top using the “Armstrong” method. Then lots of luck.

Will - Thaniks for leaving me the EASY answer

NJ Jeeper - I have a set of single LED solar slights that use 2 NiCd cells, and work very well in a soffet fixture as an area light. I’ll betcha that the porchlight doesn’t have a switch. My best advice is buy it and see.

Lugon - It might be a good idea for a bunch of us to try to make the kind of Wikie page you suggest. It is just that once you get past the basic concepts, most answers veer off into custom problems/solutions.

Dude-

Here is a link to the stories of what could happen to you and your rocks:

Bricklayer/workman and barrel of tools/rocks story

Eccles and Will I thank you for the references and the humor - I love it. It is so nice that someone finally treats me with the respect I deserve…grin. I will read/study all and get back to you with a refinement of my idea of throwing myself and my rocks over a cliff due to panflu.

Will-

Thanks for the tip. FYI, the Aims claims to have multistep output similar to the Xantrex. I will check out the outback inverters; I had not heard of them before.

Eccles, consider a first draft done as soon as I get to read all the previous parts of this thread. I just trained myself in fast reading so that should help. (I knew I’d find use for this training.)

I’ll have time in about a week, so if someone is happy to have a go at it before then, I’ll be happy to follow.

I may have screwed up. Bought a Xantrex 400 as an experiment because I’m energy-retarded and wanted some hands-on experience with something simple. I charged it as directed for 48 hours (even tho it showed as fully charged after about 4 hours) — directions say you can leave it attached to AC power all the time.

Another section of the instructions say that you can’t be charging and powering an electrical device at the same time. I wish the people who wrote the instructions talked to each other.

Anyway. I used it to power a dc cooler (my refrig broke, described in a couple other threads). Stopped and recharged at 50%, after about 3 hours of usage. Then let the thing power the cooler til the alarm went off. Recharged again.

Then attached to a lamp to get an idea of what it will do for a low power requirement. Alarm went off after about an hour and a half. Did I mess up the battery by training it to only use part of it’s capability? If so, is there a way to re-train it?

Sorry in advance if this is a really dumb set of questions from a power newbie.

Blackbird- It’s late, and I may not be my sharpest, but here goes:

First of all, the Xantrex has a 20 AH battery in it. that’s important to know before we look at your experiences.

I am assuming your DC cooler is like most of the common ones out there, and has a current draw of about 4 amps. This is equal to a discharge characteristic of C/5 (just something we need to know).

From consulting with my tech manuals, first, the Xantrex 400 will sound a low battery alarm at 11 volts, terminal voltage. This would correspond to a condition of 25% charge remaining while under a C/5 load. Thus, you would expect that while running your cooler, from full to the alarm, you would get about 3 hours of operation. that’s what you said you got, so it sounds like the battery is Okee Dokee at that point.

You didn’t say what power of lamp you connected, and whether it was running on the DC socket or through the inverter. Without knowing the wattage of the lamp, I can’t tell you a whole lot more. but it seems like it did what would be expected for the cooler.

As I and Hillbilly Bill and others have tried to convey, them batteries fill up slow, but empty out real fast.

If you tell me more about the lamp, I’ll figure out whether it sounds like things are going OK.

Hi Eccles, thanks for your reply. This can wait until you have available brain cells. :-)

You’re right on as far as the cooler. It needs a converter that draws up to 5 amps.

The lamp (I tried to use as mundane an object as I could find) has a 75 watt bulb. Regular table lamp. Don’t know what else to say about it.

Understand the draining goes faster than the filling. It doesn’t seem right that a lamp drained the thing way faster than a cooler tho. Maybe the indicator that tells whether it’s fully charged is not exactly accurate. I let it keep charging this time after it said it was 100%. The charging light kept blinking at 100% but is now solid after continued charging overnight.

Would be happy to re-try the experiment, but didn’t want to screw things up further before asking for expert advice. Wish I could figure this out (or get the info from the manual) but I can’t.

This topic has a steep learning curve for me, but I need to get it for multiple good reasons.

Blackbird-

HOLY SMOKES!!!

(Phraseology expunged to protect delicate ears)

A 75 watt load? That would be about 6–1/2 amps, and so that would be about a C/3 discharge. That would get to the 11 volt warning alarm at the 40% battery capacity point, and so would alarm out at about 1 hour and 40 minutes.

Sounds like the Xantrex is working perfectly.

Please, STOP USING 19th century technology lighting devices. Wouldn’t you have been just as happy with a 15 watt compact fluorescent? Same amount of light, 4 times longer battery life.

We really need to talk about just what you expect that poor little machine to haul around on its back for you.

Eccles. Thank you — I said I was energy-retarded, didn’t I? (Not an epithet I’d apply if it wasn’t required, believe me.)

Thanks for answering the question about the Xantrex.

I’ll go get cf lighting and keep studying. When they first came out I was a convert in theory but they didn’t fit in almost any of my fixtures.

What I’m expecting of the Xantrex is to provide emergency power for a few devices in the event of an unexpected outage. And as a hands-on training device for me. I don’t learn well anymore unless 1) I have a vested interest and 2) there’s a hands-on aspect. I still need to find out what the power-hungry stuff in my house wants. It gives me a tool to drive the investigation. When it gets too theoretical my brain jams up.

blackbird – at 01:39 --- Echoing Eccles’s suggestion, definitely get some CF lamps. I found 6- and 8-packs at both Costco and Home Depot for about USD$10 per pack. I’ve replaced nearly every lamp (ceiling lamps, ceiling fan lamps, torchiers, desk lamps) in my home except for decorative bulbs. Not only have I cut my power bill by about 25%, the rooms are noticeably cooler…they are much smaller than the originals that came out a few years back…

Eccles – at 10:23

Yes, I was suspicious when the last line on the panel was, “Yeah, that’s the ticket.” Thanks again.

Thanks much BB. I have a couple in the house, need to look at replacing the rest.

Cooling isn’t an issue — our house is COLD even during a heat wave. Not a bad thing, just not a factor in selecting lighting. I worry more about getting enough heat into the house during cold weather.

We also have a room that blows light fixtures regularly, so I haven’t wanted to replace the (inexpensive) regular bulbs with (expensive) CF bulbs. Our electrician has checked it out (after they replaced the main fixture) and they haven’t found anything wrong. There is something wrong, I just don’t know what it is.

Eccles:

Thanks for the humor, I enjoyed it even though I did have to clean Maxwell House off the monitor…

Yesterday I got the two replacement panels mounted on my roof and all six of them covered with plexiglas panels. I have had my finges crossed for a month that we wouldn’t have a hailstorm before I could get some protection over them. I am anxious to see how the addition of the last two panels increases my meager alternative energy generation.

A word of caution about battery chargers. I bought a Schumacher 2/12/25 amp charger that is supposedly “smart” enough to do everything but make me coffee. It really gets confused on multiple batteries connested in paralell, and lately it is acting odd when connected to a single battery. I’m thinking a much less intellgent model would have been a better choice.

HBB: “It really gets confused on multiple batteries connested in paralell”

Are all of these batteries at the same charge level and maturation? Otherwise, your results will be erratic as the weaker batteries draw energy from your stronger batteries.

Will – at 09:28

All batteries were purchased at the same time and charged to the same level before connecting. They have been charged and discharged together since connecting. It really is puzzling. Sometimes the charger works exactly as it should, other times it blinks and goes into safe shut-down mode.

Will someone with knowledge of generators please comment on this one from Harbor Freight:

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=92456

2800 WATTS PEAK, 2600 WATTS RATED GENERATOR
8 hour continuous run time @ 50% load
6.5 HP, 3600 RPM, 4 stroke, OHV gas engine
Low oil shut down
EPA and CARB certified
Recoil start with electronic ignition
Fuel gauge and volt meter
Dual 120 volt, 20 amp receptacle
12 volt, 10 amp DC output
3.96 gallon fuel tank
$350 US Dollars

Thanks in advance

Dennis-

I haven’t used this generator myself. I have seen this model advertised as coming from a (of course) Chinese manufacturing operation. I am very leery that you would get a rugged machine that will operate with high reliability for a long time.

I’m sure that when new, out of the box, it will burn gas, make noise and produce power. After that, I haven’t a clue, myself.

The new (October) Consumer Reports has an article on — ta daaaa — generators. They didn’t list a Best Buy in the 2800–3600 watts group, but for 4500–6600 watts, they like the Briggs & Stratton Elite Series 30242, and for 6000–12000 watts, the Kohler 12RESL.

JMHO, of course…a 3.96 gallon fuel tank, based on the average gennie, would last about 5 hours. 2800 watts, if it keeps it’s promise, would maybe power your fridge and a couple of lights. If I were you, Dennis, I’d buy one of them high-output, ‘merican-made, Honda generators with about 5K watts peak power and a 5 gallon tank. And, one of the pluses of the Honda portable gennies is their lack of sound…they’re known to be very quiet. But remember this: this is coming from someone who has never owned a generator, but simply read about small gennies for the family campsite.

And speaking of generators, I just found out from my BIL that the local power company in the area I’m moving to (he works for them) will install a full-house generator that will switch over as soon as the power goes out (this is roughly in hurricane country in SE Virginia). They will maintain it, and keep it topped off with diesel fuel (YAHOO!!), and the installation cost is only around USD$3500!! I’m thinking, y’know..this may not be a bad deal. Until a pandemic strikes, of course…the fuel tank is supposed to hold about 40 gallons of diesel, enough, according to them, to run for 48 hours non-stop. I need to check and see if there is a manual kill/start switch somewhere on it…

dbg – at 02:42, Eccles – at 10:23

just darn! I bought an ice maker. It is suppose to work on a generator. I am hoping what y’all are saying doesn’t apply to my icemaker! Because I bought it especially for hurricane season! However, glad to know there may be salvation for this, not that I know what it is. I am gonna have to clip, paste and print what y’all said and show it to my husband. And pray hard there is a way to make the thing work! And… about a month ago had an inverter installed in my car. Hoping it is a “Pure Sine Wave” inverter. sheesh… I can’t get ahead of this game!

Just a suggestion for those looking for a generator, I bought this one. The factors that influenced my decision were:

1. It was large enough to power what I needed to run for short-term emergencies.
2. It was in stock locally so I could look at it first.
3. The fuel tank and run time were sufficent for short-term outages.
4. It has a Subaru engine and if this one last as well as the one in my car I will be a happy camper!

Dennis in Colorado – at 20:48

I will defer to Professor Eccles for the technical assessment.

Otherwise there are few main considerations relating to generators for pandemic preparedness:

1. noise

2. fuel storage, maintenance and sustainability.

3. DC or AC appliances, or usually both

4. installed transfer switch or portable

With these in mind, it is easy to see there are really two options:

1. whole house large generator with installed transfer switch

2. portable generators that has native DC output and sinewave AC output.

Finally, fuel storage is a serious problem for pandemic preparedness. You may wish to consider propane instead of gasoline or diesel.

I have given up on whole house generator - too expensive and burns too much fuel too quickly. If it’s pandemic, my life style has to change.

On portable generators, the two main players are Honda and Yamaha. Yamaha is a bit quieter and also has a 6200W propane model in Canada

http://tinyurl.com/esz4r

This is available from Northern Tool Canada (but not on U.S. website)

Then there is a small company that is authorized by Yamaha to sell a tri-fuel models (i.e. warranty intact)

http://tinyurl.com/pnwn3

This company also sells propane conversion kits for small generators made by Honda, Coleman, etc. A bought a kit for my Kipor 2000 and it works, but there was a lot of delay in delivery (their phone lines are hard to get through). If I were to do it again, I probably would have bought the Yamaha EF2400is trifuel model.

The Honda, Yamaha, Kipor digital sinewave models are relatively quiet and also have ‘smart’ throttle which idles at very low fuel usage and automatically adjust throttle based on electrical load.

Hope this helps.

Closed for length and continued here

Please note new name on title of new thread

Last relevant post copied to new thread

dbg – at 00:36 Consumer Reports … didn’t list a Best Buy in the 2800–3600 watts group

What was their top-rated generator in the lower-power group, even if it is not a Best Buy? I’ll get a copy of the magazine as soon as it is available here; right now my store still has the September issue available.