From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Canadian Preppers 2

16 May 2006

ricewiki – at 22:13

Order Prep Supplies Online With No Customs Charges!

List of some Canadian Suppliers:

http://www.sirmailorder.ca (hunting, fishing supplies) http://www.mec.ca (general camping, emergency supplies) http://www.modernoutpost.com/ (camping, emergency; larger than MEC) http://www.coghlans.ca (order-by-phone emergency, camping) http://www.harvestfoodworks.com (MRE-type dried food) http://www.radioworld.ca (radios and communication gear)

If you come across other great Canadian online (or in meat space) suppliers, post here. Also, we could get a section going on Canadian-specific planning websites etc. and post that one at the start of our next thread like this too.

Previous Canadian Preppers thread is here.

ricewiki – at 22:15

If anyone finds a place where I can buy the Sony ICF-SW7600GR AM/FM Shortwave World Band Receiver with Single Side Band Reception in Canada, online or in person, I would love to know. It’s $199 USD, but it has everything, plus SSB reception for listening to HAMs.

Will The Source order in single items like this?

for that matter… if you see any radio with SSB capability for sale in Canada, I’d love to know.

thanks in advance…

ricewiki – at 23:16

http://www.microbix.com (masks, disinfectants, viral protection)

17 May 2006

Prepping Gal – at 00:10

Here’s a couple of outdoor stores in Calgary. I love wandering around Ribtor because they have the unusual items so you may want to contact them if there is something you can’t find. They have one main downtown warehouse and then for the really old and odd items they have warehouses in the southeast. They are really helpful.

http://www.ribtor.com/

http://wholesalesports.com/

TCatat 17:22

I went to Shoppers Home Healthcare store today http://www.shoppersdrugmart.ca/english/home_health_care/store_locations/index.html and they had ‘health care’ N95 masks and the prices were not bad (all prices are approximate).

I do not see it on their web site, but they have boxes of N95 masks (Moldex and Amd: $25 for box of 20), surgical masks ($15 for box of 50), gloves - all sizes ($12 for 100). They even had P95 mask ($15 each). I forgot to check safety glasses, but pretty sure they would have it too.

Here is one of the two types N95 masks they had: Moldex 2200 N95 http://www.masksnmore.com/mo22n95pare.html

Sailor – at 20:24

ricewiki

As I mentioned in previous post “The Sony Store” (403) 347–2626 talk to James can order the “Sony ICF-SW7600GR AM/FM Shortwave World Band Receiver with Single Side Band Reception “ in for you for a price of 329$. These radios are no longer in production and they only have 15 left in the Eastern distribution system.

ricewiki – at 21:34

Wow, I didn’t know they were limited edition now… 329 plsu shipping is probably a bit more than I want to pay right now, but thanks… I’ll be looking for a similar radio.

I did take note of this model and look for it, just couldn’t find it anywhere to order online. Now I know why.

ricewiki – at 21:49

Received another order from mec.ca today and I love it! I got two cute little knives, a small tool-tool, a great emergency blanket, and other neat stuff. Definitely ordering more from them. It always arrives in like 4 days, too.

If you’re thinking of ordering MEC, ask me I can give a recommendation on products I’ve already bought.

Prepping Gal – at 23:23

I visit MEC whenever I have an hour to spare. Still like Ribtor better however their website does not do it justice (if you are in Alberta).

19 May 2006

ricewiki – at 14:06

Just received some dried food orders in the mail from HarvestFoodWorks. So far I’ve tried the lentil soup and the cheese soup. Both are good. I want to try these foods first just to make sure they’re acutally eatable… then I’ll order more.

22 May 2006

Sailor – at 19:14

ricewiki

Just checked out the SSB YB400 at “The Source” on the weekend and they had it on for 130$ which is much more reasonable for a good quality Short wave radio.

25 May 2006

ricewiki – at 11:42

bump - just keeping open for us

Sailor – at 14:40

ricewiki

Correction on the above YB400 price. The bifocals failed me again, the actual price on sale, confirmed by phoning the store is 169.99 not 130$. Regular price is 199.99$ Sorry about the mistake.

Prepping Gal – at 19:00

Went to Real Canadian Wholesale Club and picked up a few more things. I got the TRIO scalloped potatoes and the TRIO powdered cheese sauce. I’m going to try the Chinese sausages that don’t need refrigeration (6 month expiry however). I saw they had 25 pound cornmeal bags at half the price it is in 4 pound bags at the regular Superstore. They also have a good price on 20 lb bags of chickpeas. They have asparagus tips for 1.98 if you buy 4 cans and canned potatoes for .92 if you buy 8 cans. Also despite purchasing a coal/wood outdoor oven I’ve picked up a Coleman oven for the propane stove just in case. As well I added a Lodge iron cast dutch oven (6 quart) which is not deep as others because this model is really designed for baking. I also already have 4 frying pans, 1 chicken fryer, two dutch ovens (deep) one small and one large, a grill frying plan and a flat grill. So now I have alternatives depending on the situation. Also stocked up on plenty of charcoal a few weeks before the long weekend- before the prices when sky high. Glad CP2 will stay open.

anonymous – at 19:39

With this past weekend being the long weekend, we did a prep run to our cottage. It is a fairly isolated log cabin on a lake with no hydro and an airtight stove, an outhouse, and a small garden with some veggies coming up. We go up winter and summer and have no problem with “roughing it”. My big problem is how much of my 4 month supply of food do I take to the cottage? Do I assume that as soon as it goes pandemic that it is time to bug out? Or do I stick with the job until things get really bad? If I bug out too soon I lose my job and a month or two of preps. If I wait too long my family might get sick and I could get stuck in the city. Decisions. Decisions.

Prepping Gal – at 21:14

Tough call. I did see someone here mention that they had their cabin broken into and they had food ruined during the vandalism. Can you keep food hidden at the cabin site? We have a place on west coast and we live in Alberta. We visit a few times a year. I gave up leaving food their because of rodents. When to go, I don’t know. We’re staying where we are; we live in the country but not far from a city. Only if things got dangerous would we likely leave to our west coast place because it is more remote. We’ve decided that there are advantages to both places and we’ll decide at that time if we need to move. Quaratines may decide for us. As far as leaving a job, we’re young retirees so that isn’t one of our considerations. Is your company making plans for employees? Can you work from home? from your cabin? I know for us we plan to SIP as soon as either quarantines are established anywhere in North America, or h2h2h2 is on record in any major city that flies to North America. Its a tough decision.

26 May 2006

MaMaat 02:10

bump

28 May 2006

Country Canuck – at 22:29

In British Columbia, use www.gutz.com for medical supplies. I order the bulk of medical supplies for our Fire Dept. from them and have never been disappointed yet.

Sailor – at 23:32

Prepping Gal

Are you South, Central or North. I am Central and on a farm as well. I struggled with the idea of relocating for this Pandemic but I have now come to the conclusion that we are in the very best possible location to wait this out and relocating and loosing access to all of the equipment and supplys at the farm makes no sense at all to me so I am staying put come what may.

01 June 2006

gharris – at 04:35

bump

02 June 2006

Prepping Gal – at 18:04

I’m Southern and I agree Alberta’s a good place to be but I’m keeping my options open in case we feel threatened in our present location. I think there will be very few threatening situations. Being oceanside has risks I think because our west coast is virtually unprotected from smuggling be it birds or humans. No we’ll SIP here until something forces us out.

Sailor and central Alberta are contradictions aren’t they” >:)

03 June 2006

Prepping Gal – at 19:39

Can anyone in Canada direct me to an online supplier or retailer of quality canning equipment and supplies? I’m thinking of the All-American Pressure Canner, Ball half-gallon jars and lids. So far I’ve found lots online in USA. I’ve seen the Mirro at Canadian Tire but it is their low end product.

Also think I might get a dehyrdator- any suggestions?

Purchased the Bernardin Complete Book of Home Preserving at Chapters/Indigo but it didn’t have any suggestions for products that I saw.

Thanks.

Prepping Gal – at 19:42

I saw my link above to Ribtor and under Restaurant Supplies they carry the All-American line. I’ll check it out next week but wouldn’t mind others to compare prices.

Ottawan – at 19:45

http://www.berryhilllimited.com

04 June 2006

Prepping Gal – at 12:29

Ottawan – at 19:45

Thanks that’s a great website.

Sailor – at 21:10

Prepping Gal – at 19:39

I purchased my All-American Canner from the local Home Hardware Building & Garden Center, they also had Jars.

05 June 2006

TCatat 17:36

Anyone into sprouting? I’ve been buying my sprouts from sprouting.com for two years now. The company is in Canada and shipping is free on orders over $25. Two spoons of seeds and a little bit of water gives you a jar of greens (full of vitamins) in just a few days.

The seeds can be stored for years, it is all organic and super easy: instructions

Prepping Gal – at 20:40

Thanks Sailor. Went into the city and got the All-American. Wasn’t going to but then thought how I would kick myself if it wasn’t available when I went back. Didn’t go with the large 930 but went with the 921 instead. Also got a canning kit. Got jars at Walmart & Canadian Tire because of price. I didn’t know how many to get so I got 5x 12 1 litre, 1x 12 1.5 litre and 2 x 12 500 ml all in the 86mm lids. Got an extra 8 sets up lids for future use plus the plastic lids if I use for other purposes. Got a canning pot 7 quart as well with rack from Walmart. I hope I have enough. I’ll have to figure out what I will most likely can. I’m thinking if we lost power then I’d start canning meat from the freezer. I like canned potatoes, canned crabapples, canned rhubarb, canned apples. I guess I should start with what we like.

TCat I saved your sprouting link and had a quick look. I will look into this further.

Thanks

06 June 2006

TCatat 12:36

Prepping Gal,

You’ll find lots of information about sprouting on the web. Here is one of the best sites: sproutpeople.com .

You can have fresh food anytime with virtually no effort or equipment. All you need is a glass jar, some mesh ( I’ve got window screen mesh at Canadian Tire), rubber band and some sprouting seeds. You soak seeds for 4–8 hours and then rinse them twice a day (you can still use the water after rinsing seeds). Fenugreek, lentils, kamut, adzuki, peas and garbanzo beans take about 2 days to get ready; alfalfa, radish, canola, clover, broccoli, radish, mustard, arugula - about 4–6 days. Sprouting is super easy, cheap and it is good for you - supposedly sprouts are more nutritious than grown veggies (see broccosprouts.com ).

Prepping Gal – at 16:46

TCat you are opening my mind to a totally new idea. Thanks somuch. I’ll do the reading and then get some product.

20 June 2006

TCatat 13:52

From CFRB 1010 web site:

Health minister tells disaster experts to collaborate now on pandemic efforts June 19, 2006 - 11:11 TORONTO (CP) - Canada’s health minister says governments need to be prepared to protect their citizens from a pandemic. Tony Clement made the comment to experts from 40 countries today at the World Conference on Disaster Management being held in Toronto. Clement acknowledges a pandemic may be far down the road. But he says efforts to prepare now and allocate resources are essential to help mitigate the impact of any outbreak. The hundreds of experts gathered were told that governments need to collaborate to ensure a co-ordinated and effective global response. The conference, which will also feature a forum on terrorism, runs through Wednesday.

Here is the link to the conference site: http://www.wcdm.org/

22 July 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 02:35

I read in the Globe and Mail about our Prime Minister’s Office micromanaging style that likely contributed to delay and chaotic organization of the evacuation of Canadians stranded in Lebanon.

I don’t want this to turn into a partisan or political debate.

However, I am quite concerned that as a pandemic approaches, our Cabinet Ministers may not be empowered to do what is needed without approval from the publicity director at the PMO. Looking good seems to be more important than doing it right, for a minority government. Unfortunately, the main stream press does not seem to recognize that this indecisiveness may be the biggest risk our country is exposed to. It won’t matter how much Tamiflu we stockpile, how good looking a plan we have (which as I understand has not been tested by the troops on the ground). I can see the same indecision, lack of empowerment, second guessing, micromanaging by the biggest spin doctor machinery our country has seen - all of which could costs us precious time. You may be aware that the Federal Government, during the ‘hottest’ time of the Karo cluster, convened a meeting in Toronto with the Provincial Health Minsiters and made a deal to have coordinated public information i.e. we all must sing from the same song book.

More worrisome is that our Health Minister Clement is from Ontario and does not seem to belong to the inner circle of the government. If Foreign Minister McKay’s hands were tied in the last week, and he was Deputy Leader of the Conservative Party, I can’t imagine Health Minister Clement, who is a rookie (not in politics or minister) in the Federal scene, would have more clout and be able to act. It seems to me most of Clement’s action so far has been photo-op, publicity and CYA - he kept saying how Canada is ahead of the rest of the world because of SARS. I am not looking to bash anyone, which I think will distract from useful work. I am looking for ideas that will motivate the government to take open up and to decentralize and empower the bureaucrats to take early decisive action should a pandemic approach us.

Please contribute. Thanks in advance.

(Non Canadians are just as welcome to contribute)

SIMON – at 14:11

Anon,the gov is blank,i have a mini farm and asked Agriculture and Health what if,i have several rare varietys of chickens,i did`nt even receive a reply,the gov is like the head in the sand,they have not the answers or even the slightest idea of prep,we are alone i feel,my birds i culled most of them,here in Nova Scotia the eastern sector wild fowl are to return Aug-Sept from Greenland where they met with western European fowl,expectations are they will carry an extra passenger,my biggest concern was the bald eagles,they eat dead or dying fowl,i asked in my letter why is`nt there a Noahs building to maybe save one of 800 varietys of birds in Atlantic Canada,still nothing came in the way of an answer

Prepping Gal – at 17:41

I agree with Simon, we are alone. I have never expected any help; that isn’t a political statement it’s just how I’ve lived my life. If my husband and I are going to make it through something like BF it will be because we prepared, we use our wits and we can respond to any ongoing issues that arise.

I hope this doesn’t come across as political (because that isn’t my intent) but whenever I’ve travelled I never expected the gov’t to come to my aid. No I haven’t been in Lebanon but I travelled on a regular basis to Northern Ireland when the “troubles” were bad. I’ve had machine guns pointed at me and I knew I better keep my wits about me. I needed to know where I could go, where it was dangerous, where I shouldn’t be at night but I went and endured. I was at a hotel that the night before the back of the hotel was blown up.It never crossed my mine that I would get help from the Canadian government. My sister travelled to Nairobi and was robbed of all her possessions; family dealt with it, not government. I guess I have always had a low opinion of what government would do for me; on the good side its made me more aware of my risks.

ANON-YYZ – at 22:07

Prepping Gal – at 17:41

I am prepping and not expect the government or anyone to bail me out. It is also the same mindset that prompted me to suggest that, maybe, some methods will be found that take into account bureaucratic inertia, leadership vacuum etc. The most I can hope for is I don’t become collateral damage because someone in government make some bad decisions, or no decisions etc. The example of Lebanon is not a study of government helping hand, but a study of government decision behaviour. Some times an imperfect decision is better than no decision. Sometimes, decision need to be made when you don’t have all the information.

There are certain decisions that the authorities need to make that could make a noticeable difference in response to an approaching pandemic. There is a tendency to do nothing, sit on it, study it more etc. Pandemic arrival is such an event that indecision could make it much worse. Annoucing it prematurely causes turmoil. Announcing it too late would be worse. You and I can decide for ourselves when its time to SIP and accept our own responsibility. The political leadership and their advisors have to decide when to respond, or to hold back, for the public good. Unlike a place like Lebanon where I can choose not to get near, I can’t choose whether I visit pandemicland. Whether my neighborhood becomes pandemicland depends on how the political leadership handles it. I am not saying it’s easy to find a new approach. That’s why this forum is so useful. Someone here may come up with a fresh angle and say ‘maybe we can try this’.

23 July 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 13:01

Prepping Gal – at 17:41

On a related note, the U.S. government is telling the citizens ‘you are on your own, so prepare’. The message from the Canadian government, however, is quite different: we have lived through SARS, we know what we are doing, don’t worry, be happy. This is very hard to understand coming from a Conservative government. Generally speaking, conservative governments encourage citizens to be self sufficient, but on the subject of a pandemic threat, this is not so.

09 August 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 22:36

I found this on the Canadian Pandemic Plan a quote about surveillance;

“Acquire (when available) and disseminate any laboratory testing materials (i.e., reagents)”

Guess what. This does not START until WHO announces phase 4.

Does the Government of Canada expect to be able to place an order, receive the material, distribute across the country to each locale, and be ready to test before the pandemic hits our shores?

http://tinyurl.com/hhfgs

Tom DVM – at 23:08

ANON-YYZ. I think that most if not all regulatory agencies in the world are smoking what they are supposed to be selling…in other words they have convinced themselves this is not going to happen…they get worried when there is a spike in cases but like an old dog soon settle back down for an good afternoon nap.

We will not know what they will do until it happens but a period of total paralysis and panic in regulatory agencies probably should be expected.

20 August 2006

Prepping Gal – at 12:56

I want to bring this thread back to life.

First, I haven’t seen any migratory birds (in Alberta) as of yet and I sit on a major migatory route. I usually see thousands of geese from my kitchen window; so they aren’t flying south out west perhaps its just out east.

Second, I do wish I could see this event from the other side. Now that I’ve done 90% of our prepping I think more about large cities and I can’t fathom what the unprepared are going to do. What happened in the large cities back in 1918? I know I’ve read John Barry’s book but what I’m still wondering is what was an average family’s day like: foraging for food (where); what utilities were up and running (for apartments in major cities); how many starved vs died from BF-large numbers died but was it from BF or lack of food/medical care/dehydration. I realize I only have a distant look at 1918 when I’d like zoom in to get the nitty-gritty.

Third- anti-viral medication or vaccine - I do not believe there is going to be “any” medication to handle a pandemic for the general public - not in the next 5 to 10 years if ever. It’s like saying they’ve found a cure for the common cold; they can’t give a vaccine for the common flu so what are people thinking, its insane to think we’ll somehow be saved by medicine.

Fourth - what government in the history of the world save people from major disasters; their job will always be to come in after the fact to restore order-it’s a fantasy to think any other way. No help isn’t on the way.

Fifth - those that prep and can do so safely will need to be the strong ones after all this is over.

21 August 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 14:36

Canadian Influenza site still shows Travel Advisory dated May 26th.

http://tinyurl.com/f3v4u

Tom DVM – at 14:59

Hi Prepping Gal

Thanks for the news. Nature has been acting kind of funny this summer in Ontario…if Indian lore is correct, I believe we are in for a ‘hell’ of a winter. I would have a hard time disagreeing with the rest of your post.

ANON YYZ. Nice job the other night on ‘you know who’. Keep up the good work!!

gharris – at 23:07

bump

22 August 2006

bumping for bill and monotreme – at 07:53
Quill – at 09:17

I saw a small v-formation of Canadian Geese flying south on the weekend….near Toronto I work at a University….several times I’ve asked the staff assoc. if they have a policy re: bird flu. Have gotten no response. Have prepped about 50% …live in small university city. Still debating whether to head for the cottage to SIP, stay in the city, or join some like minded friends in a private trailer park near Waterloo. At least the park has own fresh water supply (if there is hydro)…and is in the middle of farm country. General level of awareness among my friends and colleagues is low…they think I’m nuts…

Tom DVM – at 09:23

Quill Welcome…nice to meet you. Thanks for the information.

I am from the Peterborough area and the birds have been acting funny for a month…I have never seen anything quite like it before.

They were doing what they would normally do now, a month ago. They seem to be acting normally now so I’m not sure what it means…probably nothing.

Prepping Gal – at 18:58

Welcome Quill (from southern Alberta - there is a difference). Initially I tried talking to people but I kept getting responses that showed I wasn’t taken seriously. I guess if we are nuts we’ll be well-stocked nuts. I like knowing I have lots of supplies no matter what the situation. We plan to stay here but have place on west coast much more remote; I think if it comes to that we’ll be making a mad dash but if so we’ve decided to act before the general public is aware-not sure we will know but hopefully. We just can’t decide if being really remote is actually a better situation or not. I’m on the fence about that.

23 August 2006

gharris – at 00:53

I was at dinner party tonight with a lawyer and a primary school teacher - both good friends, tolerate my discourse on BF genrally - but the teacher informs me she wont SIP when/if it comes to Ontario! I tried to explain the schools will be shut but she doesnt believe me - the lawyer wants to see my ‘proof’ on the liklihood of H5N1 going pandemic - I think I will print up some ‘collected works’ from this site to give to people like these in future!!

Tom DVM – at 00:56

gharris. Good to see you back and in ‘fighting form’. /:0)

Hurricane Alley RN – at 10:00

bump

ANON-YYZ – at 10:26

gharris – at 00:53

For your teacher friend, schools are listed as Non-traditional medical care sites - Appendix J of Canadian Pandemic Plan. Just search for schools in the 34 page pdf. A school teacher might trust the government more than an individual.

Don’t know whether school administrators will be required to work, or only volunteers.

The first page talks about 50% infection rate, 15–30% clinically sick. Should be eye opener for your friend.

http://tinyurl.com/8kzpp

ANON-YYZ – at 10:28

ANON-YYZ – at 10:26

gharris – at 00:53

Sorry, bad link. Try again:

http://tinyurl.com/l7zcp

ANON-YYZ – at 15:49

gharris and TomDVM

This is in your neck of the woods from hospitalnews dot com . Tell us what you think.

“Kingston hospital leads the way in CBRN preparedness

The first of its kind in Ontario and headed up by the hospital’s security and life safety services, the KGH plan is viewed by the rest of the province as a model. Designated as a “level one” response hospital for up to 100 casualties, the Ministry of Health and Long-term Care gave KGH $186,000 in personal protective equipment, such as gas masks and protective suits, as well as a multiple decontamination shower system.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:01

bump

gharris – at 23:06

what does CBRN mean??

ANON-YYZ – at 23:09

gharris – at 23:06

Chemical Biological Radioactive Nuclear

gharris – at 23:15

thanx YYZ - I googled it and came up with this - http://tinyurl.com/j4zhp “We’re definitely the leaders,” said Conway. “So many hospitals don’t even have the equipment, let alone the policies and procedures in place to run a CBRN program.” Conway said she hopes the information day will encourage the guest hospitals to organize their own CBRN programs.

“If they don’t do it now, they’ll be behind and forced to play catch up. I hope we helped show them what needs to be done.”

The guests took measurements, asked questions and snapped photographs as they toured a mock demonstration in the decontamination tent, which will be set up just outside the emergency room doors during a CBRN event. “They loved seeing the whole set up and how it worked,” Conway said. “We showed them how the decontamination process works.”

My guess is that Kingston is ‘on the map’ because of CFB Kingston - high potential for some kind of terrorist attack - doesnt look like BF is very high on their radar, given the ‘decontamination unit’ stuff and so on - sounds mostly chemical/radiation/nuclear with some biochem - and not much at all re BF - in my quick read of it - you?? Wonder what CanadaSue makes of it - do you follow her on CurEvents - she lives in Kingston and nurses at ?KGH

gharris – at 23:24

CanadaSue posted this on CurEvents on Aug 21

‘Publicity Watch’ Monitering awareness/warnings


Last April, my provincial government published an info pamphlet on pandemic influenza. It gives some basic info - too general for my liking but I thought it wasn’t a bad start. It was clear in stating it expects 1/3 of the population to be stricken or at the very least infected, over at least 2 waves. It gives basic definitions of ‘pandemic’, explains how those start, details differences between seasonal/pandemic flu & gives a contagiousness risk period of 48 hours pre-symptoms to 5 days post development of symptoms.

It discusses HOW you can catch it, warns about adults possibly getting it & notes differences between seasonal/pandemic issues. It’s warning of 2–3 waves lasting 2–3 months & coming several waves apart. States no vaccine until at least 4–5 months. Warns we don’t have enough antivirals; which may not work anyway.

Says we can’t predict much in advance but that “our daily routines may be disrupted’ & mentions work & school disruptions/closures as well as only essentail govt. services being provided. It discusses avoiding illness by social distancing, frequent hand washing & following public health instructions.

Stated goal during pandemic - to LIMIT the spread, not prevent, cure or anything else.

Now I’ve seen a few of them out this summer but now, they’re everywhere. Lately I’ve seen them in 2 doctors’ clinics, the dentist & even the opticians’ office. In shirt, I think a public awareness blitz is taking shape & I’ll moniter that & report anything significant here.

Anyone else seeing similar things where they are? __________________

ANON-YYZ – at 23:33

gharris – at 23:15

Was it CFB Trenton? Close enough. May be also to cover Ottawa?

I was trying to understand whether the government is serious about leveraging the expertise in CBRN for pandemic readiness. They are certainly patting themselves on the back, photo-op and all that. Does that mean they only have money for the CBRN capability for a small number of patients, and no money for a slightly lesser capability for a lot more patients?

Also CBRN is a one-off event, albeit very intensive and quick response, whereas pandemic response would be continous for weeks and therefore sustainability of equipment, supplies AND most importantly HCW is critical. Adrenalin alone is not good enough.

Tom DVM – at 23:38

Hi ANON YYZ and gharris.

In response to a question by Moeb on the ‘Communtiy Preps for the Worst Case Scenario 11′ thread, I commented on regulatory agencies in Canada. I thought I should post the response on this thread Thanks and Keep Up the Good Work!!

Moeb yer a bad man :-) so didn’t you work in food inspection? as in plants… do you have a method where key plants might be located? or do we just call dal monte?

Tom DVM – at 21:59 moeb. No I was a practising farm veterinarian who also was accredited by Agriculture Canada-Health of Animals division to prepare animals for export to other countries of the world and to do other jobs as well.

I became aware in Sept 1998 of a problem of food quality that was so obvious my dog Clover could have figured it out…I went to my colleagues figuring the product would be given the adios from Canada in two years…it is still here 7 years later.

I then learned the realities of the change in mandate from the Agriculture Canada to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency which included a double mandate…promotion of food and inspection of food at the same time…go figure..

…I have not commented on the CDC because it is not in my country…other that to say that they helped save my life in 1981.

…I also chose not to speak about regulatory agencies in my country to other than citizens of my country…but to be honest…I no longer give a damn…they can kiss my…oops!!

Tom DVM – at 22:01 Sorry, should have said ‘figuring the product would be given the adios from Canada in two weeks…it is still here 7 years later.

Tom DVM – at 22:47 One thing I forgot to mention was that Agriculture Canada became the Canadian Food Inspection Agency in 1997.

Also we did not only have SARS in 2003 but we had the first BSE cases in North America one month after the SARS outbreak…

…as a result of some minor slip-ups, the Canadian Government and surprisingly enough the Canadian Food Inspection Agency is being sued for nine billion dollars by the farmers of Canada for incompetence leading to this outbreak…

…and as a matter of fact, the farmers of Canda are going to win this case about seven years from now…

…the moral of the story that should be kept in mind with the WHO…is that when they are screwing up one issue that you know about…they are screwing up a multitude of issues that you don’t know about and will never know other than for minor slip-ups like the BSE outbreak.

gharris – at 23:41

YYZ - the trial was at KGH, Kingston - would never have been Trenton because that is in Quinte district, now under the ‘leadership’ of Dr Schabas formerly of Toronto SARS (in)fame!! He is a noted naysayer/denier!! and has a lot of influence on what ALL of these central/east health units spend time/money on. I doubt if they are very serious abt BF at all - the pandemic manager here in Haliburton/Kawartha/Pine Ridge (Northumberland/Peterborough) Health Unit doesnt even reply to my emails anymore - I have become a ‘P.I.T.A. to him on the subject of BF’!! HKPR Unit recently put out a glossy brochure abt ‘emergency preparedness’ which didnt mention BF and which told people to have food etc for 3 or 4 days in case of ice storm type stuff!! Completely useless!! ARRGGGHHH!!!

gharris – at 23:45

Hi Tom!! Which product was it that is still around?????

Tom DVM – at 23:49

Fresh Shiitake Mushrooms imported from China labelled ‘Fresh Product of Canada’ in all major grocery stores…with massive treatments with extraneous formaldehyde (embalming fluid) and meta-bisulphites.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:51

gharris – at 23:41

A few months ago, during Emergency Preparedness week, BF was briefly mentioned. I just checked the Emergency Management Ontario website, there is nothing about pandemic. I also checked the influenza.gc.ca and the travel advisory was dated May 26th. They have all forgotten about pandemic.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:53

Tom DVM – at 23:49

Are you sure you are OK?

gharris – at 23:58

TOM - ARRRRKKKK!!! okay throwing them out now!!!!! Thanx for the hedzup!!!

YYZ - you are correct - it is not even on the radar!!!! So what can we DO about it?? You are in Mississauga arent you? If so, Call Hazel and get her to lean on the Health Unit - she cares and she will!!

Up here - I dunno… maybe Tom cd lean on our Health Unit from DVM point of view?

Tom DVM – at 23:59

ANON - YYZ. I will give you my father’s answer…everything is relative!!

24 August 2006

gharris – at 00:02

TOM - any particular brand??

Tom DVM – at 00:08

gharris. Don’t throw out Canadian Shiitake…the Chinese aren’t around as much know because of the change in the dollar and increased transport costs but they are around…just ask your grocer to identify the farm they come from or even better…buy them at the farmers market where you can look the farmer in the eye.

You should remember that I am a fully accredited veterinarian with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency…I danced with them for more than five years…the mushrooms were tested independently…then the testing was confirmed by Health Canada and CFIA labs…they did nothing.

I tried every concievable way around the mountain and failed…now the conservatives are in power and they are once again defending the status quo.

Well my issue was the tip of the iceburg…the SARS and the BSE issues were a small part of the rest.

If you know any cattle farmers tell them to keep records of cattle numbers because I have looked at the evidence and the CFIA doesn’t have a leg to stand on…the farmers are going to win that 9 billion dollar lawsuit.

As far as ‘Fresh Product of Canada’ labelling…means absolutely nothing…there have been all kinds of chinese perishable produce sent to Canada on boats that take two weeks plus clearing customs delays plus shipping to eastern Canada plus sold to middle men to the food terminal to grocery stores to you…

…if you want pristine produce, go to the farmers market or better still grow it in the garden…

…as far as produce and preservatives in a grocery store…buyer beware!!

The metabisulphites were at 50 times the minimum effective treatment concentration…I believe the formaldehyde was more than twice the concentration of the solution that I would buy for laboratory samples…REALLY!!

ANON-YYZ – at 00:13

gharris – at 23:58

I think the problem is both Federal and Ontario governments run out of money (in their budges). Too many constituents asking for ‘look after me first’, and since the pandemic is only a possibility in the future - a future that may be pass an election date, they can’t put money on the table now because 90% of the population will say you should have spent the money on MY pet project first.

I am not in Mississauga and I don’t think municipal politicians can do much (many have real estate developers as major interest groups lobbying). It is mostly provincial and some federal. Both provincial and federal don’t want to attract attention, because it is thankless.

Already, Vancouver has been complaining about too much contingency budget reserved by Federal government for pandemic - instead THEIR pet projects should be funded first.

The longer this pre-pandemic period is, the harder it is to get funding for preparedness. I think the end game is going to be ‘hope we have enough Tamiflu, vaccine, and heroic HCW’s. With 40% nuclear, our hydro is vulnerble to shut down with sick employees that can’t be replaced quickly.

With Toronto election soon, Federal election next spring (possible) and Ontario within 2 years. Every one is trying to deliver short term freebies to constituents. Pandemic, what pandemic?

ANON-YYZ – at 00:16

Tom DVM – at 00:08

I vaguely heard on the radio there is another BSE outbreak?

You mean I can’t even trust the biggest of grocers like Loblaws?

Tom DVM – at 00:20

gharris. As you and I have discussed before…I am pretty good at the science but not very good at the public relations aspect…this is commonplace amongst scientist so that it is rare to see a knowledgable one in the media.

I have never been sure how to wake people up to the real and imminent risk. I have come to believe that it will only happen if a person in authority makes a bold step like I mentioned on the threads tonight.

Health Canada etc. uses the WHO’s data to downplay the risk…the only way out of this is to take a two-by-four up the side of the head to the WHO.

I think we have made some real progress in that regard but we still have a long way to go and it appears little time left.

You might know more about the public relations aspect then me.

gharris – at 00:21

YYZ - They dont need funding to get the message out to people to prepare!!! Just call any newsreporter and issue a press release!! That costs NOTHING!!!

Tom DVM – at 00:24

ANON - YYZ. The ongoing testing appears to indicate that the risk of BSE is quite small but the CFIA has a problem with consistency in relation to the application of the laws of Canada and the parameters as set out in the Food and Drug Act…

…or to put it another way…food safety and regulation in Canada at the moment…not happening…I mean zero…I mean the Wild West…Its all about the money!!

As to your question about grocery stores…they are self-regulated at the moment.

ANON-YYZ – at 00:25

gharris – at 00:21

But Canadians expect the government provide for them. So you will hear in the House of Commons in Question Period “Will he minister explain why nothing’ been done?”

Their business friends will ask “why are you ruining my business, now I have nothing to donate to your next election campaign”.

gharris – at 00:25

‘They’ means TPTB - Fed or Prov - sorry

Tom DVM – at 00:26

Sorry, so the key is to pick one that you trust and question the produce and meat managers all the time…if you don’t like the answers, change grocery stores.

gharris – at 00:29

I expect the govt to have Tamiflu for me - and I wish they wd have vaccine - but I am a realist - TPTB should issue a ‘US style’ message/press release saying - We cant rescue you from your ‘roof’ you are on your own if BF comes and BTW you’d better get ready!!’

ANON-YYZ – at 00:31

Tom DVM – at 00:20

“Health Canada etc. uses the WHO’s data to downplay the risk…the only way out of this is to take a two-by-four up the side of the head to the WHO.”

In a recent news thread, some one suggested that the Canadian government asked the WHO to remove some paragraphs referencing the use of masks.

WHO apparently upgraded the requirement for N95, but added some escape clauses about affordability and effectiveness dependent on country.

Tom DVM – at 00:32

ANON - YYZ and gharris.

As both of you know, we are on our own as far as H5N1 goes…the preparedness is ‘smoke and mirrors’ like everything else they do…as I am speaking as an insider.

It wasn’t always this way…most of the shift happened in the past ten years although Health Canada’s reputation amongst professionals has been well known since the 1980′s.

I will give you one example of their reputation with professionals. There was a study done in 1981 that linked Transfats conclusively to several diseases and the summary of the study was to immediately remove transfats from processed foods etc. This was in 1981!!

Of course, the report was based on a confidentiality agreement and was deep sixed for the next twenty years…even as late as 2004, Health Canada was still refusing to ban transfats because…get this…it would cause too many problems for industry.

Like I said…once I knew what they would do with obvious and irrefutable evidence of the adulteration of food…I pretty much knew that there was a lot they were not doing…I eventually found out that they were doing nothing based on my discussions with trusted colleagues on the inside.

Tom DVM – at 00:34

ANON YYZ Thanks…Kind of says it all…doesn’t it.

ANON-YYZ – at 00:41

Tom DVM – at 00:34

Thanks

I just realized I never asked you about the Kingston General Hospital CBRN unit story that started this discussion. Comments?

 http://tinyurl.com/j4zhp
ANON-YYZ – at 00:42

gharris – at 00:29

I hope you realize there’s not going to be enough Tamiflu to go around.

Tom DVM – at 00:47

gharris. anon is right…forget the tamiflu…not going to happen…and not going to work anyway…I could get it but don’t want it and certainly wouldn’t give it to my family.

ANON YYZ. There are better places to spend the money…by the time they get the contaminated persons to kingston from gananoque, it would be too late…decontamination must occur where the contamination occurs in mobile facilities…

…you and I know of many better ways that money could have been spent…but public relations is public relations isn’t it.

ANON-YYZ – at 00:52

Tom DVM – at 00:47

Thailand just built their own mobile 4-hour test lab on a trailer with it’s own generator.

We are doing PR for the vendors who won the contracts to supply all that white elephant that is too clumpsy to move around. Our country is run by salesmen.

ANON-YYZ – at 00:54

ANON-YYZ – at 00:52

That’s why I think the pandemic strain may not necessarily be brewed in Asia. We could supply the last piece of the puzzle by just being complacent on this continent.

Tom DVM – at 00:57

ANON Trust me…it’s going to happen in China…you have to have a certain background level concentration of disease to produce the mutations required…we are a long way from that type of concentration in North America with H5N1

…but there is lots of background scatter with H7 and H3N8 in the States and soon in Canada could just as easily pop up a pandemic this fall as well all though that is less likely than H5N1.

We are in pretty big trouble with pathogens on a lot of levels at the moment.

Tom DVM – at 00:58

By the way, I been meaning to ask you…

…what is behind the YYZ.

ANON-YYZ – at 01:03

Tom DVM – at 00:57

Fair enough. It’s going to start in China. But we hear nothing.

Since they are bigger than Indonesia, one would expect more cases. Actually, Vietnam is a better comparison, because it is also a communist authoritarian free-market economy.

gharris – at 09:34

Tom & YYZ - sorry - had electrical failure last night, so went off-line unexpectedly!! (shades of things to come??) I think it was just lightening that hit a hydro line, back up fine this a.m. I dont expect they will have tamiflu for us - I know they wont! That’s why I said I am a realist - but that lack is a shocking state of affairs! We MUST press our local govt and pepper all Fed & Prov health ministers/PMs/MP/MPPs with info and strong letters!! Try to get ANY reporter interested and to write stories in local and national media. We need a LOT more hype about this - my point about the people at the dinner party the other night was that even educated and ‘liberal’ people do not understand the risk or the likelihood of our having to deal with BF right here!!! Local attempts are poohpoohed by people like Schabas! We have a LOT of work to do if we want to raise awareness!!

Tom DVM – at 09:50

gharris. I like I said to you in my offline e mail, during my seven years of food safety activism, I learned many things, some of which I would rather not have known…but it was a learning experience.

Sometimes, we are just a little ahead of the curve…a little ahead of our time…I’m quite sure that eventually the message will get through that the long term consumption of preservatives etc. in all foods including ‘Fresh Produce’ is the reason for the epidemic or pandemic of cancers that is being just as quickly explained away by Health Canada, The Public Health Agency of Canada, The Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the Government of Canada.

What I forgot to tell you was that in the end, I went to several print and television media people including all major newspapers and the Fith Estate and no onw was interested, saw the importance or was willing to take the story on.

The frustration you have with H5N1 is the same…you are before your time…the time is not right yet…I have had the same experience.

It is not for us to get the rest to prep, that is the Government of Canada’s Ontario’s etc. job to do.

The best we can do is work on our loved ones and our neighbours. Thanks.

25 August 2006

Prepping Gal – at 10:43

I’ve been listening to this thread and as a fellow Canadian I want you to know this thread has my attention. Of course I’m concerned about anything affecting our food supply. More information would be appreciated.

ANON-YYZ – at 11:03

Tom DVM – at 00:58

YYZ is the IATA Airport Code for a little place called Toronto Pearson International Airport. It’s on your checked baggage tag. I was surprised no one seems to notice that. I guess we all know where LAX, NYC are.

http://tinyurl.com/ry4rg

Quiz: BKK, CAN, JKT

Where will the journey start?

09 September 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 17:46

I notice in the news thread that the U.S. cities or states are doing something to prepare. I haven’t seen any news, even if it’s on the Internet, about Canadian municipalities or provinces. The only consistent message is Canada is better prepared than 95% of the rest of the world. There was news earlier this year that Federal and Provincial officials have made a deal to coordinate messages.

Are we Canadians supposed to be kept in the dark until TSHTF?

I am especially concerned about local and individual preparedness, compared to the U.S. since no one wants to talk about it at all.

Any one in the Health Care sector? Have you seen any action? Any one knows what’s happening with Hydro in Ontario?

Prepping Gal – at 17:53

I’m out in Alberta and feel like I’m the only one that is concerned with a pandemic. There has been nothing in the media. I just keep plugging way with my preps; many times I’ve said I’m done but then I think of one more thing but that’s almost daily. Costing a fortune so its a good thing I otherwise live quite a conservative lifestyle.

ANON-YYZ – at 18:02

I think Canadian officials got it wrong. They think that with the SARS experience, every thing can be managed from an Emergency Operations Centre. I know Canadian psyche is different from the U.S., with many pre-disposed to the government solving all the problems. I suspect individual preparedness is significantly lower than in the U.S. More will therefore be caught off-guard. When pandemic hits, Americans will realize this, and there goes tourism and commerce.

11 September 2006

Tom DVM – at 12:17

Tom DVM – at 11:14

You spend a lot of time on this forum. If you truly believe that it’s going to come out of China, then I would ask you to spend some time correcting the Canadian government’s lack of action. A little speculation is not a bad thing, but it’s too much. I know you have tremendous stress and I don’t want this worry to hurt your health. I hope you treat this as a friendly plea.

Tom DVM – at 12:15

ANON-YYZ. Thanks for your kind comments here and in the past. I really was just trying to slip that one comment in without anyone noticing but it didn’t work to well.

Now, as far as the Canadian Government goes. In Sept 1998, as a Federally Accredited Veterinarian with twenty years experience and with irrefutable independent laboratory test results behind me, I went to my agency…the Canadian Food Inspection Agency and Health Canada and the Government of Canada to have them intervene and do a little survelliance on a wide variety of imported foods from China.

But at that time their masters were very busy with their Team Canada visits to China and they weren’t very interested in listening to what I had to say objectively as scientists.

Given my history with the agencies predecessor, Agriculture Canada - Health of Animals Division, I expected this situation to be dealt with effectively and brutally in 2 weeks.

I continued my discussions with the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, Health Canada and the Government of Canada for approx. six more years. During that time, I ran into a whole lot of politicians but did not run into one scientist.

I have had this battle and I have the scars and the files to prove it…but if you can think of an approach that might work…I am with you all the way. Thanks again. /:0)

MaMaat 23:52

ANON-YYZ, do I know what’s up with Hydro in Ontario? No, not really. I can tell you what little I was able to find out about Hydro in Manitoba though, that’s where I hang my hat:-)

I found it very frustrating initially trying to find out anything. When I asked about pandemic planning the reps at the local office gave me a blank look at first, then as I explained my concerns- they looked at me like I was a complete nut. They told me to call the head office- so I did. I was put on hold and transferred multiple times and finally told that I should contact my local RM office to find out the plans for my community. So I spoke to the town council at my RM and they told me to talk to hydro, that they had not been aware of any plans(I then asked them if they thought that trying to ensure electrical service to our community was a priority, but that’s another story and I digress:-)

On the off chance it might work, I decided to e-mail the ‘ask questions’ pr guy on the MB hydro website. He actually replied, and while short on specific details, it sounds like alot of work is being done in the right direction. Here’s his reply, minus the names…

‘Thanks for your inquiry. In regards to pandemic planning, Manitoba Hydro has taken a pro-active approach to planning for the threat of a pandemic related to avian influenza. Manitoba Hydro developed a plan to deal with an infectious disease outbreak in 2003 after the SARS outbreak in Ontario. In consultation with Hydro One the plan was developed to address related issues for staff and customers when workforce disruption occurs.

In 2005, a separate plan was developed with a focus on dealing with an event caused by the HIV avian flu virus. The plan was developed with Manitoba Health and covers all anticipated aspects of a pandemic.

In addition, Manitoba Hydro has contributed and participated in the development of pandemic planning for the North American Electric Reliability Council, Canadian Gas Association, and Manitoba Interutility Committee on Emergency Preparedness.

In 2006, Manitoba Hydro conducted a simulation exercise designed to evaluate our ability to deal with a pandemic and formed a pandemic planning committee that regularly meets to evaluate current requirements and to update the corporate pandemic plan as required.

Manitoba Hydro has been recognized as a leader in pandemic planning with our representatives providing presentations across the county. Many leading organizations have used the Manitoba Hydro pandemic plan as a template to develop their own plans.’

Hydro One is Ontario hydro, yes? Then they are working on it. Hope that helps.

MaMaat 23:56

sorry, my typo- should be…In 2005, a seperate plan wase developed with a focus on dealing with an event caused by the H5N1 avian flu virus……oops:-)

12 September 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 00:07

MaMa – at 23:52

Thanks for the info. Hydro One is the electricity distribution company (owns the grid and the real estate, right of way) to mainly rural areas of Ontario. Ontario Hydro was split up into several entities: Ontario Power Generation, Independent Electricity System Operator (which controls the grid and acts like a commodity exchange for power generators) and the distribution companies.

It’s good to hear there is some planning. The devil now is in the details and how much resources are committed to preparation. What bothers me is the silence.

Since the 2003 black out, I think Ontario has been looking for additional source of electricity and talking to Manitoba and Quebec.

MaMaat 00:28

ANON-YYZ, you’re welcome.

‘What bothers me is the silence’.

Me too. I should think they would be announcing their plans in order to boost consumer confidence, not acting as if pandemic planning should be some huge secret. I’m glad that something, anything, is being done to mitigate the problems likelty to occur- at least at the corporate level. Frankly, it alarms me that the info doesn’t seem to be trickling down to the local level- not to the rural hydro offices and workers or to the governing bodies and planning comittees of our communities. When a pandemic comes, and I worry it may be very soon, the needs of the community will have to be met locally. Unless alot changes soon and drastically, I’m afraid we’re ‘up the creek’ in my neck of the woods.

ANON-YYZ – at 00:39

MaMa – at 00:28

My concern is that a ‘Plan’ may mean a plan for someo one else to plan for some one else to plan.

MaMaat 00:46

I hear ya

I hope we’re wrong

ANON-YYZ – at 20:13

gharris – at 20:01

“Where are we all from” thread

Should be PM Harper and Finance Minister Flaherty. There was a plan to get others (province) to plan to get others (municipality) to plan. No money means no one can take action. There was a contingency budget, but that won’t be activated until at least phase 4, by which time it’s too late. In the mean time, other vested interests with health care (in BC) want the money for their pet projects. Clement has been muzzled. When he announced the influenza.gc.ca website, a reporter yelled at him for fear mongering. Reporters sometimes represent special interest groups. That’s why things are getting quiet here. No more update on the Canadian pandemic site. All speculation by reading the news. No inside knowledge.

ANON-YYZ – at 20:37

The Canadian public is less prepared than that of the U.S. If I were a U.S. business, I would not count on Canadian branch operations (infrastructure and people) to be survivable. That means my contingency plan may include shutting down the branch operations to save the head office operations. Canada should plan for this economic collateral damage. We are more dependent on it than most other nations. JMHO.

Ottawa Guy – at 20:49

ANON-YYZ – at 20:13

In the background, most of us are planning. We have to deal with the chuckles, cheap jokes, the rolling eyes, but we are all working on our plans.

That is not to say that some orgs aren’t working hard on the problem but that many of us are.

It comes down to opinion leaders. Some of us can get others to recognize the problem and I do believe I’ve contributed to changing the attitude of a few. I work in a building with a super ministry and many other agencies, total employee population of about 3000. Three months ago, they laughed, today we collaborate.

The politicos gave us permission, now we must take it and run with it. If they remain silent now, it is only a function of timing. In two months, they will come out again.

ANON-YYZ – at 21:05

Ottawa Guy – at 20:49

Thank you.

As a Canadian, I feel more vulnerable than our U.S. friends:

1. our weather is more extreme. Loss of hydro in the U.S. may mean inconvenience, but it could mean complete paralysis for many parts of our country - remember ice storm in Quebec?

2. our population is more dependent on the government and not as willing to look after ourselves. That means we need a louder, clearer message to get people to prepare. The U.S. said “don’t expect the calvary to come to the resuce”. Our political leaders are saying “don’t worry, everything is under control” suggesting that we’ll be looked after which I know cannot be done.

3. we do not have ‘other’ reasons such as hurricanes to prepare

4. our economy is to a greater extent ‘branch plant’

5. we have tied our own hands by waiting for the WHO to go phase 4 to activate many of the steps that need to be taken - as per Canadian Pandemic Plan and Ontario Plan. That needs to be corrected more than anything else.

Three months ago, they laughed, today we collaborate.

That is a good start. I sincerely hope that we have enough time. However, the government can only do so much. The PM needs to go on TV and get the message out. It’s prudence, it’s being responsible, it’s not fear mongering and it’s fatalistic not to prepare.

Sailor – at 21:22

Prepping Gal – at 17:53

Your not alone there is a few more Albertan’s that are concerned as well. I second the comment on preping being expensive but if this pandemic happens it will all go to good use.

Tom DVM – at 21:26

Hi guys. I have only one question. Where do we get the antiotics etc. for our children. The daily requirement within the confines of Canada, my be millions of times that of Sept 12, 2006…and there will be hundreds of other countries in the world…in the exact same boat.

Ottawa Guy – at 21:27

ANON-YYZ – at 21:05

1. our weather is more extreme. Loss of hydro in the U.S. may mean inconvenience, but it could mean complete paralysis for many parts of our country - remember ice storm in Quebec?


Yes, I was in the ice storm. It didn’t only affect Quebec, Ottawa was hit hard too. I can recall having 10 friends without power living with me during that time. I was lucky, I lived downtown. I can also remember the blackout in 2003 when we were without power for 3 days. I can also remember living in PEI during Hurricane Juan and going through a power blackout that lasted 3 days there too.


3. we do not have ‘other’ reasons such as hurricanes to prepare


See above, I lived through Hurricane Juan and it wasn’t pretty. And, the following winter, I lived through “White Juan the Weather Bomb” during which we experienced 100 cm of snow in Charlottetown over a 12 hour period. Again, out of power but this time it happened in February for a day and completely snowed in, not able to get out the front door.


2. our population is more dependent on the government and not as willing to look after ourselves. That means we need a louder, clearer message to get people to prepare. The U.S. said “don’t expect the calvary to come to the resuce”. Our political leaders are saying “don’t worry, everything is under control” suggesting that we’ll be looked after which I know cannot be done.


After Hurricane Juan, the people of Charlottetown were out cutting trees for their neighbours, cleaning out sewere grates for water to drain. No gov’t in sight. During White Juan, people were going house to house looking to help their neighbours on snowmobiles, no gov’t help. We all have this feeling that Toronto is all of Canada. Wrong, most Canadians look out for one another and don’t look to gov’t for help. Outside of the cities, Canadians are pretty self reliant and a pretty collectivist bunch.

I think that, despite the best preparedness plans, Canadians have a better chance of it than any other nation.

ANON-YYZ – at 21:46

Ottawa Guy – at 21:27

I would agree with you Canadians will help the neighbors, especially in rural areas. However, there is a huge difference between an ice storm, hurricane, black out that last about 3 days to say a week in one area of the country, and a pandemic that hits the entire country for 3 months or so for each wave.

We may all help our neighbors, but we will collectively starve or freeze to death. If we don’t stock up, we have nothing to share. Counting on voluntarism alone is irresponsible. Hope is not a plan. Saying we have better chance does not make it a better chance.

You are preparing for yourself, and yet you don’t seem to agree that the public should be advised to prepare. Please explain.

Ottawa Guy – at 22:01

The one difference between Americans and Canadians is that they lived through the cold war and they experienced survivalism. There were few Canadians who built nuclear bunkers but there were many Americans who did. Throughout the threads, I agree with you that Americans are more “survivalist” in their approach, I just don’t agree that your typical American will fare better than your typical Canadian. The “rugged individualist” doesn’t necessarily have an advantage over the collectivist.

I agree, hope is not a plan but I disagree at the notion that living in a hole, full of food and a shotgun is necessarily a better approach. For the record, I have a 12 gauge over/under shotgun with a few hundred shells should someone want to demonstrate the folly of my opinion.

gharris – at 22:04

YYZ - you are ‘right on’ the money re being a ‘branch plant’!! I have a good friend high up at Nesbitt Burns who loves Sherry Cooper’s ‘Dont Fear Fear’ booklet (see Wiki main page for link) but despite that who is not preparing because OUR Govt has not issued any real warnings a la Bush/Leavitt/Osterholm!! Talk about a disconnect!!!

Ottawa Guy - With respect - I think you are dreaming in technicolour!! Yes we will all WANT help one another, as in a Montreal snowstorm or the famous ice storm - but that wont happen if the only way of avoiding the virus is to avoid other people!! (I feel moderately secure for myself as I live in a rural area, am prepped and have fuel and water in abundance - plus a 150 pound occasionally fierce guard dog!!)

I am thinking how ANGRY our survivors will be after the fact, when facing the horrendous loss and devastation that could have been avoided if our govt had only put out the word earlier so that folks could PREPARE!! The majority of our citizens have absolutely no IDEA how bad this could be!! If our present leaders are still alive afterwards, they will certainly be guilty of murder!!

ANON-YYZ – at 22:10

Ottawa Guy – at 22:01

First of all, no one is suggesting we should be living in a hole, full of food and a shotgun. Please do not paint any Canadian prepper as a survivalist or rugged individualist. I did not say the typical American will fare better than the typical Canadian. I am saying the American has been told to prepare, and the Canadian’s have been fed a fairy tale: everything is under control, there is no mention of a need to prepare for a pandemic. The only public message I can find is prepare for 3 days for any emergency.

I will repeat my last two paragraphs:

We may all help our neighbors, but we will collectively starve or freeze to death. If we don’t stock up, we have nothing to share. Counting on voluntarism alone is irresponsible. Hope is not a plan. Saying we have better chance does not make it a better chance.

You are preparing for yourself, and yet you don’t seem to agree that the public should be advised to prepare. Please explain.

and I will add one more:

Are you only preparing for 3 days?

gharris – at 22:24

Ummm - Mr Diefenbaker built a bunker for the Cold War - I think you could still use it if you needed to!!! The problem here is that guys like Schabas get heard because their advice is essentially “no need to spend any money” - “it is not going to happen, it is not going to happen to us, if it does happen it wont be bad, if it really will happen then there is nothing we can do about it”!! Where have we heard this line of guff before???!!! If you care, then you must, as you ARE in a position to be listened to, INSIST that the Feds get the message out!!! We are all ready on the ground to get the balls rolling in our own communities - we need Ottawa to give us credibility!!

Ottawa Guy – at 22:33

When did I say: “dont seem to agree that the public should be advised to prepare”? Hell, I’m in the preparedness business. I’m holding off on preps right now at 3 weeks and I’m thinking of going 3 months this week. I have money and a list set aside for this.

I’m also encouraging my staff to at least have 3 weeks reserved(start slow, work your way up).

Look, I have to be a realist. I can’t tell my 1000 staff to prepare for a year’s worth of food/supplies without some kind of basis in reality. H5N1 is out there, it is a real threat but…can I tell people to hoard a year’s worth of food based upon my personal feelings? NO. Same thing goes with gov’t. If Harper came out and said, “you need to hoard a year’s worth of food for a pandemic”, he’d be dragged out of Parliament in a straightjacket.

Will we help each other? Hell, yes. I have neighbours who I wouldn’t trust with a 5 cent piece of candy. But, there are others with whom I must trust and who must trust me. Will I do so blindly, no. I know what is important and will not compromise on the safety of my family nor of my own.

Some of us get it, others don’t, despite the warnings, despite the plans, despite our appeals.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:02

Ottawa Guy – at 22:33

So you are preparing for 3 weeks, and yet you are saying that you can’t tell my 1000 staff to prepare for a year’s worth of food/supplies without some kind of basis in reality.

Again, you are using an extreme position which you know no one agrees to as public policy to deny the need to advise the public to prepare for a reasonable period. If you think it’s 2–3 weeks, who will call you crazy?

The message (say 2–3 weeks) need to be loud and clear, by PM Harper on TV. Please fix this outdated notion that WHO will announce phase 4 in time for anyone to do anything useful. The phase 4 trigger of pandemic action plan need to be replaced by something reflecting reality. I realize there is protocol, and you need to work within certain parameters, but you can do things in parallel, not like a deer freezing in the headlights. If it makes you feel better, just use Thailand and Indonesia as examples. They are not waiting for phase 4, they are working hard to bring every mitigation into the tool box. They know that if the WHO announces phase 4, it’s over. The WHO phases are going to be a follower, not a leader signal. Just like R0, which cannot be accurately determined until long after the pandemic is over.

The City of Toronto has a page that tells people how to build an emergency reserve over a period of 6 weeks. Guess what, to buy for 3 days. Because it’s only 3 days, every one thinks I have enough in my pantry, so no one will even do anything. Some thing similar but 2–3 weeks would be good. PM Harper can go on TV and say 2 weeks without problems. CDC is recommending that. That’s political cover. Will opposition dare say anything. I don’t think so.

Some of us get it, others don’t, despite the warnings, despite the plans, despite our appeals.

Does that bother you? They don’t get it because the government said everything is under control. Life goes on. What warnings, plans, appeals have the government of Canada stated clearly to the public? It’s time to be a leader, not a follower. And no, please do not follow the WHO, because we will end up in the ditch, literally, the mass grave kind.

In case you worry about business confidence, I will say investors will choose U.S. over Canada due to overall preparedness. Promotors can spin it now, but they won’t be able to spin it as pandemic approaches. The emperor has no clothes. The tide has turned. Don’t wait to be washed out to sea. Your are on your own. You heard it here.

gharris – at 23:14

BRAVO YYZ!!! Hear Hear!!

Ottawa Guy – at 23:19

ANON-YYZ – at 23:02

Whoa camel! Are you okay? Want to talk about stuff? I’m listening. Honestly, I can help. Are you employed with the feds? If so, I can find you the help you need. No, I’m not kidding, I can help you.

gharris – at 23:26

OG - How can you help?? Will you help?? Why not talk to Jack Layton - he would probably listen!!

Ottawa Guy – at 23:34

Jack Layton? Okay, this is getting stranger and stranger. Anon, gharris, you probably both own this thread so there isn’t anything I can say that won’t offend you. I’ll try another thread for honesty cause I won’t find it here. I have kids to send to school in the morning and I can’t afford to “play” right now.

And,yes, I can get you some supportive help if you need it.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:38

Ottawa Guy – at 23:19

I am just an individual prepper. I am not with any government agency. Every thing I learned is here and the news and public information. Just to be clear, I am not affiliated with any political party either. I just cannot sit here and wait for a potential tragedy to unfold, at least based on what is known to the public.

I am only one person. There’s a lot more people who need your help. If you do something about it, that’s the best help you can give us. You know there may not be much time left (and it may never happen - isn’t that hard?), don’t tie your own hands. Others within government must be faced with the same self-inflicted hurdles, if you do the right thing, they will also thank you, not only me.

ANON-YYZ – at 23:40

gharris – at 23:26

Please do not politicize this. There’s a lot of work. There is not enough time.

13 September 2006

ANON-YYZ – at 00:08

ANON-YYZ – at 23:02

Ottawa Guy – at 22:33

Ottawa Guy – at 23:19

You haven’t really responded to my post ANON-YYZ – at 23:02.

I would still like to hear your position about the need for Canadian government to recommend the populatin to prepare, possibly by stocking up something reasonable. I’ll leave it open as to what you would consider reasonable, which I would like to hear clearly from you.

Thank you.

Bronco Bill – at 00:30

Ottawa Guy – at 22:33 --- Look, I have to be a realist. I can’t tell my 1000 staff to prepare for a year’s worth of food/supplies without some kind of basis in reality.

I find that I have to agree with this statement. Even the US government has said “stock up for 3 days”, maybe “for up to 2–3 weeks”, but never said FOR A YEAR. If the gov’t won’t say for a year, then how can one man tell a thousand people that they need to stock up for that long?

MaMaat 00:37

Whoa

I think we can all agree that as it’s good for every individual and family to prepare as much as possible. Everyone has different budget and space constraints, different life circumstances, different levels of comfort.

I think we can all agree, that as individuals we have direct control ONLY over our individual actions. Some are in a position to exert influence over others, but even then there are limits. Pushing too hard too fast can have a negative effect. Pushing too hard can cause problems in both your personal and professional life. Pushing too hard can get you fired.

It doesn’t help anything to antagonize or insult each other over things that are, truly, not in our personal control. We’re all on the same team, right?

ANON-YYZ – at 00:42

Bronco Bill – at 00:30

No one suggested a year of preps as a government recommendation, by stating an obviously unreasonable level of preparation for the masses, Ottawa Guy is now able to avoid telling people to prep for even 4 days.

Just so you know, the Canadian government has no recommendation for preps for pandemic. The communicaton I hear so far is ‘we have experience with SARS, we know what we are doing, everything under control, don’t worry’. There is a general emergency preparedness recommendation of 3 days. It’s as though a pandemic should not be on the population’s radar screen.

I am still waiting for Ottawa Guy’s answer, with great interest.

Bronco Bill – at 00:56

ANON-YYZ – at 00:42 --- And in the past 30 days, what has any other gov’t said about BF? Nothing official. The Canadian preparedness plan says “get a shot, wash your hands, stay home if sick”. You’re right…no mention of stocking food or medicine. But if that’s the OFFICIAL stand of their government, the only way it will change is if the populace stands up and demands more. One person, under pressure from others in different nations, is not going to be able to answer your questions. If OG has prepped for 3 weeks, and is planning to prep for 3 months as he says, and is encouraging 1000 staffers to get started with their preps for 3 weeks, what more can he do?

ANON-YYZ – at 01:20

Bronco Bill – at 00:56

Thank you for your heart felt comments. Just in case it’s not clear, I did credit him for a good start,

 and 

Ottawa Guy,

if you are listening, any questioning is not directed at you personally or as one member of the government, but at the government as a whole. If you are unable to answer yet, we will understand that nothing has changed from what was known. I have not, cannot and will not fault you for your efforts. I can’t thank you enough for coming here.

However, a public policy is above and beyond being personal and ought to be debated without discomfort. By avoiding the debate of a policy question, I would not have afforded you an opportunity to present input from a member of the public (should you choose to) within the government, which in some situations may be useful.

Please accept my apologies for any remarks that may not be in line with your expectations.

Bronco Bill – at 01:27

ANON-YYZ – at 01:20 --- You and I have had our share of head-to-heads, but it’s always good when we can come to some semblance of understanding what the other is saying and shake hands. Thank you.

Tom DVM – at 10:52

ANON YYZ. I haven’t read any of the thread and your discourse with Ottawa Guy yet but I wanted to make a couple of comments…first about Ottawa Guy and then about you.

The first I have heard of Ottawa Guy was the other day when he started the Who are you…or whatever thread…

…what I greatly admire is that he could have come on this thread as Joe smuck from timbuktoo…but the point is that he came on the thread…acknowledged where he comes from and exactly what he does…

…such a disclosure without being asked is a measure for me of great integrity. There have been some lobbyists for goverments and agencies trying to influence flu wiki and for them, on the other hand, I have no respect.

We have all made mistakes on flu wiki…sometimes I have made what I thought was a harmless comment that others have understandably taken offense to but was not my intent and out of the context of my comments.

Ottawa Guy may have inadvertently said one thing and meant something totally different…I don’t know, I haven’t read it all…but I think his/her intent is an honourable one…especially since our opinions and the opinions of those from other countries have been quite consistent on governments and agencies and preparademess and scientic honesty.

You, ANON YYZ, have done amazing work on flu wiki. I know that and I hope you know that…and this community needs you to continue to participate if you can…I can’t say it any other way…and Thnaks.

To Ottawa guy…If you got to the level you are at in the Canadian Government then you are well experienced in these matters. I personally admire your full disclosure given the opinions on flu wiki…and I would like your opinions because on many issues as you have a unique viewing point of all this.

ANON-YYZ – at 15:03

Tom DVM – at 10:52

As a Canadian prepper, I was deeply troubled by the innuendo about survivalism, and it showed. Again, my apologies. I need to grow another layer of skin. Some one will get clear answers where I couldn’t. Thanks for the support.

Tom DVM – at 15:06

ANON YYZ. Excellent!!!!!! /:0)

Closed and Continued - Bronco Bill – at 16:13

As this thread is getting really long, it’s time to start fresh with Canadian Preppers 3

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