From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: H 5 N 1 in North America in 1985

19 July 2006

Okieman – at 22:57

Maybe this paper is one all the virologist are already familiar with, but just the abstract was an eye-opener for me since it indicates H5N1 (low path apparently) has been here since 1985. The site requires a registration and log-in which I have not checked out yet, but the abstract of the papers are available to anyone.

Applied & Environmental Microbiology. 49(4):914–9, 1985 Apr.

Epizootiology of avian influenza: effect of season on incidence in sentinel ducks and domestic turkeys in Minnesota.

Halvorson DA, Kelleher CJ, Senne DA

Sentinel ducks and domestic turkey flocks were monitored for influenza infection during a 4-year period. The onset of infection among ducks was similar each year, occurring in late July or early August. Influenza in turkeys was also shown to be seasonal, but the usual onset was 6 to 8 weeks after the detection of influenza in sentinel ducks. Possible explanations for the delayed infection in turkeys are (i) increased waterfowl activity associated with fledging and congregating in late summer and early fall; (ii) vectors transmitting virus from the waterfowl habitat to poultry farms; (iii) cooler environmental temperature, allowing prolonged virus viability; (iv) cooler surface water temperature, allowing prolonged virus viability; (v) groundwater contamination from contaminated surface water; and (vi) virus adaptation in domestic turkeys before infection is detected. We conclude that ducks are not only a natural reservoir of influenza but also have a seasonal infection! that appears to be related to seasonal influenza outbreaks in domestic turkeys in Minnesota. However, only some influenza A virus isolates circulating among waterfowl at any given time appear capable of causing detectable infection in turkeys. It is speculated that the seasonal infection in migratory waterfowl may also be related to seasonal influenza infections in other species including humans.

http://canarydatabase.org/record/3282?view=abstract

Also check out this abstract on the same site. If I have read it right there was a mixing of both domestic (purposefully H5N2 infected) and wild waterfowl in multiple locations. Makes one wonder what has been allowed to get loose. I guess the researchers at that time didn’t give too much thought about this issue.

http://canarydatabase.org/record/3284

Birdman – at 23:04

Okieman – at 22:57

Thanks for beginning this thread. I like the topic. Did you say H5N1 was discussed in the paper? I don’t that virus referenced in the abstract.

Okieman – at 23:06

I should have added that you should click on the “Related” tab when you follow the link and it shows the various influenza strains that were found/used.

Birdman – at 23:17

Okieman – at 23:06

Got it. Quite interesting, huh?

Okieman – at 23:20

Birdman,

I think so.

I tried to register on the site but kept getting an error when I tried to submit my info. I will try again later. I would like to read some of the papers they reference.

Birdman – at 23:35

Cool. And good luck.

The reason I would like to know about H5N1 in N or S America is that we have been telling our employees that the Bird Flu you have been reading about in the papers is a serious issue, but not to worry. It is the H5N1 virus that is the problem over in China and Indonesia, Viet Nam and Thailand. NA has its share of AI, but not H5N1.

Now if it turns out that we really do have H5N1 here, I have to then get into some really cumbersome details with folks about Low and High Path, and why it is not likely that this Low Path will mutate into High Path like that in Asia, even though Type A viruses are known to mutate and change sometimes quite dramatically over time.

It just gets so confusing, you lose your audience’s attention. I’m afraid they will look at me and others in management as if we don’t seem to have a clue about what we’re talking.(pretty much true, but I hate to admit it before my coworkers). I’m just afraid that it just all will sound so circular. I know nothing about these viruses are simple, but geeze, it’s hard to find an anchor anywhere.

Sorry for the belly aching. I just wish you wouldn’t drop these kind of bomb shells on the forum so late at night. Now I won’t be able to get to sleep. Oh, well.:-)

20 July 2006

glo – at 04:05

Birdman, I’ve been trying to get my head around this since April. Cognitive dissonance: what you know as personal knowledge and experience, and what you hear, don’t match up, causing intellectual and emotional discomfort and confusion. Confusion when you didn’t think you were confused… : ) Does that make sense?

The NorAm deal. I’ve been told over and over and over to not worry, by the same people who have a high level of concern and are freakin’ out over the Asian situation. I read the same journal as the one above, and more, and I’m not stupid. I’ve looked at sequences from a Brant goose in 1917 and tried comparing to the human samples from the 1918 pandemic and I’ve done a sequence search for something that matches and got a mallard duck from Alberta in 1998. [This is H1N1, not H5.] I just wanted to see what it looked like. I don’t know enough to know what I’m looking at. I ran out of time and didn’t finish it.

You may have already read these: If you’re interested, it’s NewInterestingFunTopic. I don’t know how to insert an internal link, but if you search the Forum, you’ll find it.

http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.AlaskaAndCanada

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200602/kt2006022417104011950.htm

On the old forum, I posted all the H5N1 in NorAm that I could find. The thread is gone. The problem is that I’ve not been able to find sequences to go with the reports. So there are very few sequences.

Canada and the US both have databases online for avian influenza tracking. They are accessible only with password and username. Canada has a report that shows sampling, but the info is abbreviated and with no virus identification.

I’m very tired, so not a good post, but wanted to get this done tonight.

NIGSP-OH-00051 Influenza A virus (A/mallard/Ohio/184/1986(H5N1)) USA 06-Nov-1986

Influenza A virus (A/duck/Minnesota/1525/81(H5N1))

Influenza A virus (A/gull/Pennsylvania/4175/83(H5N1)) Caused severe clinical disease and high mortality rates in chickens, turkeys, and guinea fowl. 17 million birds were culled. A serologically identical but apparently mild virus had been circulating in poultry in the area for 6 mo (see References: Beard 1998). No human cases were identified.

Influenza A virus (A/duck/Minnesota/ ? / ?(H5N1)) [Sept 1998–00]

 Total samplesH5 PositivesH7 PositivesConfirmed Subtypes
Alberta79600N/A
Atlantic717350Low Path North American H5N2
BC7041740Low Path North American H5N9
                                                      ||Low Path North American H5N2||
Manitoba54850Low Path North American H5N1
Ontarioa78690Low Path North American H5N1
Quebecba782280Low Path North American H5N3
AF0820431700Avian4(HA)H5N1USA1983Influenza A virus(A/gull/Pennsylvania/4175/83(H5N1))
DQ107466706Avian7(MP)H5N1USA1983Influenza A virus(A/gull/Pennsylvania/4175/83(H5N1))
U79453996Avian4(HA)H5N1USA1975Influenza A virus(A/mallard/Wisconsin/428/1975(H5N1))
U85380865Avian8(NS)H5N1USA1975Influenza A virus(A/mallard/Wisconsin/428/1975(H5N1))
AF0820401700Avian4(HA)H5N1USA1981Influenza A virus(A/duck/Minnesota/1525/81(H5N1))

H5 viruses low pathogenicity, Various sources >100 isolates -PQRETR*GLF- H5 viruses high pathogenicity

1994/5 Mexican isolates (H5N2) -PQRKRKTR*GLF-

Chicken/Scotland/59 (H5N1) -PQRKKR*GLF-

Tern/S. Africa/61 (H5N3) -PQRETRRRQKR*GLF-

Chicken/Pennsylvania/1370/83 (H5N2) -PQKKKR*GLF-

Turkey/England/50–92/91 (H5N1) -PQRKRKTR*GLF-

HK/156/97 (H5N1) [human] -PQRERRRKKR*GLF-

ck/HK/97 (H5N1) -PQRERRRKKR*GLF-

Poultry/Italy/97 (H5N2) -PQRRRKKR*GLF- a

Data taken from Genbank or viruses sequenced at VLA, Weybridge. Arginine ® and lysine (K) are basic amino acids.

Table 2, Reported HPAI isolates from poultry since 1959

A/chicken/Scotland/59 (H5N1)

A/turkey/England/63 (H7N3)

A/turkey/Ontario/7732/66 (H5N9)

A/chicken/Victoria/76 (H7N7)

A/chicken/Germany/79 (H7N7)

A/turkey/England/199/79 (H7N7)

A/chicken/Pennsylvania/1370/83 (H5N2)

A/turkey/Ireland/1378/83 (H5N8)

A/chicken/Victoria/85 (H7N7)

A/turkey/England/50–92/91 (H5N1)

A/chicken/Victoria/1/92 (H7N3)

A/chicken/Queensland/667–6/94 (H7N3)

A/chicken/Mexico/8623–607/94 (H5N2)

A/chicken/Pakistan/447/94 (H7N3)

A/chicken/NSW/97 (H7N4)

A/chicken/Hong Kong/97 (H5N1)

A/chicken/Italy/330/97 (H5N2)

D.J. Alexander / Veterinary Microbiology 74 (2000) 3±13

glo – at 04:18

In 1994, Mexico had outbreaks of low path avian influenza (H5N2) causing disease in chickens. 7 months later, HPAI H5N2 was isolated. “It seemed highly likely that the original virus of low pathogenicity had mutated to virulence…” (Alexander 2000)

niman – at 08:25

The earlier H5′s from North America really are quite distinct from H5N1 from Asia, including the Qinghai strain, which probably is now on North America, but has arrived within the past 12 months.

birdman – at 10:02

glo – at 04:05

Fantastic information, glo. Thanks for your contribution under less than ideal times and conditions. Very much appreciated.

Now the two No. Am. H5N1 sequences that stand out to me are the ‘83 Penn and the ‘81 Minn. According to the GenBank sequence posted, both are clearly avian viruses and Low Path, so no harm, no foul. But my concern is that if the gull or duck had infected a flock of domestic chickens, both of those H5N1 viruses might have become High Path, at least as to the chickens. And then it goes on from there as to whether any humans that might be exposed and get infected, have no symptoms, just get the “pink eye”, or fall over dead in eight to ten days.

So, I have a question. Can you, or anyone else reading these posts, explain how a Low Path virus like the ones you listed, accumulate additional, multiple basic amino acids at the HA01 cleavage site? I take it that occurs when the HA segment is actually cleaved during reproduction. Correct? But is this change in pathogenicity due to single point mutations, or something else in the life cycle of the virus?

Sorry for all the questions, but this has really got my curiosity up now that glo has shown us DATA, not just comment, that H5N1 is alreay here.

glo – at 17:30

Niman, I appreciate your wisdom and experience and I’m very sure that you are one of those mad-scientist-genius-illuminati-Mensa types who are frequently denied their highly unconventional discoveries and fight for validation. Not to mention funding.

As above: “…really cumbersome details…about Low and High Path, and why it is not likely that this Low Path will mutate into High Path like that in Asia…”

This is a different line of thinking and it’s not about how, it’s about what. It’s about linear progressive collective logic, rather than circular to prove theory. It’s perfectly okay if you’re not onboard with this and don’t understand the questions.

I self-instruct and listen carefully and ask questions because how may lead to what. But I have a job, an 80 mile commute and a kid. There’s no financial gain, this is my free time, I’m allowed to think whatever I want (same as everyone else) and no, I’m not “prepping”, this isn’t about saving my children’s lives, I absolutely will take care of my brother and his children and others, family and friend, and yes, I will continue to function for EMS/other medical assistance - you betcha. Did I cover it?

Our tradition and heritage:

1. Stronger and wiser help the weaker

2. Never, ever leave anyone behind

3. No whining on long journeys by sled

4. Strength in numbers, and alone is okay too

NorAm H5N1: yes, I KNOW. Asian H5N1: OF COURSE it’s in NorAm. How could it not be?

18 September 2006

Closed - Bronco Bill – at 00:07

Closed to maintain Forum speed.

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