Early this summer I was actually laughed at by a PULMONARY specialist from Childrens Hospital. She said that bird flu is not something we ever have to think about because it isn’t even here, it is in far away unsanitary places, and nobody here even talks about it.
Then I went to my own doctor and asked about it while I was there because I want a pneumonia shot for my husband who gets it many times (or one long one they don’t cure?) each winter. According to him, Bird flu is no concern and the pneumonia shot only helps with 24 (I think) types of pneumonia and would do nothing if the pneumonia that is triggered is not one of those. I personally would rather at least be protected against some types than none at all!!!
Finally, yesterday, at my pediatricians office, they aren’t talking about it either!!! Although they quickly changed the subject and I wondered if they aren’t supposed to discuss it? What is wrong with these people? These are the people I depend upon for support with my husband and daughter’s pulmonary issues and they seem to know nothing…or at least they aren’t saying anything.
I have seen articles quoted from respected medical journals and papers, so surely these professionals must see some of them. If the Department of Public Health is telling schools to prepare (and they are, I was present) then why does the medical community seem so uninformed? Come to think of it, I have the presenters contact info, I think I’ll ask her that question and will let you know what she says on the issue.
Are others having the same issue?
When I went to my Dr. last month I did mention it to her and I was told not to worry about it, and then one nurse tooked at me so discusted and said, “it’s all just a big hype, that there is no such thing. All this from the medical profession?????
Haven’t been to a doctor to ask. Interesting. It just seem’s that they don’t want the economy to shut down over nothing. It may not come at all! Good on you for asking the question tho, otherwise you’ll never ever know. Remind’s me of when I posed the question to a science forum the other day. Oh well…it’s all good. Just let’s your mind work on the reality…why it it so?
Yes many others are having the same issues and to keep from seeming like a jaded bitch I will comment no more.
Members of the medical profession may be differentiating between “bird flu” and “pandemic flu” in terms of what they consider likely to happen. My doctor’s office has been planning what to do in the event of a pandemic.
We have had long discussions about this in the past. I settled on three factors for this phenomenon:
They are too busy to be informed as well as we are on the subject.
They are trained to at first discount “worst-case” scenarios and to look for more likely causes (or outcomes) when looking at any problem. (And that protocol generally serves them well).
If you think this is our worst nightmare, think about what it means for a health care practitioner. It is just too awful to contemplate for many of them. You think we have problems!
A degree in medicine or veterinary medicine or any other kind of medicine for that matter…is not a degree in good sense or intelligence or a measure of common sense for that matter…
…If this was going to be a close miss by the viral asteroid (as Medical Maven likes to put it)…it would have missed in 1997–99,2000–2006…
…The point is that it is entrenched…it’s not going away…and it will impact our lives directly…
…the question is how big an impact will it be!!
When you are playing follow the leader…and you have to go down the dark alley…don’t follow a doctor. /:0)
My DH works with a number of doctors, and his opinion is that they are trained to be “reactive” and not “proactive.” In other words, we’ll deal with the problems in front of us and deal with those other problems when they arrive. Also they’re all such specialists now that they sometimes even dismiss the practices of other doctors as irrelevant. I agree with you Tom DVM. The doctors are not going to give us direction or leadership for this particular issue.
I agree with Medical Maven and Tom DVM.
First of all, there are some doctors (medicine or veterinary), nurses, and HCWs who are trying their hardest to inform others and help. Many are on this site trying to help.
Secondly, many doctors simply are not as well informed as we are on Fluwiki. Therefore, they can’t give appropriate advice.
Thirdly, those doctors who are informed but are not helping, are seeing a nightmare approaching (as Medical Maven has said). They are frightened because they know they can’t help everyone—it is too enormous a problem. I believe they protect themselves (protect their minds from the visions they contemplate) by not talking about it. They just shut down.
Trying to get information as to how to protect yourself in this coming pandemic needs to be approached as every topic that needs understanding. If you can’t get the answers that you want from you first source (doctors in this case), try other sources, Internet, friends, books, etc.
Many of us have had the same reaction from relatives, friends, neighbors, and yes, doctors unfortunately.. Bottom line, YOYO! Your On Your Own, for those new to fluwikie jargon. Thank God there are a few folks out there that are aware and are trying there best to inform and educate. IMHO, people like Dr. Woodson are saints, along with a number of others in high position who are trying to educate even though their efforts may not be officially sanctioned by TPTB. And of course many of fluwikie’s own!
Most doctors get their information from the CDC. If the CDC says not to worry, then they don’t worry. If the CDC told doctors to start preparing, this is serious, then they would start preparing. You can infer what message they are receiving.
The other source of information for doctors is State Health departments. These vary widely in how serious they take the possibility that at a pandemic will occur. In some states, health care professionals are making very serious preparations, in others they are doing nothing. Again, you can infer the message doctors are getting from their state Health Departments by their response to your questions.
I had a doctor tell me that worrying about bird flu was irrational because there was no vaccine for it and if it came here we were all going to die so whats the point of worrying? (Hows THAT for bedside manner?)
On the other end- a high-up for a health dept for a major city said she didn’t beleive there would be any pandemic. What does she base this on? she “just knows” and yet staff working at the health department have been fitted for masks.
My HCP readily agrees to give me the pneumonia vaccine-but is extreamly reluctant to give it to my kids-although one has asthma. Would not consider a script for tamiflu.
Aside from the fact that most people’s (including docs) time, money and attention are already spoken for, I think non-concern re bird flu is due in large part to the lack of coverage by MSM. One of the E.R. docs my spouse works with (and harps on) recently asked him: ‘’If H5N1 is such a threat, then why don’t I ever hear anything about it on the news? Hmmm?”
Which of course calls for the ever-strident and increasingly hysterical-sounding responses re Indonesia, 1918, pig die-offs, the WHO, our just-in-time supply system, China, Chan, Flu Wiki, Webster, Nabarro, Niman, Goju and his conference, high CFR’s, cytokine storms, etc.--all this in an attempt to validate what we are saying, which, to people too busy to bother doing research on their own, does sound completely ridiculous considering the fact they are hearing nothing of the sort from any of the sources that traditionally have looked out for our interests.
Ma-Mom – at 10:45 Don’t give up!I got a script by claiming I was a nervous wreck. Not even from my regular doc. I will also ask mine ,I will see him soon . He also told me last time I was there that he is heading up some committee for the flu. He is at Emory and is right next door to the CDC. Also I have learned to argue w/ the docs , take some stats w/ you when you go and ask him how he can justify not giving you a script. Good Luck
Ma-mom: if you want a pneumonia vax and your doc won’t do it, try a walk-in clinic. As long as you’re paying, they’re stabbing. If they ask, just say you are taking care of an imuno-supressed patien who is undergoing chemo, etc.
In terms docs in general, I’ve seen it all over the board - a few think it’s a real issue (but haven’t prepped themselves) to “it will never happen.” This includes friends who are physicians. One won’t eat red-meat because of BSE but isn’t worried about H5N1! ???? I think in many regards docs are like the rest of us - they are very busy, focused on the tasks at hand, not what might be coming down the road (“reactive” vs “pro-active” as History Lover said).. They also don’t want to start thinking about the potential ramifications because it can be too overwhelming. Easier to bury your head in the sand and keep on moving along.
Try leaving them some printed, dated word (and remember what SaddleTramp said, about “frightened horses will not stop and drink, no matter how thirsty”?..Oh well, you tried.)
WHO: Ten things you need to know about pandemic influenza Oct, 2005
US Govt. Health Care Planning:… “Health care providers will play a crucial role in the event of a pandemic. Planning for pandemic influenza is key. The following checklists, toolkit, and guidelines will assist health care providers and service organizations in planning for a pandemic outbreak.”… http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/tab6.html
Ma-Mom – at 10:45 Are others having the same issue?
Yes and no. Everyone in our house has received the pneumovax. My doc was the easiest, although his nurse told me she isn’t prepping or worried at this point. Our pediatrician was happy to give the kids the pneumovax. My husband’s doc’s nurse gave my husband the run around for two weeks. Have to check with the doc. Your insurance might not pay. Blah, blah, blah. The doc was fine giving my husband the pneumovax and then proceeded to tell him he’s leaving in December to spend a year in China!
Tom DVM – at 11:27 A degree in medicine or veterinary medicine or any other kind of medicine for that matter…is not a degree in good sense or intelligence or a measure of common sense for that matter…
Yup. My stepsister, for one. She’s an RN. When I started sending out words of warning to my family, she hit “Reply All” and invited us all to be the first to visit her backyard chicken coop. She thinks the entire thing is baloney promoted by liberal hysteria.
Is “SSRN” calling Michael O. Leavitt a hysterical liberal? ;-)
well acording to birds.. It is a hysteria.. but one with two sides.. one. it will not be like “The Birds”, so the hype has been big. Two, as we know, it may turn into a pandemic.. and the hype should be replaced with good old social information campaigns. Probably the medic people do their job. To keep people not worrieng them sick. If its not their job to do public warnings, then it makes sence.. But if people want to get mecial advice, they should do their job and tell the facts, lets hope they know them.
Ma-Mom - I got a “much ado about nothing” comment from my childs’ asthma specialist. She pretty much just patted me on the head and told me that there was nothing to worry about, that H5N1 was not going to become pandemic flu. I sure would like to see the crystal ball she’s gazing into for that profound pronouncement.
On the other hand, my dogs’ vet said that influenza was always worrisome whenever it jumped species and that being informed and prepared was our best protection.
I mentioned H5N1 to a friend, who’s spouse is a doctor, and she had no idea what I was talking about, and when I tried to explain what I was talking about, she changed the subject rather abruptly.
H5N1 may not become pandemic influenza, but to say it WILL not and there is nothing to worry about is advice that could hurt people, IMHO.
Now I know why our vet is my favorite doctor;-)
Sad to say but many doctors, particularly in the age of HMOs, have Major Egotistical Attitude and have no problem dismissing your concerns and smirking in your face. Doctors like things that they can control. They do not like feeling helpless. They do not like being reminded that they are only human. They get used to having their way with everything and everybody because our culture worships them. So they split off information that they don’t want to deal with (as evidenced by their many failed marriages).
I know this is a harsh assessment. I know there are good doctors out there, like Woodson. I’ve just seen a lot of really cold, arrogant people in the profession.
I wouldn’t blame the Docs too much. I really do think if they get a strong message from their PTB in infectious diseases, the CDC and the State Health Department, they will take panflu seriously.
Tom DVM – at 11:27 A degree in medicine or veterinary medicine or any other kind of medicine for that matter…is not a degree in good sense or intelligence or a measure of common sense
The Acute Neuro Rehab unit in which I worked as an RN was known for the independent spirit of the nurses there. The basket on top of the counter where physicians placed charts after writing prescriptions was labeled “Doctors’ Requests” instead of “Doctors’ Orders.” We loved our Physiatrists but did not suffer gladly the other MDs who cared for our patients. It was common for a nurse there to make a comment, after a non-Rehab MD left our unit, “Always remember that 50% of the physicians in practice graduated in the bottom half of their class.”
I also think that HCWs face a worse dilemma than others in that they need to choose between self preservation and their patients. For some of these docs, these relationships are long-term. Our pediatrician, for example, has been caring for my children for nearly 11 years. He knows our family story, has seen my kids grow physically, intellectually, emotionally. Now multiply that by an entire practice and imagine how crappy you’d feel if you knew these people were relying on you and that, when push comes to shove, there may be little to nothing you can do for them—or that your impulse is to close your practice and SIP with your own children “turning your back” on your patients. Talk about conflicted emotions. Easier not to face it for lots of them I suspect.
Physicians are notorious for working long hours of necessity and, therefore, working tired. It is hard to think “out of the box” when you are constantly harried and tired. It is a wonder that there are not more mistakes.
So as Monotreme pointed out physicians let somebodyelse do their thinking for them when they can.
And they have been assaulted by patients with so many health scares that they are jaded.
How could you, the patient, be ahead of the game when the WHO, the CDC, and the State Health Department are not trumpeting this threat loudly and long? Exhausted physicians are boxed-in by disingenuous and enfeebled organizations. There is plenty of blame to go around.
There’s also the burden of the daily grind. A friend is a P.A. and she sees lots of folks everyday and typically stays late into the evening to get all the proper paperwork done. She doesn’t have time or energy to spend on something that is a “maybe” — even if it looks like a strong “maybe”-- I wish CDC WOULD get its act together and start ringing the alarm bell at least enough so general practioners know how to address questions.
I encountered a surgeon from our local healt-care organization last July and asked his opinion. His response was basically “nothing to worry about, more people died from the swine flu vaccine than from avian influenza”. Perhaps he was confused since 25 people died from the swine flu vaccine, which is more than died from swine flu. But he seemed dismissive and uninterested anyway.
I ask my Pulmonary doc last month about getting Tamiflu and he said he could do it but it’s better to wait till it’s in this country. He did give me additional scripts so I could have lots of extra meds on hand. Saw my Primary doc yesterday and ask him about Tamiflu and he said he could give me a script but the med has a expiration on it of one yr. Best to wait till later this year or early next year. He did give me a script for Levithin antibiotic and didn’t date it so I could get it filled anytime. Strong med of 750MG too. Neither of these 2 docs laughed at me and both took the situation seriously. ‘ I’m lucky to have these guys.
Hi new name. I really like quotes and names…I was wondering what your old name was./:0)
I’m a critical care nurse, I have worked in an Intensive Care Unit since 1989, I have had very conflicted feelings the last several years over what I will do when TSHTF. I have been trying to be very proactive with all my co-workers, including the docs I work with. The hospital I work for has ignored me for the last several years when I try to discuss a posible pandemic, and what plans the hospital has (NONE). Our old infection control nurse left ( she was knowledable regarding AF) and for awhile I at least thought we had a chance at a productive plan of action…enter the new nurse….she now rolls her eyes every time she sees me and I know she thinks “there goes that wacko nurse” who bothers me every time I see her! Recently she told me (finally) that she will not lose any sleep over worrying about AF…and I (finally) told her…NO but what you will lose is NURSES!! She looked at me and walked off. Now let me also say I have given my pandemic preparedness list to anyone and everyone who has an open hand…including my patients for quite awhile now. Our central supply does not have PPE’s for more than a week on hand in any case of emergency or influx of patients. No one seems concerned about this (again our “just in time delivery” way of life)no matter how many times I point out they will lose 50% of staff the first week from fear & lack of PPE’s. We have a 10 bed ICU with 23 nurses and I know at least 11 will not come in as soon as TSHTF..myself included, this may seem horrible to many people, but believe me I have worked for years around just about every type of infectious disease you can think of (and have more than done my duty) I feel betrayed by my hospital by their lack of concern for our welfare and their complete disregard over even the possibility of a pandemic! I have surveyed most of the docs I work with, half do not know any thing about it, another 1/4 laugh at you and the remainder are somewhat concerned. I had only one doctor really interested & took my list. I don’t blame the doctors…as stated above they are just like the rest of us…and even busier, but I have come to have very conflicted feelings regarding TPTB where I work. WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE MEETING REGARDING AF!! No matter how many times I have offered to help with any info. I have kids at home and a husband who do care…and that is whrere I will be.
TXNurse: I understand your frustration. I felt it for some time at my hospital. I finally asked “Does anyone know/care about this?” And they did! We (the lowly ones -non-management types) have not been informed yet, but management level has seen the plan. (I have seen it, because I asked) They have already rolled out the “Wash your hands, sneeze and cough routine”. I assume they will start talking more next month during our routine yearly inservice/signup for healthcare/state of things meeting. If not, I’ll ask questions. Hospitals have emergency plans to start from, so adapting to pandemic plans shouldn’t be that hard to get started (the starting is hard). Even our other hospital is on it. I saw one of their folks this summer at our local meeting to get businesses prepped. A worker in supply mentioned how stacked up everything was, an opening I used to ask questions. They have stocked up on PPE and supplies. I know there is not enough (there can’t be) but it’s a start. I have told my dept. and most listened. I have told my friends and most have now listened. I have even talked to some patients and they have listened. All of which brought by PPF down. I saw my GYN and got a pat on the head, don’t worry. Will see my GP soon and will ask there. I expect better, and have my fingers crossed. Keep trying where you are. Every person who hears, is one less to worry about. And I’m glad you have your priorities straight - take care of your kids. They are our future.
Like the man said above …
Either the Docs don’t think it will happen (The Titanic is Unsinkable!)
Are more focused on daily issues … smoking, obiesity, diabetes, etc. .. (We’ve got a cruise ship to run here dontcha know …)
Or if they believe it might happen, it’s just too big to think about (There are not enough lifeboats anyway …)
As was said above … You Are On Your Own.
PS - Most Tamiflu Rx have a LISTED 4 year expiration Date stamped on the box .. Department Of Defense (US DOD) testing has indicated that *many* medicines have a much longer shelf life then the listed expiration date …
TXNurse - Rock ON … If the officers of the Titanic don’t think enough of the probability of icebergs to sufficient lifeboats, lifeboat practice etc. …
Fortune favors the prepared & the prepared mind ..
as always, Annonx2
Edna Mode – at 18:49, I agree.
TXNurse, all the best to you and yours, and your colleagues, and patients. You’ve been doing your jobs.
However, the people in paid positions of public trust who are gambling everyone’s lives on a high impact situation by not wanting to treat the public like they can handle information and be part of a mitigation instead of part of a catastrophe…
Best to use an exmaple to explain my point of view. If your 8 year old child came to you to discuss bird flu how much would you tell, how honest would you be and how do you explain why you aren’t 100% foreright with your information. I think it’s because you don’t want to panic, overwhelm or over-inform an impressional individual. Same for any topic you hold back on. Most medical people feel they have the knowledge and experience therefore they’ll dose out information and scripts based on the average adult having the capabilities of an eight year old. Gives them power and strokes their ego.
when i mentioned bird flu to my Dr she said “Be afraid….be very afraid” She’s on a planning commitee regarding it
When was this, Woodstock?
New Name - Tamiflu does not have an expiration of one year - that’s just an arbitrary thing that a lot of pharmacies do, is put that the script expires a year after it was filled. Tamiflu should be good for a minimum of five years after it is made . . . my doctor wrote our scripts last fall and we filled them then, the Tamiflu cartons we have carry a date of 12/07 on them. I figure they’d be good for at least a year or two past that date as well.
I’ve polled 4 MD’s now. Two are my personal doctors, and two are doctors my elderly father is seeing. Three of the 4 know I’m a retired medic. One does not.
The results?
Two are extremely concerned (my doctors). They have both been very accomodating about Rx’s, one insisted on writing Tamiflu for me. I didn’t have to ask.
One of my Dad’s doc’s is moderately concerned, and wrote extra cardiac Rx’s for my Dad to `tide him over’ a pandemic. He also felt prepping for food shortages was `prudent’. He has relayed that opinion to other patients, as well.
And the fourth, an oncologist, dismissed it. He, btw, was the one doctor that was unaware of my medical background.
I suspect being a retired medic makes me a member of the `club’, and therefore doctors are more apt to talk openly to me. Fair? Hardly, but it does seem to be true. One of my doctors `spilled his guts’ about his concerns once I brought up H5N1. We talked at least 30 minutes. His father was a doctor in India in 1918, and he grew up hearing stories of the pandemic.
The incredulous oncologist battles cancer every day, and I suspect to him, anything that isn’t going to kill his patients today is relegated to the back burner. Sad, but sorta understandable.
Like any other cross section of society, doctors come in all flavors. Some are arrogant, some are not. Most are terribly overworked and overwhelmed. It is not easy being a doctor these days.
Back in the 1970′s we used to see a phenonomon called the Marcus Welby Syndrome’. For those that don’t remember, the 1970′s was a time when medical TV shows filled the airwaves. Medical Center, Emergency, and Marcus Welby, to name a few. Each week, we’d see patients come into the ER convinced they had whatever the `disease of the week’ on Marcus Welby was.
People are impressionable. And doctors, being aware of that, tend to dismiss the `disease of the week’. Some doctors, I fear, view Avian Flu as the disease of the week, and therefore resort to debunking it.
Shortsighted, I know. But there you go.
The good news is, more doctors are begining to talk about this. Not nearly enough, and not openly enough, but I do see a shift in perception.
If you do have a chance to talk openly to a doctor, one who is following this, you see a dark look come over them. This is every doctor’s nightmare. They look at their staff and wonder if they can ask them to risk exposure, they look at their local hospitals and wonder how they will ever cope with the patients, they think of their families, and their patients, and know how little they can really do for them against H5N1.
The bottom line I believe is: More doctors are worried about this than will freely admit to it. They know they have very limited abilities to deal with it if it comes. And many have simply elected to `not worry’ their patients about something they believe can not be controled.
Wrongheaded? Yes, in my opinion it is. I’d much prefer open discussion. Real debate. And facing this threat head on. I just fear we are unlikely to see that until the monster is at the door.
So , would I be right in saying, the advice you received was simply to keep your eyes peeled: meaning there wasn’t much to do.
…did he have anything to say regarding methods of social distancing?
Just ask yout doctor if he/she has tamiflu stocked for their family and staff…..I asked three doctors and all said Yes!
Clawdia 2:03 on Sept 17
Hate to worry you Clawdia - but in Canada if a product has an expiry date of 12/07 on it, we would take that to mean December 2007 - I think the US may be the only country that dates things with the month first? i.e. 9/11 - except for the fact that we all know that the tragedy happened on Sept 11, Canadians wd read that as November 9. I would ask your pharmacist where your Tamiflu was manufactured and what the ‘date protocol’ is for that country.
In summary, most doctors are getting some info and some are worried but most don’t want to cause panic. Some will give scripts for Tamiflu. My doc said she’ll retire if it comes to SHTF. Another doc was very non-committal but gave me the pneumovax. I guess they consider the State health departments should be onto this, not them.
I’m going to my pediatrician today to have my 7-year old vaccinated with pneumovax. I have tried talking with her (pediatrician) about a possible pandemic before and she dismissed the possibility with a laugh. I have decided to try again today, and want to print out some information from a respectable source for her to read. What do you all recommend? Is there anything better than the WHO “Ten things…” document? Something short (no longer than one page), ideally in bulleted points, addressing the main facts and rebutting the typical responses of sceptics? Would appreciate any suggestions.
delphina – at 03:34
Print out the checklist for HCW’s at panflu.gov
pandemicflu.gov
Oremus, thanks for the suggestion. Anyone else have an idea?
Earlier in the year at a PTA meeting I raised the question of what the school had planned regarding pandemic flu. Before the headmaster (who incidentally was very polite, very concerned but explained that until they received orders from TPTB they could not do anything) could answer another parent who is a doctor laughed at me and said that it was all a load of nonsense and that if the flu came here there would be some people ill but that it would not be enough to warrant closing the school. This I put down to a) arrogance b) a complete misreading of the situation and c)more arrogance.
A year ago I raised the question about H5N1 with my local GP, contrary to what I have read from most above, he was quite honest and up front. To my request for Tami flu for the family (he thought that was a prudent request as it was his opinion that Tami Flu would be difficult to obtain shortly (2005) . He said if a pandemic occurred he would be unable to put his family at risk by attending the practice. (Having a family I could understand that.)
delphina - at 04:41:
You can print out this article in today’s News Thread (excerpt):
Wellington - The World Health Organization (WHO) ‘warned on Tuesday of an increasing threat of an influenza pandemic and said it was imperative that states prepared to deal with it.
It also called for urgent steps to prepare to battle emerging infectious diseases, such as avian influenza and SARS (severe acute respiratory syndrome).
Many countries and areas did not have the required national and local capacities to avoid serious health threats with potential to cause substantial economic and social disruption, the WHO warned in a statement from a regional conference being held in Auckland.
‘Many health systems were undermanned and under-resourced when SARS struck, causing great human suffering, enormous fear and staggering economic losses,’ Dr Richard Nesbit, acting regional director for the western-Pacific, said.
He said countries should not only have plans to deal with an immediate outbreak but public health officials must focus on the mid- and long-term battle against infectious diseases.
http://tinyurl.com/zuqfu and http://tinyurl.com/ktroj)
My Dh’s doctor (at a federal clinic) at a Indian college told him that they do have a plan, part of which includes using large public buildings on campus as “hospitals” for sick students.
For a quick handout to people, I have used anon_22′s post at this thread, it appeared at 23:18 on 8 Sep, and the references are shortly thereafter at 00:03 on 9 Sep. The eight major points will fit on one page, the refs will have to go on a second page. I keep this piece in a word file if copies are ever needed.
Thanks again to anon_22 for posting it!
One other thought, I tell people the document mentioned above comes from a physician.