During Sip, will it be safe to venture outside? Be it to hang laundry, walk the dog, sit on the back porch to have coffee, or even to open windows to let in the fresh air? Will these simple acts put us in harms way of this horrific Virus? Even though it is said that the H5N1 Virus travel via droplets and not air, I must wonder (as mentioned in another thread) if it will hitch a ride on pollen particles, etc. How much more at risk are we when we decide to go outdoors? Can we still get Bf if we SIP (total isolation)? I know it betters our odds, but to what degree?
Sorry guys & gals, I have had a couple of bad nights, bad nightmares about my 5 year old, he has Asthma and a simple cold could very easily become a trip to hospital with pneumonia. He is on Pulmacort and albuterol breathing treatments. He caught a cold this week at School ( first year) so needless to say, my mind has gone crazy with BF thoughts. My PPF is at an 8 today, so forgive me if my questions seem foolish.
Hey I have wonder this MANY times…thank you for asking.
I was REALLY worried about the same thing for awhile. My main concern was from birds though, cause we live very rurally so my main concern was bird poo. Then someone (don’t remember who) said “if it was that easy to catch from birds we would have alot more deaths now than we do”
It’s very hard to catch the virus from birds.
Now if your worried about catching the virus from people, I can’t really help you there.
Just like Carrey stated @ 19:45, I would be not too concerned about catching from birds, as from catching from humans. That for all of us is the weak area, and the one that we all are most vulnerable. How one decides to help keep that from happening (catching flu from another person or an object that has been contaminated with the virus), is the battle that one will have to fight all the time. I for one and my wife have sat and worked out our plans but I do not think most people have.
Hey, here’s more info for you from previous threads on the same topic!
Try these 2 threads first to see if they give a good assessment of SIP:
Will Prepping and Isolating Work Anyway Part 2 (I couldn’t open Part 1)
or
Parts I II and III of SIP-a Solution or a Problem
Not worried about the birds, worried about the virus taking a piggy back ride from the person who coughs across the street. It is said they live for 4 days in the air.
MAV in Colorado – at 15:44 Personal isolation absolutely works! As long as the isolation is absolute- “there is no such thing as immaculate infection”
IWOI, I read the last links you posted, still did not find an answer….above is one such example. It does not answer my questions….”absolute isolation” again, does that mean you do not go outdoors…PERIOD.?
NoFluingAround, I think alot would depend on your personal immediate enviorment. I’m not asking for details about where you live, you can assess that yourself- if you’re in a rural area there might not be any neighbors for miles- if you’re in the suburbs or a small town the houses are fairly close together, but there’s still usually a bit of space between them- if you’re in a city houses are often very close together and apartments or row houses are another story altogether. IMO the degree of risk is dependant on how many people are nearby and how closely they are packed. More people, higher probability of encountering an infected person, and so more precautions. In a city I wouldn’t step out the door without mask and gloves and clothing I could shed before entering my home(in an area set aside to ‘decontaminate’).
Goodness…I was thinking that I could at least sit on the back porch, while being in the city. I may have to rethink the program…
MaMa What do you think about the open windows?
Mama, I live in the suburbs, so, no going outside without PPE…Gotcha :o)
I guess no open windows either, and a uv air purifier in each room.
no name, I would think that open windows not close to the sidewalk or the street would be fine, better yet on a second floor. That’s just my opinion of course.
To me, the general idea is to minimize risk. Unless we’re all going to live in a sealed bubble you can’t have zero risk in a pandemic. All you can do is take reasonable precautions based on your personal situation.
NoFluingAround at 20:35, well I wouldn’t anyway:-)
Seriously though, I’m not sure where it is but I’ll peek around a little later and try to find how long the virus can live on surfaces, etc. It’s quite awhile but I don’t remember the exact details.
I have to go soon, I’ve been informed by my son that I’ve monopolized the computer for long enough today:-)
If you live in an area that is not “density-challenged”, that is, neighbors one on top of the other, there should be no problem sitting on your back porch, or working in your garden, or even working in the front yard. The measured distance of a human sneeze is about 10–15 feet. If you neighbor across the street, who is probably a good 100 feet or more away, sneezes, the virus isn’t going to hang around in mid-air waiting for you to come outside. The reason farms and ranches are currently being quarantined for up to 2 miles in every direction is not because the virus itself might blow downwind. It’s because the dried chicken droppings that may be infected turn to dust and get blown away. In a large city, The likelyhood of catching H5N1 from bird droppings is close to nil.
You cannot lock your house up from the inside, shutter all the windows, and not go out into the sunlight for months on end. Humans need sunlight to survive. On top of that, they need fresh air. The neighbor across the street is likely NOT going to infect you if you take social distancing precautions. As for the virus living in the air for 4 days? It’s heavier than air, therefore it will drop to the ground.
If the virus mutates to a human-to-human strain, the least of our worries will be chickens…
DUH!!! That was me at 21:12! Cookies?!? Bah! Humbug!
BB, thank you for the reassurance:o)
If the chicken droppings infected with virus are not so heavy to get blown around then why is virus alone heavier than air and can not be blown around? A grain of sand is heavier than a virus. Chicken dropping dust is heavier than a virus. Pollen is heavier than a virus. They all get blown around. Why can’t a virus. There are studies that have shown that a virus can travel for more than a mile.
Any way. If you believe that the virus needs the chicken dropping dust to travel, wouldn’t any old dust do? Does it have to specifically be chicken dropping dust? When I open my windows, dust covers everything in my house in one day. Especially pollen. Why couldn’t the virus hitch a ride on some of that dust? It doesn’t make sense that it can travel on chicken poop dust, but is to heavy to travel alone or on ordinary dust.
In an apartment building, I’d venture our ago-old enemy the cockroach will be tracking nasty little presents between walls and floors, and have since I first looked at my situation. Hence, bug out means a whole new thing if this mess blows up. Even if you don’t see them, odds are a CMU building over 5 years old has a few.
The thing about chicken droppings is the quantity. If most of a flock has birdflu, their droppings would have huge quantities of virus, and chickens make a lot of droppings,and their beaks are drippy too, adding to the mess. But a few people sneezing would produce lesser quantities in any given vicinity, I’d expect. JMO.
People have written about spray bottles with herbal essences like lavender to spritz around, and homemade inhalers to use frequently with eucalyptus, menthol and other herbs. Do you think they would help?
prepmaniac – at 21:41
My guess is that they are quarentining sick farms more to keep other chickens,in other farms, from getting sick. Not so much fear of infecting people.
Remember that most of the people infected from birds are practically sleeping in the same room with them, or handling dead birds ect.
Also, To be safe from the virus, you would not need to lock your house from the inside, shutter all the windows, and not go into the sun for months on end. No one said that should be done. The precautions that should be taken are to avoid going outside on cloudy cool days when the virus is known or suspected in your area. If it is a hot, sunny day and there is no one in your town that is sick, I think you are perfectly safe to go outside if you have distance from your neighbors. The virus can not live long in the sun. On the other hand, if you know that there are people in your town who are sick and it is a cool, cloudy day, I would not go outside if I had a lot of close neighbors. I would wait for a sunny day and hope that all sick people are inside. I would keep a check on my friends and neighbors to see if any one nearby is sick. Not 100%. But helpful. You can still have sunlight come into your house without an open widow. Just open the curtains. To enjoy the freash air and sunlight I would go outside so that if there is a virus around,my chance of encountering it will be once while I am outside rather than have it be inside with me where the chance that I touch it and infect myself with it is greater. I do not think these precautions are extreme or unreasonable. They are simple measures that could save your life. Also I would always wear gloves outside to remind myself not to touch my face just in case I touch a surface that has live virus on it. The virus can live in water or soil for more than a month. It could be left there by car tires or someone could sneeze on the ground. You could walk on it, collect the dirt and virus on your shoe, contanminate your hands when you take your shoes off, rub your nose and then you have bf. The most common way the virus was spread from farm to farm was during delivery of feed and supplies. The virus travels on trucks and on the clothing and hair of people. If a man shkes his head, the virus becomes airbourne and can be inhaled by him or someone else, or it can contaminate a surface. I hope this helps.
Carry in VA
You are right. The question was not about infecting people with chicken droppings, though. The point was that if a virus could tavel on chicken dropping dust, why couldn,t it travel on ordinary dust.
prepmaniac – at 22:30
ok sorry
prepmaniac – at 22:25 --- Ultraviolet light will kill the virus. Did you know that most of the worst sunburns happen on overcast days? Sunburns are cause by ultraviolet light. There’s a connection there. It may take a bit longer, but sunlight (ultraviolet radiation) will kill the virus, bright sun or overcast day.
How would you “keep a check on my friends and neighbors to see if any one nearby is sick” on a cloudy day if you didn’t go outside?
You’re mistaking the abundance of common dust and dirt with the extreme unlikelyhood that the entire ground and every surface will be covered with a virus. One day, exposed to UV, will kill any virus sitting around outside. And just opening the drapes, but keeping the windows closed? Most residential window glass these days (in the last 30 years anyway) is designed to block most ultraviolet light. That’s why a person can’t get a tan by lying in front of the living room window on a sunny day.
I can tell you, if people in my town (right now, 1/2 million people) are sick and they are not in my neighborhood, I’m not overyly concerned about going out into my backyard. The theory is that the virus can live for 4 days in the air. But during those 4 days, there is enough UV to kill any and all viruses anywhere outside. Y’all are getting a little bit paranoid
NoFluingAround – at 20:22
Just saw this post (wow totally random event)
Absolute isolation meaning isolation from any H5N1 viral source (theoretically). The chief source I am concerned with at this point is infected humans. If I do not expose myself to infected individuals, my risk of exposure is zero. Being outdoors wouldn’t be inherently high risk unless that brings you into proximity withinfected people (ie. urban or public areas).
MAV in Colorado – at 22:48 --- Agreed. In a crowded city, that’s what fences are for. In more rural areas, distance alone allows a person to see someone coming towards them, and thus to take action to distance themselves from that person.
I would call my friends and neighbors on the phone. If the phone doesn’t work, then I know there is a problem. You are wrong about the virus living in the soil. You are also wrong about the uv killing any virus around in one day. Also I would not be trying to get a tan. A little light coming into the house makes a big difference in mood whether or not the uv has been screened out of it. I am not paranoid. I am stating the way it is. How do you know if there are 1/2 milion people sick in your town that it has not spread to your neighborhood? You are saying things tonight that don’t make any sense. If there are 1/2 million people in your town that are sick, There are people in your neighborhood that have been exposed, I bet. You are not worried about walking around in your yard. I have friends who are not worried about food shortages. You are in denial just like them.
The highest risk for fluwikians will be family members who are not as careful as you are when they venture outdoors for whatever reason. You need to have protocols up on the wall of the kitchen and the exit and entry doors to remind yourself of proper behavior, and more importantly, remind those who have not “lived and breathed” this pending calamity for months.
It might even be good to have a family drill with flash cards for kids. “This is life or death, no kidding, kids”.
if I had a sick neighbor hacking up lung on the other-upwind-side of our fence and the breeze was blowing just right while I was doing my deep breathing exercises, theoretically that could provide exposure. If there are multiple confirmed cases (ie PANDEMIC). I am fairly rural but I will be wearing a mask when outdoors and in town (ie in proximity of ANY humans).
In the medical (healthcare) model we have been taught to function as if EVERY one we treat is HIV+/ Hep C+ . Treat everyone with thesame amount of care and caution when exposing yourself to a potential carrier of lethal pathogens. Same thing here as far as I am concerned. If this thing were to go pandemic there will be very little chance to sort out (ie test) who is infected vs. exposed and prodromal until they keel over.
Bronco Bill and Prepmaniac: Could each of you please post links to discussions or articles that back the statements you make regarding UV light killing the virus. I’m inclined to lean more toward BB’s assessment, as I’ve seen it echoed many times here on the wiki, but I’d like to see what definitive resources upon which each of you are basing your statements.
And prepmaniac, telling Bronco Bill he’s in denial is sheer lunacy. He’s better informed on pandemic risk and solutions for dealing with it than most.
To everyone who is spending big bucks on UV air filters, do you have a power source to keep ‘em up and running 24/7 regardless of what state the power grid is in?
prepmaniac – at 22:56 --- Have it your way. You’re right. UV light will not kill the virus. If the phones don’t work, then you know there’s a problem. The likelyhood of all 1/2 million people in this town getting sick, of carrying the virus, is very high. Everybody will be sick. We’re all gonna die.
Now, back to reality. Look at the numbers. Best guess at this point in time, by all of the experts, is roughly 30% of the population will come down with the flu. Of that 30% of the population, about 2.5 to 5% might die.
or, to use the experts’ numbers:
Extrapolating your numbers, you’re posturing that every person in every neighborhood in every town in every country is going to be infected. If that were the case, then
That is every man, woman, and child in the United States, plus a few from other countries.
I am not in denial.
Links?
See Dennis in Colorado – at 16:42 here
or
See Urdar-No – at 05:12 dated 26 May 2006 here
or
See here “Hampson said reduced ultraviolet (UV) light in winter might also explain why viruses thrive in the cold. UV light is capable of inactivating viruses and bacteria.”
or
See here “11. Influenza viruses do not persist in the environment outside of a host for long periods of time. The avian influenza virus is extremely susceptible to dehydration, ultraviolet light, and high temperatures. At 70°F, in dry conditions, the avian influenza will die within minutes. Under ideal conditions at room temperatures, human flu viruses can remain infective for about one week. Exposure to sunlight drastically reduces the length of time flu viruses can remain infective.”
To everyone who is spending big bucks on UV air filters, do you have a power source to keep ‘em up and running 24/7 regardless of what state the power grid is in?
We had a UVC air purifier put in our central ductwork back in December. After installing it and then investigating it, sort of the reverse of what you’re supposed to do, we found that the UVC lamp won’t really destroy viruses as they pass through the ductwork because the air is moving too fast past the lamps. The UVC lamps need about an hour or two of constant, nonstop exposure in order to be truly effective against the virii/bacteria.
Oh - and I would be a bit careful with that dog you want to walk - he could get the virus on his feet or fur and bring it back into the house! Absolute isolation is the best plan! Make a place for your dog to take care of his needs somewhere in your house/basement so that you can clean up after him and not run the risk!
Oh - and I would be a bit careful with that dog you want to walk - he could get the virus on his feet or fur and bring it back into the house! Absolute isolation is the best plan! Make a place for your dog to take care of his needs somewhere in your house/basement so that you can clean up after him and not run the risk!
Oh - and I would be a bit careful with that dog you want to walk - he could get the virus on his feet or fur and bring it back into the house! Absolute isolation is the best plan! Make a place for your dog to take care of his needs somewhere in your house/basement so that you can clean up after him and not run the risk!
oops - sorry abt the triple post!! my computer is doing funny things tonight!!
O.K… If U.V light does kill the virus: then how long does it take UV light to kill the virus?
Also: if clothing is a contributor to the spread of the virus, then this would be enough information for me to conclude that SIPing is the only way. So how long does the virus survive on clothing and is it worth getting special clothing for emergency outside expeditions(or even throwing out the clothes)?
Prepmaniac brought up some good points about clothing and hair etc…how close to the truth are his/her warning’s?
Edna Mode: To everyone who is spending big bucks on UV air filters, do you have a power source to keep ‘em up and running 24/7 regardless of what state the power grid is in?
Edna, I was just kidding around about the UV air purifiers. The first thought that came to mind was the power issue, so did not invest in them :o)
Blue – at 00:27 --- From what I’ve been able to find, there have been no complete studies regarding how long any virus will stay “alive” on clothing. Someone on a much earlier post, I think pre-crash, laid out a plan of building a small external entryway where they could remove all their clothing, shower with chlorinated water and dispose of their clothes in an airtight bag, then step into a chlorine foot-bath before entering the house. But also, it’s been stated that a single virus particle isn’t likely to cause any problems, but instead clumps of virii being passed on in vapor droplet of sneezes or coughs. That’s the most likely source of infection.
gharris – at 00:22 --- Letting pets outside during a pandemic has been addressed many times here on FW. The majority opinion is to keep pets indoors, as you say. Walking the dog could take place throughout the house. Absolute isolation may work for a small few, but for the majority of people, it’s just not going to be possible.
NoFluingAround I hope your son gets over his cold soon and without complications. Asthma can be scary.
Mama, Thank you, I appreciate your thoughts.
O.K. Take off clothes-shower-but then how much washing can we do. So then I thought: limit outdoor activites and if possible SIP! The problem of infected clothes still seem’s to exist.
Also- why is SIPing just not going to be possible for the majority. If their line of work get’s cancelled then surely there is no excuse ( atleast to psuedo SIP).
I mean- of the people that died in 1918, why did they die. Was it solely for the reason of not SIPing? Was it because those individual’s couldn’t afford to SIP? Was it indeed because it was a family member who had to work to keep the money coming in, who came home with the Killer Flu from work and ended up killing his family?
we live in the country and our neighbors on either side are over 1/2 mile away, so I plan on going out during the pandemic. I will also allow my dogs to go out on a leash , unless they have contact with infected people, and I’d like to think that they won’t because I’m walking them, I do not see a danger in that. But if we get the virus here in birds-that would be a different story and we would really have to restrict the dogs and our cat would stay inside.
I have read this thread with interest, although I have made decisions about this subject a long time ago. Let me just point out the situation of the small to mid-sized farmer and/or gardner. These people will have no debate about what they will do, they will continue to go outside and care for their animals and crops like they always have. These types of people have been the backbone of our country for generations and they will be the ones that bring us back out of the depths of a pandemic when it happens.
Let’s be reasonable folks, you have to consider viral load. No doubt I might come in contact with viri when I go outside during the pandemic. There may be some viri that blow in through the open windows in my house. Surely there will be some around the house of the sick neighbor that I take some soup. That’s why PPE, spray bottles of bleach solution, hand sanitizer, and frequent correct handwashing are as much a part of our pandemic plans as rice and beans. It ain’t sexy like a UV air purifier, but it works.
Blue at 00:27 - …is it worth getting special clothing?
For what its worth, I jave stocked a supply of Tyvek hooded jumpsuits which can be worn for protectin outside. Once used, they can be stripped off outside and dumped into a bucket of chlorinated water. They are not expensive. if they would buy you some peace of mind, then by all means get special clothing for outdoors.
Worrywart at 01:50 - Remember, in the event of a pandemic, the problem will be human-to-human transmission of a variant of H5N1 that is tuned specifically for efficient operation in humans. it will not be the same virus circulating efficiently in birds (we are seeing that already in Indonesia). Your main concern will not be birds, but rather people and other mammals.
As a good example of what precations may need to be followed, think of the current problem with Hanta virus, which is a (sometimes) lethal respiratory virus, spread by mice and rats. While this critters are all around us, and some percentage of them carry this virus, the number of people who get Hanta is actually quite low, and if you are working in areas where such nuisances have been known to be present, there are established protocols for protecting yourself and for disnfecting the area.
(That’s why we have a pressure sprayer for use with bleach solution here, even if there were no such tings as H5N1).
To further on Eccles thoughts, we just don’t know yet. Whatever version goes H2H will be somewhat different (and yet similar) to the many other viruses out there. I have heard many a theory and fact on this site and others about how long a virus (in general) lives on hard surfaces, soft surfaces, paper, in the freezer, in sunlight, etc. The answers are all over the map. So, in the absenece of hard data on THE SPECIFIC VIRUS just use common sense - SIP if you can, keep a good distance from others, use gloves and masks if you must go out (shed clothes and disinfect as best you can when you come home), etc. all the things we’ve talked about over and over. Base your activity on where you live and what you observe around you. If you’re in a city apartment and it is very hot, you better get those windows open - you’ll die of over-heating before catching a virus.
BB at 23:53
I did not say uv light does not kill virus. I did not say the whole town will be infected. I did not say the whole town will be sick. I did not say we are all going to die.
I said If virus can fly around in chicken poop dust, why is it to heavy to fly around in regular dust? You said it can travel on chicken poop dust but is heavier than air and therefore would fall to the ground. It seems that when I ask a question that you can’t answer, you start making arguments with me that I have never stated. Like locking the doors from the inside and shuttering the house and not going outside for months. No one said that but you. I certainly never said that, or any of the other things you are arguing against.
Now. If the virus can travel on chicken poop dust, why can it not travel on other dust?
Edna Mode at 23:38 I am not paranoid either. I am simply answering a question and BB
raised a lot of arguments that I never claimed.
For some reason he doesn’t want to accept that you need to be careful when you are outside during a pandemic and to make his point he attacks with fabricated arguments. I never said extreeme measures need to be taken but he will make them up as if I stated them. Go outside, just be careful if your neighbors are sick. That is it.Why does he argue with that.
To clarify. UV light does kill the virus. On a cool, cloudy, winter day, it does not always do it in only one day as BB stated. It can survive at least 4 days in air alone and for more than a month in water or soil. This is gross , but yes mucus that is coughed up from a neighbor two days before and spit out on the ground contains live virus. Your dog or yourself can pick it up on your shoes or when it dries can hitch a ride or be blown about by a passing car. I am not paranoid. I am just aware. BB is not in denial about the existance of bf, I never said he was. But he does deny the importance of being careful outside. He is in denial about the dangers of being outside. That is what I was talking about. That is not the statement of a lunatic. That is a fact. Ask him.
NoFluingAround – at 00:39 Edna, I was just kidding around about the UV air purifiers. The first thought that came to mind was the power issue, so did not invest in them :o)
Yeah, I didn’t mean that for you specifically. From what I gather on other threads, there are a lot of people either investing in or considering investing in UV air purifiers. I personally think that’s folly as, unless you have a generator and a huge stockpile of fuel, there will likely be no power for a good part of SIP.
Bronco Bill, Thanks for the links.
Prepmaniac, Links to your assertions?
For anyone with kids and pets, I think getting outside (assuming you have some reasonable distance between your place and neighbors’ places) is going to be a vital element in staying sane. We are going to range far and wide, but we will go out to garden, stretch our legs, and let the dog do her thing—while on leash. If we lived in a more crowded neighborhood, we would have a completely different (i.e., more restrictive) plan.
prepmaniac - Bronco Bill is not in denial. You are not paranoid.
Everybody chill please.
There are ways of presenting your arguments without making personal attacks. Everyone here on the forum is entitled to their own opinions. Remember when you are reading text that it is easy to make inferences that were not intended by the poster. Perhaps the use of the phrase IMHO (in my humble opinion) needs to be used more. If you are making a statement as fact, you do need to be able to back it up. Otherwise, remember that everyone has different views on every subject and that just because someone thinks differently does not make them wrong.
For instance, IMHO, if H5N1 goes pandemic, the virus is going to be everywhere.
It is a fact that if H5N1 goes pandemic I am going to have some of my windows open, weather permitting, if we lose power. It gets hot here in Texas and I do not wish to die from a heatstroke while saving myself from catching the flu.
Now, back to our regularly scheduled thread:-)
“We are going to range far and wide…” at 9:47 should have been, “We AREN’T going to range far and wide…” (Sorry. Wicked head cold.)
Watching in TX @ 9:49 Hear, hear. I want all opinions genuinely expressed without rancor or fear of recrimination. We all have a lot to learn. For myself, I’ll not be afraid of fresh air, sunshine even in the city. Pooch will get a ‘footbath’ coming in from outdoors (so will I) and possibly do ‘bidness’ indoors (not difficult for a beagle - really can’t stand this dog, BTW) Every little thing we can comfortably do enhances our chance of survival. There is no right or wrong here. Those words have kept me going a long time in other strenuous situations. I’m quite sure they apply now.
Bronco Bill – at 22:40 --- I can tell you, if people in my town (right now, 1/2 million people) are sick and they are not in my neighborhood, I’m not overly concerned about going out into my backyard.
prepmaniac – at 22:56: I am stating the way it is. How do you know if there are 1/2 milion people sick in your town that it has not spread to your neighborhood? You are saying things tonight that don’t make any sense. If there are 1/2 million people in your town that are sick, There are people in your neighborhood that have been exposed, I bet.
prepmaniac – at 07:35 --- I did not say the whole town will be infected. I did not say the whole town will be sick.
Bronco Bill – at 22:40 --- You’re mistaking the abundance of common dust and dirt with the extreme unlikelyhood that the entire ground and every surface will be covered with a virus.
prepmaniac – at 22:56 --- You are wrong about the virus living in the soil.
prepmaniac – at 08:18 But he does deny the importance of being careful outside. He is in denial about the dangers of being outside. That is what I was talking about. That is not the statement of a lunatic. That is a fact. Ask him.
If you truly believe that I am in denial about outdoor safety during a pandemic, then I have wasted nearly a year of watching and reading this board every single day, sometimes for hours on end. I have wasted money on food storage, on outdoor clothing, on masks and hundreds of gloves, on preps for my family, on talking with others about the dangers of H5N1, about social distancing and of working from home if possible. I am extremely aware of how sick a person can get from touching inanimate objects—that’s what I do for a living, and it has made me extremely sick with influenza twice in the past 12 months. Even after receiving my annual flu shot. Don’t even go there with me on someone who is in denial. Don’t even go there with me on the dangers of being outside.
I plan to go outside in my fenced backyard during SIP. Infact, if the power is out the house will probably be too hot during the day and it will be cooler outside in the shade. I’ll probably limit time in the front of the house where I may come in contact with neighbors or strangers.
And my windows will most likely be open but probably with hurricane shutters up on some of the larger ones.
You said it.
nopower – at 10:08 I plan to go outside in my fenced backyard during SIP. Infact, if the power is out the house will probably be too hot during the day and it will be cooler outside in the shade.
IMHO the BF will probably be at it’s best during the winter months, if anything, the issue will be how to keep warm.
NoFluingAround – at 12:04 IMHO the BF will probably be at it’s best during the winter months, if anything, the issue will be how to keep warm.
We’re in Florida — still hot in the winter. I’m with you nopower
prepmaniac: the3/ 5 /10 etc km of safty zones that is been established around farms or findings of H5N1 in birds has nothing to do with the dust flying around, Dust dont care about police roadblocks. Its based on a very bad experience of avian flu in Europe some years ago with vetrinarians driving from farm to farm.. spreading the virus on the tires.. Thats why they have safty zones, to clean all cars and feets, and make sure noe one is bringing live or dead animals trhu. So what does this tells us? First we have to look at this debate, we have to be more clear about what we are talking about. Is it avian flu? or the potential Pan Flu? If its avian, please relax. The amount of virus needed to infect chicken is extremly low.. The virus is very vell adapted. For humans its a hole other story and coomon sence will keep everyone not having close contact with birds safe.
But then what if the virus turns human? Then its adapted to us, Will it be just as bad? First. humans dont poop on the floor. We dont have our airways on the ground, and we dont eat from the toilet. We dont roll on the ground. So that leaves the sneacing, the coughing and the tuch the main way of spreading.. Will a sneeze fly around a city? I think not, And the weather and the sun is on our side.
I would look at ordinary flu as the most reasonable example. It does not spread around in the cities street, and absolytly not in the suburbia. I cant back this up right now, But if maps of flucases was totaly geographic, and not only related to schools, work etc we would have heard about it on this wiki..
Comon sence, its indoors like comon stairs etc, under roofs the spread will take place, becuase there is the dust, and no sunchine.. Of course you will stay as many meters away from people as possible when you are outdoors. And air from neighboors flats will be a consern. But we have to realize that open windows, and a walk in the park is essential for surviving. Good hygiene will make this posible.
Urdar-Norway-I think you are correct, but there will always be those stray cases that can’t be explained. If a Mack truck crosses the center line and takes you out, well, there is nothing you can do about it. I view random wind-blown virus in much the same way. But, then again, I would not do any jogging downwind of a hospital.
We recently bought a 2-way receiver so we could listen in on ham radio operators, police, fire, etc. We have 2 retrievers and 2 cats. The cats will stay inside (primarily because they like to catch and eat mice, small birds, etc.) The dogs, however, we intend to allow outside since we have a small cottage and they are used to running around. Our plan is to listen carefully to daily reports, and if it sounds like the flu has spread to any of the towns near us (we live 17 miles away from 3 towns), then we will start using a “pandemic dog run”. It will be a 12 x 30 fenced run connected to our back door, and will have a tin roof over it so bird droppings won’t directly fall into the run. We plan on making it 6 ft. high so we can walk in and clean up periodically. We got the idea from several previous posts on a thread in fluwikie.
As for the humans in our house, we will be outside with shoes on…but they have to stay outside the door when we come back inside. We have told everyone that once we call “ollie ollie in come free”, you have 24 hours to get your butt home and once everyone is in…the gate closes and we are here for the duration. Nobody is allowed in or out as we have fully prepped. When we hear on the radio reports that the coast is clear, then we will send someone to venture out. I sure hope that some of our fluwikians will be operating the ham radios to notify the rest of us what’s going on and when the wave has passed!
Urdar-Norway, so you are saying that you can only catch the flu indoors. What about the crowded streets when someone sneezes? How does the spread on tyres work? (I am not critisizing, just trying to get your ideas, because we need information like you have just told us about the spread by tyres leading to the safety zones.) Keep posting please! I do agree that inside is the worst!
ranchgirl – at 20:52
Your plan sounds very similar to ours. I have not bought a receiver to monitor local emergency responders. May I ask what you decided on and how you arrived at that choice? Or, if you think that is too off-topic for this thread, how about posting your 20:52 comment into a new thread, and I’ll pose my question there. I bet others would be interested.
Urdar- Norway - at 1914 I agree that tires spread the virus around. Also shoes, jackets, ect. It got on the truck, feed bag, gloves, shoes, hair, ect. when it became airborne when the delivery guy shock his head, brushed his clothes, lifted his feed bag and landed on other things or was breathed by other chickens. As I have said before, at some point, the virus had to be air borne for the newly infected chickens to breathe it. They did not touch something and rub thier eyes like humans do. They did not lick the tires. They inhaled the virus that came to the farm on the tires. How? It had to at some point become air borne. There is no other way. Is there?
Urdar- Norway
No. I am not worried at all about catching anything especially bf from chickens or even the wild ducks that live behind my house. As a matter of fact, I am considering them a possible food source if bf goes h2h before it infects wild ducks here and I have to sip.
I’m pretty sure I recalled reading in Barry’s book about the 1918 Spanish Epidemic that the tent hospital that was set up on the hill overlooking one of the major towns (Boston?) that the death rate was significantly less than those in hospital wards….reason? Attributed to Air movement… Additional fresh air vs. reciruculation of virus laden air
I also seem to recall, whether from the book or from storiers related on here?.. that some grandparents made the family sleep out on the screen-in porch for the fresh air and noone in the house became ill.
I told my daughter that while she won’t be playing Cats-cradle with her friends I didn’t see any reason why they can’t sit in their car and us on our porch and “visit”. We farm and nearest neighbor is well over 1/2 mile away.. I’m not planning on staying inside and in fact am counting on being able to go out daily for hours, weather permitting.
As far as the UV-C.. we use UV-C lights to disinfect goggles for science class… we only have 3 minutes between classes so we use two sets and the “dirty pair” disinfects for 20 minutes per instructions from the manufacturer, while the clean set is worn during the next classtime.
Think about how the delivery truck that spread the virus is parked -outside- away from the caged chickens (never goes inside) and is only parked there for 20 minutes. (long enough to make a delivery) My guess would be in the sun. How is that a problem for the spread of the virus if what you say is true? The virus covers the truck, covers the ground, (not just where the truck is going to be. Everywhere. It doesn’t know where the truck is going to be.) Then it survives at least long enough to make the trip to the next farm and is still strong enough and numerous enough to infect the chickens at the next farm. The chickens have to breathe it so it -has to become air born again-. Think —it had to be in the air to stick onto the truck and float to the ground to have the truck pick it up on the tires. If not tell me how did it get there?
Eduk8or at 23:03
Just because a person doesn’t get sick does not mean they were not exposed. I know two women who were alive during the 1918 pandemic. One lived in Florida at the time and the other lived in Georgia. Both lived in cities. The one who lived in Georgia said that no one in her family got sick. Her aunt was sent everyday to care for sick neighbors as she was the youngest female of her mothers generation and did not have children to care for. People in her neighborhood got very, very sick and they had to care for each other. I saked if a lot of people died. She said no. They were very, very sick, People would get better and then they would help take care of the others that got sick. She heard that a lot of people died, but the ones she knew just got very sick. No one in her family got sick. In Florida it was different. No one in her family got sick either, but lots and lots of neighbors that she knew died. Her most vivid memory was her father had 6 caskets that he built for his next door neighbors. He had them in the front yard. The entire family died and he buried them because there was no one else to do it. Her mothers sister and her uncle died and left 2 children (who did not get sick in spite living in the house with sick and dying parents) who had to come and live with them. The point is -it doesn’t prove that you are not exposed on the porch just because someone did not get sick. I just gave examples of people who cared for and lived with people who died of bf. Does that prove that you can care for and live in the same house with a person dying of bf and you can’t get sick. Absolutly not.
Urdar Norway
I am not worried about chickens giving me bf. I just have to use how the bf virus in chickens behave to compare it to h2h virus because h2h has not happened, but they are the same virus only mutated.
To add to Eduk8or’s point on fresh air - fresh air helps patients with pneumonia as well. It can do a world of good. So don’t keep them cooped up in a stuffy, warm, tale-air room.
prepmaniac, What makes you so sure the chickens became ill from airborne virus? If Farm A has infection, say, from wild birds, what’s to prevent those same birds from infecting Farm B and Farm C down the road. “As the crow flies,” it’s just a hop, skip, and a jump (how’s that for cliche overkill?!).
Every farm I’ve been to, and it’s many, have all sorts of little feathered friends zipping in and out of the poultry yards and enclosures. They come to swipe the feed and comingle and poop all over the place.
Read how everyone agrees that delivery trucks spread virus from farm to farm. Commercial farms do not have chickens running around freely. Yet they are very stringent about cleaning delivery trucks and making sure the delivery guy is disinfected before he enters the farm.
Edna Mode at 07:37
Read my post. How does the virus cover the trucks and infect the chickens who are in cages, (indoors) who have to breathe it in order to get infected if it is not air born? Please answer this. Without comment on farms or screened porches or other stories.
You know. I don’t want the government to be right. But it seems that they are. In that people can not or will not grasp the concept of absolute isolation no matter how much info they are given. It seems a few will, but only a few of those few will die any way. So for the greater good, mabe it is better to not disrupt the economy and food supply of everyone for long term sip. Mabe the goal should be to gaurd against starvation only when the supply breaks down. Even when I ask good questions that should make people think, they ignore those questions and make comments or ask other questions that are not relevant. It gets off track. I give up. People are going to reason that walking in the park is absolute isolation. Go ahead and do it. The chance that you will die from that walk is not a huge concern in the overall picture. Even if the walk in the park exsposes you, it is not a guarantee that you will even get sick. Many people who have huge exposure will not get sick. Many who are very careful to guard against exsposure will die. It just bugs me when people who should know better say that social disatancing is the same as absolute isolation and say that you are safe when you practice it. I feel I am wasting my time. But mabe there are few who have read my posts and can reason that it makes sense and they can protect themselves during a time when the virus is deadly and mabe I have saved at least one life.
There we go again with “The whole ground will be covered with it”. If influenza virii covered the ground and filled the air, then everyone…EVERYONE! is going to be infected anyway, whether they show signs or not.
So far, there has been no proof that H5N1 has hitched a ride on a truck, auto, bicycle, shoes, nor any other means of transportation other than natural transmission. Since you are so certain that the virus moves via man-made transportation, prepmaniac, please, please provide some links, even one, that provide proof of that.
Right now, this is a BIRD-TO-BIRD virus, transmitted between birds.
H2H is bird to bird mutated. You are right. Everyone will be infected any way. Hopefully though it will not be when the virus is at its most deadly.
Have links?
Bronco Bill – at 09:16 There we go again with “The whole ground will be covered with it”. If influenza virii covered the ground and filled the air, then everyone…EVERYONE! is going to be infected anyway, whether they show signs or not.
Right, and if it were spread by this means and this easily, manyfold more people and animals would have caught it at this point.
The bottom line is that everyone needs to assess their situation for what they believe to be the most likely threats and execute their own SIP accordingly. I personally think that hermetically sealing off my family from the world is unnecessary, impractical, and possibly detrimental—if not to our respiratory health, then definitely to our mental health. No, I won’t be attending block parties or the Macy’s Thanksgiving Day Parade. Yes, I will be gardening out in my yard as a means of sustaining my family.
Research it. You will see. I do not save link info. Never saw a reason until now. The information I have talked about can be found with a little effort, open mind and common sense. I have no more time to argue with you bb. You ignore my questions and ridicule my opinions just because they don’t match yours. Even though I like parts of your personality I feel you are a bit of a bully towards me. Have a good day.
Edna Mode – at 09:26 --- Agreed. Civilization will not survive if every man, woman, and child goes into absolute and total isolation for 6 months, 12, months, or 18 months. Everything we know, everything we use, and everything we rely on will come to a screeching halt.
No, I won’t be going to the local park. No, I won’t be going to any parades, either. I, too, will be in MY backyard (I’ll have a 1/2 acre in two weeks, y’see) doing my gardening, taking the proper precautions, and I will not be afraid of the virus “covering the ground and filling the air and being everywhere”. On the other hand, according to some, I’m in complete denial and won’t survive.
I’m not being a bully towards you. You don’t provide any proof of what you’re saying. You have nothing to back it up. All I’m asking is for you to answer for your statements. That’s all. I don’t need to research what you’ve said…I’ve researched it already, and have come to my own conclusions based on science and common sense.
BB - doesnt it stand to reason that IF AND WHEN we have a pandemic - which by WHO definition is ‘efficient sustained H2H’ transmission, then we will need to be very very careful out of doors? i.e. at that point it will no longer be B2B? People spit on the sidewalks, dogs and people will walk through the expectorate - people sneeze, droplets fall to the ground, people touch handrails/doorknobs after sneezing or coughing into their hands, etc etc. It seems clear to me that the ONLY way to survive that kind of casual exposure is to stay completely inside your own home - as unpalatable/unrealistic as that may seem at this point - there wont be any reason to break SIP because there wont be anything ‘available’ to acquire from the world outside (if we are to believe the JIT/shortages scenario) I thought that was the whole point about preparedness?? Or is this all just paranoia? I take the opinions of all on the wiki quite seriously, do you feel perhaps we have gone from the sublime to the ridiculous?
afterthought - it may still be B2B once it goes pandemic - but we will be MORE concerned with the H2H aspect, wont we?
Edna Mode – at 09:47
Regarding children going outside during a pandemic. I have 5 kids and our plans for allowing them outside depends on how the pandemic is running its course at any given time.
Flexibility.
We have a screened in lanai that has two solid walls (the house) and two screened walls that face the backyard. There is no immediate neighbor in direct line-of-sight to this lanai … our neighbors aren’t miles away, but they are on diagonals from our house rather than sharing facing walls directions.
Assuming we do not have active infections in our neighborhood, the kids will be allowed outside for exercise. Keeping them inside all day will make they as likely to come down ill as letting them have some fresh air and sunshine.
As homeschoolers we participate in a lot of what would be considered community service and extracurricular activities. When/if we need to change our SOPs will depend on the epidemic progress and CFR.
I think we are all talking about this based on our own surroundings. For example, if I’m surrounded by acres of land, or I don’t live on a zero lot line (neighbors can’t hear what’s being said in my house) compared to an apartment dweller, townhouse dweller, or zero lot line dweller (neighbor’s house is practically in touching distance), I’d feel better about stepping out into my patio, my backyard, my garden, etc. One can get too ridiculous. Common sense should be used. We’ve even bought some of the bamboo fences that can be attached to chain link fences for further privacy for our backyard so no one will be able to see when we are out, our fruit trees etc. (these will only go up if needed). People are going to be sick if this thing pans out. They are not going to be out walking the dog, socializing with neighbors, etc. Fresh air and sunshine are healers. Now, if someone lives on a dirt road that is frequented by trucks that have visited poultry farms, then that’s another matter. I’d probably stay inside. As is, in my situation, in my neighborhood, with our large patio and backyard and privacy, we’d be stepping outside to enjoy nature.
gharris – at 10:16 --- Why will there be a need to absolutely lock yourself down in your home? Will you have people walking through your back yard? Will your neighbors’ dogs be in your back yard? I’ve never said “Go outside completely unprotected and don’t worry about anything.” My argument is that more than likely I, and anyone else, will be safe in our own back yards.
I do think that for most part, yes, total and absolute isolation does border very close to paranoia. At some point, during a 6 month SIP, people will have to go outside just to see if the world still exists. There is no such thing as a completely sealed home….and if the scenario presented earlier is true, than bazillions of little virii are going to enter a home or building through duct work anyway. The best way to avoid getting sick is to stay away from people. Social distancing, as has been echoed on this board innumerable times, as well as by gov’t officials, other boards, the WHO, and the CDC. Sometimes paranoia can be a good thing, but at this time, unfounded claims that this, or any other virus, are going to completely cover the ground and everything around so that no matter where a person walks or stands they’ll get infected, I believe is ridiculous. If someone can present proof that it will be unsafe for me to walk out into my backyard, with no one around, and no one having been in my backyard, then I’ll rethink my position.
Our different living environments are so diverse that rather than simply doing what “the other person” is doing we need to look at our own home and determine its strengths and weaknesses and plan accordingly.
No plan will be fool-proof and all plans should leave in the element of flexibility.
Any plan will also need to be flexible in terms of proximity of personal contact … ability to socially distance yourself, population density, personal safety issues, etc.
Even though we have neighbors, they are on diagonals to our home … which is fenced which allows for some privacy and animal containment. <grin> That means that it is easier for us to use social distancing measures while still being outside. The density of of those within thecurrently “most vulnerable” age range (e.g. 4–40) is low … in fact my home would be more “dangerous” to the neighbors than they would be to me under those parameters.
I also live in Florida where there is a high UV index on a daily basis through out the whole year. There are smaller temperature variations from season to season. But, the humidity is higher year round as well which may be a complicating factor. Not to mention we have financial and legal obligations that will not go away just because of a pandemic flu.
All of these things play a role in our family’s plan. But the plan our family came up with will likely not work for the next family … wouldn’t even work for one of our neighbors most likely.
Gotta have a plan that is specific to your needs.
I guess it depends a LOT on where you live - in an ‘executive’ suburb where the houses are sitting in the middle of an expansive and fenced lot, then you arent much at risk from H2H in your backyard - if however you live in a crowded city where someone may have spit on the sidewalk 3 minutes before your dog walks through it, then that will certainly be a problem. If you live in a rural area with trucks visiting B2B infected and non-infected farms then that might be a problem. Similarly, if you live in a small town or village and there is B2B/B2H in the area, where farm folks, hunters or nature lovers come in to shop then that might be a problem. If however your suburban fenced backyard is on a migratory flypath and B2B is endemic in your area, then I WOULD worry about bird droppings/fluids drying and becoming ‘friable’ in the air. JMHO
Two things are important on this thread, IMHO:
1. Most things are relative to the individual posters. ie: we do not all live in the same type of residence, town, country, etc. Therefore, we will not all have the same experience. In 1918, some towns or cities were virtually wiped out while others escaped relatively unscathed. What we may or may not do will depend greatly on what level of infection penetrates our own personal surroundings.
2. No matter how much this subject is argued or discussed, I doubt very much that any of us know exactly what we are going to do until we actually experience this and do it. For instance, right now I am of the opinion that no matter what I will take my butt load of large dogs into the backyard. I might, however, change my mind if my next door neighbor is outside constantly loudly coughing in my direction. It is easy to sit here and say “I will absolutely” do this or that, but until TSHTF, how much do we really know about anything? We can plan and we can surmise and we can argue ‘til the cows come home. I will open my windows to avoid dying from heat stroke, but if my neighborhood is infected, I will rethink opening the windows near the street or another house. Once TSHTF, I may rethink a great deal of my assumptions. My entire family may be the ones in the neighborhood who are sick and worrying about getting infected then will be a very large moot point!
Where do we get filter’s for duct work ~>:{ }
~>:{−0}
The story of vetrinaries spreading was the one where one of them died, it was a single outbreak of a another virus than H5N1. I am no expert on this, but its easy to imagine the mud from the tires been steped in, brought into the chiken room, and there it was easaly infecting one chicken and so on.. Most farms are muddy places.. And the chicken room is very dusty.. It did not have to be airborne to enter the room, birds eat things on the ground.. I would like to propose a imganinary scenario. One person is standing in a allmost empty street in daytime, he has a spraypaint can and opens it op a microsecund.. imagine the paint.. it will blow some meters, but i realy cant imagine more than one single particle of that paint to end up in my house down the street in such a short timespan that the sun dosent do its job.. And as we know, there has to be a certain amount of virus load to get you infected.. Surly there will be the single odd case.. But rain, sunshine, the amount of dust and of course the number of people in the streets will have an effect.
My point is that chickens have their own problem, we have others, chickens dont shake hands, delviers and prepare other chickens food etc. Humans will be infected in indoors enviroment, placec where the air is bad.. dust is floatning and sunshine dont disnfect. Thats why we need to close all sosial gaterherings. A crowed street will of coure be just as bad.. But as far as I know the suburbia in the US, its not exaklty crowded.. (based on good films like american beuaty..) For us living in the midtowns, we will have to consider what windows to open.. I for instance would not open my front window. It turns black of dust from the cars in only one day. But a hepa filter takes care of that. On the backside its better. But it is not a ideal situation.. But I will think the largest problem will be the stairs. They have to be washed dayly to keep dust away, and a desinfecting doormat is also good, to keep the air sirculating just open the lowes and the higest window.
But in winter time here up north is another story. there may bee weeks between sunshine.. if it cold and moist, a can imagine a quite high number of wiruses on the ground “living” for a longer time. Shoes has to bee cleaned.. and left on the outside, that is a vise thing to do..
Kathy in FL and others: Having plans that fit your circumstances is exactly right, flexibility is key. There is no one size fits all for this.
We live on 2.5 acres that is surrounded by about 25 acres of marsh on two sides, a slow country road with woods on the third, and one neighbor about 350′ to our right on the other side of a stand of pines and deciduous trees. Assuming all hell doesn’t break loose on the social order front (which I’m not altogether hopeful of), we will be OK in *our* yard. That’s not to say everyone else will be OK in their yard. It is entirely specific to your circumstances.
When we do go out, as BB has stated, we will take common sense precautions to protect ourselves. I’m not going to have my kids gallavanting across our property the way they do now. And we will be on constant guard for wanderers straying onto our property.
If social order breaks down, we will become much more entrenched and vigilant about what is going on in our area as I don’t expect looters to ask permission to enter our yard. ;) We have taken precautions to prevent such an incident, but I don’t think you can control for all variables.
Based on some coments, I still feel the need to diverse the two different issues, birdflu and panflu. We may learn from the birdflu how it infects birds. But then agian realise that we do most things different than birds on the ground does.. Please, if birdflu is one day present on a farm, near a mud track, continue your life as ordinary, exept the two issues, boots and pets.. Thats is in my opinon the only things you need to think about (exept if your drinking water is groundwater and in a small volume)
I totaly agree on the “no plans fits all”. This is the story from my town 1918. Most cases was in the poor area. Why? becuse of the density of people there. A normal family was 2 adults and 2–5 ++ children living in only 1 or 2 rooms.. You can imagine how it spreaded. On the rich side, where flats was bigger and toilets systems better and cleaner the number of cases was realy low. If the virus spreaded in the air in the entire city, then it would been a equal distrubution of cases. And this is tight euoropean city architecture (if you have not seen it, think of Rome, its the same).
My guess is that a densly populated area like the garden citys of suburbia will have a risks equal to zero of beeing infected by the “wind” in the garden.
What we need to get on the its feets are guides for the central urban cities. How to sip, and keeping the posiiblity to get out for fresh air, more supplys etc whitout to much risk. This needs coperation with neighboors. No one can do this alone, not even with hughe amounts of masks etc. A dusty stair with “bad air” will be a high risk for your “safe zone” when you enter in and out..
Urdar-Norge – at 15:37
Urdar-Norge, Your point about differentiating avian flu and pandemic flu (H2H) is important. Each requires its own kind of precaution. What I think most people in this thread are talking about is catching H2H as the result of going outside once the avian form has gone to a human pandemic strain.
You also make excellent points about what happened in your town in 1918. There absolutely would have been equal distribution across neighborhoods if it were easy to catch by simply walking outside your home.
its all in the % of risk. 100% risk free is almost imposble. but a total isolation for a very long time will be as safe can be. Many sees it as imposible. and many here will try. We wil all do our best.
I for one am one of those that plan to SIP as long as possible. Just in case, the wife and I do have to venture out of the “compound”, we have definite procedures that we will do upon leaving, getting back into the car, and coming home. We dont plan leaveing though, unless an emergency arises with either of us. We live on 2.5 acres surrounded by a chain link fence, and three strand barb wires on top (the neighbors started calling it the “compound” so that is the name we use.
Gary, that sounds great. I’ll be outside a lot as I go crazy indoors. I’ll have to work out how society is faring before I go near other people, once we stop work. You folks on the Wiki need to worry about this, I work in a power station.
Call of the Wild – at 01:33 I hope your safety committee (gee doesn’t every company have one), has a serious plan for a pandemic (along with all the other OSHA mandated safety plans), but have they worked out for the working employees, how sick leave will be handled, etc? The power grid is one of the main issues facing this country in normal times, but with the potenial of so many workers off ill, etc. I realize that normal electrical work will most likely not be done, such as new substations, connecting houses and businesses, but would think that repair work on existing lines would be the top issue. Is that correct?
We have a procedure of course. Just have to figure out how to do all the jobs when particular people can’t show up. Sick people will use their accrued leave and be paid. Healthy people will be expected to turn up and do the essential jobs or won’t get paid. Protective equipment and cleaning stuff has been acquired in large quantities and the protocols figured out, so we don’t infect people at work. Some may work from home, but as someone else once said if we could do without 30% of our staff, that would already have happened. A big CFR would negate all this though. YOYO would be in full swing.
You think there’s squabbling on this thread, just imagine what it would be like to be cooped up in a house with not a breath of fresh air for… however long we’re talking. Just suppose it was necessary… good lord… honestly, people are gonna be snapping like rubberbands. Coping skills are gonna be tested beyond anything imaginable. (Unless you’re a hermit type.) And, no--- I don’t have links to back this up. (But, I did read about it happening to mountain men in some Louis Lamour book.) Honest to pete--- at some point (breaking point) people will probably end up running out of their houses looking like that screamer painting by Van Gouge. And how many waves will that take? Some people may have the where-withall to do this… but many probably won’t (w/o killing each other or going bonkers.)
EnoughAlready – at 03:42 In some respects you are correct, if someone is cooped up in a place that cannot get outside. Can you imagine what the prisons will be like, talk about even worse problem than it is now. As for getting out, some of us are lucky in that we will be able to go outside and walk around (here on over 2 acres with a chain link fence around the property), but I also understand a house full of people, bumping into each other all the time. Someone better be in charge, have rules before the fact and laid out, and have an area that a person can go to just to get away from the crowd.
Jeez what a long thread… I was hoping you guys had settled the question by the time I reached the end. Early in the post when BB posted as a mous~, I thought “who is that guy, I’m in total agreement, this person has the facts down” Unfortunately Bronco it was down hill from there…
Beyond all of this.. please remember, we’re trying to answer a thread question here. Let me give you another perspective. Behind me there is a large arroyo. People live down there. Poor people. A year ago, a Catholic school was built nearby on what you could call a “mesa” above this arroyo. It’s a popular school with a dirt road going through the arroyo up to the mesa. To my alarm, the past year has been one of large volumes of dust from car travel, settling over my property. Now I know from experience that after flooding (note vector) that there is a real danger here of cholera spreading on airborne dust. sooo you get where I’m going with this?
fortunately, this summer while the school has been in recess, they have been working to pave the dirt road. so was there a threat?
thank you for listening
I also need to add that I will be going outside at least within the confines of my property, unless of course or conversation leads us to believe that, that would be foolishly dangerous
If the population density surrounding one’s Shelter-in-Place is any denser that a typical suburban enclave, I would minimize my time outside and keep my exertions to a minimum. I read some good studies on how joggers do themselves more harm than good by jogging along roadways or even within 50 meters of a roadway. The DPM (diesel particulate matter) which is very small in size tends lodge very deeply in the lungs and to do the most damage when one jogs. By putting more volume of air through your lungs in a forceful and deep manner I believe you would increase your chance of winning the “windblown panflu virus” lottery.
AHHHHH…finally a reason to be a couch potato and not jog…maybe there is a bright side!
no name-And you would conserve calories. Brief sessions of jumping rope indoors and working with free weights would be the better way to go. But yea, more couch potato time.