From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Will a Pandemic Solve Any Problems

11 October 2006

Thom – at 11:21

I do not recall seeing anything along these lines in any discussion / forum but I sure would like others thoughts on this. At any rate, we just had an incident at one of our local high schools this morning – students with knives stabbing other students. This got me thinking about how we can stop this type of thing as TPTB have proven time and again that they can’t as it just keeps getting worse. How can we ensure the safety of ourselves or our children? From what I have seen it is a safe bet that TPTB and theirs will be safe no matter what comes down the pike.

SOOOOOOO

Is it wishful thinking that the majority of ‘bad’ people are the ones who are not prepping thus will be the ones to feel the full blunt of the upcoming Pandemic?

Will the Pandemic help solve the illegal immigration problem?

Will the Pandemic take out most, if not all of the gangs that are spreading through our neighborhoods and schools?

Will the Pandemic help solve the lawlessness we have in our cities by taking out most of the bad guys?

Will the Pandemic give us another chance to do things right instead of the current non working political correct way we are doing now?

Then again, it may be that it is the good guys, the preppers, that get decimated and the bad guys have full and open reign to do whatever they want.

I know this may be a topic that some may find offensive or really a cold way to look at what may happen after a pandemic but has anyone else had these thoughts?

Can anything good come out of a Pandemic?

Will a Pandemic solve any problems?

diana – at 11:24

No.

JWB – at 11:40

Yes. I believe it will in the long term.

1) Viral breakthroughs. Possibly to the point of elimination.

2) The elimination of fossil fuel power plants.

Just to name a few….

diana – at 12:06

If you are one of the dead it will eliminate your problems. Otherwise it is so hit and miss, with noone guarenteed to live, or have anyone they care for to live. Its not going to wipe out humanity. It will teach no group of people to get along any better. It will only thin out the herd. I’ve heard that Stalins policies of getting rid of his enemies is thought to have altered the survival of the Russians. Certain types of people with certain character traits thrived while others were eliminated. What traits would the virus choose? Certain age groups might suffer more losses. The young adolescent and younger adults. That means less workers keeping the social security system intact. It might change climate warming as less fossil fuels will be used.Certainly China will benefit with less people, as will India. People will be killing each other with as much relish as they do now in search of dominance. There will be some gains somewhere, but who can really predict who will live and who will die.

Pixie – at 12:33

IMHO it is wishful thinking that the “bad” people will be ruled out. Granted, ITSHTF, some will die, just like some of us will die. They may also be involved in higher risk activities such as looting - which may increase their fatality rates as well. As for gangs - it may decrease members, but those who are “borderline” criminals may be taken in as new members.

It would be too much to ask to have a fresh start to politics and the way we treat our earth. Most of us left will want to resume life as we know it ASAP.

In a worst case scenario, with no law enforcement, the bad guys will have freedom to do as they wish, at least until some sort of vigilante group is set up to deal with them.

Some good could come out of a pandemic - fewer people means less strain on resources, less waste and with less demand on earth, the enviroment may rebound slightly.

As far as any other good - it depends on whether people can learn and change. Sometimes extremely “bad” occurances can spur individuals to change their mindsets. How many people reprioritized after 9/11? How many are still sticking with those resolutions? Some are, but some have fallen back into old ways of thinking.

Wolverine – at 13:46

Thom – at 11:21

Personally, I think that this is a terrible way to look at our human brethren. H5N1 is not some cosmic cleansing mechanism. This is a dreadful and cataclysmic event that has the power to change the course of human history. People will die, and no good can come of that. Children are the weakest and often the most innocent of society. Do they “deserve” to die because they may someday grow up to be lawbreakers? This is unconscionable, Malthusian thinking. We ARE our brothers’ keeper, and the sooner we can learn this…the better. No good can come of a pandemic, unless it comes from an increase in our faith and character in the face of insurmountable odds.

Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 16:08

Survival of the fittest.

Wolverine – at 16:44

Charles Darwin was a rabid racist who wrote -Origin of Species- to delineate the differences between what he perceived to be the “highly evolved” European and the “backwards, simian-like” African. His propaganda has no place in the minds of enlightened men…no offense intended. We should try to turn away from such arguments as “survival of the fittest” and think instead of survival of conscience and our joint humanity.

Janet – at 17:03

I think there is a possibility of some medical breakthroughs in such areas as: boosting immune system, etc., that may be very helpful in other diseases and conditions.

I did some work some time ago for the Veterans Administration on a medical museum in which they showed some pretty amazing medical breakthroughs that came out of wartime, i.e. medivac, x-rays, blood transfusions, etc.

Additionally, it is the only good thing that has come out of AIDs - new drugs that seem to help with other diseases and conditons by boosting one’s immune system.

Might be the only good thing after so much pain, suffering and death. The only other good news is that it would most likely mark the time when a new pandemic won’t come around for another 30 years or so.

NawtyBitsat 17:15

Obesity.

Gary Near Death Valley – at 17:18

I dont know about the answer to your questions, but I do think that if the CFR is higher than 3 to 5% (and that is a huge drop from what it is now in Asia), that society itself itself will be danger..and that would be The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly,,,,,,,,each dieing across the board. And if it is that bad, well not alot any of us can do then.

pogge – at 17:21

Wolverine at 16:44:

Actually Darwin was pretty liberal for his time.

Someone who starts his career here as Angela wanting to talk about “Christians and Bird Flu” and then overnight becomes Wolverine wanting to “debate” conspiracy theories and make inflammatory statements like the one above makes me wonder if we’re being toyed with. Please don’t. And please stick to one name.

Chesapeake – at 17:41

get him pogge

InKyat 17:51

Re the title of this thread:

I can think of better ways to solve problems.

(Just one thought - Angela and Wolverine may be the same person, or they may be two people using the same computer.)

InKyat 17:51

Re the title of this thread:

I can think of better ways to solve problems.

(Just one thought - Angela and Wolverine may be the same person, or they may be two people using the same computer.)

InKyat 17:52
InKyat 17:54

OK, that’s embarrassing. Mac people have a habit of double-clicking. Sorry about the double post, etc.

Edna Mode – at 18:02

Thom – at 11:21

Thom, I guess the answer to your question depends on your definition of bad. I’m a pro choice, gay marriage supporting, liberal atheist. I’m sure there are plenty of people around—probably plenty right on this list—who would consider me “bad.” Do I deserve to die during pandemic? (Playing devil’s advocate of course—ack! There I go again!)

pogge – at 17:21

Yeah, Pogge!

Pixie – at 12:33 It would be too much to ask to have a fresh start to politics and the way we treat our earth. Most of us left will want to resume life as we know it ASAP.

Pixie, Wouldn’t it be lovely to get such a fresh start. Sadly, I think it is too much to ask. But in regards to most people wanting to resume life as they knew it ASAP, that’s actually something I’ve been mulling for some time. The good that has come from pandemic for me is that I have learned so much about so many different things. I have acquired so many new skills as far as self-sufficiency goes. I have never considered myself to be a “tree-hugging granola eater” (please note the self-deprecating humor; no offense intended to any long-time tree huggers who may be reading!), but I am truly being transformed by my knowledge and new skills and in the process am transforming my family.

We are downsizing our lifestyle. Much more energy conscious (although I was headed that way pre-pandemic prepping). Eating much better whole grain, homemade foods, much of it grown ourselves. We’re off fossil fuels as our primary heat source at this point (which feels great!). We’re canning and root cellaring. For our family, we are really experiencing a lifestyle change that I think will endure even post-pandemic. Assuming, that is, that we endure during pandemic. Here’s hoping.

Wolverine – at 18:09

pogge – at 17:21

Interesting. Well…truth be told, Angela is my better half. We were drawn to the Wiki for the discussion value. And for the record, her first post was on Makassar. She was trying to understand the disappearance of a news story and was successful in finding answers. Furthermore, I feel that this thread is much more inflamatory than my previous post could ever be.

I stick to my position that a pandemic is no panacea for life’s problems. Learning to share this earth in positive, affirming, and uniting ways, however, is.

walrus – at 18:15

With the greatest of respect, there are people who are even now planning their post pandemic future (on the assumption they survive). Without wishing to get to far into motives and so on,there are a few things that can be said on the Macro and Micro levels.

The first thing is that even at 1918 CFR nothing is going to change, America will be America, China stays China and so on. Its when CFR’s get to 30% or so (IMHO) that TSHTF.

The first thing thats obvious is that competition for currently scarce resources will cease. The new scarce resources will be trained and capable people to provide an infrastructure. Historically the plagues freed up huge amounts of land and property, to the point where lwas were passed to try and keep tradesmen in their jobs and prevent them from becoming landholders instead. The laws about “Adverse Posession” were enacted about this time as an economic necessity - you find land without an obvious owner, farm it and pay taxes on it for 20 years and its yours.

The second thing thats obvious is that with a breakdown of law and order, some countries are not going to survive intact. The Kurds in Iraq will get their own state, there will simply be no one to stop them. Same things around the world. There will be winners and losers.

America is going to find out one way or another if “the freedom to bear arms” really is necessary to preserve democracy, or facilitates descent into chaos - your call.

I am concerned that there are people around who wouldn’t mind if a lot of poor people died - especially all those on welfare, and that is a concern.

Wolverine – at 18:27

walrus – at 18:15

“I am concerned that there are people around who wouldn’t mind if a lot of poor people died - especially all those on welfare, and that is a concern.”

Indeed. I do agree 100%. It is a rather frightening glimpse into the darker side of our nature.

Niah – at 18:36

pogge – at 17:21 “Someone who starts his career here as Angela wanting to talk about “Christians and Bird Flu” and then overnight becomes Wolverine wanting to “debate” conspiracy theories and make inflammatory statements like the one above makes me wonder if we’re being toyed with. Please don’t. And please stick to one name. “

Wow. How offensive. I’ve seen many people stray off of the beaten path of bird flu and not have to endure such a reprimand. I thought politics, religion, etc. was not supposed to be debated here. Just some words of guidance instructing what is allowed and isn’t allowed on the forum would surely have sufficed.

By the way, three people in our home share one computer, and I didn’t know that your personal investigating skills were supposed to be used to inform the whole forum of your own conspiracy theories about individuals particiapting in the forum. What a turn-off.

Niah – at 18:41

The guy said that he and his wife have both been lurkers for a long time, and have recently started posting. (see “welcome lurkers” thread)

Grace RN – at 18:46

Odd question.

I’m sure someone, somewhere is working on an angle for any earth-shattering event to work in his/her favor. Hope it’s no one I know…..

Anywho..f I survive, can I send someone my VISA bill? That would solve some problems for me.

;)

NS1 – at 18:46

Wolverine – at 16:44

Charles Darwin was a rabid racist who wrote -Origin of Species- to delineate the differences between what he perceived to be the “highly evolved” European and the “backwards, simian-like” African. His propaganda has no place in the minds of enlightened men…no offense intended.

Thank you for providing the background so that we can understand why some theories are built . . . purely political and social agendas. A careful review of CD, his supporters during his lifetime and those who perpetuated his ideas in the trailing 100 years will clearly show your statement to be correct.

Isn’t it odd how an unpopular fact like the information that you’ve presented will be openly attacked here when almost anything goes on most topics.

Moderators, please examine your responses here carefully and tread lightly though you may have an opposing view. Which will we choose here on the FluWiki, Freedom of expression or the stifling propagation of popular propaganda?

Your view may not be very well researched and you may have just conducted the standard knee-jerk reaction of the popular crowd?

NS1 – at 18:48

Wolverine and Angela,

Feel free to converse directly using the info in my NS1 profile

Grace RN – at 18:50

Wolverine – at 16:44

Re: “Charles Darwin was a rabid racist who wrote -Origin of Species- to delineate the differences between what he perceived to be the “highly evolved” European and the “backwards, simian-like” African. His propaganda has no place in the minds of enlightened men..”

If this is true, then Here here!(may I add, ….or the minds of enlightened women?)

As for me, this white-bread, middle-class, middle-aged, some-what enlightened fat broad has probably not evolved enough to become a survivalist.

Hope my kids have…..

NS1 – at 18:53

Walrus at 18:15,

You’ve made some excellent points by drawing on historical references. If you have any specific citations and / or links that you can make here, many might become even more illuminated on your descriptions.

Wolverine – at 18:56

My thanks to the cavalry. I must admit that for a moment back there I considered not returning to the Wiki. That would have been a loss, however, as I do enjoy the lively debate and knowledge sharing. <LOL> Here’s to speaking your mind in a respectful way and being brave enough to express the not always mainstream POV.

Bygones.

Niah – at 19:01

Grace RN – at 18:50

“As for me, this white-bread, middle-class, middle-aged, some-what enlightened fat broad has probably not evolved enough to become a survivalist.”

LOL! Likewise, but I’m tryin’!

Pixie – at 19:02

UH….The “Pixie” that posted at 12:33 - that was not me - the actual and “real” Pixie.

“A fresh start to politics and the way we treat the earth?” Nope, that does not sound like me. And I am no Malthusian…

Now this is an entirely new wrinkle in the internet world…

Milo – at 19:04

The evolution debate is too close to politics and religion in the US. Neither subject is allowed here because it causes fights. If anyone posts something that offends you (such as the phrase “survival of the fittest” or any mention of something religious or political or whatever), it is best to grit your teeth and bear it if it really bugs you, or if it continues, to remind people to get back on topic.

People are dying of H5N1. A lot more might in the future.

Let’s get back on topic.

As far as this thread goes, if a pandemic does happen, I hope we can find some way to solve some of today’s problems in the post-pandemic world.

Niah – at 19:06

What is a Malthusian?

(just kidding) :)

NS1 – at 19:07

Grace,

Your knowledge, willingness and generousity to share and your kindness have always impressed me.

We really do all have a deeper introspection / examination to conduct in these coming months leading to PF51.

I know that I do.

Much of what I’ve been taught from childhood was pure early theory masquerading as fact.

Recently, the drive for me is primarily to identify what character traits I may have established due to the moulding from those falsehoods (commonly held societal truths). Once identified, then I can start searching more deeply for the correct answers and I may then begin removing the bias that was introduced from the errant info.

I’m making a strong personal effort to move away from this classic Garbage-In, Garbage-Out (GIGO) scenario to something more accurate.

We either examine so-called facts for evidence of truth and stand with those who are doing the same or we continue in our usual unexamined GIGO masquerade and walk with the popular crowd. Which is easier? Which is correct?

Kind of like this. We may choose one or the other, but not both.

We’d all progress if we reviewed our foundations for those tiny cracks now before the pandemic comes.

NS1 – at 19:15

Milo – at 19:04

The evolution debate is too close to politics and religion in the US. Neither subject is allowed here because it causes fights.

We are discussing a societal bias that will most certainly determine the usage of scarce resources economically. This bias or educational foundation also completely affects the science framing each and every mainstream science solution. The case is open for discussion.

I agree with you that social darwinism is a religion . . . you may not realise that many of the adherents simply eschew the facts?

Everyone go to your studies understanding that there is information that you are missing on all sides. Everyone is wrong because no one has taken the time to carefully examine all sides for validity and accuracy in toto extremis.

Gather and Solve.

LauraBat 19:26

If it goes H2H, H5N1 will not descrimiante “good” vs “bad”, “rich” vs “poor.” Everyone will be impacted. There’s no telling what it might bring. Let us hope that everyone can learn from the experience - learn what is important and what is not. Just even thinking about what could be coming down the pike has forced me to re-evaluate how I look at things and re-prioritize some things in my life. Maybe society as a whole will learn a thing or two (for the better).

Timber – at 19:27

Great thread, in the best tradition of the FluWiki (warts and all…)!!!

So, to get back on topic:

1. Pandemic flu is the earth’s most likely escape from global warming.

2. If the CFR doesn’t decline, civilization will collapse. Commerce will collapse, as will communications and transportation networks. [See the “I, Pencil” thread — fascinating to think that not a single person knows how to make a pencil these days. Who knows how to build a laptop?]

3. With little communication or transportation, we will likely move toward a lot of villages, largely self-sufficient, with dramatically reduced environmental impacts. Unless the pandemic wipes out critters, too, we are likely to see a resurgence of species that might otherwise be driven to extinction by human pressures.

4. There will still be good and evil.

Shucks.

pogge – at 19:36

A careful review of CD, his supporters during his lifetime and those who perpetuated his ideas in the trailing 100 years…

Darwin can hardly be held responsible for the mischief others have worked with his theories. There’s a big difference between his theory of natural selection and what came to be called Social Darwinism.

And only one moderator responded in this thread. Perhaps you should study on that before you lecture the other moderators because of what you perceive as my misbehaviour.

ScubaSteveat 19:41

If you think the gangs and other bad people are just going to sit by and die off you will have another thing coming.

They are probably armed better than most and will do what it takes to get food and supplies…

so in fact it may be the “good” people who have prepped that perish.

kinda like someone posted earlier

“survival of the fittest” and I would add (or best armed/protected)

just my $0.02

Thom – at 19:43

All,

Some really good comments and thoughts – I am hopeful that we will see a ‘better’ world when all is said and done, and I do hope that we all learn that we can live with less, be more earth friendly and live together without the current hate, fear and mistrust (of which I must confess am currently guilty).

I’m old enough to remember that I could leave the keys in my unlocked car and never even consider it may be stolen. We used to leave the front door open and unlocked all the time without having to worry of someone walking in and stealing our things. Growing up no one ever stole my bike or other things we left in the yard. My Mom, sisters, little kids could walk the streets alone at night without worry. We knew our neighbors and could depend on them in time of need, people really cared about each other. Almost everyone I knew went to one church or another. People had the idea that if you did not work for something then it was not yours to have, and if you really wanted something you worked for it and it became yours. The list goes on and on – I for one sure do miss those days.

How did we end up like we are today? Will this pandemic help us gain a little of that back?

I do know and understand that this bug doesn’t care if you’re a ‘good’ or ‘bad’ person – it’s just doing what it does and will take whomever is unlucky enough to get caught in it’s grasp. It is a deep hope that those of us who have prepared, are willing (within reason) to help others, may just be in little better position to survive and maybe make a difference when it is time to rebuild.

So, IMHO, we can hope for something good to come from something as ugly as a pandemic.

Wolverine – at 19:50

NS1-

“…social darwinism is a religion…” An excellent point that I have never considered before. The ramafications are mindboggling…it also explains alot about why our society often functions the way it does. Thank you for the thought-provoking commentary. Very insightful.

Timber – at 19:27

“Pandemic flu is the earth’s most likely escape from global warming.” “…we are likely to see a resurgence of species that might otherwise be driven to extinction by human pressures.

This, at least, we can agree on. It is a sobering thought that it would take something as insidious as H5N1 to bring about these “positives.” Kind of sad actually. Hmmm…

Edna Mode – at 20:00

Thom – at 19:43 So, IMHO, we can hope for something good to come from something as ugly as a pandemic.

Thom, I think the experience were serve as a global humbling and that something “better” will come of it—but only so long as the collective mind remembers the lessons.

Edna Mode – at 20:01

Make that “will serve…”

Milo – at 20:15

NS1 – at 19:15 I agree with you that social darwinism is a religion

I never said anything about Social Darwinism. I mentioned evolution (which is completely different than Social Darwinism) only in passing because someone brought up Darwin.

There are a lot of problems in this world: pollution, overcrowding, poverty, war, ethnic and religious strife, bigotry, hatred, corruption, greed, ignorance. And while I don’t know much about economics, it scares me that so much of the economy of so many countries is based on tourism and consumerism.

I don’t think a pandemic in itself will solve anything. I just hope we can solve some of these problems, pandemic or not. I’m pessimistic enough to doubt it at times. I keep thinking of that line in V for Vendetta: “Every time I’ve seen this world change, it’s always been for the worse.” But still I’m hopeful we can make a better world for all of us. I’ll continue to work toward a better world, whether I’m likely to succeed or not.

Bronco Bill – at 20:15

Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 16:08 --- Survival of the fittest.

Maybe not, in this case, with the fittest being the most vulnerable!

Watching in Texas – at 20:26

Thom at 19:43 - Like you, I find myself wishing for simpler times. However, whenever I find myself wishing for the “good old days” I remind myself that things are not often what they seem.

In the 1930′s, Depression-era families pulled together, made do with what little they had and created some wonderful memories. But, many people starved to death and lost everything they had.

In the 1940′s, the Allied countries displayed heroism and a sense of patriotic pride like the world had never seen. The 1940′s also had Pearl Harbor, the Nazis and their death camps and the horrors of war.

The 1950′s were a decade of fun and frivolity after a decade of war. Malt shops and 45′s, poodle skirts and hoola-hoops. But the soldiers in Korea were having anything but fun.

The 1960′s brought mini-skirts, rock and roll and the life I remember had an “Andy Griffith Show” feel. Simple pleasures like watching the Ed Sullivan Show and drinking a Coca-Cola bring back wonderful memories. On the other hand, the civil rights violations, the Manson Murders and Vietnam were not pleasant at all.

While I long for times to be simpler and family values and morals to be on the rise, instead of the decline….every age has it’s demons. I suspect that post pandemic life will be no different than any other age - good for some and horrible for others.

Ottawa Guy – at 20:39

Wow, I am aghast.

“Charles Darwin was a rabid racist who wrote -Origin of Species- to delineate the differences between what he perceived to be the “highly evolved” European and the “backwards, simian-like” African. His propaganda has no place in the minds of enlightened men…no offense intended.”

Wow! What a statement and what a distortion.

This is held up as fact and defended as truth? Other than assertions from the author of this bit of race baiting (or baiting those who don’t accept evolution as FACT) and the followers of it, no evidence is provided to suggest that Darwin ever wrote, said or thought this. Give me one unequivocal statement, uncontested/valid citation to support that statement and I’ll recant.

None exits.

This is the most awful claptrap I have ever come across in a discussion (and I have been part of a good many). Darwin never singled out any race. Rather, said he, homo sapiens are all the same, descended from a common ancestor, of the same flesh and blood, our flesh is as it is with all creatures. Our differences arise from environmental differences, not divine order. Blacks/whites/asians/aborigines, we are all the same, all animals, all come from a common ancestor.

For the record, Darwin never used the words “survival of the fittest”, his enenies did (and this distortion was later used as a basis for social darwinism).

His ideas were antepolar to those of his society. His society, 19th century Britain and most europeans too, believed that Britania ruled the waves, of the white man’s burden, and all that other nonsense that justified the persecution of the underdeveloped world and of the superiority of the white man. That is partly why he was villified by some.

The statement from Wolverine I quoted above is is a bit of revisionism that is a cancer. It gets said enough times, people believe it because it is concordant with their set of beliefs. “Darwin is evil” and anything that asserts that is true.

Wow, I am just breathless.

This whole discussion, “Will a pandemic solve any problems” is not at all constructive and, in fact, suggests that, for some, there is still “hope” for the “middle class white person” to survive if only those nasty “others” die or, apocalyptically, that white society/middle class society/advantaged few are threatened with extinction (no pun intended, not amusing) by wet backs who, as we all know, would rape your child or steal your last meal.

Shame.

Watching in Texas – at 20:53

Ottawa Guy - um….I really never read all that “white society/middle class society/advantaged few” stuff into the above posts. And, being that I parent a child who is the biological child of those “wet backs” that you reference, I tend to be really sensitive to any allegations of that sort - and I evidently missed all references that are suggested in your last sentence. IMHO, while you have every right to your opinion, you might have over reacted just a tidge?? I think that Thom might have been directing his comments more along the lines of drug runners, coyotes, thieves, murderers, rapists, child abusers, and terrorists and not the lower classes. Just my humble opinion, of course.

Milo – at 20:55

I agree with you, Ottawa Guy, on evolution, et al. I had decided not to divert the discussion further from the subject of the Wiki, but I still feel a bad about not standing up for Darwin more, so I thank you for doing it.

For the sake of forum harmony, it might be best if this unfortunate thread is closed.

InKyat 21:01

There’s a book on my reading list that has perhaps just moved a little further toward the top: David Quammen’s “The Reluctant Mr. Darwin: An Intimate Portrait of Charles Darwin and the Making of His Theory of Evolution.” I heard the author interviewed on NPR last weekend; he offered fascinating insights into Darwin and his methodology.

It is all too easy to pigeonhole people, whether they are ground-breaking thinkers or Flu Wiki contributors. No real human being has ever fit in a pigeonhole.

Orlandopreppie – at 21:05

I remember, prior to 9/11, when I would let the dogs out into my backyard at night. I would stand there, looking up at the night sky and watch plane after plane after plane enter my view to land at OIA. I got so cynical having so many rude tourists come here constantly that I remember thinking “I wish I could see the sky my grandfather saw when he was growing up”. To me this meant, let’s just stop. For just a little bit of time, let’s just stop moving and BE. Then my country was attacked, ironically by airplanes, and it happened. I saw the sky my grandfather saw when he grew up. Be careful what you wish for. The process of “wishing” puts the energy out into the universe and you never know how it will be delivered.

I have found myself, at times, thinking an awful thought…but I’ll be honest. I’ve thought that the pandemic may very well clean up some pretty big problems and I’ve almost hoped for it. Then I think of all the others that I value so much that just won’t listen and I think “God help us”. I try to remember that very few people are either ALL good or ALL bad…there are some, but thankfully not many.

Pogge, I almost dread saying this because I dread incurring your wrath. But in all honesty, you were a little on edge before and it is rather intimidating. Your recent post was also hard-edged. This seems to be happening more and more often and I just thought I would ask, is everything alright with you?

ScubaSteveat 21:05

I think the gang related comments made in a few posts might have indicated a certain race in some peoples minds.

and good catch on something posted as fact and not backed. This type of behavior causes all sorts of problems.

these are just my opinions BTW

thatisall

Wolverine – at 21:10

Bronco Bill – at 20:15 “Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 16:08 --- Survival of the fittest. Maybe not, in this case, with the fittest being the most vulnerable!”

Darwin aside…this is the ultimate frightening truth of H5N1 isn’t it?

What good can possibly come from a scourge that wipes out the “fittest” members of society…the one’s most willing and able to affect change for the better? The heads of budding families, the children who are the promise of tomorrow, and the youths who will helm the ship of society.

Sadly, no good can come from that. None at all.

Ottawa Guy – at 21:14

InKy – at 21:01 There’s a book on my reading list that has perhaps just moved a little further toward the top: David Quammen’s “The Reluctant Mr. Darwin: An Intimate Portrait of Charles Darwin and the Making of His Theory of Evolution.” I heard the author interviewed on NPR last weekend; he offered fascinating insights into Darwin and his methodology.

Umm, I did request: “Give me one unequivocal statement, uncontested/valid citation to support that statement and I’ll recant.” David Quammen is not such a source nor is the “Discovery Institute” whose sole purpose is to advance “scientific creationism” (an oxymoron).

Tom DVM – at 21:38

Ottawa Guy. Wow. That is a heck of a piece of writing at 20:39.

I don’t know the facts in this case but I do not like censorship on either side of an argument. In fact, this is an excellent example of how well my colleagues on flu wiki can discuss differences of opinion while at the same time not insulting each other.

I also don’t have a problem with Okieman et al having religous discussions as long as Moslems and Hindus and Budhists (sorry about the spelling) and my god Mother Nature get equal billing.

For what its worth, I think when we get to the Pearly Gates, we are going to be shocked to find we were all worshipping the same God all along anyway…

…science is built on constructive debate and disagreement…why should we mess with a good thing now.

By the way, I don’t really have a problem with scientific creationism…since in my opinion…Mother Nature is involved in all science.

Thanks.

NS1 – at 21:39

Pogge at 19.36

Darwin can hardly be held responsible for the mischief others have worked with his theories. There’s a big difference between his theory of natural selection and what came to be called Social Darwinism.
And only one moderator responded in this thread. Perhaps you should study on that before you lecture the other moderators because of what you perceive as my misbehaviour.

CDarwin is responsible for the clear vectors of his plotted path. A word spoken, a word written, bears on the world long after the sound has dropped and the ink dried.

He is also responsible for taking up the ideas of his mentors who also were radical racists and eugenists.

Please do not think he failed to understand where his actions would take us. His science ideas unravel under his own words; his social experiment ideas are being displayed in front of our eyes everyday in most of the genocidal, ethnic-cleansing situations throughout the globe.

I made mention of moderators so that our readers would understand the spirit of discussion that has usually been supported across the entire FluWiki community. No lecture was given or intended. Obviously other moderators may have been reading and preparing responses. My comment was a rebuttal of your strong expression-reducing statement and a call to rational for any further such comments (by anyone).

pogge – at 21:41

Orlandopreppie at 21:05:

Partly I shared OG’s reaction to the comment about Darwin. And my natural tendency to be defensive of this place kicked in.

Mostly it’s just trying to be in several places at once. And remember I’m the techie here, not the medical professional. My bedside manner stinks. ;-)

Thanks for asking.

Ottawa Guy – at 21:42

Wolverine – at 21:10 “Bronco Bill – at 20:15 “Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 16:08 --- Survival of the fittest. Maybe not, in this case, with the fittest being the most vulnerable!”

Darwin aside…this is the ultimate frightening truth of H5N1 isn’t it?”

What good can possibly come from a scourge that wipes out the “fittest” members of society…the one’s most willing and able to affect change for the better? The heads of budding families, the children who are the promise of tomorrow, and the youths who will helm the ship of society.

Sadly, no good can come from that. None at all.”

Are you sure about this? Are those who earn 100k a year, live in 3,000 foot McMansions, those who need to consume hundreds of litres of fuel a week to get to work, the fittest people to populate a post pandemic world? The most worthy? Ahem, no.

At my office tower, we have a drunk. He is very smart and resourceful. He sleeps in a tent in minus 40 temperatures and can survive all year long on no more than 200 dollars a month. It is easy surviving on a 100k a year. It takes courage and skill to do it on 200 dollars a month.

Okay, I’m a gambler. I’ll put 10,000 dollars on the drunk to survive the pandemic over the entitled suburbanite. Any takers?

Yep, in the context of pandemic, the drunk wins. And, why not? He/she is the most adaptable. Fair? Fairness has nothing to do with evolution or society nor does wealth. Todays pauper is tomorrow mogul.

Julianna – at 21:43

Pixie – at 19:02

My many apologies - I wrote the post at 12:33. I have been lurking for some time but for some reason had not noticed there was already a “pixie” here. Perhaps I have not lurked in the right threads. If I had, I would have never posted under that name. Very sorry. Murphy’s Law or such. Hopefully this name is not taken :/

pogge – at 21:43

CDarwin is responsible for the clear vectors of his plotted path.

I’d ask what that even means but instead I’m going to follow someone else’s suggestion and just close the thread. I doubt it’s ever going to get back to influenza.

InKyat 21:45

Ottawa Guy - at 21:14

I haven’t read the book yet, nor was I offering it in answer to your request. Indeed, I was remarking entirely without reference to your particular post. I just found the stories Quammen told about Darwin’s experiments fascinating - experiments he and his young son conducted together, for instance - and this piqued my interest in learning something more about Darwin the man. I’m not advancing or thwarting anybody’s agenda here. I’d never heard of Darwin being thought a racist, actually. I read “Origin of the Species” a couple of decades ago and found it intriguing - that’s about the extent of my knowledge of Darwin. Quammen seemed to like and admire the subject of his book immensely and did not broach the question of scientific creationism in the interview. Neither will I. I dont engage in arguments over creationism vs. evolution. Everybody goes home huffing and puffing, and nobody’s mind is ever changed. I came to Flu Wiki to better understand the pandemic flu threat and what I can do about it, not to debate science, theology, and history. As somebody else suggested, this thread has run somewhat amok. Peace then, and let’s move on.

no name – at 21:57

Bird flu is the ulitmate equal-opportunity killer.

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