Forum: Lets Start a Panic Really Why Not

So I am here reading all these threads about the local department of whatever not wanting to start a panic. I honestly pose the question, why not? Now hear me out…What do they expect people to do? So they (or we) come out and say look, this is how it is 80% CFR yada yada if you don’t prepare you will die no way around it. What horrible thing will happen if that is said?

OK enough people run out and stock up, which is what we want and empty the stores. So the stores order more stuff no big deal. People demand answers from TPTB, still no big deal. (This is what I truly think they want to avoid.)

Everyone says panic like its some horrible thing that has to be avoided at all costs and I want to know why. I live in a city that has the highest murder rate in the country and no one is panicked, our country is involved in two wars with countless dead and no one is panicked, hell even on 9/11 I would not say everyone panicked. I say we call their bluff about this great panic that will suddenly envelope us all. People as a whole just do not respond that way. They say we don’t want to cause a panic and everyone seems to just say oh OK no matter what the true reason behind it is.

Now I hear they are pulling this crap that my towns pandemic plan is national security. Bullshit! Its a pandemic not a terrorist attack its not something that someone will read and go eureka this is how to bring down this small little town. I am truly pissed that these pencil pushers are using that excuse to cover their ass. You want to cover your ass? Do your job, do it well, and inform the people of what you did. If you haven’t screwed it up too bad you get to keep your job, simple enough. We need to start calling out these DOH workers or whoever it is that holds ultimate responsibility. We need to demand answers and I want them yesterday, our very lives are on the line!

So I pose it to the greater knowledge of the community, how do we get started? This is not go to the school board, go to the town hall etc. This is balls to the wall full news coverage that they are not being honest. (to what extent that means, I will leave it up to the groups creativity) What do we have to loose? Either they are going to listen or not and we haven’t lost anything. I believe we are thinking too small. If we are going to have an impact why are we holding back? Other than one or two communities no one is making any progress. Out of the whole country that’s not a good number. I say forget dealing with the peons lets move this up to the national level of attention it deserves.

Annoyed Max- Not mad yet: I like the way you think, too.

BTW, it sounds like you are getting to the “almost, yeah, maybe mad now” point.

Are you sure you are just “annoyed”?

The best approach is to get hold of a few high profile reporters - and get the MSM to go to town on it!!! Is any wikian related to any reporter of stature who cd be convinced to write a full blown panic creating article that would get published??

people would stop working and spend the time with prepping and talking to friends, that’s not good for the economy. People would move, stop learning, the career is less important than the health that’s not good for the economy. People would become desperate,angry,agressive.

For the record has enough ever seen the predicted panic? Are we suppossed to believe TPTB prevent them every year? The line ‘we don’t want to start a panic” rates right up there with “once upon a time.”

Max-Have you forgotten we’re in a state of denial?

They’re worried about losing their jobs, pensions, and paychecks, and public trust,

• before* the pandemic hits, and the sheeple are preoccupied and under emergency orders in fear of their lives?

See the whole “The Fear of Fear” column http://www.psandman.com/col/fear.htm

“When officials express their reluctance about “unduly frightening people,” they are literally right. The key word here is “unduly.” Unduly frightening people is wrong.

Duly frightening people is right, and important. The problem is telling the two apart. “…

And this one, http://www.psandman.com/col/tsunami1.htm

(snip)”people are much more resilient than they think. But all governments, and all journalists, could do with a briefing.

What Is Panic — and Why Is It Rare in Disasters?

Some common definitions of “panic” offer clues about how officials view the public:

“A sudden strong feeling of anxiety or fear that prevents reasonable thought and action.”

“Unreasoning fear, causing individuals or groups to lose control of themselves.”

“Sudden frantic fear that often impairs self-control and rationality, differentiated from other degrees of fearfulness, such as terror, fear, and alarm.”

There are three criteria here for actual panic. First, you were very, very frightened. Second, your fear kept you from behaving as you would have if you were calm. And third, what you would have done if you were calm is a lot wiser than what you actually did.

Strong fear itself isn’t enough. It’s not panic if you behaved wisely — no matter how terrified you might have felt. And it’s not panic if you would have behaved just as unwisely even if you’d stayed calm.

Individual panic is fairly common: Your dinner catches fire on the stove, and in your panic you forget to cover the skillet, turn off the heat, or get the fire extinguisher from the cabinet; instead, you flee to a neighbor’s house. And groups sometimes panic too, especially if alcohol is involved; it’s no accident that nightclubs and soccer stadiums are the scenes of more than their share of genuine and often fatal panics.

What is striking in the literature is the rarity of panic in response to disasters — that is, widespread public emergencies. It seems like common sense that the bigger the catastrophe, the greater the risk of mass hysteria. But the evidence is overwhelming that in this case common sense is wrong.

In a section about “misconceptions about disaster behavior” in their “Blueprint for Community Emergency Management,” LaValla and Stoffel define panic as “a sudden, unreasoning, hysterical fear which spreads to other people rapidly.

In terms of disasters it would imply behavior such as irrational flight to escape.” They note that the most common initial response to disaster is denial, not panic.

Panic, they say, “requires three conditions which rarely exist:

Seeing the threat with a perception of possible entrapment (escape route blocked);

Feeling of powerlessness or impotency;

Feeling of social isolation or sole dependency on one’s self.”

This third factor helps explain why panic becomes less rather than more likely when the disaster is huge and shared”…

Peter M. Sandman and Jody Lanard could be in charge and save thousands of lives, compared to just about every single local official I’ve heard about so far…

OK the economy approach, so they keep merrily keep working until the pandemic hits and they all die…Now what?

People need to be informed of what could happen. Putting your head in the sand is not a viable approach. I think if people want to move, change jobs, and say screw school this is more important, then they have that right and who I am to say otherwise. Looking at the economy is a shortsighted approach we have to look more towards the survival of our way of life, hell maybe even our species.

People would demand things get done instead of just going with the flow.

anonymous – at 11:49 : “people would stop working and spend the time with prepping and talking to friends, that’s not good for the economy. People would move, stop learning, the career is less important than the health that’s not good for the economy. People would become desperate,angry,agressive.”

I disagree, anonymous. Most people wouldn’t listen anyway. Some people will hear the message once, and take action to prepare (those people are rare). Some will need to hear it two, three, a dozen, or fifty times. That would allow for a naturally evolving, pandemic prepping that proceeded in stages.

However, if they wait until there most definitely “is” a visibly active pandemic strain that our citizens can watch fell people live and in color on CNN, then yes, there will be panic. They should get an effective message out before it gets to that point with the aim of avoiding that kind of true and very frightening panic.

What about a march up capital ave?Could we bring national coverage this way?

I guess the true question is do we want the “panic” now when it can be controlled and it might do some good in the end, or do we want the panic during the pandemic when it will cause nothing other than death?

Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 11:35

“People demand answers from TPTB, still no big deal.

(This is what I truly think they want to avoid.)”

Bingo!

And it is going to cause unnecessary suffering and deaths; not being honest with the public.

(Plenty of people are already “desperate, angry and agressive”; look around the planet or the neighborhood. Existing problems are only going to get worse if not acted on proactively, before essential workers and law enforcement, ect, get sick.)

I too don’t believe the public will panic (now), the problem would be getting people to take it seriously for several reasons. The problem as I see it is if an all out bliltz is use to alarm the public and nothing happens for a year or so , the next time things heat up there will be about a zero response from the public. I think that some people remember Y2K and how that didn’t happen and compare that to the Avian Flu. I believe this is why some local governments are sitting on the fence. They may only have one shot to inform the most of the public and it better be within a couple of weeks of the major breakout or they lost any hope of having the public listen their warning in the future. It appears that many people who are prepping (including me)still can’t wrap their minds around how bad it may be and that even with prepping they or their loved ones may die and their lives will be forever changed. Add to that some of the people who are at most risk ( the young) never believe that anything bad could happen to them anyhow. Plus there will always be people who take a conflicting viewpoint and where claim there is little to no danger and most people will want to believe them instead.

But we have science on our side that shows the existing danger. The naysayers only have rhetoric.

As a side note Y2K would have happened. Company’s and govt spent years rewriting code to fix the problem. Its not like they were wrong and it didn’t happen, it was prevented.

In my humble opinion: I think TPTB are already in panic mode. “They” are using cover-ups, control of information, tamiflu blankets, and so on. The problem is that all they do is delay the “panic” of the public sectors. Sooner or later the public will learn of the risk and a panic will ensue. The longer it is delayed the larger and more devastating will be the result of the “panic”. It is much better to face your problems and take actions early so it does not get out of hand later.

So everyone seems in agreement, how do we play our hand? Marching could get interesting but I seriously doubt we have enough people to start a huge march. I think its a who do we know, who can we pay off, whatever it takes at this point to get our message out there loudly.

Annoyed—

You are absolutely correct about the “Don’t Panic” issue. I said something kind of like what you’re saying some time ago—only not as eloquently as you. This constant refrain about how we don’t what to panic people is truly condescending. Of course we need to panic these slugs around here that are not paying any attention to this potential threat. Panic them a bit and they just might go out and buy some beans. I agree that we should encourage a few runs on the stores. Clear the stores out. Now is the time to encourage such behavior while there are no disruptions in the supply lines. What’s the worst that can happen if stores are empty for a few days at the time? The stores will build up their inventories a bit and then the next group of people to be whacked out our their ignorance will run out to buy some beans and rice. A bit of panic is sometimes a good thing; especially when it comes before the situation truly warrants a full scale panic. People are not going to start running and screaming in the streets….and so what if they do? They will have their little adjustment reactions and get over it.

I often wonder why no one mentions that “prepping” is good for the economy.

I’m always curious about what people mean when they say “panic.” I envision something like Mecca during the Hajj when for some reason people start to stampede and a few hundred people are crushed to death. Putting that into my world, I have a vision of the governor telling people “don’t panic but an emergency is happening” and seeing the 10 people who live on my street running up and down it, screaming and waving their hands in the air. The whole absurd scene lasts about 3 minutes.

If someone who was about to start a sentence with “don’t panic…” or “we don’t want to cause panic…” would just stop and ask themselves what they’re really trying to say they would reconsider their words.

I’ve been thinking a lot about the reason to keep people in the dark about what (may) be coming. Depending on how severe the pandemic is, there will be a need to keep people working as long as possible — to keep our economy going, yes — to keep supplies open, to keep oil coming, to keep gas coming, to keep utilities working, to kep food coming, to keep medicine coming. The more people know the risks, the more people will *accurately* calculate the risk of leaving home and venturing outside and mingling with others. The more knowledge they have, the more they will accurately decide it isn’t worth it to them as an individual to keep puttininto harms’ way. The more prepped people are, the more they can decide to ride it out — duck under the wave as Goju says — but we need SOME people to carry through of danger, some poor suckers to just keep working, uninformed though they may be.

With a severe pandemic, the effects of everyone being able to just ride it out — well that would take strong central planning (at a federal level because our suppliesnot all local. I don’t believe we have that strong central planning, I don’t believe we have the leaders and we do not have th political will, and in the US at least, we don’t even have the ability to call on a strong military and National Guard to help out in a crisis — for one thing they will be just as sick as everyone else, and for another they have already been stretched to the limit in other areas.

I get a strong sense that those who are aware that a pandemic may be happening SOON and may be SEVERE may truly be thinking, it is best for all that everyone not know. Many people will unfortunately die; there is no way to avoid that. Better to let it happen quickly and before people have too much time to really internalize, from “Fatalities are unavoidable” to mean “*I* could die, my loved ones could die.” I get this sense when I read plans written for public consumption which has an underinflated CFR as well as never really mentioning the word “DEATH” instead mentioning “IMPACT”.

Some people, when hearing that deaths may occur and realizing what it means (i.e. soldiers in battle) may “soldier on” and realize everyone needs to do his or her share. But even soldiers get extensive training ahead of time, to condition them to meet their fate bravely. And few soldiers will willingly enter a battle knowing ahead of time there is only, say, a 90% chance of survival.

We the members of the general public may rightly “panic” when realizing what could happen, but in fact, we may each make decisions which are right for ourselves but collectively would be harmful to our society, and I’m not sure how to get around that.

They are putting off the inevitable if you ask me. The guy I dealth with is not planning on telling the towns folks anything. Sure they are having a “town Meeting” but we all know how many people attend those.

I think there will be a huge problem when they start to herd us into busses to be bussed to the vaccination site. Sounds like what Hitler did. “yes move along, just get on the bus, it is all under control”. Forgive my cynicism but that is the point I am at.

Maybe they really mean to avoid excessive panic…..

LOL

You make an excellent point. I have also considered the idea maybe it would be better to thin the heard out early on and get on with survival. But I would be too big of a hypocrite not to at least attempt to help. I am so sick of watching the news and thinking to myself you cowards why didn’t you help! I never want to face the question “why didn’t you do something to help when you had the chance?” Plus there is the whole not wanting to shoot the neighbors and childhood friends when they come for help. If they wont listen to me maybe some of them would listen to someone else say it.

If some of the public needs to “duck under the wave” to save their children, or their own essential skills for post-pandemic,

equally, some other heroes may come out of the woodwork, or, retirement, and say, I’m relatively expendable, useful, and brave enough (“and I bought my own PPE! hands off!”)

Informed consent.

Consent of the governed. (Whose taxes pay your salary, bunker-tagged bureaucrats.)

Max, ;-) ask the group Scatterbrain to play at your march:

“Sailing on a big ship, Deaf, dumb, blind. Sailing through a wild one. To the other side.

I’m not goin’!- down with the ship!”…

Also, don’t intend to get herded on a bus to a superdome, railway car, pandmeic flu hospice, ect. (The US is going 2 billion $ a week into debt, for what??)

The above definitions of panic, why panic, why not panic etc - they REALLY belong in the http://www.fluwikie.com/pmwiki.php?n=Consequences.AdjustmentReactions page.

Any one has a minute to go there and copy the text over?

Oh gosh, in reading over what I posted, I think I came across as saying I thought it was a good idea to keep people in the dark. So to speak. I don’t. Not at all. But I do suspect that that thought is what is behind some people’s thinking — if that makes any sense. And I absolutely mean no disrespect to anyone who has to work through a pandemic — by calling them “poor suckers” — poor souls may be more like it. But I’m hypothesizing — if I were in charge of the worl — doesn’t it make sense from a societal perspective NOT to inform all the police officers in the big cities if, say, a pandemic is going to kill say 20% of those who catch it? Wouldn’t it make sense to tell them, “Relax, the risk is very slight, bird flu is all hype” and hope they go on working, taking care of civil unrest — until such a time as they wake up and realize, hey, a whole bunch of us are getting sick? Especially if you have no protection for them? And hey, give them the flu shot too — the regular one — and tell them it is 50% effective against pandemic flu. Ought to keep them working for some time.

But honestly, I’m not sure the alternative is any better. I’m not a planner. I’m also not a conspiracy theorist. I think there are just so many variables here. Had we time enough, there might be a way to communicate to everyone — if something dreadful happens, we all are going to have to bear our brunt of it — take our chances — we are used to very few mortalities; that wil change, and we all have to do our share. But for that to happen we need STRONG MORAL leadership. Which I do not think we have. And we need a perception at least that the risk is being fairly shouldered by everyone… not that the rich and well-informed have their own escape plans. (The equivalent of a draft for the military, as opposed to only the poor being enticed to volunteer by signing bonuses.)

It reminds me of the old frog in the pot story. Slowly increase the heat and he does not panic. Put him in the pot and he panics and jumps into the fire without looking.

On the fence here and about to live up to my name. I agree with most, if not all, that I just read. Seeing it from TPTB’s side can be hard but worth trying. IF they went all out and scared everyone into prepping and then nothing happened they would have egg on their face. I know, I know, small price to pay but you have to think like ‘they’ think. The best way to plan is to plan slowly and behind the scenes and then implement when/if necessary. I don’t like it but I think that’s what happens. Look in Florida: When a little bitty Category1 storm comes in, they all go into the same mode, verbage, and alert status as if a Cat5 was coming. It makes it that much less real when a real danger comes along. I think it’s just possible that the TPTB want to hold onto all of their ammo until they can be sure.

Also, I have read a few times on the wiki where people are implying that there is some secret level of government that just knows that the flu is coming but they aren’t sharing. I think that is dangerous. I can understand being frustrated but let the facts speak for themselves. Let’s be honest. Anyone who has the ability to watch Oprah or log onto a computer is able to find out about the possibility of a pandemic. The flu will come when it’s ready and not one second sooner. Don’t worry, when it becomes a story you will see MSM jump in with both feet. There’s money to be had in advertisements.

pixie at-11:57

I agree.

I also believe people will panic. You simply can not get a message out to the public, without having people panic. When people are told not to panic, what is the first thing they do? That is our nature, and you simply cannot get around that.

P.S. been gone all day. What is the deal with all this SPAM stuff? It’s driving me nuts.

On board - sometimes I feel like the mom in “Moonstruck” when she slaps her daughter and says “snap out of it!” If more poeple truly understood that THEY could die, THEIR CHILDREN could die, loved ones, etc. then there would be a lot more pressure on TPTB to take action now. Waiting until it’s about to explode - it’s too late by then. I’d rather have the stores crammed full of panicked but HEALTHY shoppers than panicked but SICK ones.

But, like on the fence also said, I can see the other position as well (to an extent). TPTB don’t want to be made fools, they want to keep their jobs, etc. Lots of people I’ve talked about say “it’s just like Y2K” (okay, we all know it isn’t, but most people don’t understand that). However, overall, I think TPTB are hurting all our chances by downplaying the threat. When I showed one local how many people in our town could die with just a moderate CFR (not the 2% the White House forecasts) he went straight to Costco the next morning.

Tuck57 at 12:02 hit the nail squarely on the head… unless you’re living in a vacuum, you’ve heard of the possibility of pandemic flu. Unless you’re living in a vacuum, you know there a possibility that terrorists could blow you up. Unless you’re living in a vacuum, you know that you could get hit by a car and killed today… and the list goes on. People do not want to think about such things, do not want to be bothered, don’t want the normal flow of their lives interrupted for something that COULD happen. Unless and until THEY THEMSELVES believe they are at the brink of death, they don’t care. It is just human nature.

In my opinion, that does NOT excuse the inaction of government officials who are failing to have some kind of even semi-workable disaster plan in place (for pandemic flu or whatever else rolls down the pike). The sad fact is that a HUGE percentage of the population thinks that the government will always be there to bail them out, sooner or later, in some form or fashion. Only after that mentality is erased will the majority lose that idea and begin to look out for themselves, and that isn’t going to happen anytime soon. Just my 2 cents.

and playing down the threat they are. More people are unaware of this situation, than are aware of it. Nobody around here either knows about this, or simply isn’t interested in hearing any “rumors”. These people say they have a hard enough time getting through the stress and demands of their day, (who doesn’t)and simply can not add another “issue” to their life. They can’t care about something that “might happen”, “could happen”. If this is to happen, they want their state and government leaders to confirm it will happen. Just because you or I say it could happen means nothing to them. This is the attitude that I have encountered time and again, not that I push this off on anybody. I just as in casual talk, if they know anything about this avian bird flu. Most responde with “the what?”.

We are just going to have to chip away at this, one person at a time. When the announcement is made by our leaders to the citizens of this country, that yes, we should be prepared, it will be too late. And I can’t help but think our leaders will do that to us. The desperation of millions scrambling to prepare, and demanding to know why didn’t they warn us sooner, they will say, “We didn’t want you to panic.”

Just to verify to yourselves the sad state of a “being prepared” mentality, ask a bunch of your friends and co-workers if they have the following items in their vehicles… a jack, a good spare tire, a bottle of water, a blanket, a screwdriver, a working flashlight. I’d bet nearly all of them will answer “no” to at least one, and I think you’ll be shocked at how many have NOTHING (or have no idea what they might have) in the way of these basic emergency supplies.

Now, is there anyone out there who believes that their car will never ever break down? I rest my case.

I am perfectly content to shut the door, smack in a full magazine, and eat several hundred pounds of beans until the world I left is unrecognisable. Saying that I still feel we should at least try and do something on a grander scale. Even if I “saved” my worthless little town despite TPTB I would feel a little defeated. We have the opportunity and ability to do so much more. Wont anyone else step up to the plate? You all seem so defeated already. Is there nothing else we can be doing?

People do not believe it will happen. I feel like the town nut when I talk to some people. They figure if it happens it happens. the problem with that line of thinking is there will be mass panic when it happens. As soon as TSHTF over there it will only be says till it gets here. On one hand I want to help, on the other, I want to scream at the top of my lungs “See you should have listened to me” “You wern’t as smart as you thought”

There needs to be a slow release of information to residents of towns. Big cities, I have no idea how to do that.

Take EEE. All the towns around us sprayed. We had a sick bird, he was “suspicious” (which I thought was funny) anyways, the LEO shot him and they tested. Still we did no spraying, no public education. The bird came back and was not infected. He came back about 10 days later.

So we would rather be reactive than proactive.

Max:

In my world adults have to take responsiblity for their actions. I see the lightbulb flick on (too late) when they find their lifestyle has lead to their surgery or diagnosis of a chronic disease. First they look gut punched, then almost everyone will say I knew I should’ve done something different, or stopped, etc. They knew and they didn’t change. We see them a few months later now that they’ve adjusted to their illness, some changed behavior, but the majority have not. They will even blame their doctors for not slapping them upside their head to get their attention. Max, these people whine about how much the meds cost, how bad they make them feel etc and even at this point they have not changed the behavior because now I’ve had a heart attack. They’re still not on the wagon taking responsiblity for their actions.

Why are you stressing over something you can’t change. Your worry factor is up therefore your immune function, sleep is down and your blood pressure is going up. Is this a good time to make yourself sick?

There’s a dichotomy in the words you write: 1. You’re worried about people who pay you no mind when you try to inform them and then if “it comes” you’ll shoot them. See?

I think some folks are trying to soothe their conscience so they won’t have survivor’s guilt. Newsflash: Even if you danced naked on the empire state building to alert people you would still feel guilty you survivied because you prepped. Its human nature.

(starting to wish AMNmy could clone himself for distribution)

We just get frustrated because society isn’t run on common sense, ethics, science, and care about peoples’and the environments’ health… that’s not “what makes the world go around”.

People haven’t seen the list of species H5N1 can kill, have not been clearly warned what a Pandemic Influenza Year is, like 1918 except we are not so self-sufficient.

Hard to wake people up, with authorities telling people and media it is “for their own good” if the public rolls over and go back to sleep a while longer.

Leo7:

Your prob right about the survivors guilt.

I actually am 100% surprised at the way this thread went. When I posted these kinds of ideas a year ago people couldn’t wait in line to flame me for having such horrible thoughts such as survival of the fittest. Maybe I am just looking for conformation that it is as hopeless as I thought and God help the ones that didn’t listen. That’s a real bitch ya know, guess you can’t change the world.

by the way you know you all want to see me dancing naked :)

Max - NO - I don’t want to see you dancing naked! ;)

See below posted on 6/12/06 from another site I read.

“4) Bird Flu is at a higher case count than being reported. It is really unknown why the WHO is withholding some information. It was discussed that it is “fairly certain” that there have been some form of human to human transmissions. All stories about it has been squashed. Like the first story that came out a couple weeks ago then heard nothing about it again. On associate mentioned that it is because of the drug companies. They need a certain amount of human to human transmissions to create a vaccine. So in reality they want it kept quiet because there will be a mass rush to stop the spread. So this will lower the casualties. Drug companies need these victims to work on vaccines. These vaccines will be made and only sold to governments. Then the governments decide who gets what doses. Only a certain number of doses will be made and the government will stockpile most of it. What is left will be trickled down for the health care providers to innoculate the general public. Drug companies feel the best place to allow the spread are in places used to disaster, easily explain away a death, no media to report, and honestly in places the majority of the world really dont hear about or care. Bird flu CAN mutate with other diseases. Alot of these diseases are prevelant in Africa. Major manufacturers are not starting to get to the point where production is creating a strain. They are reporting that supplies will run short and it is imminent. It wont happen all at once but gradually. By the time most people will need them it possibly could be too late. It is possible that the vaccine will be so short, that doses may have to be cut in half. Economic issues could damage an already vulnerable economic world climate.”

Does this answer your question?

Yes, greed and disregard for fellow human beings. Better them than us…

Annoyed Max- Not mad yet, having a few of you posted at the doors might make it easier to sleep during a pandemic, (but the clones would have to bring their own food and water).

Leo7, it is partly practical, besides wanting less survivors’ guilt; “they” have me hopelessly outnumbered. Authorites could have given them months of clear warning.

It would be easier if people had had very clear warning; like what Dr.Nabarro, Dr. Osterhold, Dr Webster have been saying, without all the global-economy CEO-bank-account-sized reassurance campaigns.

Yep - it breaks my heart to think that there are folks that believe other human beings are simply “expendable.”

Where did we lose that sense of world community? Has capitalism taken us to a place where we no longer care for our world neighbors? Is this why we have so many horrendous acts of violence? Have we truly forgotten to “love one another” in the quest for the almighty dollar?

Sad, sad, sad.

lets hope there is a H-H local case running a little amok before the real thing, that will wake up some. And yeah I realy dont se the harm.. (exept the clerks in the shops will be stressed.. and the stocks crash a litle.. ups! that is not so good.. :-/

Bluebonnet, no I don’t believe that people are expendable. I would LOVE it if everyone would be kind to one another, worked and played together without violence or hatred, truly took care of one another. Fact is that the vast majority will not. It is also a fact that many, if not most, will ignore the plight of their fellows and will do whatever it takes to take care of #1.

That said, however, even Jesus realized that a huge percentage of the people who heard His message would pay it no attention and would continue living their lives as if they’d heard nothing. We are the choir, preaching to ourselves… every once in a while someone may hear our message and heed it, but it’s going to be a long uphill (mostly losing) battle.

perhaps the slow release was started in the media, but something had obviously happened. Were once we were inundated with news of avian bird flu, silence has taken it place, and I would like to know why. At least people where willing to talk about it then.

Bluebonnet – at 17:13 Where did we lose that sense of world community? Has capitalism taken us to a place where we no longer care for our world neighbors?

The move from ineffective altruism to a set of objectivist ethics is not new. Ayn Rand wrote The Virtue of Selfishness 45 years ago.

The book was selected as the greatest non-fiction book of the Twentieth Century in a Modern Library readers’ poll. It identifies and validates egoism as a rational code of ethics, demonstrates the destructiveness of altruism, and defines the nature of a proper government.

Two exerpts:

“Ethics is not a mystic fantasy — nor a social convention — nor a dispensable, subjective luxury. . . . Ethics is an objective necessity of man’s survival — not by the grace of the supernatural nor of your neighbors nor of your whims, but by the grace of reality and the nature of life.”

“Every human being is an end in himself, not the means to the ends or the welfare of others, and therefore, man must live for his own sake, neither sacrificing himself to others nor sacrificing others to himself.”

It is a shame when people’s personal agendas get in the way and so they cannot prepare the rest of the world. I hate to say but when this is over there will be a lot more damage than is necessary due to the egos of TPTB.

Birdie Kate – at 18:29

“I hate to say but when this is over there will be a lot more damage than is necessary due to the egos of TPTB.”

If H5N1 goes pandemic and if it retains its present lethality, if, if, if…

It’s popular to bash TPTB and often there is good reason, but people are acting as if a horrific pandemic is a foregone conclusion.

On the fence and leaning – at 14:42 made an excellent point:

“Seeing it from TPTB’s side can be hard but worth trying. IF they went all out and scared everyone into prepping and then nothing happened they would have egg on their face. I know, I know, small price to pay but you have to think like ‘they’ think.”

It’s like the “Boy who cried wolf” and people need to understand this. If they yell too loud and nothing happens, it erodes their credibility and they have less the next time - when they might need it even more.

It is a delicate balancing act that people need to try to understand. Not all public officials are corrupt, lazy, stupid, inept… These people have families and loved ones too whom they care about.

Instead of throwing so many rocks, try to walk a mile in their shoes - just to try and begin to understand why they work the way they do.

Better to try and prepare for one and be wrong;

rather foolish do nothing and hope H5N1 doesn’t do anything either,

or negelect to give people clear warning and time to prepare for supply disruptions, where, unlike 1918, we’re had plenty of evidence the genie is out of the bottle.

Since when is preparing to care for oneself and ones family an “Agenda”? It used to be a way of life in this country. Now we seem to think that we can abdicate that responsibility to those pesky “PTB” and blame the Government for … what was the quote “the inaction of government officials who are failing to have some kind of even semi-workable disaster plan in place (for pandemic flu or whatever else rolls down the pike).”

There is a basic difference in political philosophy. One side believes “the Government” should be more responsible and prepared for every weirdness nature can send us at any given moment without technical difficulty. Good luck with that by the way.

The other side believes people should take respnsibility for their own well being. This is where I am. I believe the Government should warn me, and let me take it from there. They have warned me, I’m taking it from there.

If I could afford to buy the food/filter/medicine/water storage, etc. for the other 584 houses in my neighborhood I would. But I can’t. They have had the same access to information that I have had and most didn’t pursue it any further. I refuse to feel guilty for taking care of myself and my family. I think the Government has been doing a fine job of getting the word out…it’s why I found FluWikie and the other sources I’ve used to educate myself. But then I don’t need to be put in a high chair, bibbed, and spoon fed.

I am still only a human. I can try to help others, but if they won’t stop spending their on say, backyard temple/gazebos, lighting and flooring then why should I feed them? Or better yet, HOW can I feed them, their two adult children, two significant others, and three grandchildren? I just tried to get my OWN mother to prep. Just came home from the conversation thirty minutes ago. I received the same eye rolling, “remember Y2K” thing I get from people I’ve already BEGGED to pay attention. This from my own mother. You’d think I’d have some credibility there wouldn’t you?

So now I know that to keep my OWN mother and step father from starving to death I have to find a way to feed them too. What, I should feel guilty that I can’t afford to pay my mortgage and buy enough rice to feed 585 other households too? Let’s start a panic parade and get these people to march past my mothers house. Then I’ll be happy to share what I have to buy for her.

in other words, it’s better to be safe than sorry. I for one would not condem my leaders for giving me a heads up on this, and say, “Folks, this looks pretty serious, and we believe that it is in everybody’s best interest to make some preparations. We do not have a clear picture on this as of yet, and in the event that it became serious, the citizens of this country should, must be prepared.”, and then nothing happened. Quiet frankly, being warned of potiental situations, in our day in time, this is something that should become more common place in our lives. There is too much going on in this great big world that will affect us in one form or another.

sadly though, we have looked to our leaders to give us information, and help, and have recieved none. If these people will not help us, before it’s too late, we have no choice than to help ourselves any way we can. as to those people who are not remotely interested in hearing about this situation, all I can say is good luck. I can only do so much, by bringing this to their attention, but I cann’t do anything else. either they will see the need to prepare, or they won’t. Time is precious, and I move on the next one, and hope they are willing to see the need.

As I’ve said before, I’m more scared of Government reaction to a pandemic then I am of the pandemic itself. My reasoning is relatively simple and is based on an understanding of the real concerns of TPTB, and in fact the whole of the civil service.

The real concern of this group are maintenance of the rule of law, and failing that, the very systems and mechanisms of government. I cannot overstate this.

You must understand that TPTB, from Presidents down to the local Sherriff understand that this will be their one and only priority during a bad pandemic.

Sure they will do what they can for us, they are not monsters, but it is a matter of life or death to understand that your or my survival is of absolutely no consequence to them. I’m not being paranoid, I’m just stating the hard facts. We will be treated exactly like soldiers. We will be told what to do and when to do it, and if there are casualties - well sorry fella.

If you accept what I am saying, then you can start to understand the possible actions that can be taken in the event of a bad pandemic and plan to avoid potential ill effects on yourself and family. This is the bit that scares me.

Firstly, and this is critical, in a bad pandemic, the Government, at all levels, will brook absolutely no challenge to its authority, no matter how small, comparatively minor, trivial, pointless or inconsequential it seems. Anyone who has been in the Army will know what I mean.

This is real reason behind the chilling comment in “Thoughts on Disaster survival” (frogs homepage)reproduced below;

“[b]6. Self-reliance seems to draw suspicion upon you from the authorities.[/b] I’ve mentioned this in a previous e-mail, but I’ve had many more reports of it from those who survived or bugged out, and it bears re-emphasizing. For reasons unknown and unfathomable, rescue authorities seem to regard with suspicion those who’ve made provision for their safety and have survived (or bugged out) in good shape. It seems to be a combination of “How could you cope when so many others haven’t?”, “You must have taken advantage of others to be so well off”, and “We’ve come all this way to help, so how dare you not need our assistance?” I have no idea why this should be the case… but there have been enough reports of it that it seems to be a widespread problem. Any ideas from readers?”

My number one rule for survival in a pandemic is to avoid any contact with authorities at all costs, because once you are in their site, they will presume to tell you what to do, and if you complain that it is not in your interest to comply, you will end up in jail or dead.

For this reason I believe it is essential to maintain as low a profile as possible and not draw attention to your self at all, and of course don’t ever criticise TPTB. If you don’t you risk your preps (especially weapons) being confiscated and potentially conscripted into compulsory labor (as has already been suggested will be necessary in the Booze Allen Scenario exercise).

My other concern is about “bugging out”. It will be too late once the Flu hits your city because authorities will immediately “take control” of the roads out. I was within twelve hours of “Bugging Out” when a vietnamese airline passenger was taken to hospital in Sydney(600 miles away) with suspected BF two weeks ago. There are all sorts of reasons why bugging out at the last minute can go wrong. These include:

1. Falling prey to the less well prepared as happend during Katrina. I’m not sure if he was joking, but one guy on a website was talking about him bugging out in a large motor home, towing a trailer full of fuel and trailbikes. This is asking for trouble.

2. Being “directed” by police into an area where you don’t want to go, like maybe a camp already full of infected people.

3. Road blocks and being ‘directed” by town sherrifs or others to go away.

For any of you who have been in the army, or have read stuff like “Catch 22″ you will, I think, understand the pointless stupidity of actions often taken by low level officers and bureaucrats. We are going to see a lot of it in a pandemic and it is of major concern to remove oneself as far from these types of individuals as possible - that way they cannot “help” you to your doom.

As I’ve said before, I’m more scared of Government reaction to a pandemic then I am of the pandemic itself. My reasoning is relatively simple and is based on an understanding of the real concerns of TPTB, and in fact the whole of the civil service.

The real concern of this group are maintenance of the rule of law, and failing that, the very systems and mechanisms of government. I cannot overstate this.

You must understand that TPTB, from Presidents down to the local Sherriff understand that this will be their one and only priority during a bad pandemic.

Sure they will do what they can for us, they are not monsters, but it is a matter of life or death to understand that your or my survival is of absolutely no consequence to them. I’m not being paranoid, I’m just stating the hard facts. We will be treated exactly like soldiers. We will be told what to do and when to do it, and if there are casualties - well sorry fella.

If you accept what I am saying, then you can start to understand the possible actions that can be taken in the event of a bad pandemic and plan to avoid potential ill effects on yourself and family. This is the bit that scares me.

Firstly, and this is critical, in a bad pandemic, the Government, at all levels, will brook absolutely no challenge to its authority, no matter how small, comparatively minor, trivial, pointless or inconsequential it seems. Anyone who has been in the Army will know what I mean.

This is real reason behind the chilling comment in “Thoughts on Disaster survival” (frogs homepage)reproduced below;

“[b]6. Self-reliance seems to draw suspicion upon you from the authorities.[/b] I’ve mentioned this in a previous e-mail, but I’ve had many more reports of it from those who survived or bugged out, and it bears re-emphasizing. For reasons unknown and unfathomable, rescue authorities seem to regard with suspicion those who’ve made provision for their safety and have survived (or bugged out) in good shape. It seems to be a combination of “How could you cope when so many others haven’t?”, “You must have taken advantage of others to be so well off”, and “We’ve come all this way to help, so how dare you not need our assistance?” I have no idea why this should be the case… but there have been enough reports of it that it seems to be a widespread problem. Any ideas from readers?”

My number one rule for survival in a pandemic is to avoid any contact with authorities at all costs, because once you are in their site, they will presume to tell you what to do, and if you complain that it is not in your interest to comply, you will end up in jail or dead.

For this reason I believe it is essential to maintain as low a profile as possible and not draw attention to your self at all, and of course don’t ever criticise TPTB. If you don’t you risk your preps (especially weapons) being confiscated and potentially conscripted into compulsory labor (as has already been suggested will be necessary in the Booze Allen Scenario exercise).

My other concern is about “bugging out”. It will be too late once the Flu hits your city because authorities will immediately “take control” of the roads out. I was within twelve hours of “Bugging Out” when a vietnamese airline passenger was taken to hospital in Sydney(600 miles away) with suspected BF two weeks ago. There are all sorts of reasons why bugging out at the last minute can go wrong. These include:

1. Falling prey to the less well prepared as happend during Katrina. I’m not sure if he was joking, but one guy on a website was talking about him bugging out in a large motor home, towing a trailer full of fuel and trailbikes. This is asking for trouble.

2. Being “directed” by police into an area where you don’t want to go, like maybe a camp already full of infected people.

3. Road blocks and being ‘directed” by town sherrifs or others to go away.

For any of you who have been in the army, or have read stuff like “Catch 22″ you will, I think, understand the pointless stupidity of actions often taken by low level officers and bureaucrats. We are going to see a lot of it in a pandemic and it is of major concern to remove oneself as far from these types of individuals as possible - that way they cannot “help” you to your doom.

There is that one thing about authority figures. They do not like to be challenged in any way. What they say you had better do. I’ve generally had good relations with any policeman I meet, but then I’m a non threatening female with a pleasant demeaner and I look respectable in every sense of that word. Yet a man might get different treatment in the very same situation. I have generally found men to be kind and considerate, not every one does. Certainly on the internet I have seen behavior and attitude that I never get in person. Perhaps for the first time in my life I can understand why people complain of their treatment. While I am not deferential in person, I also do not challenge anyone in authority. I know enough to keep silent when it counts.I do understand exactly what Walrus is saying.

http://www.psandman.com/col/birdflu.htm

This is a long read but it explains things better than anything I have read, both from the government point of view and from own point of view. Explains h where the government is coming from and why it is a mistake. Basicly once the government is percieved as hiding something then the public (us) aassumes the worst. Anyhow he explains much better:>)

I guess I’m having trouble understanding just what it is that folks here expect the government to do. The very most I expect from my government (from the Feds down to local) is to attempt to keep basic infrastructure such as electricity and water treatment going, and perhaps some semblance of civil order. I think even that may be asking too much if the S really HTF, but I do believe it’s their responsibility to try. Some people here apparently think that government should feed and clothe us, take care of our debts, and lead us to a land of milk and honey if things get bad. Those people, I think, are living in LaLa Land.

Some say the government isn’t doing enough to announce the possibility (and that’s what it is at this point, just a possibility) of pandemic flu. I see plenty of movement from the Feds to spread the message about pandemic flu, even if it’s not as urgent and “end-of-the-earth” as some here would like. I’ve heard the government tell us too that being overweight is bad for us and causes numerous deaths, but I don’t see alot of people going on diets because of what the government says, or doing anything else the government tells them to do to preserve their health. Why does anyone think that if the government tells folks to go out and buy a month’s worth of food to keep on hand that they’ll do it? Talking a daily walk around the block is surely easier (and cheaper) than buying food, yet I don’t see an army of people walking because the government told them it would help them live longer.

The message is out there for those who wish to hear it. Those who don’t heed the message will have to live (or not) with the consequences.

On the fence and leaning – at 14:42

“Also, I have read a few times on the wiki where people are implying that there is some secret level of government that knows that the flu is coming but they aren’t sharing. I think that is dangerous. “

Guess what ?…there IS, they DO, and they AREN’T .

The only way any of us are hearing what we are hearing, is because of what they call “LEAKS” ! Now that alot of the information is out of the bag…they’re trying to cover their collective butts, but giving us that old “ Don’t panic, live your life like normal.” C-R-A-P !

When I first started pumping my nephew in Indonesia about real information; I told him I did NOT want to hear any more of that crap about living my life like normal.

 Know what he said ??  He told me, that THAT remark was his standard line, BEFORE he went to do his work in Indonesia !  ( meaning…he was referring to events like 9–11.)  He has changed his outlook on the whole thing…which tells me, that it’s much worse ;on the ground” then what we are hearing. 

kim-at 22:22

Thank you!!

some how, I compare this situation to the ice storm of 98. They didn’t forsee a sever icestorm happening, but at the last minute, told us to prepare for power outages. (although that’s hard to do at the last minute). they really didn’t know until the last minute which way this was going to play out. Once they saw it was heading the other way, well…. our state did the best they could with a situation that had never happened here before. for some reason, I think that our government wants to see a little clearer how this is going to play out, before they scare the s**t out of people, and I agree with that. the situation is still to far out to predict anything. It could go either way. we here state that we are not going to panic, until until we have to. I think for now, let’s just back off our leaders some, and let them do their job, and we’ll do ours. For the moment, depend on yourself, and do what you feel you have to do. they are in a very difficult position at the moment. In the meantime, we can try to help by spreding the word.

I think http://www.fluwikie.com/pmwiki.php?n=Science.GraphOfClusterSizeAndFrequencyOverTime and WHO’s pandemic stages (are we at stage 3 or 4? is it knowable?) are on oposite ends of the spectrum, meaning we’re on what Monotreme calls “the grey zone”.

If we could get that across to millions, then some would stock-up and some wouldn’t, no? Would that work as a way to have gradual building of stock-up?

I’ll clarify just in case:

http://www.fluwikie.com/pmwiki.php?n=Science.GraphOfClusterSizeAndFrequencyOverTime

WHO’s pandemic stages would suggest reality is “either white or black” (stage 3 is different from stage 4), and that’s what made many of us uncomfortable. This chart portrays reality as “grey and getting darker”, so it makes better sense, explains things better, feels more real to many of us.

lugon

I’ve just checked out the uk preppers thread for the first time, and I must say I”m impressed. I’m hearing very little of that from the american side. we need more ideas, thoughts, and action here in the US from it’s citizens, more than we need the criticism, whining, and complaining. I certainly hope you and your fellow UKers accomplish your goals.

cottontop - anon_22 and flumonitor are asking really hard questions, so no wonder govs are shying away. What it all really means is no gov can do it all, ever, but they must play their part, always. Accepting we’re a network looks simple but apparently is not.

lugon — was it you who mentioned the concept of “Tragedy of the Commons”?

I always have that in my head when I read and think about a pandemic but never quite make the connection to why I am thinking about it.

Here’s my best guess.

Tragedy of the Commons: Free pasture. Each individual shepherd grazes sheep on pasture for free, no cost to him. Benefits each shepherd. But collectively the free pasture attracts too many sheep; gets overgrazed — bad for all.

The fact we are a network is like the tragedy of the commons on reverse. We can each prep alone and that benefits us individually. Or we can spend time, effort, emotional energy on working to prep our community but that could be wasted effort unless everyone is doing their share as well, and even then, there’s no guarantee that our efforts will help our family or even our town — they might end up helping someone else entirely.

???

there’s on old saying, “Be apart of the solution, not the problem”. Each and every one of us has the capability, to varying degrees, to be apart of the solution. We’ve taken the right step in being apart of this forum, but we realize more needs to be done in reaching people. How about some challenges to my fellow fluwikies. Just as your commited to your preparations, commit yourself to doing one thing a week that will inform people. make some flyers, and post them around town. Tell them about this website. Post one in your local library, post office, ect. Perhaps start a group twice a month, basing it on this website. There are elderly people who can not use the computer, some people don’t have a computer, or access to the internet. There is something we all can do. We have now.

Average Concerned Mom - at 08:18

Yes, yes, yes! We’ve been overgrazing too long. Time to switch strategies. That may be all there is.

That’s why we’re trying to reach some sort of “tipping point” so that maybe 5% (or more, we can dream) of many people will prep. That would help.

Of course, there’s also the fact that many other people are into worldchanging so that maybe, just maybe, we’re talking about one thing and the same: resilience and stopping being foolish (high density poultry and oil dependence and so many other things are just plain stupid when we think of it - just plain outdated)!

I visualise this as a needle separating a two-colored arc (think analog speedometer here): there’s dangerous red on one side, and bright green or uplifting yellow on the other side, and the needle is trembling undecided. Gotta push a bit, don’t we?

I agree with all of you. I don’t expect any government agency to care for me and mine - nor do I want that. I am an adult and can care for myself.

From the other site I read:

“Bird flu still advancing. Mutations of viruses are happening so quickly, that once they start to study one, it has already changed. It is totally expected that there are cluster human to human deaths of families that are not even reported. Mortality rates are up to 79% now. They have competely stopped the reporting of bird flu in Africa for some reason. Many more wildlife in North America being found to be positive for some type of H5.

I asked about communication in a nationwide disaster. Said give up phone and especially cells. Internet probably be out. Suggested making a line of communication by hand. In other words, set up a link of communication by hand written notes. If you have a friend in so and so city that can pass it to a contact in so and so city, that can pass to, etc. Am. Radio is going to be 2 meter and HT. But if there is no power, then its only UPS and generator that is going to be transmitting and receiving.

I cant verify this but CDC resignations. This is just what was told tonight. Persons wanted more information to be let out to the public and was told no. Told me they know for a fact they were told, “leave or shut up, there are micro biologists that knew all this was coming too. Going noble may clear your soul but may not be in certain best interest.” They said they knew that virus mutations was beginning and they couldnt explain why. Said they have known for 6 years. They said that something naturally unknown was occuring or it was being manipulated.

They said going north into colder climates help your risk because alot of virus is killed off in colder climates. Also, in the case of a nuke or dirty bomb attack, its less effect when it snows the fallout than rain or land on wet ground. Meaning if you are in a colder climate, the ground is frozen and it cant soak into the ground. Also its easier to move the snow that trying to move away 8 inches of topsoil. Dont know why they brought that up out of nowhere.

Reports of alot of national guard amories being refitting and remodeled. Alot of them having additions for more space.

Just talk of conversation. Not saying any is true or going to happen. As always, its up to you to decide on your own.”

The above is what makes me angry! If this is even 30% true then WHY can’t we get the word out to folks? I know, I know - the LOOK. I keep getting that over and over from folks I know. My doctor friend keeps telling me that it will be horrific IF (his emphasis not mine) this comes true. “It’s kinda like an Earth cleansing, if you will.”

I also don’t understand the fatalism in the above statement. So many folks I talk to about avian influenza look at me and say “God’s will.” Some folks I have talked with ARE listening. I’ve found in my area that all I need mention are Katrina and Rita - folks’ ears perk up pretty good then. Several have told me “the government won’t save me.” DUH!!!

as I’ve stated before, Fort Drum, the third largest military base in the country, (and I’m only about 20 miles from it), brought in “more national guard”, last month, the reason was not explained. Soldiers are being deployed, so why is the national guard “increasing in numbers”?. I’ve lived here 19 years, so I can’t figure it out, unless……..

My issues are with local government who have not told the townspeople anything. Nothing about preparing or what the town has to offer. I have approached them and am told sorry we cannot tell you our plan.

I am not concerned about me and mine it is the rest of my community. Public education can go a long way in reducing the end result.

Their agenda lies in the fact that they don’t like people like me coming in and telling them “hey a POD is great but maybe you should prepare people for the 6 months before the vaccine”

I don’t expect them to take care of me at all but they have a moral obligation as elected officials to take care of their constituents whether it be by informing them of the potential risk or by telling them how the town plans to handle sick people, burials, etc.

Now there’s the Halloween/trick-or-treat chance to hand Pandemic Awareness cards cards or flyers

(or the school checklists from the feds, or find the letter to your state’s superintendants about turing the schools into pandemic (no, “only” called it Influenza”) “Hospital” (hospices?) “Influenza Care Specialty Units” to parents out and about - the most mingling time some neighborhoods ever get.

Birdie - I understand your frustration, but ask yourself this question - would people in your town even listen to your local elected officials? What would be the most credible source of information to get people in your area to prep. It may not be them - it might be a local news channel, paper, or neighbors. Find it and act. I’ve found that you have to approach it at various angles.

crfullmoon:

I think handing out flyers at Halloween is the woosie way of relieving your conscience. Throwing it in a treat bag is a terrible idea, not to mention why upset little kids who will definetely pick up the anger from their parents. Do something else or do nothing at all.

Todays Star Ledger pinpoints some of N.J. problem Evidently we have one of the most complex local public infrastructure in the nation. “we have” said Laura Kahn, author of a two year study”an incredibly intense, piecemeal infrastructure that is incredibly dysfunctional. “ The responsibility of the Health Infrastructure Preparednss and Emergency response unit is to develop a variety of plans to deal with diseases such as smallpox, Sars, influenza, (they don’t mention Avian flu specifically) and anthrax. The unit has been increased from one man to 100 people in the last 5 years. I would suggest those of you in New Jersey read this excellent series in the Ledger. 35 cents. People do read the paper, I hope something sinks in with the readers.

I believe this poster sums up the problem in NJ nicely

http://tinyurl.com/3h68

Cottontop 10:05- Why more soldiers? I believe they are going to be needed in the near future for operations other than stateside. Lot’s going on in the military right now…

Blubonnet. Yes the article in the Star Ledge mentions CDC staff resigning and clearing their desks. There have been funding cuts and many feel the moral problem goes back to these funding cuts. There is evidently a bureaucracy at CDC which is only responsive to politics. Charles Calisher a microbiologist says “Surveillance stinks”.He is a co-founder of a Web site that tracks emerging diseases. ProMed.com… Someone I know commented that someone she knows who is a virologist at one of the University research groups is leaving. There comes a time when people do feel pressured, underfunded and just don’t want the pressure any more.

Bluebonnett:

Why not put what you were told about CDC resignations on the rumor thread? Also, if failure to warn people was the reason why aren’t they going anoyomous on this thread and the hundred of medical blogs and sounding an alarm if they felt strongly enought to quit?

Moeb @ 12:34 - “I often wonder why no one mentions that “prepping” is good for the economy?”

I actually mentioned this on a thread some time ago, and no one responded to it. It makes sense that public officials should encourage prepping if for no other reason than businesses would sell more products, manufacturers would produce more goods, and employment rates would increase. And as someone already pointed out, there would be some shortages, but they would be temporary as the stores hustled to restock.

I am also one of those who doesn’t expect the government to feed us during a pandemic. And I can accept that there will be a health service crisis, disruptions in city services, and shortages of goods due to a crippled delivery system.

Even those, however, who believe in a limited central government and adhere to Thomas Jefferson’s belief that one of the certain duties of a national government is “to prevent citizens from injuring each other”, will hopefully acknowledge the fact that it is our government’s responsibility to inform, educate and warn the citizenry of impending danger. The present government has obviously not reached the majority of the population, and I do hold it accountable. Government at any level, national, state, or local, may be able to do very little once a pandemic hits, but every elected official could certainly do more now.

I am very confused about why I keep reading in various posts “ The governemt should warn people” or other wording along the same vein. The goverment is warning people. Every state has its own plan warning people. The federal govt. has a website warning people. Each state held a summit sponsored by the federal govt. warning people. What more can we posiibly expect, unless it’s an emergency alert across every TV and computer screen simultaneously? That, actually. would get plenty of couch potatoes riled up, but maybe not all the way to the store…….I firmly believe that if the fed’l govt. pushes a ‘real’ panic button too soon, a great number of people will view it the way many view Florida’s hurricane warning system: false alarms beget complacency; when the ‘big one’ really does / did hit, many did not heed the warning (it sounded just like the last ten or eleven, etc) I’m less concerned about people being warned than about being thwarted in their sincere efforts to secure protections for themselves and their community (pneumonia vaccine, tamiflu, written plan forlocal natural gas company, etc.)

bluetide – at 20:20 I am very confused about why I keep reading in various posts “ The governemt should warn people” . The goverment is warning people. Every state has its own plan warning people. The federal govt. has a website warning people.

Not here in Missouri ! We can’t find out much of anything. The KC news stations are doing a “pandemic series” right now….know what tonight’s broadcast consisted of ???

 Something along the lines of : 

“ Officials are looking into turning churches, school gymnasiaums, and cafeterias into flu clinics, should it become necessary.” And that’s ALL they said !

Here in Lafeyette County, our “plans” are up to our Country Health Department----Lord, what a joke. My doctor wanted me to get an adult mumps vaccine when it was going around…they told me they didn’t have any; and weren’t going to ask for any ! My local Pharmicist went to a so-called meeting, a few weeks ago; and She told me; “Well, it will be just like New Orleans, only worse. We will be on our own..as individuals.”

The general public, as a whole,…is royally screwed….I think. And if I had a place DEEP in some woods somewhere; I’d be there. ! Anyone want company ??? ….I come with my own preps !??!?!?!?

bluetide - I have to agree with madamspinner. Many local gov’ts are not doing much beyond devising “plans”. There is very little communication directly to the people about what they should be doing, and what you do see is insufficient (2–3 days supply!). They are telling people what the Feds are telling them and not going any further. There are exceptions (Seattle eg.). And we’ve all agreed that doing things at the local level and get communities to prepare is probably the best use of resources. Trying to get the Feds to act? They have their own scandals to deal with and no one really trusts them after Katrina anyway. Once in awhile they have a little blurb on something, but it’s uncommon. Sadly, you have to repeat messages multiple times in this country to get through to a lot of people.

Leo7 – at 12:56, Guess I wasn’t clear; in the other thread, when someone brought it up, I only said, Hand it to any parents out with their kids. Never meant, give it to the children.

bluetide – at 20:20, Despite having covered themselves technically somehow by having that federal website up since 0ct. 2005, and making speeches or having summits, so some of us know the feds say, Don’t expect Fed. help, and the state said, Don’t expect State help, mostly, there has been a lot of effort locally to “not tell the public”.

Absolutely, what Birdie Kate said, “you should prepare people for the 6 months before the vaccine” “I don’t expect them to take care of me at all but they have a moral obligation as elected officials to take care of their constituents whether it be by informing them of the potential risk or by telling them how the town plans to handle sick people, burials, etc. “

Those are the “political issues” that should be being discussed right now, on state and local levels. Other work is going to end up like whatever was on New Orlean’s agendas at businesses, PTOs, and city departments, ect, before the levees failed (as the scientists had writted a few years earlier they would, when a bad hurricane came along).

Nationally, release reassuring snippets of news if the public pays too much attention (what happened to journalism? were they intimidated by the “don’t tell; it’d be bad for national security line?);

be disingenuous and talk about “vaccine in 6 months” without talking how many could die in that time, (or how hard it is to make vaccine for something that kills chicken eggs? or that we don’t have capacity to make our own vaccines in the US?) what age range that fatality rate currently looks to be.

If asked what’s being done, the public is brushed off by being told they have plans on paper how to hand out medicine to the whole municipality in 48 hours, and have volunteers lined up, (yet glaring omission that there will be nothing to hand out to keep the public from getting a pandemic H5N1, Town Meeting didn’t ask, last April, months after our under-the-radar state pandemic summit, for money for other maintenance or hospice meds, PPE, food, imports necessary to keep town equipment running, fuel stockpiles, ect.

Public (and press??) don’t know enough to ask the right questions and aren’t comfortable contesting answers, but being untold and unprepared will cause avoidable suffering and deaths.

The local officials here thought clear warnings would give “bad outcomes”. (The other poster who said, They just don’t want to hear the public demanding answers to hard questions, may have got what kind of outcomes they are trying to avoid correct.)

The local level authorities have panicked (or, believed those “enron-ed” ass-u-me-d attack and tiny mortality rates (and ignored the whole collateral deaths problem, despite the current H5N1 situation on the ground and experts in their field saying it doesn’t have to drop cfr to go pandemic, and, that it is now in places impossible to monitor).

Madamspinner, I’d want company, but I don’t have an isolated place either. Survivors better deserve and make better governments and stay on track next time about what is really important. (Suppose a lot of history’s past catastrophe statistics have thought the same things, with no effect on future human nature…)

I honestly think we need to give up on why the government isn’t saying more to us, at this point in time. We are going ‘round in circles with this. We need to focus our energy on our communities, and getting the word out to them. As I have said before, we have now. Let’s do something with now.

I honestly don’t think about it, really anymore. It is what it is. When they are ready to inform the public, they will. I’m just as curious about this as you are, but I think in the meantime, we need to be more productive about getting information out to people. I do think that by the time they do make some kind of informative announcement, it will be too late. So, I’m not gonna wait to here from them.

I don’t think most of us are waiting; we have been doing things to inform/warn people for years, and, are probable doing more now than ever, but we need to have someone/somewhere to “talk” to about this, as it is frustrating to go through as individuals.

I am having an ABCTV affiliate cover the story next week.

I think cottontop is right, we need to be making noise at a local level, not so much with the Feds. The Feds can’t possibly be expected to create and execute a plan for every hospital, undertaker, power and water plant in the country (and knowing their “efficiency”, who the heck would want them to???). Problem is, some of us have local governments that are so mired in corruption, graft and good-ol’-boy networks that influencing local politicians is impossible.

I would appreciate very much if my city or county had some kind of even semi-workable plan to try to keep water and electricity going in case of pandemic flu or any other nationwide emergency, but they have NOTHING that covers that. I see no prospects of there ever being a plan either, unless some major company located here decides it’s something they need and are willing to grease the palms of our sleazy local politicians to get such a plan accomplished. Like Madamspinner, it’s the county health department in charge of pandemic planning (oh yeah, they’re paying a number of people to do emergency planning, but legislator JoeBob’s brother-in-law can barely find his ass with both hands and isn’t even motivated to accomplish that mighty task). Lack of preparedness, graft, wasted money and general incompetence have always been the rule around here as far as government goes, and anyone who’s lived here more than a month or so can clearly see this.

I already know that the public is screwed in case of any type of nationwide disaster, that’s why I prep. Anyone with half a brain could look around them and realize that as well. However, my fellow citizens here in this area continue to elect only those who promise them pie-in-the-sky deals and then promptly break those promises, over and over and over again. There are but three possible reasons for this: 1) The vast majority of voters around here have IQ’s lower than 50; 2) The vast majority of voters here just fell off the pumpkin truck as innocent babes and actually believe the crap they’re being told; 3) We have far too many folks voting multiple times and the amazing ability of dead people to vote.

Yep, I know my locality is screwed.

crfullmoon -at 06:54

I totally agree with you. But for the time being, I’m afraid we are going to have to contine being frustrated individuals. Nobody around here either knows about this or cares. I had a dental vistit tue., and I was talking to the dental nurse whom I’ve known for years. I nonchalantly asked her about this, and she had no clue as to what I was talking about, and she seem to not really care. She asked no questions. She is a single mom trying to keep her bills paid, and a roof over their heads. I respect her desire to focus on that. We are in a “damned if we do and damned if don’t” situation. I just keep moving on to the next one, and know that should anybody I’ve mentioned this too, start to have questions, they can contact me. I leave them knowing I haven’t pushed something off on them, or upset them, but that they have a resourse, a connection. I’m here if you have questions. I don’t have all the answers. Heck, I don’t have many, but I can help to a degree, and that’s all I’m trying to say to you good folks out there. frustration can be a postive thing.

 OK. How do we create this panic?

 MSM has blanketed people with the idea that there is nothing to panic about.

 The media is powerful.

cottontop — I think the first few times an individual person hears something about pandemic flu from another individual person, it might sit in, not take effect, but linger a bit — and then the next time, or the next, they might be primed to hear more. Even if you think you are having no effect on them, you might be.

Kim — I agree with you about needing to work local except with regards to our electrical grid and our oil supply. As I understand the Grid — there is nothing “local” about it — we are all interconnected. Keeping it up is a federal concern. And plans should be made — AND PUBLICIZED — that include the understanding that more than 40% of the workforce may be out or ill — and if out or ill and incapacitated, they might be out of the picture for longer than 2 weeks, given that current victims of H5N1 can be hospitalized for over a month. Plans to keep workers protectively sequestered at the power plant (or oil rig) for 3 weeks only don’t seem like they are good enough, either. People must OVERprepare for protecting our electrical grid, or at least (is this possible?) plan to somehow disconnect functioning plants from those that fall.

I read in a link on here somewhere that the power industry learned a lot from that major blackout in the NE. They are prepared to disconnect from the grid to prevent that kind of domino effect from happening again.

I understand the frustration of everyone on this thread, because I feel the same way. I do not think any of our multi-tiered governments are doing as much as they can. Yes, they have websites and planning committees and a few god leaders such as Michael Leavitt spreading the news. The majority of the public, however, do not have time to research websites. Many of the planning committees are not getting much local press. And few people know who Michael Leavitt is. I suppose we have to continue doing what we can - telephoning our local representatives and congressmen, trying to convince our neighbors and family to prep, and spreading awareness of this issue. I still believe that a petition to Congress asking for their support in informing the public about a possible pandemic would be a good thing, particularly if we could get some high profile politicians to espouse the cause. But that’s probably as likely as me winning the lottery.

annoyed max-at 10:04

I learned something too; don’t be caught in town having spent 150$ in groceries! If I had stayed just ten minutes longer in the store, I would have had to come home without food, until the next day. it was still a nightmare trying to keep it from spoiling. So, for lack of anything better to do, hubby went and fought for ice, I used stored water to clean out the 2- 33 gal trash can, santized it, lines it twice, put fridge stuff in one, freezer stuff in the other, kept them in the shade, drained water when we had to. Great thing about winter, unlimited supply of snow! We simply did not know what else to do with the just bought stuff. We did not open the fridge/freezer, to keep it as cold for as long as possible. We made it, and the trash cans served a good emergency vessel. It was creepy driving home. daughter and I kept thinking “Night of the Living Dead.” Signal lights flashing, cars off in the ditch, no radio stations on. I had no idea as to what was going on. Really creepy.

Question-At what point are they prepared to disconnect from the grid? No employees, ect.?

Locally I belive we are screwed. From what I can gather from my town we will be planning on mutual aid from other communities. The town is planning for vaccinations. I have tried to tell them they need to do some education before. There only seems to be a small number of people who care. In that small group of townsfolks they seem to be betting on the vaccine.

I am laying low for a while cause it is so frustrating.

What I remember reading about the grid was they they redesigned the physical mechanisms that disconnect them from the grid so that they open breakers when such a severe strain like the grid collapsing happens. Or something to that effect, the last one only stopped because someone was actually paying attention and saw what was happening and literally pulled the plug before the whole country went down.

Birdie Kate:

  I too plan on pretty much giving up at this point.  I tried but will not go out of my way if no one is willing to listen.  I understand the whole survive as a community thing but thats not how I live my life now.  I am extremely independent and do not rely on anyone else to survive.  I think people like me are very few and far between and will be taken advantage of if people learned we could “help” mid pandemic.  Its pretty much back to the original plan of hunker down with a small group of carefully selected individuals and polish my rifle.  After dealing with the stupidity of the general public and TPTB  I am starting to wonder maybe we will be better off in the long run if the population got thinned out a lot.(as horrible as it sounds)  Survival of the fittest (or best armed) at its finest.  My tipping point on this was reading about the armed closing of boarders and forced quarantine my county plans for, because I am sure all of the small town police force will be very level headed in that scenario.

Am I overreacting? You tell me…Read what the third guy wrote on this survival blog. By the way I dont write on this blog but they have some good advice and links for supplies but they tend to be very hardcore that the end of the world is coming. Which it might very well be…

http://tinyurl.com/lfx2p

For the first time in all recorded history we have a clear warning of a disease in the making and headed our way. For the first time in all recorded history we have the means to get that message to everyone everywhere. For the first time in all recorded history we have the ability to prepare with food and water and medicine for a considerable length of time for the majority of people. For the first time in all recorded history, no one wants to hear anything about it or do anything about it. Is it ironic or evolution?

It is possible that it is slowly, very, very slowly sinking in. Stopped by a Stop and Shop and on the end bins, not only all sorts of water and bottled teas on sale, but quart and pint sized canning jars, tops, rubber seals etc. I have never seen this in our community. People here are not canners. I’ll drop by and pick up some quart sized to store soup mixtures I will be making up for slow cooking this winter. I didn’t ask how they were selling. I also stopped by the health dept to get schedules on flu vaccinations in case I miss out tomorrow and asked about their plans. ‘The secretaries said the people upstairs would know. I asked if there were plans in place, and the girls responding. “OH they are having all sorts of meetings. When I go buy the canning jars I’m going to ask, “What sort of meetings? What is in place.” Thought I’de write up a list of questions rather than just hit and miss.

Incidently I may be a “What me worry” sort of person who has lived a high wire type of life, but I usually am savvy enough to make sure there is a safety net under the high wire.

Annoyed Max, I went to your link above and signed up and posted a message about Pandemic Flu Awareness Week. There’s a check box so I’ll be notified by email if anyone responds. It’s in the advertisements section. Didn’t notice how much traffic it gets.

The part about “I don’t have to prepare, I have a gun and I’ll just take what I want” was chilling. Also, I’m sure my city doesn’t allow cement block walls with concertina wire.

Jane:

Clearly you have never been to some of the finer parts of Philly, razor wire is quite in vogue.

see the thread on “the Iron Law” This explains why TPTB are not doing what they should be doing.

Annoyed Max-Not mad yet-at 11:35-

 Alright!

 What’s the plan..how do we create this panic…its called propaganda..or maybe the propaganda has already taken place….oooooooh!

 But yeh, I’m listening!

Getting the information out - Pandemic Flu Awareness threads, will help.

I’d say, tell the college/university-age students; the Who’s Ten things you need to know about pandemic influenza, from Oct.2005, the quotes that it is local level responsibility to care for citizens home bound by illness or quarantine, current fatality graphs, and, the Awareness week page…

(Aarrgh!! December 24, 2003…”Infectious disease outbreaks of various sizes occur frequently in Massachusetts and affect people of all ages, race, gender and health status. They can range from a single case of hepatitis A in a food handler or a few cases of meningitis in high school students to thousands of people potentially infected as a result of an influenza pandemic or bioterrorist event. The initial response to the health and social consequences of an infectious disease emergency will be initiated at the local level with assistance from the state. Therefore, state and local agencies must have a practical plan in place to respond. The Infectious Disease Emergency Plan (IDEP) provides a framework for a coordinated response to such events.”…

“Assumptions: Influenza Pandemic” (this is a December 24, 2003 draft, mind)

An influenza pandemic is inevitable. There may be very little warning. Most experts believe that we will have between one and six months between the time that a novel influenza strain is identified and the time that outbreaks begin to occur in the United States. Outbreaks may occur simultaneously throughout much of the United States, preventing shifts in human and material resources that normally occur with other natural localized or regional disasters. The effect of an influenza pandemic on individual communities will be relatively prolonged — weeks to months. The impact of the next pandemic could have a devastating effect on the health and well being of the American public.

MDPH estimates that in Massachusetts alone, during a 2 – 3 month period -

Up to 4 million persons will be infected

Up to 2 million persons will become clinically ill

Up to 1 million persons will require outpatient care

Up to 24,000 persons will be hospitalized

Up to 6,000 persons will die “…

Nothing about Pandmeic in our Town meeting, ads on tv this morning telling the public

“what they need to know” about “flu”

-which they have no idea is code for Pandemic Influenza Year

Evidently the public “needs to know” wash your hands and stay away from people who are sick. Argh.

They thought the Big Dig fiasco is a problem; the public doesn’t even see the iceberg coming… And the politicians refuse to talk about it in public.

What is wrong with the journalists in this country? They were supposed find facts and inform the people, not be managed by corporate-politico machines. How about contact university journalism students? Anyone have contacts? Anyone have college kids?

I dont know if anything can be done. Short of taking hostages and demanding to talk to the media I dont know. (watching too many movies LOL) It seems everyone is of the same mind on this one. The real people in charge either done care, are desperately trying to cover their ass, or plotting our demise. The locals are for the most part clueless and even the ones that are willing to listen say “we will follow the govts lead” whatever that will be. (snicker, Katrina) So in essence unless you are extremely lucky with your negotiating with TPTB they are only going to be a hindrance to your survival. Like I said before I am leaning much more towards my first outlook of batton down the hatches and ride it out alone.

Question - has anyone actually done anything here?

I just came back from a meeting with the local church pastor. He was quite interested in what i had to say. I left him the graphs and charts and a checklist for Religious and community based orgs by the CDC.

I am supposed to have lunch with the town health official today…

Next week TV coverage, and newspaper. I am working on local talk radio too. It works - you just have to DO IT.

One thing that raised a few eyebrows in my little town was I showed a spreadsheet running different infection and CFR rates and what the impact would be. Just in my little town alone, if it were 40% infected and 10% CFR, there would be 300+ deaths. That’s a lot for a town of 7500, a town where just about everyone knows everyone or someone who knows so-and-so. And when I showed how many would be sick and dying in neighboring towns and that all those towns rely on two small hospitals that are over-crowded already, it starts to hit home. Concrete numbers are better than abstractions.

Lugon will try to post the spreadsheet this weeked, butit’s easy to create yorself. Just google your state’s population stats, pull in numers for the state, counties and sevreal local towns and run different infection/cfr rates against it. I did 5%/50/50/10/2 being kind of the gov’t/mainstream media’s target (which we all think is way too low given the current +50%).

Goju – at 11:08 Question - has anyone actually done anything here?

Yes, but not everybody here feels the need to post each contact or conversation. I spoke to my family abou it and to my friends at work and at church. I sent my newspapers the press release. We all don’t have the need for attention that you do. Your question is insulting and reveals the fact that you think you are the only one doing anything worthwhile. Get down off your high horse.

anonymous – at 11:28 Soften your rhetoric and talk nicer to my friends. And get a handle unless you are the same one that posts all the spam under the name of anonymous and like to be identified that way.

DennisC

I AGREE!!!

We don’t need this. This is how we start to loose control. Any body that is doing something, man, more power to them.

:-) Ommmmmmmmmmmm!

Goju – at 11:08 Question - has anyone actually done anything here?

Yes, and for at least a year before the Flu Wiki was born, but the Flu Wiki Forum is the.only.place. I have anyone available and willing to “talk” to about this, even if only “virtually”; a handful of people here are keeping me functioning and improving.

Back to what Annoyed Max- Not mad yet said at 11:35, to those pencil pushing PTB,

“Do your job, do it well, and inform the people of what you did. If you haven’t screwed it up too bad you get to keep your job, simple enough.

We need to start calling out these DOH workers or whoever it is that holds ultimate responsibility. We need to demand answers and I want them yesterday, our very lives are on the line!

So I pose it to the greater knowledge of the community, how do we get started? This is not go to the school board, go to the town hall etc. This is balls to the wall full news coverage that they are not being honest. (to what extent that means, I will leave it up to the groups creativity) What do we have to loose? Either they are going to listen or not and we haven’t lost anything.”…

anonymous , I totally agree with your comments. Most of here have contibuted, each in his own way to doing something constructive to get others to prep. If one person only acknowledges his own contributions, this is counterproductive to the wiki way of doing things. Goju has contributed a great idea to the wiki but it should not be held up as the yardstick for the accomplishments of others. Repitition can get very annoying. We all need to appreciate each other and not just ourselves.

anonymous 4: Goju’s ideas are just like the ideas of many others here, is just that some of his ideas have feet. That’s as ok as those here who contribute more in the realm of pure thought. Some contributors here challenge us to think, others challenge us to do. Both approaches are valid, and both are needed.

I appreciate all the attention folks….. I am just trying to save my kids. the more people prepped the better… so if I can help lead the way so be it.

Met with the Pastor of the large Church in town today and had lunch with the Health officer of the town. Very interesting conversations… If ya’ll don’t want to hear about just say so and I’ll go about my business quietly…

If you do want to hear about it, i am more than happy to spend my time and tell you. Please use my efforts as a guide to your own community prep conversations. As a matter of fact, it was FT, FW, CE and Dr. Niman who put me on this path… it took a chance encounter with Dr. nabarro to kick me into high gear and actually put my ass on the line.

My point was not to take away anything from all of you who have walked the talk… it was aimed at all the armchair warriors who talk about doing something like spreading panic…. time is short… its time to step up the game.

Goju — I want to hear what your conversatins were about! I find you very inspiring. I have started talking and find it gets easier and I get better at it each time. Please keep sharing!

I have started talking and find it gets easier and I get better at it each time.

deserves becoming a quotable quote at the quotes thread

same feeling here, btw

Have I been doing anything?

Ask all my friends, coworkers and family members. Oh yes, I have been enlightening and frightening those I know.

For those who might take advantage I have other preps.

Goju,

I definately want updates from you on your progress.

Thanks Kate

Goju wrote “Met with the Pastor of the large Church in town today and had lunch with the Health officer of the town. Very interesting conversations… If ya’ll don’t want to hear about just say so and I’ll go about my business quietly…”

Did this conversation continue on another thread and I missed it? My sister lives near you Goju, Westport I believe. So I’m very interested in your conversation. You’re the reason I finally got her interested, well not exactly interested but her ears perked up.

posted by Blue, somewhere above- ‘The media is powerful.’

Yes, it is. So maybe look at different ways, other than regular newspapers and radio if that’s not working out for you. I don’t have a clue how to do it, but there have been alot of ‘shorts’ on many different topics posted to the web that have become a worldwide sensation very very quickly. It doesn’t have to be popular in the mainstream to be noticed and to get people thinking. If you have the skills and equipment already then the cost is virtually nothing. Just a thought anyway.

ABC TV affilate News visited me and did a piece on prep.

Will be airing during Nov. sweeps 11 PM news.

I printed the new warning sheets last night, took them to work today and made 100 copies. I had one woman ask me questions about them. I really don’t think people care. They are just involved with their day-to-day business and they regarded my flyers as trash. I don’t even have the blessing of my place of business and I’m sticking my neck on the line, but I’d feel irresponsible if I did’nt try. People just don’t want to know. They live day to day and paycheck to paycheck. Some of my employees couldn’t survive 2 weeks without assistance.

anonymous – at 23:48 I think basically you have hit the nail on the head, as to why most people (ok 99%) of the population of this country cannot or won’t look into the avian flu issue. Struggling as most do, like you said from paycheck to paycheck, most I think cannot wrap any thought around this issue,,,it is so foreign to them. When I was putting on fire prevention classes and prep classes when I was a fire marshal, most did not do those things to increase their safety. A few did but most did not,,,and of course when something drasically goes wrong (earthquake, flood, wildfire,,etc), the emergency services are most of the time overwelmed and stretched to the limit (aka gulf coast situation). Of all the people I give information to about the avian flu,,,,again most even now, do not do any prep. All one can do is provide information but it is up to the other person to accept or reject. When the pandemic arrives,,,they will be yelling very loud for help,,,,and the calvary won’t be arriving.

“Some of my employees couldn’t survive 2 weeks without assistance.”

 A bit patronizing don’t you think?  I’m guessing they tossed your flyers into the trashcan.  They must know what you’re really thinking about them.  I don’t mean to upset you, but I thought someone should point out the discepancy between your thoughts and your actions.   

We don’t know what job/payscale is there, Leo7; some people literally have no savings, carry debts, and are not stocked up at home.

2 weeks of no paychecks would put many seemimgly “well-off” households into financial difficulties, if, they assumed two people will be healthy enough to work, have gas/public transportation to get to work, demand will remain for their workplace the rest of the year/forseeable future, the power grid stays up, family members stay healthy; many have car loans, college loans, high rents or mortgages, credit card debt, (not saying this wasn’t their choice, but, govt hasn’t been passing along the scientific warnings in a timely and clear matter, or at least some people might have done some things differently; reassessed their “discretionary spending”, ect) see no need to keep a pantry -all sorts of assumptions, that will fail under pandemic influenza.

And we’ve all seen the reaction in some; the first time or two they get the memo from different sources is Denial, to avoid fear/having to start a complicated challenge to prep to be on their own in a prolonged natural disaster, when they also see no community awareness/action ongoing such as we would like them to take.

Politicians have been happy to keep most of the public thinking perception of reality is more important than Nature’s reality, and natural consequences.

Better if the public decided politicians have priorities wrong for the future public good now, rather than the current situation (disbelieve, and that will keep it from occurring?) being destabilized by a pandemic influenza year.

If the public finds out what the politicians knew from the scientists, and when they knew it, and what they’ve been speechifying about instead… perhaps that would be Outrage, not “a panic”.

perhaps that would be Outrage, not “a panic”.

outrage That deserves going into the Adjustment Reactions page. Govs will need to know that some of the noise will be deserved, asked for noise. From a systems point of view, that is useful information, no?

yes http://www.psandman.com

Goju — I second Birdie Kate’s question — tell us more about yoru conversations! (if you have time) and great job on the media — I look forward to November, let us know when it will air!

lugon — thanks — it does get easier as I talk more about it — I don’t feel like I am keeping it all bottled up inside.

Yesterday I had a long talk with our marriage counselor about pandemic influenza and “my fears” — man, was I on fire — even my husband respects me now (going from thinking I was a loon and wanting a divorce — well we have a lot of other issues too) but I finally told him, darling, you didn’t marry a woman who will just hide her head in the face of danger. I plan to be a leader if at all possible.

(It helped that I had handouts.) The counselor knows me pretty well and I cuold see him going back and forth from the WHO “Top Ten things” list and looking at me — finally he asked me for some more info and links so he could talk with his wife about this… I’m looking forward to seeing him again in 2 weeks! (-:

Brava, Average Concerned Mom !!

(The mental health profession will find themselves drafted during an emergency they missed the memo on, and aren’t prepared for themselves, if things don’t improve soon.)

http://www.pandemicflu.gov/plan/tab6.html

Medical Reserve Corps pdf p4 …”address any mental health support services (for longstanding patients as well as any unique post-trauma needs) that the MRC unit can provide for the community, including patients and their families, and those affected by community containment proceedures in the pandemic influenza response plan and/or EOP.”…

“Unique post-trauma needs”, gee, can we think of some,

if the populace has a 1918 or worse pandemic year, and, just-in-time system and grid collapse?

crfullmoon - great post! I agree with you. Most folks I know are already in “survival mode.” They bought into the whole 3 times your salary for a house; they are struggling to raise children; both parents are working 50–60 hours a week to put food on the table; most folks nowadays don’t cook at home. Houston, TX has one of the highest going out to eat ratios of any city in the US.

We have a new employee from Seattle and she is really struggling this week with getting up at 4:00 am and not arriving home until 6:00 or 6:30 pm.

Parents these days are stretched to the absolute limit both emotionally and financially. Add to this mixture high debt, high gasoline prices (especially here), long work hours and you have “survivors.” All most of the young parents I know want to do is make it home in one piece, tend their children and make it to the weekend. They are sleep deprived, frustrated and overwhelmed with it all.

Now you start telling them about something called “bird flu” which may or may not happen and it is just too much to cope with. It’s just not on their radar, especially with all that is going on in the world today.

Is this short sighted? Yes - but it is reality for millions of Americans. So how do we change this? I’m not so sure we can. Each family must take responsibility for their own lives. I see many folks I work with stepping away from all of this. I’ve seen folks I work with quit working or reduce their hours to be with their children. Prepping takes money - where do they obtain the extra money if they don’t work?

How do we as fluwikians change this mind set? I don’t have an answer to this. Sorry! I, personally, take it one person at a time. I listen to them (secretly shaking my head) and try to encourage behaviors that include saving money, prepping for natural disasters, etc.

Bluebonnet — yes, you hit it right on the head!

there was this mindgame about various ways to make a ball move - you can either push it or else you can stick a finger to make the surface (a matress works better than a hard surface) so that the ball will follow your finger

maybe we should invite the invitable, more than anything else?

i meant to say stick a finger to make the surface “sink a bit”

Some hard numbers: A different, commercially-oriented bird flu forum site sent 3 million emails with “too scary of a piece” to “include [their own] members on this particular campaign”, soliciting visits to their site.

Aside from issues around the legality, the lack of ethics and tackiness of spam, their results were interesting. For 1 million sent (at a reported cost of $1,000): Opened: 338,287 (33%) Click through (went to sender site):8,082 (2.4% of the messages opened) Opted out: 978

So, out of a million, 8,000 did take a look at the site. Overall, while I feel this kind of campign from this kind of source reduces the credibility of Bird Flu awareness so much it should be avoided for those not trying to make money, these are the kind of numbers “scary” stories elicit. Overall, my conclusion is that if bodies aren’t hitting the ground on the local news, I’m not sure panic is going to happen.