From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: When IT Happens

16 October 2006

Goju – at 21:47

So when an H2H efficient sustained highly virulent strain appears, and we begin to realize what is happening through FluWeb reporting, how will we know IT has begun?

Will it be Levitt or some other official announcing it?

Will it be a news flash on MSM?

Will it be certain web personas we have grown to trust announcing it independantly?

Will it be a general agreement after much discussion on all the flu boards?

Will it just be a feeling each one of us will get as we watch all the pieces fall into place?

Or will it be the swan’s feet up?

In other words… how will we know it has begun?

LauraBat 22:00

3rd from last - a feeling as all the pieces fall into place. I don’t think there is a simple answer, at least not at first. I have gotten into a bad habit of thinking participating on the forum would give me some “advance” warning that IT has started. But realistically it could happen very fast and once it gets MSM coverage, that’s when the rest of the world knows IT has happened. when it’s on CNN, I’m locking myself in my house.

Reconscout – at 22:21

I hate to sound too cynical but there was an early indicator of the arrival of the Black Death in London which Daniel Defoe mentioned in “A Journal of the Plague Year”.It was when the carriages of the rich and the nobility,who knew what the public did not,suddenly left town for country estates.In our society it is a question of who would have the best early knowledge that the proverbal excrement had hit the air circulation appliance.You can`t know what they know but you can watch what they do.Any nominations as to who would make the best weather vane?

DennisCat 22:30

It is like seeing a stock market peak. You don’t know it was the peak until it is past and going back down. Until then you never know if it is just going down for just a few days or so or if it is a down market.

You will know know it was the start of the pandemic until after it starts. Until then it might just be a few big clusters and then die out or it may be contained.

If you are a stock market investor, you just diversify over time (time average or value average). For me, I have given up calling market tops and bottoms. For a pandemic, I am not going to try to say this or that is the start. Instead, I just “time average” my preps. I just buy another few days of preps every time the death toll goes up by 5. That way, if it goes away I automatically stop buying, and if there is more risk, I automatically buy more preps.

But I agree with LauraB- it could happen VERY fast when it goes. Perhaps 2 to 4 weeks and it will be all over the world. I pick that time frame because there seems to be 2 or so weeks between “cluster timing”. So if I had to guess, I would say about 2 weeks to spread over a local region, and then 2 more weeks to spread to everywhere else.

DoubleDat 22:39

I used to think that the flu watching community would be the first to declare “it” had arrived - but now I am far less convinced of that. The problem is that we are so worried about “not panicking” that we try and convince ourselves that info is “okay” - “nothing too unusual” etc. That kind of behavior is likely to postpone the real realization until just about everyone else is figuring it out too. I think a few astute posters will figure it out despite the rush to “calmness” but I think the declaration of the collective group will not be all that much ahead of some “official” information release.

Not that it’s a bad thing - just another good reason not to rely on some “extra time” to do last minute prepping. It’s just not likely to work that way (IMHO).

Pixie – at 22:54

I think that if it ever gets to the point where H5N1 goes efficiently H2H, it will look very, very, messy at the beginning (especially if it starts in Indonesia). That confusion will be an indicator - the primary indicator.

With the way that H5N1 is now being handled, a disaster is just waiting to happen. Right now there have been Indonesian cases that are being treated in community hospitals for a week with the misdiagnosis of typhoid. This means that appropriate personal protection probably has not been worn by the medical staff treating these patients who later test positive for H5N1. It is a gift that H5N1 is not easily transmissible at this point. When that changes, the casual attitude we are sometimes seeing in Indonesia towards the proper diagnosis and care of patients will cause a state of panic and confusion that will be hard to miss.

Additionally, there is a stubborn refusal everywhere to test patients presenting with H5N1-like symptoms for H5N1 if there have not been birds dying in the vicinity. This will not change until the virus is easily transmissible, and it becomes evident to all that humans no longer need any chickens nearby to become infected. At that point, of course, it will be too late. Testing for the virus in a world where we have readily transmissible H2H becomes a moot point.

Do I think that if highly transmissible H5N1 begins in Indonesia that there is any hope in containing it? No. The same prediction is true unless it starts in Iceland or Sweden, frankly. Containment of pandemic H5N1 has always been an intellectual exercise, and not a practical one. If there was any doubt about that claim, what is happening in Indonesia now, and the level of messiness already there with regard to the entire H5N1 situation, has ended that debate. We will see it happen from here - the sharp increase in messiness and confusion of the start of this pandemic will not be missed by those here.

My prediction? About a week after we think they should have, the entire WHO pandemic flu panel will sit down to a news conference to explain the situation to the world, take questions, and display international cooperation and solidarity. (Then we’ll all start fighting about Tamiflu).

MAV in Colorado – at 23:03

Pixie, I could’t agree more! A peak of confusion around larger numbers of illness and fatalities. I would assume by that time there may be some video feeds from hospitals/clinics that will entice networks to air , probably before the official statments are released. A lot will also depend on what other catastrophe is happening that week. I’m hopeing the CDC will come forward before the WHO gets around to it.

DennisCat 23:09

If it starts in Indo, we might see such confusion and such. But if it goes H2H in the Congo/Nigeria (first getting “lost” in all the plague cases) or in the Nepal mountain regions, it might come very sudden and be a suprise to all.

17 October 2006

enza – at 03:03

Yep. Panflu is not coming to the party alone, it’s going to slip in through the net with a few other friends—dengue, viral encephalitis, chikungunya, plague, seasonal flu, to name a few.

Dr Dave – at 08:43

This morning Grattan Woodson posted his opinion that although the WHO is only at stage 3, we are actually at stage 4. Maybe word of a pandemic will come to Flu Wikie first and it will be announced by Dr. Woodson. You can find his comments on the “Stop Cutting Bait” discussion.

GulfCoastMamaat 08:54

I have always had the thought that perhaps listening to our own medical doctos or people who work in the medical field would be agood idea. I always felt that perhaps they had an understanding of events that I did not have, or may hunker down quicker than us as they are ‘exposed’ to more and are thus more fearful.

I have spoken to several docs who are friends and they laugh at me as if I were talking about bigfoot.

My close friend who is a doc, I think he is around illness so much that he has grown somewhat immune to the threats or something. I have decided that unless they are tied to bf reeearch, most docs are, in fact, the LAST people I’d trust to make this decision for me (sorry to any docs on this board, I’m not talking about you!).

Don’t know how I’ll make this decision of when to SIP, but one thing is sure - there will be no announcement of anything by anybody until it is too late.

observer – at 09:22

Several points, 1.) I believe taht it is likely the phase level would go to at least 4 in advance as clusters grow; 2.) in fact level 4 will mostly likely equate with 5; 3.) at 4 you will begin to see widespread concern and some level of action in business and government as they try to decide what to do regarding travel and staffing (watch the Congerss with non-essential staff).

Congress will be advised because it must be protected for COOP purposes - Congressional staff is made up of people from all over the US, plans will need to be make for their welfare. Remember during high levels of terror concern some Congerssional offices closed, sent people home, etc. Washington DC doesn’t/can’t move quietly. There will be signs from government particularly Congress, Embassy staff too will recieve directives. Those will be signs of alert - the bigger problem is not the alert but the physical arrival, that could be by plane in multiple places and masked. The question will be how long will it take, where will it arrive and when do you take action. Do you SIP at sign of alert or arrival. That is the question government, business and individuals will have to make. There is no easy answer.

Are we there yet – at 10:29

Reconscout – at 22:21

“I hate to sound too cynical but there was an early indicator of the arrival of the Black Death in London which Daniel Defoe mentioned in “A Journal of the Plague Year”.It was when the carriages of the rich and the nobility,who knew what the public did not,suddenly left town for country estates.”

Reconscout - I have the book on my nightstand right now and sorry, but you do sound cynical and here’s why:

1) “A Journal of the Plague Year” is a work of fiction - not a true firsthand account of the Plague.

2) Defoe was in no way suggesting that the “rich” had some sort of “advanced” notice of a coming plague. In his fictional account of a year of plague in London, what he was conveying were his opinions that a plague could be better weatherd in the less densely populated rural areas than in the middle of a densely populated city.

3) Defoe never says the rich had advanced notice. In fact he clearly indicates all residents of London heard the same thing and had access to the same information. In Defoe’s novel, the rich had country estates or family in the country they could go stay with and they did so.

I just want to make sure we keep fact and fantasy straight here and do not point to fiction as something that actually happened and therefore has unassailable lessons for us that we need to heed and learn from.

The rich had no barometer or advanced notice of a coming plague in Defoe’s fictitious novel and it is therefore not feasible to use it as a foundation for an argument that the rich today will have some sort of advanced notice of pandemic influenza.

Are we there yet – at 10:37

Dr Dave – at 08:43

“This morning Grattan Woodson posted his opinion that although the WHO is only at stage 3, we are actually at stage 4.”

Dave, actually someone “claiming” to be Woodson posted that. I’m not convinced it was him…

Goju – at 10:41

As I ponder this question I am beginning to understand how I will react.

I am watching Indonesia like a hawk - (not one that is falling from the sky). I think we will see a surge in hospital admissions

That will be a bad sign

I am watching India/Nepal/Pakastan - Dengue/Chik - is it really Dengue/Chik? are H5N1 cases mixed into the Dengue/Chik cases?

This is a worse sign… they will say it’s Dengue/Chik till the end.

I am watching Africa - very little news… and what news does come out is suspect…

That is a terrible sign.

Lets not even talk about the black holes of China/N.Korea and all the other places we know and love so dearly.

I think that with all of the patchwork of info coming in here, at FT and FC, we will begin to get a picture that makes sense fairly early in the game.

Things are accelerating in all areas listed above. The tipping point will be when we see those “suspect” cases appearing in cities on international air routes. That ambulence outside your door may be the first case in your city. You just won’t know for days if not weeks.

All we can do is watchful waiting. I do believe we will have advanced warning though, We are too good at this game.

OnandAnonat 11:42

Best case we might have a week’s worth of warning, which will be hotly debated at the time.

Worst case the warning signs get lost in the noise and we get none.

Goju – at 12:38

Worst Worst case - I start coughing.

NoFluingAroundat 13:16

This will not change until the virus is easily transmissible, and it becomes evident to all that humans no longer need any chickens nearby to become infected

Pugmom, apparently the chickens are not infecting these people, according to Dr. Niman. There is no match in the isolates.

NauticalManat 13:30

Could one of the mods email Dr. Woodson to remove any doubt that it is him on the “Stop Cutting Bait” thread, or verify otherwise. Thanks

diana – at 13:48

I’m crazy. Somehow I think I’ll know from little signs around. Bush will disapear and Congress will convene when it really hits. But above all I trust my intuition in everything. A little nagging part of my subconcious will be saying, stay home, hunker down. At that point I’ll turn on the radio and listen intently to the news, which will be advising people to stay home, to hunker down. And I will. But meanwhile I’ll live as usual. It may come, or it may take ten years to really blossom into the monster we are expecting. All we can do is wait while the virus tries recombininations.

Blue – at 16:09
 I think it will be in the MSM that 10–20 people have been rushed to hospital(from where I don’t know). On the day it is first announced..we should start pulling the kids from school and demanding schools be shut and borders closed. Definately start too SIP on the first day, demanding strict procedures be immediately brought into play by this mass individual show of concern. LEAVE work immediately to make sure it is not taken lightly.

 Those on the internet are watching the MSM closer than the general public, but it will be word of mouth very quickly…hours after the MSM report it it will be common knowledge.

 I think it will be “Global” in 3–4 days. Not everywhere, but in a number of continents.

 This is because it will be dormant and be on a plane before its picked up.
Goju – at 21:39

NauticalMan

Pixie emailed Dr Woodson - it is him. No doubt.

Reconscout – at 22:54

Are We There Yet read my post again.The Britian of Defoe`s day was an absolute dictatorship with an overwhelmingly illiterate population;the nobility and the wealthy in that society most certainly knew more about what was happening than the general population.I was making no attack on the rich(or even monarchy)but was raising the question as to whom today IN OUR SOCIETY would be likely to have some degree of advance information if only a few days.The rich have nothing to do with it.These people need not even be very prominent;two privates at a radar set had the first warning of an attack on Pearl Harbor.I raise the question again “Who today would make a good bellwheather.”

That’s Just Ducky! – at 23:42

Goju – at 21:39

Someone claiming to be Pixie emailed him. ;)

Tom DVM – at 23:45

I will know that the pandemic has started…when On the Fence but leaning…has fallen off.

That’s Just Ducky! – at 23:54

Reconscout – at 22:54

I agree with you. Watch what they do, not what they say. The Bush family just bought a 98,800 acre farm in Paraguay. A fellow Fluwikian stated on another thread (Rumors? or What are you hearing in the Field? Don’t remember which) that she lives very near Bush’s ranch in Texas, and that over the past several days there has been strange activity that she’s never seen before, having lived there for years before the Bushes ever moved there. She says there have been many large transport planes and appache helicopters landing and taking off at the airport that Airforce One uses. This was confirmed by other posters on the same thread. This, when there is an airbase nearby that they could use instead. my speculation is that they may be relocating the families’ possessions and/or the families themselves. If we could somehow get more information or confirmation of this, it would be telling.

18 October 2006

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:08

Here’s a link to the story about the Bush family buying land and relocating to Paraguay. Don’t recall seeing this story anywhere in the US MSM.

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={EBA55617−2676–4091-ABBC-20650EB6FEE1}&language=EN

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:11

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={EBA55617−2676–4091-ABBC-20650EB6FEE1}&language=EN

Bush Buys Land in Northern Paraguay

Buenos Aires, Oct 13 (Prensa Latina) An Argentine official regarded the intention of the George W. Bush family to settle on the Acuifero Guarani (Paraguay) as surprising, besides being a bad signal for the governments of the region.

Luis D Elia, undersecretary for the Social Habitat in the Argentine Federal Planning Ministry, issued a memo partially reproduced by digital INFOBAE.com, in which he spoke of the purchase by Bush of a 98,842-acre farm in northern Paraguay, between Brazil and Bolivia.

The news circulated Thursday in non-official sources in Asuncion, Paraguay.

D Elia considered this Bush step counterproductive for the regional power expressed by Presidents Nestor Kirchner, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, Evo Morales, Hugo Chavez and Fidel Castro.

He said that “it is a bad signal that the Bush family is doing business with natural resources linked to the future of MERCOSUR.”

The official pointed out that this situation could cause a hypothetical conflict of all the armies in the region, and called attention to the Bush family habit of associating business and politics.

ef ccs tac rmh

PL-38

enza – at 00:20

Is it me or does the current home page of pandemicflu.gov seem incongrous to stage 3?

Okieman – at 00:22

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:08

“Don’t recall seeing this story anywhere in the US MSM”

The reason why? Because it is bogus.

Okieman – at 00:25

The reason it is bogus? See the news story about the battle in the UN between Venezuela and Guatemala for a UN seat. Simple scare mongering.

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:25

Okieman – at 00:22

Well, that’s good news, but how do you know it’s bogus?

Okieman – at 00:29

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:25

Here is a link. See 3rd and 4th paragraph.

http://tinyurl.com/tn8em

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:43

Okieman – at 00:29

What, you think Chavez had a false story about the Bush family relocating to Paraguay run in that newspaper because he and Bush hate each other? I think that’s a bit of a stretch. I think the story is true. Here’s another, which I think is also true:

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp?ID={2DA7BAE4–061B-49B6–983F-3D69A4396E37})&language=EN

Bush Paraguay Land Grab Incites Unease

Asuncion, Oct 17 (Prensa Latina) The land grab project of US President George W. Bush in Chaco, Paraguay, has generated considerable discomfort both politically and environmentally.

The news circulating the continent about plans to buy 98,840 acres of land in Chaco, Paraguay, near the Triple Frontier (Bolivia, Brazil, Paraguay) is the talk of the town in these countries.

Although official sources have not confirmed the information that is already public, the land is reportedly located in Paso de Patria, near Bolivian gas reserves and the Guarani indigenous water region, within the Triple Border.

Alto Paraguay Gov. Erasmo Rodriguez Acosta revealed he heard that part of the land purchase consists of an ecological reserve (Fundacion Patria), with which Bush is affiliated.

In its interview with Rodriguez Acosta, neike.com.py reported that he does not have documentation of this affiliation and it could not communicate either with the foundation or with the National Rural Development and Land Institute, in charge of these state lands.

Concern increased last week with the arrival of Bush’ daughter, Jenna, and a source from the Physical Planning Department saying that most of the Chaco region belongs to private companies.

Luis D’Elia, Argentina´s undersecretary for Land for Social Habitat, says the matter raises regional concern because it threatens local natural resources.

He termed it “surprising” that the Bush family is trying to settle a few short miles from the US Mariscal Estigarribia Military Base.

Argentinean Adolfo Perez Esquivel warned that the real war will be fought not for oil, but for water, and recalled that Acuifero Guaraní is one of the largest underground water reserves in South America, running beneath Argentina, Brazil, Paraguay and Uruguay (larger than Texas and California together).

“The southern US states are already struggling with water shortages,” asserted the 1980 Nobel Peace Prizewinner.

Orlando Castillo, Paraguay Peace and Justice Service member, recalled the US military buildup in Chaco under a bilateral agreement.

ef ccs emw cm

PL-35

That’s Just Ducky! – at 00:59

Okieman – at 00:29

I don’t know if they’re bogus or not. If you google “Bush Paraguay” you get some hits.

Reconscout – at 20:14
 Even if this story is true-and I have no opinion about that-then it would still be just another long term indicator at best.What is needed is a short term alarm.If a few  congressmen or senators who are on committies related to this problem suddenly head back home for no apparent reason then it might be more of a heads up.Keep brainstorming folks. 
ANON-YYZ – at 21:05

In Canada, the sign will be Federal and Provincial Health Ministers meet and jointly announcing how ready we are with antivirals and vaccines and cancelling of vacations for all health care and essential services workers “as a precaution” and essential services workers to conduct drills, shortly after WHO convenes a meeting of the experts panel, and announces Phase 4 with soothing messages. These together would mean that the train has left the station, and R0 has been confirmed to have exceeded the threshold in an originating country. We may still have up to a couple of weeks before the index case is found on our shores. There will be forceful commentary on MSM to be cautious but optimistic, as no one in the know would be willing to be labeled a ‘fear monger’ and cause unnecessary panic. Most of the public will still be in denial “if it happens, there is nothing you can do about it”.

NW – at 21:14

I expect to be warned when professor Irwin Cory makes the announcement.

Pixie – at 21:14

That’s Just Ducky! - at 23:42

“Someone claiming to be Pixie emailed him. ;)”

No, it was really me that emailed Woodson, Ducky! I forwarded the Woodson’s email response to me over to Goju because I was beginning to think that Goju/Dr. Woodson were either one and the same person or possibly twins separated at birth. The points Dr. Woodson elaborated on in his email, about the importance of local action within one’s community, could have been written by Goju, word for word. It was a bit eerie, actually!

INFOMASS – at 21:25

Anon 22 said that when the hospital systems started to collapse, that would be a sign. The news from India and Kalimantan sounds as if they are getting close to that in some affected areas, but this could be due to other diseases that are epidemic but not pandemic. It also describes (in India) people moving children out of affected areas. It is not conviction beyond a reasonable doubt, but the preponderence of evidence is pointing that way, to borrow some legal phrases. The speculation of a low R0 of about 0.9 per day (that is 0.9 persons per day infected from the index case) for three days of viral shedding might explain the slow burning fuse but eventual explosion - if that indeed is what finally happens.

That’s Just Ducky! – at 21:51

Pixie – at 21:14

Hi Pixie, I was just kidding. A little of my silly side showing.

:)

19 October 2006

anonymous – at 03:57

Question for the mods: Is there some way in this wiki software to incorporate some sort of obvious flashing pop up thingamajig that would catch everyones attention at some point when the mods have decided that the S*@#T has started to hit the fan? or could you just call me?

AnnieBat 04:24

I think a really good indicator would be to have ‘locals’ phone Drs Webster and Nabarro on a reasonably regular basis and if there is no response or the receptionist insists they have left the office indefinitely - turn up the swan’s feet and make the entire wiki site a reddish colour

Fiddlerdave – at 06:06

My scenarios include the less-likely possibility of almost-no-local-spread time before a traveler gets it - spread occurs all over the world delayed only by a few days, which means the local news is important to watch as well. The mutation/recombination step that produces efficient transmission may occur in a single step (“big jump”) from what we seem to have now vs a slow burn of more and more efficent stages (which really is the “good scenario”). The big jump scenario spread speed will be very dependent simply on whether any travelers get infected from this case before the local area is sick big time (which varies - 50 dying in one village in Inonesia, 5000 or more dying in a Sudan refugee camp). Once the local area has it, it WILL spread (their rich will flee for sure), but the index case may shake the hand of a traveler before he knows he is sick. The pandemic strain may become obvious sooner in London, Los Angeles, New York or Podunk, Arkansas sooner than it does in the Sudan or Indonesia, but only when ever larger numbers show up at the hospital for a number of days. None of those cities currently test, to my knowledge, for H5N1 at all. It is my assumption it could be here before anyone knows it, I’ll be grateful if we have any warning. Wish we could have a closed circuit TV at all ERs. Unfortunately, ER’s are backed out the doors and down the street all the time at peak hours now. Plus, some of the possible political world calamity scenarios this winter may really complicate the whole thing (Iran, Iraq, NK, etc.) If we have casualities at home or 24 hour coverage to watch, it may be distracting as well. I fear we live in Very Interesting Times. For notification, how about the voice of that little girl in Poltergeist saying “Its heeeeerrree” when you open the main page? Actually, one of those autodial phone call lists like schools use for notifying of closings would be good! Anyone have the software? I have unlimited long distance.

INFOMASS – at 07:14

How about if the mods simply post a notice on the main page or start a thread saying that they think we are in a situation close to if not yet in TSHTF stage? I don’t know if they could get in any legal difficulty if they are wrong, but expressing an opinion is well short of crying “fire” in a theater, especially if there is smoke. They follow this and could invite comments. I do not want to lose the wiki aspect, but it seems silly not to take advantage of the resident expertise. If Tom DVM, NS1, Anon_22, Dem, Melanie, etc weighed in and sounded pessimistic, that would be information to me. (Getting Webster, Nabarro, etc. is not a bad idea either, if possible - though they might be more cautious.)

Carrey in VA – at 10:00

I’d be willing to help with an “email tree” in anyone is interested in that. Where a few people have email addresses for folks who wanna sign up and they send out a “mass mailing” of “check the wiki, TS is flying”

Bronco Bill – at 11:28

Carrey in VA – at 10:00 --- Ricewiki did something very much like that several months ago, but I’m not sure how far she got with it. Haven’t seen her on FW in a couple of months now, but I think she had some school issues to resolve…

You might look in her profile and see if she has an email address…contact her and find out if she got anything going…

Leo7 – at 12:48

I don’t think hospitals will be a good indicator to watch. They’re already stressed with and it’s mid October. However hospitals will report bad flu symptoms to media and they will put it on local headlines instructing people how to treat at home, and when to come to the hospital, but they won’t call it Pandemic flu in the beginning.

 I think people who work in kiosks, stores, ticket agents etc in international airports is where to target.  Unusual numbers of closed small stores might be a red flag. People would be nonsymptomatic but infectious as they shopped while waiting for connecting flights.  Pilots and flight attendants are also a sign, but they are mobile and hard to keep up with unless a family member is also on flu wickie.  Finding the hair triggers are daily proving to be more difficult to pin down.
Malachi – at 12:54

Carrey in VA, sounds like a great idea!Maybe a thread that collects email of those who want to participate,Spose that would get sticky tho.Who decides,when and how?The mods used to do an update of their “Threat assesments” which I haven’t seen since melanie has been away.I think I recall her saying that all the mods here would do a weekly phone threat assesment together and she would give us some reporting from that.MELANIE….If you are lurking,I miss your input to the wikie and pray you are fine.

Goju – at 14:11

I trust Charlie Gibson - News Anchor ABC TV.

DennisCat 14:16

Goju – at 14:11 I wish ABC would allow me to get their network - (long story, I get dish but get my mail on the other side of the mountain and they say I should get local stations but I cann’t) Someone mentioned him before, but I don’t think I know who he is.

And Melanie- ditto, you are missed, hope you get well soon.

Oremus – at 14:16

Goju – at 14:11

????

Are we there yet – at 14:18

Goju – at 14:11

Enough with Charlie Gibson already. Goju. : ) You remind me of the Martin Short character on Saturday Night Live, Ed Grimly, who was obsessed with Pat Sajack. <ringing his triangle with his pants up to his armpits> “Charlie is really quite a decent fellow I must say…”

: )

Goju – at 14:19

I bet Charlie Gibson is the TV newsman chosen to announce IT. He is “the man we trust” according to the ABC TV news ads. LOL

Are we there yet – at 14:23

Goju – at 14:19

“I bet Charlie Gibson is the TV newsman chosen to announce IT.”

Buddy, you gotta let Charlie go.

It was kind quirky when you started a “rumor” thread about it last month when it really wasn’t a rumor but just something you thought up at home. Now this insertion of Charlie out of the blue and into the forum yet again is a little… spooky.

; )

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