Now that I am feeling prepped to the gills. My thoughts turn to safety. I am considering making a safe room somewhere in the house. Someplace that will be easy enough for us to get to, easy to defend and harder for others to get to. Someplace to wait if the house is broken into. I am thinking of the attic. The pros We have a pull down staircase which we could retract quickly. It would be easy to defend if someone poked their head up. It already exists and I could work on getting it ready now-food water, bed, ammo, toilet ect… the cons..anyone could hear us up there, there is no easy escape if things get really bad, it’s obvious. It may just be a safer place to sleep as I could hear someone coming. If this has been discussed before I could not find the thread but I have been off the wiki these past few months as we have just moved.
Any thoughts
Now that I am feeling prepped to the gills. My thoughts turn to safety. I am considering making a safe room somewhere in the house. Someplace that will be easy enough for us to get to, easy to defend and harder for others to get to. Someplace to wait if the house is broken into. I am thinking of the attic. The pros We have a pull down staircase which we could retract quickly. It would be easy to defend if someone poked their head up. It already exists and I could work on getting it ready now-food water, bed, ammo, toilet ect… the cons..anyone could hear us up there, there is no easy escape if things get really bad, it’s obvious. It may just be a safer place to sleep as I could hear someone coming. If this has been discussed before I could not find the thread but I have been off the wiki these past few months as we have just moved.
Any thoughts
Katherine:
Search the term on Google for suggestions… There are some relatively low cost options such as building a cinder block safe room in your basement if you have the space, all the way to opening up the drywall in a walk in closet and adding sheets of Kevlar.
An attic may be a fall back position, but I don’t know that I would ever consider it a “safe” room unless there was a way to reinforce/fortify it structurally against forced entry. For a determined intruder, pulling up the attic stairs will most probably not be enough.
You’re on the right track, though. Keep working on it. Looking for holes in your security plans is an important and valuable process by which to improve them.
: )
A properly constructed basement room could also afford protection from “other” potential threats ie. radiological/ biological. Probably better natural climate control, atics can be pretty warm. Downhill is always better when your in a hurry. Preps are heavy! Just a thought
katherine – at 01:47 --- Think about a possible fire escape route from your safe room. Does your attic have another way out?
I am thinking of a large cement culvert away from the house. Bushes grown up around it with a blast type door. Exit the house from the trap door in spare bedroom closet. Drop down five feet and crawl six feet to the crawlspace door. Tunnel from crawlspace door to culvert. Once in secure the blast door and sit back. We have been thinking about installing underground shelter with a bank vault entrance. Would cost 35k but worth every penny. Actually going to find a new location and want to do a basement secure room thing.
I have designed and built a variety of hidey holes, safe rooms and secondary egresses. The key to any concealment is to keep it concealed but accessable.
Don’t forget air, BTW, a common error.
ahhh to buy a camera security system for the panic room or not to… the wires and camera’s could give it away (do those tiny camera’s work?)
MAV in Colorado – at 04:46
“A properly constructed basement room could also afford protection from “other” potential threats ie. radiological/ biological”
For a radiological/nuclear attack, yes you want to be in a basement if possible. For more information on surviving such an attack, the pdf at: http://tinyurl.com/y7nvld is excellent.
For a chem/bio attack, keep in mind that many likely agents are heavier than air and would tend to stay close to the ground. This dictates an upper-floor, sealed room strategy. If you choose to use your basement safe room in this scenario, you should be sure that it has been properly sealed and can provide clean air.
For those without a prof. safe room remember: chem/bio attacks you want to go up for safety. Radiological/nuclear attacks mean go down as low as possible (i.e. basement). If a basement is not available, being on the middlle floor in a building away from adjoining flat rooftops is a preferred alternative - see the pdf file above.
LMWatBullRun – at 10:20
A couple of questions for you LMWatBullRun, if you don’t mind…
I don’t want a safe room per se. We have a very defensible area of our home with a separate but nearby spot where our children will shelter if DH and I need to fend off intruders. The space has a concrete floor and walls. (And yes, fresh air intake!) The “ceiling” (which is the floor of the room above it) is regular subflooring covered by tile. DH wants to reinforce this with something in the event that a gun is discharged in the room above. I know nothing about the kevlar sheets mentioned in a post above. Is that a rigid product that could be fastened to the joists in the shelter space? Do you think it would work for the purposes I’ve described? And if not, what would you recommend?
Our goal is to avoid any such confrontations inside the house, but if that were not possible, we want to keep the kids as safe as possible, obviously.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I personally think this is extreme, and I expect the flu will get me before this type of defense ever becomes necessary, but for those who feel it helpful:
Just went out to an Air Marshalls’ training facility last week. If you really want a secure space, you don’t need to go to the expense of Kevlar (it costs so much because it is very lightweight as well as strong…).
If you want a wall that can withstand most anything short of a .50 cal, put up a “sandwich” wall of sheet metal and sand.
First make a conventional wall skeleton with 2 X 4 studs. Metal studs, if available. Then affix an exterior wall of 12 ga sheetmetal. Then affix an interior wall, also of 12 ga. sheetmetal. Run some 4″ carriage bolts through, with the rounded heads on the outside, in a 24″ grid across the wall. The carriage bolts tie the sheets of metal to each other, yet preserve the space between them.
Finally, and most important: Fill the gap between the two sheets with sand or pea gravel.
You can also use the same design for the ceiling of your safe room, but be sure to use 2 X 6′s to handle the weight of the sand, and tie the ceiling joists securely to sturdy vertical support posts.
The resulting wall will resist a determined assault by fire, sledge hammers, axes, guns, etc. The exterior sheet absorbs energy, the sand soaks up projectile fragments, and the interior sheet stops whatever makes it past the first two layers.
It’s about the cheapest way to secure a space from the type of attack you’re anticipating.
Two cautions: First, this type of structure is EXTREMELY heavy (that’s one reason it works so well…). Make sure your foundation can support it (i.e., concrete slab on the ground floor…). Second, some locations might be vulnerable to flooding. It would be a shame to make a nice safe room, and have all your defenses defeated by a smart guy with a graden hose…
Vaya con Dios…
Timber – at 13:10 I personally think this is extreme, and I expect the flu will get me before this type of defense ever becomes necessary…
Yep. I hope you’re right. This all feels very weird to me as we are not gun people at all.
However, we do have non-prepping gun owners ALL around us. We plan to keep a verrry low profile as a means of avoiding confrontation. But if one or more of them tries to get into our house to take our stuff, they will deeply regret pissing off this protective mother and father.
Your application wouldn’t work for our purposes, unfortunately. Hoping Kevlar will. Won’t need too many square feet of it, so cost will be doable.
Kevlar is a flexible fabric which in multiple layers can withstand (some) moderate speed projectiles. NIJ standards provide different levels of protection against different threats.
See this link-
http://www.bulletproofme.com/How_to_Select_Body_Armor.shtml
I have dealt with them and find them helpful and responsive.
However, while aramid fibers such as Kevlar and other similar fabrics are good for body armor, I DO NOT recommend Kevlar for household hardened rooms-
-VERY expensive; -Limited protection; (won’t stop common rifle rounds) -Will burn if heated sufficiently;
I have used Kevlar for fragment containment curtain systems, but again they are VERY expensive.
What I suggest is using either sand or steel plates or both. Depending on the threat you wish to protect against, put either steel armor plates or plywood on the bottom of your floor joists, with properly spaced and engineered fasteners, and fill the interstitial space between the plywood or steel ‘floor’ and the actual floor above with clean DRY sand. Ram it in tight so there are no air gaps; this significantly increases the protection afforded. It also effectively fireproofs your floor beams, and provides additional protection against fallout.
1/4″ armor plate (which is NOT the same as regular mild steel) with a 10″ layer of packed coarse sand will stop .30–06 AP rounds; You’d need more to stop .50 BMG. You will have to have an engineer calculate what additional shoring of the floor will be required to supprot the added load, but this is a relatively easy project to do yourself, which ensures privacy. If you embark on this, think about how to ensure your privacy; you don’t want this bandied about.
While I was working on this I see some similar suggestions.
If weight is paramount, then expect to pay $5+ per square foot per layer of kevlar with over 30 layers required for pistol grade protection. Kevlar will not stop any AP rifle round by itself. Doing the math, getting level II protection for a 12′ x 12′ ceiling will cost $22,000 for the Kevlar alone. Again, this will not stop rifles. You would have to add 1/4″ armor plate with Kevlar below it to stop common rifle rounds.
In short, Kevlar is NOT going to do the job you evidently want it to do. Time for a rethink.
Question- What is the shortest distance from your property line to your house?
forgive me if this is common knowledge, and feel free to call me a dummy, but would cinder blocks stop bullets? I understand that the orginal poster couldn’t use it for the ceiling, but I’m thinking more of walls.
We have been toying with the idea of a room hidden behind bookshelves. I was thinking that we could just line the walls with cinderblocks.
What I am thinking of is more along the lines of someplace to safely hide out while someone ransacks the house. I hope that if anyone comes in it will just be to get what they want and then to leave. I am thinking more the hungry type looking to eat and not intent on harming me or my two little guys. Hiding in the basement feels too closed in for me personally. I did look at some safe room sights and found lots of useful information about surviving if your home is broken into. Thanks Newsie. http://www.crimedoctor.com/panic_room_1.htm
LMWatBullRun – at 13:36 In short, Kevlar is NOT going to do the job you evidently want it to do. Time for a rethink.
Yup.
Shortest distance from house to property line is 40 feet (if you want to be technical about it, but over the line is woods). Balance is 75 feet to road, rest is about 150–300 feet, but again, only to woods.
Carrey-
CMU is brittle. It will stop a softnosed varmint bullet as it shatters, but then it’s broken. AP rifle bullets and larger pistol rounds go through. Repeated shots fracture the blocks in any case. Think ductile; reinforced concrete or steel.
KAtherine- Frankly, hiding is not the safest response. FBI stats show that resistance to violent assault is 3 times less likely to result in injury to the victim. Terminating the invaders before they find you or burn down the building or infect you is much safer. Those who do not recognize individual rights are very dangerous people. Bear in mind that your place is highly unlikely to be the first target for your hypothetical looter; they have very likely done this before. You have no idea what sort of diseases they can have contracted; it would be ironic to perish from HIV or syphilis after surviving having been raped.
Before you spend a lot of money on passive defence I strongly recommend that you make yourself an effective active defender. Take arms
katherine – at 01:47 I speak as someone who lives in my unfinished attic quite a bit! :-)
I have throw rugs covering what’s left of the subflooring that’s not covered in my husband’s huge workshop cabinets and table saw or my eBay stuff! I’ve kept stuff up there for years and my pantry is there too. We had an area with no attic trusses so we boxed it in, added a door, insulated it VERY well, cut through the AC air duct running through the area to vent it so it’s climate controlled and filled it with food. You’ve seen pictures of that room over on the Pics of Preps thread.
My husband’s area is at the top of the pull-down stairs over to the wall we share with the condo next to us — I get the other 2/3 for ebay and storage of camping/Y2k/BF stuff, and Christmas decorations.
Our attic is wedged in between 2 other units whose roofs are higher, so we don’t have end gables that vent to the outside. We DO have soffits under the roof eaves and any attic heat that builds up can only go up so it doesn’t escape through the soffits — it would reach 140 degrees or higher in there on the hottest days.
We installed an attic fan (someday we’ll have ridge vents) and that helped tremendously, but it’s just a hole in the roof if the power is off, there is no movement of air.
I have a heater that Paul Harvey advertises up there for winter & it does a great job of keeping the place warm enough for me to wrap ebay packages, take pictures, list my items at my desk where I put my laptop to work, etc.
In order to get things upstairs, we use a pulley system and a canvas tarp - so that it wouldn’t tear easily if something sharp poked it, like a plastic tarp would. The pulley is installed between the rafters and hangs right over the pull-down stairs. We move it off to the side of the studs when not in use so it’s out of our way as we come in and out of the attic.
I have electric plugs up there for additional lighting, our old living room ceiling fan for added comfort during the summer, etc.
But it would in no way be suitable for a biological safe room in the condition it’s in now. Way too drafty — also there are spider webs which means there are spiders here and there and the potential for bites.
However, if you knew someone was coming onto your property and you could get settled up there with a cellphone and weapon where you might could reach a neighbor or slow down whomever has broken in, then it might be workable.
I think though, that you would be better off trying to do something downstairs, even if it’s just putting a false wall in a closet or something like that, and just reserve the attic for any kind of storage of supplies that you could manage to keep up there safely. Hurrying up attic stairs, in the dark, when you’re scared, and maybe in slick socks or barefooted, is not my idea of safe fun!
Oh, and we seal off the attic fan vent with cardboard when it starts to get cool, so what passive heat builds up, stays in longer.
Not to sound like a complete defeatist but if a large group of armed individuals wanted to harm me they would probably be able to. Honestly I wish I had the choice to SIP with a large group of like minded indiviuals but my family is thousands of miles away and we have just moved to this area so we will probably be on our own. I have two young sons-both under 5 and need to think of their safety as well as my own. I am hoping that if/when a pandemic comes it will strike in such a way that most indiviuals will be too scared or too sick or too heartbroken to want to inflict needless pain on others. If my home is broken into I just want to be out of the way of the looters so that they come and go and leave us alone. The attic may be a bad idea but I do want a safe place to be so that the looters will have such a difficult enough time getting to us that they give up. I attic may be a bad idea. Perhaps a steel reinforced door in the master bedroom. I don’t have the money or the commitment to build a bomb shelter or tunnel and honestly the idea of hiding in a false closet is a little too unnerving a little too Anne Frank for me-oh wait she hid in an attic. I do have a gun and would have no problem blowing off any head that popped into the attic or came through a reinforced door but if there were 15 bad guys…..well it begins to seem more like a rambo movie and less like reality that I could survive that. Again if a large armed group comes I just want to be out of the looters way in a place that slows them down and makes their intent clear if they breach.
sorry if the false closet comment offended..I really appreciate your comments I’m-workin’-on-it. I just get the hee-bee-jee-bees when I think of being in a small space.
I seem to a recall a story of the Old West where a fire was burning through the town and a few men were playing cards in the only brick building in the place. They decided the bricks were sufficient protection against the fire and they resumed playing cards as the firestorm raged. Well, suffice it to say they found out what happens to pizza in a brick oven. Will the metal/sand sandwich protect the occupants against thermal harm? No good if the room survives but you are a crispy critter. Hope that wasn’t too offense a post.
Please rethink your ideas. The concept of a “safe” room is based on two assumptions.
1. There is an effective and available law enforcement presence that will come to your aid within half an hour, if not minutes.
2. You have a way of communicating with the law enforcement officers to alert them to whats happening to you.
I respectfully submit, that if a Pandemic has progressed to the point where you are forced by looters to retreat to your “safe” room, the chances of enough infrastructure being available for you to communicate with the police is limited.
But perhaps more importantly, in this situation the police are not going to be in a position to respond to you anytime, period, as they will be defending hospitals fuel and infrastructure.
In such a situation by entering your safe room you have been effectively “tree’d” like a Racoon. The bad guys know where you are. They can trash your house with impunity. If they think you have something in the room that they want, they have all the time in the world to winkle you out. In other words, a passive defence is no defence at all.
Translation: Don’t do it! Your safe room will be your mausoleum.
Instead I suggest that you build yourself a layered defence. In the army we are taught that you must have defence in depth, so you have layers, such that if one fails there are others - many of them, to protect you and yours.
Let me suggest some layers that you could consider. Remember your first objective is not to stop an intruder, you probably can’t. what you want to do is make it so difficult or risky that they go for a softer target.
1. Precaution number one that I cannot stress too highly is not to make yourself an obvious target in the first place. Don’t tell people about your preps. Keep a low profile. If things get bad, then no generators, no lights, nothing that would suggest you are worth investigating at all.
2. A fence of really, really, nice climbing roses around most of your property - the pretty sort with really big sharp thorns that causes me (or you)to lose a pint of blood every time you want to prune one. In fact as many roses as possible, provided they are thorny. Failing that, lace your hedges and foliage with hidden barbed wire or razor wire.
The advantages are that roses aren’t obviously defensive are they? Visible barbed wire suggests you have something valuable to protect.
3. A dog, preferably large, aggressive and underfed.
4. You roses and fencing should “channel” anyone who enters your property into the position you want them. They should not be able to hide on your property and wait for a door to open. In the army we normally try and “channel” an attacking enemy into the “killing ground”, which ahs no easy way out for them. I’m not suggesting for one minute that you do this, but it would be nice to allow their only approach to be to a front door with no cover around it and good visibility for you and poor visibility for them.
5. Your property should be arranged so that there are no obvious signs that there is anything of value and plenty of evidence that its not worth the trouble of investigating. Think of ruses and be creative. A nice “quarantine Bird Flu” sign would be a help as well as an “undertakers, this way” sign. Some medical waste in the drive way (use your imagination, a few dead animals or a dead body) and some screams and moaning coming from a tape recorder inside would be a good idea if you wish to open the door. You might consider inviting intruders in to “share” birdflu with them. (This will require good acting skills and makeup.)
6. Assuming an investigator persists, I would have an obvious stash of preps that I would give them, all the time claiming I have bird flu and so does the rest of the family - I’d tell them to let us die in peace. The preps would be poisoned with strychnine or arsenic or cyanide, because I don’t want these people coming back - which they will try to.
7. Assuming they still persist, I’d resort to weapons and shoot to kill. By this time there will be martial law and you will be donig the authorities a favor anyway.
I’m sure you can come up with some creative “layers” of defence, including maybe a neighbourhood defence group.
Over to you.
I’m not advocating a safe room; I believe the best defense is a strong offense. I might construct firing positions though.
If you do decide to do the safe room, leave poisoned food and water out for the invaders to easily find.
Ignore my last post. Walrus covered it in way more depth.
katherine – at 01:40 I understand about small spaces ever since I freaked at an MRI……never thought I would…..
Thinking “outside the box” (pun) could you get to your car/van fast enough to head to it as a mobile safe room with bug out bags already in there?
Or back inside, do you have stairs you could build a room underneath that would be bigger than a closet?
If not, then the bedroom door AND doorframe would be your best bet to allow you to slow an intruder down until you could get out the window with your kids & get to the car — keep a set of keys on a nail by the window and another set even closer to the vehicle. If you absolutely can’t go to the car you’re going to have to get some sort of weapon & figure out your goal — is it to tie the intruder up till some authority comes to get them? Is it to stop ‘em with something to stun them, then leave the house more slowly so you can gather your stuff easier? Or kill then and drag them down into a gulley? The “afterwards” plan will affect what hiding choices you’ll make.
Back to the attic, have you attempted to pull the stairs up behind you….I’m not sure I could do ours alone, but then I’m 50, not 20 or 30. You’ll need a handle to pull them to get them started — are youts built with a side rail you can pull on?
Remember if you’re trying to switch to the “den for the cubs” idea over the safe room, that most dens have an entrance and an ezit!
The real trick is not to make it impossible for any group of bad people to overwhelm your defences, but to make it visibly much harder than the other available targets. Walrus has excellent ideas re layering. Start with visual layers- Longthorned roses or hawthorne hedges or other throny growth is a good start. Once they get through that, have another layer of obstruction. (barbed wire or chain limk fence) Then another close to the house (more roses?) These obstructions combined with accurate rifle fire coming from prepared positions outside the house will discourage all but the most determined looter. See also US government publications on improvised munitions. Look up the fougasse, especially.
These are great comments have certainly caused me to change my mind -something my husband would argue cannot be done (smile). thanks I will rework a plan using passive defense.
To be honest, at this point,reading this (and some other)threads, some of you scare me more than the bird flu. :)
Worried in Wales – at 13:00 it just depends on your neighborhood coheviseness or lack of it…..some of my neighbors across the way would choose a golf club as their weapon of choice — turn another direction & I know they’ve got guns — the trick is keeping them in THEIR house & out of my yard!
But from where I’m sat, it’s the people here, the supposed ‘good guys’ who are talking violence with relish. You all seem to have a ‘weapon of choice’.
Worried in Wales at 13:41-It is best not to be so “civilized” that you are neutered. A little under-the-surface array of atavistic impulses that are kept under control in “normal” times come in damn handy then TSHTF. Otherwise, the bad guys (the ones who don’t control those impulses) will “eat your lunch” and have your kids for breakfast.
Worried in Wales-at 13:00, I am inclined to agree with you.
“You all seem to have a ‘weapon of choice’.”
And you don’t? Have you have given no thoughts whatsoever to your and your family’s personal safety if there is a breakdown of public service? Or are you banking on the idea that people are basically good and that nothing will happen?
If that’s the case, are you willing to bet your family’s lives on that assumption?
I’m not intending to be argumentative. It’s more that I’m genuinely surprised that someone would have a problem with people planning for their safety in the event of public service breakdown. Sure, it might be a bit more gruesome than one might find palatable but it’s been my experience that one should never, ever underestimate another person’s ability to do the unexpected or the horrifying.
From what I understand, a different part of the brain kicks in when you are starving.
Oremus at 15:21-Exactly, and also when you are freezing (prior to hypothermia). I have had to work for extended periods of time outside in near blizzrd conditions. And at one point under those horrible conditions I was surprised to feel a rage well up inside me (for no discernable reason), and I am generally a pretty easy-going guy. I later read that such conditions can trigger atavistic pathways in the brain.
Conditions of extremity will generate extremities of behavior as night follows day.
Just consider road rage, though there people are in a metal vehicle, the larger the more safe they feel. Have seen petite young girls behave like total idiots, as well as adult men. We are all capable of anger that can escalate to pure rage within seconds.
Worried in Wales – at 13:41 But from where I’m sat, it’s the people here, the supposed ‘good guys’ who are talking violence with relish. You all seem to have a ‘weapon of choice’.
Nobody “relishes” violence.
Talk to any soldier or police officer who’s had to use deadly force.
The aftermath is pretty nasty. Physically and psychologically.
That being said. Anybody who does NOT consider the possibility in a catastrophic disaster, and think through their response, is foolish in my book.
Please visit www.birdflusaferoom.com for additional information for safe spaces during any type of infectious disease pandemic or bio chemical event.
Or www.yoursaferoom.com for tornado, hurricane or nuclear attacks.
Or www.alpinesurvival.com. This site lists prices for hexagon shelters.
Just a thought. I’d wish us all good luck but as you all so eloquently articulate it’s all about preparation.
WinW-
All of my close friends are armed to the teeth and skilled with their weapons. (This skill is one of the primary distinguishing characteristics between civilized persons and barbarians. Modern weapons allow mental ability, not physical size to determine the results of lethal action.) If they weren’t armed and skilled, they would not be my close friends. Frankly, I am much more worried about an unarmed acquaintance than an armed one; I always wonder what is wrong with the unarmed person?
There are many other significant differences between those on the Wiki and the bad guys we are (justifiably, I think) worried about, but here is the key issue, in my judgment.
Those we are concerned with, “the bad guys” will have initiated force against us, and that is the key difference. There is a huge moral difference between an aggressor and a defender. I may never start a fight, but I intend to win every one I get pulled into by whatever means required.
Hmmm
and what happens I wonder if any of you ‘good guys’ lose your preps for some reason - be it a fire, theft whatever? I wouldn’t much want to be one of your neighbours because I believe that you would soon become one of those ‘bad guys’ trying to feed a family. It is not just your weapons that worry me, it is your certainty that you are so right and that the rest of the world is just made up of bad people who are out to get you. I don’t believe that everyone is basically good, but neither do I feel the need to own semi-automatic firearms or prepare the means to lace food with arsenic just in case a starving person comes looking for food. To paraphrase darth vader - your lack of empathy is disturbing.
Let us hope that this catastrophizing doesn’t happen. A european who is used to a different response to violence would naturally feel disturbed by what appears to be a relishing of violent response to violence. I feel that way about the constant retaliatory killings in Iraq. I don’t understand the tribal tit for tat killings. They do. Perhaps people in Wales are living in a more peacable society than we here in the states. Frontier justice is not too distant in our past.But we also have the tradition of good neighbors helping others. Just opposite ends of the pole.
diana – at 18:50
You are probably right there diana, we live in different worlds.
I literally cannot conceive of turning away a starving person, let alone trying to harm them.
WinW-
It’s interesting, the contrast in the way we see things. I think that most people are good, and I trust my neighbors. I think they’re nice folks, and if they knocked on the door and asked for help, I’d help them. I’m sure they’d have something to trade for what they needed. If somehow disaster struck and I lost all my preps in all the various places I have them stored due to natural disaster, (which is a LOT of preps in many distinct locations) and I found myself with just what I carry every day, and nothing else, I’d get along, and so would my family. We are self-reliant.
I certainly would not think that my disaster created a moral claim on anyone else, nor would I try to force someone else to help me. I never thought that life was fair or that anyone owed me anything I didn’t bargain for. It is interesting to see how people’s assumptions reveal things about them……
As far as my being prepared to deal violently with potential attackers, about one person in a hundred is willing to initiate force against the innocent under normal conditions. In a pandemic I’d expect that number to increase somewhat, at least at first, although I also expect those disposed to aggression to get weeded out pretty quickly. The fact that I think most people are good doesn’t mean I’m naive enough to think that everyone is good. Some aren’t. We cannot count on the government to protect us; they have neither the ability nor the legal obligation to do so.
Seeking to build or find a safe bolt hole or safe room in your house is actually someone retreating from violence, rather than perpetuating it. Depending on the state you live in, if someone enters your home to steal what you have, you cannot injure or kill them, you retreat. We have home invasions where people terrorize people. Different states have different cultures and the laws vary on how much of response you can make to invasions of your home.A Texan might behave far differently than someone in Massachusets. Someone in the inner city differently than someone in the suburbs. Americans are in general ,helpful and decent people.
ObiwanKenobi – at 19:02
My only assumption would be that people who are willing to kill to keep what is theirs would find it a small step to killing to gain what they would like to be theirs under a situation of need.
I have no expectation of the government protecting us, nor that I would have a moral claim on anyone else - I don’t quite understand where you derive your ‘contrasts’ in our thinking from. The only moral I see is my moral obligation to help another in their hour of need without meeting them with force, violence or poisoned provisions. I think you might find that the true contrast lies there.
One exception. If you can prove your life is in danger, (the person is armed and attacks you) it becomes justifyable in the law courts. Recently a nurse came home to a man with a claw hammer who attacked her. She strangled him. She had to go before a grand jury. It turned out he had a record and may have been hired to kill her by her estranged husband. I never heard the ending of this case. It would have been considered justifyable by the grand jury.A case in Portland Oregon.
diana – at 19:29
Yes, we have ‘reasonable force’ laws here too, that would not include the use of firearms though as it is illegal to keep them for self defence. You can only hold them with a licence for hunting etc. In practice it is seldom considered by the courts to be reasonable force if you kill the intruder.
Worried in Wales - I’m with you. Exercising empathy and compassion does not compromise survival, in my opinion. These are questions that each will answer according to personal values and priorities. I’m a little demoralized by behaviour in MY America, lately. We’ve become quite a rough crowd. I think that we don’t really know each other, we’re all just a little bit anonymous, even in one’s neighborhood and school. People have the most astonishingly abusive behavior in traffic. It’s because they can. No one is REALLY accountable for anything. We all test to see if we can ‘get away’ with something, rather than just doing it right.
Most people have never experienced anything even close to what’s being imagined. Most “civilized” people have never been challenged to keep themselves alive outdoors for 24 hours, alone and without resources, let alone with children for any length of time. People will be very surprised to find strength and nobility where it wasn’t expected. And the opposite, as well.
But we’ve all seen many many Hollywood movies - from Mad Max to nuclear devastation to meteors hitting the planet. I think predicted behaviour is being modeled after fiction.
“Frontier justice is not too distant in our past” - actually, there was a code of honor, respect and courtesy; a gentleman’s word, deals were based on handshakes, charitable kindness, accountability, etc etc…
…and before that - 10,000 years of civility, caring for those unable to care for themselves, and responsibility and contribution to the group, whether you like ‘em or not.
And then again, maybe it will come to pass exactly as imagined and a ‘kill or be killed’ mentality will be necessary.
katherine – at 12:56 So Katherine, now that we’ve turned your thread into a philosophical discussion of violence, I’d like to at least get back to your initial question and find out how you’ve changed your mind — what are you thinking more of doing now than you were, or what are you planning on leaving off?
WinW-
To answer your question- One enormous difference between us is that you see little difference between killing in self defence and killing in aggression. I, on the other hand, see a world of difference between those two acts. Night and day, good and evil, that sort of difference.
In any case, that has little to do with the flu, important as it is. What I am most concerned about is what Katherine is planning to do now. K?
bump for Obiwan Calling Katherine
Here is a link to an idea that would be better than a culvert and probably less expensive; certainly less expensive that many of the pre-fab shelters being sold today. This will take you to a pdf file, look on page 12. I would order one without the ends cut off, use it as the “core” for your shelter. Go to the 2nd site for ideas on how to set it up and for accessories such as blast doors & ventilation systems. Attach blast doors and because of its strength you could bury it just about as deep as you wish.
I’m afraid that the biggest problem we face is whats called specialisation. It’s why western societies are in much more danger from Flu than third world countries where people are used to getting along with their own resources - growing their own food, making their own clothing and shelter - I’ve visited such places myself.
By contrast, we live in a highly specialised society. If I want to eat chicken in New Guinea, I go and catch it, kill it, cook it and eat it. Where I am, the chicken is grown in a factory farm that depends on electricity and stock feed deliveries. It is killed in an abottoir and then cooled, before being carted to a supermarket by a diesel truck where it sits in a refrigerated rack waiting for me to select it, pay for it by credit card, drive home in my car and then cook it in my electric or gas powered oven.
Leaving aside the jokes about chickens, eggs and bird flu, which person is most vulnerable to starving?
Now factor in the fact that most western civilisations operate this way, at least in the cities. Factor in that even the most “rugged outdoor survivalists” have little or no experience of actually doing what they say they can do, some of them live in a fantasy world. For example, the wife of a friend of mine - she gets her nails and hair done once a week, gives great formal dinner parties, but is a total airhead with priorities so far removed from our concerns that she might as well live on the moon. Our cities are full of such people.
Now its all very well debating lethal force and so on. By the way its generally regarded the world over by police and courts that if a bad guy enters a house that is obviously occupied, it is reasonable for the occupants to use deadly force on the basis that the bad guy has plans to deal with said occupants. Its not that way if the burglar thinks the house is empty.
However if supply chains break down and people, and especially their kids get hungry, very different forces come into play.
The rule of law is maintained at the extreme edge by people being more afraid of the police and punishment then the benefits they get by their actions.
The rule of law breaks down when people are afraid of something else more than they are afraid of the police and the courts. That “something else” could be the possibility of their children dieing of flu or starvation in front of them.
Under such circumstances, people in such stress will be quite prepared to kill if they deem it necessary to save their children. As has been said years ago, civilisation is a very thin veneer. A bad pandemic could strip back this veneer. Thats why I don’t think a safe room is a very good idea. If you need it, there is no one coming to rescue you.
Worried in Wales – at 13:41 But from where I’m sat, it’s the people here, the supposed ‘good guys’ who are talking violence with relish. You all seem to have a ‘weapon of choice’.
Worried in Wales, I have never owned a gun before in my life. I am only now coming to grips with owning one now. I don’t think everyone in the world is bad. However, a simple review of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs dictates that when push comes to shove, otherwise good people do things they would never otherwise consider in order to ensure their own basic survival. I would not hold those people accountable for their actions under such duress. Most of the people looting in New Orleans did so to feed their families, and I think that is entirely understandable. Am I a card-carrying member of the NRA? No. Will I be out wilding with my gun in hand terrorizing my community looking for preps? No. Because I am ready. But I will protect my family if we are aggressed against. There is a tremendous difference between offensive and defensive action. Preparing for pandemic has meant learning a whole new range of skills from Dutch oven cooking to shooting a 12-gauge shotgun—which, if I have to, I will use.
a – at 19:53
10,000 years of peaceful coexistence? Do you get the History Channel? National Geographic Channel? Discovery? PBS? People have fought the elements, animals, and each other for survival for as long as we have existed.
so, the question still remains, what is Katherine going to do, and does she still need any advice as to how to proceed?
Her absence would suggest the answer to the latter is ‘no’……
Prior to the LA riots in 1992 I had only carried a “bear gun” for defence when backpacking in Alaska. During the riots, living in West LA, we had 4 large unattended fires burning within 2 miles from us that burned for hours. (my rooftop video still brings on goosebumps). I had never seen so much ash falling and I had been through some big firestorms over the years growing up out there. The FD were scrambling for body armor (having taken shots fired at them) and LE escorts who were stretched thin and waiting for the natl grd to show up. So the fires burned. The gas station on the corner was a violent mob scene. etc, etc. I was seriously concerned for our safty and called a good friend of mine who is LE. I asked him if maybe I could borrow “something” just in case. He told me “if it gets any closer you probably won’t have time to call me”. So we met midway between us on the 405 freeway at Sunset and he handed over a dufflebag containing a Remmington 870, a Colt 1911, 2 boxes of ammo and a vest. God bless friends like that!!!!
Things never got much closer and that duffle stayed under the bed. But within a month I was enrolled in what would be the first of many weapons courses. I had been prepared for every other natural disaster but had never considered the complete absence of law and order. I think you just have to experience it once. It is frightening. I will just say that things are radically different now in that respect. I am prepared.
Like EM said above- it is just another critical survial skill.