My lab is coughing and it makes me wonder how we would know if our pets get bf. I looked around the wiki and saw that dogs can get flu. We don’t have any horses, but there are lots of deer. Even with two labs, the deer graze all over the property and just run away past the invisible fence when the dogs chase them. Here in the Northeast deer could be a significant part of bf transmission. They leave LOTS of droppings.
laura in pa-
you make an excellant point, one I’ve been wondering about myself. we have lots of wildlife around here, turkeys, deer, ducks, ect, and they all manage to find their way into our yard, sometimes all at the same time. The turkeys leave an awful mess in the yard. I think we should be more aware in observation in our wildlife around us in our yards. Some mornings, it looks like a zoo out in our yard when I pull back the cutains. It’s a nice treat.
This is a question I have wondered about.Recently several mentions have been made that a flu pandemic occured in the early 1830`s which was as bad as the 1918 outbreak.When I read these I remembered a booklet the state of Alabama published years ago about deer in this part of the country.It seems that in 1830 a plague of some kind hit the deer herds here and wiped out all but a very few isolated pockets of the animals.It was not until the post World War II restocking programs that the populations recovered.The fact that the deer and human pandemics hit at the same time makes me wonder if they were not due to the same virus.Has anyone ever read anything related to this?
Ummm. Why don’t you take your dog to the vet immediately, if not sooner? It is unlikely it is BF. There is a type of flu that dogs get called the Dog Flu. If left utreated it will kill them. It turns into pnemonia and is horrible. It is not transmissible to humans. It disturbs me that sometimes the people on this forum are so focussed on the BF that that’s all they can seem to see. On another thread a woman’s cat became sick so she locked it in the basment for fear of it being BF. For God’s sake, get a grip people! Not EVERYTHING is bird flu related!
anonymous pet lover - I don’t think that laura in pa was concerned that her lab had BF now. She was wondering how it would present in her dog IF H5N1 was in her area in the future.
anonymous pet lover – at 11:00
WOW, someone woke up on the wrong side of the bed this morning! Reminds me of the joke “sometimes I wake up grumpy, but most of the time I let her sleep”
Bird-dog - at 11:10
I agree
laurie in pa. At this point, I personally wouldn’t ‘put anything past’ H5N1 but to this point, it has not been possible for ruminant animals (those who eat grass with four stomachs) to get H5N1. These animals include: cattle, sheep goats, deer, elk, moose etc.
Omnivores, those with one stomach and also eat grass that is mainly digested in the appendix-caecum, are susceptible to influenza. Those animals would be pigs and horses.
That is at this exact point in time…in also was the case in 1918…although H5N1 is a freak virus and who knows what it will do in the future…remember this is the very first time that infuenza has been identified in cats…so it has already done it once.
Your dog could have a touch of kennel cough and a veterinarian can give you some treatment for it if it gets worse…but all dog owners need to be concerned with this new H3N8 influenza that has jumped from horses…and particularly to make sure that sick dogs do not have too much contact with young children which could allow a jump to humans.
Thanks for the interesting question.
I meant no disrespect, but I am still terribly bothered by the woman who locked her sick cat in the basement…it just spilled over into my comments here. And, thank you Tom DVM for the info about the dog flu. Until now I did not realize it could be transmissible to humans. I had actually been told the opposite. Having read about the people in France abandoning their cats because of BF I have been extremely concerned about how human beings will treat their pets in the event of a pandemic. I obviously have a huge charge about the issue.
Horses and alpacas next door to me. What about alpacas TomDvm? same as horses?
cottontop That’s why I put the etc. after moose in the above post…
…”alpacas” I believe have four stomachs and are ruminants…and therefore at this point, not susceptible to H5N1.
…”the equinestrain is “new” to dogs. Dogs have no natural immunity to H3N8, and no vaccine is available for this virus. Up to 80% of dogs infected are likely to have flu-like illness for a few days, and 5 to 8% of dogs infected with the equine strain may die. Should your veterinarian identify influenza virus in your dog, further testing will be done to determine if it is an equine or avian strain. There is no evidence that either the equine H3N8 or the avian H5N1 strains of influenza can be passed from dogs to humans”…
(No evidence just means no one has done rigorous scientific tests producing Evidence, yet, right? Also means they do not have evidence that it cannot be passed, because they haven’t done the research yet.)
…”DOGS: There is much we do not yet know, so observe these precautions• Keep routine vaccinations up-to-date for all dogs.• Do not allow dogs to eat feces, dead animals, or roll inunidentified substances.• Cook poultry products before feeding to pets (chicken and rice diet).• Do not pick up or adopt stray dogs and take them home. If you really want that animal, take it to your veterinarian first.• Take any ill dog to your veterinarian.”…
anonymous pet lover: I am with you!!! That cat story was horrible and the mass abandonment of pets by owners will be a terrible side-light to any pandemic—or pandemic hysteria if there is no pandemic. Humans do not necessarily serve our animal friends as well as they serve us. PEOPLE: ARE YOU PREPPED FOR YOUR ANIMALS?????
laura in pa: you should take your dog to the vet for many reasons, not the least of which (if he/she is older) is that cancer can metastasize to the lungs. Not to scare you, but there are all kinds of reasons your dog could be coughing which have not been discussed.
Tom,what are some other largely untested species you would watch as possible carriers?I realize this is a highly speculative question but we have had several surprises so far.There is a lot of wildlife out there and no exploratory testing.
Reconscout. Good Question.
In my opinion, the hidden mammalian reservoir species are shore-line mammals that have contact with waterfowl and also with waterfowl faeces. These tend to be usually quite ferocious little animals…mink, fisher, weazel, beaver…the mink, fisher and weazel I believe are carnivorous which means they would probably scavenge dead waterfowl as well as kill them and attack their eggs as well.
That is where I would concentrate serology as well as on bats and pigs…the other historically significant reservoirs of exotic disease.
Tom, Can you eat an animal that has BF? No, I am not writing a sicko cook book, just curious. Hmmmm….Sick Critters You Can Munch. Might make some money! :-)
Hi On the fence…and leaning…some look at the flu wiki swan to indicate when the pandemic starts…I am watching that…and leaning.
As far as your question goes…I hope I don’t have to find out!! /:0)
I do know however that shoreline mammals…beaver and muskrat were eaten in the past.
Tom, very interesting to learn about how different the different types (“one-stomached” vs. “multi-stomached”!) of animals are afflicted. differently by disease.
Reconscout - i understand that tuberculosis can affect deer. it’s actually called bovine tb, but i’m guessing that it could certainly do that kind of damage.
anonymous pet lover- how rude your comment was! when you take your anger out on me, because someone, somewhere else in the world, got you upset it disturbs the peace of the forum. It’s okay, though, I struggle with holding my tongue too! To ease your mind, and to help you regain trust in people, i did not suspect bf and she is not coughing anymore. she is snoring very loudly -this is normal for her!!!- without a care in the world, next to me.
Talking of people abandoning pets, or not being able to care for them because of illness got me to thinking (dangerous .. dangerous ..) a few weeks ago and I have made an appointment for next week to visit our local SPCA to volunteer to help during a pandemic event - depending on what they have planned to do. I will make it clear that I want to maintain a SIP style of existence but even if it means I can have a stock of food or humane medication to distribute as needed within walking distance of my house …
Tom DVM,would you add carnivores who might eat sick birds and carrion eaters(often the same)to the list of possible carriers?These animals come down to the shore to drink and to seek prey which also has to come there to drink.It seems to me that it is also worth thinking about what wild game would put hunters at risk.Ducks and geese are out of the question for someone seeking to augment his food supply during a pandemic.Wild hogs are now our second most popular big game animal but pigs are now known to be carriers.Do you have any more ideas about these questions Tom.
Reconscout. I like to concentrate on interfaces…the small shoreline animals are at the interface between birds and mammals. They are constantly in contact with faeces, carrion and live animals…they are very resourceful and can travel relatively large distances inland.
I think it is a question of degree but I agree with you absolutely on the tertiary contacts between shoreline mammals and other predators and other carnivores that come to the shoreline…
…if I was attempting to isolate the virus and identify the unknown reservoir, the shoreline is where I would be concentrating my efforts as well as on pigs and bats.
Was just reading these threads and seen horses mentioned. Is this a concern I have to worry about now along with everything else. I have 3 horses and the birds are always around them while they are grazing and eatting grain and hay. They get in my barn with my hay too, which I can fix that problem really quick, but around the horses no.
SuzyQWY. Horses are susceptible to influenza…H3N8 jumped recently from horses in Florida to dogs…
…but I don’t think horses are highly susceptible and there has been no mention of horses with H5N1 despite the fact that pigs, dogs, cats and other mammals have been reportedly infected.
Honestly, I don’t think it should be a problem.
It is more likely that humans will be the vector introducing H5N1 into North America…and therefore, we will be more of a threat to horses, dogs and cats…then them to us.
Excellent question by the way…Thanks
Thanks for the observations,Tom.I am curious,however, as to why bats could become a problem.What do they have contact with that could transmit the virus to them?
Reconscout. I have asked the same question. However, lately it seems every time a novel virus emerges, the index species is bats; think SARS and Nipah virus.
Bats also live at the interface between birds and mammals as I believe they are the only flying mammal. Also their highly organized communities put them in very large communities with huge opportunities for viruses to circulate and adapt and mutate. We assume they all live in isolated caves but they are like foxes in that they do adapt to live symbiotically with other animals as well including somewhere in the roof of my house. /:0)
Could mosquitos become a vector?
nope