I think I have convinced my husband to have both the flu and pneumovax. We’ll have to go to Costco, because our dr. won’t get any til late Oct/Nov (and even then is balking at the pneumovax). Anyway, I’m wondering what reactions to the pneumovax you all have experienced and what I should expect. Thanks.
Hi Miss Spieder!
I called the FDA last year and asked if there would be any benefit to getting the pneumovax, in the event of an H5 pandemic. Thye told me yes, so I rushed right out and got them for the entire family. This shot wasn’t painful, at the time of injection. It is a stinker afterwards, but a small price to pay for some added protection, against this deadly beast. #7 and I had some swelling, a rash on our arms, and yes it was quite painful…BUT…Nothing that would have stopped me from getting it again. In fact there are some suggestions, that those that are hige risk, should repeat the shot the following year and this would include ALL of us…Dag-Nab-it!
Actually the worst reaction, I ever had to a vaccine, was the reaction after I received the H5N1 trial vaccine. My arm swelled 4.5 inches around and it was quite sore. The jury is still out, as to whether or not, it has caused more lasting problems. Even still…In a pandemic, with a 50% mortality rate…I would be begging for this vaccine for my chicks….We’ll have to wait and see, what the risk of the virus is, compared to the rick of the best vaccine we can produce…..
I hope you are getting your shots, as well! Drag your husband in, if you have to….
I had both a flu shot and a pneumovax yesterday, one in each arm. A little sore but one aspirin makes it all quite bearable. The nurse said that big reactions were uncommon. I hope they do some good.
I had the pneumovax a few months ago and no reaction, also had tetnus at same time. Male age 50. Smart to have it done now!
Ok, time for me to chime in here…..we both got pneumonia shots and the shot itself didn’t hurt, just like someone else above said.
I think it was 3 hours later, my arm started to ‘hurt’, like sore muscles. Then it started to HURT like someone had hit me with a baseball bat. AND THEN it swelled up. I had pain and swelling in my shoulder, down the back side of my arm, all the way to my elbow.
The swelling was pretty bad, in that if I stood in front of the mirror with both arms by my side, it looked like the top part of my swollen arm was melting over my elbow & would swallow it up soon!
That lasted about 5 days, with the swelling going down gradually. It did affect my hands (and my typing) ever so slightly, but as the upper swelling went down, my hand was back to normal in just a day or so.
I dare say that I had a reaction that was NOT mild, but rather serious, but as it started to get more and more sore, I researched the Net for ‘serious’ reactions and I wasn’t having shortness of breath or ANY of the other things listed as ‘serious’ reactions, so I just waited it out!
I survived.
I had the pneumovax and tetanus both last year in Katrina aftermath (glad I got them in different arms) and had what I consider an ordinary reaction. The area of the pneumovax was swollen and hot and sore - couldn’t lift my arm above shoulder level. But that’s not much worse than the tetanus vax.
It seems like there are too many adverse reactions to this vaccine…the old saying ‘no pain…no gain’ does not apply…something may be wrong with this vaccine.
No reaction at all. Not even painful.
I had a flu shot and a pneumonia shot (one in each arm) on Saturday and am just now feeling better. Both my arms were VERY sore and I had flu-like symptoms, fever, aches, chills, for a couple of days. My lungs still hurt a little, but other than that I am much better. Other family members had the same shots and just had sore arms. My mother had a similar reaction last year to a pneumonia shot, so maybe it’s genetics??
Bottom line - no matter what I said on Sunday when I was miserable;-) I’d still do it again!
Kids and I had the pnuemovax last spring….No pain at time of injection and no soreness or anything after…Kids were the same.I was very nervous to have it from hearing it was bad on the net but it was cake.Now if I can convince myself that flu and tetnus were going to be that easy I would have already done those.
2beans – at 13:18 The area of the pneumovax was swollen and hot and sore - couldn’t lift my arm above shoulder level.
Yep, I had that too — couldn’t really move my arm any direction, but especially anything that made me move my elbow straight out from my side. Sore like a mule kicked it. I wrote up the effects & had my doc put it in my file for future reference.
No problems here either. Tetanus was a different story -that one hurts and continues to hurt for a few days.
If you haven’t had your tetanus vax in ten years (or if you can’t even remember the last time you got it), get it now. You don’t want to be worried about problems from a cut if there is pandemic flu raging.
my mom & I both got both shots yesterday. She has had no reaction….I, on the other hand….am having the same reaction as I’m-working-on-it did ! Plus a fever of about 102+. I’m just mildly miserable today.
Would I do it again ?? YES !
DW got her pneumonia and flu. Flu ok, Pneumonia sore arm for 24 hours and painful to move. Get it in your arem you do not use as much. Worth getting, mainly a nuisance (says the one who did not get the pne. shot. I got it 5 years ago.)
Went to the Health Dept. last Thursday for my flu immunization and Td Booster(tetanus-diphtheria). I absolutly refuse to have side effects I can prevent! Take Tylenol twenty minutes before the injection(s), then as direted per the bottle for the next 48 hours. As always, I had no localized problems. This also works well with infants and children. However, I did get a mild case of the flu. For me, that was a big deal considering I have never had the flu! I’m really glad I got the vaccine. It is said if you get the flu from the vaccine, you would have gotten the flu three times worse! All I can say is that I would have been good for the yard. granulated inseticide, nitrogen, ash ← gina
Tom DVM at 13:23 “…something may be wrong with this vaccine.”
Does that mean that you won’t be getting a pneumovax? As always, I look forward to your “why”.
Hurricane Alley RN - I always take Tylenol, Motrin and/or both before I get any shot. I did this year too, but for whatever reason - it did not help at all - ????
Sorry, also took them for the next few days - it really did not seem to help at all.
Tom DVM - I talked to my pediatricians’ nurse and she said the pneumovax is a live virus and there is always a chance to have a mild case of whatever the immunization is for, if the shot contains a live virus.
My family of 4 all had the pneumovax about 6 months ago, all had only slightly sore arm, tetnus always makes my arm sore for about 4–5 days, but not bad, we all recently (last week) had flu shots, no reactions what so ever. I give alot of these vaccines to people, and see very little adverse reactions to people while they are hospitalized.
Pneumovax is not a live virus vaccine; it is a bacterial polysacharide (?sp) vaccine. I got mine on Monday, along with a tetanus shot…will get the flu shot in a week or so at work. The pneumovax stung a little and only slightly sore the next day or so. The tetanus hurt less going in but arm is still sore today. No other problems, just a little achy all over for a couple of days.
Miss Spider 15:22.
I will attempt to explain myself and as always it is only a personal opinion…I don’t pretend to be an expert.
There are two portions of a vaccine; the antigen itself that interacts with the immune system locally via lymph nodes ect. to produce an immune response and the carrier which should be inert and cause no localized reaction.
Usually, if you get a swollen arm, it is not due to the antigen but rather due to the carrier. I had a very serious reaction to the carrier in a rabies vaccine in 1982 and anon 22 is concerned and has researched this area quite thoroughly including adjuvants that can also cause serious problems.
I think a swollen arm is actually counter-productive to a vaccine because if the immune system is tied up reacting to the foreign carrier then it is not responding to the antigen which is what you get the vaccine for in the first place.
Now, if there was a shred of evidence that influenza vaccine protected a significant porportion of the population, I would be first in line to get it…but the fact is that the current vaccine produced by our antiquated system concieved of in the 1930′s, doesn’t work…well, it is possible that it may protect 5% of the population but I wouldn’t even be sure about that…
…as far as an experimental H5N1 vaccine produced in the panic of a pandemic in a factory that is short-handed because people are sick with H5N1…no thanks, I would rather take that 80% chance with the virus that I can bet it and recover with no after-effects whatsoever.
…and we should keep in mind that we have had three vaccine production failures in the past five years under normal conditions and even at full production they will only be able to produce 200 million doses worldwide…therefore, the politicians will get the experimental vaccine and I and my family won’t because we are not that important enough…to which I can only say Thank God!!
The pneumovax vaccine to protect against bacterial pneumonia on the other hand, as far as I know, is very effective and I would certainly have my family vaccinated with it…I have had too any serious vaccine reactions to take a chance…I am better to take my chances with the bug and hope I have some antibiotics to treat it with…
…So the bottom line is get the pneumovax vaccine and as long as the influenza vaccine goes…if it can’t hurt you then you might want to get it in the hopes that it will provide a little protection against the seasonal influenza…it is highly speculative to state that it will protect against the monster…H5N1.
Hope that helps. Other professionals would likely have the opposite opinion.
Watching in Texas. I don’t know whether pneumovax is a live vaccine or not…maybe JV or one of the other physicians on flu wiki could comment.
I have had some experiences with animals and live vaccines…I am not a big fan.
Tom DVM: Do you discount the recent report (which was in FW) that some protection against H5N1 was conferred by the seasonal flu shots? It sounded doubtful to me, but I am not in a position to judge the validity of the techniques used to reach those conclusions.
This may be a little off topic for this thread but the most effective vaccine that I used was an intranasal vaccine against Infectious Bovine Rhinotracheitis in Cattle…
…when it worked and the intramuscular vaccines for respiratory problems didn’t…I did a little research on the matter.
The fact is that an intramuscular vaccine would work very well if the animal in question is infected by the virus injecting itself into a muscle which only happens with mosquito-borne diseases.
The reason an intra-nasal vaccine works better is because it stimulates the immune system locally in the nose, throat, and lungs through the lymph system into lymph nodes etc…
…it primes the pump so to speak exactly along the route where the infectious agent has to pass to infect the animal.
My father, a physician, was having a problem with intramuscular whooping cough vaccine because it wasn’t working for his patients. What he did was take the vaccine and soak it into a sugar tablet and give the kids the sugar tablet. He claimed the success rate was many multiples of the intramuscular injection…this worked by the same process…it stimulated the local immune system in the nose and throat as well.
I have described the immune system in the past as an f-18 fighter plane stuffed into the trunk of a 1962 Volkswagon bug (our bodies). It is highly sophisticated and we should not assume that the immune response stimulated in a muscle is the same as an immune response stimulated in the lungs…
…in the nuances is the difference between sickness and health…or in the case of H5N1, life and death.
Thanks!!
INFOMASS. My honest opinion is that someone was under a deadline to ‘publish or perish’…and that this is wishful thinking…however, if the data supports the claim then maybe, just maybe we could get off easy…
…but I guess my point would be that if it doesn’t work for the easier to protect against seasonal influenza, how could they make the second claim?
Unfortunately, I have seen more smoke and mirrors on the issue of H5N1 over the past two years then I have seen on any infectious disease in my professional lifetime.
It would be easier for all concerned if they were just honest about things.
It’s all about ‘follow the leader’ and we all know who the leader is.
Tom DVM: I am not an immunologist, but I seem to recall that with mucosal forms of immunity (which produce a predominantly IgA antibody response, as opposed to the predominantly IgM/IgG response produced by intramuscular vaccination) that the memory for the antigen is less robust. This would work well if the pathogen were in the area, but might not work as well for long-term immune recognition. Someone ought to check into whether this is the case.
Your Dad was brilliant in his use of the vaccine in sugar cubes!!! You should put that on the “Pioneer Ingenuity” thread! Your arguments make a strong argument for use of “Flumist” as opposed to an IM injection, although if immune memory is a concern, then either a booster of “Flumist” or a combination of IM vaccination and “Flumist” booster could be the best approach. HOWEVER, such an approach would have to be researched and trials monitored by health care professionals, since re-vaccination in some cases can lead to SERIOUS adverse reactions. Worth pursuing as a possible future treatment protocol for at-risk groups, though!
Many Cats. Yes, that is the way I understand it as well. But my field experience indicated to me that the localized immune response was better in the face of a field challenge and I believe that through the lymph nodes you get IgG as well so there is not a big problem with memory…
…it seems to me that if there was a problem with memory and intranasal vaccines or oral vaccines, they wouldn’t work in the first place.
Is the Flumist a live vaccine…I have an extreme dislike of live vaccines or modified live vaccines…it’s a long story.
Why don’t they take some of their vaccine and shoot it up the nose of their lab animals and we will see if it is effective…they might want to try it orally as well.
In my opinion, they are going to have to come up with another delivery system and probably another vaccine because the present ones just don’t work at all.
By the way, my sincere thanks for all of your help and brain power in helping with my medical condition.
Many Cats. If we naturally become immune to field challenge by viruses up the nose…then there must be memory in the localized immune response.
I think the reverse argument is true…it is the intramuscular vaccine where the memory is not so good!! /:0)
Tom DVM: You are most welcome, although international diagnosis can be a bit of a challenge. :) I doubt the Fluwiki community would forgive your colleagues if we didn’t keep you posting for the duration. :) :) :) You may wish to give our most amazingly knowledgeable go-between some public credit, as well.
Many Cats and Tom. It’s really true. FluMist is a live vaccine.
Tom DVM at 00:11: I concur. Field experience trumps the theoretical everytime and, as we all know, lab animals and tissue culture experiments mimick natural conditions only to a point. The most natural route should be the preferred route for protection (which is why I said your Dad was brilliant). :)
Tom DVM: P.S. I, too, dislike live vaccines. The Titanic was safe, too.
beehiver: Thanks for the info. on FluMist.
Many Cats. He had the data all collected to publish his finding and although I think he did present some of them to the Canadian Medical Association, I am pretty sure he didn’t publish…I saw the results in the kids and adults and it without doubt did work.
And about our mutual friend NS1, I will follow him around until I get a chance to thank him.
Thanks again.
:)
For those that appreciate being informed about vaccinations in general, and flu vaccine in particular, here is a short summary with references about why flu vaccine(s) can have limited effectiveness. It’s been posted in pieces on other threads, and pulled together here in more coherent fashion.
1. The length of effectiveness of the flu shot is not very long. For the elderly, it can be as short as 3 months. So - if your grandma in a nursing or retirement facility gets a flu shot the middle of October, it may be wearing off as soon as the middle of January, which is near the beginning of height of flu season. There is something about the immune system of the elderly that shows a weaker response to flu shots, than other age groups. The response to flu vaccine may also be weak in individuals of other ages with weakened or impaired immune systems.
2. Influenza viruses are notorius for mutating. By the time the WHO & CDC decide on the strains that will be used in the upcoming season of flu vaccine, and the virus grown to sufficient amounts, then manufactured into a vaccine, at least 6 months have passed. By that time, the wild circulating virus can change enough to make a component of the vaccine ineffective, or another virus strain could enter into sirculation.
3. There are many other viruses that can cause respiratory illness in addition to influenza. These conditions are loosely called “influenza-like illnesses” (ILI) by the CDC. It has been stated in a public FDA meeting by Dr. Nancy Cox (the top influenza scientist at the CDC), that at the height of flu season in 2003, only 20% of the respiratory samples sent to the CDC actually contained influenza virus.
(Names of other respiratory viruses that can cause “influenza-like illness” in humans: rhinovirus, respiratory syncytial virus, parainfluenzavirus, metapheumovirus, bocavirus, coronavirus, and adenovirus).
References
items 1 and 2.
http://www.gov.mb.ca/health/flu/factsheet.html
“Protection from the flu begins approximately two weeks following immunization and can last for six months or longer. In the elderly, protection may start to decrease after four months.”
http://www.toronto.ca/health/flu_facts.htm#why
“The influenza virus changes each year, so a different vaccine has to be used each year too. The protection from the vaccine wears off after about six months so people need a new shot every year.”
This page from manufacturer’s information about the Fluzone vaccine, says this:
“In facilities housing older persons (eg, nursing homes), vaccination before October typically should be avoided because antibody levels in such persons can begin to decline within a limited time after vaccination.”
But an earlier version of this company’s document (2002–2003), says “Administering vaccine before October should generally be avoided in facilities such as nursing homes, because antibody levels can begin to decline within a few months after vaccination”.
item 3.
This is a snip from the transcript (pages 52–3) of a public FDA meeting, and brings up the problem of other respiratory viruses in influenza-like illness. Dr. Nancy Cox is the lead influenza scientist at the CDC.
[begin quote]
“MS. FISHER: Dr. Cox, I have two sort of generic questions. This handout that we were given, there’s a statement that says, “Since September 29, WHO and NREVSS laboratories have tested a total of 33,901 specimens for influenza viruses and 1,195, or 3.5 percent, were positive.”
Doesn’t that seem like an awfully low percentage there that were positive for influenza virus? I assume that means that these individuals were sick with other things that looked like the flu.
I guess my question is, in your statistics, when people report flu, how do you know that is actually reflecting flu and not something else?
DR. COX: Right. There’s not a really short answer to this question, but, first of all, I would like to mention that what we had circulated, what had been circulated to the Committee previously, was a week older data than what I talked about today.
What I talked about today is the figures for week six, which is the figures for the week ending February 8th. During that week, which is actually during the influenza season, 20 percent of the respiratory specimens tested were positive for flu. This is what we will expect during the influenza season. The numbers that are in that report reflect all of the respiratory specimens that have been collected since October, when influenza viruses were not circulating.
Now these respiratory specimens are collected from people with respiratory illness, and there are many other pathogens that cause respiratory illness. So we don’t report on those pathogens because this Committee is really focused on influenza.” [end quote]
Thanks, beehiver! Nice to have all this in one place!
Many Cats, you’re very welcome. It seems the dragon that eats the lines to separate the paragraphs was awake last night…I have no idea where they went!
If I were considering a medical treatment to mediate a severe illness, or potentially save my life or that of a family member, I would certainly want to be informed what the procedure was capable of doing, or not doing.
Tom DVM – at 19:06
I think a swollen arm is actually counter-productive to a vaccine because if the immune system is tied up reacting to the foreign carrier then it is not responding to the antigen which is what you get the vaccine for in the first place.
Well, Just Great !…So am I NOT protected from the pnumonia as well as I should be ?? My arm swelled to twice it’s normal size, was red and hot with a skin temp of 104 ! :-(
Madamspinner – at 05:19
Well, Just Great !…So am I NOT protected from the pnumonia as well as I should be ?? My arm swelled to twice it’s normal size, was red and hot with a skin temp of 104 ! :-(
No, it doesn’t mean that. It means you had a stronger local reaction, which bears no relationship to whether the effectiveness of the systemic ie overall immunity. ie you are just as likely to be protected as anyone else taking that vaccine.
My DD and I had pnumonia vaccine on Monday. It did not hurt. On Tuesday we both had a sore arm. She played tennis and I did my usual. Now effects are completly gone. We did not feel sick, no fever. Don’t be afraid. No big deal.
NJ JEEPER
The nurse volunteered that you need the p shot every 5 years. Let me know if you got this post.
15 October 2006 Madamspinner – at 05:19 Well, Just Great !…So am I NOT protected from the pnumonia as well as I should be ?? My arm swelled to twice it’s normal size, was red and hot with a skin temp of 104 ! :-(
Madamspinner, did you find out what was IN the shot you got? I need to find out what was in the one I got & maybe that would explain something about why we had our reaction! I didn’t take my arm temp, but it WAS hot, swollen and sore! Man was it sore! As I said, it was ‘odd’ enough for me to write a note for my doctor to put in my files concerning the reaction.
Got the pnu vax last year - just another shot no reaction. Got the flu vax yesterday - no reaction ..
guess I just a lunk …
Hi everyone. I don’t think all of these local reactions to this vaccine are a good thing but they will have little effect this time and you will most likely have excellent immunity.
However, and I am speaking from personal experience when I almost died from a rabies vaccine in 1982, you should talk to a doctor before you have a booster to this shot…
…the first shot primes your immune system…it will be with the next shot when it will turn it’s substantial weapon systems against you and the end result is not fun!!
I believe these adverse reactions should be brought to the attention of regulatory officials; local health units or the CDC in the United States…
…there is obviously something wrong with the carrier in this vaccine.
anon 22. You are the vaccine carrier expert…what is your opinion?
Advice on pneumovax is so varied. I have been told that it is only good for a few years and then one should get a booster and I have been told that one pneumovax sets you up for life. One of our boys got pneumovax at age eleven (he’s now 17), so I am VERY confused as to whether or not this kid is covered. Any other insights would be appreciated.
TomDVM:
I’ve heard the side effects from the Pneumo shot are worse than most. The comments here second that. I don’t understand why people are taking both at the same time. Me, I would do one take plenty of Vit C, and then go for the other. Their immune systems must be feeling a little pooped. However, I’m not taking these vaccines so my opinion is cheap and free, and shouldn’t be construed as medical advice. Pneumovax states booster every five years but only 3 times in toto (as in lifetime).
Leo 7 Thanks. The reaction produced in days 1–5 cannot be due to the immune system responding to the antigen…it can only be due to the body reacting to the carrier.
As you would know, vaccines are not supposed to do this…there is no reason or need for it…and there is no benefit from this type of localized reaction.
Is the CDC keeping statistics on the adverse reactions to this specific vaccine…
…I wonder if they have records on what has happened to those recieving a booster in 5 years…the immune system has quite a long memory.
TomDVM:
Now Tom, I think the myth of the record keeping has been hashed in other threads. Long term studies on boosters don’t have a snowballs chance in h##l of ever being studied in large groups. When millions take it and you’re offerred studies of a couple of hundred examples it shows no one is interested in knowing the answer. As for the carrier…these companies are cited over and over again for contamination, the fines are paltry, and as long as the demand doesn’t involve insistence on sterility…you will see problems.
I’m very hesitant to get any vaccinations after reading anon_22′s MF 59 Story. Why are we so trusting of big pharma or anyone else involved in these vaccines and just roll up our sleeves and let someone inject God only knows what into our bodies??? No thanks. I’m with you, Tom DVM, guess I’ll just take my chances otherwise.
OKbirdwatcher ¨C at 16:33 I¡¯m very hesitant to get any vaccinations after reading anon_22¡äs MF 59 Story.
I think there is a difference between that story and vaccines in general. Oil-based adjuvants stand out in terms of risk as a class of its own.
The fact that MF59 after all these years still hasn’t gotten FDA approval speaks volumes. The normal regulatory procedures and peer review etc do work most of the time. I won’t repeat the circumstances under which they might break down since these have been discussed thoroughly in that thread.
I can’t say that pneumovax is entirely harmless, but I can say that I have no hesitation taking it myself nor recommending it to most people. There is a world of difference between that and oil adjuvants, IMHO.
FWIW…
I did some research for our physicians last year on the adverse effects of 1. receiving the pneumococcal vaccine and 2. Receiving the pneumococcal vaccine multiple times within the 5 year timeframe.
For #1. The reported adverse effects were mostly local at the site of injection in the form of redness and swelling. The most common systemic reaction was a low grade fever.
Other reported adverse effects included mild rash,itching at the site and sore throat. These studies were in young healthy subjects and other studies in the elderly.
For #2. The adverse reactions were the same, but more severe. Some patients did develop more systemic symptoms, but the number of patients affected were small. Usually these patients received 2 vaccines within a year’s time.
This research was done on the 23 valient pneumococcal vaccine.
FloridaGirl Thanks for the information.
ADVERSE REACTIONS The following adverse experiences have been reported with PNEUMOVAX 23 in clinical trials and/or post-marketing experience: Local reactions at injection site including soreness, warmth, erythema, swelling and induration.I In post-marketing experience, injection site cellulitis-like reactions were reported rarely; between 1989 and 2002, when approximately 43 million doses were distributed, the annual reporting rate was <2/100,000 doses. These cellulitis-like reactions occurred with initial and repeat vaccination at a median onset time of 2 days after vaccine administration and were transient in nature. Compared with primary vaccination, an increased rate of self limited local reactions has been observed with revaccination at 3–5 years following primary vaccination. Fever ≤ 102°F I Other adverse experiences reported in clinical trials and/or in post-marketing experience include: Body as a Whole Cellulitis Asthenia Malaise Fever (> 102°F) Chills Digestive System Nausea Vomiting Hematologic/Lymphatic Lymphadenitis Thrombocytopenia in patients with stabilized idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura33 Hemolytic anemia in patients who have had other hematologic disorders Hypersensitivity Anaphylactoid reactions Serum Sickness Angioneurotic edema Musculoskeletal System Arthralgia Arthritis Myalgia
Also - perhaps the nurse gave a bad shot? The pneumovax can be given subcutaneously or intramuscularly. Could poor injection technique have caused or contributed to these negative reactions? Here is link for Merck pneumovac info. http://tinyurl.com/em6dy
Lisa in Southern Maine.
PNEUMOVAX 23 may be a very safe vaccine and the following statement refers to all vaccines.
Don’t confuse ‘adverse reactions’ with ‘reported adverse reactions’…most reactions are either not identified or not reported.
Thalidamide was a safe drug for pregnant women with morning sickness for extended periods with no adverse reactions as well. It took a long time for the connections to be made…
…and there is no greater supporter of childhood vaccinations etc. then myself.
and from the comments on flu wiki in the past week. Someone should deal with the severe reactions at injection sites for this vaccine…in my opinion, there are too many problems here to be explained by poor vaccination technique.
Lisa. Thanks for your clear and concise post at 20:23 and 20:28.
I got a flu shot and pneumovax last year and my arm hurt for 3 days, so much that typing was painful. This year, my 2 kids got pneumovax alone (out of flu shots) and both of their arms hurt 2 days with much loud complaining. They said pain relievers didn’t really help.
Like I told my DD when she complained about a sore arm the next day….pneumonia hurts a whole lot more than this… Really, the soreness lasted a lot longer from the tetness shot we got in august than the p shot we got on monday.
You should not have sore arms for more than a few hours from any vaccination…if the reaction occurs in 2 in 100,000 people like is stated above then there is no issue…but that is never the case.
In our very small sample size on flu wiki it appears that more than 50% of the people recieving the vaccine this fall are either getting very sore arms for several days or systemic reactions with increased temperatures or both…
…as we can observe these reactions are not being reported to doctors or the CDC.
Either this vaccine has been causing local reactions and some systemic reactions for some time or there is a particular problem with the carrier in the vaccine production this year.
This problem does not come without future consequences when for example other vaccines with similar carriers are given…and the potential for future reactions could last a lifetime.
…there is no need for undue alarm…this is not the first vaccine or first lot of vaccine that this has happened with…
…but this situation should be investigated immediately by the company in question and by concurrently an independent third party if one exists in today’s regulatory environment.
Tom DVM wrote: …the first shot primes your immune system…it will be with the next shot when it will turn it’s substantial weapon systems against you and the end result is not fun!!
My 78yo mother-in-law is currently in the ICU as a result of receiving the pneumovax & influenza vaccines 12 days ago. She has received flu shots annually, and had her last pneumonia shot 10 years ago.
She had localized pain & swelling on days 2–3 and was feeling better by days 4–5 (days after receiving injections). By day 6 howver, she had a large swelling at the injection site, with a black center about the size of a nickel. We went to the doctor, who couldn’t decide if it was a local infection (so prescribed antibiotics) or a reaction to the shots (so suggested benadryl). By the next morning (day 7) the inflamation was much worse, so we went to the emergency room. ER doctor believed it was a staph infection — says he only sees this in IV drug users. Gave her vancomycin (in case it was MRSA) and cleaned out the abcess under local anaethesia. Her white blood cell count was 19 (thousand?). Day 8 she’s feelng better (in hospital surgical recovery ward), WBC is down to 11, still on vancomycin. All cultures of the material taken from the abcess & of her blood come back negative.
By Day 9 the wound area is about the same, but her WBC is back up to 19, she’s running a fever & becomes incoherent. They decide to go back in to the wound area to see if there is something they missed. Surgery on day 10; during recovery, her blood pressure drops extremely low. WBC is up to 50+. She enters the ICU & is on meds to raise her blood pressure. Day 11 — the surgeon & ICU doctor suspect she had an auto-immune reaction. ICU doctor discusses cytokine storms (is surprised that I’m familiar with the term, and am familiar with steriods & lipitor being used to supress the immune response — thank you fluwiki). She is put on steroids.
Today (day 12) she’s sitting up in a chair, WBC is down, she’s feeling great. Of course, she’s still going to be in the hospital for a while because she now needs a skin graft on her arm.
A year ago she had necrotizing fasciitis (spelling? it’s the flesh-eating bacteria); after surgeries to remove the infection, she had 2–3 weeks of extremely high WBCs & fevers. The doctors now think it might have been a similar auto-immune reaction. So her reaction to the immunizations was certainly atypical but was life-threatening.
Geesh, AlohaOR…I was feeling very sorry for myself until I read YOUR post…
I had pneumovax this past spring. About 45 minutes after having it one evening, I had numbness and tingling in my forearm. The needle my doctor used was very fine and very short, I didn’t even feel it. So I went to bed. I could hardly sleep from the discomfort. The next day, my left hand was completely numb and I realised that I had compartment syndrome. The injection site had a 2 inch weal, and then there was a white ring around that, and then a HUGE red ring going up to my neck, my scapular muscles and chest muscles were all swollen and hot. Needless to say, I couldn’t move my arm at all, ran a fever of 101 F. It took about 4 days for all effects to fade. My hand was numb for about 24 hours. Doctor said later that usually there were “no side effects” and I should have come in, she “would have liked to have seen that”.
So you think it is the phenol carrier that is the problem, Tom DVM? What else uses phenol, so I know what to avoid in the future?
Geesh, AlohaOR…I was feeling very sorry for myself until I read YOUR post…
I had pneumovax this past spring. About 45 minutes after having it one evening, I had numbness and tingling in my forearm. The needle my doctor used was very fine and very short, I didn’t even feel it. So I went to bed. I could hardly sleep from the discomfort. The next day, my left hand was completely numb and I realised that I had compartment syndrome. The injection site had a 2 inch weal, and then there was a white ring around that, and then a HUGE red ring going up to my neck, my scapular muscles and chest muscles were all swollen and hot. Needless to say, I couldn’t move my arm at all, ran a fever of 101 F. It took about 4 days for all effects to fade. My hand was numb for about 24 hours. Doctor said later that usually there were “no side effects” and I should have come in, she “would have liked to have seen that”.
So you think it is the phenol carrier that is the problem, Tom DVM? What else uses phenol, so I know what to avoid in the future?
Jody and alohaOR:
I’m guessing what happened wasn’t reported to the Vavers line for vaccine side effects? Or do you even know?
2 weeks ago husband had his pneumovax and had a reaction. The next day his entire upper arm from the elbow to shoulder, his pec muscles and whichever ones wrap around the side into your back and were all inflamed and he couldn’t even lift his arm. Went back to the doc- the lymphnodes were swollen too. They put him on motrin for the inflamation and sent him home to “watch” if it got any worse to come back in. By the next day he was fine, just a bit sore in the upper arm. I had mine this past Saturday morning- same doc. No problem- just sore like a tetnus shot. I’ll get my Flu shot for the 1st time in Nov at work. I never get sick- everyone around me gets all sorts of stuff and I never catch it- till last year. I got the flu last year (from husband- who developed pneumonia from it) for the 1st time since I was in my mid 20s. Was I ever sick. 20 years takes alot of the bounce out of your “bounce back” ability. So I’m getting my shot this year.
You guys are scaring me! My daughter and I are scheduled for our flu shots tomorrow—plus the pneumovax for me, as well. We’re both considered high-risk (cardiac disease for both of us, plus asthma since birth for me) and with the severe problems my asthma causes anytime I get ill, I can’t imagine not getting the shots. But now I’m scared, too.
You guys are scaring me! My daughter and I are scheduled for our flu shots tomorrow—plus the pneumovax for me, as well. We’re both considered high-risk (cardiac disease for both of us, plus asthma since birth for me) and with the severe problems my asthma causes anytime I get ill, I can’t imagine not getting the shots. But now I’m scared, too.
Genoa - I’m cardiac risk too, which is why I got pneumovax this year. Other than sore arm all went well and I’m glad I did it as I can handle sore arm but I don’t think my heart could handle pneumonia.
I have to agree with Genoa, Lisa. Yeah, it hurt like a bugger, but it is still temporary, and a better option than pneumonia. I’m just glad to hear that I’m not such a weirdo. Other people have this, too. So there must be more reactions to the shot than my doc let on.
And no, Leo7 at 14:51, I don’t think anything got reported in my case. I have to stop toughing things out, and go back and complain more! I tried taking motrin at home, it did relieve the fever. I wasn’t convinced it did much for the inflammation in my arm…but maybe something.
Leo wrote: I’m guessing what happened wasn’t reported to the Vavers line for vaccine side effects? Or do you even know?
My m-i-l suggested reporting the reaction when she went to see her primary care doctor on day ; the doctor immediately dismissed the suggestion. My m-i-l planned to report it herself — she was given an information/disclosure sheet (with the phone number) when she got the immunizations. I’ll check with the hospital tomorrow to see if they have reported it; if not, I’ll do it myself. By the way, the steroids seem to be working wonders, as her white blood count is coming down, all vital signs are improving & she’s out of the ICU.
My advice: Don’t get the flu shot & pneumovax at the same time. If you have a reaction, it would be nice to be able to identify what you’re reacting to.
AlohaOR:
Thanks for doing the follow through on reporting. They take the info and they will use standards based on info given, to determine if its vaccine related (the docs know this and I am apalled they are leaving it to the patient and family). Anyway, you have first person point of view why so many people distrust the info on vaccines. It seems so simple to me—report every side effect and let the protocols weed out non vaccine complications and then publish the results say every two years or four years. The reluctance to do so is short sighted. They prefer to make state rules on going to school and vaccines, which will make more people opt out of public schools so you’re back to square one. Again thanks for trying to do the right thing.
I have never had a flu shot. Maybe I’m being paranoid, but does anyone realy know what’s in these shots before they are given? What is in place in order to prevent some “test” compound from being included in these shots to monitor reactions? And, how can anyone know what the long-term effects might be since these shots haven’t been around long enough? It is “un-natural” to force viruses into one’s system. I’m always skeptical about things like this.
I’ve had a flu shot for five of the last six years. (one year the flu shot was in short supply). I have not had any flu whatsoever. I am scheduled for the pneumovax this week and am getting a little nervous because of above posts — but will get flu shot in November and am not at all worried about that.
Some vaccines are more problematic than others. I’m old enough to remember kids getting polio and there’s no way I’d skip polio vaccine for my kids. Anyway, the flu vaccine doesn’t worry me.
FYI:
my wife and 2 toddler sons and i all got kaiser’s vax on saturday. we were all partying into the night….
i didnt even have my occasional—5 times in 15 years of flu shots—vasovagal syncope like last year. truly mystifying—i only pass out for flu shots not the many other shots ive had, blood drawn, etc…
havent had the flu in 15 years…
we also all had the pneumovax with no problems whatsoever.
Got the pneumovax in the left arm this last week and tetanus booster in the right. The nurse said to expect soreness with the tetanus but she hadn’t heard any complaints about the pneumovax. BOTH arms hurt for a couple of days. Not awful, but knew it was there. Whew. I’m going to try to get pneumovax for the kid who hasn’t had it and feel better about the shot now. It caused soreness but it was definately little league level.