Interspersed in various threads I’ve seen advice regarding long term infrastucture failure. Is anyone considering long-haul preps in the event things don’t ‘get back to normal’ for awhile? Please discuss. I live near considerable freshwater source(s), but many do not. A city dweller, I garden, but my small lot has been commandeered for fruit trees and berries - nothing but squash and beans can successfully compete for sunlight anymore. I have applied container gardens in ‘grow-bags’ which can be moved around if necessary (however, in my case, there just isn’t anywhere to GROW anymore:) Fresh meat seems an impossible goal - although ensuring fishing supplies are up to snuff is right up there as far as preps go. Have also considered rabbits; a livestock which can be successfully farmed in a small space (squab also, but given the AF threat, will stick to rabbits for the time being) Urbanites like myself will benefit greatly from the wisdom from country folks in how to adapt our postagestamp size areas should the need arise. Like Monotreme, I am greatly concerned about the urban populace, but there is much we can do - provided we have the skills. Your input is appreciated.
Rabbits are excellent for small acreages but there’s a lot of difference from breed to breed, including temperament. My sister (who has done 4H rabbits for years) breeds a cross-bred satin that is very easy to skin - it just peels off, pretty much in one piece. When cleaned and processed, one rabbit in stewing brine fits nicely in a half-gallon canning jar.
Housing for rabbits is fairly specialized too, from size of wire openings in the cages, to hot weather air circulation, to cost of feed, disposal of manure, etc. Dont just hop into the project. This one requires some real research. Talk to your county 4H coordinator or extension specialist (usually from your state agricultural university) for advice and contacts.
Thanks, Saddletramp. Will do. (good tip about the Satins)
Just a note about our recent City Newsletter — along with the Bird Flu and West Nile information, they have some notices about the following:
Help Clean Fremont’s Local waterways - Mark your Calendar for Coastal Cleanup Day — with info on where to go to volunteer — “Caring for local waterways provides a healthier ecosystem and improves water gaulity for wildlife and their habitats” might also pertain to better water for humans, if necessary --- Also notice about “Stivers Lagoon Field trips for Third Graders” with info about our local Clean Water Education Program”
There’s another notice “Bay Friendly Gardening Workshops” for “sustainable, healthy and beautiful gardens” offers design, building healthy soil, managing pests naturally, plant selection, and creating a year-round edible garden, also a 70 page guide Bay Friendly gardening.
Finally, there’s more info on where to go to recycle batteries, tubes, bulbs, and electronics out of the garbage.
All in all, there is some progress!!
27 August 2006
I don’t know the cost, but you could check fish hatcheries about stocking your local fresh water sources.
Heddie in CA, 20+ years growing organically. Unfortunately, my waterways do not reflect that committment.
I’m about 95% vegetarian anyway, so I won’t be any help with the meat question, but as far as fresh vegetables go, I’ve stocked up on seeds for sprouting. This might already be obvious to you. They’re very nutritious, high in vitamins. They don’t take up much room in your cupboard as prep items. You can sprout them year-round. They do need a little warmth to sprout and they need to be rinsed a couple times a day with clean water, but that’s about all they need.
Oremus - they do! But mostly for local recreational fishing - if you don’t mind spending hours to catch a dressed 4 oz-er, you’re good to go! Anything above a pound in local lakes, better slice off ALL extraneous flesh - mercury. Even then, a risk. But I’ll take mercury (short term) over starving. Thanks for the info.
Beyond 12 weeks there is no hope for successfully coping with infrastructure failure unless someone or some group establishes “law and order’ in your area. Otherwise all of your gardening efforts, orchard endeavors, and animal husbandry ventures are for naught. After a High CFR/First Wave Winnowing you (Wolf) need to immediately accomodate yourself with the local “wolfpack”, make it worthwhile for them to take you in and dangerous (and a no-win) for them not to. (This strategy assumes that “law and order” is absent). Unless they are hard-core criminals you can probably strike a deal if you have enough skills and stuff. But you have to get your “pitch” ready to go, to make your case in a compelling manner from the relative safety of your home. Your only intermediate hope after the Grid Goes Down is a security zone in which like-minded people can safely pursue those activities that shelter, clothe, and feed the community.
Oh, and if there is no “wolfpack” in your area, it is incumbent upon you to form one.
Hi, Milo Have sprouting seeds in the crisper now. I like radishes (don’t think the nutrition’s that great, tho) Really will consider serious sprouts. I actually am not much of a meat-eater in any event, but keeping options open.
Wolf —
My husband and I have been gardening on and off for 30 years or so — two of the best small space vegetable gardening books are ‘The Square Foot Garden’ and another one on “The French Intensive Gardening Method” (hard to find but sometimes in used book stores/web sites) that gives very high yields on very small spaces. Trellises and supports, and ‘espaliered’ fruit trees, either free standinging or along fences, also use smaller spaces to advantage. You can make vertical squash gardens using wood trellis supports and little hammocks or slings for the squash or pumpkins out of netting or knit materials. French intensive gardening lists plants that, grown closely together, enhance production of each other. French Intensive also includes information on natural soil amendments, like bone meal, wood ash, cured manure, peat moss, and compost that allow you to keep using the same soil over and over with high yields. Might help with your potted/grow bagged plants. Also, look into pre-season starts of plants in cold frames, or indoors, to get a head start; likewise, ways to keep plants alive after first freeze to extend harvest.
Window box gardening is possible, also. Parsley, chives, thyme and oregano are great additions of fresh greens to your diet.
I have been trying to grow a hanging wire basket of peat moss and potting mix into a ‘lettuce ball,’ but having mixed success. There was a beautiful one demonstrated in Sunset Magazine, but I lost the copy and must be doing something wrong with the potting mix as I have only gotten a few plants to survive transplant into the ball. You are supposed to be able to grow several varieties of cool weather lettuce and clip off only those you need from day to day as they continue to mature.
Oh, sprouts!!
I’ve done well with mung bean sprouts (the kind you get in Chinese Food, available at Chinese grocery stores)
Best way I have sprouted them is to put them into cut down plastic milk jugs with a few holes punched around the sides in the bottom for drainage, and keep them in the dark — in the dishwasher, between loads, where it is dark and can be damp and warm after a load of dishes.
Of course, if power is off, it will only be dark and damp. But its a handy close by good place to sprout lots of things.
Barley seed also makes a nice green sprout
Medical Maven Thank you. Guess I needed a bit of reinforcement on that. Feel the same way. Years ago I had some schmuck shoot my storm door out with a pellet gun. Was able to (somewhat) mark the trajectory. Next weekend while said trajectory-area was partying in the backyard, I cleaned my shotgun on the porch. Not long after that I dropped by and shared my corn, tomatoes and etc. Never again had a problem with ‘em. It’s a new crowd out there now, tho. I’ve been here more than 20 years. Scary bunch.
Ordinary lentils sprout pretty well too. Radish and broccoli sprouts are the best. I’ve never tried barley or wheat, but I’m planning to experiment with it.
Me too, Milo. Heddie - Have little grow-bags for greens - but once the heat sets in, fuggediboutit. Great in spring and fall tho. Familiar with both French intensive and Square Foot - have sacrified the sunlight required for fruit growing, however. Amazing response. Do hope that this thread inspires those who feel it’s hopeless in an apartment or smallspace. Even tossing in a bit of homegrown chard and chives into some ramen noodles is a spirit lifter as well as adding some much needed nutrition!
Escargot, anyone?
Possible protein source — local snails! Some time back Sunset Magazine ran an article about using your garden snails as food. Apparently, the snails rampant in California were introduced in the late 1800′s by a fellow from France who brought them over, thinking they would be a great delicacy here. They never caught on as food. However, they are all over, major pests.
Anyhow, it was suggested to find them in your pesticide free garden; put them in a little ‘snail corral’ and enclosure of some sort, like a large coffee can with holes in the top; put in some corn meal for them to eat, with a little water dish. After several days, they should be pretty much purged of anything bad, and a little bigger and fatter. Put them in a new clean enclosure for a while, till they empty themselves completely. Then they are ready to cook.
I don’t recall how they were cooked, except that it involved boiling water, butter, garlic and salt.
I have never tried it, as my neighbor uses ‘deadline’ and snail bait, and I would hate to find out that some have ‘come over’ after snacking at the neighbors.
Thanks, all. And please keep in mind those of us of minimal means. Not a situation of which generator to buy, or how to build a solar power system. I see too few posts from those who are just plain broke. We deserve a chance, too. You never know, we might be able to help YOU one day.
Wolf – at 13:41 - There’s a thread devoted to Guinea pigs as food, vs. rabbits, on Curevents Eat Guinea Pigs. They also discuss fish (trout) so for proteins, you might have a fish tank with trouts. If you eat one a week, for 12 weeks is 12 trouts per person. And you can crowd them like they do in restaurants, so not much room would be needed, just water and an oxygen pump (could be run on batteries). There’s a suggestion that you may not have enough fat in the trout for nutrition purposes (same for rabbit), but you can always cook it in oil. It probably would turn out less expensive to keep trout than guinea pigs, however you might have potential problems with illnesses or reproduction with fish, that you’re unlikely to have with guinea-pigs. In France, during WWII, my Dad ate mice, that he caught, not bred. Nowadays, you probably would be better off breeding them than catching potential BF vectors. In 1870, during the siege of Paris, they ate rats.
Come to think of it, you could have hamsters - have them run all night long in their play wheels to recharge the batteries of the fish oxygen pump :-D
heddiecalifornia – at 15:08 - escargots (snails). You won’t have me eat those, yuk!
Frenchiegirl: Seriously considered the South American alternative to rabbit! As I recall from earlier readings on the subject, no cages were even necessary in ‘the old days’ (although in my house with my killer cats it would be a must) A friend had a couple as pets and it got out of hand in rather short order. Thanks for the link!
Wolf – at 15:32 I see too few posts from those who are just plain broke. We deserve a chance, too. You never know, we might be able to help YOU one day. At one point, before I knew all I do now on food “procurement”, I was so poor and hungry I made soup with lawn grass and just a little flour. It tasted awful but I am still alive and now contributing on FW :-)
Wolf – at 15:32 I see too few posts from those who are just plain broke. We deserve a chance, too. You never know, we might be able to help YOU one day.
Frenchiegirl: And so you have:)
Frenchiegirl:
Hey! I thought that escargot was a French delicacy. Well, you aren’t really missing much — I had them once a very long time ago, when I was young and beautiful and boyfriends took me to famously expensive restaurants --- as I recall they were kind of chewy like little warm rubber pencil erasures, coated with a most delicious butter and garlic sauce.
However, I like pickled herring better. Also Sonoma Garlic stuffed green olives.
Wolf: Go for the rabbits if you need meat. The Julia Child books had a receipe for them that was supposed to be quite good. A Portuguese woman that has lived many years on my mother’s street raised rabbits for food for her large family of boys. They are very quiet, but you have to keep them cool, and dogs will try to get at them.
I ordered more canned meat today. How do you kill animals humanly? I’m a city girl.
Oh, sprouts, my favorite topic. They are super easy to grow, cheap and nutritious. And Wolf, you do not have to keep your seeds in the crisper, any cool place will do.
Tons of information on this site: http://www.sproutpeople.com
I am in Canada and order my sprouts here: http://www.sprouting.com - my favorites are Ancient Eastern Blend, Crunchy Bean Mix, Sandwich Booster and Broccoli Brassica Blend.
Heddiecalifornia: Not only dogs go after rabbits, but screw worms and rats, in particular. The caging and housing of rabbits is a really BIG deal because the rats will get under the cages and eat the legs off the babies or just chomp the whole thing till it gets dragged through the wires. Nasty, nasty. And keeping rats under control is a full time job. To have enough meat rabbits to feed a family of four, you probably need around six or eight does and at least one buck. That’s a lot of spilled feed and rabbit droppings.
Speaking of droppings…you do know that rabbits chew their cud, dont you? Every few poop pellets one is produced that isnt completely digested, so the rabbit snarfs it up and eats it again.
Screw worms are the larvae of a certain type of fly. It lands on the rabbit, lays an egg which hatches out into a magget which then burrows into the rabbit’s skin. They look like black blisters - until you poke them and they move! I’ve managed to pull them out with a tweaser, but that isnt always successful. Alcohol works sometimes, too, but it hurts so the rabbit doesnt like it much. For a horse or cow, you take a soft drink bottle, put the open end over the worm hole and hit the bottom of the bottle HARD with the flat of your hand. That usually pops the screw worm out, sort of like popping a zit.
City girl: How you kill and butcher a meat animal depends on the animal - mostly how big it is and how big you are in relation to it. For rabbits, probably the most common way I’ve seen it done is to hold it upside down by its hind legs and hit it in the head with a piece of rebar or some other club-like thing. One good crack and they are generally dead, but your aim has to be straight and true. If they wiggle, it’s easy to miss. You dont want to have to go around smacking them again and again. (For the really squeemish, you can always shoot them in the head with a small calibre gun, but most folks think that’s too expensive and a waste of bullets.)
Then they are hung upside on a board with nails through their hind legs, gutted and the heads cut off. Then the feet, then they’re skinned and cut up. I think it’s easier to cut them up after skinning if the carcass is a little bit frozen.
It’s all pretty bloody and unless you have the right breed for butchering, the skins can be very hard to remove. Not for the faint of heart.
I’ve raised rabbits, butchered and skinned them, and hated every minute of it. Even taking care of rabbits is a smelly, yucky, bending-over-so-your- back-always-hurts kind of job. And the bucks can be very mean (one good kick and they can lay your arm or belly open with the claws on their hind legs), and some of the does even cannibalize their young.
I much prefer to get them nicely cooked, in jars, from my sister.
If you want to know how larger animals are butchered, let me know. Been there. Done that, too. And probably good stuff to know.
This is a charming thread, absolutely charming . . . .
(running for the hills at the thought of eating guinea pigs . . . .)
I cannot wait to go to bed and dream about SCREW WORMS????? (bawk!)
heddiecalifornia – at 22:31 --- Escargot! A delicacy I could eat over and over. But only because I LOVE garlic and butter!!
Wolf – at 15:32 I see too few posts from those who are just plain broke. We deserve a chance, too. You never know, we might be able to help YOU one day
Go to the page about rice and beans. Rice is sold at Sam’s club for about $5.00 per 25 pound bag. At one cup of rice per person, that will give you about 108 servings. Add a little bit of beans and you have a filling meal. Boring but it is food. Rice frozen and then sealed in storage bags with O2 absorbors or vacume sealed will last for up 5 years with no problem. Use that as your base and then add to it. Pasta, (which is also cheap) can also be put up in the same way and last about the same time. A meat sauce in a jar can be added to give a better taste. Now you have two cheap base meals. Any dried soup mix is also quit cheap and would be a break from the rice and beans, Thats three, now add some Ramon into the mix About $5.00 for a case of 48 and now you have a real mix of things. Being real carfull you could set up 2 people for at least a month for under $50.00. It would mean you would have to shop smart and keep the rice as the main stay, but it can be done.
Best of luck to you wolf.
Ange D – at 23:51 --- Wait ‘til you hear about deep fried grasshoppers and June Bug soup!! lol!! ;-)
Regarding snails, forty years ago I used to collect perriwinkles along the shore(Me.), rinse them off a bit with salt water, steam them for a few minutes in salt water, then eat them with or without butter. Tasty! Of course I also dug for and ate raw or steamed clams, and had a couple of lobster traps. Thank goodness I can resort to the ocean when I have a craving for fresh protein if/when…
TCat - thanks for the links/info on sprouts! Sprouts are even good on peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches.
heddiecalifornia – at 22:31 “They are very quiet…” But they all, esp. rabbits, scream and scream when hurt! No thanks. ;-)
Wolf: you can get the O2 absorbers from www.honeyvillegrain.com - 100 for about $5.00 with about $5 for shipping. It takes one for a #10 can (like a large coffee can) or 4 for a 2-gallon paint can size.
BB at 23:56---now I ask you . . . could you eat some little kid’s GUINEA PIG???????? Or Thumper?????
But, I tell you plain, dear BB, those Screw Worms got real visual and sensory on this thread and I think I will declare that the summer is over with and it’s about time to trudge on down the old prep path to freedom from which creepy crawly to eat. I see beans in our future here. Lots of beans with no little quizzical hamster faces on them.
Get thee back to closing threads and off the subject of fried grasshoppers.
Whoa! Screaming rabbits . . . .
Bird-dog: you’re right about the rabbits. They do scream and not just when they are hurt. They scream when they are frightened and when they fight each other (if the doe isnt interested in the buck, she will try to beat the crap out of him).
I’d forgotten about the screaming….
By now, Im sure everyone is rushing out to buy breeder bunnies. <g>
Luckily I’m hiking distance to the Pacific ocean, and I’ve got the dreaded gill net in storage ready to use if/when sport fishing regulations are a thing of the past.
I doubt I will want for protein, although I will look pretty funny in a full respirator and bunny suit fishing.
I’ve got enough food storage (mostly freeze dry) for the entire family to be locked-down self-sufficient for 18 months.
I can’t tell you what a great feeling that is.
Most of the long-term survival worries were covered pre Y2K rollover.
Try searching google or the way-back machine for archives of those very interesting Usenet discussions.
Most of this discussion parallels those.
It really ALL depends on the power grid staying up and functional.
Electricity is the absolute KEY to our current level of civilization.
Wolf - Of course the rice and beans combo is a complete protein when mixed, but, you can also mix different kinds of pasta with beans for a complete protein. The Italians have a famous dish called ‘pasta figioli’ or something like that and it is simply beans and pasta and boy it is delish…and CHEAP. I also eat black beans mixed with salsa or taco sauce and its a meal. Sometimes I mix with cottage cheese and it is good. Don’t forget hummus. If you make it yourself it cost about 75 cents to make and it is better than store bought AND it is good for you.
Ange D – at 00:08 --- :-) Consideriing my frustration level today at trying to sell my house, and listening to 7 large-breed dogs right next door bark all day long…..yep! I could… (3 St. Bernards, 2 Neopolitan Mastiffs, and two Great Danes…oh, and one ankle-biter Pomeranian)…
BB goes back to his kitchen, looking for more threads to eat…er, close…
BirdGuano - I am within spitting distance to the Atlantic Ocean and I too am planning on digging clams, oysters and harvesting mussels. The problem with that is, you can’t eat it all the time because it will give even the locals, who eat from the sea regularly, diarrhea. Fishing isn’t always easy, it depends on what is running, blue fish and bass can be caught right from the shore but that is only certain times during the year. Mainly, you have to go out in open ocean to catch anything on any given day. Maybe we could get some lobster traps and put them in the bay where it isn’t so scary. I think I have been watching the “Deadliest Catch” for too long!
I have spent the weekend ordering more of everything because I think we are going to SIP longer and it is looking like we can’t count on anything being normal after each wave, or for quite a while. I never prepped for Y2K, so I have started at square one. We are going to buy a big, “quiet” generator tomorrow and a woodburning stove insert in our fireplace. We lost electricity for a few days last winter and we burned a tremendous amount of wood, very inefficent. I have bought every otc med I can think that we might need for an extended length of time.
My eyes are crossing and I don’t know why I am not in bed, so it is off to bed for me….
Speaking of stocking meds, one suggestion I was given (if you can believe it) from my nurse practitioner was that it might be easier to obtain antibiotics for farm animals than humans (no prescription required here in MO anyway). I’d love some professional input ref the dosage if this is feasible. My sister has treated (I mean injected) her farm animals for years herself (upon the instruction of the local vet as needed) and has animal rescue experience as well, so that is a help in administration if we had the appropriate dosage conversion and it is applicable.
Do you think they’ll believe I have a diabetic cow?
Bronco Bill – at 23:56 - When I was little, my grandma in Madagascar used to send us sweets containing grasshoppers. You can also cook them as a savoury brochette.
Oremus – at 02:34 - If US vet pharmacies carry insulin, why not? I used to give insulin shots to my dog.
I think I’ll skip thumper and by more meat. I prefer already packaged meat.
wolf - in addition to rice, beans, pasta, dried soup mixes (and a few other very good ideas that I now forget,but they are posted above), don’t forget cheap staples like oatmeal, or if you don’t like oats, check out the bagged cereals. They are generally cheaper than the boxed cereals. Also, check your local stores for sales on canned veggies and fruit - these last a long time and I have found some veggies - 4 cans for $1 and fruit 2 cans for $1. I don’t know where you are located, but here we have Walgreens and they have packages of little sandwich cookies for $1. 6 cookies to a pack and 8 packs to a package for $1 goes a long way. They also have a wafer type cookie - again a pack for $1. I have also found packages of peanut butter crackers, a large variety pack with cheese crackers, regular crackers, wheat crackers, etc., and it was really cheap. Dry cereal or oatmeal for breakfast, a can of fruit or applesauce, with peanut butter crackers, makes a good (and cheap) lunch, and then that rice and beans for dinner won’t be so bad. And, hey, you’re not alone - many of us are trying to prepare with limited funds!
SaddleTramp – at 14:09 (concerning raising rabbits) Dont just hop into the project. This one requires some real research.
Funny one!
Rabbit screams…..one of the books on the Oprah read list one year was “When Rabbit Howls” about a little girl who was so badly abused by her father, that she split into several different personalities. She described hearing the rabbits screaming as they were killed and related her physical pain to it — it chilled me to the bone just reading about it.
I think it’ll be easier to go vegetarian & raise beans for protein…..maybe for those of us who have literally run out of ground space for gardening, whether in the ground or in boxes or planters or whatever, can use some of the roof space on our houses for some shallow plantings that we can water often!
I have raised rabbits, butchered them, and eaten the meat. The entire process starting with building suitable cages, buying feed, harvesting grass (yes they need both feed and grasses), and keeping them healthy was a time consuming, expensive endeavor. It reminded me of my grandfather who told me once that after many years of raising chickens he finally got the cost of a dozen eggs down to $2.
If I had to, I would butcher and eat a rabbit, but I would really rather leave that experience in the past. I’ve also done chickens and pigs, and to be perfectly honest, I prefer to receive meat in tidy white paper packages.
My plan is to start converting some of those buckets of dry beans in my storage to canning jars of cooked beans with a square of salt pork inside. Not only will they require much less fuel to cook when we eat them, but home canned foods are supposedly protected from seizure.
HB - seizure??
Watching in Texas – at 09:08
Yes, that handy Executive Order (I think) that allows TPTB to “reallocate” supplies in the case of an emergency. Essentially those in power can come into your home and take whatever you have in the way of food, water, fuel, etc. and distribute it where they see fit.
Because of the possibility of improper canning methods, home canned foods are not to be taken.
Watching in Texas – at 09:08
Bear in mind that the state seal of WV bears the motto: “Montani Semper Liberi” , Mountaineers are always free. In most parts of the state we would take a dim view of the “government” reallocating resources. I’m sure that holds true for some areas in Texas also.
Ah, yes, now I remember….we had a lively thread on that issue on Fluwiki number 1 - I seem to recall something about “they can have my rice and beans when they pry them out of my cold, dead fingers”!
HB at 9:15 (I think our posts crossed) - yep, I think the important thing to remember when dealing with a goodly number of Texans is that: we used to be an independent country! And weirdly enough, I’ve talked to folks who still think that way. As one old-timer I spoke with put it “we don’t cotton to them better-offs in DC tellin us how to do things”. If TSHTF, that guy just might get his wish - of course, all potential help and aid will disappear too…
WIT: My sister used to work for the OMB and many years ago there was a snowstorm that paralayzed the D.C. area for 3 days. Practically every office of government was shut down. When she came home for a visit and talked about how the government was completely shut down, it really pissed her off when I said we didn’t even notice a ripple of effect here…
I think in an extreme scenario we would end up primarily vegetarian with occassional infusions of meat/dairy protein from hunting/gathering efforts and/or trading with neighbors. We have a large section of property that I would clear of the current rhodies/lilacs/hydrangeas etc that inhabit it … and plant a much larger garden then our current one. The new sections would be for corn and dry beans to add to the veggies from our regular garden. We keep corn and dry bean seeds on hand (buying fresh heirloom seed each year) - just in case. We also have dried dairy (milk, eggs, and cheese) and TVP in our long term storage that if used judiciously could stretch into a very long time for a supplemental protein source. In addition, our neighboring watershed area has wild rabbits that we would likely set snares or deadfall traps for. We also live close to the Puget Sound and could gather shellfish (barring red tides etc). We have a rainwater catchment system for a backup water supply. Requires filtering and purifying - but better than going thirsty! We also have some streams within hiking distance that we could haul water from - but it is not my first fall back position because of the logistics (water is very heavy and distance). I like to have plan A, plan B, and if possible a Plan C and more!
DoubleD - well thought out plans indeed! We don’t have a lot of room for gardening, BUT, I did purchase some seeds this year - we could certainly convert lawn to garden if need be.
‘’Hillbilly Bill – at 09:15
Watching in Texas – at 09:08
Bear in mind that the state seal of WV bears the motto: “Montani Semper Liberi” , Mountaineers are always free. In most parts of the state we would take a dim view of the “government” reallocating resources. I’m sure that holds true for some areas in Texas also.’‘
I grew up in NH- their motto is the best,
Live Free or Die
(I think we fw’s should steal it!!)
preppiechick - I like it!!!
WIT:
I know you fellow Texans are our compadres!
Yeah, well, CAs motto is Eureka!
Means “I found it! But I can’t afford it”
I know, I know…off topic. Sorry
Watching in Texas @ 9:23 - I’m a little late to this discussion, but I couldn’t help adding something. When I was growing up, I remember my aunts, uncles and grandmothers always referring to anyone north of the Panhandle as a “Yankee.” As in, “he’s pretty nice for a Yankee.” I think a lot of folks still think that way.
This thread is helping me focus on the do-able. We have a big grassy lot and in the back of my mind I’ve been thinking “We could have a dairy cow” for milk, cheese, yogurt — but I do know that cows can kick viciously, can stomp a dog to death, need to be milked DAILY and what little I know about milk pasteurization makes me cringe (heating five gallons of milk a day over a camping stove . . .ugh). Plus the need to keep everything very clean.
I think I’ll go order some more powdered milk from Honeyville . . .
I don’t know why but when I tried to post some advice for Wolf about raising rabbits it was blocked by the site administrator. I would welcome an explaination since nothing I posted should have been a problem.
If anyone is seriously thinking about growing your own milk, I strongly suggest getting a dairy goat. You or someone you know well (and is willing to share) will also have to have a buck goat because does only give milk when they are pregnant or have kidded. Male goats, esp. their urine, smell bad. I dont mind them, but a lot of folks do, and the smell will permeate your milk so the buck and does have to be kept separate. My sister “Heidi” keeps the girls and I keep the boys at my place.
Other than that, dairy goats are great to have. They are easy to handle (esp. if you get one from a 4H kid), smart enough to be decent pets, easily trained to stand for milking, give about a gallon of 6 percent butterfat, naturally homogenized, milk a day. If you keep your goats healthy and tested for tuberculosis (or have a closed herd like ours), you dont need to pasteurize the milk, although that is very easy to do. Cleaning a bucket and the stuff for straining the milk isnt much of a chore (since they are small enough to fit in a sink), feed and vet supplies are relatively inexpensive, and the size of the animals you butcher (unneeded bucks or culled does) makes the work of skinning and cutting up the meat worthwhile.
I love my goats. I have purebred LaManchas (no ears) and a couple of LaManchas crossbred with an Alpine breed. Good milkers, good mothers, and my buck, “Spot,” is a sweetheart who thinks he’s a big dog.
As always when buying livestock, be sure to get the best quality (not necessarily show quality) that you can afford, with the emphasis on milk production and mothering ability. If you arent experienced at handling livestock, be sure to put a premium on kind, manageable temperaments, too. Again, purchasing a kid’s 4H project will help in that regard.
You can also get milk-meat goat crosses. That way, your culls are even bigger and have more meat, but you wont get quite as much milk from them. If you handraise the babies on bottles, you usually end up with more milk for the table, but we dont do that and still have plenty for 3 households.
For anybody who has never raised any livestock, I strongly suggest you gain some experience from someone who is currently raising what you are interested in having. Even small animals like rabbits require you to tend them EVERY single day. The only way people who raise livestock get to take even the briefest of vacations is to have a nearby farmer tend their stock while they are gone. It is not for everybody. If you think wading through waist deep snow to feed hay to cattle sounds unattractive, imagine having the regular flu and still having to do that. Been there, done that, didn’t want a t-shirt to remind me of it.
Olymom – at 12:43
Wouldn’t really need to pasteurize it. Don’t know if I could get used to the taste of raw milk or not though. BLECH
Bill,
You said you were canning up your beans with salt pork now. I’ve thought of doing that too (we have some country ham in the freezer) Do you cook the beans first? I canned up 7qts of navybeans and ham hock after cooking it and after processing, the beans were mush. I wonder if you could soak them over night then can without cooking or if they would swell too much and burst the jars.
HBB at 13:19 - My brother, a life-long farmer/rancher raised rabbits some years back looking to supplement the farm income. Even with much experience in raising/caring for livestock, it was more than he cared to handle. For those wanting to get into it for survival purposes, good luck. I say, stock up on those canned goods while you can!
Look up the book “Barnyard in Your Backyard” by Gail Damerow It’s a lage paperback priced at about $25.
I first saw it at my public library and found it full of useful information.
Barnyard in Your Backyard offers expert advice on raising: chickens, geese, ducks, rabbits, goats, sheep, and dairy cows. Each chapter focuses on a different animal, discussing the pros and cons of raising the animal, housing and land requirements, feeding guidelines, health concerns, and a schedule for routine care. It includes guidelines for processing barnyard products such as milk, wool, and eggs. It contains easy-to-use checklists and charts, and a seasonal care calendar.
As others have pointed out raising farm animals is not for everyone, they require daily care no matter what. I do raise show rabbits and we have raised our own beef in the past so I know something of the costs and personal dedication involved.
Carrey in VA – at 13:19
After some experimenaion with chili, my plan is to soak the beans overnight and then cook them for about 30 minutes to make sure they are good and hot before packing them into jars. My canner only holds 7 quarts, so I will more than likely do a big pot of beans with a smoked ham hock and then drop a 1″ or so square of salt pork in each jar before adding the beans. I hope to put aside 7 quarts each time we have a pot of beans this fall.
Re livestock raising: I second the suggestion to hook up with someone who already knows what they are doing. Probably, they will try to talk you out of it. IMO, if you are really inexperienced, take their advice. A pandemic is not a good time for practice or trial and error.
“Heidi” is going on vacation next week. I get to go over to her farm, take care of the goats, the dogs, the cats, and the dozen or so horses while she is gone. This in addition to my own. Twice a day every day. I can remember many times that I did animal chores when I was so sick I could hardly stand and the few days I’ve been hospitalized in the last 30 years were major problems getting people to cover for me because we didnt live anywhere near other family members.
My husband and I havent had a vacation since we took the kids to Disney World in 1994. Day trips are about the best we can do - leave in the AM after the chores are done and be home by dark to do it all over again.
Carrey in VA – at 13:19 You said: “Wouldn’t really need to pasteurize it. Don’t know if I could get used to the taste of raw milk or not though. BLECH”
It is important to pasteurize raw milk. I think it is either meningitis or encephalitis, but . . .one of those . . . that you can get from raw milk. Not a pleasant thought.
I will second the advice on the HUGE commitment raising farm animals can be. We have raised chickens and goats. We loved both. We also raise a rather larger garden. I have three kids, so the labor factor is there. They all help with the morning and evening animal chores, and when its garden season, they must each weed three rows before they can sit down for breakfast. (Food motivates)
For us, the chickens were the easiest to raise. We would order about 200 chicks around the beginning of spring, and by June or July, they are ready to butcher. We then can (glass jars) about ¾ of them and we take the rest to a local processor who cleans and vacuum wraps them as whole roasters. (These we place into the freezer) We had about 15 layers for fresh eggs. We sort of free ranged them so the management was pretty easy.
Goats, we love, love, love having goats. We had alpines. Three goats gave us milk to give away. A family of five could probably have enough milk with one or two. We pasteurized our milk. A very simple process of just bringing the milk up to 165F as fast as possible, then taking it off and cooling it as fast as possible.
No bucks on our property. We took our girls out to be bred. We just did not like what it did to the milk.
Nothing better then an ice cold glass of goats milk, with a slice of freshly made bread covered in peanut butter. Yummy!!!!
We live in Texas now, so we are setting up our property to raise boar goats. My wife wants an alpine to milk, but I am concerned about the poor quality hay down here.
We will also raise rabbits, probably New Zealand’s and chickens (subject to BF outbreak) Our new garden spot will be ready next spring and we should be able to raise all of our produce.
Its easy for us, cause we enjoy it. We like this lifestyle. My kids all know how to butcher, (yes the girls to) and we understand the natural cycle of life and our calling to be responsible stewards of the resources’ that have been given to us.
Having said that, if you grew up in the city or cant handle hot sweaty work, blood and feathers, forget it, go buy more canned goods. You will save your relationship.
Take care,
Ange D at 17:34 -
Oops! I drank nothing but unpasteurized raw milk for the first 17 years of my life. I grew up on a Grade A dairy farm and our milk came straight out of the tank. Maybe I was just lucky - but I’m still here to tell about it and so far, no serious illness of any kind. My milk these days, however, comes in nice little plastic jugs from the grocery store:)
Worldman - Your post brings back memories of watching my maternal grandmother “dress” chickens in the summertime. Hens were put in the freezer for the most delicious chicken and noodles I have ever eaten and fryers were put in the freezer for good ol’ fried chicken. I have never tasted chicken from a store that could even hope to come close to that taste. It is to “die for”. Sadly, I’m too much of a girly-girl to ever be able to butcher chickens. My loss :(
Ange D – at 17:34
“It is important to pasteurize raw milk. I think it is either meningitis or encephalitis, but . . .one of those . . . that you can get from raw milk. Not a pleasant thought. “
If ya don’t know where you milk is coming from, then yes it should be pasteurized. My husbands family had milk cows and drank raw milk, cream, and buttermilk till the kids were grown and not there to do the milking anymore.
eughh i just read about the satins..sorry guys- no vegan here, but I like meat the way any real city slicker does-cooked and in a take out bag. I can beat an egg to death and drink canned milk, but to look a bunny in the eye and then….nada-not for me. And I know I’m being 2 faced about this!!!
DH hunts -I’ll cook venison and rabbit once someone else does the icky stuff…better get more canned stuff…living off the land to me is eating out at each place until you’ve tried them all…..
Grace RN – at 18:55 --- Sounds like my DW!!! Her idea of “primitive camping” is staying on the first floor of the Holiday Inn!! LOL!!!
Grace RN – at 18:55
I’m with you. The in-laws kill a beef every winter and we go down and help process and wrap it. That part doesn’t bother me cause its already killed, gutted, skined and quartered by the time we get there.
I’m so thankful every year not to be there for the first part.
Ange: There is nothing inherently wrong with drinking raw milk. You just have to take proper veterinary care of your animals. If you are getting milk direct from a producer, then you need to be sure that the farmer knows what she is doing AND religiously does it. If she doesnt, then buy from someone else, dont rely on pasteurization.
The disease you get from raw milk is tuberculosis, but if the cow (or goat) isnt infected, you wont be either, which is why you test the herd and then “close” the herd (basically quarantine them). When you get a new animal, you test it and then put it into a separate quarantine for 2–4 weeks to make sure that it doesnt have anything else. There are other diseases (like clostridium infection) that are dangerous to the goats. Many herds are “certified free” of those disases because the herds were tested and kept free for generations. When you buy a milk goat from one of these herds you generally pay a premium for it, but it’s worth it in the long run.
I have mentioned this before, but will again because this strategy is such a huge net gain in meat reserves in one fell swoop. If the panflu begins in winter and you can store meat in a shed or your garage without worry of spoilage, immediately get your rifle (even a .22 rifle would do) and shoot your suburban bambi in the head and drag his carcass into your work area and hang him by his back hooves and dress him out. Go on-line if you need instructions on cleaning a deer. It is isn’t that difficult. And even if spoilage is a concern, eat what you can and give the rest to your pets until it gets too rotten for them.
Thanks for all the input. I’m cured of rabbits! Had one as a pet when the kids were little - wouldn’t have minded killing that S.O.B. But sounds like the cost/benefit ratio isn’t where it needs to be. Have not ruled out guinea pigs ;) I worked on a small dairy farm as a youngster. The milk was pasteurized (had to be since farmer sold it) but not homogenized. Still can’t bring myself to drink that stuff in the plastic bottles. I adore goats and have always wanted one… or a dozen. My grandmother told stories of her ‘nanny-goat’ she had as a child that had the run of the house! Still trying to think longer-term tho. Have enough beans, rice, veggies, flour and TVP for a wave or three, if careful. Just not convinced we’re going to pull out of this thing as quickly as some think and am concerned about re-stocking supplies. Even should all hold up, I’m going to be clean outta money if I don’t work for even PART of ONE wave. I’ve got 2 jobs now and just barely make it.
Wolf - I have those long-term concerns too. If needed, DH will hunt deer, rabbits and squirrels (yes, I said squirrels.) Ate wild rabbits, as well as tame, and squirrels many times as a child. The way my mother prepared them, they were delicious!
Would never turn up my nose at squirrel! Or any wild game (shouldn’t be too hard to get ‘em here in the city either - tho I’m not sure they’ll be as healthy eating as I’d like). What I’m having to come to grips with is right out of Arlo’s Alice’s Restaurant - “There may not be much you can do at all. But there’s something you can try” I’ve stocked food, water filter, antivirals, 3 types of antibiotics. (We’ve rarely ever used ‘em, but just in case) I’ve put together rehydration kits (based on Woodson’s recipe) for ‘just add water’ solutions in case I’m too ill (or not here) to whip it up. My friends & family are pretty well convinced I’m nuts. I’m not entirely convinced I’m NOT nuts. I’ve always been fascinated by science. The internet was, to me, the hope of a new understanding of the world. I was connected via Hayes smartmodem before there were ISP’s and when webpages looked like term papers. Bad term papers. And one of the first places in my bookmarks was the CDC - which, I might add, was nearly unnegotiable - not sure if they’ve improved it; never go there anymore. I was primarily watching dengue and malaria in those days. Thought that it would be a prime indicator of global warming. In short order I became convinced it would be flu that hit us as a species - far sooner than the creep of the other, more exotic, diseases or for that matter global warming (at least directly). The ubiquitous, seemingly non-threatening, set-you-back a few days flu would be our undoing. Already killing far more people than most realize, a strain for which humans had no immunity was, to my mind, a certainty. When avian flu hit Hong Kong I was glued to the news, and truly believed that I was watching a simply heroic effort taking place. Though we’ve come to this, I still believe not enough credit is given to the efforts of those who fought to contain this pathogen in the early days. But I have to conclude that there may not be much that we can do at all. I still believe, tho, there’s something we can try.
Medical Maven, Before you got out and shoot Bambi, check with the local veterinarians or better yet, your State vet and wildlife department, regarding the incidence of “wasting disease” in your local deer population.
For all intents and purposes, it’s the same as BSE, or “mad cow.” It has been identified in Elk out west and eastern whitetail deer. I think that it has come as far east as Virginia.
Im not sure that I would personally want to risk eating a deer anymore (and I LOVE venison) unless I was truly starving and had no choice. It really IS that well-distributed.
SaddleTramp at 21:31 Agreed. Chronic wasting is pretty much everywhere. But I’ve still got veni-sausage in the freezer with no more concern than if I ate a hamburger. The limited testing that the gov’t was doing on beef has now been curtailed. Few (if any proven) cases of prion illness have come from deer. Not to say it CAN’T, just that given todays slaughterhouse practices, it’s more likely a cattle-borne disease. If you kill, dress and butcher your own deer (or have a trusted source who won’t mix batches) your danger is minimal, IMHO.
Wolf: I agree that what the USDA is doing with cattle testing is nothing short of criminal. And home-butchered venison is probably as safe as hamburger, but Im not sure how safe that is anymore either. Since there is no way to visually tell if an animal is infected in the early, but still contagious, stages AND there is no way to get rid of it or protect yourself against it by proper hygiene or cooking, I think the risk is a bit higher than your estimate. Sheep arent much better. Scabies, the sheep version of BSE, has been around for hundreds of years.
I havent heard much about wasting disease in goats though, have you?
Scabies (or scrapie isn’t it?) in sheep for sure. And, of course, the risk may be higher than I’ve stated. Just trying to put risk in some perspective. Chances of drowning in the ocean are far less than getting killed in a car wreck getting there, ya know? Have not heard of the problem in goats, tho there seems to me no known reason why they wouldn’t be susceptible to the the sheep form of the disease. However, the fact that neither of us have heard of it may indicate some natural resistance? Think we need an educated opinion on that - AND the deer/elk BDE question. Meantime, all the best SaddleTramp. Had an Arabian once which was the love of my life. What a horse!
Read BSE… and he was a 14 1/2 hand giant of a jumper!
Wolf - you are absolutely right about the scrapie. I feel really dumb. Scabies is a skin parasite. That’s what happens when you hit the “over 40 slide!”
Re the jumping Arabs: I have a youngster in training now who cleared nearly 4 feet at 9 months, with all the style of an Olympian. We had to add another flight of boards to his paddock to keep him in. And I’ve had two other “motivated” stallions (on more than one occasion) go over a 5+ foot round pen to get to the mares. Pretty amazing for little guys of 14.2 to 15h. They are the greatest.
Saddletramp at 21:31: I believe the incubation period for BSE in humans is decades. I am of the age (55) that even if I were so unlucky to slay a deer so infected, I would be coming down with it near the end of my term. We have not had cases reported in our area. It would have been all over the news, if that were the case.
It is the same scenario for mercury and PCBs in fish, etc. Unless you consume really high quantities on a week to week basis it is an inconsequential factor.
Now the younger the person is the more you have to worry. One might leave the game for the oldies, and the canned foods, etc. for the kids. (And the kids would probably be fine with that). The supplies would still be stretched appreciably in that manner.
There is a really good site called Urban Homesteading. They have a ton of great links and lots of “how to” instructions from people that actually live in that fashion.
Wolf: BSE can incubate for decades in both cattle and humans, but there are 150 cases in England that say that it isnt always that way. Those folks were dead within 24 months at the most and it wasnt pretty.
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