From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Ask Questions of the Moderators Here XVII

03 November 2006

pogge – at 17:25

Continued from here.

Tom DVM – at 17:54

anon 22. We had the Spanish Flu, the Asian Flu and the Hong Kong Flu in the past century…

I fail to see why you would have a problem with me naming it the China Flu.

This is a personal decision of mine to give credit where credit is due…and there is no doubt who deserves the credit for this flu…a close second choice, in my opinion, would be the ‘WHO Flu’. I will have to hop over to the PPF thread to figure out who chose that name.

 I am not asking anyone else in the world to use the same terminology…as that would be unethical and undemocratic.
anon_22 – at 17:59

Tom,

We talked about it before on one of the rumour threads, maybe you missed it.

The debate was halfway down this thread

anon_22 – at 18:03

Let me put the posts that I made at the time, here

On the subject of ‘Chinese flu’, I don’t believe it is helpful to start using ethnic labels for a possible pandemic which, whatever you think, is a 99.9% naturally-occurring event, which will kill millions and millions.

For those who don’t know, I’m ethnic Chinese. But I would feel the same if you start using ‘Algerian flu’ or ‘Timbuktu flu’.

Come a pandemic, there will be enough destruction without adding blame, which will not backfire on whoever you believe was negligent right now, but on the totally innocent person of a particular ethnic origin going about their own lives, who will have exactly the same chance of having someone dear dying from the virus as the rest of us.


FrenchieGirl – at 07:16

I should also be reminded that we have had many bad ethnic flus, Spanish flu, which did not originate in Spain; Hong Kong flu, Russian flu, Asian flu, etc.

First, none of these were ethnic in a sense that it arose because of these people, but it just happened to be wherever it was thought to have started. But uninformed members of the public won’t be able to tell the difference.

Second, just cos something was done before does not make it right or useful or appropriate. It wasn’t that long ago when African Americans had to sit at the back of the bus. Societies evolve, for the better, I hope.

Third, when people are dying, none of these arguments will be remembered. Just the name, and the excuse to vent their grief and anger on someone.

Finally, science has also moved on and we no longer use place of origin as name for disease.

Avoiding unintended consequences is part of pandemic mitigation.

anon_22 – at 18:13

For me the big picture, and the reason why I still keep doing this, is this:

There’s a virus that is likely to kill many millions breathing down our necks. The world is not ready. There are many problems we haven’t even begun to list properly. There will be secondary and tertiary consequences on top of the primary ones caused by disease and death.

Maybe I’m naive. I understand that politics is very complicated. I don’t have time for that. There is no time to change governments, either, IMO, not in any substantial ways. That’s going to take too long. Maybe I’m wrong, but that is what I think.

So all I;m focussed on, and believe me it takes at least 18 hours of my 24 hour days, is how to mitigate the potential damage. What is it that we can do right now that will result in the easiest reduction of mortality?

For me, calling names is not it.

Whatever you think about the many things that the Chinese government has done wrong, I absolutely believe it is counterproductive for the world for us to use this as a label for a disease. Will it save lives? Will it do anything other than make someone feel good for maybe less than a minute? What purpose can it possibly achieve?

But think how many secondary and tertiary consequences would that result in? How many people have already died in the past century from differences occurring at the political level that has nothing to do with the individual?

Germans vs Jews, Jews vs Palestinians, white vs black, Hutu vs Tutsi

Do we want to be guardians against bigotry, or do we want to be faciliators?

FloridaGirlat 19:23

Mods, I am sorry… I Introduced sidescroll on the Indonesian XX thread.

Bronco Bill – at 19:24

My feeling about the “name” of a flu pandemic that is going to occur is that in short order, it will receive it’s “official” name from some ‘talking head’ news anchor at either CNN or FOX, probably a year or so after it has done it’s destruction and passed into the history books. Right now, it’s “Bird Flu”. In enlightened circles, such as ours, it’s “Avian Influenza”. In time, it may become “China Flu” or “Indo Flu” or even “Wyoming Flu”. We just don’t know. We’re sitting here, arguing about a name that doesn’t even exist yet.

I have to agree with Anon_22 that we need to get off this “naming” and back to what we’re all here for…prepping and getting/helping others to prep for what could turn out to be the worst plaque mankind has ever seen…

anon_22 – at 19:27

BB

CNN and networks will be under orders from their lawyers not to use these names, trust me.

Medical Maven – at 19:41

I hereby pledge to the name the flu after myself when it explodes on the scene.

Now, can we move on. : )

mmmm good, the MMpanfluitic kill-you-on-the-spot AND spit-you-out-sideways fluuuuu.

Now, I am tapdancing out of this thread.

anon_22 – at 19:42

MM, that’s funny! LOL

observer – at 19:57

Perhaps we should call it the Swiss flu - Switzerland is politically neutral, WHO resides there (Geneva), along with the UN, and Red Cross, also many drug companies, insurance companies and banking. It’s a nice package. All those in favor say “yes”. Good it is decided the Swiss flu. One more plus they will be able to contain it with their year round civilian national military and fortification along all of the borders. Switzerland gets my vote.

Watching in Texas – at 20:27

I suppose it is asking too much for us all just to call it H5N1 and then join hands and sing a rousing chorus of Koom Bah Yah around a campfire :-)

WIT

Anon_451 – at 20:31

You need to check the Nepal thread, getting kind of interesting over there.

DemFromCTat 20:56

I’ve sent out some inquiries, Anon_451. Let’s see if I get any feedback.

DemFromCTat 20:57

WIT, calling it H5N1 is a terrific idea.

Monotreme – at 21:08

There is a lot to respond to, but I won’t do it in any particular order.

As regards naming the flu, I don’t think this is a very important issue, but I can see how calling it Chinese flu could be cause trouble for people of Chinese origin once the pandemic begins. There were problems with stigmatization of asians during SARS which I think was very wrong. OTOH, I do think the government of China bears special responsibility for the spread of H5N1, so I can understand why some wanted to call it China flu. My own suggestion was Hu-Flu, which puts the blame on someone who could have done a lot to warn neighboring countries about new strains of H5N1, but chose not to. In any case, this idle chit-chat, because the name is unlikely to be chosen by anyone at Flu Wiki. Both the WHO and the CDC are very sensitive to the labeling issue, and don’t very much that they will choose a name that is offensive to China.

Tom DVM – at 21:08

How be you call it H5N1 and I will call it China Flu…

…and I will continue to speak the truth as I see it about China and the World Health Organization and you can speak the truth as you see it about China and the World Health Organization and any other topic you choose to comment on…

…and we will all “sing a rousing chorus of Koom Bah Yah around a campfire.”

Tom DVM – at 21:10

and by the way, I did not name it Chinese Flu for the people but China Flu for the country responsible for the mess we find ourselves in today.

Monotreme – at 21:21

anon_22′s launched a personal attack on me at 10:24 on the previous thread. It went as follows:

I also want to add that I have emailed a few people on this forum with explanations on this matter. While some of them have had the decency and courtesy to at least engage in correspondence with me in an attempt to resolve our differences, I am very disappointed not to have received any reply whatsoever from Monotreme. And this is not the first time that he has not responded to my attempt at communication.

This is false. She partially corrected this – at 11:38 when she said:

I need to make a small but important correction to my 10:24 post. I was mistaken to say Monotreme did not reply to my email. There was an initial short reply which did not respond to the contents of my email. I apologize sincerely for Monotreme for that oversight.

In fact, anon-22 and I have had very long and frequent email conversations regarding her background, her opinions on China and why she says the things she does on Flu Wiki. I will not repeat them here. She has also made repeated attempts to meet me in person in spite of my stated wish to remain anonymous. I declined all of these invitations politely until she sent me an email that stepped over the line, IMO. I did not respond to this last email because I found the contents and tone disturbing.

I find the attempts to personalize this issue distasteful. I am a scientist and am happy to discuss any issue on the basis of evidence and logic. I am not prepared to adjust my comments based on claims of international intrigue. If that is required at Flu Wiki, I would prefer not to participate.

Monotreme – at 21:30

I will repeat, for the last time, my concern regarding the some of the wording in the preamble by the Mods.

However, different governments have different standards as to what constitutes libelous or seditious language. Therefore, we would prefer that contributors express their opinions in ways that will allow as many people in different countries to access the information as possible.

I have repreatedly asked the following question, but have yet to receive and answer from the Mods:

I am trying to understand what this means. It seems to imply posts on Flu Wiki must comply with Chinese censorship and libel laws. I am hoping that the Mods mean something else, but only they can clarify what they mean.

The Mods have not answered this question, which is surprising to me. I expected my interpretation to be rapidly dismmissed and an alternative explanation provided. The fact that it has not been addressed implies to me that the Chinese laws regarding libel and sedition will now apply to posts at Flu Wiki. Sorry, but I cannot accept this.

It is a matter of principle.

Watching in Texas – at 21:37

Monotreme - I really rely on your postings here. Just so you know. In case you are thinking about leaving, that is.

Tom DVM – at 21:38

“Do we want to be guardians against bigotry, or do we want to be faciliators?”

Justa thought – at 21:41

Maybe I’m off the wall, but something popped into my mind (what’s left of it after a long week). Wasn’t there mention this week of one of the mods being in SAR Hong Kong where she has a home? And family all over? Is she or her family at risk with this? Sorry if that’s nutty or wrong, too much previous State Dept intrique in years past infuencing my tiny hairs at the back of my neck. Might have been another poster? Just a thought. And I don’t like censorship, but maybe it’s needed for a short time till folks get out of wherever they are..? Ok, going to put my tin hat on and go eat my evening meal about four hours late, low blood sugar probably to blame for rambling.

DemFromCTat 21:47

People are prickly and decide what to take offense at, above and beyond anything anyone else has to say. That’s human nature and cannot be controlled for.

Person A says something.

Person B takes offense.

Person A never meant to suggest anything offensive.

Person B agrees, but takes offense anyway, not out of intent but because the subject is such a sensitive one.

Person A decides that’s unacceptable.

Now someone else gets offended, either at one of the responses, or of the posters, or something else all together.

It would seem I’m describing the events here over the last few days, but actually my family has seen that dynamic for years, and it’s why one cousin isn’t speaking to another (and that’s a true story). No one was wrong, exactly. But people really have to relax a little and stop assuming they are completely right.

Monotreme, by all means discuss what you wish based on evidence and logic. That’s all I’m asking. You may well be right. But logic would dictate that in the absence of metrics to measure our reach, and to accomplish the goal of helping the greatest number of people prepare, and to make sure that Flu Wiki remains a useful communication tool, show a little self-restraint. It won’t disrupt the logic, and it won’t change the conclusions to avoid the word conspiracy, but it will help us communicate. You’ve shown that understanding vis-a-vis the flu naming convention (which Flu Wiki policy for the record henceforth will call H5N1, whatever Tom DVM calls it - sorry, Tom).

Watching in Texas – at 21:50

Tom DVM - mostly I just want you and Monotreme to keep on explaining things to folks like me who could never understand them otherwise. This is terribly selfish on my part I know, but you two are really, really valued - I have learned a lot from both of you, and with some of the news items getting a tidge “interesting”, I would really appreciate the chance to learn more from you both. (WIT hums a chorus of Koom Bah Yah and hopes no one leaves)

(This also includes Anon_22) (so, everybody stay and keep explaining things to WIT, please)

DemFromCTat 21:53

Seems to me the easiest and perhaps best way to handle this is what we’ve belatedly done. If someone writes a post that seems to the mods a bit over the top, we will reserve the right to post a disclaimer at the beginning of the post, as was done with Monotreme’s except maybe shorter and clearer). The disclaimer will make clear that it is not Flu wiki endorsed opinion. We’d much rather do that than pull posts or shut off discussion.

But:

Does that seem like a reasonable compromise to people?

Dennis in Colorado – at 22:03

DemFromCT – at 21:53 The disclaimer will make clear that it is not Flu wiki endorsed opinion.

I wasn’t aware that Flu Wiki had any endorsed opinions. What are they?

DemFromCTat 22:06

There aren’t any. I don’t want the Forum to be taken as such. The Opinion section of the wiki was created for opinions, but the Forum doesn’t have any such designation.

KimTat 22:07

Yep. and I agree with WIT at 21:50

MaMaat 22:09

Me too.

pogge – at 22:13

It seems to imply posts on Flu Wiki must comply with Chinese censorship and libel laws.

I wasn’t involved in writing it, but I’ll take a stab at it. No, I don’t think it’s suggesting that you have to run everything you post by an expert in Chinese libel law before you post it. I think it’s suggesting that when you address a specific subject, you think about the context and the effect your language might have and consider whether the way you’re addressing the subject is going to accomplish the goal you have in mind.

And I still haven’t read the thread that started all of this. I frankly got quite annoyed myself at the some of the things posted earlier in this and the preceding threads and decided a cooling off period was in order.

DemFromCTat 22:23

I think it’s suggesting that when you address a specific subject, you think about the context and the effect your language might have and consider whether the way you’re addressing the subject is going to accomplish the goal you have in mind.

That is the intent.

As posted on the preceding thread, decisions are not required immediately. There’s much to mull over, and a cooling off period is certainly in order.

If I don’t answer further posts tonight, I will be back tomorrow.

Dennis in Colorado – at 22:24

DemFromCT – at 22:06 There aren’t any.

Then by placing a disclaimer in front of some posts, you are giving the wrong impression. You are implying that the disclaimed post contains an opinion that is counter to your own. After all, almost every post here is based on the author’s opinion, and you don’t disclaim every post. A blanket disclaimer should be sufficient, and individual disclaimers should not be made. That is just my opinion, of course, and does not represent the opinion of Flu Wiki.

DemFromCTat 22:28

Dennis in Colorado – at 22:24

We’re wrestling with it. The easiest thing to do is to not need to do it. That’s where self-restraint comes in. But you’re quite right, we may need to build a disclaimer into the header on every post. Sigh.

Tabby – at 22:33

Wow, Ask the Mods has never been so interesting (or dramatic).

I’m a lurker who has learned a tremendous amount about something I never gave a second’s thought to before from Monotreme, Anon_22, TomDVM, and all the other wonderful people at this forum.

Having all these different yet brilliant minds working together for the common good is such a nice thing to see. It’s been very scary learning about H5N1, but having this forum to come to helps a lot. I would be extremely sad to see either Monotreme or Anon_22 leave over this…especially with things so ominous in Nepal and India. We need the hive mind to stay intact, IMO.

Medical Maven – at 22:35

In the marketplace of ideas among such an illustrious grouping that we fluwikians represent I think each person’s thoughts should stand or fall based on their reception.

We seem to self-regulate ourselves fairly well. And the mods are there for the rogue poster or the extremely bad mood that we all fall into occasionally.

It may or may not be “Nepal”, but one of these days some name will ring in infamy. Crunch time is coming. We can not lose the best of us.

Scaredy Cat – at 22:35

So then why not reopen Monotreme’s thread? See the evidence he has to present, see if there’s anything more to his theory.

treyfish – at 22:36

Okay. I feel partly responsible for this intensley debated thread in connection to the above link. I meant no disrespect to any nationality in reference to my calling this disease the Chinese flu.Not that it would matter what i called it,people will call it what they want when it gets here. As I see it, the Chinese govt can withhold any information it wants to regarding this disease. I also see this as causing direct harm to the world population as a whole. Had this disease originated in America and the American govt was withholding this information, we would be in the street protesting.Still may come to that too. Fortunately we have the relative freedom of the internet. Whether other countries withold the freedom of the internet from their citizens is not the subject or the purpose of the fluwiki. Apparently, the Chinese govt. sees fit to withold information pertaining to this disease.One would think they might ask for more help. The widespread movement of the disease and current strengenthing are a direct result of ineffective vaccines and policies affecting not only China and South East Asia but Europe and the rest of the world. At least they ARE trying to fix it.It just seems we aren’t getting all the facts.Even the w.h.o is not being told all the facts. Yes, it is a naturally occuring disease which reoccurs every thirty-five or forty years. You would think we would have a handle on it by now. H5N1 is a very nasty strain and looks to be headed worldwide in the very near future. China’s lack of responsibility in “sharing to solve” this problem distresses me greatly. I feel the Chinese govt. can and should do more to help solve this global problem. The reason I suggested calling it the Chinese flu, is because that seems to be where it originated from and it seems to be getting worse and worse and we seem to be learning less and less from the Chinese. Again, I meant no disrespect to the chinese people. I dont recall any Spanish people getting lynched or burnt in ovens from the naming of the 1918 Spanish flu. I was merely looking for a more serious name leaving the bird flu out, as the “Bird Flu’ doesn’t sound serious enough.I respect anon_22 as i do all on this site regardless of race or ethnicity.I also don’t believe the chinese govt has this site on their “read daily priority list”.Would i or any other poster intentionally try to endanger another on this site?Sounds far fetched to me also.Implied or not.Yes im a little on edge and not alone.I’m sorry to help cause such a ruckus ,but not for the debate.If anything said on any site offends a govt such that we have to worry they will ban us ,they in turn do their own people a GREAT disservice.Saving lives right?We are saving lives.Getting people ready right?We are getting people ready.. to help themselves!I’m ranting i see. Am i wrong to think this way?How about i just call it the “Flying Death” Flu.Anon_22 ,never stop what you do,everyone here needs you.

DemFromCTat 22:38

MM, I quite agree, and I think Dennis in Colorado has a good idea. I’d prefer as much leeway as possible for discussion while still protecting the Forum and its users, and preserving wiki reach. Those are, i think, acceptable goals.

What we have is worth preserving. I hope that Tom and Monotreme have a chance to read the entire thread and think on it. I know the mods will.

DemFromCTat 22:41

treyfish – at 22:36

We’re all on the same side.

Scaredy Cat – at 22:35

That goes for you, too. And in answer to your question, all in good time. ;-)

DemFromCTat 22:42

Tabby – at 22:33

Thanks for posting. i think we all agree with you.

Monotreme – at 22:43

Watching in Texas – at 21:50

I think it might be best if I take a break from Flu Wiki for a while. But don’t worry, if something critical happens, I’ll be back.

Best wishes,

Monotreme

treyfish – at 22:44

Yes, all on the same side.:)

Bronco Bill – at 22:46

Watching in Texas – at 20:27 --- I never got the chance to learn that song. How does it go? ;-)

DemFromCT – at 21:53 --- we have to reserve the right to moderate. Does that seem like a reasonable compromise to people?

No. As the owners, Moderators, editors and creators of this site, you do not need to reserve the right to moderate, nor compromise the way you want the site to function. I have a whole litany of reasons why not, but my brain hurts, my fingers are numb, and I think that maybe I will have one glass of RWFK and call it a night.

treyfish – at 22:55

TREME DONT RUN!

DemFromCTat 22:57

BB, actually I’m liking D in C’s idea. I’ve sent it to the mods for study. And I/we will do what’s needed for the site, not to worry. ;-)

Nonetheless, feedback is always welcome.

Bronco Bill – at 22:57

I would be extremely sad to see either Monotreme or Anon_22 leave over this…especially with things so ominous in Nepal and India. We need the hive mind to stay intact, IMO.

I second that opinion.

Bronco Bill – at 22:59

‘night all.

Scaredy Cat – at 23:07

Monotreme,

There isn’t another Flu Wikian I respect more than you. I’m sure you’re not making this decision lightly, but, still, I would ask you to reconsider because you are, above all, a humanitarian, a man with a mission, and despite all the glitches and flaws of this place, at this critical juncture in history, you are so very much needed here.

Watching in Texas – at 23:13

Monotreme - I understand that you need to take a break. I have taken one myself, though my input is not on the same level as yours and I’m not sure anyone noticed the break ;-). It does make me feel better knowing that you’ll at least be out there watching, and that you will come back if something happens. Hmmm….I find myself hoping you will come back soon, but that it will be because you miss us and not because TSHTF!!

Bronco Bill - you grab the marshmallows and I’ll put another log on the fire and I’ll be happy to teach you that song:) Okay, forget the marshmallows….with the latest news out of Nepal, better make it RWFK.

enza – at 23:15

Oh dear.

Meanwhile, somewhere in the world… H5N1 is putting the final touches on a mutation that could change our exsistence as we know it

Olymom – at 23:18

Every time I turn on the news there is a blurb about the “Iraq war” — which should probably be called the “American war” because we started it. For the first time in my life, I am embarrassed to be an American — I would hate for all things aggressive to be referred to as “in the American style” — so, I’ll vote for calling the virus “H5N1” and saying the Chinese government officials who are obstrucating are a bunch of turds (dangerous ones too) — but since I don’t want to be painted with the same brush that labels my leaders, let’s do take time to be specific.

Sorry, Tom DVM, “China Flu” doesn’ t work (among other things, it leaves out the jerks at WHO and CDC) — we could, however, call it “Influenza intensifed by political hacks”. I could live with that.

04 November 2006

Dennis in Colorado – at 00:05

Ah, the post that proves my point (Olymom – at 23:18). Without a blanket disclaimer at the forum home page someone might think that, since the moderators didn’t put a disclaimer in front of Olymom’s post, that her sentiments must accurately reflect the views of the moderators/owners of the forum. But Flu Wiki doesn’t have any opinions, so we have cognitive dissonance. Unless, of course, the moderators here do welcome all comments that are disparaging of our current administration and only feel the need to write disclaimers when their own ox is being gored. The line between moderation and censorship is so very fine, isn’t it?

DemFromCTat 00:15

Dennis in Colorado – at 00:05

Your suggestion seems to be the best idea so far on the topic. Why don’t you stop there and be gracious about it?

Snowhound1 – at 00:28

OK…so I am just an observer, but I think everyone just needs to take a deep breath. :) Words and labels are just that…nothing more. I am not easily offended, but I tend to be in the minority there…There is always another means to express one’s beliefs and ideas and perhaps that is all that is needed here. Unfortunatley, it is hard to rephrase one’s original idea once we hit the Post button and of course, each person will interpret what they read just a little bit differently than the next person. The point of this exercise (Fluwikie) is to learn, explore and educate, is it not? Sometimes, it just takes a little extra time to find the right words that won’t offend. Doubly difficult once someone has been offended. I’ve been there myself unintentionally. It is hard to right it. Have you ever read the Constitution? It is a beautiful piece of writing…but carefully crafted. :) It had to be..It is possible to express one’s beliefs and ideas, while carefully considering what repercussions they may have. I guess that this is the point of this exercise and of fluwikie. What is being done here is a beautiful thing and has never been done before, so each step forward is a step that has never been taken before. Every day I believe a new person’s eyes are opened to the what if’s of our future and of a possible pandemic, because of the site and the forum. How cool is that? Monotreme, please don’t “go” anywhere…you are a very much appreciated member of the family…It just won’t seem the same if you “go away”.

And for DemFromCt…shows you how “dumb” I am, but the first time I saw your “name” a long time ago, I thought your name was probably Demetrius or something and you lived in Connecticut. >;) Goes to show you that how each person interprets what they read here is based on their own personal perceptions and experiences. Perhaps it is also true that you can please some of the people some of the time but you can’t please all of the people all of the time..So are you a Democrat? LOL

As far as the “political correctness” of naming the future pandemic, why can’t we just call it what it ends up being, whether that is H5N1 or another virus. I think it will make everyone look much smarter than trying to find a catchy name for it. My best to all…

ANON-YYZ – at 00:31

I have been very busy and have not posted for a while.

This is yet the biggest adjustment reaction I have seen. It smacks of grasping straws, desperation. Do we want to be part of the solution, or be part of the problem?

Some one here mentioned the word ‘humanitarian’. What is harder? Pointing fingers, scapegoating, or finding ways to mitigate? Remember Mother Teresa, Gandhi.

Some of you may recall I objected to sensationalism from some posters for whom I questioned the motives. I still do. Fluwiki has been a meeting place of reason, to talk about perhaps the greatest threat known to mankind in our lifetime.

I hate it when we lose our head.

The world (and yes, even the WHO) has slowly and finally awakened to the pandemic being a real possibility, with high transmissibility, and possibly high CFR. We have always managed to get along, yet we are now bickering. There is no more irony than this. How sad.

DemFromCTat 00:32

Much appreciated, Snowhound1!

DemFromCTat 00:35

ANON-YYZ, good perspective. Of course, it’s not like the rest of the Wiki and Forum stop while we work things out on this thread. ;-)

anonymous – at 01:25

what’s the rules here for bumping ? Since we have no organization within the forum, bumping is the only method to sort threads. So, it would make sense to autobump all threads you are interested in, but this is probably not productive, not wanted. We should have some voting or such, by which the order of the threads is decided.

anon_22 – at 02:06

anonymous – at 01:25

There aren’t any. It isn’t so much about sorting threads as about making certain threads visible when the forum gets crowded. If you see something that you think is important and others might have missed it, then you bump it up. Different people might think this of different threads, and rightly so. I don’t think there is any need for a consensus on the order of the threads, and it would be difficult anyway, with new threads constantly appearing and events changing over time.

anonymous – at 02:33

what, when people are starting to autobump their threads ?
I have a problem to follow my postings and find the replies here. When I look the next day, my threads are far down.

anon_22 – at 02:58

I’m not sure I understand what the question is, so please ask again if I didn’t answer it properly. Threads that gets posted on will come up on top, so if nobody is writing anything to a thread, it will drift down. If you want a specific thread to go back on top so others can see it, by all means ‘bump’ it up by posting anything on it, even just a blank post.

You can’t really autobump a thread, as in it won’t happen automatically. Someone has to find it and do it every time.

anon_22 – at 06:39

The following is my clarification following Monotreme’s earlier posts. I, like everyone else, want to move on. However, I do think it is important to set the record straight, especially on facts. You are all welcome to ask me questions on these for the next day, then we’ll consider this subject closed.

crfullmoon – at 06:56

What Tabby said: …”Having all these different yet brilliant minds working together for the common good is such a nice thing to see. It’s been very scary learning about H5N1, but having this forum to come to helps a lot. I would be extremely sad to see either Monotreme or Anon_22 leave over this…”…

This whole end of history is putting eveyone under a lot of stress; everyone on the ‘Wiki, take care of yourselves, take breaks when needed, and keep coming back as you can.

We are on the same side, after all; the side that wants to try and mitigate a catastrophe. In the face of a lot of “history of human nature repeating itself”. Not pleasant. Very stressful. But “our side” is thin enough, as is…

Bronco Bill – at 07:04

I have always said that I will step down if there was any conflict of interest.

I, for one, see no conflict of interest.

pamcat – at 07:16

I too see no conflict of interest.

Pixie – at 08:05

I’ve been using the word “tension” in a lot of my posts lately.

It’s not just happening here, and I do wish that Monotreme, anon_22, and all of us can realize that the tension we are all caught up in is in no way personal. Even monoliths like WHO and the government of China are yelling at each other in the press this week, and each feels that it has a highly supportable argument. It’s not completely unexpected that if the major parties are at that level of tension, a part of that argument would spill over here.

At the moment, H5N1 is a problem in China and they are taking the heat for it. When it gets here, our government will take the heat for it. The only reason that hasn’t happened so far is that we are pretty much blessedly immune from having to manage the H5N1 problem, for good or for bad, at the moment. We make comments occasionally about the manner in which our CDC confuses matters, or we take the occasional swipe at Weybridge for hoarding their sequences. But right now we aren’t feeling that our very lives are threatened by the actions of the U.S. or British governments (and I am saying “we” in the sense of our overall populations, not Fluwikians, who may differ). The moment that changes, and people realize that the problem is or may shortly be on their doorstep, we will see many opinions here that are much sharper than Monotreme’s opinion on China.

Each opinion here is a valued contribution but it is only that - an opinion held by one individual. Is there a chance that any one person’s opinion may be confused with that of Fluwiki itself? I guess there is, but there’s almost always a counter-opinion offered if you wait 5 minutes. Often, it will be an equally strong opinion. I wish that Monotreme’s and anon_22′s debate was carried out on the actual subject thread, then, and not on a thread where the subject became that of censorship. Their debate has touched on important and valild points - on both sides. We need to see heated and emotional debate like this carried out in - for lack of a better wording - an organized manner no matter how prickly the points made and how much emotion someone else’s opinion can engender. Why? Because we need a model as to how we can and should proceed when TSHTF. The tension we are seeing here is just the tip of the iceberg. It will only get worse from here on in.

This week, there is a lot of tension in the air, but it is not engendered by individuals -it is engendered by the situation. It really alarms me that we have seen both of these highly valued members of the Fluwikie community speak about ending their involvememts here. All of us here value both Monotreme and anon_22′s opinions exceedingly. And, they are both putting forth valid and yet unprovable (not unproven, but unprovable) theses.

In the world of realpolitik, those in charge of some nations really do sometimes have nefarious motives, and depending on the week we can hear some of them stating those motives out loud. Is that happening in this case? Some are going to postulate that China has ill intentions regarding H5N1 and speculate about their seeking post-pandemic trade advantages or the possibility of cashing in on a proprietary vaccine. Once the pandemic emerges, the U.S. will be accused of intentionally letting the 3rd world disappear due to its imperialistic aims. Nobody is going to get out of this one unscathed.

Anon_22′s concerns are valid too. Right now U.S. servicemen in Europe are not allowed to walk around in their free time while wearing their uniforms because they may be in danger from those who link the policies of their country with those particular individuals. I don’t think that when we here criticize China for its policies that any of us are blaming ethnic Chinese people in any way, but anon_22 is right in thinking that there will be some few who will do so, and that’s a valid concern. (Fortunately, I don’t think we’ll have much influence in naming this pandemic anyway and that’s a good thing if you’ve seen some of the names that we’ve come up with here!)

So let’s debate. And let’s figure out how to do that now, on the most prickly questions, because if we can’t do it, there’s little hope that others who are less informed will be able to do better. The tension is only going to rise now, we have to learn to live with it, and maybe model to others who come late to this game how to do so. If we see Monotreme and anon_22, two quite brilliant and thinking scientists, nearly come to blows here, it does not bode well for the neighborhoods of Los Angeles when pandmeic arrives later.

Off my soapbox now, and back to those chickens, dogs, and people who are bleeding from the nose and throat.

Tabby – at 08:40

Well said Pixie!!! A round of BB’s RWFK for everyone. Nevermind the early hour.

DemFromCTat 08:53

Morning observations:

DemFromCTat 08:54

Oh, and as stated on the previous thread:

Watching in Texas – at 09:15

anon_22 - I don’t see a conflict of interest either. I see people with differing viewpoints who believe in what they are saying. I think that the forum would suffer greatly if it lost you or Monotreme or Tom DVM.

There is a reason I come here and not to the other forums. FluWiki has something that, to me, is unique. It just feels like family. It won’t feel like that if we lose valuable posters.

I am not a scientist or a doctor or a scholar. I depend on the expertise of others to get me through this. Somebody has to be around to tell me not to panic;-)

WIT

Goju – at 09:54

I was banned from one Flu site. I was temporarily suspended from another.

I’m an ok kind of guy don’t ya think?

Enough of these posturing posts. We’ve got much more important work ahead of us with an uninformed population that needs us all.

There is an old saying that needs repeating… goes like this…

“when tempers flare, the wise person puts their fists down”

H5N1 it is… call white white and black black. Say it as you see it. Take no offense.

Lets get on with it.

Tom DVM – at 10:24

“Say it as you see it.”

Goju. I think you have hit on the crux of the matter.

That appears to be no longer possible.

It is very difficult to hold you nose and type at the same time.

enza – at 10:36

More importantly, can you hold a glass of the BBRWFK that Tabby is pouring for us and type at the same time?

(sorry. enza will quietly return to her corner now)

anon_22 – at 10:55

Pixie – at 08:05

I don’t think that when we here criticize China for its policies that any of us are blaming ethnic Chinese people in any way, but anon_22 is right in thinking that there will be some few who will do so, and that’s a valid concern.

No, that is not my concern at all.

But thanks for your eloquent post. Point taken.

anon_22 – at 10:56

Pixie, a bit of apology is in order. The China Flu discussion was a red herring, that just happenened to co-incide with this follow up to Monotreme’s posts. One has nothing to do with the other.

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 10:59

Tabby, thanks for not lurking now — welcome!

Goju – at 09:54 I was banned from one Flu site. I was temporarily suspended from another. I’m an ok kind of guy don’t ya think?

Yep!

I hope today takes a positive decisive turn here!

anon_22 – at 10:59

Watching in Texas – at 09:15

I see people with differing viewpoints who believe in what they are saying.

To clarify, this difference in view point is mainly in what constitutes acceptable risk to individuals and their family and friends under certain jurisdictions, which, unfortunately, is extremely difficult to reconcile by debate. But thanks for your kind words!

anon_22 – at 11:03

Goju, and everyone, apologies for these short clarifications, cos I just got in the door. I can’t speak for anyone else, but on this end it has nothing to do with taking offense or flaring tempers or slamming fists. It has to do with risk.

diana – at 11:06
 I don’t know what the offense was.I would like to see the thread in question. I  personally have always thought of H5N1 as the Chinese Flu, it must be more than a bird and beast flu.  Anon 22 is playing with the big boys in her field. You play, and it’s for keeps, though they will indulge a woman.  It can be great and you need the stomach for it. They do play rough. Is anyone in danger over this?  That is not for me or anyone else to say.  I don’t think Ian Fleming  is writing this script from the grave…..While I have a deep respect for the Wiki and what it has done, don’t overestimate its importance ,especially in China. Perhaps the mods have more international standing than I think they have….. The men in power in China are pragmatists and saving face,while not a thing of the past is easy as they don’t care. They simply do whatever they choose to do, and the  welfare of the entire human race isn’t one of their considerations. Staying in power is. Nixon went to China, perhaps it was one of his mistakes.
under the radar – at 11:09

Pixie, thanks, you summed up my thoughts. Personally, I think each person should be able to post what’s on their mind, their opinions, without fear of reprisal. I’ve seen that on other forums, and I think it’s really counterproductive.

I also think it’s offensive that anyone would censor anothers opinion, just because it doesn’t hold with their own, or just because someone else might not like it. This is a free country (USA), so far, at least, and our first amendment is supposed to guarantee free speech.

The mods/owners of this site can do whatever they want on this site, of course, but I think it would be a shame to censor it in any way. I think people all over the world look to the US as a symbol of what they all hope for, freedom. I hate to see them let down, and I hate to see the people of the US let down (at least those who read and participate on Flu Wiki), especially when those who are paying attention these days in the US realize how much risk we are at of losing our freedom, due to recent legislation that has passed.

So, Monotreme, I think you should go ahead and post whatever you want. And anon_22, I think you should go ahead and post what you want. Go ahead and disagree, that’s what’s great about this country, we can do that. But don’t anyone say someone else isn’t entitled to post their opinion. Someone once said, I forget who, and this is paraphrased, ‘I might not agree with what you say, but I would fight to the death for your right to say it.’

anon_22 – at 11:10

Let me re-post one item from the previous thread, to put this in context.

anon_22 – at 11:28

MM,

I’m saying that I will not be moderator of a site that allows unsubstantiated accusations of intent to do harm. Criticism, analysis, opinions, news, even rumours, are welcome. When it comes to allegations or accusations, just be circumspect. Is all I’m saying.

Perhaps that explains things better for some of you. I’m sorry I can’t be more explicit than this, I’m only asking that you read what I write carefully.

anon_22 – at 11:11

under the radar,

Fluwiki is not an exclusively US site. I am not a US citizen, even though I appear to be doing a lot of things for the US community at the moment, May I therefore respectfully ask you to take things from that perspective.

anon_22 – at 11:13

May I ask everyone to please read my post at 11:10 to find out what constitutes ‘censorship’.

under the radar – at 11:14

Hi anon_22, yes, I *was* taking that into consideration. :) Thank you sincerely for what you are doing, by the way. Thanks doesn’t seem like it’s enough, it’s an undertatement for what we owe you.

Bird Guano – at 11:14

anon_22 – at 10:59

Watching in Texas – at 09:15

I see people with differing viewpoints who believe in what they are saying.

To clarify, this difference in view point is mainly in what constitutes acceptable risk to individuals and their family and friends under certain jurisdictions, which, unfortunately, is extremely difficult to reconcile by debate. But thanks for your kind words!


Is the wikie hosted in China ?

This seems like a personal hot-button issue for you.

Do you have personal risk because of viewpoints I post here on the wikie that are critical of China ?

I do business in, and visit China quite a bit myself and don’t share that perception of risk.

To me what occured on the thread in question is blatent censorship and unacceptable to me on a personal level.

DemFromCTat 11:19

Perhaps the mods have more international standing than I think they have…..

Perhaps they do. Perhaps the wiki does. Perhaps it wants to. Perhaps it’s not as much a free speech discussion as a risk assessment discussion. While we all will come down differently on that issue, it is clear from discussions with Monotreme and anon_22 off and online that we all respect that that’s the angle we’re coming from. The last thread is important to read, for those coming late, and the major discussion is over this thread and the language used.

anon_22 – at 11:20

Do you have personal risk because of viewpoints I post here on the wikie that are critical of China ?

No, not with viewpoints, but see my post at 11:10. Thanks!

I do business in, and visit China quite a bit myself and don’t share that perception of risk.

I assume that neither you nor any of your family and friends have Chinese citizenship. I assume also that you have not grown up or lived in such jurisdiction. If my assumptions are correct, then your risk assessment is not adequate for those whose circumstances are different from yours. With respect.

anon_22 – at 11:22

under the radar – at 11:14

Thank you once again for your kind words. They are appreciated!

lugon – at 11:24

Monotreme, if you feel you have to go away for a while, please send us on a close-to-light-speed flight: to you it should feel as a long-enough journey, and to us it should feel as short as a blink of the eye.

Respectfully,

DemFromCTat 11:24

Bird Guano

It isn’t just a concern for anon_22. it’s a larger question of where we want to positon Flu Wiki - partner, antagonist, somewhere in the middle. Not just for China, not just for the US, but for any govenment and also whether the ‘partner’ is the citizens of these countries. The answer may be that, fine, but we do what we do, with a disclaimer at the top that says “this is individual opinion only”.

But even if that’s the answer for now, the question remains a profound and complex one. And it’s our responsibility (mods and posters)to come to grips with it, whether you agree or not.

under the radar – at 11:40

anon_22, it seems like you are saying that there could be risk to people in other countries just from reading what’s on the wiki, is that right? Could you explain? Honestly, I don’t understand. Maybe that isn’t what you were saying at all. I would like to understand.

diana – at 11:41

Monotreme wrote what he felt needed to be noted and under public consideration. I don’t doubt his intentions are motivated by an idealistic view of the greater good. I hope his or her withdrawal is mere regrouping, and getting away to pleasanter pursuits.,for whatever period of time is needed. There are always things that need to be said, and Monotreme said them., even if Anon 22 felt they were offensive to China, or Margaret Chan. A disclaimer is always a good idea in any forum or public venue.

under the radar – at 11:46

I think I might understand. Flu Wiki is not a US site, it is an international site, in fact, it could even be considered a Chinese site, if I’m not mistaken. Therefore, the owners/mods of the site or their families, if they are in China, could be at risk from the government. I am just guessing here, excuse me if I’m off on the wrong track. If that is true, that is something that I think most of us didn’t realize. If that’s the case, I would not post anything that I knew could put anyone at risk for harm, and I don’t think anyone else would either. Even if it meant not speaking our mind fully. I would temper my words in that case. Anon_22, am I correct in my guess?

anon_22 – at 11:50

under the radar – at 11:40

‘’anon_22, it seems like you are saying that there could be risk to people in other countries just from reading what’s on the wiki, is that right? Could you explain?’

I’m sorry, its not people reading the wiki, but specifically those who are associated with the site, aka the mods, aka myself. American or western law accepts the concept of free speech as well as individual responsibility. ie as long as I put a disclaimer that what you say is not my opinion, it is not my opinion. In the context under discussion.

You need to know that notions about responsibility and understanding of whether I do or do not condone opinions on this site can vary significantly under other jurisdictions. Guilt by association is dead in the west. It isn’t in some places.

Under western law, individuals also bear personal responsibility in a different way, so that your grandparents or your business partners, for example, never have to worry about what you are saying or doing. Again that is not necessarily the case in some parts of the world.

You guys are wonderfully naive. I am actually laughing now… Sorry, I just thought you would understand what I was saying…

Bird Guano – at 11:51

anon_22 – at 11:20

I assume that neither you nor any of your family and friends have Chinese citizenship. I assume also that you have not grown up or lived in such jurisdiction.

 If my assumptions are correct, then your risk assessment is not adequate for those whose circumstances are different from yours. With respect. 

False assumptions, but your perception of me is quite interesting none the less.

I’m fully cognizent of the risks and fallout from simple things like reading the “wrong’ website, to citizens of, and even visitors to Communist China.

I really don’t want to get into a pissing contest with you about who knows best vis-a-vis China.

It’s not about you or me.

Suffice it to say I’m fully aware of the ins and outs of Chinsee society and business.

And I think it’s time I took a break from the Wikie as well, if this is going to be the direction in which it’s evolving.

It’s unacceptable to me on a personal level, but that’s just the country boy surfacing above the MBA.

And Dem, I’d vote for “somewhere in the middle” but that’s NOT the trend I’m seeing here.

anon_22 – at 11:52

under the radar – at 11:46

The only thing you are incorrect about is this, FW is definitely not a Chinese site!

LOL

under the radar – at 11:54

Anon_22, I understand now why you can’t even comment anymore on this topic. I feel just sick about this whole thing, and I hope everything is alright with you. I sincerely hope no one else would be held responsible for anything someone else posted on the wiki. Those of us in the US and other relatively free countries take our freedom for granted, and really can barely comprehend not having that freedom. We should be careful in criticizing some governments for the sake of others on the wiki. I’m not even going to qualify that as my opinion. I think it is a sad fact.

anon_22 – at 11:55

BG,

I’m sorry you feel the way you feel. It is not any direction that FW is going. Please consider whether the line that I draw at 11:10 is reasonable. I personally think it is reasonable, but then that’s just me. As I said, I bow to the general wisdom, and, ultimately, the collective decision of all the mods.

anon_22 – at 11:56

under the radar – at 11:54

It is actually not that bad, nor that hard. Again, notice where I draw the line, at my 11:10 post. I believe most people’s conscience can live comfortably with that.

Bird Guano – at 11:57

anon_22 – at 11:55 As I said, I bow to the general wisdom, and, ultimately, the collective decision of all the mods.


As do I.

It’s not my sandbox.

Scaredy Cat – at 11:57

I’m seeing a shifting rationale for the censoring of Monotreme’s thread.

On Nov. 2, early A.M., I suddenly realized that a thread Monotreme started, titled “The Chinese Governments Plot to Hide Their Role in Causing a Pandemic” was no longer on the forum thread list. That was weird, because I had just minutes before read the thread and suddenly it had poof! disappeared. I scrolled up and down, up and down the thread list, certain I must have missed it, but no, I hadn’t. It really was no longer there. Somehow I was able to reopen the thread and post to it by hitting the back button on my computer.

The following is what I wrote, and the answer I received:

02 November 2006

Scaredy Cat – at 02:49

What happened to this thread that Monotreme started?

anon_22 – at 02:53

It was deleted for inappropriate content.

Speculations about conspiracy theories concerning the Chinese government is the fastest one-way ticket to get this site banned for anyone trying to read it from inside their jurisdiction. Please keep comments on this forum non-emotive and non-conspiratorial.

The thread is here.

Monotreme – at 11:58

For all the kind, comments, thanks. Please be assured that I will continue to work towards preparedness and towards doing everthing I can do to mitigate damage from a pandemic. As regards China, I think this is the central issue right now. Comments by Dr. Julie Hall at the WHO and others have made this very clear to me. It is important that pressure be brought to bear on the Chinese government to release all H5N1 information immediately. Failure to accomplish this has the potential to result in the loss of millions of lives. I do not think Flu Wiki will be the best place to accomplish this, unfortunately.

As regards anon_22′s comments at 06:39, I am at a loss. She states things which she knows to be false. I do not know why. I have emails from her which clearly contradict her statements. She knows this. I can only assume she is under a great deal of pressure and feels obliged to say what she is saying. This is the most charitable interpretation I can attribute to her statements.

This is not a matter of my being offended by someone who believes something different than me. This is a matter of a scientist (me) who is over his head in areas for which he was not trained. Normal spats between discussants can be worked out, but I have no idea how to deal with intrigues. I’ve read a few Le Carré novels, but I don’t think that’s enough ;-)

I am considering starting a blog and will let people know if I am able to get this going.

anon_22 – at 11:58

I don;t want anyone to feel they have to be inhibited because of me, please, I really don’t. Just take heed when I say ‘be carefu;’, ok? Pleasse?

Bird Guano – at 12:03

It’s not a conspiracy theory if the body of evidence supports the allegations.

;-/

under the radar – at 12:04

Anon_22, Monotreme, others, this has been an extremely significant thread. It has opened my eyes to things I hadn’t really seen clearly before. People in the US, we should realize that we could lose the freedom of free expression of our thoughts that we take for granted. We could soon lose our freedom to disagree with our government and those powers that be, because we have not been paying attention. Knowing what I know, I am afraid even now of writing this, because I have been paying attention, and I have read the legislation that has been recently signed into law here in this country.We are no longer as free as we think we are. That is a terrifying thought to me, more so that the bird flu, or whatever you want to call it. A little off topic here, But I am serious about what I am saying here.

crfullmoon – at 12:09

we live in interesting times, under the radar, we surely do

:-(

Bird Guano – at 12:10

Similar conditions on information restriction existed during the 1918 pandemic.

crfullmoon – at 12:12

“Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose”, BG. sigh.

anon_22 – at 12:18

Monotreme,

We can engage in he said, she said till the cows come home, and it will be destructive to the Wiki, whether you are right or I am right. I suspect as always that the truth is always going to be somewhere in between. If you genuinely think I lied, I’m sorry that you get that impression, and I genuinely do not think I did. If I’m mistaken in my memory of certain details, as I did not keep our previous emails, then yes, there might have been some misunderstanding there. In that case I sincerely apologise.


As for the thread in question, let me put it this way, and to Scaredy Cat as well,

I apologise for ‘deleting’ the thread on the day that it happened. I put the word ‘deleted’ in quotes because I did not delete it, I saved it so I could discuss it with the other mods. However, since the way to take a thread offline is to use the word ‘delete’ I used that word in the post as well without thinking it might be erroneous. I do again apologise.


What I did immediately was to email yourself, Monotreme, as well as the other mods. It was some hours before Dem could get back to me.

After some discussion, it was decided to put the thread back with a disclaimer. Notice that none of the content was changed.


Subsequent to that, in my post on the previous part of this thread, I made this position clear.

I believe it is possible to say everything that Monotreme is trying to say without accusations implying deliberate intent to harm, which is what the word ‘conspiracy’ means in the Chinese language. If this was a mistake of understanding, then I will respectfully ask you to use a different way of expressing your ideas.

If it was your intention to say that the Chinese government took actions with the intention of harming the rest of the world, I will exercise my prerogative as a moderator to ask you to withdraw this accusation unless you have evidence.

So perhaps I shouldn’t have ‘deleted’ the thread, maybe I should have just ‘closed’ it. Notice though that it is in the mod’s perogative to close or delete threads, but I concede that maybe I could have just closed it while waiting to consult with the other mods.

But here is the gist of my question for you Monotreme,

Do you or do you not intend to say that the Chinese government took actions with regards to the current H5N1 situation and a likely pandemic with the intention of harming the rest of the world? If the answer is yes, then I’m sorry, I cannot let such statements stand on this site while I am moderator.

If the answer is no, then it is very simple, Monotreme, just re-write the thread, tone down the rhetoric, and put this behind us.

That’s all I’m asking.

Is that too much to ask??

If the collective wisdom, and the opinion of the other mods, is that this was an unreasonable stance on my part, then I regretfully and willingly step down right now as moderator.

That, to me, is the central question.

Respectfully yours,

anon_22

diana – at 12:19

Naive? Good god, Look at the Ukranian president at the time candidate of what was it the Orange Party, who was poisoned ,and a handsome man in his prime reduced into a sick ,grey ,lumpy mess. Does anyone say who did it? Of course not. Not expedient. Most here know the loathesome things that happen all over the world. There are conspiracies that are enacted day in and day out. A large portion of what people think is what they have pre-digested for them. For all its flaws, the internet gives people access to news and they make up their minds,(if they have that capacity). To have the wiki handcuffed to Chinese interests or sensibilities would be a travesty. To have people holding back, to have Monetrome holding back, to have anyone at all holding back what they have a basis to speak out on would be a travesty..I still think of that thin young man, with a white shirt and black trousers in front of a Tank in Tianamen Square. I knew someone who barely escaped arrest for taking a photo of another arrest there. A fairly stupid woman. Only a vigorous resistance from those around her saved her from a period in a Chinese jail. No, we know what happens in China.

under the radar – at 12:22

FWIW, I don’t think the Chinese government had the intention of harming the rest of the world.

anon_22 – at 12:25

Monotreme,

There is no intrigue. All the questions are there, in the open, on the post that I just made.

I am spelling out what is or what is not acceptable. You may not agree. That is a difference of opinion.

It is not intrigue.

Bird Guano – at 12:26

Occam’s Razor says in essence.

Don’t attribute to malice, what can be explained away as basic incompetence.

under the radar – at 12:27

I think it is fine, correct, a responsibility, even for us to stand up for what we believe in order to safeguard our freedomes. I don’t think it’s fine for us to do it with the knowledge that it may put others in danger for our actions. Let us criticize our own government, if we wish, but let us not criticize another government when it is not we who have to live there!

anon_22 – at 12:31

Here’s the bottomline, for me, since we have arrived at this spot, which I was most reluctant to get to, publicly.

Someone writes up some conspiracy theory, and he’s ok cos he’s safe, and I have to take the heat.

Well, if that’s what comes with being a mod, it better be a conspiracy theory that I also believe in, cos I’m not willing to be martyr to someone else’s cause, thank you very much.

Edna Mode – at 12:33

I think the contributions to the wiki of both Monotreme and anon_22 are invaluable, and I hope this conflict can be satisfactorily resolved so that the wiki community is able to retain the benefit of both their perspectives going forward. If not, wiki progress on broader goals will, IMO, suffer.

Bird Guano – at 12:34

under the radar – at 12:27

I think it is fine, correct, a responsibility, even for us to stand up for what we believe in order to safeguard our freedomes. I don’t think it’s fine for us to do it with the knowledge that it may put others in danger for our actions. Let us criticize our own government, if we wish, but let us not criticize another government when it is not we who have to live there!


I respectfully and strongly disagree.

Should we have not have critized other governments such as Nazi Germany, Pol Pot’s Cambodia, Somalia and the Darfur humanitarian crisis ?

Pretty soon you go down the slippery PC slope of not standing for anything of substance because you may offend or endanger a 3rd party.

I’m sorry but I’m not under the illusion that I hold that much power in the world.

I dismiss your assertion with malice !

anon_22 – at 12:35

under the radar – at 12:27

but let us not criticize another government when it is not we who have to live there!

No, you should definitely criticize other governments where criticism is due. Criticism eg I think that the Chinese government should be more forecoming with sharing samples, is fine. Accusations eg the Chinese government is doing this on purpose to…. without significant evidence, is very dubious at the best of times, and is unacceptable here.

As I said, this is important, I don;t want to stifle debate. There is a lot to criticise the Chinese and other governments for. Credit and criticism where each is due, is all I;m saying. And when it is controversial, and you do not have very good evidence, you can still say it but tone it down, is all I’m saying.

Pixie – at 12:35

May I make some practical suggestions that will not in any way end this debate (as it is a debate for our time, not just for the Fluwiki) but may help.

If we are posting opinions that are potentially very, very, harsh, it is easy enough to render those opinions a little harder to follow by those who do not speak English as a native language. Everyone here is a terrific writer, but we don’t always have to be so clear in our writing.

If you are saying something that may be considered inflamatory to a foreign party, there are a couple of ways to make what you are saying less clear to someone offshore translating it, while still keeping it quite clear to most of us here at Fluwikie. Techniques I have used in this circumstance (and I DO use them) include:

You get the idea. You can have it both ways - still say what you want and have it circulate the globe - with just a few adjustments to how you say it. We here will still get the idea, those elsewhere won’t be quite sure what you said. There is actual and on-the-ground danger associated with repressive regimes - that is not just a figment of anon_22′s imagination.

Those suggestions above may sound kinda simple, but they do the trick and can let us have most of our cake and eat it too. IMHO, the harshest opinions directed at repressive regimes are useful for strategizing and focusing our energy (and I for one want to hear those opinions), but they are dismissed and acted upon in a manner opposite to the way we want by the regimes in question if we hit them with a 2 X 4 anyway. I have a 13yo, and dealing with a repressive regime and needling and cajoling them into doing what you want, and into doing the right thing, is kind of like dealing with one of them. Keep that visual in your mind if you want a repressive regimie to actually do anything. So, for our purposes of defining our arguments and focus, yes, we need to hear even the harshest opinions. In terms of actually moving the parties in question, the harshest opinions will be walked away from anyway. So, it does no harm to use your best pig Latin.

I’m not sure, though, if I will have any suggestions for how to post and word one’s argument if the unsubstantiated accusations of intent to do harm start flying against our English-speaking governments. The one thing I am certain about, though, is that they will, at some point, start flying. We’ll revisit that conversation about unlimited free speech and its consequences then too. Honestly, my personal opinion is that I don’t think we will have to worry about that here (repression and harsh consequences) in the same way that those living under some regimes have to worry about it on a day-to-day basis. But give it 5 minutes and someone will take the contrary position on that too. (Thas al I hav 2 sey noow!)

observer – at 12:37

Unfortunate, because everyone is sure they are right and finds no commonground this experiment falls prey to the same crisis that have brought down families, organizations and govenments.

I came here because here seemed a responsible group. Here away from the shouting and rash claims of other forums on the topic. Here seemed a group focused on the positive. Here you have succumbed to the worse fear we all face - turning on each other. I have seen it on threads before. And I said unfortunate.

Unfortunate for those who are here and for those yet to come. I love freedom of speech beyond which I can or will explain - I also was taught by my wise father that it carries responsibility. He knew this better than most on the wiki - he lived it both ways (free and opressed).

Unfortunate because either way now I may need to seek other places where people choose a constuctive path or maybe I will simply focus on what I know…I have a resonsibility to my family and doing what is right. Its not about me - its about all of us.

anon_22 – at 12:39

Pixie – at 12:35

Thank you! I absolutely agree.

Bird Guano – at 12:40

Edna Mode – at 12:33

I think the contributions to the wiki of both Monotreme and anon_22 are invaluable, and I hope this conflict can be satisfactorily resolved so that the wiki community is able to retain the benefit of both their perspectives going forward. If not, wiki progress on broader goals will, IMO, suffer.


I agree on the value of the contributions of each Edna.

But how does one balance two VERY opposing views on personal freedoms ?

That is the essence of the decisions the mods will have to make, and it’s not an easy one.

In a modern and open civilized society, one could agree to disagree and move on, but we’re not talking modern civilized societies here.

We’re talking one mindset of freedom and open expression (even of the fringe), and another of obsessive control and repression of individual freedoms.

Sadly, I’m not sure that is a conflict that CAN be resolved.

under the radar – at 12:42

Anon_22, I for one, apologize. We just didn’t understand. I shouldn’t speak for others, but I think others must feel the way I do. I would feel exactly the way you do if I were in your shoes.

That being said, Monotreme, I pretty much agree with what you said. I don’t think the Chinese government had the intention of harming the world, though, if that is what you were saying.

I think there is a lot that we are not privy to, regarding the goings on in the world. I think we should just stick to what we’re trying to accomplish here on this site. We all just want to live through the bird flu, right, and we want as many others as possible to do the same.

So we prep, we help others prep. We gether information, as best as we can, and we share the information. We express our feelings and our fears, and gain solace from each other. We have the same goals and intentions. Lets not be be mad or have hurt feelings anymore. Lets just carry on from here and change the subject.

anon_22 – at 12:42

observer,

What you are saying is precisely why I am engaging in this lengthy and painful debate. It is not an easy path, but I truly believe, as Pixie said, that we can have it both ways. Really I do. Just bear with us while we work at this. It is painful but it be worth it.

diana – at 12:44

Pixie, your suggestion reminds me of the translations we get now and then, and can never figure out to anyones satisfaction, or an art critic who can write endlessly on say,a painting of white on white.But in the end no one reading it will get any value from it.

under the radar – at 12:48

Bird Guano, you make such an excellent point in 12:34. I hadn’t really thought of it that way, See, this is what I love, great debate.

Pixie at 12.35, good idea! That is something I will do, that I hadn’t thought of either!

Observer, I agree.

Bird Guano – at 12:48

diana – at 12:44

Pixie, your suggestion reminds me of the translations we get now and then, and can never figure out to anyones satisfaction, or an art critic who can write endlessly on say,a painting of white on white.But in the end no one reading it will get any value from it.


I’m still trying to decipher her original post.

LOL

Bird Guano – at 12:52

Whatever the outcome of this discussion is, I do hope the moderators post their decisions in a separate thread so it’s not buried here amongst the noise.

Personally I’m done with this thread, of which many of you are probably thankful.

under the radar – at 12:53

LOL!

diana – at 12:53

Is it what they call doublespeak. I used to call it goooblygook.

DemFromCTat 12:54

turning on each other.

Frankly, i don’t see that at all. we’re having a grown-up discussion in grown-up terms about a grown-up issue. What comes from this will be good. We will add a disclaimer to the threads that says, in effect,

The opinions expressed here reflect those of the individual posters, and are not those of the editors of Flu Wiki.

For those who have not thought about the issue, this is an education. For those who have not thought about how we would deal, for example, with the issue of rationing when it becomes more than abstract, this, too is an education.

Please understand anon_22 and I are not asking you to avoid controversial topics so much as to be educated as to what make something inflammatory, and be careful when you choose to be deliberately inflammatory. Just like talking to someone in person, that could have consequences.

There are things Flu Wiki is not. We are not a political site and our ability to put pressure on entites is real but limited. There has never been complete free speech here or at any moderated site - we have discussed that since our origins. We depend on participant’s self-retraint much more than our moderation, and for the most part that has worked beautifully for the community. We are simply suggesting more of the same.

c3jmp – at 12:58

so…. folks are concerned about text filters on port 80 traffic? ie, it’s not about endorsing an idea or policy, it’s about avoiding certain types of words or phrases that may trip a filter and result in getting the site banned in an ACL somewhere on a core router for a country/state/whatever? something like that? Americans do take their speech for granted - more so when blogging from home, in the privacy. then the folks that sit behind the router no longer have access to the site - regardless what it contains, or endorses.. and more people die in the end, because they had no source to learn about the disease from. seems like there have been news items over the last few years about countries that restricted access to content - one country comes to mind immediately. somewhere in there? or maybe i’ll go back to lurking..

DemFromCTat 13:03

c3jmp – at 12:58

That’s part of my worry, yes.

Thread getting long… will close and open a new one.

diana – at 13:05

C3mp…. What type of words or phrases would trip a filter and get a site banned. What phrases. It becomes more and more interesting. An Alice in Wonderland, Into the Looking Glass World.

Goju – at 13:07

I think, IMHO… that H5N1 is the result of neccessity and greed.

We gotta eat and it gotta be cheap.

I hold private business and the gov that support overpoplulated, non bio safe mammal and poultry farms responsible. I hold any person or organisation responsible that witholds information needed to wag war on H5N1… or to help us protect ourselves. They know who they are. I hold the present World admins responsible for spending an unbelievable amout of money on their pet projects and agendas and not on Virus research and Vax manufacturing capability (am I sounding like GR?)

i hold all of us on the flu boards responsible for uncovering the truth about the science, treatment and tracking of H5N1 as well as holding each other up in these fast approaching dark times.

We need each other … every one of us… to help get our families through the other side.

Being a Mod is not an easy task. i am listed as a mod on another site and i never once used that power to modify nor delete anyones post. If someone disagreed… let them say so publicly and let the debate begin. Once enough has been said, the thread naturally dissapears.

There was an instance last year of a poster living in China. He one day dissapeared from posting… needless to say, we all thought he had just “dissapeared” as is an accepted way of gov control in some parts of the world. Well, he didn’t. He was just moving back to the states…. but the thought and threat did exist.

We all need to take responsibility of our words. You know when they will be taken harshly. You have the power over the “Post” button. Words can kill or heal.

As my grandfather said to me many years ago, “once the words leave your mouth, they are no longer yours”.

PS - I got really pissed when a mod removed my post one day on another site because they didn’t think it was appropriate.

KimTat 13:10

I have been born and raised in the midwest. I am naive, there is no doubt. I’m naive in my own little corner of the world let alone in the big bad world. Those of us in the USA, come on..we know what other countries think of us in a “general term” we are all a like, controlling…brash, outspoken.

We believe what we were taught in school and have an attitude of idealism that really doesn’t fit the reality of our own lives. I think those of us here are evem more idealistic then most in the general population. We ARE trying to save the world or just our own neighborhoods. How many of us have walked away dejected, amazed that other people are not seeing what we so clearly see.

 We talk about the CDC and the WHO not being forthcoming on details, that the MSM is in cahoots with government officials and other PTB to suppress much needed data that would help to inform and protect the masses. 

Do I believe this…yes and no. To believe and embrace that completely would make me ahh.mmm NUTS because I don’t think every newspaper can be controlled. Can they? Am I being Naive again?

I went to school with a russian doctor some years back, he left before the wall came down. He had to leave all documentations behind and start out from scratch here in the states in his mid 40′s. It was a major frustration for him and his wife and daughter but he was still better off here then back home, he had family still over there and he was very caustious of his attitude to continue to protect them. I don’t want to imagine the daily fear he had of reprisal of his family, its not something I can truley comprehend and hopefully will never have too.

enza – at 13:36

Pixie—I have a 13yo, and dealing with a repressive regime and needling and cajoling them into doing what you want, and into doing the right thing, is kind of like dealing with one of them.

I hear you—great suggestions. BTW I have one of those (13yo) I know what you mean ;-) Seriously, it’s for them and their cohorts (who are most at risk) why I’m here. I may or may not survive when the fan strts, but I hope all my kids make it through and remember me as someone who did evething she possibly could to mitigate the damage that panflu will bring.

Retrieved from http://www.fluwikie2.com/index.php?n=Forum.AskQuestionsOfTheModeratorsHereXVII
Page last modified on November 04, 2006, at 01:36 PM