OK, I’m a little confused by what I’ve read on another forum group about whether to give aspirin to either an adult or a child with the flu — regular or worse (the flu that is).
I have cats not kids, so it’s something I never had to worry about, but it seems that aspirin under certain circumstances in kids can cause Reyes Syndrome. So I don’t really need to know about that, although someone else might.
What I need to know is, after the 5 bottles of aspirin I’ve bought that I’m already using (the won’t go to waste) can I use them on adults with any kind of flu??
Hi I’m workin’ on it. The answer to your question is DEFINTELY NO!! Aspirin should not be used in the same sentence with flu because the use in young people and children can cause Reye’s syndrome, I believe a condition that causes death most of the time.
The best way I have found to avoid the problem is to remove any chance of it happening by not trying to mix treatments depending on age.
There are effective alternatives including advil and acetominophen, although there can be side-effects here as well. These side effects would in large part be avoided by oral electrolyte solutions or adequate hydration when ill.
As far as pets go, acetominophen should not be used. I would suggest asking your veterinarian at your pets next check-up to determine the best course of action in respect to H5N1.
By the way, great question!!
acetominophen is lethal to cats - it converts a large part of their hemoglobin in a way which cannot carry oxygen to body tissues.
I’m with Tom on this.
How do you guys feel about ibuprophen?
I don’t use asprin because kids/Reyes Syndrome concerns. My son has a bone disease that causes him episodes of pain and his doctor (Oncologist at Vanderbilt) just swears by ibuprophen says its safer than actementiphen-though my son does get an occasional blood test just to check on things. We’ve given him, under this doctors supervision far more ibuprophen than I ever would have on my own and he’s responding very well. As a result, we take it more than we have in past for headaches, minor aches pains etc, and have not had anyproblems. I wonder how it would be in relation for flu? or animals-in a pinch-I’m thinking mostly of a small German shephard with a tendancy towards displasia?
Dr. Woodson in his guide also warns against giving ibuprofin to children, because it is an aspirin-like drug. This is news to me because I have always given my kids children’s ibuprofin, and there are great quantities of children’s ibuprofin products (in many yummy flavors) at the store. So anybody know the deal with ibuprofin and children?
Tom DVM – at 10:24 “The answer to your question is DEFINTELY NO!!”
You lost me. IWOI’s question is “What I need to know is … can I use them on adults with any kind of flu??” and IWOI also states “I have cats not kids”.
Is there some reason to not use aspirin for an adult with the flu?
Hot and bothered. Annon 22 would be better to answer this …but I don’t think that Reyes syndrome affects adults.
My point was the best way to avoid slip ups and inadvertently giving children aspirin by mistake, is not to consider it in the treatment of flu at all…especially since there are,in my opinion, better alternatives.
Here is a good article from The National Reye’s Syndrome Foundation.
They indicate that children under 19 should not use aspirin or salicylate compounds. A list of other medicines with these ingredients is listed.
“Some medication labels may use the words acetylsalicylate, acetylsalicylic acid, salicylic, salicylamide, phenyl salicylates, etc., instead of the word aspirin. There is not data as to other forms of salicylate other than aspirin associated with the development of Reye’s Syndrome, but until further research has answered this question, we recommend products listing these substances not be used at all in children and adolescents, because a virus may already be present before symptoms appear. Product ingredients may be reformulated periodically, so always check the label. When in doubt ask your doctor or pharmacist.”
While I like most of Dr. Woodson’s advice, I have to disagree with him on ibuprofin. Maybe it’s in some medical journal somewhere to avoid it, but my ped has certainly never advised against it (and he has definitely warned us about aspirin - NEVER give it to kids!). I give my kids children’s Motrin all the time. It works well against fevers and pain. It is an anti-inflamatory so it is also good for pulled/strained muscles as that causes the muscles to inflame. If a child is battling a particularly bad fever that is tough to keep down, you can alternate giving ibuprofin with acetominephen every 2 hours.
Also, be careful with some stomach meds like Peptobismol and Imodium. The adult versions and older versions have aspirin and therefore should NEVER be given to kids. They both now have children’s versions so buy carefully.
Does anyone know what is most effective against fevers in adults? Aspirin vs the other two? I only take aspirin for really bad headaches - for whatever reason it seems to tackle the pain best. But I always take Advil for fevers. Any pharmacists out there know the answer?
Pharmacologically, there is no reason you aren’t able to give aspirin to ADULTS with the flu (with the exception that it is a gastric irritant, and will make nausea worse, as will ibuprofen). Aspirin is a no-no for all kids/adolescents with fever (as mentioned Reyes’ Syndrome).
From a safety standpoint, Tylenol (acetaminophen) is much safer than aspirin (presuming no liver dysfunction) for users of all ages.
Keep in mind that only very high fever should be treated at all >102F - mild fevers are best left alone and not masked. In fact, some research suggests that a fever helps the body erradicate infection.
I have no worry about giving ibuprofen to children. I always gave it to my child.
Here is a reference to ibuprofen and aspirin from Children’s Hospital in Seattle. This is also a good site on which to find other info re children!
“Give acetaminophen (e.g. Tylenol) or ibuprofen (e.g. Advil) for fevers above 102°F (39°C), if your child is uncomfortable. The goal of fever therapy is to bring the temperature down to a comfortable level. Remember, the fever medicine usually lowers the fever by 2 to 3°F.
Avoid aspirin. (Reason: risk of Reye’s syndrome, a rare but severe brain disease)”
http://www.seattlechildrens.org/child_health_safety/health_advice/fever.asp
Hi. Our vet has me give BUFFERED aspirin to an older, stiff dog. You have to search the shelves for this but apparently the buffering is important. I keep the aspirin with the dog stuff so teens don’t get it.
Somewhere on fluwiki I read about treating high fever with alternating ibuprofen and Tylenol — because then a med can be given every two hours — but the writer also cautioned that a written log should be kept of what was given when because an overdose of either can be very bad.
On my link above, you have to click “Treat at Home” to get the info re ibuprofen and aspirin.
My peditrician and the oncologist have both advised alternating acetaminiphen and ibuprofen for fevers over 102. I did find out that when I had a bout of food poisoning and had severe headache I couldn’t keep the ibuprophen tablets down, but I could keep down the liquid childrens Motrin we had. That might come in handy treating flu patients with upset stomachs.
Thanks for tip on buffered asprin.
“My peditrician and the oncologist have both advised alternating acetaminiphen and ibuprofen for fevers over 102″
Only when either entity alone (and non-pharmacological treatments, such a cold compresses and tepid baths) is ineffective.
1. Try Tylenol 2. Try Ibuprofen 3. Try both
If you aren’t able to control the fever with these, you need medical attention
My question about aspirin and ibuprofin is that both exacerbate bleeding. In a disease such as H5N1 flu which can cause serios bleeding problems, should these drugs be used?
I was not familiar with Reye’s Syndrome until reading about it in this thread. I have raised two children into adulthood and now again two small kids in my household… Whenever high fever afflicted anyone, I used a European suppository called Perdolan (Janssen-Cilag), a mixture of 200mg aspirin, 200 mg paracetamol, and 46 mg coffein. This is the dosage for adults but they have paediatric dosages as well. It works very efficiently ! I got through a ten-day very high fever episode in Africa thanks to Perdolan every four hours. I knew doctors frowned on using these kinds of combination medicines, but for me, it is the efficiency that counts. I will now stop using this stuff forever. Thanks for the info.
RPh- thanks for the clarification, I meant when either was ineffective alone, you could alternate the two. I’ve only had to do that just a few times with my children-or myself for that matter.
I think asprin will exacerbate bleeding quicker than ibuprophen. My son had to have blood count drawn to make sure the large amounts of ibuprophen he was getting was not causing any internal bleeding-ulcers and intestinal bleeding were the concern, but it was every six months and done more as a routine check-but he is very young-teens, with no history of any bleeding problems. I’m thinking for a relitivly quick illness like flu-as opposed to a chronic one, Ibuprophen would be ok. I would be hesitant to give asprin for flu if there were bleeding problems involved. Maybe someone who knows more about this can offer thier opinions? Thanks
Gary. I am a veterinarian but since no one else has answered you question I will give you my impression. Aspirin and Ibuprofen will not cause excessive bleeding when used for short term treatments.
I believe that in a sense, their treatment effect is additive which means you have to be on it for a while before significant bleeding effects occur. Moderate treatments for less than five days should not cause significant differences in clotting time.
Maybe annon 22 or JV or one of the other human medical people can comment and agree of disagree. It has been a while since I was in pharmacology class so they should have the final word.
Thanks for bringing up an important issue.
All---go back and re-read IWOI’s opening post. No kids. He/she is asking can I use them on adults with any kind of flu?
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 07:44 --- Last year, I had the seasonal flu. Twice. After getting my shots. So, after suffering the first bout, the second time around my wife took me to the emergency clinic at 9pm wit a fever of 103 degrees. The doctor diagnosed me with flu, and sent me home with this advice: “Beginning when you get home, take two Tylenol. 4 hours later, take 2 Excedrin tablets. Again, in four hours, take two Tylenol. Repeat until the fever breaks.”
BTW—I’m an adult. Have been for way too many years… ;-)
At about 6am the next morning, I woke up in a soaking wet bed, feeling much better, and my fever had gone down to about 99 degrees.
Now, this isn’t for kids, and I’m not associated with any makers of any pharmaceuticals in any way. Just my two cents…
Hi BroncoBill. The thing is that because parents are often panicked when they are treating their children, sometimes they act without thinking. Giving aspirin by mistake to a child creates a significant risk…
…so one way to handle it is to apply the KISS principle…take aspirin out of the loop for treating influenza, use on of the many effective alternatives, and then there is no chance of it being given inadvertently to a child or a grandchild by mistake.
Aspirin and NSAIDs (like ibupropen) will increase bleeding time. They both reduce the clotting action of platelets. Aspirin is much more of a concern for bleeding, but still, NSAIDs can increase bleeding time. Therefore, it is not a good idea to give them to someone when planning a surgery in the near future, or someone who may possibly bleed from a disease. My son had a concussion a while ago, and the pediatrician said not to even give him ibuprofen because of a concern he might bleed inside his brain.
For the flu in general, I would use ibuprofen if I wanted to (for kids too). Considering the possibility of bleeding with this bird flu, personally, I will not be giving either aspirin or ibuprophen to my family. I have reconsidered this situation. I don’t think it is worth the worry. I think it would be better to be safe than sorry. Others may decide differently. Considering we may have no medical help at all, it is probably best to err on the side of total caution. Tylenol can work pretty well to reduce a fever if you have to.
Here are a couple of links to articles on aspirin and NSAIDs:
Aspirin Pharmacodynamics:
- irreversibly acetylates and inactivates cyclo-oxygenase: enzyme responsible for conversion of membrane arachidonic acid to prostaglandin endoperoxides and thromboxane A2
- platelets lack nuclear machinery to replenish enzyme so platelets are affected for their lifespan
- platelet release inhibited and platelet aggregation impaired
- clinically translates into a prolonged bleeding time and potential for bleeding during surgical procedures for up to 8 days after last dose of aspirin.
From Mayo Clinic:
Medicines like ibuprofen (NSAIDs) will prolong bleeding time, and they are a consideration when treating someone with a disease or problem where increased bleeding is not desireable.
Okay. The only reason I posted was that from the get-go, this thread took off in the wrong direction for more than 10 posts. Was just trying to get it back to answer IWOI’s original question…
Thanks JV and BB.
Does anyone know what impact ibuprofen/aspirin could ahve with someone lacking a slpeen? Dh had his out years ago so I am very paranoid about illnesses with him anyway. Luckily his doc last year made him get a pneumonia vax because not having a spleen puts you more at risk. From what I am reading dh should only take tylenol if H2H and he gets it?
lauraB – at 19:14 --- Definitely talk to his doctor on that one…
lauraB -
I have looked all over the Internet re giving aspirin or ibuprofen to patients without spleens. I found nothing.
I did find all kind of guidelines re prevention and treatment of infection (vaccines, antibiotics, etc.).
Considering I think (IMHO)it would be wise for all people to stay away from aspirin (and probably ibuprofen) if they think they might have H5N1 flu (considering those medicines may cause increased bleeding), I would just think it would be wise for your husband too. I do not personally know a lot about splenectomy patients. You or your husband should talk to his doctor to make sure you have a list of all medicines he should not take. Sorry I could not help more.
BroncoBill, you’re right — the thread took on a ‘slant’ of it’s own! :-)
I’m certainly glad that it did though, because we not only got help for people WITH kids, but for me too!
Thanks soooooo much for posting what you were told in the ER! That helps tremendously & FOR MY HOME WITHOUT HUMAN KIDS I’m going to write that down on one of my ‘flash cards’ I’m making to holepunch and put together with a ring so you can flip through easily & also hang above the sick bed. Sorta my crip notes for illness.
Another thing I’m going to do ( and certainly Tom and others are right about this) the best thing to do for homes WITH HUMAN CHILDREN is to make aspirin off limits. So what I’m going to do here is simply take a magic marker & write in BIG letters on all the aspirin bottles in my home, ‘DO NOT GIVE TO CHILDREN’ so that if, for some currently unknown reason pops up that I should have sick children in my home, I’ll not panic & give them the first thing that would seem the most effective in my mind.
Thanks everyone for the discussion — and for BroncoBill for figuring out that I needed a different slant on the info being provided!!!
Tylenol/Excedrin - In Canada, at least, both are actually the same medicinal ingredient, namely acetaminophen (Excedrin adds a touch of caffeine to help increase the rate of absorption), so it doesn’t make much sense to alternate those two.
In the US, Excedrin has both acetaminophen and ASA (with caffeine), so again, it makes no therapeutic sense to alternate this with plain Tylenol.
Both Aspirin and ibuprofen inhibit platelet aggregation via Cox-1 inhibition (see JV’s post). I have personally seen excessive bruising/bleeding in as few as 5 doses in sensitive people.
Influenza doesn’t usually cause bleeding on its own, rather this is often attributed to ASA/ibuprofen use during treatment. From this perspective, ASA is perfectly fine for treatment of fever due to the flu.
As was mentioned before, there are “hidden” sources of ASA that may be consumed concurrently with antipyretics, namely ENO and PEPTO-BISMOL (both contain salicylates, from which Aspirin is derived).
A couple of side-effects to note: Pepto-Bismol turns your tongue black, and ASA in high doses causes tinnitus (ringing in the ears).
Tylenol is still your safest choice, followed by ibuprofen, then aspirin.
Question- can you use acetaminiphen beyond its expy date? Is the date a writen in stone do not use one day past- or is it ok to use if it had been stored in a cool spot and hasn’t crumbled/discolored? Thanks
Green Mom – at 10:50
For most (99%) of medications, the expiry date is the date before which the company can guarantee that there is still at least 90% remaining potency of their medication.
For the most part, the medication is still good well beyond the expiry date, but the companies don’t want to spend the extra money to prove that to the FDA/HPB whatever, so they prove it to usually 2–4 years.
One major exception is liquid medication. Because these are usually in a sugary medium, they are prone to bacterial growth, and therefore stabilizers are used to inhibit it. Again, the expiry date on liquids represent the date before which (unopened) it loses 10% of its potency (see above). However, if you don’t want to start drinking bacterial cultures, I recommend open bottles be replaced within 6 months of opening.
Keep all medication in a dry cool (room temperature) place. A bedroom drawer or linen closet is a good choice. Never store medication in the bathroom or kitchen (very high humidity and usually heat).
For OTCs like Tylenol, ASA, etc. I would take it confidently for up to 6 months after it “expires”.
ASA degrades faster than Tylenol and makes a vinegary smell (converts to Acetic acid). If the smell is overpowering, it’s time for a fresh batch.
Compile and wikiize, please! Or is this on the wiki already?
Use canned tuna…the mercury in it will kill the bird flu..
There may be some confusion as to why I suggested no aspirin or ibuprofen for H5N1 flu. I only suggested that because of the tendency for some patients with H5N1 to end up with bleeding problems and cytokine storm. Aspirin and ibuprofen would increase that bleeding. If a person has either the seasonal flu, or a mild case of H5N1 flu, without those complications, then those medicines should be of no problem, but there is no telling how the course of the H5N1 flu will end up. I felt it would be more safe than sorry to avoid those medicines. Aspirin can cause more bleeding problems than ibuprofen, but they still work the same way. It depends on the risk you want to take. Some people may choose to take that risk. I am just suggesting a way to be most cautious. There may be no medical care for the majority of patients with H5N1. I feel that every small thing that could help is important.
I have read in a couple of articles where aspirin was avoided when a patient was thought to possibly have H5N1 flu. Here is one article: http://tinyurl.com/h3fud
On page 7 of this article (their page 195), they show in a flow chart that if a patient is thought to have flu-like symptoms (ILI), and is suspected to have H5N1, then aspirin is avoided in their care.
Sorry, I am anonymous above.
Am debating if I am coming down with something, eyes hurt and are burning. Will check in the mirror first to make sure its not conjunctivitis, and then my purse to make sure I have my indian cure. Lomatium. Wouldn’t use my tamiflu if it is a virus. Driving to spend a few days away, and then another trip, so I better not be coming down with anything. Will stop at a CVS on the way and load up. Maybe allergies. This is how its going to be if we are isolated. Minor symptoms will be watched, and we will be dosing ourselves as each reveals itself. How many times have you felt fine and then a half hour later you are sick as a pup.Time to get a new bottle of asperin.
Still don’t know, but canceled out anyway. Disppointed someone but better to become sick at home,if indeed I am coming down with something.
JV, that’s an important consideration, I’ll note that too, on my bottles of aspirin and let each adult decide (beforehand) what they wish to do.
Lily, I’m soooo sorry you’re ill, please get rest and fluids! Maybe you can reschedule the trip with your friend.
Lily - don’t know where you live, but it sounds like allergies to me. Take a couple of Benadryl - if you feel better in a couple of hours, you nailed it.
Don’t use Tamiflu - influenza doesn’t typically involve the eyes first and foremost (although it can be a mild symptom).
Conjunctivitis doesn’t usually occur suddenly in the absence of other irritants (corneal scratch or what-have-you).
Likely, allergies. (Trees are going full bore right now).
JV Many thanks for the info. You confirmed my suspicions about aspirin and ibuprofin. I’ll avoid them should there be any question of bird flu. One other question (and perhaps this is not the proper thread for it) is it wise to take medicines that one thinks will strengthen the immune system to, hopefully, ward off bird flu? I’ve seen this advocated on other threads, usually, by women hoping to protect their children. Leaving aside the question of the effacacy of these measures, if a cytokine storm is a suspected cause of the high mortality of young, otherwise healthy people, is it wise to take measures to enhance their immune systems to prevent bird flu?
JV Many thanks for the info. You confirmed my suspicions about aspirin and ibuprofin. I’ll avoid them should there be any question of bird flu. One other question (and perhaps this is not the proper thread for it) is it wise to take medicines that one thinks will strengthen the immune system to, hopefully, ward off bird flu? I’ve seen this advocated on other threads, usually, by women hoping to protect their children. Leaving aside the question of the effacacy of these measures, if a cytokine storm is a suspected cause of the high mortality of young, otherwise healthy people, is it wise to take measures to enhance their immune systems to prevent bird flu?
Must have been allergies. We have had tropical torrential rains for days now. Probably why joints ached. Took Benedryl, felt better quickly, eustachian tubes clogged up also. But this is why is is so difficult. Symptons that are general can be so many different things. Doctors are trained to do differential. I do them on myself since I have been immersed in medicine for quite some time. Mothers do it often on their children. Women try to nip things in the bud as far as illness goes, but men tend to tough things out, and let it get a bit furthere along before they complain about anything. My little problem was nipped in the bud, so I’m free to do what I want without thinking I’ll make someone else sick.
Gary -
An inhanced immune response is what cytokine storm is. This is the reason why many believe that people in the prime of life who contract H5N1 have a higher death rate…because they have a better immune response, which will then cause cytokine storm.
The question is really what medicine can a person take to quiet or reverse the cytokine storm that accompanies the H5N1 flu. When I first started to study H5N1 about 2 years ago, I looked at all the literature to see what would work for cytokine storm. Steroids were studied. NSAIDs (like ibuprofen)were studied. The only thing I could find that really worked was OX40:Ig. This is made by Xenova. I have not heard that is is out of trials yet. It seems to be a miraculous drug. See this Xenova site: http://tinyurl.com/ergky . Other than this medicine, I have not heard of any treatment suggested to be a true help against the cytokine storm.
I am not an immunologist. So, this is my limited knowledge. If some researcher has more recent info, please help us all.
bump
Gary – at 10:25
Leaving aside the question of the effacacy of these measures
LOL. You can’t leave that aside and then ask for logical advice. ;-)
Virtually none of the advocated therapies has been shown to do much of anything in real time settings (see sites like Natural Standard or check our wiki alternative therapy section, including the general section (what really works?). Some make more sense than others based on limited data. Some are certainly safer than others. Most assume a better understanding of the immune system than we have.
I’m not advocating for anything other than evidence-based information. But first, do no harm (the theme of this thread). Second, accept the answer “we don’t really know” re immune building. Third, interpret that as “we don’t know if we should” as much as “we don’t know if we should not”. In the end, the Flu Wiki recommends checking with your doctor and doesn’t purport to be the source of your medical advice (sorry, obligatory disclaimer). We’re the encyclopedia… the place to start your research, not end it.
JV - thanks for the spleen info. I’ll definitely have dh talk with his doc. I am also going to stock up on more Tylenol to be cautious.
Here’s a big pill to swallow.
OK, I’m prepping right? And I’m laying low, not making a big fuss, just spending dh’s money for supplies & feeling good. Got my lists, got basics, got beyond basics, and part of my plan included getting us pneumonia shots & update our Tetnus & then get flu shots in the Fall. I even read up ahead of time what side effects to watch for — slight soreness & redness around the needle site and maybe a little swelling. More serious side effects had to do with constricted breathing.
So I got the appointments for us (dh had taken off work to finish kitchen cabinet installation) and off we went. Tetnus in left shoulder, pneumonia in the right — it stung.
We head home & in a couple of hours my muscles in my arm start hurting. Another hour & they’re REALLY hurting. Couple of more hours & my arm has a ‘temperature’ and is still aching even worse. The doc said if I had muscle soreness just take an Advil or something, so I did. Didn’t touch the pain. I felt like I’d tried to stop a speeding freight train by holding out my arm & failed! It got to where I couldn’t really bend or move my arm without excrutiating pain and it was sore to touch from my elbow to my shoulder. By suppertime, my arm is totally useless and it’s swelling and I’m feeling like an invalid, wondering how on earth I’d make it through a Pandemic with this kind of pain & not being able to use one arm?
You could put your hand NEAR my arm and feel the heat rolling off it from the fever going on there and when I stood with my arm at my side and looked in the mirror to compare it to the ‘good’ arm my swollen arm looked like it was melting down over my elbow it had so much trauma going on; the skin seemed to just be sagging like a water balloon! And there were red blotches all around the swollen area, which basically affected the back and side of my arm above the elbow — red smooth blotches, no itching, just PAIN!
So the rest of the night, I had it wrapped in an ice pack and propped up on pillows — if you don’t already know this, if you put Dawn dishwashing detergent in a ziplock baggie and drop that bag down inside another baggie just for safety from spills, and freeze it, it makes a wonderfully squishy ice wrap that molds easily to whatever body part you need to put it on and BOY does it stay cold! I figured this condition seemed to be moving down my arm and if it moved down to my fingers they’d explode or something gross like that so propping it up had to help. And it did.
I felt just miserable from the discomfort and ache, and so I went to bed with my arm propped up on a pillow and got up about 4 times in the night, taking aspirin each time. By this morning, it was much better, but still awful looking, but I felt like I was on the mend. Now it’s noon & it’s slightly sore to bend, I can lift my elbow above shoulder level which I couldn’t do yesterday, and the remaining swelled area fits in the palm of my hand — still hot, still red, but it’s down to that size now, all around the back and side of my arm so I guess I’m going to live.
Now keep in mind that I’ve never even had the regular flu — I’ve always been extremely lucky with my health, but I know that I am somewhat sensitive to some medications — for instance the non-drowsy stuff might still make me sleep, or whatever is wrong has worn me out so easily that once I get some medical relief, I just crash & sleep.
Anyway, all that kept going through my mind was all of you here dealing with stomach flu this week, and discussing the hardships and how tired & sick you felt, and thinking about little ole me, having to possibly roll a dead husband out the door with me congested & coughng, & all with a useless arm to boot, if we were into pandemic conditions!
One of the problems I noticed was that I am soooooooooo right-handed that I’m just helpless with my left hand — stirring soup, cleaning litterpans, bathing, hygiene, chopping kindling, etc, all done with a strong right arm!!! Not yesterday! Not that I was chopping kindling but if I HAD been, I’d probably have chopped off my head in the process if I only had my left arm to lead with!
We didn’t know if I was reacting to the ‘pneumonia recipe’ or if the nurse just stuck me in a nerve or in a muscle at a really bad place or what. Going to a doc-in-a-box Sunday AM was in the back of my mind if the icing & elevating didn’t help during the night.
Whatever caused such a reaction, it really put into perspective for me how being as weak as the flu seems to make people, would be so much worse thn my arm was. NOT looking forward to anything even like the flu, much less the BF! Anyone else had that kind of reaction to a shot??
Actually it`s a fairly common reaction to a vacine type shot. It`s a hypersenstivity type, and you did all the right things to treat it. Everyone above 45 should have a bottle of baby aspirin in your BF supplies.Take 1 a day. When TSHTF you don`t want to have a heart attack. Reyes syndrom is very rare, and very scary when it happens.In 30+ years, I`ve personally only taken care of 2 teens with it, and both survived with ICU care. As I`m a card carrying old fart, my older kids routinely got aspirin when running fevers, was the only thing available, then. I was lucky, no Reyes. When using Tylenol, be VERY careful that you don`t go over the daily limit. Liver failure 6 weeks down the road is not a fun way to die, if you`ve survived the BF.
Well, I’m glad to know this is fairly common (at least I think I am), but golly I feel for anyone who has to deal with it — hypersensitivity huh? I’ll have to call my doc tomorrow and have them put that in my files, although I doubt I’ll soon forget this! But someone needs to know that, in case I and my husband are both unconscious for some reason. Boy, it’s really no better at 4pm now, than this morning, but I’ve been asleep all day practically, since I didn’t get ANY restful sleep last night - hence I had more aspirin during the night than I have had today.
It’s also good to know I did the right thing…..that was just too wild for my taste.
I meant to say THANKS catus az for your insight — there’s always room to learn, isn’t there? Thanks for teaching!
Tylenol can cause liver damage in some people, especially when taken day after day. A friend (who was a heavy drinker, BTW), was diabetic and had a leg wound that didn’t heal. Rather than go to the Dr., he took Tylenol every day until he wound up with liver failure. He died.
This was quite a few years ago, but since then I’ve read a number of warnings about not overusing Tylenol for long periods. Apparently something similar happened to a number of people. I don’t believe it’s recommended to take it longer than 3 days. You might want to have a backup alternate on hand, just in case. After the friend died, my ex will not take Tylenol to this day.
The reveres comment here:
“Pop quiz: what is the leading cause of acute liver failure in the US?
Answer: Tylenol (acetaminophen).
This has been known for a few years, but the general public (and many health care providers) remain unaware of it. The “therapeutic window” (the difference between a safe and harmful dose) is narrow and the drug is found in many different formulations (an estimated 200), often labeled non-aspirin pain relievers. Thus it is relatively easy to take several different over-the-counter and even prescription drugs (e.g., Percoset and Vicodin) that have acetaminophen in them and exceed the maximum recommended daily dose of 4 grams/day (8 pills, each with 500 mgms; i.e., two maximum strength tablets four times a day). It is thought that as little as 7.5 grams (less than double that) might result in severe liver injury in some people. (MedPageToday, reporting on a recent paper by Larson AM et al “Acetaminophen-Induced Acute Liver Failure: Results a United States Multicenter, Prospective Study.” Hepatology 2005;42:1364–1372.)
While liver toxicity is still relatively rare compared to the estimated 8 to 9 billion tablets ingested annually in this country, marketing practices make it more likely to happen. For one thing, the drug is aggressively marketed as being an especially safe analgesic compared to aspirin. It is true its gastric effects are less, but the liver toxicity is more severe. In addition, it is sold in a Regular Strength (325 mg) and Extra Strength (500 mg) formulation, with the lower dose receiving significantly less room on the drugstore shelf, according to the American Liver Foundation. Others have noted that the bulk containers (“like M&Ms”) also contribute to the problem. They suggest either putting the tablets in blister packs or restricting the amount that can be purchased at one time.”
Read the whole thing: this is a public health risk because of the way it is marketed. This is not a “benign” drug, there is no such thing.
JV there is a topic on the subject of Cytokine storm. Statins are being looked at as a possible drug class that will have some effect on the immune response.
Aspirin should not be taken by ADULTS OR CHILDREN!!
Here is a critical link that everyone reading this post should read regarding risk of Reye’s Syndrom in adults: http://www.reyessyndrome.org/aspirin.htm.
From the Reye’s Syndrome Foundation Web Site (http://www.reyessyndrome.org/): “Reye’s Syndrome, a deadly disease, strikes swiftly and can attack any child or adult without warning. All body organs are affected, with the liver and brain suffering most seriously. While the cause and cure remain unknown, research has established a link between Reye’s Syndrome and the use of aspirin and other salicylate-containing medications.”
The list of salicylate-containing medications is a long one, and everyone should familiarize him- or herself with it (see the link at the top of this message).
Directly related to this topic: In December I read the book “Homeopathic Treatment of Influenza” by Sandra Perko. I have never used homeopathy in my life, but when I realized I probably wouldn’t be able to get Tamiflu, I decided to look into alternatives that are available.
Anyway, according to Perko’s book aspirin was the allopathic (i.e., traditional) treatment of choice in 1918–1919. It almost always resulted in “prostration” of the patient (many of the symptoms of prostration are similar to the symptoms of Reye’s), and her theory—as well as that of others—is that many, many people *who would have otherwise recovered* in 1918–19 died as the result of undiagnosed Reye’s Syndrome. The CFR among homeopaths (who did not use aspirin) was reportedly a fraction of that for the allopathic physicians. Now, given that this was a homeopathic book, I tend to consider the source when vetting this info. However, all of the other factual statements she made in the book were legit, so I have no reason to question this information.
Whether child or adult, please do not take aspirin.
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 13:29: It sounds like you had the same pneumovax reaction everyone in our family had. Excruciating discomfort in the arm we had the shots in, including involving our shoulder joint. Waking up in the night with pain, etc. Our pain lessened each day but lasted about three days total. My friend is getting the pneumo for her family, and I warned her to ready for some big whine time from the kids. I don’t think our reaction was out of the ordinary, but it did stink for sure. Next time you get a vaccine, get it in the non-dominant arm.
Also, Ibuprofen is not on the Reye’s Syndrome list (which is not 100% complete by their own admission), and every pediatrician I know has recommended its use to me for both my children all their lives specifically as fever reducer.
Edna Mode – at 23:08
Aspirin should not be taken by ADULTS OR CHILDREN!!
Don’t be tellin folks to be getting off their aspirin EM!!! As you said, Aspirin should NOT be used in kids with the flu. Ever. The cause of Reyes is unknown! Studies have shown that in kids (<16) aspirin taken during viral illness does increase the risk of Reyes.
Adults who take daily aspirin for CV disease (stroke, cardiac, vascular) would be well advised (IMO) to continue per Rx during a pandemic. The “anti platelet” effect will be very important in adults cramped up for long periods of time in thier homes. Dehydration (from rationing), lack of activity and illness all contribute to the increased risk of clot formation leading to stroke and pulmonary emboli. During a pandemic, increased stress and exertional anginal (chest tightness) patients will benefit from aspirin dosing possibly preventing progression to a full blown MI. Studies have shown significant benefit from aspirins anticoagulation effects in these patients.
MAV in Colorado – at 14:59 MAV, I respectfully disagree. The context of this discussion is aspirin use during fever-inducing illness (for our purposes, flu). If you go to the National Institute of Health’s Web page on Reye’s Syndrome, it clearly states that while RS is most common in children, it can occur at any age. The cause is a mystery, but the NIH again states clearly that there is a documented correlation between aspirin use during illness and the development of RS. Also, your definition of a child as someone <16 is incorrect according to both the NIH and the National Reye’s Syndrome Association definitions. According to those definitions, a child is anyone 19 years old or younger. Not trying to split hairs, here. People with kids need correct information to make accurate, informed decisions.
Assuming your information is correct on the topic of aspirin as a cardiovascular prophylactic treatment, it would make sense that anyone who is *otherwise healthy* and is deriving benefit by taking aspirin may want to continue.
However, I stand by my original assertion. Based on the information from both the NIH and the NRSA, aspirin should not be taken by adults or children who are sick with the flu.
I guess my point would be that if you are currently taking aspirin for the CV benefits and have apparently not developed Reyes to this point, I would not stop it. The risk of Reyes in someone who has been taking aspirin daily must be nearly zero. Where as the risks associated from stopping this form of anticoagulation could be significant. For those that may be unaware, long term daily apirin use has been recommended and used for CV disease for many years. I am not aware of any Reyes syndrome studies or incidence in this population.
Edna Mode is correct. please consider my posts as footnotes.
I checked a couple of websites on Reyes INCIDENCE and found a quote of 1 case/1 million population. In the USA about 50 cases are indentified a year. 90% of cases are under age 15. Now I also googled the USA census and we are at 295 million. So we should have 295 cases a year. Some may be missed but the incidence could be less than 50/yr.
Personally Aspirin works wonders for me on aches and fevers of flu when I have had it. Ibuprofen tears up my stomach worse than enteric coated ASA. Acetominophen does not reduce fevers as well as ASA for me but I usually alternate it with ASA anyway.
As a physician I believe that it is safe for adults to take Aspirin. Yes you may have a small statistical risk of Reyes.
Sacmer
“As a physician I believe that it is safe for adults to take Aspirin. Yes you may have a small statistical risk of Reyes.”
I agree. I think it is all a matter of taking calculated risks and being educated about it.
Everyone agrees that giving kids aspirins is a bad idea.
For adults, for most people meds such as acetaminophen or ibuprofen work, but there are some people for whom aspirin may work better, or they have to take them for cardiovascular problems. It would not be advisable to stop if that applies to you.
NO aspirin (ASA) for kids unless prescribed by pediatrician. Some kids ARE prescribed it for various conditions, but usually, in the US, it is not routinely used for fevers.
Many adults take ASA for a multitude of reasons, including cardiac/stroke prophylaxis. As mentioned, do NOT stop taking your ASA if directed to do so, without being instructed by your physician/healthcare provider.
ASA, NSAIDs, Acetaminophen (Tylenol) will all reduce fever in adults. One may work better than another. Each has it’s benefits and risks. ALL DRUGS HAVE RISKS! Melanie’s post re: Tylenol is accurate. If you drink alcohol with any regularity or have any history of liver problems, this drug may not be for you.
ASA and NSAIDs are well known for causing GI distress and bleeding. ASA (unless enteric coated) usually moreso than the NSAIDs. GI distress and bleeding was one of the problems drug makers were trying to solve by coming up with the NSAIDs. For a few years, we thought the NSAIDs were a great solution. And THEN, we started seeing all of these GI bleed patients. Even today, with the population aging and having more complaints of arthritis and other inflammatory problems, we see a great deal of gastritis and GI bleeds from ASA and/or NSAID therapy.
NSAIDs also have other adverse reactions. They can precipitate renal failure in people with kidney problems. I am always extremely careful when administering these drugs to the elderly. Short term use is usually OK, but even that may cause the kidneys to take a “hit”. These drugs can also worsen hypertension. These effects occur because of the way NSAIDs work.
Many people do not seem to be aware that NSAIDs can cause significant esophagitis and GI bleeding. That was the reason we looked for still another solution and the COX-2 Inhibitors were developed. They suppressed the inflammatory response without causing much GI distress. But then they were found to cause stroke/cardiac problems resulting in the withdrawal of most of these drugs.
So…to summarize:
ASA: none for kids, can cause systemic/GI bleeding NSAIDs: can cause GI bleeding, renal dysfunction with long term use ACETAMINOPHEN: can cause liver damage with concurrent alcohol use, large doses
Of course, there are many other benefits/risks associated with these drugs. Ask your pharmacist, healthcare provider for specific info.
a littel coment, Tylenol (paracetamol.damn those brandnames!..) was given to me when I almost cut of my finger, also once when I had dental work it was prescibed, and it did not work for me! Ibuprien on the other hand cured my pain in half hour. Mesage is, dont stock up on only one. Get both, after all many more thing can happen to you than the flu during a pandemic, and heavy pain and SIP dont mix well..
ASA and NSAID are abbreviations, medical field shorthand for writing chart notes.
ASA = acetylsalicylic acid (chemical name) = aspirin (Bayer, etc.) ASA is a commonly used shorthand specifically referring to blood-thinning therapy of 81 mg daily for stroke and cardiac patients. This is NOT the same as using aspirin for headache and fevers. Adults can temporarily use aspirin for pain relief and fevers. Children should not.
Acetaminophen = Tylenol, etc. Pain relief and fevers.
Ibuprofin = Motrin, etc. Pain relief and fevers, anti-inflammatory.
NSAID = Non-Steroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug = naproxen sodium (Naprosin), Celebrex, etc. Used for arthritis, sports injuries, tendonitis, etc.
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As a nurse within the major incident team, we have discussed drug treatment in the first instance.
I am in the UK so drug names may vary. NO anti-emetic or anti-diarroheal drugs whatsoever.
Children—Paracetamol first, if no reduction in fever, Ibuprofen 2hours later. Continue to alternate at 2 hourly intervals. If temperature continues to rise or refuses to come down. Paracetamol suppositories to be given.(I am not sure if these are available over the counter in the US)
Adults—Paracetamol first for fever. If patient in pain also, Paracetamol with codeine can be given. If no response Ibuprofen or Diclofenic to be given and then alternated 2 hourly with paracetamol. If patient has a history of stomach problems, particularly ulcers. Ibuprofen to be given rectally. I have read on this thread some concerns Re: Usage of some drugs and liver damage. I presume you are talking about Paracetamol. One thing to note is, Paracetamol in the US carrys the anti-dote. It doesn’t in the UK and is the drug of choice for overdoses BUT even in someone with a damaged or weakened liver it would take a serious amount to kill(more than would be needed to reduce fever over a few days to a week). In the case of a fever associated with bird flu’ it would be my drug of choice. For young, old and those with pre-existing illness. I know everyone on here is prepared but in cases where someone may call you and ask for advice and all they have is aspirin. Tell them to give it..Aspirin is the lesser of the 2 evils.
Anon at 20:59
Just to note..Naproxen is not being newly prescribed in UK and most countries in Europe because it carries a very high risk of internal bleeding including intestinal and urinary tract! Those already on it and who have no side effects can remain on it.
Celebrex is no longer prescribed and is in the process of being banned because it carries a high risk of strokes and sudden death.
We have to make a balanced judgement. BUT Naproxen and celebrex should be avoided like the plague or bird flu’..Sorry for the bad joke but if we didn’t laugh we could drive ourselves mad!!
two years ago I had a heart attack and I have been on a daily dose of aspirin ever since and the Dr gives me prescribed Ibuprofin for pain and I also have prescribed Percocet for dental work. so far no problems, and I go for blood work every three months. of course that would come to a screeching halt if I had to SIP. but I’m stocking up on my regular medications and hopeing for the best. gonna hang in here as long as The Good Lord will let me. Got too much Happy tracks and hate and discontent to spread to leave yet. LOLOL. Good Morning everyone and have a great weekend.
My understanding regarding naproxen (Naprosyn and others) is a little different. It has been long known that all NSAIDs (including Naproxen) can cause internal bleeding. In this regard most traditional anti-flammatories (NSAIDs) are more or less on par with one another.
Recent attention has been drawn to the increased cardiovascular risks associated with the COX-2 inhibitors (Vioxx, Bextra and Celebrex - currently Celebrex is the only one currently still available in Canada). What is interesting is that naproxen shared this increased CV risk, whereas before it was thought to have a positive effect.
Not that it is really a major issue, as Tylenol (acetaminophen), Aspirin (ASA, acetylsalicylic acid) and Motrin or Advil (ibuprofen) are just effective in treating fever and have been proven safer than any of the other NSAIDs.
The incidence of Reye’s syndrome is very rare, and can occur in the absence of Aspirin. So from that perspective, if that’s all you ARE ABLE TO GET and you consider the fever possibly life-threatening, go ahead. If you are ABLE TO GET Tylenol or ibuprofen, use that first.
Note the stress: just because you don’t HAVE something on hand doesn’t prevent you from getting it from elsewhere. Most places will be open for business in some form or another, and these products can be found at a very wide variety of locations.
anonymous – at 20:59 What I wrote is simply a short identification and clarification of the drugs and abbreviations being used in this thread, because it was starting to get a little confused.
If you’ll reread it - there is absolutely NO suggested use. Each and every person on this thread has access to medical advice. Use it. If in doubt at all, go with advice from your own medical provider. They know what allergies, sensitivities and conditions you have. Read the labels and the packaging. It contains proper doses and appropriate uses. Most important - every OTC product has a different formula of chemical. Anacin, Excedrin, etc. These products have some of this and some of that, with a bit of caffeine for that migraine (which is not good for a fever) etc. etc. Read the label.
We’re a society of drug users for every little thing, with a daily barrage of advertising about “that everyday pain”. Parents routinely hand kids Tylenol to shut them up and get them to school. I’m very sure that a number of the people on this thread carry bottles of pain reliever in their purses and in the desk drawer at work.
Me - I LOVE Celebrex; Naprosin is pretty good too. I never take Tylenol, but would give it to a suffering teething baby without hesitation. Same with ibuprofen. I would never even consider giving aspirin (not to be confused with ‘ASA’ - 81 mg is NOT the proper dose for reducing fever and pain) to teenagers or children, for the simple reason that there are enormous quantities and varieties of better options. Common sense and moderation, folks.
actually, ASA 81mg is “Asprin” (acetylsalicylic acid). The old “Children’s Aspirin” from Bayer has in fact 80mg of ASA in it. They stopped marketing ASA for kids due to the Reye’s syndrome thing, though. In the meantime, it was discovered that for blood thinning purposes, a full 5-grain (325mg) dose of ASA was not commonly required - hence the 81mg dose.
HI everyone. I just posted a warning on the fever thread about people taking daily aspirin for heart health and using Ibuprofin for fever management. Ibufprofin-Advil-Aleve cancels out the effects of aspirin thereby putting your heart health at risk. I would talk to my doctor if you’re taken daily aspirin, but I suspect you will be steered to Tylenol. Forgive me if this was mentioned earlier it’s a long thread and I didn’t have time to read all of it. See FDA Alert:http://tinyurl.com/qau5x
Thanks Leo7, I added that to my notes that go in with my medicine bottles!
bump
Just finished reading most of the posts here, with great interest. I just wanted to add one suggestion: when sick (especially if you have a fever) or even if you are well and caring for someone who is sick, it is a very good idea to start a running list/chart indicating time medication is given/taken, name of medication, and dosage. This is especially important if taking multiple medications, but really helpful at any time to keep track of what one should or shouldn’t take at a given time and what has already been used.
In my books, I have stated that use of aspirin and other NSAIDs like ibuprofen and naproxen are causes of Reyes Syndrome. Do to the comments in this thread, I took another look at this recently and now think that I overstated the case. While aspirin is a clear cause of Reyes, use of the other NSAIDs including ibuprofen, have not been associated with this serious side effect. As always, your child’s doctor is the best guide for what to give him or her. If the books have another printing, I will reword this section.
Thanks to the FW community for helping me provide better information.
Grattan Woodson, MD, FACP