This is a long post, so stay with me here…
I spent this past week working on the house my wife and I are purchasing in the southeastern portion of Virginia, USA. As we worked on the house, we found that one of the bedroom walls was falling away, and investigated. What we found was mold growing on the inside of the north-facing wall. As it turns out, it wasn’t just ordinary mold…it was a bit more toxic than that. A local mold remediation company was called and they began their work. For two days, two of their technicians sealed off the room, donned fully self-contained PPE gear and respirators and removed the mold, then treated the remaining walls.
Now, here’s the scenario: both of the days they worked, they were inside an air-conditioned room. The A/C was set at 72 degrees Fahrenheit. The outdoor temp was about 94 degrees, with humidity at about 75%. At the end of 6 hours of wearing PPE and masks, each of these techs removed their suits and was absolutely soaked from sweat. I’m not talking their t-shirts were damp. I’m talking they looked like they had just stepped out of a shower fully clothed!
After they finished and got cleaned up, I found some time to talk with them about their gear…full CDC-approved PPE suits and respirators worn under full hoods.. The suits were made of a Tyvek-type of material on the outside, but on the inside were coated with a very thin lining of vinyl, and were non-breathing. The respirators were NIOSH N/P100 with small, 2-pound air tanks attached for positive air flow. These guys were completely sealed off from the ambient air around them.
Here is where I know that I’m going to get flamed and yelled at. What they told me about masks is sure to make a lot of you rethink going to work or into town wearing a simple mask that you may have bought at one of the big home-improvement stores (like I did), and how often you’ll want to wear a full PPE suit.
Masks
According to these experts in mold and bacteria removal, N or P100 masks alone will not stop a virus. They are designed for particulates, those things you see floating around in the air after working with a saw or a shop vacuum cleaner, or unseen, non-malleable particles. The problem, as they explained it, is that viruses are living things and are very malleable. When they come into contact with the fibers on a standard mask, they can bend and twist to make their way through to the inside without too much trouble. The chances of it happening are low, they both admit, but still, the chances are high enough to warrant not wearing those types of masks. The techs explained that that’s the reason the folks in CDC labs and in the movies wear full bio-suits. They told me that while in NOLA, many of the techs from other companies that wore what they thought were acceptable N100 masks during mold remediation and repair came down sick from a number of respiratory ailments, all due to using cheap masks and not wearing fully self-contained PPE suits. My question was this: if they wear full bio-suits for mold and bacteria, would a standard PPE suit work for viruses? Their answer, in tandem, was a resounding “NO WAY!!”
The guy who was the ‘boss’ onsite is a Project Manager for the company, and his partner is a Remediation Manager. They both stated that the reason the WHO, the gov’t, and the CDC are advising the public to buy these N95 and higher masks is simply to console and placate the public and keep people from panicking. Obviously an opinion on their part, but an informed opinion at that.
Both of these guys agreed that, with the danger that H5N1 poses, social distancing and using, minimally, N/P100 masks is the best option. Don’t get within 10 to 15 feet (literally) of any other persons on the street or at work.
The Project Manager is also the company’s “Mask Fitter” for all their technicians. He said that he’s had a lot of the techs get fitted for their masks, only to find out that the masks didn’t really form a good seal around the men with goatees. The way he checks for fit is to have the “fittee” put the mask on, then a “black-out” hood over that. Then he wafts banana smoke under the hood and asks them if they can smell it. If they say yes, then he does a refit on the mask and repeats the process. If they say no, then he wafts a very acrid stink-bomb smoke under the hood and asks again if they can smell it. He said that the fittee will usually have the hood and mask off their heads and be running for the door before he’s even able to ask…
The masks they used are rated N100. They are rubberized gas masks with twin carbon filters and a positive air flow hose attached to an air tank on their backs. The air tank creates a 2–3psi pressure inside the mask, thereby forcing air out of the mask at all times.
PPE suits
In a word, HOT!!!, and I don’t mean High Fashion!!. The Project Manager, while working in New Orleans, lost 10 pounds in two days of wearing his gear. The company changed their work policy after seeing the effects of wearing PPE for more then 3 hours at a time in that kind of heat to reflect a policy of “2 hours on, 2 hours off”. After working in the suits for two hours, each tech is also required to drink at least 1 quart of an electrolyte solution such as Gator-Aid or Power-Aid before being allowed to go back to work. They were able to work for 6 hours at our house because we had the A/C cranked so low. Many of the better suits have chest cavities that can hold cold-packs to keep the body’s core temperature down to tolerable levels. The suits they had were not exactly like you may have seen in some of the disaster movies like “Outbreak” or “Andromeda Strain” or “The Stand”. These were more ‘form-fitting’ and easier to move around in, more like a mechanic’s coveralls, with a little hump on the back where the air tank sits.
As I sat and watched them put on these suits, I timed them to see how long it takes “experts” to don something like this. 30 minutes. First, the air-tank is mounted into a sling and worn on the back like a backpack. Then, one partner attaches the hose to the tank and runs it up over the shoulder to the mask and attaches it. The wearer then Velcro’s and zips up the front of the suit all the way to the top of his neck, just below his chin. His partner then places the hood over the his head and Velcro’s and zips it to the coverall suit.
I have to say that, at this point, it was very un-nerving to see them walking into my new home dressed this way. Very scary…ya know how your tummy seems to tumble when you have that anxious feeling? Yeah…just like that!
When they were done at the end of each day, they climbed into their trailer, turned on a large vacuum cleaner, then took turns stepping into an enclosed shower. The reason for this was to wash off any of the mold that had landed on their suits. The vacuum cleaner was attached first to a water filter and reclamation unit, and the air was forced through a set of HEPA filters to remove any mold particles that might make it past the water bath.
Apparently, even with standard PPE and N95/100 masks, a person would still be at risk of contacting a virus like H5N1, so basically, we all may want to rethink the use of masks and PPE gear, and simply SIP until the danger has passed.
On top of all that, when I got back to California, instead of a regular 2 1/2 hour drive from San Jose to FresNo, it took over seven hours because my poor little Jeep didn’t like being left in the long-term parking lot under the blazing California sun for over a week. Radiator plugged up, air-conditioning on the fritz, boiling over about every 3 miles, 113 degrees on Hwy 101 in stop ‘n go traffic. Ah yes, California living at it’s finest!
BB - all I can say is I’m glad I only spent $100 on N95′s…
I only spent $120…6 boxes from Home Depot. Hmmm…I wonder if I can take them back? Maybe I’ll tell them that my science project was cancelled…
What an awful experience - and you just bought this house, right? I suspected that the N95 wasn’t going to be good enough for a virus. Isn’t that what they’re recommending for health care workers too? Providing a false sense of security?
The scenario you describe reminds me of, uh, “Ghostbusters.” My brother-in-law works in a nuclear power plant and has to get suited up to work in containment. I should ask him about it. I imagine it is very hot. I do know that despite all the precautions they take, they still get contaminated, but at least they know it when they go through the detector. BIL now has skin cancer and has an apt with a specialist tomorrow because he’s having problems swallowing - he’s only 44, and I’m concerned that the long-term exposure to radiation in his job may cut his life short. Anyway, I digress, if a person is planning on PPE to protect them, consider that you are risking your life and whether you trust the PPE you’re using to really protect you.
I agree with your assessment that it will be better to shelter in place, but if going out is absolutely necessary, such as taking a sick or injured child to the doctor, then use a PPE and practice social distancing.
Well, at least I haven’t sunk much money into masks … nada really except for a box for working outside, not around people.
I’m still glad I have a few boxes of latex gloves … but they’ll come in handy for a lot of different things even if there is no pandemic.
Glad you made it home safely … even if slowly <grin> Been there, done that with the cranky vehicle in hot weather. <yuck>
BB Sorry to hear about your experience with the new house. Seems like I have heard more and more stories along this line in recent years. Who knew mold could be so dangerous and could get so entrenched in a home as to need to be removed?
As far as the masks are concerned, am sure you are correct and suspected this from the begining. My N95′s are better than nothing and will plan on using them only if it is absolutely necessary to go out and will use as many other precautions as possible, especially distancing, antiseptic measures etc. The situation that worries me the most at our age is if, God forbid, we have a medical emergency and need to go to a hospital. Have most of the meds needed to SIP including prescription, OTC, and so on, but as we get older we become more familiar with emergency rooms, doctors, tests. In fact, I have heard it said that is why God lets us retire, so we will have time to do all that stuff!
BB, thanks for the information. The folks that have do deal with molds (presumably the notorious black mold) should know what they are talking about.
It does sound like using N95/N100 masks still provide some protection, though, just not the level that we were lead to believe.
I hear you about leaving the car in the sun at San Jose airport. I just got back from a 5 day trip to L.A. My car feels sluggish, probably due to the heat.
Anyway, back on topic, I plan to SIP for as long as I can. If I have to go out then I will wear the N95 masks that I have and will try to keep my distance. I only have supplies for a couple of months, live in an apartment complex and will more then likely have to go outside to cook at some point, so have little choice. I don’t plan on going the full hazmat route.
I hope you made some progress on the new place. From experience, I know that dealing with mold is expensive. I hope it did not break the bank.
Mike
From experience, I know that dealing with mold is expensive. I hope it did not break the bank.
Thanks…but not my bank. :-) Previous owner gets to pay this bill! My understanding is that it’ll run her about $5000 for the two days’ work. The area of wall they rebuilt? About 8 (eight!) square feet.
One of the things I know about mold is that it needs a dark, humid, almost hot, area to grow in. Usually the worst in the summer months. That’s why it’s found in so many buildings between Maine and Floriday, and along the Gulf Coast. Not so much on the West Coast or Southwestern deserts…it’s too dry here.
The mold that was found in this house was definitely Black Mold. The two techs suspected it when they saw it, I suspected it when I saw it, and their lab confirmed it. It wasn’t on a piece of wallboard much larger than about 1 foot square, but their job is to eradicate it to the Nth degree…that’s why they pulled down a 2 foot x 4 foot section of wall…
Floriday? Mr. Eccles..can I borrow Mavis for a while…??
BB, glad to hear it. I was hoping that the previous owners would be on the hook for it.
My parents were quoted a price of $17,000 for a small amount of black mold on the ceiling. The spore level was on the low side so my dad just repaired the dry wall and repainted. He said that we (my siblingd and I) could deal with it after we inherited the house.
Mike
Wow…thanks for the info.
Ditto on the sentiments of the others in glad I didn’t spend much on mine (3 boxes). But still feel safer wearing those rather than nothing if I have to get out.
Off to get a large supply of DampRid :-/ Thanks for sharing, BB.
BB- Go ahead. mavis has not been treating me well lately. Even after the session with her assoicate with the “Teaching Stick” I can do no better now than before.
CAMike – at 15:57 LOL!! Thanks, Dad!!
All---I have to agree that N95 masks will give better protection than nothing at all, but on the other hand, what the techs told me about viruses (virii?) being malleable was something that I had not heard before. You can be sure that I will be trying to stand upwind of everybody!!
Bronco Bill – at 15:49 “Previous owner gets to pay this bill!”
You must have discovered the mold before closing? or had a good lawyer ;)
tjclaw1 – at 16:35 --- We’re not actually buying the house until December. Owner needs to retain posession until at least the end of September to avoid paying capital gains taxes. We wrote up a lease-option contract, and stated what she was responsible for. The mold was found as we were doing an inspection with her present, and she volunteered to have it cleaned up. When she found out what it was going to cost her, she was not happy!!!
Not my problem…
BroncoBill, my sympathies on your mold problem. About 12 years ago had the same problem in my (finished) basement walls. I knew there’d been water damage down there, but every inch of the back of the sheetrock (and portions of the front) was solid black. At the time I didn’t really know what bad stuff it was, and we tore it all out ourselves, wearing no protection whatsoever. OMG, I thought I was going to die! Developed asthma & flu-type symptoms which lasted about 2 months (even worse symptoms than what I’d had since moving into the house), I just really felt like crap and could barely breathe. After getting it all out I began to feel better, but I think it took several months. I honestly think I’d tackle an asbestos removal project before I’d try another mold removal project! BTW, never did have much faith in those masks… I’ve used them on jobs and could never get the things to seal properly, they’re hotter ‘n h*ll, and I could still smell fumes even when wearing one.
Bronco Bill – at 16:47
You were very, very lucky. A real estate lawyer’s worst nightmare discovery before or after closing - mold, aesbestos, UGSTs (underground storage tanks), dumps …. ugh, brings back ugly nightmares of private practice.
NIOSH uses a formula to determine which mask is appropriate for a specific type of particle. Particle size and malleability aren’t the only factors, the formula also includes: concentration of particles in the air, lethality of particles, amount of time a person will be exposed to the particles, whether the particles contain oil, and the actual conditions under which the person will be exposed (healthcare worker, cleanup crew, equipment tester, etc.). I *think* NIOSH recommends N-95 masks for protection against viruses in terms of it being a minimum level of protection for short-term exposure in a healthcare situation, as opposed to a maximum level. In addition, there isn’t any conclusive research evidence about the amount of protection that masks really offer against viruses. So, I don’t think they are trying to placate people, instead they are basing their recommendations on what is known . . . and that isn’t much. I bought 60 masks a long time ago and haven’t felt like buying any more because of the lack of evidence for their efficacy. On the other hand, they are probably better than nothing if someone sneezes on you by accident.
knowall – at 17:05 --- I do agree with you about the NIOSH formulary. Length of exposure is a major player in the rating system. However, if TSHTF, and HCWs are faced with working with infected people all day every day for hours and hours at a time, I would think that would constitute a bit more than “minimal exposure”.
And what with the gov’t saying “buy N95 masks, you’re on your own”, I have to wonder, why don’t they say “buy N100 masks for greater protection”? Are N95 masks easier to find?
Hi Bronco Bill - at 17:15 - My understanding is that according to the way NIOSH reasons, N100 doesn’t offer greater protection than the N-95--it offers the same amount of protection as the N-95. The reason for this is because even though the N100 might have smaller pores, the size of the N-95 pores are enough to do the job, taking into account the variation in the size of the virus. Plus, in a healthcare situation, NIOSH is thinking that workers will dispose of the masks after each contact with a patient. Does that make sense? I’m not a healthcare worker but maybe it would be overkill for them to wear more than the N-95, for example, a full-face respirator, if they have to dispose of them many times per day.
Makes perfect sense to me. I honestly don’t know about the difference ‘tween the two types of masks. Their comparisons have been debated here on the Forums for quite some time now, inlcuding the old Forum. I imagine, based on seeing these guys working with full respirators, that it would get awfully uncomfortable, even in the colder months.
I’m not sure about the difference between the two, either, I just know it has something to do with microns and exposure and that NIOSH formula. I think the most important thing is to do what makes you feel the most secure within your budget. Even if everyone is saying that N-95′s are rated as “adequate,” if you are the kind of person who worries about such things, it might make more sense to go ahead and buy the N-100′s or even full body gear, if that’s what it takes to make you feel secure—even if there’s no scientific evidence to back it up. Otherwise, you might drive yourself crazy with wondering whether you made the right decision. If I had the money, I might have purchased the full-face respirator and full body gear but ultimately I decided it was too expensive and I wasn’t sure if I’d have the courage to actually wear it(you’d be making a very loud fashion statement)so I went with the N-95′s but when I learned about the lack of evidence for their efficacy against viruses, I decided to focus more on just staying away from people as best I can. After talking to the mold crew, will you wearing a full-face mask and suit for day to day protection?
BB; thanks for the information. I guess it goes to show us that there is mitigation and then there is mitigation, just depends on how much can be spent. I bet the company that employs those guys has seen the cost of losing a suit to a worker who gets sick on the job and the cost of state-of-the art PPE and went with door number 1. I’ll bet there isn’t a jury in America that wouldn’t find for a guy who got sick and disabled because his employer didn’t want to spend the dough on state-of-the art.
We are not facing that risk at least. Unless the UN gives our kids the right to sue us in International Court:)
As a result of your post, I’ll be buying more N95 masks so I can change them more frequently if I’m out and about.
Thanks for the info.
All, I do feel for the HCW’s that try to do the right thing with inadequate equipment. It is my understanding that most hospitals are majorly unprepared for paniflu and will likely not have any where near enough masks that that they can change them after each patient. This reinforces something that I have been thinking about for the last few months and that is to only go to the hospital for critical conditions.
I think it was Tom DVM that estimated about one third of the casualties will be from those that need a hospital but can’t go for a variety of reasons. This strikes close to home for me as my mom had to be admitted this last week with congestive heart failure, kidney disease and bronchitis, all at the same time. There is no way she would have survived during a paniflu epidemic if she had been kept home or if we had taken her to the hospital (if they even would have had room for her).
There are too many things to keep track of and no right answers. I choose to do the best I can in prepping with the knowledge I have gained from the FW. If the S*** hits the fan hard there is not a lot that I can do. I can SIP for awhile then I will have to leave at some point for a resupply run. So be it.
Mike
After talking to the mold crew, will you wearing a full-face mask and suit for day to day protection?
Not a chance. First, I don’t have PPE gear. Second, I can’t afford PPE gear. And third, where I’m moving to? With the heat and humidity I personally wouldn’t survive more than about 15 minutes in one. Nope…I’m with the social distancing crowd. I don’t know if I’ll be able to SIP for more than a month or so, so latex gloves, N95 masks, and staying upwind of everybody are what I’m gonna have to do…
Note to self. Buy full PPE gear and move to Winterpeg. Oops, Winnepeg.
CAMike - at 19:22 - so sorry to hear about your mom, I hope she is doing better. You’re right, a trip to the hospital could be dangerous, if not life-threatening. Perhaps people who need to visit the hospital regularly will consider investing in a PPE suit, they’re expensive, but can be cleaned, disinfected, and reused.
Bronco Bill - at 19:39 - I’m with you and the rest of the SIP/staying upwind crowd.
Anyone else here made the investment in PPE gear? If so, do you plan to wear it on a day-to-day basis or for emergencies only when SIP, such as a trip to the hospital or pharmacy.
No more masks, must buy more handwashing solution….glad you found the mold problem before it found it’s way into someone’s lungs; all that and a hot Ca. highway-egads, some week!
PPE’s I plan on having- N95′s-gloves, tons of soap and paper towels for handwashing; inside/outside house or sickroom shoes.
IMHO, people/loved ones who are sick or dying don’t need to be further distanced by a full-body “armor” suit. Not for me,anyway…..
BB,
Would you mind my asking.. with what and how exactly did the technicians “treat” the remaining walls?
Bluesfan – at 21:45 --- They drilled holes in the adjoining spaces along that wall and sprayed some type of aerosol chemical into the spaces. I didn’t get the name, but they said it’s very much like anti-fouling paint. They pump about a pound of it into each space, and it coats the inside of the sheetrock (and kills whatever mold might be down and out of site). They also drilled a couple of holes into the ceiling next to the wall, and sprayed up there.
I forgot to add, in that region many homes have large fans installed under the house and set on timers. These fans move the air around under the house on hot, humid days, and work to keep the mold levels down under the house and in the lower walls. We found out that the fans under this house hadn’t been working for almost 3 years!
BB, A close friend of mine just discovered black mold in his house..walls were ripped out, but did not treat with any chemical that I’m aware of, so I thank you for the info and I will pass that along to him. Glad to hear that you caught that nasty problem when you did!
they looked like they had just stepped out of a shower fully clothed
Wonder if this will be on the market here soon:
laura in pa – at 22:18 --- OMG!!! That would go soooo well with my USB coffee pot and my USB electric toothbrush!!!
Bluesfan – at 22:11 --- If the entire section of wall from ceiling to floor was torn out, and the mold wasn’t found encroaching on the wood frames, then your friend should be fine…they found that the mold in my place had gotten to the frame, and that was why they treated the whole wall…
Bronco - sorry to hear about the house but glad you got the insight and mentioned it. In support of your position, from my BF Report nine months ago:
An 80 – 120 nanometer H5N1 virus will zip right through a 300 nanometer N-95 faster than your t-cells can say “let’s roll.”
N95 is a particulant filter. That is OK if H5N1 is clumped together with body fluids but just a few can make it through as well as more when the gunk dries on the outside of the mask.
Using an N95 for H5N1 is like playing Russian Roulette with 3 or 4 bullets loaded - you have a false sense of security but don’t know the odds are stacked against you.
I don’t mind taking the heat on other things (like Tamiflu and CS) but didn’t want to take on N95s.
I haven’t bought one and don’t plan on it. I have other plans.
Glad I havent spent a fortune on the masks!!!
Social distancing is probably going to work better than technology. SIP is really hard work and probably more reliable.
Sorry that we had to learn from your bad experiences. I guess the good news is you found it before it got much worse. There are some horror sotires about mold, especially in the humid south. After seeing Osterholm talking about masks on Oprah I also thought that masks would only do so much good unless your were properly fitted to go walking in space, and who the he!! can afford that?! On top of the fact that you can’t get repirators for kids. So, we have some, lots of gloves, etc. Just doing the best we can…
BB, glad you got your mold problem resolved, thanks for post all, pfwag,
In the hospital, there are different kinds of precautions a patient is put under, corresponding to the kind of PPE the staff needs. The type of respirator/mask required seems (healthcare worker needs to varify) more related to how a disease spreads than to its type of causitive agent (ie virus bacteria). For example, TB, a bacteria, is spread in tiny particles that are small enough to stay suspended in the air for long time. TB patients are under aerosol precations. Aerosol precations are more rigourous than droplet precautions, where droplets can be spread contining the virus or bacteria that only stay in the air for a short while when the patient coughs sneezes talks. Droplets are larger.
Thus, I don’t agree with Bill’s contractor friends, that TPTB are trying to lull us into a false sense of security in suggesting p95. I have read that influenza doesn’t spread by aerosol usually, it spreads mostly via droplets (ie droplet precautions not aerosol precations in the hospital). So even tho the viruses are teeny-tiny, smaller than the pores of N-95, the majority will be held back by N-95 mask and three feet of social distancing. Not quite “Russion Roulette” but not a sure thing.
I don’t know how much more protective N-100 masks are. I think the masks I used in the hospital were N-95. I have found N-100 masks MUCH harder to find, even at Home Depot, etc. I think the PTB say N-95 because it’s more common. But I agree that one should not be lulled into a false sense of security, SIP is best, only going out in emergencies, staying as far away from others as possible, with Best mask possible.
Was healthcare worker, am bit rusty tho, need a nurse to varify…
I say this because people said on this thread “oh I’m glad not to have spent a ton of money on masks”…I don’t think it’s that bad and don’t want newbies to be discouraged in getting hold of any masks they can. As someone said, they are better than nothing. You might need to go out, just get the best masks you can and know nothing is 100% except isolation.
so, in summary, I believe from healthcare perspective a N-95 mask will help you not getting infected ALOT, versus NOT having a mask when it comes to being exposed…you Have to go to the Hospital, someone in the waiting room has Pandemic Flu…you want that mask. I get this idea also from extensive reading of old healthcare and mask threads where lots of MD’s and nurses and a respiratory tech posted, believe that was consensus here previously on the wikie.
Here is an excerpt from the CDC/NIOSH about masks and viruses. They recommend a filter of AT LEAST N-95 and say that higher filters will work too, but don’t necessarily do a better job because smaller particles do NOT penetrate more easily than larger particles, even though it goes against common sense. Links are included (I’m assuming the SARS info will also pertain to BF).
“Particulate respirators are also known as “air-purifying respirators” because they protect by filtering particles out of the air as you breathe. These respirators protect only against particles—not gases or vapors. Since airborne biological agents such as bacteria or viruses are particles, they can be filtered by particulate respirators. Respirators that filter out at least 95% of airborne particles during “worse case” testing using a “most-penetrating” sized particle are given a 95 rating. Those that filter out at least 99% receive a “99” rating. And those that filter at least 99.97% (essentially 100%) receive a “100” rating. Respirators in this family are rated as N, R, or P for protection against oils. This rating is important in industry because some industrial oils can degrade the filter performance so it doesn’t filter properly.* Respirators are rated “N,” if they are not resistant to oil, “R” if somewhat resistant to oil, and “P” if strongly resistant (oil proof).”
“Why are N-95 respirators most often recommended for SARS?
The CDC Guidelines for Isolation Precautions in Hospitals recommends that health care workers protect themselves from any disease spread through the air (airborne transmission) by wearing a respirator at least as protective as a fit-tested N-95 respirator. These guidelines were written before SARS was discovered, but they have been used to protect against other airborne diseases such as tuberculosis.
Can health care workers use respirators other than N-95 to protect against SARS?
Yes, workers can wear any of the types of particulate respirators for protection against SARS—if they are NIOSH-approved and if they have been properly fit-tested and maintained. All of the NIOSH-approved particulate respirators protect workers against SARS as effectively as the N-95 respirators. “ http://tinyurl.com/kfjvb (www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/topics/respirators/factsheets/respsars.html)
“How effective are the Part 84 filter respirators against particles smaller than 0.3 micrometer in diameter?
The 0.3-micrometer diameter used in the certification testing is approximately the most penetrating particle size for particulate filters. Although it seems contrary to expectation, smaller particles do not penetrate as readily as 0.3-micrometer particles. Therefore, these respirators will filter all other particle sizes at least as well as the certified efficiency level.” http://www.cdc.gov/NIOSH/appndxe.html
I still think that if, heaven forbid, a member of any one of our families gets sick with BF, the caretaker is going to be exposed to this virus, mask or not. (Picture millions of viruses shed with coughing and sneezing.) And I think it is cruel and unusual punishment for the sick person to be expected to wear a mask to protect the caretaker, and would it be much of a protection anyway?
My two cents, I have purchased several p-100 filters and the accompanying masks if I have to venture out during SIP. I wear this mask most days I work in the organic chem lab. First because most of the drugs I deal with are unknown and you dont want to find out its not good for you by inhaling some and second my filter has a lower level organic vapor cartridge attached to it. We use acetone all day long to clean glassware and I cant stand the smell but this little filter has been trucking for well over a year and it works great. Now I replace the external p-100 regularly and have never had any problems with it restricting my breathing or anything. My complaint and I hope none of you get to experience this is that after you wear it for several hours or even mins depending on the temp, water vapor will begin to build up in the mask to unbelievable levels. Its quite annoying and I dont relish the idea of having to wear a mask that I couldn’t take off for undetermined periods. I order most of my masks direct from 3M. There are several other sources online and I have yet to not be able to find them when needed. There are less people buying them than you would think. I completely agree that a battery pack belt mounted respirator is the way to go as it would be more comfortable and I believe you can get better filtration with a HEPA filter but dont quote me on that. The problem with that is the batteries dont last long at all I think its 8 hours per $120 battery. Plus for those of you w/o solar or some other way to recharge these batteries then what are you going to do? Not to mention…ok I just looked it up; the first catalog I opened a belt mounted deal would cost upwards of $700 for bare bones model. But whats your life worth?
sorry about the surprise with the new house BB About the PPE: N99/P100 masks have been used to prevent viral infection in HCW’s for a long time and seem to be effective if used correctly.
Jewel – at 09:56 - You are correct that a caregiver would be exposed to the virus, mask or no and that a mask might not offer much protection to a caregiver. My understanding from reading the NIOSH/CDC website (see links in my previous post) is that that masks are considered a *minimum* level of protection and should not be used alone without taking other precautions, such as the standard hospital hygiene protocols of gloves, handwashing, etc.
I’m not in the health care field, but I noticed someone else here made a comment about the psychological effects of wearing a mask (Grace RN – at 21:42). If I were the patient, I don’t think I would mind wearing a mask, at least, I don’t think I would interpret it as cruel and unusual punishment. Am I missing something here?
Also, I notice that the decision to wear a mask depends a lot on who will be wearing the mask and under what conditions, for example, if you are a caregiver your decision to wear a mask will depend on different criteria than someone who is SIP and needs to make an emergency trip to the store, pharmacy, hospital, etc.
Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 10:00
Thanks for that info. Did you purchase the full-face mask with filter cartridges for venturing out when SIP, or are your masks the disposable kind?
knowall-
I guess I was thinking that if I was the sick party I think a mask would make me feel very claustrophobic, expecially if I was having trouble breathing. I would hope though that I would be aware of trying to protect my caregiver (assuming I wasn’t delirious) by coughing/sneezing into tissues and disposing of them properly.
I totally agree with you that wearing masks when having to go out in public for any reason would be a prudent thing to do, especially when paired with social distancing.
Jewel – at 10:29
Oh, I see. I’d probably feel the same way about wearing a mask if I were sick and not delirious, too. Also, I just realized that I haven’t read any of the posts on caring for flu patients and I don’t even know if its recommended that BOTH patient AND caregiver wear masks . . . do you know if that’s the protocol? Maybe only the caregiver is supposed to wear a mask if its an at-home situation. So much to learn . . .
The masks I have I plan to wear for the first few days as everyone comes together in the “bunker” and until we are reasonably sure no one is infected by taking every ones temperature. After that I do not plan to live in my mask. Since everyone seems to be in agreement about flu only being transmitted through droplets, I figured as long as I stay in my house I will be “safe”. I would wear the mask if I had to venture out for some unforeseen reason or when I though it was “over” and went out to see for myself or had to confront an unwelcomed visitor.
As far as a patient wearing a mask. The kind I have thats rubber with changeable filters has a simple blowout. The exhaust breath is not filtered at all. You would do much better to have the sick wear one of the disposable N95 masks that would filter both directions.
Do not rely on your mask to give 100% protection as it will not. Nothing is 100% thats just the way it is. Its a modicum of protection, its better than some things and a lot better than nothing.
Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 11:10
Your plan sounds very well-thought-out and logical. It also seems logical that if a patient and caregiver both wear disposable N-95 (or N-100) masks, it would reduce the caregiver’s exposure more than if only the caregiver were wearing a mask.
After reading this thread, I’ve changed my mind about the importance of wearing masks: even though the disposable N-95 and N-100′s may not guarantee much protection its better than nothing. There may be a lack of research evidence proving their efficacy, but they are relatively inexpensive for the extra security IMO. The full-face respirators with cartridges (and a suit) offer the most protection, if you can afford them and dare to wear them in public.
I’m going to stick with the disposable kind because, assuming that we will be taking precautions before most other people, I don’t think I’d have the courage to wear a full-face mask in public, especially in the beginning stages of the pandemic, for fear of the reaction it would cause. However, I also realize that the beginning stages might be the most important time to wear a full-face mask if you have one.
I do have to say one thing, and I saw this on another board. If, at the beginning of any pandemic, you were out and about and wearing any type of mask…you would NOT have to worry about social distancing. Most people would see you and stay well clear of your path!! ;-)
I agree with Bill, when the people I work with who dont work in the lab see me wearing a filter mask they cant seem to get away fast enough. I feel like some brightly colored poisonous animal. Those fluorescent pink filters just seem to scream extreme danger stay away!
Bronco Bill – at 12:24 and Annoyed Max- Not mad yet – at 13:16
LOL, excellent point. I never considered that benefit of mask-wearing, suddenly I’m not concerned about public reaction anymore . . .I almost want to start wearing one now (I work in NYC). I think we can safely say that the “keep-away factor” should increase the efficiency of any filter mask at least 99 percent!
I wouldn’t be so quick to write the masks off folks. The Toronto SARS experience showed PPE (masks etc) did help slow spread when used early in the epidemic. HCW’s (myself included) are constantly exposed to many virii. Hepatitis, HIV, HPV, HTLV etc, etc are very common and when any invasive treatments are performed (from blood draws to major surgery), HCW’s are exposed. The reason HCW’s are able to stay healthy is because of PPE, including the use of simple masks IMO. Spending hours hovering over the open body of a surgical patient with blood and tissues being constantly aerosolized would surely produce significant disease in HCW’s if standardized universal precautions were not followed.
If dealing with suspected or confirmed panflu patients (ie. sick), I will be definitely be using a cartridge type mask for sure. This is a lethal little bugger at this point. Think of it like a lethal gas. Concentration (ie. cooped up in a sick room etc) and duration of exposure are critical.
MAV in Colorado – at 15:34
Thanks for your feedback. I just finished reading some info on the CDC website about SARS and the use of masks. It seems as though there was some suspicion among researchers that SARS was airborne in addition to being carried by droplets, but there was a lack of enough evidence to prove it. http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/SARS/respirators.htm Since so little is known about H5N1, this is another argument for why it might be wise to invest in a cartridge-style mask in addition to the disposable kind, if one can afford it.
If my employer designates me as “essential personnel” and I am required to come in to work, I plan to be masked and gloved and carry a spray bottle of bleach solution. Since my primary job is related to the recruitment of new students, i figure they will decide to let me take leve time pretty quickly.
Great discussion and comments. I noticed that no one has mentioned much, if anything, about eye protection. Any thoughts or comments on eye exposure or protection? Is there much vulnerability through the eyes?
Beachball – at 18:21 --- We’ve had a couple of discussions on other threads about eye protection. Although I’m not a doctor, it’s my opinion that a virus could infect a person through their eyes, but other’s disagree. It’s one of those things that you have to decide on yourself, I guess…
bump - I missed this thread when it was first posted. Bumping in case anyone else did, too.
Closed to maintain Forum speed.