I always liked XIX in roman numerals.
What?!? Are you trying to catch up to the Aus/NZ number of threads? LOL!!!
XIX is pronounced Zik, BTW, even though the Romans had no equivalent for our letter “Z” ;-)
This is why BB almost always wins at Trivial Pursuit
Tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock……………………………….
Well, that was cryptic enough to be unreadable, MM.
what was that with monotreme and anon_22 ? Can we have a short summary for those who missed it ? Will monotreme return ? Is he on another board now ?
SUMMARY:
Monotreme started a thread that, when I read it, suggested that the Chinese government had taken actions in relation to H5N1 and a possible pandemic with deliberate intent to harm the rest of the world. I thought it was unacceptable for this forum and took it offline while waiting to consult with the other mods. Monotreme was informed immediately of my decision and my reasons. The other moderators support my decision, and after a number of hours, the thread was put back with a disclaimer that the opinions do not reflect those of and are not supported by the mods. I apologised for taking the thread offline for those hours, Monotreme was invited to re-write the thread if he did not intend to imply the Chinese government had acted with intent to do harm, with the same content if he wanted but taking care that the meaning was clear. He has decided he will take a break from writing on this forum.
We are asking participants to use words with care when writing about controversial or sensitive issues. This position is no different from what we have always taken, just that because of this incident we are now making it explicit.
This subject was open for discussion for a period of 24 hours. That timeframe has now expired, and the subject is closed.
Thank you.
summary of the SUMMARY : differences about censorship at fw.
still curious, where he is posting now…
~~mous --- You’ll just have to go look around. He doesn’t check in here to announce where he is…
where is that China-thread ?
It’s here
Be warned, though, that we are not going to re-open that discussion. Thank you!
The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam-
“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all your Piety nor Wit Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all your Tears wash out a Word of it.”
sheesh.
Who’s THAT guy and what’s he know about Bird Flu? Come’on I want quotes from people who matter now, who are interested in bird flu; not quotes from dusty manuscripts with no bearing on anything other than trying to sustain an argument. No piety, no luring and no tears.
That was me!
Perhaps, “Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it,” would be more apt here.
Guess that depends on who’s history……since I believe history repeating itself is for the most part a good thing!
Now kids…behave yourselves! ;-)
Monotreme did have something valuable to say. People are naturally curious about the remainder of his message. This is not to re-open anything, but it would be gracious of the mods to pass on notice if he does start his own site. I know the China thread has been on my mind for days, and I am not into the more serious and technical threads on the wiki. The entire world situation political and ecological concerns me, not H5N1 alone in its varied manifestations. It is part of the entire Chinese picture. Not for here, perhaps not for this wiki. It hasn’t been swept under the rug, the thread opened the door, and its there for anyone to peruse.
diana, I expect that he will be back from time to time, and we are on good terms. I also offered to post links to him should he either start his own blog or post elsewhere.
Can we bury the dead horse now, instead of just kicking it ?
Fine by me, BG - I’m just sorry the horse died in the first place.
Is Melanie still a moderator here? I haven’t seen her either here or on her blog.
Cooker, she’s been very ill & hasn’t posted in awhile.
Well, I think TomDVM may be upset also, he hasn’t been here all day.
I hate to make light of it all, because I love TomDVM, but maybe he was tending that horse that died that Bird Guano – at 14:46 refered to. :-) Could be on his way home from the funeral now…..hope he’s here “with bells on” tomorrow as the expression goes. It’s been a day for cliches.
Tom is a large animal vet, after all . . .
I have to admit I was amazed by the entire uproar. I certainly hope that the same delicacy that is expected of us in referring to the government of the People’s Republic of China will be applied to the governments of the United States, United Kingdom, France, Germany, WHO . . . aw heck, let’s just love EVERYBODY!
(slapping myself)
There I go just being a naive American again.
Looks like there are enough cliches to go around for everyone here. I think I will just go back to lurking lest I cause a thread yank and we all unravel on the floor . . .
Jefiner – at 17:42
If there is a good side to these occassional upsets on the wiki, it certainly has to be the insightful and amusing comments that follow.
HillBilly Bill: Also, the site becomes less crowded as people, some of our most thoughtful contributors, depart. This will increase our refresh times.
I, for one, already sense the void created by the apparent departure of “some of our most thoughtful contributors”. I hope they’ll return.
Bottom line for me:
Are you here helping? That is all that really matters on this site. I’ve got family and kin to protect, and I’m afraid time is getting short.
It’s what they do, not what they say.
diana – at 13:58, you might like www . terminusreality . com along with this one. That one also has political and ecological threads in addition to H5N1. (Don’t get me wrong, anyone, FW is a great forum too! Maybe the best for H5N1 info and talk.)
OKbirdwatcher – at 20:47 --- Absolutely ditto. I for one very much miss “anonymous”. ;-)
Under The Radar – at 21:14 --- Maybe the best for H5N1 info and talk Not. IS the best! JMHO, of course…
Hi everyone.
Just so everyone knows, I haven’t made a “Farewell, cruel forum” speech. I will be back every once in a while, as DemFromCT has indicated. I am working on my site which will include a blog and some web pages. I’ll send DemFromCT the URL when it’s done. It will be very rough at first, so don’t expect much. If it works at all, it’ll be a miracle.
I also want to make sure everyone knows that my problem is strictly with anon_22. I have nothing but the highest respect for the other moderators. I think FluWiki will continue to be great place for collaborative work on preparedness and will continue to recommend it to others.
I think anon_22 is highly intelligent and agree with her on many issues. However, I think our world-views are fundamentally incompatible. So it goes. With respect to the thread that started this, she and I disagree on what happened and why it happened. But I don’t want to waste any bandwidth on this subject here. I’ll have a place at my site where people can ask me questions on whatever occurs to them, immodestly called, “Ask Monotreme”. I’m hoping that discussion of these problems on this thread will end so that people can get back to working on preparedness.
Good luck to you all.
Even though I’m just another lurker, I read this site very regularly for updates and new information and it’s very hard not to chime-in with one’s “two cents” being that fluwiki has been such a great one stop/one shop place for both preparedness and the intelligent discussion that the science threads generated…the later helping a great deal to promote understanding. Thank you to those (two:-)contributors for giving such thoughtful and thorough explanations in the past… Will miss those for sure! (..back to lurkers mode)
Monotreme,
For what it’s worth, you and I may disagree, but I wish you well in whatever you do. And please do chime in when you feel like it, especially with the virology stuff. There aren’t many contributors of your calibre on that.
“Ask Monotreme”.
LOL
I like that. of course, we’ll link. ;-)
anon_22 – at 22:01
Monotreme,
For what it’s worth, you and I may disagree, but I wish you well in whatever you do. And please do chime in when you feel like it, especially with the virology stuff. There aren’t many contributors of your calibre on that.
Yes, you’ve certainly seen to that.
Comments like that do not contribute to our mission and are best ignored.
disgruntled-
I’ll agree with your comment. While I have much respect for the good people here, I will say this has upset, and surprised me. It takes all kinds to make this political world go around, and I really do not think Monotreme was so far out of line. I did not take his opinion as being offensive, or disrespectful. After all, we’ve been reading everything he stated for awhile now, it isn’t made up news. I really cannot agree with the uproar. That just MHO.
If one would like to understand the possible reasons for the conflict between Monotreme and anon_22 please read on this link for a few minutes. It addresses issues relating to Western versus Eastern philosophy and thought processes. Thanks.
Religious differnces don’t belong here, and if that’s the sum total of this, well…
DemFromCT-with all due respect kind sir,(and I mean it), I guess we need to differentiate what exactly is freedom of speech on the wiki, and what isn’t. Monotreme stated his opinion on the subject, and I was glad to see the disclaimer, because for the most part, we at this great place state our opinions. People get upset here all the time by someones words.
I’m not trying to upset any one. I’m just stating my two cents. However, I hope this doesn’t become common practice. I would really hate to leave the wiki.
cottontop,
I don’t want to open this again, but if you want to differentiate what exactly is freedom of speech, in that particular episode, the specific issue was whether accusing a foreign government of taking actions in relation to H5N1 and a possible pandemic with the intention to cause harm to the rest of the world is acceptable rhetoric on this forum.
All the mods have voted No to that.
And, you are right, religious differences don’t belong here at all.
I just want to make clear that this was a very specific event, not a blanket policy of not allowing freedom of speech about the chinese governments or any governments.
As I said before, opinions, criticisms, analysis, news, rumours, debates, etc are welcome. When it comes to accusations or allegations, especially regarding intent to harm, we are asking participants to be aware that, as Dem said, deliberately inflammatory language is not helpful.
anon_22
My bottom line on this, is that his comment was his opinion, and that’s all there is to this whole thing. Nothing more. I’m not trying to start anything, anon_22. I value your thoughts as much as I valued momotreme’s. But I don’t believe in censorship.
If I may add my thoughts…
I have read fluwiki threads for more than a year. I did not really partipate until recently. I would only post the studies I found while doing research for classes.
I have watched the conflicts come and go, always thinking that both sides make very good points… many times they also have facts to back them up.
People with good ideas, good conversation, good argument, have posted here…. got mad… and some left… This has happened on many discussion boards.
I respect both Monotreme and Anon_22, but I do not always agree with either of them. That said… I would be very remiss if I did not add how much I have learned from them, also.
Because of this type of conflict, several months ago, I started thinking about the differences we (everyone) have in our view of the world, in how we would deal with crisis, and how we would respond to the devastation of a pandemic.
This is one reason why I thought it would be a good idea to start a section on cultural considerations…. So that we could seek ways to help each other. (communities at large).
That does not mean, I think there is a cultural issue between Monontreme and Anon_22…… It just means, we all have our perception of “how the world turns”…. If we start ignoring the fact that we are all different, instead of learning tolerance of those differences… Are we going to be able to make the world a safer place?
I, too, have taken offense of something that was written to me. I had to cool off and think about what that person was really saying. It is not too hard to look through the eyes of another……
(as long as it is not politics…)
:)
cottontop,
As Dem said, there was never complete freedom of speech on this site. As is the case in real life - you don’t expect to be able to say whatever comes to your head and not have consequences. We make judgments about what is acceptable, polite, safe, appropriate, legal, etc many times a day, whenever we open our mouths to say something.
Writing online sometimes makes people feel secure from consequences. That can be good, but sometimes someone else has to make those judgments, and that someone would be one of the mods, who have to be responsible for more than just what one person feels like saying. We don’t like to do that, in fact, its the part of the job that we hate most. But it is a necessary evil, and we try to do as little of it as possible.
I know its hard to reconcile these things sometimes, and we don’t expect that we can please everyone. But the bottomline is, there’s a virus that might kill millions of people. Come a pandemic, there will be far harder battles to fight, and this will be so insignificant we will wonder how on earth we ever spent so much energy on it.
:-)
Unfortunately, I think that one aspect of this pandemic that we will not be able to get away from will be the many accusations of intent to do harm that come out of it. That happened during and after the events in New Orleans, and it will happen many times in the days, weeks, and months of a pandemic. I fear, in fact, that there is not much we can do to prevent that kind of issue from being the ultimate issue of the event - the major topic that is discussed in the press, discussed online, fought over, and the one that will lead to the most tabloid of headlines as the argument potentially sparks a tinder box in some area or other. I wish this issue - the accusation that anyone or any party had intent to do harm during this pandemic - will become an insignificant one, but I don’t think it is going away. With the birth of the pandemic will come a heap of blame, and that will be much easier to discuss than what happened to your neighbor’s child.
Florida Girl- Well put, and I enjoy the new thread you’ve started. Keep up the wonderful work.
anon_22- this will be all I have to say, and I hope there is no ill feelings. But I have learned a lesson here, as I always do.
Pixie, sadly I do agree partly with what you have to say. Let’s just hope we can temper some of that, cos there will be so much trauma everywhere I just wish, well, sometimes I don’t even know what I wish. Maybe just to wish this whole thing away…
cottontop, no ill feeling at all. We are all in this together, let’s just keep at it.
I am being absolutely honest here. Please don’t hurt me. There have been some posts on here about certain organizations withholding sequences, etc. The thread in question stated (if I read it right) that a certain country, we’ll call it Nonwikiniestein, knows more than they are letting on so they can have some sort of vaccine head start. All very conspiratorial and unable to be proved. Do we, as a wiki, want to address any of this in any other way so as not to start an international incident? Is a disclaimer at the top a thread enough to allow this type of conversation to continue, without accusations of course? I guess I just get so confused about these little dust ups. I am a small fish in a big pond here. Seems to me that these tangles happen between the big fish more than the rest and I just sit back in amazement because usually just trying to figure out what is being said is hard enough. I rarely take offense to anything on here and realize that no one here speaks for all of us.
On the fence and leaning – at 23:34
Good question, and no offense at all.
A lot of people are asking the Chinese government to hand over data regarding H5N1, sequences, or samples. It is not a forbidden topic of discussion. In fact, it is a very important topic of discussion, because co-operation between governments will go a long way towards the world’s ability to prevent or mitigate a pandemic. Even if I personally don’t need to know it, the top researchers should certainly have access to as much information as possible, seeing that China at the moment is where an important strain or variant is appearing for which we know so little.
So do go ahead and discuss these issues. What was a problem was the inference that they were doing things deliberately to harm the world, which was a different ballgame altogether.
Here’s a simpler way of thinking about it: discuss, give opinions, etc but try not to make accusations of intent. Cos bottomline? You really can’t tell people’s intention, can you? Which means that it will almost always become unsubstantiated allegations.
That really is the only thing we are asking you to be conservative about. It doesn’t mean you need to change your content, just the way you say it. It will make the mods lives a lot easier, among many things. (I lost close to 2 days of productive work cos of this, but its ok, it needed to be done. But just to show you what I mean, you know.)
Anon22, you and I have not spoken directly in the past, and I have nothing but admiration for your work in the field. However, I think that your perspective on how those of us in the so called “Western World” shoulder the responsibility of freedom of ideas and freedom of expression is unfair, to say the least. What passed here was debate: question and answer, clarification and explanation. And sometimes debate is messy, ugly, unreasonable and illogical. But in the current world view, one person’s perspective does not a national policy make.
I can grasp the complexity of the political nebula that is the PRC; my grand parents (Congregational missionaries), my uncle and several of their friends disappeared in China in 1949. We never knew what happened to them, or who was the instrument of their deaths—the Communists or the Nationalists. It makes me appreciate the relative safety in which I live, and how quickly that safety could vanish in the face of a disaster like a pandemic.
With that in mind, I am concerned with the brain drain away from the wiki. It could get kind of lonely in here. How do we generate ideas in an echo chamber? What do we need to do to get along, cooperate and problem solve?
I know you stated that the discussion was closed. It is just something to think about.
Jefiner,
The discussion about the specifics of the event might be closed, or almost, but discussions about the way forward certainly would be the most important thing now.
I wonder if you know exactly where the line was:
the line was on accusation of intention to harm/
(Just checking, cos I think most of the difficulty came from this misunderstanding.)
It was a single item. It doesn’t generalize into other things. The only reason why it became such a big problem (at least from my POV) was because we failed to agree that it was possible to re-write all of the content ie without dropping anything, without making such an accusation.
Jefiner,
btw, it wasn’t just me. When the mods discussed this, they are agreed on this.
Let me give an analogy. It’s one thing to say incompetence etc caused so many people to lose their lives during Katrina. It’s quite another to say somebody did something with the intention of causing those lives to be lost.
Sorry to sidetrack this scintillating thread with such boring matters, but mods, is it normal for posters to have access to the following screen? I have hit some sequence of keystrokes twice in the past couple of weeks and this edit screen appears. It seems to be a method of altering the posts in the given thread with a “save” button at the bottom of the screen. Seems as if this shouldn’t be happening. (Below is an excerpt of what displayed; contents included the entire news thread but I truncated so this post wouldn’t be a mile long).
Editing {Forum.NewsReportsForNovember6}
‘’ !!!!06 November 2006
(If you want any of the links to open in a new window, hold down the shift key and then click on the link)
Well, that didn’t display the straight text but the formatting. Anyway…you get the idea. I am hitting the hay. If you need me to try to explain the keystrokes I used, I can e-mail someone tomorrow a.m.
Edna, can you email Dem (cos I gotta go soon) with the keystrokes that you used to get to this?
holy aclu, batman.
hitler caused millions of lives to be lost. did i hurt anyones feelings??? do i need to hire an attorney? will i be banned for saying that?
i’m going to go look for monotreme….
The Moderators have decided to close the discussion on the “China topic” without addressing my concerns and then made that decision non negotiable. I tend to take my time and think things though. I wish they were not in such a rush. I don’t take well to dictates that serve to cut off debate.
The moderators also want this site to remain readable by the population of Communist China and have a moderator who must temper our discussion by very real concerns for family who live in China. I would not have allowed that set of circumstances to come about nor do I agree with that desire for readability on the part of the moderators. I will not allow the reach of the Chinese Communist Government to stop what I have to say nor the way I say it.
This site no longer (it may never have supported) supports the Western World’s collective view of freedom of speech. I am an American who values freedom of speech who no longer feels welcome here.
I always use good taste and respect for my fellow posters and try to be constructive in the best way I can. I can’t operate under the specific conditions that you have set out that limits my ability to speak truth to power.
There are powers in the world that need to have accusations leveled at them as the starting points of a discussion; my own government in the United States is a prime example. As far as culture is concerned, reality is what you make of it. I hope that you don’t come to live in the culture that you advocate.
I am not sure if I can continue to support the efforts of this site. I have suddenly become very uncomfortable here. For the foreseeable future…Dude has left the building.
Ps. I am not a drama queen and I am an adult and this is not just any issue…
Jefiner,
I missed that bit about grasping political realities. With your background, you might be able to understand this, as one of the considerations. I was born in Hong Kong, which makes me a Chinese citizen by default (also British, but that’s a different story), I have family and friends etc etc.
Not so long ago, an attempt was made by the Hong Kong government to pass an anti-sedition law that included, among other things, failure to report other people using language that the central government considered seditious (the definition of said word being up to the said government), even if those people were foreigners, and even if the act happened overseas. A lot of people went on protest marches, and the government had to back down. The issue is now put aside, but by constitution HK needs to put up a version of anti-sedition law in the near future. And, oh, btw, the old version? It could be retro-active. So I’m sitting here, and thinking, when are they going to bring that back, what would the new set of laws be like, and would those also be retro-active?
For more information, follow the above link, especially look at the last 2 items under ‘concerns’.
The other mods don’t think my position compromises the quality of the content here. They probably also think that it might be a good idea if I didn’t get into trouble.
I, OTOH, think it’s a good idea if I didn’t get into trouble for a cause that I didn’t pick.
All this just by way of background…
There may come a day when I can’t do this. That time is not here yet. I hope it never comes. I hope the virus disappears first….
Dude, I will let the other mods debate those points with you. I have disclose all there is to disclose, far more than i ever thought was necessary. There was never ever even for one minute any doubt in my mind that I am not able to provide the kind of openness and quality of debate and information required for this site. However, as I said, I leave that for the other mods to judge.
But, Dude, I have a different question for you. Do you think it is better for freedom in the big wide world (not just for Americans) that someone like me can continue to offer the best of what I’ve got here than not?
Dude, would it have been ok for someone to say the mayor of New Orleans did something deliberately so that those people would die? Would it have been censorship to say it’s not helpful to say things like that?
Cos that is what happened.
Dude,
I can’t operate under the specific conditions that you have set out that limits my ability to speak truth to power.
Do YOU know what the truth is? Do you know whether the Chinese government took actions intentionally to harm the rest of the world?
Cos that is the thing under discussion. Not the covering up of truth. Not censorship of truth. But a request to make statements that do not cross the line into unsubstantiated allegations of intent to harm.
It is a very simple problem. It’s only complicated if you didn’t know exactly what the issue was.
I’m going to put this in bold and ask everyone to ask themselves these questions:
Dude, would it have been ok for someone to say the mayor of New Orleans did something deliberately so that those people would die? Would it have been censorship to say it’s not helpful to say things like that?
What balance should we strike between free speech and responsible speech?
The standard that you decide is appropriate for the mayor of New Orleans should also be the same standard that is appropriate for anyone else.
I really think the argument about the right to free speech is a red herring. This has always been a moderated forum just as the wiki has always been subject to editorial direction. That’s never been a secret.
In the past, we’ve closed down any number of threads that we felt were off-topic. We’ve also closed down discussions that were excessively political because it’s felt that partisan political discussion works against what we’re trying to accomplish here.
In short, we’ve never run this forum as a complete free speech zone. And I’ll add that those forums that I’ve seen where anything goes have sooner or later become places where I’d rather not spend my time and I wouldn’t want to be associated with one. Trust me, there are some real cesspools out there.
What’s at issue here isn’t whether or not we moderate the forum because we will, as we always have. What’s at issue is trying to find the right balance between allowing as much expression as possible and keeping the focus of the site and fulfilling its mandate.
It’s not correct to say that we’ve removed anyone’s right to free speech because in terms of this forum, or any other moderated forum on the internet, in a practical sense it’s a right you’ve never really had in the first place.
If someone posted something about a named individual that was obviously libellous and I deleted it, I doubt anyone would question it. If someone insisted on posting obviously racist screeds or calls for someone’s murder, I’d ban the individual involved in a heartbeat and I doubt I’d be seeing any serious complaints about it. So obviously you don’t have the right to say just anything you please here and you’ve never had that right. This is a privately owned and operated site and we have the right to make those decisions. And as much as we try and solicit feedback from the community and incorporate that into the rules and policies that govern the place, ultimately somebody has to make those decisions. And we make them knowing full well that some people will think we’ve made one or another of them badly.
I think what’s at issue right now is whether or not a moderating decision that’s been made is too heavy handed, or more heavy handed than you’ve come to expect or would like to see. Fine. But please, let’s keep it in perspective. We have a complicated and sensitive issue and we have to try and find the right balance between what each individual wants and what we’re hoping this project will accomplish.
No one is trying to simply gag anyone else here. Monotreme, who’s at the centre of this, understands that even if he feels strongly enough about the issue to go off and start his own site so he can say what he wants to in that venue. You’ll notice he didn’t leave permanently. He’s stated at least twice that he intends to return at least from time to time. But he wants the freedom to explore a particular issue in a way that we’re not comfortable with. As we’ve always said, it’s a big internet and some of the discussions we avoid here are welcome in other places.
Maybe my own attitude is coloured by the fact that I was a blogger before this site ever opened, as well as a participant in a couple of forums where politics and controversy are the order of the day. It seems perfectly natural to me to take advantage of different websites for the strengths each one offers. If anyone feels strongly enough about what’s happened that he wants to walk away from this place permanently I think that’s really unfortunate. But if you’re doing it as a point of principle and you think you’re striking a blow for freedom of speech, you’re really not.
We’ll continue moderating and we’re going to continue to deal with the fact that running a forum like this involves compromises. Every day. Some of them are relatively easy and the vast majority agree with them. Some of them are more difficult and won’t always be popular. Alongside the principles involved is the practical business of running a site day in and day out and trying to do as much good as we can.
Monotreme - you’d be most welcome to post at CE - we’re quite proud of our Flu Clinic, and there would be no constraints upon reasonable speculative thought. :)
And about these questions, “Dude, would it have been ok for someone to say the mayor of New Orleans did something deliberately so that those people would die? Would it have been censorship to say it’s not helpful to say things like that?”
If the allegations were true, it would be far more than ok. If it were even a distinct possibility, speculation and investigation would be not just ok, but necessary. “Question Authority” is an important part of western culture.
If there were any validity to the mayor’s involvement in the causation of a potentially fatal situation, then yes, it would have been censorship to quash the issue in toto. The truth is not dependent upon being “helpful”. The truth is not always pretty, nor is it politically correct.
I understand now this turmoil to be the apparent result of anon-22 being in a precarious position, and the same for family. I am sorry that’s the reality. Some things might be necessitated by this situation, but I’m in a quandary about how much it should be allowed to influence what things are said here. It’s a horrid political situation, I understand that, but we cannot allow ourselves to be governed by that political system.
The time for this kind of argument is not now, I think. The situation regarding the warning given to US residents of Hong Kong bodes nothing good insofar as our appraisal of the progression of the disease. I think at the moment, this should be of utmost concern. I think China should be watched most closely, and I do not believe that to be a remark deserving of censorship - realism is what it is.
I’m getting annoyed. None of you get it, at least not those who posted. Whoever said anything about not watching China closely? Whoever said anything about quashing the issue it toto?
Will everyone please read what I’ve written carefully!
Clawdia, do you think the mayor of NO did something intentionally so people should die? Do you really? No if’s or but’s, do you? Because that is the question, its not, IF there is evidence. Well, there isn’t, there isn’t any evidence that the mayor plotted in that way, right? (I’m using this simply because this is exactly the same analogy, with apologies to said mayor, of course,)
So if there isn’t, but there is some concern about it, what to do?
I never asked that you shouldn’t write about it. The point has always been consistent, if you are concerned, and you don’t have very good evidence, but it is an important point, then you should write about that point, but make it in a way that does not make an accusation that you cannot substantiate.
For example, saying that I’m concerned that someone might have done something is fine. Saying someone did do that something is not fine, in the absense of evidence.
I’m sorry, Clawdia, cos it looks like I’m taking it out on you. I;m not, just that I’ve repeated this point so many times over the past few days. Either people don;t want to read it, or, what, I have no idea.
Please read carefully, it isn’t that complicated.
Friends, please, Do not believe, even for one moment, that Americans, or the west, has the corner on the fight for freedom. We fight it, many nameless people in many places, we live that fight, and we don’t need to shout it from the rooftops. We fight it with more than you can possibly imagine.
So think, before you believe than someone else has less of an investment in freedom than you do, just because they don’t wear it on their foreheads. It belittles them as well as yourself, for you to believe that without thinking.
Thanks for listening. End of rant.
anon_22, at the risk of adding fuel to the lenthly sharing of opinins, I would just like to say that your approach (and that of the other mods) makes sense to me.
None of you get it, at least not those who posted.
When I was in elementary school, sometimes one of the kids would say “It’s a FREE WORLD, you know.” Well, it isn’t. My family history means that I know it isn’t. We were lucky that a great deal of freedom existed here in the US for a long time. (I am not going to go into a rant about habeas corpus on this site, because it’s a FLU WIKI.)
I value tremendously the news and information available here regarding H5N1. Thank you to the mods for all of your hard work and time, and to all of my fellow posters and lurkers for your attention to the potential impact of a pandemic. This is NOT intended to discount the full spectrum of topics and views that ach of us cares about.
This has clearly been a challenging set of events for the wiki (actually I missed the controversy until after the fact) and I hope the spirit that first attracted me here survives. It’s late and I may not be as elequent as I would like, but I wanted to respond to the last post. Good night everyone. And thank you.
if it wasent of topic, the conspiracy (!) from the sugar industry in cooperation with the US governmnet could be discussed here, or could it? It goes something like this.. Sugar industry is historical result of slavery, and it still uses slavery. Poor farmworkers in Thaiti caught in a evil depht system prevents them from ever getting up on their feets.. The sugar producers are owned by US companies and families and has strong support in the US administration. When UN tries to take action against the global epidemic of overweight (maybe it time to declare this as well as a pandemic (like AIDS) the US representatives in UN blocked the proposistion, and removing the part of the delacration that blames, a to hughe intake of sugar (maximun income of energy should not be higher then 10% from sugar)
The result is that UN is unable to work agianst the agressive maketing of sugar vares, like softdrinks etc. This is a conspiracy good as anyone. And by the way, the UN representaive from the US is Bush god-son… This conspiracy is very visible for us in Norway. ( it is our health politicians and representatives who has been leading the fight agianst the sugar companys and their acts.. And yes its well documented.
It has been in our media for years, and it makes perfect sense.. This is only one of a number of reasons why USAs popolarity and trust is falling heavy in the european countris. Its quite like the WHO and birdflu isuses is it not? Its power, profit and hidden agandas all over.. And is also a good example of a issue I would like the tinfoil hat folks to fucus at, instead of silly stories about chemtrails etc.
I think its very hard to discuss a public (and especial global) health problem whitout involving politics.. WHO is politics.. It should be science, but as long as profitt is involved somehvere it will end up beiing politics. Now what I would like to see is a motive for China fucking up things, a motive that is stronger than incompetance and rigid power and hiearchy. Then it would make a lot of sense, and could be more easy to atack than “system weakness” But watching issues from far away allways have the risk of tunnel vision syndrome..
With the disclamimer now in place I rely think the china discusison is in place. And in regards of the riks of getting fluwiki banned in china, well ist not bannned yet, and my impresion is also that the internet banning in china is quite over-dramaticed.
Anon-22, I have to say that you have bent over backwards to make your point VERY clear. All of the mods have — I can hear the agreement in each of the mod posts — each one of you is saying the same thing and it’s very clear. It’s also very clear when someone else ‘twists’ that — like throwing out the word TRUTH as not being allowed when that was exactly what the mods were asking for was TRUTH in statements made.
To borrow a comment from this generations more favorite expressions, it’s soooo NOT about just your family, and that’s obvious to anyone who’s read this thread (all parts) without a bias to begin with.
Don’t knock yourself out trying to explain any more; you’ve done quite well and I can hear, in posts from others who disagree with you, a frustration that is coming from somewhere other than this thread……everybody comes here with “communication baggage” of some type.
Day is dawning here and nothing’s going to change their minds after a night’s sleep.
It’s NOT you or the other mods that need to continue this discussion, although I know you will.
Here’s MY baggage: Our freedom of speech was not built on a lack of consequences and all us Westerners here know that, we just tend to ignore it when something limits what we, personally want to say without consequences. I’m ashamed of the haughtiness I read in some peoples’ posts here from my country. It’s no wonder the rest of the world hates us. Sweet invites over to someone else’s threads doesn’t cut it when I’ve read time and again about discord in these other places as well. None of these places is perfect, but you’d think we were all, on this election day, running for the office of the best friendliest website in the free world.
Anon-22 and mods, you’ve done a very good job of being clear, whether people agree with you or not, and whether they do or not doesn’t matter. It’s YOUR forum, your parameters we have all been guided by all this time. Keep up the good work.
anon_22:
A practical question. Is it not simply possible to recuse yourself from any guilt by association by refraining to join in on any debate that you think is too heated? Or, would bringing to light a contrary view in that debate not be enough to establish your lack of alliance with the particular views being shared?
This would be similar to your refraining from joining a particular discussion about which you’ve been privy to private information, given to you on condition that it remain private, for example.
Does your status as a moderator here, in your view, give some parties on the outside the idea that even if you do not join a particular conversation, that you give the ideas expressed there tacit approval? And, is that so even if you publicly disagree?
Pixie, that last paragraph is a real risk. And it doesn’t really matter what ‘our’ views on the topic are. I think the frustrations come out about folks just assuming their world view must be the correct one. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. and take the time to think through what it means if the other guy is correct. We try to do that, and then make the call. We try to keep as light a hand as possible. But please reread pogge’s post above. If this comes down to a free speech issue and nothing more, we all lose.
It’ll be interesting to see how people react if the Feds or some of the senior scientists ever want to post here. Why would they if we can’t show a modicum of self-restraint, always preferred to mod intervention?
In any case, Monotreme wrote me with the new URL for his site that he’s trying to put together. It’s still in beta, but that’s where you can find him.
anon_22:
BTW, I ask the questions I have asked above because I found myself in a similar position on very similar issues. As a founding member of another flu forum, I found that others there wanted to elevate someone who made what I believe were heinous statements about the U.S. on several occasions. (The individual then independently began making such statements on behalf of the site and those who ran it.) I felt that I could not be associated with that point of view, which might have been implied to some by my continued participation in that forum. Many conversations were had on the subject, and in the end my decision was to walk. Some of those who have remained, and continue to associate with that particular individual, have family members who have potential security conflicts in being closely associated with an individual who voices such opinions, but it is their own decision whether to stay or to go and they have decided to stay. For me, the issue would have been a bit different if the individual was to remain just a simple poster, but even then the question as to whether the tone was becoming too strident was one that I was going to have to think about. I will say that I always considered it a personal decision as to the continuance of my participation there, and others were free to proceed as they see fit, it was simply I who could not continue.
DemFromCT – at 07:44:
I completely agree, as I have said to anon_22, and I do believe that there are ways to say what we wish to say that can be more obscure and less inflamatory if we only make a simple effort.
These are really difficult issues, but there is a bridge to solving them somewhere I think if just a bit of consideration and care is made. I realize that anon_22 has tried to explain, but some of these issues are very unfamiliar ones to those of us in this country, and are hard to grasp.
Pixie, Let me just answer your question by referring you to my post at 00:55 and the link there. Thanks!
anon_22 - at 7:53
Yes, I understand, and I hope others do too. I do not want you to have to make the decision I had to make because your insight and knowledge is much too valuable.
Has anyone here, heard that the government is going to be revealing new information after today ( election day )..? I was called last night by a relative who is a doctor, as well as a sisiter in law who works the ICU at a local hospital, saying such a thing is going to happen. They were all warned yesterday. The USA Govt. Does not want to say this info before voting day. I was warned by the doctor ( relative to start preparing Now…and to say nothing about this as well, but thought you might all want to know.
nann - at 08:06 - I wish you could have elaborated a little more on the subject matter. New information on what?
Bird flu…I was not supposed to tell anyone…but people should know
Explicit SPAM on Menstruation Suggestion thread
Nann, can you post on the Rumors thread?
DemFromCT – at 07:44
Thanks for posting a link to my site. It seems to work, but is pretty cludgy right now. It needs a lot of work. I will work on it a little bit each day and will welcome any suggestions for improvement.
attach a forum to your site, so we can all eventually move over there… No censorship, no moderation, no work.
As I was madly working on my self-requested test on bird flu on another thread, I found the links below which are the United Nations Preparedness Guides for UN staff in three languages.
I wanted to put them up on the Wiki while I was still on them, but I am at loss to decide in which chapter to put them. They are pdf files and 20 pages long, dated June 2006. They contain: - basic info on BF; - what the UN is doing for its staff in case of a pandemic; - a list of 6 weeks recommended supplies in food, water and medicines; - recommendations for travel in outbreak areas.
Would you have a quick look and decide where they would best fit, please?
English version 1: http://tinyurl.com/y5z7zv
English version 2: http://tinyurl.com/yl84mo - I could not see at first glance the difference between the two
French version: http://tinyurl.com/wyyb3
Spanish version: http://tinyurl.com/ymts2u
Thank you
anonymous – at 11:00
Don’t bet on it. There’s no place like that except Heaven & even it’s moderated!
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 11:05
LOL
FrenchieGirl – at 11:04
I will take a look (and thank you!), although in all honesty, today I’m a bit overextended for whatever reason ;-)
(Just wanted to say, I can’t post at Monotreme’s new site; a problem I’ve run into before with my computer; I type the character-recognition code in correctly, and the blog-thing says I don’t… wonder if it’s my browser, or what? )
I’ve run into that on occasion, though not often, with other commenting systems that use a code like that. If I start over completely, such that a different code comes up, I usually get in the second time.
well, I’d still been no go after 3 tries so, I thought I’d ask if it was because I’m too inept to switch to Firefox or something ;-)
thanks anyway
Had no trouble. Wished Monotreme well. Asked if anyone has sent him a philadendron plant yet. They used to be the inevitable feature with hugh bows at any grand opening, though locally they have escalated to florals worthy of the entry hall at the Metropolitan Museam in NYC.. .. I was happy to see Anon-22 at 00.55 explaining the attempt of the gov. to put into place anti-sedition laws in Hong Kong. It makes things clearer as to her perspective. Two good individuals, I wish them both well.
Anon_22 - I do get it - I totally agree with everything you (and the other moderators) have said. This is a privately owned site that is intended to assist people prepare for and understand a pandemic. As such we are fortunate to even have a discussion forum per se - and we must respect that opportunity to hold discussions - free from political, religious and cultural bias.
This is a truely international site that is viewed by peoples unknown. If we want them to assist us with our understanding and preparations, we must make it as easy as possible for them to do so. We must also respect all international law or ‘norms’ on how and what we communicate. (Quite frankly I was appalled when I read the thread that has caused this ‘issue’ - it was destructive - not constructive - to the cause of the Wiki.)
FWIW, I have given up making comments on most things as I am sick of being shot down - well that’s how it feels anyway. So, I will just continue to take the global community approach to assisting others as best as I can.
Thank you for all that you have done and continue to do. Long may it continue.
Everyone,
I am so deeply saddened by the apparent departure (unannounced mostly) of so many of the great minds here. We are diminished without them. I have been watching fluwikie for about 2 years now—though only posting for a few weeks.
With the departures, I am no longer convinced that the fluwikie forum will be the first place we will get the best information when the pandemic breaks wide open—and that is unfortunate, because that is the primary reason that I believe many of us visit here so often.
I sincerely hope that the mods will find a way to reach out to those disgusted with recent events and encourage their return, perhaps assuring them that heavyhanded censorship is not the intention here on the wikie.
I am no longer convinced that the fluwikie forum will be the first place we will get the best information when the pandemic breaks wide open
I am. There are still many great minds at work here, and even though many have said in the past that they were leaving, most of them have come back time and again.
mcjohnston92-
They do ultimately have the right to make the descisions that they do. And as Pixie stated, we can take it or leave it. I woulde prefer not to leave the Wiki. And I do believe there are many great minds here. The wiki will continue to be the best place around to get the best information and advice. We have an excellant gang here, and I want to continue to be apart of this gang.
We are what we are. The opinions of folks like AnnieB are vital, as are mcjohnston92 (even though they differ). Everyone is welcome, and self-restraint is requested.
The task of learning how to disagree with each other over important issues is an important one to master. We will need it when equally vexing questions arise.
FrenchieGirl – at 11:04 I thought the start a worm farm to compost your waste, and, start a vegetable garden - think about what you could grow in the winter were nice touches to the 6-weeks supply of food, water, medical supplies. Also said critial job positions were voluntary? and said, consider they might not be able to travel home; might have to stay at their duty station once pandemic starts… Thanks for posting those.
This is strange. I followed the link here and went to Monotreme’s site and was fully expecting strong or even provocative words. Well, I couldn’t find any reference to China conspiracy or intent to harm the rest of the world. I haven’t read everything. But first look suggests that it is much milder than here, may be even boring. If exactly the same content were posted here, it might just have been accepted without question. So why all this controversy in the first place? Cool heads prevail? Or Monotreme talked to his lawyers and found out that he being his own moderator would face the same constraints that the mods face here?
FrenchieGirl – at 11:04
I wanted to put them up on the Wiki while I was still on them, but I am at loss to decide in which chapter to put them. They are pdf files and 20 pages long, dated June 2006.
We can post PDF Files on the wiki?
AnnieB – at 16:21
FWIW, I have given up making comments on most things as I am sick of being shot down - well that’s how it feels anyway. So, I will just continue to take the global community approach to assisting others as best as I can.
AnnieB… I think (for the most part) that 2 things contibute to the ill feelings generated when a person gets replys by certain posters.
1. We (myself included) do not think out our thoughts entirely, and the words we pick to type, do not end up meaning what we wanted them to mean.
2. Frustrations are high for everyone here. Things do not appear to be addressed at (any) the local, State or Federal level and it shows in our posts.
My thoughts on #2… I know here in Florida, the State, and local governments are frantically working to put plans in place. But, only dribs and drabs are getting out to the public. I partially understand the reasons….
If everyone who is so very involved here, will try to get involved in their community, then maybe some of the frustrations will go away… (or not…) But, it might help.
So AnnieB… don’t stop posting, just think that every poster who writes really has good intentions, until you see different. You have a lot to contibute…
JMO…
So… Tom left too, because of whatever happened on the China thread? I understand Monotreme… and quite frankly think it is a great loss. (I wasn’t around to read the thread… so no I don’t know what the blaze went on. I do know he has been a great contributor.) And Tom… he’s gone too?
just think that every poster who writes really has good intentions, until you see different.
That’s my assumption.
Re pdf’s we can always link the source, we can’t host files directly.
Bronco Bill – at 16:57
I am no longer convinced that the fluwikie forum will be the first place we will get the best information when the pandemic breaks wide open
I am. There are still many great minds at work here, and even though many have said in the past that they were leaving, most of them have come back time and again.
—
I am too, but I am NOT convinced it will survive from a technical perspective.
It’s wobbly on a SLOW day.
I firmly believe the wiki won’t be accessable when it’s most needed.
BG - that has been one of my major concerns about the Wiki. Even today, with what I assume was minimally increased traffic due to the developments in HK, there have been times I’ve been unable to access the site at all, and many other times when it was slower to load than pages were when I was on dial-up (I’m on high speed DSL now).
I’ve always thought there were great minds at work here - I only hope that doesn’t change over much.
Bird Guano – at 19:32 & Clawdia – at 20:22 --- I think you may find today, at least in the US, the whole Internet is running a bit slower than usual, not just FluWiki as a single site. It’s election day here, and tons more people than usual have been logged on all day to find out about election results.
As far as I know, pogge’s keeping the servers running smoothly, and I’m working on getting a lot of older threads closed and splitting longer threads when I can keep up with them.
XIX is done. Closing for length and opening new thread here
Last relevant posts copied to new thread
i’ve been lurking for over a year, and only started posting recently. i’d hoped the censorship thing had gone away, but folks still don’t seem to get it.
it’s not about censorship of speech in the US. it’s about saving as many lives as possible. there are 300 million in the US, and 6.6 billion world-wide. this site may physically reside in the US, but it does so on the Internet, and people contribute to it from around the world.
if this site did not have the focus of preparing for a pandemic (not a US epidemic), then perhaps it might be ok if another nation/state blocked it because of the ideas postulated here. if this were a political site, or any other kind of site that people have in the US (except one to help all people prepare for a pandemic), then i doubt many Americans would care if another nation/state blocked it. but that is NOT the case.
it’s not about American’s (or anyone else’s) right to vent/voice/rant to their heart’s content. it’s not about Americans - it’s about humanity - all people.
maybe people didn’t understand what i said before… if text gets posted to this site, and another nation/state is monitoring the cleartext traffic entering/leaving it over the Internet, when someone inside such a country pulls the content from this site (ie, in a browser), that text then passes though the monitoring that occurs within that nation/state (not here in the US). and if the monitors are looking for specific words within that text, this site may be flagged to be blocked - for people within that country - NOT here in the US. this one teensy little piece isn’t about the US.
i value my speech here in the US. but making a point on this website solely to win an arguement is not worth a single life. speech is important - no one is saying that people in the US should have their speech censored. why does everyone have to wear their values on their sleeve? there is quite a bit more to the world than the US - and I do love my country - but posting text that is offensive to other countries may cause this website to be blocked. and the people that live in those countries would not have the opportunity to learn from this site that we have. and more people will die.
is it really worth a human life just to make a point in an argument?