Continued from here
pfwag – at 21:10
BB: what are the chances for anything to work against H5N1? Other than Sambucol and a Sanyo(?) air purifier, I know of no other products that have actually been tested against H5N1. Given the facts that the death rate is currently a bit on the high side and that there is no viable treatment or cure for H5N1, the published statement of two MDs saying that CS cures BF should be worth discussing, ESPECIALLY on a FLU Wikie forum.
Dennis in CO: I have no absolute data on the maximum size but anything below a few hundred nanometer doesn’t appear to get stuck in the skin. What you want, however, is CS down in the 10 nanometer or below size. The “why” is the number of particles and absorbability. Some CS mfrs talk a lot about surface area but I view that as secondary. If you have a lot of small particle you will have a large surface area. I would have to look up the accurate numbers but a bee-bee size piece of silver in a gallon of water is equivalent to something like 10ppm but you only have one silver particle. If you break up that silver into 1nm pieces you now have something on the order of 9E19 particles resulting in a teaspoon of the CS having about as many silver particles as the human body has cells (~5E16). That is what you want for fighting pathogens. Lots of small particles circulating in your body. Also, the small particles are better absorbed resulting in more of them getting in your circulatory system rather than passing through and doing nothing but making more expensive pee.
Dennis in Colorado – at 23:26
pfwag – at 21:10 Other than Sambucol and a Sanyo(?) air purifier, I know of no other products that have actually been tested against H5N1.
Has Sambucol been tested against H5N1? I’ve seen several studies of its efficacy in “normal” influenza, but not one specific to H5N1.
Sauerkraut has. It was some place like Wisconsin and was only on chickens with BF.
Dennis in CO: Sambucol was tested in vitro at a lab in the UK against H5N1. I have the link on my work computer if nobody else can provide it. While anecdotal, we have maybe 6 incidents where it appears to work very good at helping to stop and cure colds and the regular flu, although in most of those situations we used CS too. Depending on where in CO you are, there was a nasty flu strain going around a few months ago. My son, in Arvada, caught it and went from feeling bad to laid out flat with a 105 fever in a little over a day. My wife went over with the Sambucol and CS and poured both down him. She took both as well as a prophylactic. When she felt like she was coming down with it she added nebulized CS. Anyway, my son was completely better in two days and my wife never came down with it at all. As further “proof” we moved from Hawaii to CO 30 years ago because my wife had so many URTIs in Hawaii. She still catches everything that goes around but we have been using CS for about the last 6–7 years and she is sick no were near as bad or for as long as she was before taking CS. Now with the Sambucol added it seems like it is even less but impossible to quantify so still anecdotal.
Allquietonthewesternfront - link? Having once worked in a building where many of the assembly line workers ate kim chee I wouldn’t be surprised if it killed H5N1. The stuff practically drove all the non-kim chee eaters out of the building.
There was a discussion on Sambucol last year on FW with some arguing for caution in using it on H5N1 and some arguing that it had a number of anti-flu properties and the cytokine stimulation was not the strongest. The pro faction said that combining curcumin (slows down cytokines) with Sambucol would take care of any likely problem. An in vitro test does not involve cytokines, so cannot be regarded as conclusive. Most helpful would be tests in mice or other mammals. I am unsure about the advisability of using Sambucol.
INFOMASS: we have decided that for H5N1 we will use it as a prophylactic, similar to the 6 week “before” Tamiflu regimine, and then, should anyone get BF, cease and switch over to cytokine suppressing agents while simultaneously increasing other anti-virals. Unfortunately I do not know what the residual lag will be so maybe curcumin will take care of that. I hear you on the in vitro test but at least it showed that it has strong anti-viral properties against H5N1 and is a starting point for demonstrating its effectiveness. Isn’t that how it is supposed to be done when a drug is targeting a specific pathogen? That has always been one of my biggest problem with Tamiflu. With all the $Billions being purchased, can’t Roche afford to do a simple in vitro test so that we can at least be sure Tamiflu actually kills the stuff we are spending $Billions to kill? An in vitro test has got to be cheaper than testing on a few lab rats. And a whole lot quicker to do.
re: plasma nebulizers
In vitro and in vivo are VERY different things. If you spray the virus with a 70% alcohol solution, it will die. If you wash your hands that have been “infested” with the virus, chances are many are still alive.
That’s the big problem with the nature of business. Companies are able to make very convincing claims, without actually lying, but without actually delivering results.
It’s not a matter of saying it WON’t work, I never did say that (because nobody knows). I do think that it has a LOW PROBABILITY of working simply from logical reasoning. The purifier can only handle x amount of air at a time over any given period. The remainder of the air is free to “remix” and become re-infested via the host. I suggest that while the viral load may be reduced is it worth the extra costs that could be allocated more effectively (food storage, medicines, etc.)?
Regarding statins, I for one will NOT be taking them (unless of course my LDL rises to gravy levels). Way too many side effects that are not apparent without regular monitoring of blood work.
I am not relying on Tamiflu as a saviour. I will likely take it if I become ill, as Tamiflu HAS been shown effective IN VIVO for regular flu strains, and it is presumed that H5N1 will likely have similar antigenic properties to “regular” flu viruses should it mutate to a pandemic strain.
I will not waste my money on products that don’t make sense though. Incense, nebulizers, air purifiers… or food on the table. Choice is easy.
I never quite understood the Tamiflu skepticism. It seems to invalidate the H5N1 tests (as discussed in FW) by depressing the H5N1 viral count so low that it cannot be measured. People with H5N1 who take it early seem to get better, as in Turkey. But I think that double blind tests in mice would be preferable to this empiricism. There is also the issue of resistance, which only underlines the need for multiple approaches from hygiene to social distancing to treatment of secondary diseases.
RPh: purifier? I’m not sure of what you are talking about or your specific point. Please clarify or elaborate. BTW, taking Tamiflu after being infected is mostly a waste of money. See the links to the studies in my posting noted below. Tamiflu works more efficiently when taken at or soon after being infected but the problem for most of us is how do we know when we were infected? By the time the symptoms start showing up we have mostly missed the window. At least for the first person in your family/house. It is even worse when using Tamiflu for a prophylatic where it appears to be very effective (against regular influenza any way). How do you know 6 weeks before you will be infected?
INFOMASS: maybe it has something to do with all the money being spent and here we are some 1–2 years later and those tests still haven’t been done. A few rats can’t be that expensive. One would think that one would want some proof of effectiveness before buying a few $Billion of the stuff. Oh well, it is only tax dollars…. In any case, I posted all my thoughts on Tamiflu, good, bad, and conspiritorial with links to all the major studies (that I know of anyway) at http://www.arielco.us/page8.html Let me know what you think. It would appear that the only currently available medical solution that will have a positive affect on the outcome is to get a PPV23.
I’m going for the shotgun approach with the hope that one or two pellets kill the stuff. The only problem is what all the pellets should be which is back to one of RPh’s points.
A previous poster was commenting with regards to plasma air purifiers to essentially irradiate the virus. This works great in theory as “all” (sic) the viruses that pass through the plasma field should indeed be killed (incidentally UV, alcohol, bleach should accomplish the same results). The problem becomes ensuring all of the viruses in the room go through the plasma field, which is relatively contained. That’s what ain’t gonna happen.
Tamiflu has a modestly good track record against seasonal flu (about 60–70%) when taken within 72 hours of onset of symptoms (note: NOT onset of infection - like H5N1, influenza A also incubates while the patient is asymptomatic). Should H5N1 acquire other traits of the regular flu, I would expect a similar cure rate (60–70%), when taken within 72 hours of onset - that’s the key that has not been happening in the bulk of the cases. Billions have already been spent on Tamiflu to express its effectiveness against regular flu strains. There is no scientific model in place to test it agianst H5N1. Such testing would require deliberate infection of at least human-like species (e.g. monkeys, pigs) to demonstrate effectiveness in humans. Do you want them doing that right now?
Agreed that a pneumococcal vaccine is a good idea (if your immune system is competent, it is a once in a lifetime experience).
One big problem with a “shotgun approach” is potential side effects/adverse reactions. Given the limited number of products that have shown any promise, maybe only choose 1 or 2 “pellets”.
Last winter there was a lot of discussion here about Oil of Oregano so anyone interested could look that up. I googled and found tons of stuff on it. Below is a portion of a great article from a consumerhealth organization and they are not selling anything. Coincidentally, at my boys’ football game last night, a good friend told me she had pneumonia and she wasn’t getting well in the hospital so her mother treated her naturally. I said I had just gotten over a case and found oil of oregano to be more powerful than anything else I’d ever tried and she said that was the main weapon in her mom’s treatment also and she had dramatic results with it. Three days after I began taking it with such immediate results, I stopped to test if it really was that product and the pneumonia worsened rapidly for 24 hours until I began treatment again.
n the fight against SARS, there are two natural medicines to rely upon: Oregacyn and Germ-a-Clenz. Oregacyn is the front line of defense. It is a powerful germ killer, truly lifesaving. It may be taken preventatively: one capsule twice daily. If exposed or sickened, it should be taken aggressively, like 2 or more capsules three times daily. In severe cases it can be taken even more aggressively, like 2 to 4 capsules every hour of two (Note: be sure to take it with food, juice or with plenty of water). The Germ-a-Clenz is the ideal air sterilizer. Use it preventatively in all possible scenarios. Simply spray it high in the air in any room or region that may be contaminated. Spray in a tissue and breathe or, spray it directly into the mouth and/or nose. Use it for prevention in any area where people congregate. Keep both the Germ-a-Clenz and Oregacyn at ready access at all times. In the car, office, or other strategic places. Never go anywhere without it. The point is if an individual gets SARS if at least he or she takes Oregacyn, premature death will be prevented. The Germ-a-Clenz can also prevent it, that is by destroying the germ in the air or on surfaces. Oregacyn will neutralize the SARS virus. Germ-a-Clenz can neutralize its airborne components. Also, use Oregacyn oil, rubbing it into the chest, back, and feet, as well as taking it under the tongue. Use also the Maximum Strength oil of oregano. It is also effective as a topical rub.
A study by Siddiqui in Medical Science Research is revealing. Here, spice extracts, such as those used in Oregacyn and Germ-a-Clenz, killed all viruses tested on contact. The researchers were so amazed that they described the spice’s destructive actions as ‘remarkable’. The fact is the spice oils essentially disintegrated the viruses, even difficult-to-kill ones such as herpes. Thus, spice extracts offer the potential to cure a wide range of the plagues of modern humankind, including SARS and West Nile virus
Is sauerkraut a new weapon against bird flu?
By Karen Herzog
Milwaukee Journal Sentinel
MILWAUKEE — While President Bush scrambles to ward off an avian-flu pandemic, the world’s largest sauerkraut producer, tucked amid the glacial lakebeds of rural Wisconsin, is sitting atop a bumper crop of one possible preventative.
That’s right: sauerkraut.
An international buzz is surrounding the unassuming fermented cabbage. Scientists at Seoul National University in South Korea fed an extract of kimchi, a spicy Korean variant of sauerkraut, to 13 chickens infected with avian flu, and a week later, 11 of the birds started to recover, according to a report by the BBC Network.
RPh - there are strong indications that the PPV23 does not last a lifetime and in fact may not even last longer than a few years. See the info referenced in my BF report posted at http://www.arielco.us/page3.html Since it may be a critical component to surviving a BF infection we probably need better data since PBF may be with us for a good long time.
Sharp makes the air purifier that has been tested against H5N1. Here is an old E-Bay link with the various models and some info: http://tinyurl.com/otqsg Might be good for a sick room. I got one for my wife who is a substitute teacher. We haven’t asked the district about the “rules” of bringing your own air prufier with you to school during flu season.
BTW, another problem with UV lights in water is biofilm on the UV bulb. It seems that it likes UV. Some of the bigger UV water lamps have a built-in scrapper for removing the biofilm.
The whole idea of a shotgun is multiple pellets to hit some H5N1 infected bird winging your way. You may be betting your life on your shooting ability with only one or two.
A potentially big problem is drinking H5N1 infected water coming out of your tap. See http://tinyurl.com/g3htq for thoughts on how it can happen and http://tinyurl.com/ewovm for my thoughts on how to prevent it from happening.
Allquietonthewesternfront - thanks for the reminder. I’ll look into it. I’m not surprised that fermented cabbage (kim chee) kills H5N1. If “good” medicine tastes bad Kim Chee has got to be one of the very best medicines.
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