Series on Cytokinic Dysregulation
new thread.
TomDVM -
I was interested in your comments regarding the 2 “p” drugs, especially after the latest info on the 1918 Pandemic Cytokine responses. So, a quick google search, the drugs appear to be one. I was concerned about your comments regarding relative safety of the drugs, compared to the listed side effects. I think I understand the reasoning to take the drug if one has a H5N1 infection (to dampen immune system Cytokine response). I understand that IF H5N1 becomes easily H-H-H, and has a high CFR, that treatment options using this type of drug may make sense. Still, there do seem to be significant risks.
Comments?
prednisone: http://www.medicinenet.com/prednisone/article.htm
prednisolone: http://www.medicinenet.com/prednisolone/article.htm
Prednisone is inactive in the body and, in order to be effective, first must be converted to prednisolone by enzymes in the liver.
SIDE EFFECTS: Side effects of prednisone and other corticosteroids range from mild annoyances to serious, irreversible damage, and they occur more frequently with higher doses and more prolonged treatment
Annonx2 (annon, but with a specific annon handle - at least for now)
Annonx2. First of all. They are not the same drug…but in the same class of drugs. One is an immune suppressor among other things…the other is an anti-shock drug.
As far as side-effects go…have you ever read the side-effects of aspirin…really though, most of the listed side-effects are for long-term usage but these drugs have been used for more than 50 years successfully in a multitude of diseases…prednisone, primarily in auto-immune disorders, delayed allergic reactions etc.
Prednisolone is primarily used as a primary anti-shock drug given intravenously in intensive care for any blood loss injury, acute septicaemias allergies etc. The pill form works just as well with of course delayed onset of action…this is a tremendous and rare advantage…to have an effective intensive care drug in pill form.
Short term steroids are not harmful in reasonable dosages but too much of anything for too long a time is harmful to your health.
I suggest we drop this argument because there are going to be no drugs whatsoever in a pandemic unless you have stockpiled them beforehand…no antibiotics, no electrolytes, no acetominophen etc. etc. etc…
…when I visualize a pandemic…this is the one thing that makes me really angry…thanks for the question.
TomDVM -
thanks for your reponse, I appreciate it, my question was not intended to be argumentative, I aplogize if it came across as so. My confusion between the two drugs was based upon the sentence covering the apparent conversion from one to another.
I understand your frustration with the seeming (and actual) lack of real, sustained, serious preparation for potential Flu Pandemic (by the many levels of government, business and inviduals). I have decided that my first priority is to make adequate prepartions for my family, and am thus stockpiling medicines (including Tamiflu & Relenza, antibiotics, electrolytes, acetopminophen, etc.). My questions around the “p” drugs are based on my decision to take personal action to protect my family. I am asking my questions to specificly assist me in making informed decisions as to what to prepare with. (yeah, I know, bad grammer … sue me after the pandemic is over .. if we’re all around }
You can’t build a decent house without bricks, you can’t have decent med care without appropriate meds. Are the meds a silver bullet? Perhaps, perhaps not. My grandfather was a real family MD, made house calls, one man office, etc. He would have been the first to say that common sense (hand washing, good hygene, proper diet & exercise)is a solid foundation. To me, common sense includes planning for and obtaining meds *now* that most likely will be out of stock later.
Yes, there is the larger question about my extended family, neighbors, friends, aquaintences, etc. I just want to be able to look my family in the eye and tell them I’ve done the best I can with the knowledge available. No excuses.
TomDVM - thanks again for your many informative posts, I have listened to your recomendations and have taken action based on your advice. It is a d*mn shame that more medical professionals do not stand up and give straight answers.
best,
annonx2
annonx2. If my frustration boiled over a little bit, I am sorry. It wasn’t the question. Thank you for choosing to not be anonymous and please continue to help us by discussing things, questioning, and pointing out where we might have things wrong.
Prednisolone may have absolutely no affect on a pandemic H5N1…it apparently had little effect on SARS…
…this argument I can understand and accept but as to the dangerousness of the drug…it is no more dangerous that aspirin…
…but where my real frustration lies is no stockpile of drugs that do work for secondary affects of the virus and infections…
…while concentrating on known treatment and preventative failures…or if not failures, effective in approx. 5 % of the population…and without the production capability to back up there tenous usefulness…Oh well
…they don’t have a lot of time left to WAKE UP!!!
Thanks again.
Tom ~ Is there another name that Prednisolone is listed by in the drug world? I have been trying to obtain this one and can’t seem to locate a source.
Tom DVM ~ Oh, since I know you will check out this thread, I am giving you this little bit of info I just read in a book about survival. I know you are living next to a lake full of fish and that is you main source of prepping at this time…right? Well, get your gun ready to hunt because fish is such a low-calorie protein that you would have to consume 5–6 pounds every day to fullfill you caloric needs for the day. Not to say you can’t do that, I would eat my leather pocketbook if I had to, but throw in some rice and beans and after 5–6 lbs of fish rish and beans will look like filet mignon!
Wikipedia is a little “stubby” on prednisolone
I see elsewhere I was putting the ac-cent* on the wrong sy-la*-ble : Prednisolone (pred-NISS-oh-lone)
Crfullmoon Thanks for the link.
seacoast. This drug has been off patent since the early 1960′s if it was ever on patent…so the only formulations I have ever seen is as ‘prednisolone’.
Thanks for the advice and for pointing out a flaw in my strategy. I expect to be seriously prepping in the next few weeks.
I prove once again…that when you have to go down that dark alley…don’t follow a doctor. /:0)
Back to the original assignment. You may use two #2 sharpened pencil and one eraser.
I see that many of my colleagues are beginning to dull each other’s blades before we even get to the battleground of H5N1.
Please study the earlier threads for a more complete discussion on what we do and what we don’t know about Cytokinic Dysregulation.
Please add this topic to your previously assigned papers for perusal.
I do not expect a 500 word brief on my desk by the morning.
I would like to see a 1 word post someday soon to cytokinic dysregulation from H5N1 - SOLUTION.
If you have the answer before reading the question, please post to the rumours thread.
Continue the content absorbtion if you’d like to participate in finding the solution.
Epigenetics - DNA is only part of the puzzle
We also know that DNA exists outside of the nucleus of the human cell (cytoplasmic typically).
Now we must continue to studying what the rules are and who are the mediators of those rules.
Gather and Solve
Fascinating. I have never ran into Epigenetics therory before. So, looking at the current epidemic of obesity in children could be related to the fact that so many of their grandparents had short rations during WW 2 ? “ They have shown that a famine at critical times in the lives of the grandparents can affect the life expectancy of the grandchildren. This is the first evidence that an environmental effect can be inherited in humans.” Am I looking at that article right ?
Am I looking at that article right?
Not sure there’s a “right” and a “wrong”, but it’s not as earth-shaking as it might first appear. Depends on how far you want to go with it.
Just about everyone has heard DNA described as the “blueprint for life”. It’s too bad, because it’s a lousy metaphor. If it weren’t for the widespread popularity of this lousy metaphor, the idea that “there is more to inheritance than just the genes” wouldn’t seem like such an “extraordinary discovery”. I mean, it’s extraordinary in the sense that it’s wondrous, awe-inspiring, and all that, but as a concept in the science of biology, the fact that “genes and the environment are not mutually exclusive but are inextricably intertwined” should be regarded as fundamental. Rudimentary even.
Rather than a blueprint, what DNA is more like is a list of ingredients. Assembly instructions not included. Exactly where those instructions reside is not an easy question to answer, but in one sense, it is with the individual cell. Which portions get translated into proteins, and when, and what those proteins are used for, is determined (as much as anything) by the chemical state of the cell. But the chemical state of a cell is in turn influenced by the state of the system of which it is a part, and individual cells have individual histories as well — and at every point, the chemical states of every cell in each cell’s lineage, and the states of the systems of which they were part, are reflected in the current state of the current cell. In that sense, everything that happens to an organism has the potential to influence cellular chemistry, and hence, gene expression, and hence, to be passed on to “daughter” cells, whether those are somatic or germinal.
It’s like a dance. A really complicated dance. (Cytokine regulation is like a dance within a dance, and one of many). We can attempt to isolate some feature of that complexity, and label that a “switch”; and say “this is the switch which is designed to turn this feature on or off” — but we can’t do that without imposing upon the system some of our own values. The risk of over-interpretation is ever present.
For additional background in epigenetics, there are two books which discuss the long history we carry in our DNA. One is written by Dr. Brian Sykes, a noted geneologist and is called The Seven Daughters of Eve It is available at Amazon http://tinyurl.com/yjs6xq] The other book by Hammer and Copeland is called Living With our Genes: Why They Matter More Than You Think An earlier subtitle for the book was: The Science of Personality, Behavior and Genetic Destiny. also available through Amazon http://tinyurl.com/ybedsd Both are very readable to the nonscientist. I believe that it is the Living With our Genes book that uses the phrase “Psychogenetics.”
I realize that this is a bit OT from a discussion of Cytokine Dysregulation but since it is an area I’ve been interested in for more than a decade, I had to add these two mentions should there be any others with a similar interest in the subject.