Continued from here
DemFromCT – at 19:27
just think that every poster who writes really has good intentions, until you see different.
That’s my assumption.
Re pdf’s we can always link the source, we can’t host files directly.
Bird Guano – at 19:32
Bronco Bill – at 16:57
I am no longer convinced that the fluwikie forum will be the first place we will get the best information when the pandemic breaks wide open
I am. There are still many great minds at work here, and even though many have said in the past that they were leaving, most of them have come back time and again.
—
I am too, but I am NOT convinced it will survive from a technical perspective.
It’s wobbly on a SLOW day.
I firmly believe the wiki won’t be accessable when it’s most needed.
Clawdia – at 20:22
BG - that has been one of my major concerns about the Wiki. Even today, with what I assume was minimally increased traffic due to the developments in HK, there have been times I’ve been unable to access the site at all, and many other times when it was slower to load than pages were when I was on dial-up (I’m on high speed DSL now).
I’ve always thought there were great minds at work here - I only hope that doesn’t change over much.
Bronco Bill – at 20:29
Bird Guano – at 19:32 & Clawdia – at 20:22 --- I think you may find today, at least in the US, the whole Internet is running a bit slower than usual, not just FluWiki as a single site. It’s election day here, and tons more people than usual have been logged on all day to find out about election results.
As far as I know, pogge’s keeping the servers running smoothly, and I’m working on getting a lot of older threads closed and splitting longer threads when I can keep up with them.
has someone figured out how to autobump your threads ?
is there a service, where we can send fluwiki-posts by email and who then posts them here ? (so Pogge and others can’t spy on the log-data)
c3jmp – at 22:11 made an excellent statement after you closed the previous part of the thread—could you also copy his statement here on this new part of the thread? Thanks!
~~mous – at 22:26 --- No.
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 22:31 --- Done.
c3jmp – at 22:11
i’ve been lurking for over a year, and only started posting recently. i’d hoped the censorship thing had gone away, but folks still don’t seem to get it.
it’s not about censorship of speech in the US. it’s about saving as many lives as possible. there are 300 million in the US, and 6.6 billion world-wide. this site may physically reside in the US, but it does so on the Internet, and people contribute to it from around the world.
if this site did not have the focus of preparing for a pandemic (not a US epidemic), then perhaps it might be ok if another nation/state blocked it because of the ideas postulated here. if this were a political site, or any other kind of site that people have in the US (except one to help all people prepare for a pandemic), then i doubt many Americans would care if another nation/state blocked it. but that is NOT the case.
it’s not about American’s (or anyone else’s) right to vent/voice/rant to their heart’s content. it’s not about Americans -it’s about humanity - all people.
maybe people didn’t understand what i said before… if text gets posted to this site, and another nation/state is monitoring the cleartext traffic entering/leaving it over the Internet, when someone inside such a country pulls the content from this site (ie, in a browser), that text then passes though the monitoring that occurs within that nation/state (not here in the US). and if the monitors are looking for specific words within that text, this site may be flagged to be blocked - for people within that country - NOT here in the US. this one teensy little piece isn’t about the US.
i value my speech here in the US. but making a point on this website solely to win an arguement is not worth a single life. speech is important - no one is saying that people in the US should have their speech censored. why does everyone have to wear their values on their sleeve? there is quite a bit more to the world than the US - and I do love my country - but posting text that is offensive to other countries may cause this website to be blocked. and the people that live in those countries would not have the opportunity to learn from this site that we have. and more people will die.
is it really worth a human life just to make a point in an argument?
Thanks BB!!
this came up earlier….I don’t know if any thing was done or if it’s a problem, but I thought I’d tell you……from the Flu Preps thread…..
EnoughAlready – at 23:06 Okay… during writing that… I got some editing page… where I could have edited everything on this entire thread. I don’t think I was suppose to get that. Don’t know what I did… it just popped up. Then, when I hit the back button to finish the last paragraph (like I was trying to do when the editing stuff happened) when I hit post… some network error page came………..
Thanks. I’ve had one other report of someone getting to the edit page inadvertantly and I’ve tried to duplicate it but so far, no joy. It’s like an intermittent problem with your car — it never happens when the mechanic’s around.
Boy, I’ve experienced THAT recently…..pain in the rear trying to play tag with a problem like that! G’luck!
Murphy’s Law of Computer glitches.
I’m wondering if there is a Murphy’s Law of Pandemics
;-p
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 23:14 and pogge – at 23:22 --- I’ve seen the same thing when I’ve been on either a thread that I was about to post to, and on the Last 50 Changes page. pogge, if I can figure out what key combo I used, I’ll let you know.
anonymous – at 22:26
the problem with setting up an automated mechanism to post via email is that it would be vulnerable to abuse via spam. and the admins here would need to spend additional time mitigating that, as well as keeping an eye out for vulns for whatever mechanism they put in place.
In the Wiki Index, would it be ok to link (Deceased Persons, Mortuary) to the threads discussing Mass Fatality Plans?
I’m supposed to be offline doing something else out the door right now…sorry to ask and run but I could probably figure it out later, if its ok to do it - add thread links to bottom of page, or what? (tptb, if they look at the wiki, need to see some of what people say they will do themselves, instead, given that they don’t hear workable preparations happening in their areas.
if the admins had the time (and i seriously doubt they do), such a mechnism might do a gpg signature check on the email, and only post email that passes - that would eliminate most of the spam issues. that would involve a means to check keys, though - and all of that is time intensive to setup and test.
crfullmoon – at 08:02
The wiki index can link to anything you think is appropriate… it’s a wiki, therefore do it yourself (DIY) or email me whatcha wanna do. But it might also be appropriate to do the same in the Forum index. The wiki index is meant to be more permanent.
c3jmp – at 08:04
you’re right. no time. ;-)
c3jmp – at 22:11
thank you for your insight!
I also have concern about the viability of the wiki in any event that causes high traffic. It seems the topic of our questionable viability is a continuing thread on almost every other panflu website.
Is there anything we can do? I pity those on dial-up…
It’s not much different on high speed, than dial up.
It wasn’t just slow yesterday because of the election - I have the same issues every day of the week - some days, when I really want to go over what’s been posted, I have to do it in the middle of the night, 2 a.m. eastern, or later (earlier?). Yesterday it seemed a little slower than usual, which I attributed to the news out of HK. No where else I went on the internet seemed any different than any other day.
Other flu websites are concerned because we know how much valuable information is available on the Wiki, and people worry that they will not be able to access it when they feel they need it most.
Clawdia – at 15:32 --- Here’s a question for you: Have you tried checking the speed on the Wiki side, and comparing it to the Forum side? They run on two completely seperate servers.
The Wiki side: http://www.fluwikie.com
The Forum side: http://wwwfluwikie2.com
Bronco Bill – at 15:40
When TSHTF, can the mods post a summary situation analysis on the Wiki side, along with the Swan with the feet up or some other pre-arranged ‘signal’? Perhaps post even without TSHTF, but any time where the Forum side goes down?
I think they do that to some degree, ANON-YYZ, but you are 100% correct. Doing that even better when/if TSHTF will be crucial!
BB - no, hadn’t tried that. I will when I get a chance later. I assume you’re saying that the Wiki side is faster than the Forum side?
Too bad it’s the Forum I want to access most often, anyway!
Thanks.
Is Anon_22 branching out to start a UK wiki? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the Horizon BBC 2 UK postings.
anonymous – at 17:09
Is Anon_22 branching out to start a UK wiki? Perhaps I’m misunderstanding the Horizon BBC 2 UK postings.
I thought that odd as well.
Especially after the lengthy “we have to temper our speech at FluWikie to make sure the world hears us” ranting of the last week.
I find it quite ironic actually.
Anon_22 can address that. AS to the wiki vs the forum:
separate servers, separate plans.
We are still nailing down the financials and then plan to migrate the forum to a different platform. The wiki, as well may move. Takes time.
Now that there are less other distractions, we (I) can work on it.
But yes, a notice when the forum is down goes up at the wiki each time.
Thank You Bronco Bill, Pogge & anyone else in charge of keeping this forum running smoothly. Tonight, it is running very quick.
spam alert on the indonesia cluster thread!
BG,
The UK wiki idea had been on the books for quite some time and nothing to do with anything else here. The idea was that we need a lot more visibility in terms of UK policy debates, and UK threads get drowned out on this forum. Suffice it to say that I registered the domain more than 2 months ago, and as of now I still haven’t made up my mind. I don’t like the idea that people have to go to yet another site for info, but OTOH, the UK desperately needs some impetus to push things along. So what might happen is a very simple wikie with links to FW proper, but more extensive UK info, and, the most important feature, a UK forum.
The backbone of the site has already been set up a few weeks ago. I haven’t had time to work on it, and its password protected ie it hasn’t gone public yet.
If you check out my presentation at the National Academies, I did float this idea of ‘a pandemic of Wiki’s’, with special or local wiki’s to connect special people together.
special interest people
they might also be special people too, :-)
I volunteered to watch the news from “Mainland East Asia and Japan” but didn’t name it like the others. Would a mod. please add “Lookout post “ to the front of the title so it matches the other lookout threads and make it easier to find? Thanks!
done.
Hey, side scroll in Hong Kong thread! Thanks!
done.
Thanks, Dem!
I have a question-is it hard on the Wiki to leave my computer connected to Fluwiki when my husband needs the computer for a while and then maybe I have lunch and it’s still connected? (Is just being connected different than opening different threads, in other words?) Although sometimes my (something) disconnects itself and I get “You are not connected to the internet” when I click on a thread, and then I don’t feel so guilty.
Is just being connected different than opening different threads, in other words?
You mean keeping a browser window open with a forum page in it for a long period of time? Not a problem. You’re not requesting anything from the server so you’re not dragging it down. Remember to refresh the page when you come back, though. It may have changed. We’re a chatty bunch. ;-)
Mods- Is it just me, or is the forum very slow tonight? (I bet you get tired of people asking you that?)
It’s slow off and on. Traffic’s fairly high for this time of the evening and a look at the Last 50 Changes shows 5 posts in three minutes. When you get several people posting all at once like that, it will slow it down.
But that one went through quickly. It comes and goes.
Pogge- I just started to post ans say it seems better now. (man I wish my spelling was!!)
Please close the Rumors of Biredflu in NC Thread.
http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.RumorOfBirdFluInNC
DennisC has opened a new one with a better title that may ease some tension in the old thread.
Done.
Pogge, thanks.
Just my efforts to help “smooth some feathers” that I might have ruffled by mistake. But I do think we need to track down all flu rumors at this point.
Do you ever sleep?
Do you ever sleep?
pogge? No.
Yes. Saturday and Sunday mornings.
Can you please delete my presence in the “profiles” section?
Done.
Yes. Saturday and Sunday mornings.
But only between 3am and 5am. There’s work to be done! ;-)
Hey, side scroll in Hong Kong thread-again! Thanks!
we’re on it…
oh and it was double-posted
Sleep is for wimps, and non-computer people.
;-)
bump
Very late to the party. Let me still give you my two cents (Euro) The line of free speech is a fine one. Its not a chinese wall visinle from space even. You all know that, in theory. In practical terms it seems to be hard to implement. Since - as I understand the ultimate purpose of fluwicki - fluwiki wants to make as much information about flu (pandemic flu)as possible to as many people as possible for as long as possible, they have to sail safe, and err on the side of caution. Even if that means, not catering to those that simply want to express their hat, their suspicions or their unfounded allegations. The www is big enough so they can always find a place to do that. It is not fluwicki´s responsibility to cater to those, its their responsibility to stay credible even if that means that the extremes of the spectrum are left out.
I am not a friend of China, I do not trust them to be forthcoming with information in a timely manner. But - I have spent enough time in different Asian countries to understand the cultural gap, which is huge.
The bottom line to all this is: The fine line was crossed when China was accused of DELIBERATELY planning/intending to do harm. Thats about the same as someone saying they have already started the third world war with viruses.
That has nothing to do with truth or truth seeking or free speech.That is openly and blatantly accusing a country of utmost agression and mischief and intending to turn the world upside down and kill billions in the process. Despite the fact, that that would be a very bad idea and only a few mentally sick people might ever even intend to plan something like that: With ZERO proof and ZERO indication, such an outragous claim should not be made and if - then on a personal website with only personal consequences.
Fluwicki did a good job so far in trying to locate that fine line.
The price to be paid by fluwicki is: they will be accused of censorship. So be it. This accusation of those who were not allowed to constantly misuse the board for their personal propaganda and hat propaganda (recently niman came up with this censorship allegation at CE) is nothing in comparison to the ultimate goal: to be a credible and active source of information regarding flu.
Someone that posts here occasionally – at 00:48 The price to be paid by fluwicki is: they will be accused of censorship. So be it.
The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose what is almost as great a benefit: the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty, 1859
LOL, ignore what’s actually written and quote a dead guy. Freedom of speech.
why not just argue against that claim then ? And you can still make such statements, but should mark it as hypothetical or assumption. And “harm” doesn’t necessarily mean those things which you say. You exaggerate a bit. It all started with those retracted Chinese Swine-sequences which are forgotten now…
Thank you all. Someone that posts here occasionally – at 00:48 certainly captures our dilemma. Such choices are never easy, but what’s heartening is the number of posters who seem to appreciate that.
anonymous – at 08:13
I doubt John Stuart Mill would feel that clicking over to Recombinomics or Ask Monotreme would constitute silencing of opinion. “You probably shouldn’t say that here” doesn’t mean “you can’t say it”. But he’s dead, so I can’t IM him and get him to verify that. Nonetheless, I think he would have liked and appreciated the internet.
Passionate people tend to have more focussed thoughts. The concentrated thoughts of uncommon men are to be valued in any forum. Fluwiki “sheds” such individuals to the detriment of the stated purposes of this site. Ideally, Fluwiki should be “one-stop shopping”. Those dead white guys who founded the United States would have been banned on this site.
And each submission (however small) to each international threat to freedom brings us closer to a new Dark Age.
Some people just have to pick the scab off.
Those who speak ‘freely’ may not allow dissent. To them, they monopolize the truth.
anonymous – at 11:53
The righteousness of opinion held by passionate people doesn’t make it the correct, workable, or only one available. Working by yourself is so much easier than reaching consensus and working with others, but both approaches are needed. That philosophy is hardly out of tune with the dead guys, nor are you their exclusive spokesperson. For all I know, they’d tell you to stop worrying about things you have no control over and concentrate on things you do.
Another bunch of dead guys who (I suspect) would heartily disapprove of your attitude are those who died in the 1918 pandemic. I suspect they’d want more cooperation, less ideology.
Your description of ‘shedding’ isn’t correct, in any case. It’s more like ‘graduating’, with multiple schools founded as a consequence. That’s to be appreciated and encouraged. From the beginning, Flu Wiki has never tried to be “the exclusive” anything. What small things we accomplish, we do so by community input, but the “community” is bigger than Flu Wiki.
anonymous – at 12:23
Those who speak ‘freely’ may not allow dissent. To them, they monopolize the truth.
That’s an interesting two-edged comment. To whom did you refer? Suggesting, for example, that “how you say things” is stifling dissent is pretty lame. If that’s what you wish, find a non-moderated forum (if they exist), or one where the ‘dissent’ is encouraged (and a different ‘dissent’ will be argued over). That’s not a winning argument, no matter how often it’s put forth. Nor is it the focus here. Flu prep is.
Please don’t lose sight of that.
DemFromCT – at 12:38
Another bunch of dead guys who (I suspect) would heartily disapprove of your attitude are those who died in the 1918 pandemic. I suspect they’d want more cooperation, less ideology.
This is quite the ironic statement given the political climate of the time (1918), and the censorship present at that time because of the war.
Which combined, un-necessarily led to a “bunch of dead guys”.
So censorship now for the perceived “common good” is a good thing then ?
Seems to be a repeat of history to me.
If you’re referring to Flu Wiki, get over it. You might be right when it comes to governments. Don’t ever get over that.
DemFromCT – at 12:45
Those who speak ‘freely’ are those who left, voluntarily or not. They may not allow dissent as much as Fluwiki has.
anonymous – at 12:23
anonymous – at 13:21
Thank you for the clarification. I know of sites that don’t allow comments at all. While it saves money on aspirin for headaches, we are all diminished when that happens, IMHO. ;-)
Funny how the brain works.
Ideally, Fluwiki should be “one-stop shopping”.
What are we supposed to do, actually prevent other people from starting websites devoted to the subject? If we could do that and did, then the accusations of censorship might have some merit. But we don’t have that power and don’t want it.
But I would argue that having only one site on the subject isn’t ideal at all. Should there be only one newspaper? Only one cable news outlet? No publisher or broadcaster is going to be completely objective, even the ones who are trying to achieve that. No one owns the truth. Far better to have a diversity of outlets. We’ve always said the wiki is a good place to start your investigations but not necessarily the place to finish them.
The real meaning and value of free speech is that a diversity of opinions are available so that people can examine different points of view and decide for themselves what they think is true. And fortunately the barriers to entry on the internet are still quite low. Anyone with even a small amount of determination can start a website to get his message out. Monotreme just proved that. And you’ll notice that we haven’t tried to influence what he says on his site nor tried to pretend that his site isn’t there. We’ve made editorial decisions about how we operate here but Monotreme’s editorial decisions are his to make.
Monotreme himself has argued that in this case, redundancy is healthy. I would argue that the diversity is healthy too.
Reports of friction have been greatly exaggerated. Monotreme and I remain on good terms.
Monotreme has posted here today, on the Rumors thread - that’s constructive, and I appreciate it. Having a site the better to document one’s own perspective and participating here need not be mutually exclusive activities. Indeed, they can be complementary.
pogge, will we se any fluwiki logo soon?
That’s a decision that I don’t think will be finalized until Melanie’s feeling better and becomes more involved again in the day to day operations. That’s very much a publishing/editorial decision, not just a technical one. That’s why the Irish Geese are still up in the corner. ;-)
Urdar-Norway – at 15:17
We’ll prolly stick with the generic one for now. You fashioned some neat ones, but there was no consensus.
The thread is getting long, so we will close and reopen.