From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Keeping Leftovers Fresh with No Refrigeration

11 November 2006

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 19:36

Ok, I know the best thing is to NOT have left overs….but let’s say you have the power go out and you have food in the fridge — mayo, ziplock lunchmeat, jelly, etc.

If you put an oxygen absorber in the jelly and mayo jars, maybe put any cooked meat like the deli meat in a jar, etc. could you leave it out on the counter if you had no way to keep it cold?

I opened 2 jars of different flavored jelly for a dip I was making for tonight & didn’t use all of the jelly out of either jar. Spoon was in the jar once to dip out all I needed, then the lid was put back on. Later I put an oxy absorb in each jar and later noticed that the lids were sealed (the finger in the middle of the lid test revealed that there was no bounce in the lid). So I’ve had the jars sitting out for 2 days now & will leave them out a week or so to see if anything ‘bad’ happens.

Has anyone else done this before??

Dragonlady – at 19:51

Take this with a grain of salt.

My parents and grandparents never put the open bottles of jam or jelly in the fridge. I do because I like it cold.

If the jar got pushed to the back of the cupboard and had mold growing on preserves, my grandmother (or mom) would just scrape off the mold covered jam and serve the rest. I couldn’t taste any difference, but that was how we were raised.

janetn – at 20:04

Meat no way. It would still have bacteria growth in the moist meat. Some bacteria dont need O2. Mayo is egg based cant do that one on the counter either. Jelly has so much sugar in it you might get away with it Remember the HC system is going to be badly broken, so taking a risk with food posioning during a pandemic with little or no HC resources isnt a good idea.

If you have to dehydrate or can food. Dont leave it on the counter o2 absorbers or not

c3jmp – at 20:26

depending on where you live, and what time of year it is….. if it gets cold in the winter months, i’d put leftovers in a cooler outside - set a few reusable ice blocks out at night to freeze, and toss them in the cooler during the day. keep the cooler out of the sun, and secure it from animals. depends on how cold it gets where folks are. if it gets cold and stays cold, you can save electricity and just put the freezer outside. might want to lay a stand-up freezer on its back so the door stays closed.. maybe on blocks to keep from damaging the coils, if they’re external.

folks that really have to have mayo might want to find where fast food joints get their single-use packets - mayo doesn’t need to be cold until it’s opened.

MAinVAat 20:29

You can buy single packs mayo at Sam’s Club.

c3jmp – at 20:40

one note - if you lay a stand-up freezer on its back - make sure its off, and unplugged.. and when the time comes to use it in the vertical position again, set it upright for a few hours before plugging it in and turning it on.

Prepping Gal – at 22:11

I got food poisoning when my sister put Xmas turkey & stuffing in cooler outside (was very cold). It isn’t worth the risk. I’m not sure using something built to keep cold in is going to effectively keep the warm out when placed outside. Keeping constant temperature is again a problem. This is risky behaviour IMHO.

c3jmp – at 22:22

i know folks that have gotten by in extended power outages with no issues that way - certainly, ymmv. the way to know for sure would be to put a freezer thermometer in the cooler, and check it periodically over the course of several days. the purpose of the cooler in a cold environment isn’t so much to keep the food insulated, as to keep it safe from animals - you can always drill holes in it, though if there are bears where you live, that would be a bad idea..

c3jmp – at 23:06

stupid q tho - was the turkey cold when it went in the cooler - absent ice blocks, or an open lid in a cold environment, i’d expect a warm turkey to stay warm for a good long time in a sealed and insulated space..

Lisa the GP – at 23:12

Clay pot filled with sand, bury an impermeable pot with food in it in the sand, fill the sandy space between pots with water, place in a shaded area with good air circulation. Result: 20F drop in temperature inside the food-chamber. This is a commonly used trick in N. African deserts to refrigerate meat; it is essentially an evaporative-cooler based refrigerator.

Works best in low humidity, for obvious reasons.

2beans – at 23:31

Mayo roday is shelf-stable. Be careful not to contaminate it with fingers or soiled implements and it doesn’t need refrigeration. I,too, remember jelly in the cabinet with mold on top. Scrape it off and never had adverse effects.

12 November 2006

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 00:01

Is there anything in mustard or ketchup that make it have to be refrigerated? I’m not in a position where I can check my bottles for ingredients right now……

enza – at 00:42

Bacterial growth is inhibited/repressed by several things including low ph (eg vinegar) and an adjustment in the osmotic pressure on the cell(ie salt or sugar concentration). Short answer is: jams, jellys, ketchup, mustard, pickles, hot sauce, jerky are some things that will keep outside the fridge. We should start a list. Most folks today don’t know what can live outside the fridge…

Aunt Bee – at 01:27

When I was in college, I was shocked when I visited a friend’s home and saw that their mayo was kept in the kitchen cabinet along with the mustard, ketchup and jelly. They saw nothing wrong with it and claimed to have never gotten sick eating it. I’ve got to tell you I had my burger undressed…no way I would touch it but it didn’t seem to bother the other guests at all.

I’ve bought several of the small squeeze bottles of mayo and Miracle Whip for $1 each. If you were making tuna salad or something similar, it would use up a good bit of the bottle anyway.

Oremus – at 02:08

Practice portion control so that there are no leftovers.

Repomadman – at 08:33

I think alot of it depends on what “bugs” your stomach is used to. I too can remember my grandfather leaving alot of items in a cabinet that I would put in the fridge. I’ve also spent alot of time in Asia in places where the majority of folks don’t even have a fridge. I saw all kinds of things simply put back in the cabinet after it was opened or leftovers from one meal simply covered and left out to finish the next day - never heard of anyone getting sick from it. Of course with my sensitive “american” stomach I stayed far away from those items. Falls in with the rule “Don’t drink the water”, it doesn’t bother those used to it, but would extract a price from you.

Mari – at 11:34

This raises an interesting question - is there a way to desensitize our “sensitive stomaches” so that we would be less susceptible to food poisoning?

enza – at 11:38

Mayo must be in the fridge, because of the eggs.

Mari – at 12:58

enza – at 11:38 - There’s another fluwiki thread that discusses mayo and whether it can be stored unrefrigerated. See http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.VelveetaCheese?. Apparently while the eggs are a good source of food for bacteria, the vinegar provides an acid environment that retards bacterial growth. The real culprit in mayo-based food poisoning (according to the linked discussion and other web sources) is either putting a contaminated utensil in the mayo jar, or mixing the mayo with other foods that aren’t acidic. While I don’t plan on taking the chance myself, it looks like you could get away with storing opened mayo on the counter as long as you always use a clean utensil to scoop out the mayo (the squeeze bottle looks like a better option).

Mari – at 13:03

Sorry about the screwed up link. It should be link to Velveeta Cheese thread.

LMWatBullRunat 13:13

If you want field expedient cooling, do a google on the “Crosley Icy Ball”. this is an ammonia absorption cooling device that works very well and can be made easily today by any reasonably handy person. My wintertime fabrication plans are to build 4 of them and a large cooling chest designed to accomodate one at a time. If you really want to go whole hog, keep an eye out for Servel refrigerators…..

Green Mom – at 13:16

Enza- I allways thought that too, though I have read several reports that state there are so many perservatives in COMMERCIAL mayo that you CAN leave it out… and of course now I can’t remember where I read that-I think it was a womens mag at the docs office-allways a realible source of info :-)

Prepping Gal- Ive had food poisoning so don’t want to dispute anyone, however, Ive put holiday leftovers in coolers outside tons of times and never had a case of F.P. from that. I do wonder about the warm turkey staying warm. My guess would be that the inside of the cooler was too warm from the turkey. Many coolers have plug to drain water on the bottom of them-I pull that little plug to let cold air in, or prop the lid open for a little while for the contents to cool down-you would need to shut the lid overnight though to prevent animals from getting in.

Jam,jelly, mustard, margerine can be left out(Ive done this on camping trips) I’m reasonably sure ketchup and barbecue sauce can be-I think Ive done that too. Surprisingly, butter can be left out-up to about two weeks-I leave it out in a covered dish, it gets eaten long before it spoils. My sister lived in the Dominican Republic for a long time where electricty was erratic and left all sorts of things out all the time including-she said, eggs still in their shell-I don’t know for how long, but at least a couple of days. Once the shell is broken-different story. However, there people shopped for food everyday and would just buy what they could use that day. Also people ate in resteraunts/cafe/community kitchens/missons a LOT, or gather in big familys. Instead of everyone cooking thier own individual meals, one or two people would cook for a lot of folks. A great economical/ecological idea, but unfortunantly, not so good for a flu outbreak.

Ive been through extended power outages, and long camping trips and have just eaten lots of questionable food under unusual circumstances but the only times I have had food poisoning was eating in resterants. I had a severe case last spring from eating at a popular chain resterant, and even fast food make me queasy anymore.

I have two teens and two dogs that think they are people. Could someone explain this concept of “leftove food” to me? :-)

Milo – at 13:32

Mari – at 11:34 This raises an interesting question - is there a way to desensitize our “sensitive stomaches” so that we would be less susceptible to food poisoning?

I remember hearing some years ago that eating very hot spicy foods helps, that the capiscum in hot peppers kills the bugs or has some such effect. Not sure if this is a myth or not. Or if it works with some bugs but not others. Has anyone else heard of this?

Milo – at 13:38

Green Mom – at 13:16 eggs still in their shell-I don’t know for how long, but at least a couple of days.

I remember elderly relatives in Ireland turning over their unrefrigerated eggs once a day to prevent the yolk from settling against the shell.

I don’t remember how long they kept them before eating them, and don’t know if turning the eggs over really helped at all.

mojo – at 13:46

I bought a solar freezer which I am real happy with. My solar guy said I probably would have been better off buying a real energy effecient regular freezer which would have required less panels. I am thinking one of those small fridges, a battery, a controller and a panel would not be too expensive and might be well worth having for those looking to keep food between meals. My plan is to prepare several meals at once to conserve fuel and freeze the extra or to make ice and keep the food cool in the cooler between meals.

diana – at 14:25

In the winter you could put a pail of water out and then use the ice in a cooler for your leftovers if electricity was out.

DoubleDat 14:42

If power goes out… there is a fair amount of time that food will stay good in the fridge before you need to get worried - the fridge is a good insulated package and the cold air will remain a long time if you do not open and close the door a great deal.

Assuming you have a much longer window of time than that… then of course you will need to get the items attended to. In our household, it it could not be stored without frigeration then it would be the first thing we would eat and/or feed to the dogs. As to the freezer, if we were facing a major meltdown… I would fire up our portable gas stove and/or the wood stove and get the pressure canner going and can all the meats and frozen veggies possible before running out of jars/lids etc. We would also cook and eat items immediately as well. What was not canned and/or eaten would then be fed to the dogs.

By doing this, we would minimize our losses and if the power outage proved to be very long in duration - we would have successfully transitioned over to our other supplies which do not require freezing/refrigeration. I only keep 30 days at most of meat in my freezer - in part because of this potential risk.

In addition, as mentioned above, if you are in a power outage situation you need to only cook what will be eaten at a meal if items are perishable.

LMWatBullRunat 15:14

The nice thing about the ammonia absorption refrigeration cycle is that you get cold from heat. Servel refrigerators run on either natural gas, propane or kerosene and work very nicely. If you are concerned about loss of refrigeration a Servel can provide the needed refrigeration with no electricity required. You could run one with a wood stove and a hot water loop if need be…… Moreover, many of these units have been in continuous service since the 1930s; they have no moving parts. I don’t have one yet but will soon.

Oremus – at 16:01

some refrigerator links:

EFFICIENT REFRIGERATORS

7 Liter Thermo-Electric Fridge note: This is on sale.

Global Solar Refrigerator

mojo – at 20:00

I have a sundanzer 8 cu freezer. I don’t know hoe to do links but it is good sized.

mojo – at 20:02

That should have been how not hoe. This brand is supposed to be one of the best in solar fridges and freezers on the market

janetn – at 21:25

Good rule of thumb When in doubt throw it out. food posioning is not worth the risk

LauraBat 22:19

When we lost power this summer for a few days, I already had several 2 liter bottles of frozen water in the freezer. some of those went into a cooler for refrigerated items I thought we’d need - milk, deli stuff, yogurt, etc. The rest went into our freezer, which I then covered with heavy, heavy blankets. I only opened the freezer to get more ice bottles. Lucikly my neighbors still had power so they took in all my condimetns, etc. but if I didn’t have that option they would have been the first to go. If tshtf I think it’s more imporant to save food first. The freezer stayed cold for three days. At that point the power came back on so I don’t know how much longer it would have lasted, but it did the job when I needed it. We’d start cooking up what was in there if PF and it didn’t look like the power was coming back on. Once the ice starts to melt in the ice bottles then we have more water to drink.

PS I can’t take credit - HBB, BB and Eccles were my teachers!

Gary Near Death Valley – at 22:26

Milo – at 13:38 I have had chickens (egg layers) for 7 years now and maybe I can help you on this question. The eggs as laid from fresh chickens, have a covering over the eggs, that is easily cleaned off with water etc, and the covering allows the eggs to last longer in the wild. Once the eggs are washed etc (I use clorox in water not only to clean the eggs), then they are more susceptible to bacteria growth. A rule of thumb, and I have used this, is when collecting eggs, when placed into a container of water, they should sink fairly rapidly to the bottom, and if they “bob” in water, then disgard the egg as it is going south. The eggs you buy in the grocery stores are already cleaned and washed and they have been sitting idle for awhile before coming to your store and that is why the whites are fairly watery. Fresh farm eggs do not have this water inside. Eggs will last for a some time in the coolness of the refrigerator but if you wonder if they are good, do the water test to see if they float or “bob” and do not sink to the bottom. Disgard them if they “bob” etc.

13 November 2006

Oremus – at 00:42

Gary Near Death Valley – at 22:26

If they stand up at the bottom, in water, you can still use them. Discard if they float.

If you coat them with petroleum jelly they can be stored in a cool spot for a lot longer. I think I heard something like 6 months. Maybe someone can give the skinny on that.

RipleyRulesat 02:57

If you’ve ever kept hens, you know it’s not necessary to gather the eggs every day! Eggs are MADE to last a while without refrigeration.

That said, I’ve heard that commercial eggs have much of their protective outer layer (microscopic) damaged during processing/packagin/shipping, and therefore can’t last as long.

And again, I’ve heard dipping eggs in wax simulates this layer, making them shelf-stable for longer. I’ve read that in England there is a product specifically for coating eggs, but I would have no idea where to acuire such a thing. I’d go with wax.

RipleyRulesat 02:58

Oremus, we had just about the same idea! I’ll look for more detailed info.

RipleyRulesat 03:10

Here’s where I read about the British product… this page was found through the SCA (Society for Creative Anachronism), which is a group of folks who love studying and re-enacting Medieval/Renaissance eras. In the interest of not bringing coolers to events (very non-period!), this sort of thing comes up. I plan to read this entire page later, but until then, have at it!

http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/food-storage-msg.html

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