From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Horizon BBC 2 UK

07 November 2006

Breadmaker – at 16:19

This programme currently showing seems one of the best we’ve seen here in UK about B.F. Anyone in UK curently on-line should also be watching this.

uk bird – at 17:45

It was gooood! A great mix of fact, sober scientists and dramatisation to keep the suspense.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=horizon

here’s the location if you want to watch it.

The bit about encephalitus lethagica (SP?) was news to me.

flumonitor – at 18:01

This programme did not pull any punches. Nothing was played down from explaining Tamiflu usage, the difficulties of containment, to a detailed look at prepping (US example), to lack of vaccines, vaccine manufacturing capability, to viral evolution, to CFR (10%), to infection attack rates (60%), to ventilator shortages and more. I personally could not believe what I was seeing, but ditto the comment on encepahilitis lethargica, although I had heard that there was a thought that the two problems were related.

There were aspects that concerned me however 1. Tamiflu only any good if not used too EARLY or late after infection 2. Lack of any hint of political criticism in societal preparation pre-pandemic

If this was more of a propaganda/ preparation film my concern level as to imminence just went up by a very large amount.

Alan the Pom – at 19:00

I would be interested to read anon_22 views on the programme.

 My take, any newcomer to the subject of BF, would or prehaps even ‘should’ have found the programme very informative, but how many will take it on board and do something about it I cant be sure, maybe, just maybe we will have a few more converts.

For me it was what I would have expected, but the section on ‘encepahilitis lethargica’ was interesting, which I was not aware off. but after that, if we have done ‘our home work/research correct’ there should not have been any ‘surprises’.

Alan the Pom – at 19:13

anon_22. Do you know who will reply to our ‘email questions’

08 November 2006

AnnieBat 01:35

Here is the review from the Scotsman Online …

Shock and yawn of redundant scare stories TV REVIEW IAIN HEGGIE

Horizon, BBC2

LAST night’s Horizon, subtitled Pandemic, certainly laid it on thick. The music went all requiem-y. Footage of deserted cities turned black-and-white. Dots floated about the screen with a conspicuous attraction to the nose and mouth of passing humans. Computer-generated graphics showed maps of continents with blood red spreading out from major centres of population. Multicoloured cartoonised cowpats - like something from the Beano - were humourlessly superimposed on bird flu experts telling us why we should be very afraid. And tearful actors grossly overstated their impressions of real-life witnesses to an unfolding disaster.

This was a documentary with the one-note heavy-handedness of a pneumatic drill. Someone at the BBC clearly forgot to remind the makers of Pandemic that there’s a reason why shock and awe road accident and anti-smoking ads are over in seconds. Any longer and the law of diminishing returns kicks in, big style.

There wasn’t enough story in this predictive drama documentary to justify 30 minutes, let alone 90. All the programme had to do was explain how the human mutation of bird flu will work, how it will spread and why there is nothing we can do to prepare. There was no justification for taking the drama documentary route. There was no conflicting science to report, complete with opposing camps. There was no history of neglect or corruption to expose. There was no complacent hiding of heads in sand to struggle vainly against. There wasn’t even anything to campaign for (or, if there was, the makers didn’t tell us what it was). Without a protagonist pursuing a difficult high-stakes objective and faced by tricky conflict, there is no drama in a drama-documentary.

I don’t for one second doubt that bird flu can mutate into a form infectious between humans. I’m prepared to believe that it is only a matter of time before it will, and that the outcome could be disastrous. But in smearing its entire running time with an easy glaze of defeated sentimentality - whose statement amounted to no more than “isn’t it sad that people die?” - Pandemic made me want to kick against it and start constructing arguments to the opposite effect. For all its purple content, outside of the theatre I can’t remember the last time 90 minutes dragged so badly.

This article: http://living.scotsman.com/tv.cfm?id=1650842006

anon_22 – at 02:39

AnnieB – at 01:35

Unfortunately, that kind of review is typical of the British media, and may I also boldly say typical of British culture. It is the evil-twin-sister of that classic British virtue of stiff-upper-lip. What they have done is to confuse cowardice and hysteria after disaster has happened with prudence and planning against disaster.

Alan, I haven’t seen the progamme (yet) for various reasons, and I have no idea how they will respond to those questions. I think they might be responding online, but I’ll have to check.

flumonitor – at 03:06

I think that this is a consequence of media downplaying of the issue. for a long while, it has been a case of Bird Flu? Just another scare.

We now need public debate over the issues which this docudrama tried to raise, and because its the first time most will have had these issues raised, it is too much for them to take on board - because it is fatalistic. There are no magic fixes, and the british population needs to have its expectations managed. Up until now it has been a case of, ‘no worries, there will be a vacccine and we have a Tamiflu stockpile’ level of communication from TPTB. This message is therefore way off centre, and it is going to take people time to adjust.

A lot more programming and discussion will be needed before the British Public attitude adjusts. The fact that the regional media (this is at least the third sort of report I have seen like this) are so rejecting of the messages says that, if the government wishes to mobilise the media at any point to assist in education and to help manage the british publics expectations, they have a very, very long way to go just to get the reporters on board, never mind anyone else. They had therefore better get their skates on, if they feel that they need to use this media channel any time soon.

lugon – at 03:18

Do UK people blog? Yes: http://search.blogger.com/?ui=blg&q=pandemic+horizon Maybe there’s a way to look into Who’s who in that area, and see what they think (or become one of them).

Is BBC2 watchable elsewhere in the world?

AnnieBat 03:20

I caught a quick flick-thru of the BBC World service on tv this morning and it was advertising the pandemic programme for New York and Delhi times later in the week - I will watch closely to see if it eventually appears ‘down under’ - we usually get the horizon series on BBC World eventually.

Jumping Jack Flash – at 03:21

I can’t get the thing to play…

flumonitor – at 03:37

One other point to note: I would estimate this film was made sometime after the Karo cluster incidence, and the outbreak scenario was modelled on it - except in this scenario the virus did not dead end.

I am very puzzled about the introduction of encepahlitis lethargica at the end. No scientist has made a definitive connection between 1918 and its incidence, although it is very likely to be related. I cant help wondering that if the public reaction to this docu drama had been one of panic, this was in there so the accuracy of the programme could be called into question and ‘dismissed’.

UK Lurker – at 03:44

Anon_22, flumonitor

You are missing the point about The Scotsman review (especially Anon casting aspersions when she hasn’t even seen the programme). What could have been an excellent and insightful programme was almost comically bad. The reviewer is not attacking the premise of the programme but the dire (and pointless) ‘drama’ element and the ‘blockbuster movie trailer’ voice the whole way through, complete with scary music. Reporting like this does not help people to understand the problem and will only turn them away. There was no advice to the general public, and the important information was completely ignored - we saw only repeated dire predictions and John Oxford wandering around graveyards (and also a very patronising approach to the Americans). The Scotsman newspaper has provided excellent reporting on this subject and has never dropped the baton, even when it was old news for other newspapers.

Anon, you mistake so many things in the UK for ‘stiff upper lip’ - I am from the UK and don’t recognise the cultural stereotypes that describe so often. Our reporting may be harsh or at times very biased, but it is what keeps our politicians ant TPTB straight, and there is always a strong opposing view. Something that is sadly lacking in the press from other countries, including the US.

It is always interesting to see how those with a vested interest go into complete denial when they feel that their vision is being attacked. It ain’t so in this case, you interpreted things as you wished to see them. How, then, can we rely on you for unbiased views in future?

AnnieBat 03:59

UK Lurker

I posted the review to show there has to be a ‘balance’ of opinions about such matters - none of the other reviews have made it to the NewsNow news feed as yet …

I believe Anon_22 is British - not American, and has the right to comment on how she sees her culture.

I have been recently reading about many so-called documentary programmes having to resort to docu-drama style to get their message across to a younger changing audience … who knows - I look forward to seeing the programme once it is aired here.

Had I known that a simple post could cause such bitterness and angst then I would not have put it here - back into my shell and staying out of others way again seems to be the safest thing to do (sigh).

UK Lurker – at 04:11

“Had I known that a simple post could cause such bitterness and angst”

Annie, are you really so sensitive? Am I not entitled to the opinions that you hold in such high esteem - or can I only have an opinion if I agree with you or the majority voice?

I believe that Anon_22 is an American living in the UK.

AnnieBat 04:20

My apologies UK Lurker - I do not question anyones right to have an opinion - I hope my message didn’t imply that.

I guess I can be termed over-sensitive. I just don’t like my placing an innocent post starting a barrage of invective. I don’t cope with adverse confrontation and I hate to think I am the cause of it.

Shake hands and smile please.

uk bird – at 04:53

UK Lurker – at 03:44 What could have been an excellent and insightful programme was almost comically bad.

LOL! If you think the Horizon programme was bad, I take it you haven’t watched any of the other recent Horizon programmes or any of the other pandemic related fluff? Brit tv has had a long road of dumbing down. Compared to the normal rubbish Horizon have taken to showing, this was packed with ideas and facts. Yes there was dramatisation and daft special effects, but this wasn’t aimed at us (or a cynical media), it’s aimed at the general public. Personally I don’t like the technique but I know a lot of people who have only started to watch science or history programmes since they started mixing drama with information.

Sadly, if you expect any programme made by media studies students to be much better than this one you’re going to be endlessly disappointed.

As for advising the public on what to do, you first have to persuade them there is a problem in the first place.

anon_22 – at 05:11

I apologise for having started this! The remark that I made was not anything anti-British, in fact I did say that it is a much admired trait. But I do think that sometimes the media bends over backwards to try to appear stoic, and that’s what I meant. It is just a personal opinion, for what it’s worth.

No I’m not American. I’m British of ethnic Chinese origin. I hope this doesn;t become another race/country debate. My intention was more on debating media culture than British culture.

Apologies again for all the Brits who might have misunderstood what I meant.

lugon – at 05:13

I’ll love to see the program if I ever get my hands on it. Even more, I’ll like to see people’s reactions. If it has a “positive” effect on them (awareness and maybe some action), then it’s a good program. If the effect is “negative” (there’s no problem, it’s all hype, there’s nothing we can do, etc), then it’s not. In any case, it will not be the only “dose of awareness and practical advice” and we must do other things too.

If any of us things a better program can be done, then we need to start writing the script for it. Use any http://www.creativecommons.org license so that others will actually do the film, but we can write the script here. Even 10 minutes is a loooooong time.

(I’ve noticed my own anger at home. It’s a fact when trying to cope with stress. Note to self: add a punching ball to my preps. And be ready to spray-paint a huge smile on the wall.)

anon_22 – at 05:15

uk bird,

I’ll have to watch the programme to say what I think, but you are right in that the ones that I have seen before are rather disappointing. There was one panorama a while back that was quite good, but it didn’t make any impact as far as I could tell. So maybe they decided they have to make it more explicit?

lugon – at 05:16

… if any of us thinks

anonymous – at 05:22

I can’t play it either. Can it be downloaded ?

UK Lurker – at 05:24

Anon, my apologies - I don’t know where from but I thought that I had read on several threads that you were American. I may be contrary by nature, but I read the vast majority of your posts, whether I agree or not - your hard work is appreciated.

UK bird, I agree with you about the standards presented by Horizon these days. It used to offer the layman a chance to understand serious scientific issues but now, its portrayal of almost all subjects is tenuous at best (and presented in a sensationalist style wherever possible) - it is almost impossible to watch. I was very disappointed yesterday as I had asked friends and family members (all doubters) to watch in the hope that it might make them prepare, but those I have spoken to just thought it was alarmist rubbish. Unfortunately, I think the programme makers underestimate the intelligence of their viewers.

Annie, hand firmly shaken.

anon_22 – at 05:27

UK Lurker – at 03:44

How, then, can we rely on you for unbiased views in future?

I think there may be a misunderstanding here, about the role of the moderators. The last item on that link should help. Moderators also make comments in their own right, and they don’t represent anyone’s opinion but their own. Recently, for various reasons, some of the other mods have been otherwise occupied and post less frequently, but that is a temporary situation, and you will see a range of opinions from the mods when they post.

I hope that clears up the misunderstanding, again apologies for that.

Alan the Pom – at 05:28

UK Lurker. I feel your comments regarding anon_22 are unjust, she is entitled to express her views the way that she see it, as you are yours. Likewise WE are entitled to express our views. anon_22 has been prepared to ‘go public’ and give her point of view, which for me and I suspect many others, have found very useful. Your last sentence ‘It is always interesting to see how those with vested interest go into complete denial when they feel that their vision is being attacked’ could also be thrown back at you. For you to suggest that the UK media keeps ‘our politicians straight’ is in my view, interesting. I think if the UK public voted on that, you would lose hands down.

anon_22 – at 05:33

OK, time to go make a cup of tea, maybe…?

:-)

anonymous – at 06:23

green tea ?

anon_22 – at 06:32

No, Earl Grey, milk, no sugar, please.

cottontop – at 06:39

Aaaah, now there’s a woman after my own heart!

lugon – at 06:39

Can I? Oh, thank you, deah, ah, yes, sugar please, two.

lugon crosses legs (twice, like a curl) to protect privacy

cottontop – at 06:42

One lump or two?

cottontop – at 06:44

Two? Pass the scones please.

lugon – at 06:48

should start a page on “the role of court jesters”

anon_22 – at 07:00

cottontop,

OK, now I can’t wait to get back. Cream tea…

I think this thread has gone…somewhere.

:-)

lugon – at 07:11

Anyone knows someone able to write a script?

lugon SIPs, er, sips

Worried in Wales – at 07:14

I was interested to see that the poll on the horizon site yesterday showed that 49% of people who voted thought that AI was media hype, today that figure is down to 36% - perhaps, however bad it might have been (I have not yet seen it as I don’t watch TV much)it has done some good? Whether that translated to action on the part of the populace is another matter.

Anon 66 – at 07:15

I was shocked at how alarmist the program came over, although nothing potentially unlikely to happen, in fact no mention of food shortages or power outages that I noticed. The sleepy sickness, encephalytis lethargica was news to me, and if I’d not been v interested in the topic, I’d have changed channels - in fact my family all opted to go watch a different tv about quarter of an hour in. Nobody that I’ve spoken to this morning watched it all the way through, unfortunatly.

I think that maybe it’s not so much ‘stiff upper lip’ as a combination of ‘head in the sand’ and disbelief of the present governments motives.

As the credits were rolling on the Horizon program, mention of the following episodes subject was ‘voiced over’ - “are we descended from aliens” - !!! enough said !!! for many people watching. Maybe if Panorama had produced it?

Oh and can I go with a coffee and biccies

cottontop – at 07:22

Lady Gray is a good tea too. One simply cannot talk about Brits without the tea bit. And just my 2cents, I hope this thread doesn’t start Brit bashing because of the BBC show. I have not seem it, but I think any exposure at this point should be viewd as a postive thing. Don’t forget that we here are more “educated and aware” of this, than most people are. I think ya’ll were expecting a bit too much from the show, otherwise I wouldn’t be hearing the cries of “foul” from you people. Lightenen up and be PLEASED that this is getting exposure in any way. If that show sparked some people to start to take this seriously and start prepping, isn’t that the point?

uk bird – at 07:55

Anon 66 – at 07:15

No mention of food shortages or power outages that I noticed.

I thought the very same thing as I saw the lights all on at Trafalgar Square.

Anon 66 – at 07:15

As the credits were rolling on the Horizon program, mention of the following episodes subject was ‘voiced over’ - “are we descended from aliens” - !!! enough said !!! for many people watching. Maybe if Panorama had produced it?

I groaned and threw the newspaper at the tv when that came on.

But as Worried in Wales – at 07:14 poited out, more people are worried about BF than before (unless it’s just us lot checking the stats LOL). Which is good.

lugon – at 07:11 Anyone knows someone able to write a script?

uk bird – at 07:56

lugon – at 07:11 Anyone knows someone able to write a script?

I know the rules but I’m only an amateur.

Alan the Pom – at 08:31

OK folks, I have also had a cup of tea and have ‘cooled down’. Sorry for that outburst, and ask for us to get back to the important subject of BF. Once again sorry. Alan.

lugon – at 08:54

I think the script is exactly (well, not exactly exactly) the conversation we’ve just had here. People talking about the news. One alarmed, another dismissive, and the other one … our ideal, sensible, knowledgeable, ultra-wise fluwikian. She doesn’t exist, but she’s most definitely a woman. Perhaps a corageous granny, who doesn’t look like an expert in anything. The other two are a couple with a 5 year old picking his nose in the background.

lugon – at 08:56

There could be a phone call, unrelated to the story, with the granny saying “yes, ok, lovely deah” for long enough, just to give the viewer time to think for themselves.

cottontop – at 08:57

Alan the Pom-

Was that an outburst? What kind of tea?

Anon 66 – at 08:57

I’ve suggested to Panorama that they do a panflu episode - here’s hoping they say yes. bbc1 prime time

Alan the Pom – at 09:19

cottontop- at 08:57 It’s called ‘Tetley’ cant afford this ‘Earl Grey’ stuff. Plus it also had a shot of ‘whisky’ ‘medicinal’ due to our our current cold spell. !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Worried in Wales – at 09:25

OK, I’ve just watched it online and I actually thought that it was rather good as a beginners guide to pandemic flu. Yes it was a bit shrill in tone occasionally but then I think programmes sometimes have to be nowadays to get anyone’s attention. There is a great deal of information to fit into a short programme but it should have been sufficient to kick-start those willing to listen into action I think. Then they will do what we have all done and go looking for more information - not many of us were experts on flu or prepping when we first typed ‘bird flu’ into google.

cottontop – at 09:26

Alan the Pom- I use to drink Tetley, than discovered the Earl Gray. Would not go back to Tetley if you paid me. Would love to send you a box so you could try it. If medicinal liquor is required, mine is rum. ;-)

Alan the Pom – at 09:47

cottontop- at 09:26 OK I’ll try it and let you know what I think,with regards to the ‘whisky’ I take the view that if it’s good enough for the ‘Scots’ with just ‘Kilts’ on, then it must be beneficial for us ‘Southern guys’. Problem is if I do like Earl Grey, will need to get rid of about 10′000 tea bags. O well I can always do a trade later.

crfullmoon – at 09:51

waves hello at Alan the Pom

cottontop – at 09:56

Alan the Pom

actually, I like a little tea in my rum! ;-)

cottontop – at 09:59

waves hello to crfullmoon, and fallllls out of the chair!

Alan the Pom – at 10:18

Worried in Wales- at 09.25 Agree, if the programme brings a few more on board then it was worth it, I have monitored this forum for quite a while now, and most of what I know about BF and what action I need to take, has been gained through the people who post their views and comments on this forum. For me it is THE only reliable source of information that I can get,long may it continue.

cottontop – at 10:25

Exactly. That’s why I have business size cards printed up with the fluwikie2 website on it, and a brief discription of it’s purpose. That way when I do talk to someone who isn’t really interested in what I have to say, or on the fence about this, they have someplace to go with their questions, if they should become curious and want information.

I hope that’s o.k. with the mods. Just thought about that.

anon_22 – at 11:02

Tetley is what I buy to stock up, cos they come in giant packs. So does PG tips.

btw anyone here a Costco member? If you can find some way of becoming a member, so. They sell giant packets at wholesale prices. Of everything, basically. I got 3 pairs of reading glasses for £12.

No, I’m too young for reading glasses, they’re for my gran….<trying to lie convincingly>

Sorry, completely off topic. I’m in an airport lounge with very slow internet connection, so any chance to post is fun.


Since I’m off topic, but got all you Brits in one place cos of the beeb and cream tea, can I ask whether you think the time is ripe for fluwikie.uk? I don’t want to duplicate anything, and this site is always going to be the main site, but I’m beginning to think having a uk site will attract more attention.

Pros:

(they all end in a ? cos I’m not sure)

Cons:

What do you people think?

Any volunteers for hard labour?

Worried in Wales – at 11:08

I’ll volunteer, as much as time allows - what do you want done?

cottontop – at 11:21

anon_22

I think it’s an excellant idea.

(I love airports. There is so much energy. If I’m not traveling that is. ;-)

anon_22 – at 11:24

writing up the wiki. There has to be enough information for people to come look around. Otherwise they look around, go away, and never come again. If I get the framework of the wikie up, everybody can pitch in writing up or copying or editing pages.

I was slight hesitant because I didn’t want to launch a feeble product, but now I’m thinking we just get it started, but not advertise it too much till we have a little bit more substance, what do you think?

But we can have a forum right away. ie as soon as I can get the set-up done, and get an IT guy….

OK, I have to board my flight. Can someone start a new thread for this discussion? Like pros and cons, how many people think its a good idea, how manyu people willing to spend some time right at the beginning to get it going, or whatever else you think we need to know. I already have the domain and the server space (don’t know if its enough, I think it is but i have to check).

Homesteader – at 11:28

Anon 22:

Wow! Looks like you took the U.S. State Dept. warning seriously! Just kidding everyone, just kidding.

But wishing you safe travels and convenient connections.

London boy – at 11:33

Just saw the Horizon and thought it was pretty good. Although as others have said the ‘drama’ parts were at times ham-fisted and towards the end became distracting.

To be fair to the producers they are under a lot of pressure to make something accesable and dramatic - their main priority is not to educate the public on every aspect of Pandemic Flu but to entertain (I am a TV documenatry producer and have felt these pressures myself). As such the only way it can really be judged is if it was factually accurate and I think it largerly was.

I agreee that soemthing less dramatic might have made more people take pan flu more seriously - but ultimately that was not their job. You can argue that TV docs should be more than just enteratinment but that is probably a debate about the state of TV in general that belongs on another forum.

Worried in Wales – at 11:34

Anon 22,

I have some previous experience in web development if it is of any use although my skills are probably somewhat out of date by now. :)

uk bird – at 12:15

Reporting for duty!

I think I’d feel much less inhibited writing stuff up on a UK wiki. I confess I haven’t got a clue what’s being discussed on the fluwiki sometimes.

Because uk contributers are few and far between the posts sometimes get lost, so there might be more for newcomers to see if our stuff was bunched together.

There was a guy a while back inviting us all to visit his flu forum (didn’t strike me as commercial).

http://com1.runboard.com/bbirdfluuk

uk bird – at 12:16

(didn’t strike me as commercial).

and I mean that in a good way.

AnnieBat 22:45

Okay, in order to determine which Wikie I would use, we need to be speaking the same lingo (oops that’s the Aussies that say that) - language.

If you can answer YES to most of the above then I am in (big smiles)

cottontop – at 23:00

AnnieB-

a public line while waiting, is called a cue(sp?) green grocer is produce place a public phone is called a coin box a cigarette is called , yes, a fag

How am I doing AnnieB?

AnnieBat 23:06

Perfect, cottontop, perfect

Now, we just need to get those knotted hankies off your heads and stop you wearing socks with sandals …

anonymous – at 23:17

reminds me to this:
http://www.stephaniemiller.com/declarationofrevocation.htm

AnnieBat 23:25

Anon - love it - I have actually heard John Cleese read this aloud - brilliant!

anonymous – at 23:27

I still can’t watch the program error: rtsp://rmgeo.bbc.net.uk/bbctwo/media/programmes/horizon/nb/horizon_071106_full_16×9_nb.rm
with “real player”. We don’t need videos for interviews, just a text-file is fine.

cottontop – at 23:45

AnnieB- 23:06

If I ever wear socks wiht my sandles, and wear those horrid things on my head, well… just lock me up. Society can do without that.

I would love to be apart of the British thread, but really don’t know what I can offer. I am a Huge fan of the British have been for many, many years. I find every aspect of it fascinating. Speaking of John Cleese, need some help here. In one of the Monty Python’s, were their hanging on the crosses, what song are they singing?

09 November 2006

AnnieBat 00:07

cottontop - “Always look on the bright side of life” (do doo, da doo, da doo de do de doo)

Worried in Wales – at 03:11

That might make quite a good forum theme tune :)

“when you’re chewing on life’s gristle, don’t worry, give a whistle”

anon_22 – at 03:37

AnnieB,

Work on it, we might make you an honorary Brit one of these days.

btw did anybody notice that I use different spellings depending on who I’m writing to? Like neighbor, color, standardization, etc.

But, I gotta correct you on this one (gotta is very American), you have to use clotted cream, not whipped cream! Cornish clotted cream.

Sorry, that was too important.

anon_22 – at 03:39

But seriously, I do have a problem with the thought of people having to go to yet another site for info.

Should we just have very basic info but lots of links to fluwikie.com proper, extensive UK stuff, and a UK forum?

lugon – at 04:01

A UK wiki is a good idea if it happens magically. Now, the trick is to make it happen magically. We need to think beyond our own strenght and tap into the universe’s strengths. Were are those bloggers, discussion boards and so on in UK? We might want to think about it in terms of What would a wiki provide that they would like to contribute to? And also How can we create a framework that others will build into happily (thinking of us as first wave, other contributors as second wave, and the general public as third wave)?

Just thinking out loud. First thing is google for “blog pandemic uk” or something like it. A Hello, Universe!, kind of thing.

anon_22 – at 04:05

lugon

If you haven’t done so already, check out my presentation at the National Academies for the intellectual framework behind the idea of a wiki, as opposed to blogs or reagular sites.

lugon – at 04:07

Concept level, is the UK a local site, an entry site, a summary site, all of that, something else?

A local site: people add pages about what they are doing locally, discuss what local authorities are doing or not doing, meet-up points etc. If people feel at home and use it more, then it’s useful.

An entry site: people go to look for local things and find links to fluwikie.com and fluwikie2.com. Things can change over time: first you link to US recomendations and then you link to more specific UK (or European) recomendations.

A summary site: people who want to look at things and provide a summary “for us”.

Dunno. We will start small because there’s no other way we can possibly start.

anon_22 – at 04:10

lugon,

I like your ideas.

probably all of the above, but not a full Flu Wiki, cos we don’t need to duplicate stuff.

Or we could use it as a mirror site. Don’t know whether that is technically feasible or sound, cos I don’t know anything about it. People are always worried about the server being down, so maybe that might be an additional use. Have to find out from the geeks…

lugon – at 04:15

I had, erm, sort of, speed-read it.

very basic info but lots of links to fluwikie.com proper, extensive UK stuff, and a UK forum?

Looks doable. “Doable” is a great word.

lugon – at 04:21

mirror - we need to ask pogge for a copy, strip out the IP numbers (whoever wants to keep that!) and see how we can select a few things - possibly we need a read-only copy of the wiki side (fluwikie.com) + the forum-index page + then our own forum

first baby-step is ask pogge and some local geek

i could play the role of the local geek for the first baby-steps, then i’m bound to fall over to the side

anonymous – at 04:34

we won’t need a British fluwikie, if this forum would finally be reformed as announced with subforums etc. as the other forums.

Worried in Wales – at 05:38

How is it going to be financed?

Alan the Pom – at 05:39

annieB and cottontop. annie, I cant say yes to all your points, Q: why do YOU call it a ‘bathroom’ when you want to use the ‘toilet’or is your bath dual purpose. Q: A scone is not a scone, unless it has ‘devon’ cream on it.Q: Entree, saves washing up all the dishes. !!!! cottontop.’public phone boxes’ is ‘gold dust’ lucky if you find one that is working. To be ‘with it’ I decided to treat myself to one of those BIG yank hat, and those cowboy boots with high heels. when I went down the ‘high street’ everyone started to stare and gave those ‘sickly grins’ at me, that was not the end of my problems, the police was waiting for me when I got back to the ‘mule’he had kicked the ‘traffic warden’ when he tried to pin a parking ticket on it’s back side. plus the local council charged me for cleaning up ‘behind’ the mule. So to play safe I went back to my ‘socks sandals hankie’ Have a nice day.

lugon – at 06:52

anonymous, thanks for the tip - we’ll want to know about dates too

Worried in Wales – at 07:04

Anon 22,

Can I ask what exactly you are hoping to set up - wiki or forum? I’m confused because both seem to be being mentioned interchangeably.

I have to admit that I will be less willing to help with a forum for a variety of reasons.

The main one being that whilst I don’t wish to cause any offence, there have been a number of incidents on this wiki that have involved you as a mod that would indicate that it would be unwise to put a large amount of time and effort into a project that could run very quickly into ‘personality clashes’. A wiki would I think not cause such flare-ups but a forum would as has been seen here.

Alan the Pom – at 07:28

Worried in Wales at 07:04

 Sorry. I feel I am involved with your above comment, but I am who I am, if I feel something has been said that to me is offence, I cant let it go, and yes I have gone of tract a bit, but I do enjoy a bit of banter, please believe me I do have a serious side , and I have informed anon_22 that I will do all that I can to help out, my problem is that my IT skills are very limited.  In reply to your above post ‘No ofence taken’,and the point you have made is very valid.
anon_22 – at 07:34

anonymous – at 04:34 we won’t need a British fluwikie, if this forum would finally be reformed as announced with subforums etc. as the other forums.

That may be a little later, as far as I understand, and it’s one reason why I hesitated for a while. I’ll have to check with the other mods what the timescale looks like. Melanie’s been sick and Dem has been slightly occupied, but now we should be able to get back onto this subject soon. I appreciate everybody’s patience, but this is something we do on top of our regular lives, so its never going to happen as quickly as one wants.

This kind of delay, however, is not something that the UK can afford. While policy debates on the US goverment has grown healthily, I need to say that it didn’t happen spontaneously, that some people including myself, had to bring in very specific knowledge or interest to get it going. I’ve travelled twice in as many months to the US to attend conferences in DC for policy issues alone. That should tell you the level of focus needed to get things going.

We haven’t started anything on the UK. If I or anyone can do anything, we will need far more publicity and exposure to gain the level of input needed to make the information and discussions credible. Much as I love the level of debate on this forum, I do think that a UK or European site would have attract a different kind of participation.

From the British point of view, there may be much more participation especially on purely British issues if there is an entirely separate site. The ‘ownership’ of a process, a sense of belonging is quite important to make this a success. By having a British site, I’m hoping to attract more of those who are usually more reserved and don’t speak up as easily unless they feel very cosy.

As I said, this is all very much brainstorming/musing stage. It may be possible to merge several ideas together.

Worried in Wales – at 07:36

Alan the Pom – at 07:28

No, no! My remark was not regarding anything on this thread (well only the clarification of terms regarding wiki or forum). The personality clashes I refer to are incidents that Anon 22 has been involved in on the wiki during her work as a moderator. I don’t want to get into any big discussion of the rights or wrongs of the incidents, I simply want to point out that Anon 22 has a certain way of operating that implies “be reasonable, do it my way” and on a new forum I could see it quickly becoming an issue. I just want to clarify what sort of site she wants to set up, and to some degree what the ethos of that site would be and who would be in charge of it.

Absolutely nothing intended other than that. :)

anon_22 – at 07:44

Worried in Wales – at 07:04 Anon 22,

Can I ask what exactly you are hoping to set up - wiki or forum? I’m confused because both seem to be being mentioned interchangeably.

I have to admit that I will be less willing to help with a forum for a variety of reasons.

The main one being that whilst I don’t wish to cause any offence, there have been a number of incidents on this wiki that have involved you as a mod that would indicate that it would be unwise to put a large amount of time and effort into a project that could run very quickly into ‘personality clashes’. A wiki would I think not cause such flare-ups but a forum would as has been seen here.

I’m thinking of both. But don’t worry, nobody ever has to do anything they don’t want to do. To get started, there has to be a minimum level of good content, and I was hoping you and others can provide that, for the wiki side. As for the forum, what it requires is moderation, which probably can be done by myself or with someone else. I haven’t anybody in mind right now, so that;s just hypothetical.

Also, a forum is whatever participants bring to it. Over time, you will see the quality and focus changes, which is entirely appropriate. Certain debates get heated, then subside. Other topics that never came up before suddenly becomes interesting. So what happens on any forum at any given point is not necessarily representative of what forums are like.

Plus some people never use the forum. Some people only use the forum. I think it’s a habit thing. By having both, it’s easier to capture the interest and expertise of different types of people. For example, I myself have hardly contributed to the wiki content at all. Most of what appears there originated from myself had been kindly extracted from the forum and re-written by others.

To summarise, my current thinking is a wiki that has basic information, mostly linked back to this site, but with much more UK specific information. And a forum that only carries UK specific debates. I don’t know if it will work, there are issues that we’ll need to think through.

anon_22 – at 07:50

Worried in Wales – at 07:36

FWIW, “be reasonable, do it my way” is always going to be the motto of any moderator, on any forum. :-) One can’t avoid making certain judgments sometimes. As pogge said, try visiting forums where anything goes. You will see that pretty soon it will degenerate into such a state that you won’t want to be there.

The only thing one can hope for is that it doesn’t happen very often. Or that people are grown up enough to get over it and focus on the task at hand.

anon_22 – at 07:53

Alan, writing stuff for the wiki does not need a high level of IT skill.

Perhaps one intermediate way (while I’m trying to decide whether I want to spend even more time doing this), is to keep adding UK specific information to the UK parts of this site. If that works well, and we can attract an increasing level of participation, then we may not even need a separate entity. It’s just that lugon and myself and a couple of others have played with this idea on and off for a while, and it hasn’t quite gone away. But we can certainly just expand the UK portion right now.

Worried in Wales – at 07:56

anon_22 – at 07:44

Please don’t patronise me anon_22, as you would see from my comment at 11:34 yesterday I have a background in website development and I am fully aware how forums work. What I was asking you have essentially answered - you intend to moderate the forum if it comes into existence. I do not feel from what I have seen of your behaviour on this forum that you have the necessary qualities of unbiased judgement required for a moderator. My feeling, rightly or wrongly, is that you want a forum that you can ‘rule’ without contradiction. Others will disagree and will help build your forum, I on the other hand will stay with this forum and add what small information I can here.

Good luck with your endeavours however and I hope it comes to fruition for you, the more information out there, the better.

anon_22 – at 08:09

Worried in Wales – at 07:56

I’m sorry you feel that way. OTOH you are certainly entitled to your opinions. And as I said, nothing is decided. The only reason why I might want to do anything like that is if there is big enough demand, that people do think a separate forum is worthwhile. Otherwise, why do it?

See my thoughts at 11:02.

And even if peole do think so, and there is a demand, chances are I still may not be able to do it. So it’s less of a question of what I want, rather what is the best way forwards to increase awareness and preparedness in the UK.

anon_22 – at 08:10

And please don’t patronise me either. Thank you.

Worried in Wales – at 08:11

I didn’t - I questioned your sense of absolute entitlement.

anon_22 – at 08:15

Worried in Wales – at 08:11

In the interest of the more important subject matter at hand, I am refraining from expressing my thoughts at your statement.

Let’s all move on.

anon_22 – at 08:29

I need to clarift one thing though. This whole discussion started when I requested everybody’s opinion at 11:02 about this whole idea, whether it would be worthwhile in order to bring more interest. And as you can see from that same post, I’m hardly chomping at the bit wanting to do it.

I thought it was very clear…

lugon – at 08:30

Expanding the UK portion of the wiki looks like a possible thing to do, and could be copied later if wanted. There’s already a page for UK official plans, with room for news. There’s probably a couple of threads opened by/for UK “preppers”. What else do we need?

Off topic: WiW: a quick suggestion is “if in doubt, please create your own forum”. But thinking more slowly about what you wrote, my guess is things will get harder, not easier, for anon_22 if/when there’s specific UK action. She’ll get more heat (with or without reason, depending on perception), not less, so she’ll have to think harder still. She’ll also get more congrats and thankyous too. All of that from people who, like you and I, write without our real names and without subjecting ourselves to that kind of heat. I imagine she’d better ask Santa for an asbesto suit. A light one, so she can keep working.

anon_22 – at 08:35

lugon,

I don’t need an asbestos suit. I need more time. That’s my biggest limitation.

lugon – at 08:36

anon_22,

I’d let you have mine (my time) if I had some. :)

anonymous – at 08:37

a British forum is OK, as long as it specializes in British subjects.
I don’t like the idea to further distribute the general H5N1 content
to more and more forums. We already have fluwiki,curevents,flutrackers,
avianflutalk,planforpandemic,askmonotreme,effectmeasure…
and often the threads are identical.


I would like all the forums to be merged

anon_22 – at 08:39

anonymous – at 08:37

I would like all the forums to be merged

I tend to agree with you. That’s why I’m reluctant unless there are clear and strong benefits.

uk bird – at 08:45

Sigh.

I think expanding the uk section of this site might be the best thing for now. I’d put the Brit forum thing on hold until the next cluster of deaths. People are very touchy right now because of a lack of meaty news (rumours, suspicions, etc abound). Either that or International PMS Week has been well supported by fluwikians of both sexes ;-)

If you recognise yourself in the above statements and are angry about it, you prove my point. If you don’t recognise yourself and you’re angry about it, you also prove my point.

anon_22 – at 08:48

lol

DemFromCTat 09:21

uk bird – at 08:45

I resemble that remark. ;-)

Folks, we’re all trying to do the right thing and this remains an experiment with no road map. No one is being patronizing… sensitivities are dialed up to High right now as we continue out group adjustment reaction (IMHO the Forum has been accurately characterized as being exactly that) and we all respond differently to stress.

DemFromCTat 09:23

In any case, let’s not hijack the thread, which is about http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbctwo/programmes/?id=horizon.

Alan the Pom – at 10:01

anon_22. I am inclined to agree with uk bird. Your contribution on this forum is very much appreciated by me, and I suspect many others, and may also relieve you of a heavy work load. With regards to ‘moderators’ they play an important role, I ‘think’ I had my hand smacked by crfullmoon on this thread, for posting what I thought was funny a post, but when you consider the culture difference with other places around the world, it may not have been seen as funny, and I fully respect that. (if fact crfullmoon, I half enjoyed it, could you do it again, sorry crazy Brit humour) I have no issue with the moderators motto of ‘be reasonable,do it my way’ and I suspect due to the popularity of this forum not too many others do. So keep up the good work you Mods, and thanks for your hard work. (yes I’am a creep)

cottontop – at 10:27

creep- I mean Alan the Pom

Yes, all the mods do a great job, and I’ve stated before I would not want their job or their shoes.( be way to big for me. I wear a little girls size 4.)

I have no problem with their motto either, and I do make an effort to stay out of the sandbox when the sand starts flying. That’s what the parents, uh, mods are for, should it come to that.

Whatever is decided about the UK version is fine with me. We do need more sites out there. I’ll run the court jester thread. Anybody like to join me? Would like BB, but he’s too busy howling at the moon!

Alan the Pom – at 11:35

What!! no comment on my post 05:39 to you and AnnieB ?

anon_22 – at 11:48

I’m starting a UK News And Comments thread.

We can certainly have a UK preps thread. We did have one before, then it sort of fizzled out.

cottontop – at 11:48

Alan the Pom- Sorry I missed that one.

LOL!!!! What a sight you must have been! What did you do with the mule? still LOL!!! Picture is in my head!

Alan the Pom – at 12:14

She now part of my prep. ‘all salted down in the tub’ Think we best close this banter now.

AnnieBat 16:26

I have linked the UK News and Comments thread into the News Summary so it should show each day - the next 3 will be done by MaMa in my absence so give it a chance.

Instead of creating extra work for our already busy Mods, is someone in the UK prepared to start a local Wiki and have this site help out so to speak? IMHO, a local site could be very useful in getting the message across - perhaps it could spread to a commonwealth flavour as well?

(Alan the Pom - nice story - good laugh)

lugon – at 16:30

AnnieB - local Wiki - that’s the idea we’re trying not to think of, so to speak. It’s tempting in a way, and it also means yet more work, with no idea about the real benefits or load-sharing.

There’s http://europepanflu.blogspot.com and maybe we could ask the owners of that blog to let us post there - or maybe we can create our own blog.

crfullmoon – at 16:48

I ‘think’ I had my hand smacked by crfullmoon on this thread,

-huh?? (guess I need to go see The Brain Specialist) I thought I waved hello- I was happy to see you around…

ta ta for now - (I’m supposed to be out the door again, darn internet; time drainer.)

Alan the Pom – at 17:17

crfullmoon 16:48 Sorry mis-understood. Work work and more work, but back in town now.

10 November 2006

Anon 66 – at 07:49

FWIW I think that it’s a great idea having separate ‘area’ whether wiki or forum for Brits regarding preparing for pandemic/or other catastrophies - as we have different stores, weapons issues, culture/humour etc - but definitly still linked in for news - no point in having to separate news items.

Personally I’d be happy to add in occasionally, but can’t spare a lot of time to help - sorry. I think the mods do a great job of mediating and eliminating trolls - great work and thanks.

Because the threads keep moving down as other more popular threads are developed, until a lot of British people were adding into the site, maybe the thread would keep dropping out of site?

Maybe different sites (fluwiki,planforpandemic,flutrackers,curevents etc) could provide a link so that the Brits who do research at any of these sites could find a common area - or is this too political? At the moment I seem to spend a lot of my day searching 5 sites for Brit relevant topics after I’ve checked out world news at my favourite site of the moment. I guess time could be better spent delving outside for news to bring in.

17 November 2006

DemFromCTat 12:48
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