My son is in an ROTC unit that has been tasked with role playing an angry and agressive crowd as part of an exercise to train the National Guard in the event of a pandemic. He tells me that they get to taunt the soldiers and throw tennis balls at them. Some of the scenarios include crowds outside of vacination clinics, and mobs outside of grocery stores. I’m not sure what units are to recieve the training, but it is being held in Toledo Ohio, so one would assume it to be the Ohio guard. I’ve asked him to get hold of any written material he can on this.
Retired ParamedicMI – at 19:19
Thank you for relaying this information.
As folks here on the fluwiki forum like to say, “Watch what they do, not what they say.”
Doing this sort of training says alot.
(I’m all for the training, by the way.)
Ohio seems to be light years ahead of Michigan in preperation.
Tennis balls, forsoothe!
Does anyone remember the riots of the ‘60s? Watts? The Rodney King riots? *Tennis balls*? *taunting*
I’d laugh if it weren’t so horribly sad; it’s like John Cleese and company training troops- Monty Python’s Flying Pandemic Preparation!
It’ll be like trying to put a bandaid on the Titanic’s hull after the iceberg gashed it…….
The troops ought to be training with full MOPP gear against panicked people using molotovs and small arms fire. Countersniper, urban guerrilla ops and fire hose handling ought to be the order of the day……
Not to mention they’re training to protect the wrong things; the clinics are toast 2 days after the pandemic starts. What they ought to be training for is as replacement electrical power workers. Sigh.
I guess I am not surprised, but I am deeply disappointed.
Absolutely you are spot on, LMWatBullRun, “What they ought to be training for is as replacement electrical power workers.”…and water works operations.
LMWatBullRun – at 20:44 As I have said before, TPTB need to bend over firmly grasp both of their ears and give a hard pull. The popping sound you would hear is them finally understanding that they have a problem.
Replacement power workers absolutely do not go out if someone is gonna take a shot at them etc. I don’t believe walking through hordes of mobs is in their job description either. The national guard should be training as the replacement electrical power workers.
man I hate it when that mental alarm bell of mine starts to scream like this… your information seems very ominous in the current swirl of panflu news these last few days
It looks like somebody is expecting infected zombies hoards. Lord, I’m glad I live in a small town.
Retired ParamedicMI – at 19:19
Thank you for posting this. Please let us know as/if you learn more.
If anyone else knows of similar drills occuring in other areas, please post that info if you are comfortable doing so. Would be good to get a sense of how widespread this type of activity is.
see a Current Threat Assessment at 13:30 the post by Bird Guano.
He put up a visual of a way to asses threats by the federal (US) government, I think.
The chart showed that when the outcome could be catastrophic, when the chances of it happening move from slight to moderate, you stop planning and actually start training and buying, and doing.
Ethically speaking, wouldn’t there be fewer “angry and agressive” people to react to, if the past “God-given” 11 months had been spent educating the public about what actions they need to take in a Pre-Pandemic Alert Period to be better-prepared to cope during a “12–18 month blizzard”?
(Bet the national guards’ families aren’t being told how to prepare for high attack rate/high mortality rate possibilities, either.)
Certainly I would have thought the Guard would be talking to local communities how best to help keep their essential services up and running, and with how local communities will care for citizens “homebound by illness or quarantine” - since it is on them to do so without state or fed aid.
Oh wait- I don’t think local officals *are* preparing for that, or they would have told the public to start stocking up, just in case, back in Oct, when the WHO “10 Things” (9 things, sir) and the US pandemicgov websites went up…
Just going to try and plan to fail, react to the worst, and then say “no one could have foreseen” it would be this bad?…be quiet; Martial law, unpatriotic to question authority during a pandemic, ect…
Retired ParamedicMI, Thank you, and all the best to you and yours.
I thought this was interesting…. from the National Guard Bureau
The National Guard and Disaster Preparedness
Since 1636, the Guard has served America as both a wartime force and the first military responders in times of domestic crisis. Hundreds of times each year, the nation’s Governors call upon their National Guard to respond to fires, floods, hurricanes, and a host of other natural disasters. Preparing for, and responding to, whatever Mother Nature throws our way – from Hurricane Katrina to Avian Flu – is how we live up to our motto: The National Guard: Always Ready, Always There.
Another interesting tidbit…this one from the United States Army site….
CAMP BULLIS, Texas (Army News Service, Feb. 8, 2006) – A world-renowned cardiologist and top-ranked university vice president, Dr. Ward Casscells joined the Army at age 53 and led the service’s research on avian flu before graduating Feb. 3 from his officer basic course…..
Army tops bright career
The Delaware native has forged a career many peers respect and admire. He went to Yale University in Connecticut, then Harvard University in Boston, where he earned his medical degree. After his residency, he worked at the National Institutes of Health in Bethseda, Md., for six years. From there, he moved to Texas as chief of cardiology at the University of Texas-Houston Medical School, where he helped draw a connection between heart attacks and the flu, then branched out into avian flu research……
“Bird flu is poised to be an explosive problem,” Casscells said. “I give Gen. Kiley a lot of credit for wanting to be at the forefront of medical planning.”
COMMENT
So the Army has an interest in Avian Flu Specialists….
Not what they say…it’s what they do.
LMWatBullRun: I’d laugh if it weren’t so horribly sad; it’s like John Cleese and company training troops- Monty Python’s Flying Pandemic Preparation!
I don’t know if it’s lack of coffee, lack of sleep or what, but that comment had me roaring with laughter. It would be even funnier if it wasn’t so true.
Thanks for the only laugh I ever had on this board.
Now…back to business…
Very interesting that they are permitting this person to actually join the military, rather than be a consultant/civilian employee. You aren’t supposed to be able to join after age 35…er…I think it just got raised to 42 because they aren’t getting enough troops for Iraq.
The bonus to the military is that they can order this guy around completely and they “own” him and his research.
If he was a civilian, he could always “quit”. Then again, with teh Pandemic Laws, I guess they could always choose him for “forced labor”, unpaid, when TSHTF. -So maybe he is making the smart move by joining up, knowing he would be involuntarily volunteered in the event TSHTF anyway. -at least he’ll draw a decent paycheck through it all and receive any available medication and vaccines first.
You know, after reading this thread and then seeing this article today (of course buried and not from MSM), I am now SURE that TPTB have decided to forgo steps 1 and 2, and concentrate on 3. If that doesn’t raise you ppf, then it might be too late when you do raise your ppf!
‘’Modern defense plan
In response to the threat of a possible pandemic flu, the United States has published a “National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza” that outlines a three-pillar approach to preventing a major disaster.
Pillar One – Preparedness and Communication: In this stage the focus is on educating the public about the risk of a pandemic flu and producing and stockpiling vaccines and antiviral medications so that people will be prepared if a pandemic breaks out.
Pillar Two – Surveillance and Detection: The best offense is a good defense. This pillar focuses on monitoring the incidence of the virus overseas, an early warning system to prevent the virus from entering the country, and initiating vaccinations.
Pillar Three – Response and Containment: In the event that a pandemic flu enters the U.S. and outbreaks begin, the focus will shift to slowing and preventing the spread of the flu to lessen health, social, and economic impacts. Authorities will have the power to limit nonessential movement of people, goods, and services to and from outbreak areas, limit social gatherings, and even call for quarantines.’‘
I also thought that this was interesting…the WHO admitting that a pandemic is imminent - in Feb of 2005! I just got interested in this, early this year, so maybe you have already seen this. I apologize for this post, if you have, but it seems the opposite of what I’ve heard them say, now.
TreasureIslandGal – at 10:56
I suspect he has joined out of a combination of patriotic duty and the desire to be in the forefront of avian influenza research. The fact that he has done this speaks volumes about what he probably thinks is likely to be the issue in the near future. I applaud his decision and hope he is able to make a difference. I wonder if he was recruited?
Seems the NG are dammed if they do, and dammed if they dont. If they practice anything, even if its perceived to be misguided, people think they know something we dont and arent telling us. If they dont practice anything, they would be condemned for having their head in the sand. It seems as if they are in a no-win situation. ….Like the rest of us.
Doctors are leaving private practice in droves. Lots are choosing the military. They pay all their debt and let them do research and pay for more education and conferences. It could be patriotism, or it could be the desire to be in the center of the fight over the next new bug. Snowhounds story is interesting…people I know in the Army don’t hear anything about AF. So, the planners are ready and that’s interesting on its own.
Perhaps its also related to grant money drying up over the past few years. Perhaps going into the military is the only way to get enough money to do the research some are interested in, if its in the right field that is. Just a total guess.
Is this the Pacific Command by any chance?
Pac Con seems to be at the forefront of most of the avian flu preparedness in the military.
Well, there is one thing that I do know, and that is, all of the services study their military history. During the pandemic of 1918, the military was at the forefront in dealing with the pandemic, and I imagine that they are not going to take this threat lightly, and will have learned many valuable lessons from the past.
I also found several military articles with regard to “avian flu”, which seems what they are officially calling it, if any would be interested.
Naval Hospital Bremerton Prepares for Pandemic in 3-Day Drill
Story Number: NNS060728−15 Release Date: 7/28/2006 1:03:00 PM
By Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Fletcher Gibson, Naval Hospital Bremerton Public Affairs
BREMERTON, Wash. (NNS) — Naval Hospital Bremerton concluded a three-day pandemic flu drill July 20 designed to test the process for receiving patients after the outbreak of an infectious illness.
The scenario played out for a few hours each day from July 18 to July 20 and involved an outbreak of human-transmitted avian flu…….
“We wanted to look primarily at what happens in the first 72 hours,” he said…..
The lessons learned from this drill will be applied to an even larger pandemic drill Morash is planning for October. Although still only in early planning, he hopes to involve up to 25 casualties and possibly involve Navy Region Northwest Emergency Management.
Marine Corps News
Commanders’ forum targets avian flu awareness Aug. 18, 2006; Submitted on: 08/17/2006 09:42:48 PM ; Story ID#: 2006817214248
By - Okinawa Marine Staff, MCB Camp Butler
From the Marines…
CAMP FOSTER, OKINAWA, Japan (Aug. 18, 2006) — A commanders’ educational forum at Camp Foster’s Butler Theater Aug. 8 took aim at educating U.S. and Japanese leaders and raising awareness about avian influenza, also known as bird flu.
Leaders from III Marine Expeditionary Force, Marine Corps Bases Japan and U.S. Naval Hospital Okinawa and Kadena Air Base arranged the event to focus senior leaders here on avian flu concerns and prompt them to educate their personnel as well…..
“There is no need for hysteria or panic, but the threat of pandemic is real,” said Lt. Cmdr. David Asseff, a preventive medicine and tropical disease physician with III MEF. “We might never have a pandemic, but people should be aware and educated. A little prevention goes a long way.”
Medical professionals from USNH Okinawa and Kadena Air Base’s 18th Medical Group and several III MEF officials covered a variety of topics including emergency evacuation procedures, medical responses and priority personnel.
The forum covered such specifics as contingency procedures during a pandemic. In case of an overflow at USNH Okinawa, for example, Camp Lester middle school’s gym would function as a medical facility.
Snowhound1 – at 13:02 Well, there is one thing that I do know, and that is, all of the services study their military history. During the pandemic of 1918, the military was at the forefront in dealing with the pandemic
“Dealing with” = “spreading,” right? ;)
Edna Mode…..Actually, yes. :) But at the same time, some of the finest doctors of the time were in the military and were also studying the virus and doing their best to come up with a vaccine. Their recommendations were to suspend troop movements, etc. Unfortunately the Commander in Chief turned a deaf ear to the recommendations. Perhaps the “Commander in Chief” at the time of a modern day pandemic, will also have studied his or her history, and not make the same mistakes as Pres. Wilson did in 1918. :) I am an optimist at heart.
Just as a sidenote, upon checking the site meter in months past I have seen people from the Dept. of Defense on Fluwiki….so someone is reading.
Snowhound1 – at 13:33
Does the site meter tell you how many ‘lurkers’ there are? Just curious…
JWB..sure…check it out…It is the little rainbow colored box at the bottom of the left margin. It takes a little exploring to find out what you are looking for once you are there, but is very interesting.
Snowhound1 – at 14:24
Cool! Thanks! I new toy to play with!
Snowhound - It sounds as if you have a military background and really know what you are talking about. Are you a veteran?
Not a veteran, just a brat…Father was a West Pointer, but spent his career in the Air Force. Totally immersed in “that” life for most of my “formative” years. :) My Dad worked a lot in reconnaissance and electronic warfare later in his career.
Folks,
Civil disturbance operations (and there have been a number of acronyms describing the function) has been a mission of the NG for decades. This is because NG units are under the control of the Governor of a state unless federalized by Presidential order. They are the Governors’ army and his/her ultimate resource in case all systems fail. NG units engage in a prescribed number of hours of CD training annually - I conducted many such iterations myself. There is nothing unusual here.
Active military units also conduct CD training. It didn’t use to be central to their mission as it was in the Guard, but CD operations and training are taking on new importance due to the increasing prevalence of ‘non-traditional’ peacekeeping and nation-building missions, the co-called OOTW - Operations Other Than War. Personnally, I liked the more straightforward kill-people-and-break-things approach, but I’m an anachronism and, fortunately for all concerned, retired. Things are more complicated now. I even suprised myself when I found myself rooting for Gene Hackman in Crimson Tide! :o)
The military is paying close attention to the panflu issue for a number of reasons. Chief among them are that they may be tasked with a myriad of control and support missions if TSHTF and, panflu could SERIOUSLY degrade their capabilities if it gets a foothold and runs rampant through the ranks.
Bottom line is yes, the military is probably preparing for a panflu outbreak on a number of levels, but don’t read too much into it. They like to prepare for all sorts of contingencies, no matter how unlikely they seem at the time. (and panflu is in the more-likely category). I’m sure that somewhere there is a file cabinet with a plan for invading Antarctica - although not even the folks who drew it up could imagine why we would want to!
I have to agree totally with you Sarge. I know that the branches have contingency plans for just about everything, including aliens? >;) I would like to be optimistic though and hope that through their contingency plans, the military will be in a better position than most private sector organizations, to deal with a pandemic and all the repercussions of such, should that occur. I also have a pretty good idea that they have “eyes” watching what is happening in China, Indo and elsewhere, and are in a better position to gauge when and if something will occur. When they step things up, I will definitely be paying attention.
Okieman – at 12:18 --- Ditto. He went into “Officer” training, not recruit boot camp. More than likely, he served in the armed forces at some point in the past, and the military is always looking for people who are specialists in their field to fill necessary posts, no matter the age. With the kinid of funding he can receive from the military for AF research, as opposed to closed-ended private financing, he could get a lot more research done.
Under the category of “Watch what they do”…
Military bases are connected to civilian communities. Many (most?) of the troops and their dependents live off-base. The military community will get spun up IMMEDIATELY in the event of a confirmed panflu outbreak almost any where in the world. This is because there are military personnel on every continent and in every time zone, and people are constantly rotating back and forth. This will spill over into the civilian community and the rumor machine will go into high gear. It would be hard to try to hide it - not that anyone would. However, it will take a lot of fast talking to calm down the associated civilian population who aren’t impacted, yet, and get them over the initial panic and into the prepped-and-wary mode that we all hope to see.
Snowhound1 – at 13:31 …some of the finest doctors of the time were in the military and were also studying the virus and doing their best to come up with a vaccine. Their recommendations were to suspend troop movements, etc. Unfortunately the Commander in Chief turned a deaf ear to the recommendations. Perhaps the “Commander in Chief” at the time of a modern day pandemic, will also have studied his or her history, and not make the same mistakes as Pres. Wilson
True enough, Snowhound1!
As for your optimism, I wish I shared it. Our current commander in chief appears to be emulating Wilson on way too many fronts as it is. There was explicit and self-censorship of the press under Wilson that constrained the free flow of information about flu. I won’t argue there is explicit censorship these days, but there is much self-censorship by MSM in the name of patriotism—another tool exploited by the Wilson administration. And, while the current administration isn’t (to the best of our knowledge so far) censoring our snail mail, it is eavesdropping illegally on our electronic and digital communications.
Now, I know this may seem like a political screed, which we aren’t supposed to engage in on this forum, but all of this IS related to pandemic. All of these points were made last spring by a leading epidemiologist while giving a presentation on pandemic flu. She compared and constrasted the domestic and international situations in 1918 and 2006. The similarities in political environment in the US and the world situation with war were striking. The growth in population, particularly in crowded cities, was depressing in its implications.
On the other hand, the president has read Barry’s book, The Great Influenza, and Leavitt has sounded an alarm in all the states, so maybe this CinC will avoid past errors. I hope.
With all due respect, watch what they DO, not what they say.
At this point, absent a willingness to impose draconian restrictions on air travel at the first sign of a pandemic on the part of the current administration, combined with the political will in the House and Senate to sustain such, the ability of the Federal Government at this point to change the outcome is ZERO. Whether or not there will be a pandemic in the US is not within human control at this point, unless there is a drastic shift in policy.
Given that this is the case, it’s all about damage control and recovery now, and the training the Guard is presently attempting is about damage control.
UPDATE:
The exercise is tomorrow at the university of toledo main campus. It has been modified now to have the Guard troops keep the civilians out of the mock distribution site.
More as I get it, you know how teens are.
UPDATE to the UPDATE:
My bad folks, ssometimes getting info out of my kid requires dental pliers.
The training exercise is for the ENTIRE ohio national guard and is being conducted at Camp Perry near Sandusky. All MP Battalions and Infantry units.
IMHO, the armed guards need to placed near hospitals, clinics etc during a pandemic. According to Barry’s book “The Great Influenza, in 1918 (which we tend to think of as such a refined time) nurses were kidnapped to provide care…..
Now zip to 2006…where it seems every 15 year old has an Uzi…..
The problem is, there are too many places that will need armed guards and too few to fill that role. Some places will be written off without a doubt. I can just imagine a conversation 10 years from now:
“Are you crazy? Thats in Sector 4. Nobody goes into Sector 4 anymore, not since the pandemic of ‘07.”
WASHINGTON (AP) — Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday.
The object is basically public relations. Domestic use would make it easier to avoid questions from others about possible safety considerations, said Secretary Michael Wynne.
“If we’re not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation,” said Wynne. “(Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press.”
The Air Force has paid for research into nonlethal weapons, but he said the service is unlikely to spend more money on development until injury problems are reviewed by medical experts and resolved.
I say test these weapons on the Air Force secretary and his family first.
anonymous – at 21:53 I say test these weapons on the Air Force secretary and his family first.
Well yes, I’m all for testing the weapon out on the secretary and family as soon as the secretary and his family are involved in a riot situation (which is the situation I think he is suggesting—not controlling innocent crowds at the county fair).
When did “crowd-control “ become riot
How about crowds wanting food in a pandemic?
Anonymous at 21:53:
They used those microwaves on the pirates that attacked the cruise ship off Africa. It looks like the old style dish netwark—the big one. I saw a picture of one in Iraq loaded in an Army truck. When you read about what a microwave beam can do-heats up your blood (re ie stroke and heart attack), makes people literaly scream from major organs they weren’t aware of responding in pain, including chest pain and fainting. And hey, let one soldier beam it out too long or too high for the size of the crowd—. The day they turn that on US citizens—well I’ll let LMW at Bull Run explain what will happen. I agree let his family and him take a hit first—I mean multiple hits—just so we all know its safe.
Non lethal weapons have turned out to be very lethal. For instance police must be tazed usually just once as part of their annual training. But imagine you’re trying to get help for your child and you get tazed multiple times. Before tasers there were bean bags—bean bag took out a woman’s eye after celebrating over a sports championship. Non-lethal is a misnomer. Of course, if we don’t go along with the use of non-lethals on us the only alternative is real bullets. At least they won’t be sneaking up to kill you.
Well the AF Secretary wants to TEST IT On US Citizens Before using it “on the battlefield”
We may need better Military Leadership. Lets ask the Secretary of Defense if he supports such tests on US Citizens.
anonymous – at 23:10 When did “crowd-control “ become riot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_control
I’m not defending the AF dude. It was a stupid comment he made. And it is not a nice technology. I get annoyed with the US in general for coming up with new weapon technology which will in short order be in arsonals around the world.
also anon:
Did you read under lasers- to blind and DAZZLE rioters? Creepy, as is the low sound cannons.
also anon- at 23:48 “I’m not defending the AF dude. “
He’s not a dude. He’s the Secretary of the Air Force and we deserve better.
Leo7 – at 23:57
RE: lasers to blind and DAZZLE rioters and low sound cannons….
Yes, very disturbing all the way around. Unfortunately the very effective and quite safe crowd/riot control technique of yesteryear — high pressure water hoses — fell into disfavor after some highly publicized incidents in the 60s. If I was inclined to civil disobedience I’d sure rather be blasted with a water hose than a microwave or laser.
I have no intention of being involved in any riots, especially not during an H5N1 pandemic. I might get sick!
the secretary reminds me of Marie Antoinette’s attitude shortly before the Terror….. “those who do not study history are doomed to repeat it.” A guillotine is an easy to build low tech device, and a trial need not take long.
“a tisket, a tasket, a head in a basket. It cannot respond to questions you ask it!” (gee Mr. Secretary, do you think microwaving your own people is a good idea? Hmmmm? Blink once for yes, twice for no…..)
As far as a microwave dish is concerned, I doubt that the beam spreader is bulletproof. I also doubt that the operators are, either. Even if they’re protected by good armor, they have to get out and pee sometime……. But all of this nonsense is silly season stuff. I simply don’t believe that any US military personnel would obey such a blatantly unlawful order. Microwave US citizens? Naaah!
Going back to the question of what the Guard should train for, I’d strongly recommend to TPTB that they ALL be crosstrained in power plant operation and electrical service maintenance, as well as water treatment and sewage treatment operation. The public clinics and hospitals will be shut down and OOS within a few days of the start of a pandemic. The cops and military will have medics, but not any civilians. Those HCW that aren’t sick or dead simply won’t show up during a bad pandemic, and I don’t blame them. There is a limit, after all. Since we aren’t going to have any health care anyhow, at least none better than you could get at home, the smart play is to reinforce our critical infrastructure. THAT is the only way we get through this as a functioning nation.
It is truly astounding that this individual would recommend that we use a weapon that appears to have the potential to be very harmful (lethal) on citizens so that people will not be “offended” when it does turn out badly and subject them to critism. Ummmm… apparently it would be better for our citizens to be dead… then alive and critizing them later. We have all become incredibly disposable. Not just the individual for the sake of the many… no… the many are now disposable for the sake of the powerful few.
Is anyone else as truly ashamed and frightened of the implications of such statements as I am?
LMWATBullRun:
Great! And funny. The thing people don’t think about is this—lots of normal people get caught up in riots. And lots of normal people in the middle of the riot can probably say they didn’t like what they saw from rioters or police lines. It’s brutal out there. So, if my brother was caught up in a riot trying to get home and someone zaps him! What’s a LEO to do? Let me add this and for the record: Who do you think the non lethal weapons were desgined for? That’s right—look in the mirror—they were designed for any US citizen rioting for food and water, rioting for promised vaccine, rioting cause everyone else is, or just someone caught up in something you can’t get out of. I know beyond a shadow of a doubt they aren’t going to let crowds of people infect them in these situations and they will use all the razzle dazzle to keep people back.
Is razzel dazzel PC for lethal force…?
And everyone laughed when I bought ballistic plates.
(uh, AMNmy, bought from where??)
Maybe the National Guard should be being taught how to deputize and teach citizens to photo and id a body, ascertain death, fill out a legal death certificate, and the best low-tech ways to get bodies from place of death to same-day burial, in manners that won’t further outrage the populace…
I had to look for the the reference link, because I couldn’t believe that the article was real! Here’s the link (I figured someone would want it, also). Somedays, I feel like I am living in a parallel universe (sigh)…
‘’Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs
WASHINGTON (AP) — Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday…’‘
Ebay is a wonderful thing. They came “factory direct” from the Israeli army. I believe I shelled out 250 a set. If it gets half as bad as I am imagining I figure it was money well spent and hell I can always resell them. You can buy them from several sources in America in particular I just got a us calvary catalog uscav.com and they had them for 300 a piece, you need 2.
(Rats; you activated the auditory neurons stuck with the Wierd Al Yankovic’s “What I Bought on Ebay” song.)
Microwaves and lasers and sound cannons; doubleplus Ungood…
I know this isn’t going to be popular, but a mob is not a group of responsible citizens. A mob has its own manic dynamics. A mob will destroy things and set YOUR city on fire. And once the firestorms start there is NO HOPE.
We all agree that it will be a “near thing” keeping public order in a more than mild pandemic. You must make the mob FEAR what you have done and will do to them, to make them flee and to become INDIVIDUALS again. INDIVIDUALS that can make more rational judgements as to what is in their best interest and the best interest of their community.
anonymous – at 21:53
Do you have a link for the quote? Source?
Agreed, its psych 101, group think is a powerful thing. Although as a side note thats how most business models are based. All of us can’t be as stupid as just one of us… DOH! Its still such a far out subject to discuss. I think I have come to terms with it but its still hard to grasp a violent mob of people coming down my white picket fence suburban neighborhood. Although I guess you only have to watch CNN to get a very good idea of the reality and brutality of the world.
anon58 – at 11:10, preppiechick found it, at 10:37
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/09/12/usaf.weapons.ap/index.html
I dont know why everyone gets all huffy about non lethal weapons. If it comes down to they are using things that they dont know are 100% safe the next course of action is lethal force. Whats worse, you get a ruptured ear drum, a minor burn, a temporary pain, or you get shot at.
I’ve been reading this thread through and through, and a thought has actually occurred to me---just how many of these “non-lethal giant ray guns” do you honestly believe the military has at their disposal at any one time? 3? 10?
Folks, it’s a big country, and if the infrastructure is down, there will be very little civilian communication between regions. If, by using a microwave dish on a riotous crowd, the military thinks they are going to send a message to a larger audience, they are in for a big surprise. Very few outside of the local area will get that message and it will be a failed effort.
When it comes right down to it, I don’t believe there will hundreds and thousands rioting in the streets all across the land. People are going to be scared. People are going to be hungry and thirsty, but they’re going to be scared. The best way to quell a brewing riot is to provide the necessities to survive, either through food deliveries to each home or via food drop-offs in the neighborhoods.
Yes, there will be pockets of unrest, as in any disaster. But I really don’t think they will require the use of “ray guns”.
Bronco Bill at 12:38 — I wish I could be as optimistic as you about the potential for civil unrest. During the Great East Coast Power Outage a couple years ago, my BIL, who lives a bit closer to the city center, said looting began within _minutes_ of the power outage. The building alarms no longer worked, don’t you know. Start adding hunger and thirst to the mayhem and it will get ugly, very ugly, fast. Thieves need mayhem to give cover for looting, and mayhem we will have.
LOL BB ray guns…I wonder if I looked on ebay….
Northstar – at 12:57 --- I was in the Northeast when that outage occured. We had very few problems with looting, due to the fact that the outage occurred during daylight hours.
I’m not arguing that there won’t be looting. That will happen everywhere. I’m arguing that the military won’t use their “ray guns” on the general population.
Sarge September 12 @ 16:01 - Your comment about Antarctica made me laugh, because when I was in a Edwardian Graduate Seminar, our professor told the astonished class that until World War I the United States had contingency plans to invade Canada. Well, we all know how hostile those Canadians can be, right?
until World War I the United States had contingency plans to invade Canada.
That’s ‘cuz they have better beer! LOL!!
If you want to tolerate the AF putting out a trial ballon about using somewhat-lethal weapons(whose safety they admit is unknow) for crowd control, when they are not normally allowed to conduct operations in the US, and use as cover the the term “riotous mob” (think New Orleans)when in truth the people may be desparate US citizens whose government has not been truthful to them, go ahead. But some of you should tell your represenattives that this is not OK.
BB:
Normally, police go head to head with rioters and throw them in jail. If there is a virulent virus around I believe this scenario will defintely change in cities where the death rate has started. There will be a curfew imposed, people going to work will be checked at roadblocks, and anyone out who aren’t supposed to be out will be dealt with harshly. The only way to keep everyone else obeying the curfew is to punish the ones who willfully break it. When teenage junior doesn’t come home will family members go out to look for him? TPTB will hold the curfew workers somewhere like a football stadium or auditorioum so they get the message to stay home.
I don’t know how many microwave weapons are out there, but when they’re on cruise ships I would guess hundreds.
Cruise ships DO NOT carry Microwave weapons. Period. Unless they consider throwing the microwave ovens from the galley at attackers. So…where exactly does it say MICROWAVE??
Piracy increase ‘alarming’ 16/11/2005 12:42 - (SA)
Clipped from this article here
This thread has gotten so off-topic it’s become laughable. Most of what y’all are saying should be posted in the Rumors thread, simply because none of it is fact except for what the AF Secretary said.
“Klaatu barada nikto”
LOL! Microwave beams on cruise ships was in error, cause I was in general speaking of the razzle dazzle toys. However, ear splitting noise is a misnomer. See report of LRAD which was on the cruise ships written by Cornell. http://tinyurl.com/h5whx
Sorry link for the LRAD beam didn’t go. Try this: http://tinyurl.com/fzhg5
Suggest that we go back to what the Guard should train for… IMO thats much more interesting…..
I think it would be obvious as to what they should be training for and I think thats what they are doing. General crowd control will lend itself to protecting hospitals, vaccine drives, food distrabution, etc. I think that there are already specialists within the military that would know how to run electrical and water systems. You have to ask yourself though are they going to be any more willing to show up for work than the regular people.
well, if I plan to riot I’ll have to remember to bring my cup,cold water and a tea bag; if I am to be zapped, might as well get in some fresh antioxidant to help deal with it…:P
Yeah, one more example of a Satanic mind set in high places. The enemy is within. I guess if your willing to burn people alive with napalm or give them cancer with depleated uranium your not impeded much by things like morals or fear of God. I hope people wake up soon.
I have read the news and blogs about the comments of the Secretary of the Air Force regarding testing weapons on US civilians before they are employed in combat. If he is being accurately quoted, this is without question one of the most idiotic things I have ever heard uttered by a public official, and I have heard some doozies. If this is true, he should resign immediately.
There are no non-lethal weapons. Anything that applies stimulus, force or energy to a human body sufficient to dissuade the determined owner of said body from effecting an undesireable course of action can, given the wrong circumstances, cause death. In the trade, we now call these less-lethal weapons, acknowledging that death can be the result, but not intended, providing that the weapon is properly and judiciously applied. This is as opposed to frankly lethal weapons, such as guns, that are very difficult or impossible to use in a manner that is NOT likely to cause death or serious bodily injury.
An example is the plain old police baton. Applied vigorously to the shins and elbows, a neurological signal is transmitted from the site of impact to the brain, which interprets the stimulus as “pain”. This generally has the effect of disrupting the higher thought processes controlling the course of action that the applier of the baton has determined as undesireable. The physical effect is usually limited to bruising, breaks in the skin and in extreme cases, a fracture of a bone. This is a proper application of the police baton.
On the other hand, the baton applied vigorously to the skull will result in a depressed skull fracture, with damage and hemorrhaging within the soft tissues of the intracranial space. This in turn may lead to disruption of autonomic impulses, such as respiration. This is an improper application of the police baton.
And in response to drw: To quote William Tecumseh Sherman: “War is cruelty and you cannot refine it.” - What, in your opinion, is inherently less humane about naplam and depleted uranium rounds than, say, shredding the body with small, high-velocity metal fragments (hand grenade), driving a fast, copper-coated projectile through the vital organs (rifle) or disembowling with a long dull knife (bayonet)? If the opposition is blasting away at you from a well-dug in bunker or from within an advanced armored vehicle, both of which are impervious to projectiles made of more pedestrian iron alloys, what do you propose? That we knock politely on the hatch and ask them to come out and settle the dispute thorough gentlemenly means? Flintlock pistols at ten paces, perhaps? Please, be real.
The thing that concerns me greatly is what panicked politicians may order up in a crisis. If, as Monotreme warns is possible, there is a pandemic with a mortality rate of 10%, 25%, or more, what sort of crazy measures might be applied in desparation? A Cordon Sanitaire around a city, with orders to shoot escapees? A blockade of the State of Delaware by the governors of Maryland, New Jersey and Pennsylvania? Sealing the borders of Iowa? Difficult to foresee the sorts of stupendously idiotic decisions that might be made in a really bad crisis, given the sort of mental accuity evident with our illustrious Scretary of the Air Force.
Sarge,
I’m sure we will definately see “shoot to kill” orders for looters and martial law. Additionally, homeowners will be given the go-ahead to shoot intruders/looters as well. Of course, this may prove difficult if early on (at least in cities) if disarmament orders are given and weapons of all kinds are forceably seized. Also, stored items could also be similarly seized for the perceived greater good. I honestly can’t see door to door raids for supplies, but I could easily see stores, restaurants, bars, etc. raided by authorities for their larger stocks of supplies for “appropriate redistribution”.
“Under the radar” for all of us fluwikians, that is the catch phrase. You won’t be out and about. And you won’t do anything or show anything to invite attack early in “the event”. If attack comes later in “the event”, the authorities will be too busy elsewhere (or inconsequential) to come bothering you about some bodies just inside your door.
LMWatBullRun – at 00:31 “Going back to the question of what the Guard should train for, I’d strongly recommend to TPTB that they ALL be crosstrained in power plant operation and electrical service maintenance, as well as water treatment and sewage treatment operation”
That would be a good thing. However if the present labor force isn’t sold that a pandemic is very likely, the unions and their lawyers aren’t going to let it happen. I know damn well that I wouldn’t train someone to do my job for a ‘just in case cause’ that I didn’t believe in.
Also, a powerplant is like an old run down car. Only the owner who has been running it for a long time knows its faults and what it can and cannot do. Generic training won’t go. It should to be plant specific.
or they may simply go and hide and let rain (or rein!) what may…
TreasureIslandGirl,
I’m not sure about shoot orders for simple looting of the local beer mart, but looting or hijacking attempts on medical or relief supplies will be dealth with rather harshly.
As far as self-defense is concerned, except in a couple of the more pacifistic precincts, armed resistance to forcible entry to one’s abode is generally legally permissible (in the US) if you reasonably fear for your safety or that of your family. What would have to change is an attempt to take that right away from folks, like the rather (IMO) ill-considered efforts in New Orleans.
As far as appropriation of large commercial stocks - yes, this is entirely possible. The owners would have to be compensated at some future point, but it could happen. I don’t see door-to-door confiscations happening - that would get rather costly is terms of blood and treasure (and I am certainly not leading my troops in any such effort!) I think TPTB would just be thankful that at least some people provided to feed their own mouths rather than clamoring in a line outside of city hall for the government cheese handout. For good or ill, government tends to ignore those who take care of themselves. In this case, it is a good thing.
Dear Mr. Secretary of the Air Force,
Doesn’t your family fall into the catagory ‘civilians’?
Perhaps you should give us a public demonstration of the these non-lethal weapons using your loved ones so the rest of us can see first hand that we better behave.
Sarge,
Personally, i am hoping they raise our draw bridges and keep everyone who doesn’t belong on our island off of it for the duration. We are about 4 square miles. The town inland already has civil unrest problems and we occasionally have riots and looting anyway -let alone what could happen if food supplies start running low.
Before panflu I stocked up in the event things get out of control in a hurricane (even before Katrina). After Katrina, I feel quite justified in why I stocked up for a short term event. I also feel quite justified in why I am now stockign for a longer term event.
Sarge, I agree, there are no non-lethal weapons. Any weapon can be misused with tragic consequence either by choice or accident or when the user panics in a high pressure situation. Ask the family of the young woman a couple of years ago whose only crime was to be outside of an important Red Sox game when a riot broke out and she was killed by a non-lethal weapon which struck her in the eye; she went to root for the home team, not to riot. The weapons were new and I believe they determined they were misused by the police dept!!
But if they take our guns, how do we do pistols at 10 paces :)
The Sarge says: And in response to drw: To quote William Tecumseh Sherman: “War is cruelty and you cannot refine it.” - What, in your opinion, is inherently less humane about naplam and depleted uranium rounds than, say, shredding the body with small, high-velocity metal fragments (hand grenade), driving a fast, copper-coated projectile through the vital organs (rifle) or disembowling with a long dull knife (bayonet)? If the opposition is blasting away at you from a well-dug in bunker or from within an advanced armored vehicle, both of which are impervious to projectiles made of more pedestrian iron alloys, what do you propose? That we knock politely on the hatch and ask them to come out and settle the dispute thorough gentlemenly means? Flintlock pistols at ten paces, perhaps? Please, be real.
Sarge lets take depleted uranium for instance are you aware that it aerosolizes and spreads? As a projectile sure it delivers a massive kenetic energy punch doing a great deal of distruction to the target but these ultra fine particles get into the uper atmosphere and spread across borders. Did you know that lung cancer rates are way up? Did you know that it has a halflife span of 4.5 billion years? Are you for indiscriminant killing through these shadow methods? These methods lack selectability so that innocents are routinely killed by them. Do you beleive that our troops are actually fighting for the American way of life? To me the Iraqi people are far worse off now than they were under Sadam. Unofficial estimates indicate that way over 100,000 innocent civilians have been killed as a result of our countries war activities. Would you as a grunt gain anything out of the war? Do you really beleive that a band of 19 Arabs brought down th WTC towers? Most intelligent people see throught this and realize that it was an inside job to gain support for an invasion set on the planning tables before 911. Why are so many scientist and engineers who are not affraid to speak coming out and saying that it would have been impossible for them to come down from the impact and fuel fires of the planes? Are you suggesting that people remain uneducated to the colusive facts which show the perimiters of a Satanically biased secrit government? Anyone who wants to throw there life away in support of an organization of crime lords go ahead, odds are they’re bent that way anyway. By the way a bayonet will not disembowl when used in it’s intended manor it is a skewer-a run through device usually with a few blood grooves. Bunkers, track and wheeled vehicles have been stoped for decades now with conventional weaponry. What about the Israeli tanks (considered to be among the worlds finest)? Do you think Hamas was using DU? You make yourself a pawn for power brokers and ultimately in your passing you would be no more celibrated than cannon foder by them. I don’t think you understand the big picture. It’s not God and country, it’s God. That’s the total answer.
drw at 23:18-Your political diatribe was DOA. Take it outside.
If everyone was prepped, this would all not needed.
Medical Mavin says:drw at 23:18-Your political diatribe was DOA. Take it outside.
Medical Mavin, the truth stands evidently you do not.
drw – at 23:18, Seeing as how I just marked the 5th anniversary of the deaths of several friends on 9/11, I find your post extremely offensive. Take your political crap and conspiracy elsewhere as this is not the appropriate forum for that.
Close your eyes banshee, it appears that is what your taking in. If you find facts disheartening I wonder what your commitment to truth really is. I generally find little dictators to be offensive myself so lets agree that we are at odds over what is appropriate. You do their memories no service by a fearful withdrawal from evidence.
Back to the National Guard thread topic
- what happened to educating and preparing the populace first, so there won’t be so much unrest to control?
Banshee and MM:
It appears we are dealing with troll-like behavior. Let us not encourage it further by entertaining or responding to such posts. The mods will, I’m confident, deal with it approriately.
Good question crfullmoon…..One which I of course do not have the answer to.My puter was down for several days and then several more days recently and I heard not one blip or peep about panflu from any news source.You once(or several times) mentioned how after a panflu tptb would say they had no idea how bad things would be and I am convinced you are very right.What can we do when our leaders have their head in the sand.
We can say now, They’ve known how bad it may be;
http://www.who.int/csr/disease/influenza/pandemic10things/en/
“14 October 2005: WHO: Ten things you need to know about pandemic influenza”
…3. The world may be on the brink of another pandemic.
4. All countries will be affected
5. Widespread illness will occur.
6. Medical supplies will be inadequate.
7. Large numbers of deaths will occur.
8. Economic and social disruption will be great.”…
and are choosing not to tell the public to prepare…
But, it is tiresome to live in “interesting times”. Just keep trying; that’s all we can do.
Good luck to the Guard and their families, and all the rest of us; we’ll need it.
crfullmoon:
Yours is an excellent point. Fear and panic are best controlled through the following mechanisms (IMHO):
knowledge and preparation - understanding the threat and taking tangible measures to reduce the risk and mitigate the impact. This is the focus of this wiki - and its good stuff
mental and physical rehearsal - Visualize yourself in the crisis. What will you do, how will you do it, when will you do it? By mentally walking through the steps, you acclimatize yourself and reduce shock, suprise and indecision. Actually practice your pandemic actions. Try ‘sheltering’ by shutting yourself inside for a few days. Going stir-crazy? What can you add to your preps to keep yourself (and maybe more importantly, those around you) entertained and mentally engaged? Cook some meals from prep supplies. Anything lacking that might make them more palatable? Try operating for a couple of days on your alternate sources of energy.
My problem with TPTB is, as Monotreme says, that they are not telling the ugly truth about how bad the potential is. I do not believe that this is indicative of bad intent. Maybe its because they have convinced themselves that the pandemic can be successfully managed. I’m not so sanguine. I see no empirical basis for the rather low (again IMO) estmates of morbidity and mortality that are forming the foundation for current public information efforts. If the pandemic emerges, and is much worse than the public have been led to expect, then the differential in expectations and level of preparedness is likely to be a severe shock. Kind of like a hurricane forecast for a minimal category 1 storm, and when the storm comes ashore, it’s a raging category 5.
…”I see no empirical basis for the rather low (again IMO) estmates of morbidity and mortality that are forming the foundation for current public information efforts”…
Exactly! and we know Hurricanes don’t miss or stay Cat. 1 just because the officials know everything will fall apart if it’s a Cat. 5 and they decided it was too difficult to tell the public to change priorities to include the unpalatable possibility…
There is so much undeveloped territory between, “Nothing will happen” and, “If it’s bad, there’s nothing we can do; it won’t matter”.
We’ve had at least eleven months; look how they’ve been spent so far - don’t gamble lives on eleven more months of hinting to the public in roundabout, coded ways: “All-hazards approach”, “Prepare for any Emergency” -too much of the public has no idea what a 1918-or-worse pandemic entails, and it would be in the National Guards’ own interest that the public had been brought up to speed before pandemic breaks out; less unpreparedness, less unrest, better local contingency planning actually worked out…
The above link will claify many of my veiws as to what has gone on. I agree with the sarge that this is getting silly and I don’t enjoy debasing others over their beliefs. With that said I hope you’ll visit the above site for further enlightenment. I think for most of you who can take the trip it will be an eye opener.
I watched a bit of the video you linked to and then deleted the link. I saw enough to know that it has absolutely nothing to do with pandemic flu. Be advised that I’ve done the same with people whose politics are the polar opposite of yours. The subject you’ve attempted to raise has no place on this forum. There are lots of other boards where you can pursue that discussion. - pogge
drw – at 09:39 --- As MM said, “your political diatribe was DOA”. Take it to some other board. This is not the place to preach either for or against the use of particular munitions. This board is about preparing for a pandemic, not about the ill effects of depleted uranium or how you personally feel about politicians.
drw:
Please see the Forum Rules, particularly rule number 2 regarding political arguments. I’m glad you don’t enjoy “debasing” others over their beliefs because it’s not going to continue.
Closed to maintain Forum speed.