I was in a homewares/gift shop yesterday - some lady was followed around by a 3/4 year old child who coughed continuously - nasty raspy cough, sounded like croup or bronchitis - poor child looked ill - pale, cranky and tired! I felt VERY sorry for the child, and hoped that the mother had some extremely pressing reason to take him out shopping when he was obviously ill. However, thinking of the easy transmissibility of virus - I decided I couldnt bring myself to touch anything on the lower shelves (i.e. in his ‘cough range’) in the store - so I had to leave without buying what I had gone there for!! And that is just the sick child I happened to see, no doubt this is a frequent occurrence - arrggghhh!! Makes me want to stay home and NEVER go out!! I guess I have become pathologically paranoid!!??
One of my students has had a cough like that for a couple of weeks now. Today it sounded the worst, and by the end of the day, I had 4 other students hacking in unison with her. <sigh>
I fill in on a handicap bus and/or preschool bus and it is NOT unusal for children to be sent to school on the bus ILL. I know during a normal flu season or colds, that the bus aids like me and or the bus driver ends up getting sick from the flu and colds also. A normal thing for all schools I think.
I took one of my cats to the vets this morning and ran into a similar circumstance. If a child is too sick to be in school he sure the heck is too ill to be in a public waiting room, coughing and sneezing in all directions without covering his mouth or nose. In the past I definitely wouldn’t have noticed but today I was fully aware of how great an area the child was covering. Now I’m waiting to see if I come down with his nasty cold.
Common practice, isn’t it?
We are too busy to care for our sick children. If the daycare center won’t take them, the poor tykes are dragged from point-to-point on Mom or Dad’s errands never having an opportunity to recover properly.
What piece of the puzzle is missing here?
NS1: What piece of the puzzle is missing here?
Time to live properly, perhaps?
Folks addicted to open space talk about “the law of two feet”: go where you will. They apply this to “go to those threads in the forum that most interest you, either to learn or to contribute”. (Yes, we do have “open space” in this forum.)
We don’t have much freedom. And freedom would come from … (unintentionally left blank)
We need practical ideas on this. A list of suggestions so that people will be able to pick their own.
http://www.fluwikie.com/pmwiki.php?n=Consequences.Coping
http://www.fluwikie.com/pmwiki.php?n=Main.WhatToDoIfSchoolsClose42daa357
Some ideas will need more preparation than others.
Lugon-
Or more precisely, the responsibility to take the time to live properly.
NS1, right on.
And then, after we’ve made up our minds, the time and other resources to do it. Including family agreement and cooperation around it. Network effects all over the place. Yay!
We need to give ourselves options. Some will be workable.
Initial situation: Sue (works outside the home), John (same), Johnny (schooled) and Susie (schooled too).
Options (look to see if at least one is workable, or maybe a sequence of them if it’s several days):
There could (and should) be many sub-options and creative ideas around this.
I do my best to keep my kids home when they are sick, especially if they may be contagious. And I’m lucky that dh works at home sometimes so I can leave someone sick here. But sometimes you do have to go do something. It has to be pretty important though. Many parents either don’t care, or really have no choice. Schools are always loaded with sick kids because working parents have no place to take them. Or, the parents are tired of them and figure if they load them with some Motrin that will tie them over to get them through the day. There was a time this winter when everyone had something - literally for three weeks straight I had someone home. It sucked! Made me start realizing how tough SIP will be!
Lugon - without systems and programs in place there are few options for many with sick kids. Eg. we have NO family near us to fill in. And I wouldn’t ask one of my friends who also has kids to watch my sick kid because then the parent could get sick and get their kids sick. It’s going to be a huge problem if TSHTF.
One critical piece is for employers to be more leniant with workers who have to stay home with a sick child. Most are not very sympathetic right now and that has to change. And if they realized that the parent may come to work sick as well, infecting others, then maybe they’d think twice about giving the employee a hard time.
Stop being so judgemental about parents who have to send sick kids to school. Kids are always sick.
Typical Situation:
Mom is single/divorced parent. (“Dad” can’t be bothered.)
Kid 1 is sick one day.
Mom stays home from work with kid 1. (No kids are allowed at work. Mom’s office is a cube anyway. No shift work is possible.)
Mom loses a day of pay. (No “sick pay” in her position.)
Mom gets an automated attendence call from school reminding her how important regular school attendance is.
Kid 1 is sick day 2.
Mom stays home from work with kid 1.
Mom loses another day of pay.
Another automated phone call.
Kid 2 is sick day 3. So Mom lets both kids stay home to recuperate.
Mom loses another day of pay.
Two phone calls today begging her to send her kid to school!
Day 3 kid 1 is feeling better (but has a lingering nasty cough) so Mom sends him to school.
Day 4 is a teachers’ work day so Mom stays out with kids and loses a day with pay.
Morning day 5 kid 2 is feeling better so is sent off to school. Kid 1 might be coming down with another cold, but Mom sends him to school anyway because if she misses any more more she is not going to be able to pay the rent. Mom is feeling sick today, but can’t afford to miss work.
One critical piece is for employers to be more leniant with workers who have to stay home with a sick child. Most are not very sympathetic right now and that has to change. And if they realized that the parent may come to work sick as well, infecting others, then maybe they’d think twice about giving the employee a hard time.
We can facilitate it by saying it now, but I guess it will happen by itself. We are in a position to think “how to make it work?”.
We’re the “what next” thinkers.
Day 4 I meant “loses a day without pay” of course. Don’t know anyone besides teachers getting paid for teachers’ work days. :-)
anonymous – at 07:07: Stop being so judgemental about parents who have to send sick kids to school. Kids are always sick.
Sorry if any of us here sounds judgemental. We’re all trying to find ways forward in objectively difficult situations. Now that we have time to analyse things and look for obvious and not-so-obvious possibilities.
Thanks for pointing out the difficulties in detail. That’s one step in perhaps finding some solutions that fit at least part of the parents. (I don’t believe there will be a one-size-fits-all solution.)
If we’re talking about what is going to happen in the pre-pandemic phase when the bug in question is just a cold or the regular flu, I don’t see things being able to change. Employers can’t afford to pay people who are not at work. Parents can’t afford to go days at a time without earning money.
And I don’t see how they can afford to pay nonworking people during a pandemic either. Parents WILL stay home when TSHTF and that of course will be a disaster for them financially. I don’t really see any way around widespread collapse of the economy in that situation.
A few years ago, we had an expensive bout with the flu at my house. Everyone was wiped out for a week. No work. No pay. Expensive doctor visit/medicine (no insurance at that time). During a period when there were already several unpaid days off due to holidays. It was a financial disaster for my family.
If the pandemic starts poor people are going to have to choose between paying their rent and taking care of the children.
I is a good exercise to things about possibilities but I’m afraid parents are already racking their brains about possibilities whenever their kid turns up sick…and still they have to send someone sick to school from time to time.
dang pudgy fingers…
It is a good exercise to think about possibilities….
anonymous – at 07:07 Stop being so judgemental about parents who have to send sick kids to school. Kids are always sick. Typical Situation: Mom is single/divorced parent. (“Dad” can’t be bothered.)
anonymous – at 07:07, excellent points overall, but please tone down your bad dad rhetoric. That may be your experience, but there are plenty of divorced dads who step up and take responsibility for their children. I know, because I am married to one such man.
The truth is sick kids (and, consequently, sick parents) *are* a fact of life. I’ve been housebound for two days with first one child and now both kids home. But I’m lucky. I work from home and can keep my kids home whenever I need to do so. I feel for parents, single or couples where both work outside the home, who don’t have that same flexibility. I feel bad for the kids, too.
Lugon and others, I admire your desire to try to come up with a solution to the problem. Unfortunately, most American businesses undervalue children (except when they want to sell them something) and see parent absenteeism as a liability.
Look, its a vicious cycle … if even one sick child goes to school then the potential of a cascade effect results.
And school should be a physically safe environment … even for children with compromised immune systems. But it isn’t.
I am not saying that all parents who send their kids to school are being thoughtless … some are, admitedly, desparate … but the line in the sand has to be drawn someplace.
If two people decide to have sex and a child results … whether that is the intended result or note … then those two people are absolutely responsible for child and his/her well-being. If the two parental adults chose not to stay together then they both have financial responsibility for the child … and if either one or both parents fail in that financial responsibility then there should be absolute consequences for that.
In the case(s) of sending ill children into any public situation, it borders on the irresponsible. They say they have a “right” to do this. What about the other people having the “right” to go about in public without having to face exposure, that for some, could prove life-threatening … or at the very least could be just as financially destabilizing as for the first family?
Sorry, a soap box issue for me. One of the greatest benefits that our family has gained from homeschooling our crew is escaping the impact of the merry-go-round of constant illness that most traditionally schooled families face.
But you also find these kids in church nurseries, the grocery stores, on public transportation. As sympathetic as I am to their plight … I was one of those parents when my kids were preschool age … at some point the affected public has to say stop and enough.
Back to the the main topic of this thread … it is very possible that at some point there will be a public, perhaps enforceable, request that sick individuals remain at home. This would certainly include children.
One of the dangers of a slow brewing pandemic in my opinion is of the financial cascade effect of lost wages occuring. If the pandemic is not “severe enough” right off the bat to bring about social and governmental response in a timely manner then I suspect that the overall effect could be just as debilitating as for a high CFR pandemic.
lugon: that Open Space link sounds like anarchism to me ;-) Radical youth groups has been organising cultural and political events, clubs etc for years like this. In Norway we have a very old term for it, its called “Allmanna møte” Its from the viking age. And is translated “all man” (grown ups, and also womans) meeting). Its very effective for pulling togheter, and is very including. Many of the new phenomenas like wikis etc on the net is new types of organising in the same way, now with the advantages of the technolyghy. You may say that this fluwikie is a briliant example. I study system teory right now, and a lot of buisniss planers love this ideas, but with new terms, and not so true to the orignal philosphy:D
hope I dont start a flame debate on this now… maybe the fwikiers dont like been tagged as anarchists or radicals.. ho ho :D
I won’t comment further, Urdar-Norge. :-D
(Maybe freedom means freedom to (self-)organise, too.)
Sometimes parents don’t have a choice to stay home with their sick kids for financial reasons. But if they are able to run around shopping, to the vet, etc… then that is something that could wait until someone can stay with their child or said child recovers. A gentle reminder might be to keep little packets of tissues and/or hand gel to hand to the parents of sneezing/coughing children when encountering them in stores etc…
General non-toxic, disinfecting sprays could be carried by the parent to maintain surface integrity where the child has had interplay.
I will be mixing varying combinations of these and several other oils for:
Take a 2–4 ounce (60–120ml) spray bottle, add 5–10 drops each of a combination of two or three of the above oils and then fill with water leaving a centimeter of air space at the top. Shake before spraying. OK to use on surfaces, shoes, most cloth covered or plastic furniture and even as a local air disinfectant. Do not spray into eyes directly.
I think we need to redefine what “normal” is. Victorians had “invalids” and soldiers from World War I might spend a year or more “recovering.” One of our boys had the “crud” this spring and our doctor said “he needs to rest for two weeks, maybe longer.” I was surprised — that was the very first time a doctor had given such a long time line for an illness. Turns out he was right. It really took 3 weeks for our normally healthy teen to recover from pneumonia. It was closer to five weeks before he was truly himself again.
I grew up in a house that had one bathroom, a living room (no den) and no dishwasher (well, we kids were the dishwashers!) and that was “normal” then. Now a “normal” house has two bathrooms, a den, a built in dishwasher at the very least. Ever visit a really old house? There are no closets. People had a hook (one!) for today’s clothes and a trunk or dresser (one) for everything else. 1860′s “normal”
Anyway, we don’t have a culture that expects people to rest and recuperate. Take a pill! Take two! Get back to class! Get back to work. It’d be great if all this pandemic planning makes us all rethink our expectations.
My point in starting this thread was - this was a housewares/gift type shop - i.e. not a grocery store or corner store where a parent wd go for needed supplies - all of the items in this shop are strictly discretionary purchases!! Okay, so the mom (and I have been a single parent and know the imperatives!!)is out picking up a ‘last minute’ gift for someone? - certainly she is taking her time wandering up and down the aisles, not in any hurry to choose/get out of there, and her poor little sick child is trailing after her, coughing and barking so that the entire 5,000 sq.ft. store must have heard him - I think it was a shocking lapse of judgement on the mom’s part!!! As it happens I am caring for my elderly father, who suffers from bladder cancer and has recently had ostomy surgery - he is in a ‘compromised’ physical condition and I wd hate to introduce any unnecessary bugs to his environment. I think it is extremely thoughtless and antisocial of that mother to expose others to her child’s illness for whatever reason!! Just wondered if others have similar opinions re keeping sick kids home as much as possible. Or is that out of the question these days?
NS1: A good idea in some ways, but please remember allergic reactions. Lemongrass Thyme red Patchouli Spearmint Eucalyptus Tea tree True Lavender Geranium Bourbon Juniper & German chamomile can cause severe allergic reactions in some people. Were you to spray some of those around them, they might have to go to the hospital. Eucalyptus and lavender make me wheeze.
Gharris: it is extremely thoughtless and antisocial, but the adults run around sneezing and coughing on all of us too. Can’t miss work, the game, the show, the party, the massage. Folks routinely come to appointments and half way through have a coughing jag and then tell how “sick” they’ve been and hope this will make them feel better. Coughing and breathing germs all over for the next person also. The one good thing of pandemic flu is that maybe business will finally make people go/stay home when sick. But it won’t happen till then.
I understand the difficulties of being a single parent, as do I understand problems with the lack of childcare when a child becomes ill. I am not talking about a child who gets up in the morning and tells a parent that they are not feeling well, but there are no real symptoms. What I am talking about is the parent who sends their child to school with a fever, after using a Tylenol disguise, as they are running out the door…or the parent who sends their child to school after they have already upchucked all over the kitchen floor. Those kids should be at home with a parent or caregiver that can give them the attention they deserve….not sitting at a desk in a full classroom of students. Believe it or not, I have had parents send their child to school as to not lose their 100% attendance. Such an incidence occured in my classroom not too long ago. I didn’t catch it that the child had a fever until day 2..the Tylenol blanket didn’t work that day. The virus spread to half of my students..and then down the hall to every classroom in the building. I brought it home…which kept all three members of my family home…for two days..but not after infecting another school district and two other office bldgs. A couple of years prior to this, the same parents sent an older sibling to school after throwing up half the night. She didn’t make it to the trashcan in the room….a chain reaction ensued. NOT a good day. All for that 100% attendance award at the end of the year. Hmmmm…
As Kathy in FL stated @ 13:31…students’ rights include a safe learning environment.
anonymous – at 22:52
Do any of the industrial disinfectants also make you wheeze? Perhaps the artificial eucalyptus scent or lavender synthetics are the cause . . . or sometimes individuals are allergic to the mold that seems to grow on improperly stored Eucalyptus plant matter?
If you are truly allergic and some are, the rotation combination that I mentioned reduces uptake of an single substance in respect to the concept of variety. On any account, the non-toxic nature of these oils cannot even be discussed in the same classification with the so-called anti-bacterial and anti-viral products on the market.
I’ve found that many who are deemed allergic to natural plant matter by allopathic medicine need to look further. Some only require a systemic cleansing of the body, especially the liver, to regain higher function.
Anon,
Have you tested the pure essential oils to determine if you have a reaction?
Coughs have many origins. Some are due to colds or flu and others many be due to allergies, asthma or cystic fibrosis. Are those contagious? One problem is that coughs are not short lived. In college used to get sick every Jan for a month. In the past my kids (and myself) have had a persistant cough that lasts a month or two. It makes no sense to isolate them (or yourself) that long.
I do understand many parents are less sensitive than most people here to the chain reaction of spreading germs. Both my kids were in daycare. We try to be disciplined about staying home when sick. I agree kids are the largest spreaders of germs. Apparently it is a biological fact that we cannot avoid (but we could minimize).
With respect to the flu, a person can be transmitting flu 1 to 8 days before they feel any symptoms. Most people start feeling sick in about 2 days. Adults pass on the virus for up to a week after you stop feeling symptoms. Children under 12 are contagious up to 21 days after symptoms stop. How many people here expect parents to stay at home over 21 days from work in order to break the chain of infection? Most employers would not allow this for seasonal flu.
What would help is flu vaccines for kids. It was nearly impossible to get a flu shot for kids between 2–9 years old. The pediatrician only does high risk groups (under 2 and those with chronic disease) as defined by the CDC and the general flu shot centers at WalMart and from the city won’t do kids under 9.
I can’t tell you how many times I was sent to school while sick by my mother because she had to work. I think that finally the school got on her about it. The policies should be that if there is as hint of sickness the child should stay home.
Some jobs are worse than others when it comes to letting people off for sickness. Lower class jobs are the worst when it comes to that.
Yes, the employers will have to rethink their policies, that’s for sure. If they survive, that is.
We have been battling coughing for 3 weeks. Now, it is fever and vomiting.
The first child to start coughing, and the 2nd child, we were told they both had allergies. And, we do have a family history of allergies. 2 different family households, 2 different doctors. It turned out it wasn’t allergies. I am the designated babysitter for my grandchildren when they get sick. (And, yes, a year ago I made a decission to no longer work in the public arena for this very reason.) When it was determined that child 2 did not have allergies, I had to go make a quick trip into the grocery store with him (no fever, just the cough) for some stuff. I was able to pick up his Rx via the drive-through.
Now, 3 different households have fever and vomiting. That’s another story. My house is the quarantine station… and “nursing care.” Other family members are doing the “getting” of needed stuff. Yesterday, we made a trip to a drive-through hamburger joint… just to get out. (The vomiting is subsiding.)
The school’s are full of this stuff. But, so is every store or restaurant or business that I’ve been at lately. Cashiers are hacking and complaining they have to work, etc. It isn’t just the kids out…
fredness@5:25 About three or so weeks ago, I heard on a national morning news show that the recommendations for this year’s flu shots were to change slightly. I didn’t write down the suggested ages, but it seems (if I remember correctly) that it included a wider youth range of ages. When I heard it, I thought that it seemed to be more inline with the ages of people infected with H5N1. They also spoke of adding more categories of workers that should be considered priority for flu vaccines.
I work in a Title I school, where we have a high population of low SES students. The health dept. providing free flu shots for all would be a great thing.
I believe if more stringent rules were enforced that, though it may take a season or two, that in the end everyone would benefit because the cascading illness effect would be broken.
Granted, it wouldn’t be a perfect fix. There are always going to be something contagious going around; however, it would make the culprits more visible and there would certainly be less “sharing” as children with suspect symptoms would not be allowed to stay in the classroom/daycare.
I understand that bacteria and virii are communicable before symptom onset … but it would certainly shrink the circle of individuals exposed if more rules were enforced.
In our church nursery, if a child has a runny nose, persistent cough, and/or fever and/or rash, etc. then the child is not accepted into the nursery. If symptoms manifest themselves while the child is in the nursery then the child is immediately removed from the other children and the parents are called to come get the child … this is in effect from bed babies up to highschoolers. I’ve had to come get our youngest out of the nursery on two occasions … slightly embarrassed the first time I admit, but everyone was so nice and says that it happens to everyone at least once. <grin>
Church nursery is actually the main culprit in our house for “shared” illnesses. At the end of VBS is when our house came down with the stomach bug that knocks us all down for so long. What a cascade that was … both figuritively and literally. <yuck>
I’ve started using that hand gel stuff and make a point of wiping our son’s hand with it before he enters he class. Two years old and he is already getting into the habit of stopping and holding his hands out for a wipe before he goes off to play. <grin> I also remind the teachers that there is a bottle of the stuff in his diaper bag and they are more than welcome to share. They were taken a little aback at first … but the somehow the message got around to the nursery administrative and now where the bottles of that stuff were set aside for the hands of the adults changing diapers and helping the little ones who are potty training, is starting to be used on and by the kids as well.
Perhaps nothing spectacular in terms of initial impact … but once you understand that we have over 1,000 kids in our children’s 5th grade and below children’s ministry, and add to that all the teachers and parents and grandparents they may affect and perhaps I did something better than initially thought.
Wow, sorry for all the mistakes in that last post … I had the said two year old in my lap at the time. <grin>
One of my granddaughter’s teachers said that this Thursday and Friday she only had half of her class there. She had 12 kids in class those days.
EnoughAlready---which state, please?
EnoughAlready---which state, please?
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