In all of the discussion about cytokine storm, I have never seen a reference to the fact that ingesting sugar may, in fact, be a strategy to help suppress the cytokine reaction. In researching something completely unrelated, I cam across the following quote:
Consuming 100g of sugars (including refined sugar) significantly reduces the ability of white blood cells to destroy foreign particles and microorganisms (e.g., bacteria, and viruses). The negative effects start within 30 minutes after ingestion, last for about 5 hours, and typically include a fifty-percent reduction of these cell’s ability to destroy foreign particles, at the peak of the inhibition (about 2 hours after ingestion).
The reason for this negative effect is probably due to the elevated insulin levels after ingestion of sugar, and the competition with Vitamin C for cell membrane transport sites. This is based upon the fact that blood sugar and Vitamin C appear to have opposite effects on white blood cell functioning, and the fact that both substances require insulin for membrane transport into body tissues.
It is therefore not surprising that some authors (Murray & Pizzorno, 1988) conclude that “… the consumption of simple sugars … impairs immune function, particularly during an infection. To aid the immune system during an infection, it is important to stay away from sugar”.
I would be very curious to hear whether our medical consultants, such as Anon_22 and others, have any feeling as to whether this is a real possibility. Anything such as sugar ingestion, wich has the possibility of improving a patients chances, even fractionally, is something we should not fail to pay attention to.
Roughly how much is 100 grams of sugar, in kitchen terms? 2 tablespoons? 1/2 a cup. I gave up my measuring scale many years ago… ;-)
About half a cup. But really, insulin needed for vitamin C? Never heard.
I make no claims of validity for what I presented, just placing it where folks more knowledgeable than my self can comment on it.
I wonder if glucose and/or fructose sugars could be considered? It might be really hard to try to swallow half a cup of granulated or powdered sugar, ‘specially if a person isn’t feeling too well!!
Any idea if there was ever any follow-up in later years to Murray & Pizzorno’s study?
However, this would be really bad for diabetics.
I just Googled Murray and Pizzorno…they are apparently writers from Bastyr University, just north of Seattle, Washington. The University claims to be “one of the world’s leading academic centers for advancing knowledge in the natural health sciences.”
Would be ironic if sugar turns out to be a possible lifesaver, after all these years of being told to get sugar out of our diets!!
So is dying from a cytokine storm
«Mmmm! Sugar! Is there ANYTHING it can’t do?»
If I read the article correctly, it states that insulin and vitamin C compete for transport sites in the cell membrane, hence slowing the triggers for an immune response.
If you live long enough, everything bad for you will turn out to be good.
Butter, wine, chocolate, coffee, and now sugar! (-:
Eccles, can you get a link for your article? Thanks!
I know my 10yo would have no problem ingesting that much sugar, healthy or not! But since H5N1 patients also have intestinal problems, which sugar would only make worse (on top of the fact that they just might no feel like consuming that much) I’m not sure how easy it would be to administer. Interesting theory though. Let us know if you find out more.
If the article is true, and sugar could be good for an ill person, and grapes contain sugar, and wine is made from grapes, then there we go. Red Wine Flu Killer. We go Full Circle!! :-)
Suggestion. All of this is easily explained in basic biochem. To start, study “cellular aerobic metabolism”,”Kreb Cycle”, “adenosine triphosphate”, “glycolysis”, “glycogenesis”, “glyconeogenesis”
Sugar could be given intravenously(sp)?
I suspect honey would also work since the gut makes no distinction!
100 g = 4/10 of a cup. .4
I sorta came in late on the Red Wine Flu Killer…..that phrase was well established when I got here. Can someone give a quick one sentence Red Wine Flu Killer Basics 101? Is it ANY red wines? Is it any wines? What is it about the wine that makes it good for counteracting the ‘storm’? Thanks!
anonymous – at 17:36,
Bronco Bill and I (White Wine Flu Killer) both favor what is known in the trade as “plonk.”
Except that there isn’t any sugar left.
C6H12O6 ====> 2(CH3CH2OH) + 2(CO2)
Sugar ====> Alcohol + Carbon dioxide gas
(Glucose) (Ethyl alcohol)
Too bad
I hate chemists. They take all the fun out… ;-)
Take 4 snickers and call me in the morning.
rcx is out of line. Sugar is C6H12O6, alcohol is CH3CH2OH, carbon dioxide gas is CO2
So maybe all we need to do is to ship the villagers in Indonesia plane loads of Snickers, Mars Bars, ‘Smores and Coca-Cola?
Since someone asked, here is a LINK to the actual page that started me thinking about this.
(Eccles, there’s got to be a better way..!)
Sounds like Firesign Theatre: “More sugar!!”
Time to stock up on several cases of chocolate bars. Be back in a second…
metabolism of refined sugars is made possible only by the rapid utilizations of various other important compounds, including magnesium. Consumption of refined sugar occurs at the expense of other critical metabolic reserves
study the biochem, it all makes complete sense
It’s simply a very complex sugar…
anonymous – at 17:56
“study the biochem, it all makes complete sense”
LOL…that’s easy for you to say..LOL
Okieman goes looking for his “Biochemistry For Dummies” book
Oh I loved the Firesign Theatre! LOL! I haven’t thought about them for many years. Thanks for the c. high, crfullmoon ! It’s been a while…
Okieman, wait… Better get the dark choc. bars with cranberries, blueberries, and almonds. I have a huge tote just filled with chocolate and cracker-jacks.
May we all survive in excellent shape! Fat maybe, but doing well. thanks Eccles for the thread (‘hope you’ve forgiven me for my dumb crack re. your altimeter!)
And the definition of plonk
Well, until they come up with a good vaccine, I’m just going to have to binge out daily on Hostess chocolate cupcakes with the white squiggle on the top. And I’m going to have to have 50 cases of them hauled in, in case supply lines go down.
BB,
I had no idea that the origin of “plonk” was ‘Strine. You learn something new everyday here.
Some of us have known for years that sugar is the secret food group that TPTB always try to keep off the food pyramid for some strange reason.
Melanie – at 18:10 --- Me either. I’d heard the word, but never placed it with anything, ‘specially anything Down Under…
anonymous – at 18:26 --- That’s why it’s only found on the bottom shelf at the grocery store.. ;-)
Sorry I didn’t know my name dropped off…….I am anonymous up above…….thanks for the wine info!!
this is way off topic. topic is cytokine storm and sugar. not booze.
anonymous – at 19:33 ---
---and some topics that present strange new ideas will go “way off topic” as you say, for a while. It’ll either go back on track, or it will just fade away. If you have some more to add to the topic, please feel free to post rather than exclaiming that the thread doesn’t suit your needs.
was I not supposed to correct and get everything back on? Sorry, I thought that was what yoiu supposed to do?
Yes you may. Sorry. Just the way you “said” it sounded….demanding. And please choose a name…
FYI Bronco Bill – at 00:38 “how did this thread get SO OFF-TOPIC? If nothing else, all of you need go back to Dude’s opening post and re-read the very last line he typed”
Ah yes. gs is back.
anonymous – at 20:17
BB already said sorry.
Please post the point you wish to make to get back on-topic.
I’ve been waiting for it …
Thank you.
If this turned out to be a truly viable way to help supress the bad cytokines, all I can say is
KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID!
Seriously, for the little ones. No one wants to eat when they have the flu, but we all have to drink. Kool-Aid is pure sugar water and kids love it. I only give it to my kiddies once in a while, because I don’t need two little tornadoes in the house! :) The sugar might upset the stomache, but if you can get a hold of Phenergan, that would keep them from vomiting. Just a thought…Niah :)
metabolism of refined sugars is made possible only by the rapid utilizations of various other important compounds, including magnesium. Consumption of refined sugar occurs at the expense of other critical metabolic reserves
Yeah. You mentioned that. It was a thought posted for more research. Get a name.
It’s a “thought” posted out of the article posted by Eccles that started this post. If you dump refined sugar into someone, especially an ill someone, or a kid, especially a very ill sick kid, you will probably kill them.
I think ya’all are forgetting the most important prep of all (to avoid the bird flu entirely) SMOKES!
anonymous – at 22:07 (the first one) --- please expound on that thought. Tell us how it would kill them, in laymen’s terms. And Eccles is one of the most knowledgeable people on this board.
anonoymous – at 22:07 (the second one) --- I gotta quit anyway. Now’s as good a time as any! ;-)
Bronco Bill – at 16:41 Link to Bastyr That’s where that came from. Your own article. did you read it?
anonymous – at 22:25 --- You crack me up. I know you don’t understand that, but still…you crack me up.
Make a point, add to the discussion, or just go away. Take yer pick. Your dissection of everything I say does not add to the conversation.
Bronco Bill. I think we should give you and anonymouse aka. pandemicflu aka gsgs aka gs …your own thread so the two of you can continue and I can chuckle for days or weeks or months on end…it will be great and we need some humour.
gs how come Pogge let you go back to anonymous from pandemicflu…it couldn’t be because HE IS AWAY…could it.
We all like you…why don’t you pick a name…I know one…how about gs!!
OK - Here’s a restatement of the basic premise of this thread for discussion:
It is claimed by some that the consumption of moderate amounts of refined sugars (i.e. sucrose or perhaps hihg fructose corn sweetner) cause a metabolic event which reduces the body’s immune response. the question under discussion is whether this might blunt a cytokine storm sufficiently to help improve the odds of a person living through that event.
If any of our mediaclly aware members would care to render their own opinions or observations on this possibility, I think we would all find it useful and enlightening.
Eccles. I’m sorry put I’ve paid good money and haven’t got as many laughs as from this pair…they should charge admission…really!!
it’s not dissecting you, it’s trying to get AROUND you. youve derailed the entire thread, one line at a time. why? if YOU don’t want to discuss the topic, why stop the rest of us? you do it regularly. you’re a moderator-shouldn’t you be above that? What do you have to prove?
comment: Except that there isn’t any sugar left. C6H12O6 ====> 2(CH3CH2OH) + 2(CO2) Sugar ====> Alcohol + Carbon dioxide gas (Glucose) (Ethyl alcohol)
Bronco Bill: I hate chemists. They take all the fun out…
comment: metabolism of refined sugars is made possible only by the rapid utilizations of various other important compounds, including magnesium. Consumption of refined sugar occurs at the expense of other critical metabolic reserves [From the article YOU posted, but I guess you didn’t mean for it to be discussed?]
Bronco Bill: There IS sugar in wine!
anonymous: this is way off topic. topic is cytokine storm and sugar. not booze.
Bronco Bill: ---and some topics that present strange new ideas will go “way off topic” as you say, for a while. It’ll either go back on track, or it will just fade away. If you have some more to add to the topic, please feel free to post rather than exclaiming that the thread doesn’t suit your needs.
anonymous: was I not supposed to correct and get everything back on? Sorry, I thought that was what yoiu supposed to do?
Bronco Bill: Yes you may…
comment: If this turned out to be a truly viable way to help supress the bad cytokines, all I can say is KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID, KOOL-AID! Seriously for the little ones. The sugar might upset the stomache, but if you can get a hold of Phenergan, that would keep them from vomiting.
comment: metabolism of refined sugars is made possible only by the rapid utilizations of various other important compounds, including magnesium. Consumption of refined sugar occurs at the expense of other critical metabolic reserves
Bronco Bill: Yeah. You mentioned that. It was a thought posted for more research. Get a name.
comment: It’s a “thought” posted out of the article posted by Eccles that started this post. If you dump refined sugar into someone, especially an ill someone, or a kid, especially a very ill sick kid, you will probably kill them.
Bronco Bill: please expound on that thought. Tell us how it would kill them, in laymen’s terms. And Eccles is one of the most knowledgeable people on this board.
anonymous: Link to Bastyr That’s where that came from. Your own article. did you read it? [literal question---doesn’t sound like anyone read it, where to start?]
Bronco Bill: You crack me up. I know you don’t understand that, but still…you crack me up. Make a point, add to the discussion, or just go away. Take yer pick. Your dissection of everything I say does not add to the conversation.
Eccles. I rest my case…
…I for one, will try to answer your thread question in a meaningful way tomorrow…at the moment I am incapacitated…………
Anonymous @ 23:24
You are right. You are brilliant. This thread was indeed off topic for a while. And now that you have been proven right, you have also become the biggest distraction. So if your aim is to return this thread to the discussion of whether sugar may be of some help in averting cytokine storm, all you need to do is to sit down, shut up, stop arguing and let the discussion return to sugar.
And so again, a restatement of the basic premise of this thread:
Does the consumption of refined sugar impose a sufficient degradation on the functioning of the immune system to provide us with a cheap, easy to acquire and readily consummable method of perhaps averting a fatality in the event of an H5N1 infection?
sorry Eccles, that your thread was derailed.
I think, and it’s only my thought, that sugar, with it’s caffeine-like effect, could very well degrade the immune system enough to avert a cykotine storm. It’s possible that the sugar would activate a reaction in the body, causing the white blood cells to “concentrate” on eliminating the sugar content, and not attacking as hardily any infection in the lungs…
Eccles, you mention refined sugar. Is it possible that raw sugar, that is, sugar cane from the field, might have the same effect?
Tom DVM --- sorry to make your ribs so sore tonight! ;-) But, gs still cracks me up!
‘’I derailed the thread? damn…I hate when I do that!’
BB- Those of us who enjoy the benefits of diabetes understand that the body really only understands a few saccharides, as most of them resolve down to dextrose anyhow. The main issue is how much dextrose vs fructose you circulate, and whether the reaction at the cellular level as described in the cited site actually occurs.
As for refined, I just stuck the word there to appease those who think thoughts like C&H (or Domino) BAD, honey GOOD
This is all too much…I can’t take it any more…honestly sugar as an immune suppressor and then you guys doing the dance of a thousand veils…it’s too much I tell you…too much…I can’t take it anymore… Sorry Eccles!!
I’m speechless. . .
and that rarely happens!
Ok, just as a purely unproven and observational note: diabetics are hugely prone to infections, both systemic and peripheral. It is a leap of knowledge on my part (never having had the benefit of undergrad biochem) that the introduction of sugar (in all its forms) plays havoc with the body’s immune response. Is it possible that in one particular situation that what is normally bad for us could possibly be good for us?
Hoping those with more knowledge can speculate . . .
Tom DVM. Shut up. ;-) You’re making me laugh so hard I can’t read this thread anymore… LOL ROTFLMAO!!!
Eccles – at 00:21 --- I don’t know much about diabetes. My dad had Diabetes I (no-insulin) and was supposed to avoid heavy intake of sugar, but it wasn’t banned from his diet. If a diabetic uses insulin, can that be used to quell the effects of 100 g of sugar after, say, 30 minutes of ingesting the sugar? Enough time to kick the immune system away from the lungs, but short enough to fight off the sugar dirivitives the body produces during “sugar shock”?
That’s pretty much all the “scientific” speculation I can come up with…
Damn it Jim. I’m a geek, not a doctor!
My Dad had a saying…’If you are getting run out of town…get in front and make it look like a parade’.
I have a saying. If the world is going to end, as long as I have enough time to get to the liquor store to buy a bottle of CANADIAN WHISKEY, then I will die a drunk and happy man.
Eccles I know you are very serious about this thread and I’m sure it has great merit…
…but all I can imagine is children, quarantined at home away from school and friends, being fed sugar as a preventative by hyper-glycemic parents also drunk on a sugar high…
…getting back to my father…I think a whole population that is hyperglycemic is the equivalent of ‘getting in front and making it look like a parade’…
…It seems to me that this is the first preventative on flu wiki with a side benefit and certainly will be more fun than the STATINS that annon 22 has been talking about.
My apologies and thanks again…I don’t know how long it has been since I laughed this much…my better half got out of bed to see what all the fuss was about…CHEERS!!
Tom DVM --- I can just picture your better half peering around the wall, watching rolling back in your chair and holding your sides! I’m sure my DW can hear me laughing a storm…and she’s 3200 miles away right now!!!
Perfessor Eccles --- you brought up a very serious point, and I apologize to you for letting it get so out of hand. To think that something as simple as sugar might have a major benefit to mankind overall is astounding…I hope we can find someone who knows sugar and complex carbohydrates, and can post here some insight into what it might mean for any avoidance of a C-Storm…
Did that sound perfessional enough?
pouring a glass of a nice Cab RWFK for the cowboy
The topic brings up a potentially dangerous thought on my part, and that is in the case of someone who uses exogenous insulin, if the sugar deactivation of the immune response is in fact true, then I was wondering whether by slightly reducing ones insulin dosage to run slightly hyperglycemic, one could reduce the potential for cytokine storm (while increasing the probabilities of really nasty and damaging diabetes complications).
Please don’t try any of this without consulting with your Physician. I didn’t tell you to do any of this, this is all conjecture
Jefiner – at 01:21 --- Thanks. I needed that.
Eccles – at 01:23 --- But by reducing the hyperglycemic levels in the blood, isn’t that reducing the amount of sugar in the blood; the opposite of what was originally posted? Or is that hypoglycemic?
No, you are increasing the hyperglycemic (what you would allegedly want), by reducing insulin intake
But would it be enough, equal to the postulated 100 g of sugar? I don’t know, and it’s late, so my non-scietnfic mind needs it’s beauty rest. C-Ya tomorrow….
G’Night all…
Eccles – at 01:23 WROTE: I didn’t tell you to do any of this, this is all conjectur.
The Judge asks: State your name to those present in this courtroom. . .
;-)
If you overload on sugar to suppress the immune system, you may be giving the viruses free rein to do whatever damage they can, so you may not die from the cytokine storm, you will die from viral overload and whatever damage they do to the internal organs. You will also be depriving your body of vitamin C which maintains the integrity of blood vessels and skin. If the virus damages the blood vessels, and you don’t have access to vitamin C to repair the damage, your blood vessels could develop weak spots and leak blood (you could bleed to death internally).
Sugar makes the body PH more acidic and viruses thrive in an acidic environment but die in an alkaline PH environment. So loading up on sugar before you come in contact with the flu could make your body more receptive to getting the flu. And with a suppressed immune system (from sugar overload) and acidic PH, your body will be a viral haven.
However, it is interesting to note that sugar is a main ingredient in IV formulas, used to maintain body hydration during illness.
You can make your own IV formula at home but it is called an ORS Formula (Oral Rehydration Formula). Here it is for those of you who aren’t familiar with this formula.
4 cups clean water 3 tablespoons SUGAR 1 level tsp salt (sea salt is best)
If patient is very weak, feed ORS Formula with an eye dropper until patient is getting at least 2 - 3 quarts daily. This may be very hard to do but well worth the effort as it can prevent death by dehydration.
Try to get the patient to drink 2 - 3 quarts of fluids daily to prevent dehydration.
If juice is available, substitute 1 cup of water with juice and cut the sweetener in half.
everyone “seriously”
THere are different parts of immune system. Original post quote says that sugar inhibits White blood cells. IF that were true, that would not necessarily overall be so great…you don’t necessarily Want to cut such a broad swath across the immune system when you are sick, prone to bacterial secondary infections. It is only one component of the immune system that overdoes it in the cytokine storm.
The mechanism that NAC and some other supplements use targets a narrower part of the immune system, the part that is overdoing it..cytokines and the pathways that lead to their overproduction/release.
we DO need an MD or PhD to comment…I can only speak in generalities…
I would hate tho someone reading thread and remember if TSHTF ‘oh I remember from fluwikie Sugar treats cytokine storm” Need answer from people who know..more than me!
hope what I say isn’t obvious to you Eccles et all…just raising question makes me guess maybe not.
I want to add a question which is related but slightly off-topic. One group of UK doctors suggested taking fairly high doses of Vitamin C (2–3 grams a day) plus zinc and Vitamin A as a prophylactic against bird flu and even higher doses to treat it. If viruses like acidic environments, would this be counter-productive? If viruses don’t like alkali, should we all be taking some baking soda? Someone with medical/nutrition knowledge could help here.
Without supporting documentation only the gullible will believe a theory. You are wasting time arguing theories without making the effort to proofs. You might as well argue philosophy or religion, things that cannot be proven. It is discussions like this that make this site look like the keystone cops. Well meaning but clumsy and ineffective.
If you go to the FluWiki Index you will see there is a Research page. Scroll down past the genome sequencing stuff and consider looking at PubMed and the sites below.
There are many ways to weaken the immune system but that may not be a prudent thing to do in the face of a traumatic infection to the system. Secondary infections may acutally be prevented be a strong immune system. I would be interested to know as much about survivors of H5N1 as patients who died.
Pages on the FluWiki where you can learn more about Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome and Cytokine Storm.
In an average person with a NORMAL blood sugar-metabolism, adding a lot of sugar to the diet would not increase the blood sugar by any signficant amount. Ant it could possibly promote dehydration and cause diarrhea by creating a hypertonic condition in the gut whereby body fluid would be directed to the hypertonic area to try to dilute it and as a result could possibly aggravate/cause diarrhea or an upset stomach. Comments anyone?
Excuse me Professor fredness. We are not arguing theories here, we are discussing them, which is a fine but very real distinction. As this is a discussion thread I fail to see why you think supporting documentation is mandatory.
Many good ideas get their start in discussions and move ahead. Others are found to be bad ideas and go into ignominy after participants bring pertinant info to the table.
Since Fredness wishes supportive documentation, I point to the following paper:
Acute hyperglycemia and the innate immune system: clinical, cellular, and molecular aspects. Crit. Care Med., Jul 2005; 1624–1633
Quote from the Conclusions cited in the paper abstract: CONCLUSIONS: Acute, short-term hyperglycemia affects all major components of innate immunity and impairs the ability of the host to combat infection, even though certain distinctive proinflammatory alterations of the immune response can be observed under these conditions.
Eccles…you must be a newbie here. You really should do more research before posting anything. ROTF!! ;-)
Where is gs when we need him.
Give him time. Should be back around 2pm Pacific Time. Again.
Tom - But what is the PROBABILITY that sugar would affect the immune system.
it’s apples and oranges. sort of. - sugar as a dietary electrolyte in the Kreb Cycle, versus the endocrine/metabolic response to increased sugar. Increased sugar = increased insulin, which competes for cell membrane transport. A “Normal” system fights for equillibrium. More sugar is met with more insulin to process it. Too much insulin requires more sugar in response. There’s some other stuff involved here too. Grossly oversimplified, the system will break loose whatever it can to respond to extra insulin and other hormones released as part of the process. Read about glycolysis. Diabetes is when sugar doesn’t match insulin for whatever reason in whatever direction. This isn’t about table sugar, this is about carbohydrate.
from the very first post: “negative effect probably due to the elevated insulin levels after ingestion of sugar, and the competition with Vitamin C for cell membrane transport sites.”
“Hypertonic” is about osmosis, transport gradients, what goes what direction across cell membranes and why. Something different and this would be about electrolytes at the cellular level. Salt and potassium, not sugar.
A hypertonic cell environment has a higher concentration of solutes than in cytoplasm. In a hypertonic environment osmosis causes water to flow out of the cell. If enough water is removed in this way, the cytoplasm will have such a small concentration of water that the cell has difficulty functioning. [In red blood cells, they shrivel up and look funky and can’t function, called ‘crenelation’].
A Hypertonic solution contains a higher concentration of electrolytes than that found in body cells. If such a solution is allowed to enter the blood stream, the osmotic pressure difference between the blood and the cells will cause water to flow out of the cells, which will then shrink. This may cause serious harm, or even be fatal.
The opposite of hypertonic is hypotonic, where the net movement of water is into the cell; the intermediate state is called isotonic, where there is no net movement of water. Hypotonic condition in mammals is ‘hyponatremia’- too much water on board, no electrolyte available for cell uptake. Dehydration is too much electrolye concentration in plasma, not enough fluid. The effect on the body is the same — inadequate tissue perfusion at the cellular level.
Eccles – at 13:18 to at Eccles – at 11:47: I think you answered your own question. We know that not treating hyperglycemia in acutely ill patients produces poorer outcomes. This is why the American College of Endocrinologists released a white paper a few years back encourging physicians to treat these patients. While an overload of sugar in a noninsulin impaired patient will not likely make them hyperglycemic, it does nothing good. The probility is that will impair the immune system, IMO. Kelly
An overload of sugar will make all people hyperglycemic. The endocrine system will accomodate and correct. Or not, if it can’t.
Well,1.You really have to define overload 2. you need to define hyperglycemia. The ADA recommends a 75 G glucose load for OGTT. If BG does not spike to over 200 mg/ dl it is consitered normal.At least a normal response. FBS should be between 60–100 mg/dl. Kelly
Could taking Metformin, which causes the liver to produce elevated insulin levels, assist in thwarting the cytokine storm or could it cause it to be worse based on the data presented in this thread?
BG won’t spike in a normal person because the system goes to equilibrium and bumps up insulin to accomodate
you really do have to define overload and hyperglycemia. hyperglycemia might be defined as the presence of pathological condition in which BG is a predetermined level. in which case, a “normal” person wouldn’t “have” the condition of hyperglycemia.
for the purposes of this conversation, it’s not about compromised people and treating patients. it’s about blood chemistry and theoretical effect on the system of deliberately increasing sugar intake to intentionally suppress immune response by creating adverse conditions at the cellular level. what can the system tolerate and is it of any benefit.
seems to me like chemo and radiation. it works exactly as its meant to. the prayer is that it doesn’t work so good that it takes the patient out.
if a normal person took metformin, they’d end up in a coma with ketoacidosis.
TreasureIslandGal – at 13:53:Metformin affects the liver in that it produces less glucose, which is stored in the liver as glycogen. The liver does not make insulin, the islet cells in the pancreas does. Metformin is used to treat diabetes, and I do not believe that I have ever seen research on it’s effect on kinine production. I doubt it would have any effect. Except to help keep plasma glucose levels lower, which would be good. Kelly
Eccles, I did not intend to bash you or the theory. I didn’t see much progress beyond speculation. I am a guy with no medical background. I do enjoy aggregating data. If I’m gonna bet my life on a theory there better be science or good logic to back it up.
The study you cite concludes with a complicating issue “proinflammatory immune response”. In a cytokine storm we already have that. I would guess that if sugar helped reduce inflammatory cytokine response it would be used for other autoimmune disorders like lupus and rheumatiod arthritis. Too much zinc can also interfere with immune response. I understand when trying the develop a strategy against H5N1 the gloves come off and all potentially helpful things should be considered.
So we start with a viral infection. The genetics of this virus contain proteins NP-1 and PB1-F2 which can be harmful if not effectively destroyed by wite blood cells, macrophages, cytokines, and T-cells. Here is more info on the immune system we should add to the main wiki somewhere Biology of the Immune System from the Merck Medical Manual.
There is an article on our Fever page that may be related to this subject. [[http://www.thorne.com/pdf/journal/6-5/fasting_during_fevers.pdf | Proposed Biomolecular
Theory of Fasting During Fevers Due to Infection]]
From the Abstract “Fevers due to infectious organisms that produce neuraminidase (sialidase) may contribute to the pathophysiology of autoimmune conditions. Neuraminidase unmasks host cellular lectins that interact with food lectins and can induce human leukocyte antigen type II (HLA II) expression. HLA II can then bind food lectins and serve as targets for antibody production. Some of these antibodies can then cross-react and attack healthy tissue, inducing disease.”
Conclusion “Eating during an episode of fever due to infection by a neuraminidase-producing organism could potentially lead to autoimmune and other chronic diseases. The oft-quoted platitude, “starve a fever,” is supported by the theory presented in this paper, although much more work is needed to determine to what extent the theory is correct. Fasting during a fever due to infectious disease or a fever of unknown origin should be standard practice in this author’s opinion until more information becomes available definitively refuting the theory presented here.”
This seems to tie in with the Cytokine Storm thread. As NS1 said in that thread June 15 2006 at 22:57… “You will not likely be able to effectively up and down-modulate your cytokinic response once the infection hits. Too complex and fluid. The body adjusts hundreds of ways when cytokinic activity is disrupted externally.
None of us really know how to safely modulate it. Get your body ready now by feeding your immune system and cell-to-cell signalling systems. In the absence of a clear post-event solution, prevent the event. Don’t wait for cytokinic dysregulation and then hope to moderate it safely.”
Metformin is also used by those with PCOS. I take it but I am not diabetic. I wasn’t sure if it could help or hurt.
I was told that the Metformin supposedly helps my liver recognize sugars in the blood better so that more insulin gets naturally produced (by the pancreas, not the liver apparently), which then helps to regulate other hormonal functions as a consequence of the increased insulin -which therefore combats many of the symptoms and causes of PCOS.
Based on that, it seems that someone who didn’t normally need to “over-recognize” blood sugars could use the metformin, only at lower dosage for one or two pills over a day to help combat the cytokine storm by increasing the insulin levels in the blood stream.
-and much like the example of chemo… just give the metformin in a high enough dose to increase the insulin temporarily to help thwart the storm, but not so high or long that other complications develop.
I don’t know, but it seems that it could be a possible short term/emergency treatment to just stop the storm from taking over during that critical time period.
PCOS tx with metormin = decrease in testosterone production
great idea for research. too scary to do any of this casually. really, it is. Bad Juju. regardless, how would you know that you’d accomplished what you wanted? you can’t do blood samples on yourself.
slamming sugar is also known as “carbo-loading”. Athletes do it before long intense periods of exertion that have a huge and unusual demand for energy.
For those with children. DO NOT experiment with healthy or sick children. DO NOTattempt to manipulate endocrine system, metabolic activity, artificially induce hypertonic/hypotonic conditions, etc.
fluids, chicken soup, chicken soup, hug and love, sleep, electrolyte replacement, more hug and love, fluids, more sleep. pharmaceutical comfort measure for fever reduction and pain, as needed and as reasonable. CONSULT A PRIMARY CARE PROVIDER
I can’t wait to see all the guys on Metformin.
gee…it got suddenly quiet…
Hi everyone. I think I have succeeded in composing myself after last night’s slight detour and will attempt to give an honest answer to an honest question.
First of all, we must put the immune system in perspective with other body systems…
…If we are driving around in a Volkswagen Bug (1960′s version = our body) then in the trunk of this Volkswagen Bug is an F-15 fighter…this is our immmune system.
We live in a pathogenic soup from the time we are borne until the time we die.
The immune system that protects us must do so at many different levels controlling a multitude of bugs at the same time while allowing us to continue with our lives without knowing that it is working.
It also by the way is an energy consuming system.
Like all highly sophisticated systems, it is extremely sensitive…there are redundancies built in…back up systems for the back up of the other back up systems.
The immune system always thinks it is working for our benefit and is extremely sensitive which means that sometimes it malfunctions and ends up working against us rather than for us…and there are a long list of auto-immune diseases that demonstrate the harm done when our F-15 malfunctions.
The cytokine storm is another example of a sensitive system overreacting to a threat…winning the battle against the virus but losing the war…we die as a result of the immune response.
Eccles question breaks into two questions. 1) can the immune system be suppressed and 2) can the immune system be suppressed to avoid the cytokine storm and would it be beneficial to do so it it was indeed possible.
And after the Flu Killer, a BroncoBuster: A 1986 ‘Goats Do Roam’, 1/2 cup sugar, 850 mg of testosterone reducer. Yay!
Question 1) Yes, the immune system can be suppressed by anti-rejection drugs for transplants, chemotherapeutic agents that kill actively dividing immune system cells and steroid drugs that are used to moderate the immune system in the case of auto-immune disease.
I don’t know a whole lot about the pharmacology of anti-rejection drugs and how they work…maybe a pharmacologist on flu wiki could give us an explanation.
Chemotherapeutic agents are cellular poisons.
Immune system dysfunction during longterm steroid treatment is unfortunately one side-effect of a singularly unique and useful drug.
There are a number of environmental agents that interfere with immune function, reproductive function and neural function…including dioxins, PCB’s, mercury, lead etc. etc. etc.
In repect to Eccles question, I assume the question relating to sugar and immune function is related to immune problems observed in diabetics. I guess the way I would look at this question, is that sugar consumption is very high in the Western world and it appears offhand that no immunosuppression has resulted. Longterm hyperglycemia may play a role or there may be another connection to diabetes that is not sugar level related. A short-term controlled effect is extremely unlikely.
Can the immune system be suppressed to avoid the cytokine storm and would it be beneficial to do so if possible?
Unfortunately, the answer at this point in our knowledge of the immune system and the cytokine storm is no. While hyperglycemia may provide a transitory miniscule immune system effect, it would be too small to have an effect against the overwhelming response of the cytokine storm. An analogy might be…could we use hypergycemia to avoid acute anaphylaxis leading to death from bee stings, peanut butter etc.
Question 2. Would we want to if possible? No, I don’t think so given our rudimentary understanding…the immune system allows us to exist on the earth and we play with it at our peril as longterm steroid use can attest.
The comforting conclusion to this post is that, according to the experts which I often respectfully disagree with, only a certain porportion of the population will get a pandemic flu and only a small porportion of the population will experience a cytokine storm…
…so you are unlikely to get this flu and if you do get it, it is very unlikely that you would die or experience a cytokine storm…
…so even without specific prophylaxis, it is and will be a highly unlikely event….I add the caveat ‘hopefully’.
I hope this helps a little bit in our understanding.
Your comments and critiques are welcome!!
Thanks Tom. You’ve certainly stated things in as clear a form as I could have asked for. As I said at the outset, the thread was my way of asking for someone much more knowledgeable than myself to tell me why the simplistic conclusion that the stuff I was reading was pushing me towards was wrong. You have fulfilled this function admirably.
TomDVM here’s my critique for what it’s worth. You did good!
I for one don’t plan on doing anything to inhibit my immune system. What is on the WHO website about the immunosuppressed? They shed virus much longer than children-for weeks. Thailand seems to have a high CFR and a very high incidence of HIV. I don’t want to shout gloom and doom but when those two high risk groups meet H5N1 I think the cytokine storm will be more likely especialy in the chronic disease groups. While I don’t believe in SIP for everyone, these two groups should practice isolation.
Tom DVM For a different take that may be helpful. Go to the ABBOTT DIAGNOSTICS web site and look up the product Oxepa The product is for tube feeding, but the thought behind it is intriguing, and safer than suppressing your immune system. Such as it is, I would like to keep mine intact.
It is interesting to note, though, on this sweet topic, that honey keeps well and never spoils. Honey is the ultimate preservative. Wicked king Herod kept his murdered wife’s (Mariamme) body perfectly preserved in a tub of the stuff for 7 years. And as late as 1943, the bodies of deceased Buddhist monks in Burma were still being preserved with honey until suitable funeral arrangements could be made months or even years later for them!
Columbian Indians residing in the northwestern part of South America often drink a lot of bees’ honey to stop diarrhea and cure dysentery with. Pediatricians at King Edward V111 Hospital in Durban, South Africa gave 169 infants and children afflicted with infantile gastroenteritis a strong liquid solution of honey to drink each day. This helped to reduce the incidence and recovery time from bacterial diarrhea.
In 8 oz. of water, 4 large tbsp. of honey should be thoroughly stirred in before drinking the same. It does not work, however, on nonbacterial diarrhea. Also those with diabetes should be careful about ingesting so much honey at one time.
Honey can be a wonderful sore throat remedy. Warm tea and honey is a wonderful natural remedy for a sore throat. You can make your own throat syrup too. Peel some garlic cloves and put them in a jar. Add hoeny a little at a time over a couple of days until the jar is full. Set in a sunlit window until the grlic has turned somewhat opaque and all the garlic flavor has been transferred to the honey. This is a great remedy for relieving hoarseness, laryngitis or coughing. Take 1 tsp every 3 hours as necessary. For a child, dilute each spoonful with a tiny bit of water.
Either raw honey or the above garlic honey syrup can be applied to herpes lesions, bedsores and shingles directly for a miraculous healing within a very short time. Mix 80% honey with 20% Vaseline or Crisco shorteng to heal chronic leg ulcers, small burns and lupus erythematosus-like problems. Warm the mixture and stir it constantly to make it easier to apply. Apply the ointment in a thick layer to afflicted areas and cover by sterilized gauze and bandages. If the infected sores show much discharge of pus, change daily. When it is fairly clean and dry, change every 2 to 3 days instead.
Ancient Egyptian physicians used a combination of honey and grease to treat major injuries suffered in work or battle. Their ususal mixture was 1/3 honey, 2/3 fat or butter. It makes a nice paste of smooth consistency. And because no bacteria of any kind can thrive in honey for very long, it makes a dandy antibiotic as well. A little garlic juice added to this honey/fat combination would seem to be the perfect cure for most major wounds, when other medical treatment isn’t readily available.
So…it might be worth putting some buckets of honey away in that pandemic cupboard, since it has many interesting applications and keeps forever.
Bronco Bill If the article is true, and sugar could be good for an ill person, and grapes contain sugar, and wine is made from grapes, then there we go. Red Wine Flu Killer. We go Full Circle!! :-) I’ll drink to that!!
Pedialyte? How would that figure in for children?
Argyll.