From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Perfect Knowlege

20 October 2006

Blue – at 22:28
 If I had Perfect Knowledge to answer one question only(ie the most important in your mind)it would be to tell us which mask/respirator is best suited to the occasion, should my boss drag me to my job, or I need to venture outside amongst others in a pandemic environment.

 What would others wish for the perfect/definitive answer to?
PBQ – at 22:35

When will the pandemic start?

Tom DVM – at 22:35

Blue. I spent quite a bit of time in a mask…the answer to your question is a 3M mask with hepa filters.

What I would like an answer for…or alternatively for those in authority to even, maybe, for once, consider is where the hell are we going to get the antibiotics and other supportive oral therapies for hundreds and tens of hundreds of millions of children around the world.

In North America, I would like to ask the question specifically to the Canadian Medical Assn. and the American Medical Assoc.

Are we going to do the loaves and fishes thingy? Are we going to talk that other 70% of pharmaceutical plant workers who can still stand up for the moment in a pandemic to attempt to produce antibiotics 24 hrs a day? Where are we going to get the raw materials for this instant expansion requirement? Are we going to fake it and give these children placelbos?

Maybe it is time to start writing prescriptions so the antibiotics could be stockpiled for your patients…in not, you have an obligation…what is your solution to this obvious problem?

heddiecalifornia – at 22:37

What’s the fastest, easiest, cheapest, cleanest way to decontaminate clothing, surroundings, and possessions? UV light, sunlight, alcohol spray, heat?

Tom DVM – at 22:37

Thanks Blue. I feel better now!!

Dr Dave – at 22:38

Blue, you and I have discussed this before, but even a North 7700 N100 half mask only offers a NIOSH (USA) protection factor of 10. On the other hand a self-contained breathing apparatus that does not rely upon filtration offers a protection factor of over 100.

My wish would be to know at what point I should bring my son home from college.

DennisCat 22:39

Blue – at 22:28 your question

other than the future stock market numbers,…. When should I SIP and for how long will I need to SIP

Tom DVM – at 22:44

heddiecalifornia. I am not an expert on this but my wife probably is. Influenza viruses are quite labile and sensitive to environmental conditions. As far as the clothes go, washing would kill the virus.

Overcoats might be a bit of a problem. I guess I would try to wear something that could be washed…cloth overcoat.

Don’t expect to where surgical-latex gloves very often. They make your hands very sensitive to cold and are uncomfortable for long periods of time…you also run the risk of latex allergy which is an allergy you don’t want to develop. A good pair of dress leather gloves would work or cloth gloves would work as well.

The virus will be susceptible to pretty much any soap but I used to use an iodine based soap in my veterinary practice. If you can find one, just add extra sunlight soap so that the iodine doesn’t mark your hands up…or you can carry one of those bottles that we see in hospitals.

For other things and alcohol wipe would work very well.

The biggest problem is not that the virus is sensitive, it is that the stuff we use doesn’t get to all the ‘nooks and crannies’.

no name – at 22:49

The winning lottery numbers…then I could REALLY prep…AND have a great time before “it” happened!!!

Blue – at 22:53
 Dr. Dave:
 I suppose I want the self contained breathing apparatus that does not rely upon filtration, then!!

 But, what does a 3M mask with HEPA filters offer as a protection factor? Tom DVM seems sure that this will work. The question is, “will it work?” Does the answer come in a few forms.

 We’re talking about perfect knowledge…and I’m wishing. 

 Oh,Tom DVM..I aint gotta solution to your problem man-sorry!

 It’s just a thread to ask THE PERTINENT questions. Answers are a blessing. Thank you both.
heddiecalifornia – at 22:53

Tom DVM —

Thanks, Tom. I’ve been looking today for specifics on the H5N1 virus, and the only things I have found are general Avian virus decontamination info. No studies yet on just the H5N1 and how resistent it may be.

Decontamination for Avian virus in general for people working with poultry — soap and water, clean fresh clothes every day (or every entry to a new poultry facility) washed with regular detergent every day, wash off non-porous rubber boots well, and shower after leaving the facility. It really sounds WAY too simple.

What if just ultraviolet light could solve all our H5N1 problems? Nobody seems to know for sure!

gardner – at 22:54

Where is the bow saw that has been missing for the past two months? (I’ve looked everywhere!)

I have too many questions (how do we stop global warming, how can we achieve peace on earth, did my dentist screw up just this once or is he simply a bad dentist, etc.). I don’t know if I’d be able to handle the burden of hidden knowledge if it were possible. Could you do anything with it? What would you really ask? If you found out how to achieve peace on earth, how could you convince everyone you weren’t just a lunatic? (I’m thinking of the myth of Cassandra here.)

I’m doing what I can. That’s enough for me. Or maybe it’s just late and the BBRWFK has gone to my head and I should get to bed. Though I do like imagining having perfect knowledge of things—maybe I’ll have nice problem-solving dreams tonight. G’night all. (or G’day all, depending on where you are on this world of ours.)

Tom DVM – at 23:08

Blue. There is no perfect solution because the limiting factor is not the mask but fit and comfort. I have tried many masks. I have worn a 3M mask for twelve hours at a time and forgotten that I have it on. I have driven vehicles etc. with this mask on and it doesn’t impair movement in any way…will it protect you from a virus in a 1 micron aerosol, nope…but neither will a mask you can’t breathe through or a mask that makes your face itch…this mask is a cheap, reasonably effective alternative, and I wouldn’t hesitate to use it in a hospital setting…if I find myself treating the only animal in the world I am not liscensed to treat. /:0)

heddie. This virus is very sensitive to all disenfectants and soaps …it is that easy. Don’t worry about UV light, you won’t need it…I promise. Concentrate on washing and disenfecting technique instead.

21 October 2006

anonymous – at 00:12

The one question I would like the answer to is “how do I survive all a might pandemic entails”.

Blue – at 00:51
 Tom DVM: Are you saying that there is no mask/respirator that will save the life of a HCW that has to deal with an infectious Bird Flu patient?..

 …that it simply comes down to luck and keeping some distance as much as possible as often as possible?

 (You know that’s why I set this thread up of course!!)
KimTat 01:19

anonymous – at 00:12

That was going to be my question. I just want to keep my children safe.

Blue – at 08:22

http://www.wpro.who.int/NR/rdonlyres/EA6D9DF3-688D-4316-91DF-5553E7B1DBCD/0/InfectionControlAIinhumansWHOInterimGuidelinesfor.pdf

 Food for thought…just trying to find out what the health care workers will be wearing.

 It says that N95 is appropriate?! There is also another rating in there that others may find interesting to read.
Tom DVM – at 09:06

Blue. Good Question. Regarding Healthcare workers. I believe the healthcare system in North America will collapse in the first two weeks of a pandemic, therefore, most healthcare workers will be at no more risk then the general public.

Secondly, I think current evidence indicates that although with SARS the infectivity and shedding of virus reached a maximum when the patient was in hospital, putting healthcare workers at far greater risk…a pandemic influenza, like in 1918, reached its maximum infectivity before the patient enters hospital and relatively, healthcare workers will be at lesser risk.

The point I was trying to make is that a piece of technology and specifically a respiratory mask, is only as good as the person using it. Many masks that I have worn are so uncomfortable that they become impossible to use and get ripped off. The mask I settled on is comfortable and reasonably effective, and is a nice compromise between comfort and effectiveness. If you are dressed like a spaceman, you won’t be on the front lines very long at a time or before you collapse due to the technology rather than the bug.

Tom DVM – at 09:08

Blue. If an N95 mask is comfortable, that is the mask I would be wearing. If there is a shortage of N 95 masks, however, I would have no problem and would feel safe wearing my standby, the 3M mask with hepa filters.

Dr Dave – at 09:09

Blue,

From what I have read, HEPA and N100 are the same filtration standard, except that the HEPA filtration standard is not just for respirators. A major difference in respirator protection will be the fit of the mask and habits of the user. Tom DVM did not say whether he wore a half-mask or a disposable.

And don’t forget to protect your eyes. They are living tissue.

Tom DVM – at 09:12

Dr. Dave Good point about the eyes…The mask I used is a half-mask and not a disposable. I could use the mask eight hours a day for a week before having to change filters…filters are six dollars Canadian so the total cost is reasonable…with all of the other masks, they were too restrictive to breath through. I have no idea why these filters work so well but they do…you don’t even feel like you are breathing through filters.

Dr Dave – at 09:24

Tom DVP,

I use the N100 filters for my North 7700 half masks. The filters do not necessarily have to be discarded. If the only hazard you have encountered is biological, and not chemical, you could reuse them after a quarantine or exposure in a microwave oven.

There is a wish for you, Blue. An infinitley reuseable N100 respirator filter.

Tom DVM – at 09:30

Dr. Dave. Thanks. I will probably end up using a cotton mask in a pandemic because the other masks and filters probably won’t be avaliable.

Can you use your North Mask 7700 and N100 filters for hours at a time comfortably?

One thing I did learn to do was to wipe the mask on the inside with vinegar at least once a day…it cleans the mask and prevents skin infections from abrasion. You gotta love that vinegar!!

Dr Dave – at 09:42

Tom DVM,

No, although it depends highly on my level of exertion, rate of respiration, amount of persiration inside the mask, et cetera. For long-term wear, I much prefer the lightweight model #8233 N100 disposable, by 3M.

Tom DVM – at 09:51

Dr. Dave. I agree…I am claustrophobic and ran into the same trouble…my job involved some exertion…the 3M filters are not attractive to look at but you can exert yourself and feel no restriction from trying to breathe.

You and I are experienced mask users…for those who wear these masks for the first time…I would bet they will get ripped off within an hour…they had better practise with them first.

Try the vinegar to wipe the inside of the mask, once or twice a day. You will be amazed how much nicer it makes things.

Thanks for all of the advice.

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 10:27

Only ‘simple’ questions….who (which ones of us)? what(flu, pneumonia, crime)? when(this year, next month)? where(my city)? and how long(to SIP, to stock up)?

Blue – at 10:34
 Simple, fine- but only one. HaHa.

 I was just trying to figure out THE question on the tip of everybody’s toungue.
Jane – at 10:44

How basic to I have to get, in my preps? 19th century homestead (on a 60 by 100 foot lot)? If society is out of commission for long, we’ll be eating tree bark and leaves.

diana – at 10:57

When the time comes we will all know, until then there is joy in the chase for knowledge, at least I enjoy it even if others may feel dread,but I am not a worrier. Something will happen to all of us eventually. Just learned that two neighbors died, somewhat older than myself. One lived on the edge as long as I knew him. He was the careless one. He defied all the rules that would mitigate his condition. His life may have been shortened but he enjoyed it.The other was as careful and measured and calculating (not in a bad way),never wasted a dime., but each followed his own way. Neither was an easy person. They reached the end of their time., one very careless, the other very careful. I think we are going to see some astonishing events in the next 10 years. The Avian flu is one of the bogies.Don’t concentrate on this one and ignore the best years of your lives.

MAV in Colorado – at 15:18

Dr Dave – at 09:24 “The filters do not necessarily have to be discarded. If the only hazard you have encountered is biological, and not chemical, you could reuse them after a quarantine or exposure in a microwave oven.”

Dr. Dave- where did you get this reuse info? thanks

InKyat 15:34

Jane - There are people who actually do homestead on an urban lot. See http://pathtofreedom.com/. You can raise a lot of food in a few raised beds - not enough to live off of, but certainly enough to supplement long-term preps such as grain and beans.

Bronco Bill – at 16:09

no name – at 22:49 --- The winning lottery numbers…then I could REALLY prep…AND have a great time before “it” happened!!!

I saw a t-shirt once that expressed my feelings perfectly regarding a lottery winning:

“Dear Lord. Let me win the lottery just once, so I can prove to you that I’m not greedy!’”

29 October 2006

Blue – at 02:12
 OK_ I am going to ask another question in regards to having perfect knowledge of one question only(THE question that you find most important) because, frankly, it would be playing with fire to break SIP. (still handy knowledge tho if you were dragged to work or conscripted for emergency services or were indeed a HCW.)

 Q: “When will schools be shut after the first confirmation of H2H?”

 (this thread works good,eh!) 

 *I supsect the answer will entail defining H2H*
Blue – at 02:14

…don’t tell me that TPTB are going to wait and see if it can travel overses first.

 (They will, won’t they!?!)
NoFluingAroundat 04:00

I would want to know, when to start Antibiotics & Prednisolone, in the event my children get sick. I know to start Tamiflu at the onset of symptoms, however, should I assume they have Pneumonia and start antibiotics? Also dosage, I hear Tamiflu dosage is doubled for AI.

crfullmoon – at 04:19

“don’t tell me that TPTB are going to wait and see if it can travel overses first. (They will, won’t they!?!) “

Blue, I see your knowledge is becoming closer to perfect, already!

;-)

Blue – at 05:47

;-{

 As for Tamiflu- I was wondering if the start of symptoms would be too late!?
Blue – at 05:50
 If they wait to see if it can travel overseas, aren’t we implying in the argument that they won’t be closing borders as soon as it is announced “H2H”…once we’ve figured out what the definition/indication of “H2H” is/will be!!?!

 ~;-{’////
crfullmoon – at 06:05

(You give them credit for even being able to notice a pandemic strain before it has got overseas!)

Closing borders will strand people and cause outrage. Closing borders immediately to all trade will put the JIT systems directly into cascade failures, right?

(Offers everyone a virtual cheery fireplace to put your feet up in front of, and a nice soothing beverage.) (Wish that made us feel better…)

Blue – at 06:13
 (“Riders on the Storm” starts playing in the background…)
crfullmoon – at 06:42

(Not the effect I had in mind!)

(But, since Halloween is so near, how about listening to a little O Fortuna!

;-)

Blue – at 22:46

http://www.airborneinfection.blogspot.com/

 half way down is an article on “The Myth of Hepa Filtration”: remember that Tom DVM did remind us above that HEPA is not perfect. Why would we expect any other mask/respirator to be perfect?

 It is a reminder to SIP if at all possible, and to plan towards it by $aving now. $AVE FOR BILLS AND GET AHEAD ON MORTGAGE OR WHATEVER-SO YOU DON’T HAVE TO WORK IF TSHTF!!

 Relying on masks/respirators in a biologically hazardous environment would  be Hazardous to your Health.

 Proper Preparation Prevents Poor Performance. Remember the 5P’s…(or D.B.A.F.)

 Be like Mr. T and “Don’t be a fool!”. (Dr. Phil, Dr. Phil, What’s wrong with me Dr. Phil?-“You’re a fool!..thats what’s wrong with you.” CLASSIC)
DennisCat 23:10

Blue – at 22:46 ….Relying on masks

One thing I learned from DOE nuke work is that it is best not to rely on shields, filter and such. It is best to keep your distance - 1/r^2 works even when there are holes in “things”. If you think about it, there is a reason that HCW often are the first to get hit- they cannot distance themselves. Better not to put yourself where you have to rely on a filter and a good seal.

Anon_451 – at 23:14

30 October 2006

The day after tomorrow – at 12:08

my question

What homeopathic theripies will most effectively counteract the cytokine storm.

What do I need to take to fight the fire without fueling it.

02 November 2006

bump – at 13:45
FriscoParentat 14:44

Blue @ 22:46..rofl. DennisC @ 23:10.. good point.

23 November 2006

Calico – at 22:58

The day after tomorrow “What homeopathic theripies will most effectively counteract the cytokine storm.”

Stop it before it gets to that point. The right homeopathic remedy at the very beginning of the disease should keep it from progressing that far.

NS1 – at 23:31

Prepare your body before the first pandemic wave by deeply nourishing and detoxifying all of your major organs so that your immune system will operate properly.

Waiting until infection to take action may be a death sentence with PF51.

bump – at 23:55
Retrieved from http://www.fluwikie2.com/index.php?n=Forum.PerfectKnowlege
Page last modified on November 23, 2006, at 11:55 PM