http://www.permaculture.org.au/ Look at the “Greening the dessert” video (one-inch icon on the right hand side column). Listen to it. Two sentences pop up: “supply chain” and “in four months we had figs”. Did I listen correctly?
Attack Of The Hornworms!!!
In another gardening thread a couple of weeks ago, someone was complaining about something eating their tomato plants. They thought it was probably a deer or rabbit. In all likelyhood it was hornworms. There are very few, if any, critters that eat on tomato plants, but hornworms love them.
Just a reminder to any new gardeners out in FluWikiLand, check your tomato plants daily to see if anything has been eating the leaves off. (Here in Oklahoma, the hornworms are in full attack mode. Up north, they will probably be there soon.) If you see that something has been munching on your plants, look them over real close until you find the big green catapiller that has been doing the munching. If you can’t find him, wait until early in the morning or after dark and look again. At night, take a flashlight and examine every limb of the plant. Pick the worm off and squish him under your foot. These catapillers usually are about the size of your index finger, that long and that big around. Yes, they are big, but they won’t hurt you.
“This has been a public service message. Down with Hornworms, Long Live The Tomato Plant.”
Deer will eat tomato plants. Deer will eat almost plant.
Giant brown furry locusts.
I have many tomatoe plants, out here near Death Valley, and every day toward sunset, I will check the plants for hornworms. They will devour your plants something terribly, and what I do is pull them off (the horn is not a horn so it will not hurt you), and I hold them in my hand and take them to the chickens. That is about the only worms they get out here and they make fast work of them. Sometimes two chickens pulling on one hornworm. Get used to looking for those hornworms, and soon you will be finding them smaller and smaller, as if you dont, they get HUGE by eating. “Attack of the Killer Tomato HORNWORMS” will soon be coming to a theater near you.
Gary: Makes me want to get some chickens just to see them pull the hornworms apart. Even though they don’t hurt you they are slimy feeling, wriggling devils.
I can’t touch them, when I find one the whole leaf is sacrificed.
I tried some verticle gardening… with canteloupe. I ran some of the vines up on a make-shift trellis. I used mesh bags, like apples and oranges come in, to put the baby canteloupe in. I attached the mesh bags to the trellis with garden tape (weight is on the bag, not canteloupe vine.) They are huge, and almost ready to pick… and still intact… 3 large fruits, several small fruits. I have done this with cucumbers, & I think I may have done this years ago with cantaloupe, but can’t remember. Anyway, it works. So, if spacee is an issue, cantaloupes can be grown vertically. FWIW.
I am glad that this topic has been resurrected. Hornworms are the bane of tomato plants (ignoring the possiblity of Giant Brown Furry Locusts - copyright - “FW – at 10:16″).
For the most part, once the tomato plants get established (a few feet tall at least), you do not need to worry so much about the tomato hornworms. However, having said that it is a good idea to check your plants. It is not hard to find them, look for hornworn poo. When you find them pull them off and feed them to your chickens or squish them. Personally, I don’t think I will go the chicken route for obvious reasons.
I am a bit squeamish but I have found that a pair of pliers works wonders, just try not to squish the branch. Also, if the hornworm has little white cocoons on it leave it alone. Those cocoons are from a wasp that eats the hornworms so let them be (by the time you see the cocoons the horhworm is on its deathbed anyway). If you have the opportunity, check your local nursery, they might be selling the wasps. Excellent investment.
A couple things to keep in mind about tomatoes. The first year may not be a problem for hornworms (unless your neighbors are growing tomatoes). After the first year, fugetaboutit, and keep an eye out. The best way to tell is to look for large moths, you will know when you see them (they are about the size of small hummingbirds). If you see the moths then start checking for hornworms.
Secondly, a trick I learned if you do not have many tomatoes, once they start to bloom gently shake the plant. This can shake the pollen loose and pollinate other blossoms. The best time to do this is when there is no wind. If you have a number of plants then this will likely not be an issue.
Mike
I have found hornworms on first year tomatoe plants and I am the only one in the area that even grows any. And the chickens really like them. Didn’t they feed hornworms on that reality show on television? Guess they are edible,,,,at least the chickens love them.
As most of you know, the rubarb plant leaves are poisonous although the stalk is very edible. As I was looking around my garden (and property), the thought came to me that I wonder what plant parts I could safely eat besides the produce. I grow egg plants, tomatoes, onions, cantelope, watermelon, kale, jerusalum artichokes, cucumbers, potatoes, and things like that. I do have cactus and I know you can eat the “ears” when you use a fire to remove the thorns, but have no clue about other plants in my garden. Is there a site or information that is avaiable that explains if parts of the garden plants can be safely eaten. If things got real mad max style, at least that would help some.
Gary Near Death Valley – at 19:02, my experience has been that first-year tomatoes are less likely to be susceptible to hornworms. However, I am not an expert on hornworms. My experience is quite a few years out of date.
I have 2 comments about this topic. Keep an eye out for big moths and check your tomatoes for hornwarms. They can decimate a tomato crop unless you have optimal growing conditions. If you are raising chickens they do love hornworms. Personally, I think I would prefer the hornworms then the chickens.
Gary Near Death Valley – at 19:02, I am not trying to pick a fight, I think we may be in agreement on the essentials. I woulld expect that you would be growing great tomatoes given the sun (by your tagline) and sufficient water.
Mike
The added sun here is a negative as far as garden vegs are concerned. Most people lose their garden by not having a protection for it. I came from near Portland, Oregon where any sun was good and needed as much as you could squeeze out of the clouds, but down here near Death Valley, the sun will kill more plants, even with water as the UV is so bright. Most of my plants are planted so by 1 pm they are in shade (planted on east side in flower bed), and planted under either military camaflage netting or what is called sun screen, which blocks out 80% of the sun. I know people here that try to grow things out in the sun and it kills it time after time,,,,,,that is if the hornworms dont eat all the tomatoe plant first. I pick off about 500 hornworms a summer off the tomatoe plants, all are first year plants as I dont let them grow again for the next year.
The teeny little parasitic wasps do work great on the hornworms, we never seem to have a problem with them anymore. The wasps overwinter, and incidentally are not a stinging type of wasp. We’ve had them here for about 10 years - if I do find a hornworm, it always has the little white larvae holders on it and we leave the worm alone to meet it’s fate, and the larvae eat their food.
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Does anybody grow citrus fruits? Last year my oranges were too bitter to eat. Someone told me they weren’t getting enough water. Considering we have been in a drought around here, I wasn’t too optimistic about the oranges this year. Now, it is just the opposite… rain, rain, rain. (I am sure the rice farmers are happy.) (I am hoping this will make my oranges not so bitter… and me happy.) So… anybody know anything about bitter oranges? Thanks in advance.
Are they real oranges or Seville oranges? Those are also called bitter or sour oranges. They will never be sweet, but you can make marmalade or a pie( like lemon meringue) with them.
Gary Near Death Valley – at 21:55, I have never had the problem of having too much sun and I lived in L.A. Then again, I have never lived in a desert. Thanks for the information.
I think I was not clear on my first-year comment. I meant that, in my experience, the first year that you grow tomatoes you are less likely to have hornworms because it takes awhile for the moths to find the plants.
In any case, I have found that growing a crop of wasps is the best answer to hornworms. The wasps may not thrive in all areas so check with your local gardening store (preferably a place that specializes in the climate zones in your area).
While I was growing up my father had a tomato garden that was approximately 10 feet by 10 feet. The plants were over 6 feet high. We spent whole evenings hunting for hornworms. We never counted by I would not have been surprised if we did not find something on the order of 500 hornworms some summers (and likely missed at least as many). Those suckers can sure get big.
Good luck with your garden this year.
Mike
I believe oranges can become bitter and or pithy with either too much or too little water. I read they like about 20 gallons per tree once or twice a week if it’s really dry. Usually tho if too much water the fruit will split while on the tree. What variety are they?
Anyone have experience growing carob?
Hi friends! I’ve copied this and the preceding two threads due to the great information they contain. Thanks everyone for your contributions! I live in a flat so this info is for future reference, but I just wanted to share these thoughts about sunflower seeds. They can be grown indoors if you have limited space, even in the winter but of course sunflowers are beautiful in the garden, producing lots of seeds for people and birds and mice!
One food I’ve always loved is sunflower sprouts. Who would ever think of it?!? They’re very easy to sprout and are ready to eat in a few days. Of course, the seeds themselves make very healthy eating. These sprouts are delicious!
I sort the seeds first; you’ll find a lot of yellow, broken or dark-coloured ones. Those go in the compost pit. The good ones go on a dinner plate with enough water to cover them, and a piece of paper towel over that. Generally, I use 20–25 seeds for a 3 inch pot. They’re pretty close together. After some hours, before they dry out, pop them in a small shallow plastic flower pot, with the pointy side of the seed down. Each seed has an almost translucent “bag” around it; when I make ém I gently squeeze the seed out of this bag; this way when the leaves come up the bag doesn’t stick the young leaves together. I always use good clean soil.
After 2–4 days, when the plants are about 3 inches high you can harvest them, stem and all. If the second pair of leaves start to appear the sprouts lose their fresh taste and become a little bitter. I eat half a pot each time. You can also sow them in bigger pots to feed more people; just keep in mind to use shallow pots or trays because these powerehouse seeds grow very long roots. Every 4 days or so I start the process over. Try taking these beauties in a mixed salad to a potluck party sometime; people flip out when they see them!
I’ve also experimented with them in the winter on a cold window ledge. They grow much more slowly but if they don’t freeze they’ll come up eventually. I do re-use the soil, after taking out as much of the root system as I can. I set this soil aside so the roots compost back into the soil; this way you avoid the soil getting moldy. I have to reclcle in this way; we live in a small appartment in the big city with little money.
I know that all sprouts are very nutricious and easy to grow;, even the rinse water is very good to drink. Only the alfalfa seeds have a bitter taste, IMO. Try sprouting beans in a jar with a screen over the jar mouth. Any kind of eating beans are good; beans for planting sometimes are coated with anti-fungals. Soak the beans some hours in the jar, pour off the water (use for soups or drink it as is), give them a fresh bath a few times a day and eat before they start getting green (I mean, with leaves).. Lentils and peas are especially delicious. One advantage of eating bean sprouts, besides their high nutrition value, is that they are easily digestible and they don’t give you the flamimg pants syndrome! Best wishes to all.
I live in Utah and have had trouble with snails eating my bean plants. I knew something was eating them but couldnt figure out what, there was never anything eating when I looked for it. They took out all but one bean plant. I have put down round jars with smaller necks filled with beer and laying on their sides. The snails are attracted to the beer, crawl in the neck of the jar and then drown in the beer. Or they get drunk and pass out. Im not sure but they sure stop eating my plants. They were also eating my hollyhocks and makign the leaves look lacey. Other than that my garden is pretty much successful. The corn is huge, tomatoes producing nicely. Squash beginning to bloom. Carrots, radishes, beets, onions, scallions doing great. The garlic is a little slow but doing ok.
Rosie – at 10:31
Drunk snails, that’s a new one. I wonder if it would work for deer. I can just see the ten point buck passed out in the middle of my cucumber’s, sleeping it off.
I don’t drink, but if I could harvest drunk deer while SIP during a pandemic it sure would make it easyier to get some nice beer marinaded steaks. Throw in your snails with a little butter and scallions, some greenbeans, home-grown tomatoes and corn-on-the-cob, and hey, your going to be eating “high on the hog”, or maybe I should say eating “high deer and snails”;-)
escargot, Yum!!
Rosie – at 10:31, I have also had success with using beer to “catch” snails and slugs. I used a pie tin, put in some beer and gleefully watched the suckers drown. I had to switch to a jar after I discovered that my previous cat was drinking the beer. Poor thing would wobble and fall over. I spent more then one evening with a drunk cat in my lap, consoling the poor thing. I currently live in a townhouse and do some gardening on the deck and some inside. No snails but I do have a problem with white flies.
Okieman – at 14:28, “high deer and snails”, that conjures an image. I wish it would work. I have friends who have deer problems and have not had much luck with the traditional (non-lethal) remedies.
Mike
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(the hornworms are coming, be prepared ;-)
I have been contemplating gardening solely for survival sake…but, the hookworm discussion is definitely deterring me. (not sure I can do it…I know it’s wimpy, but I can’t do slimey bugs~)
OK, too funny! HORNWORMS was what I meant…but hookworms would be bad too!
okcinder – at 08:57
“but, the hookworm discussion is definitely deterring me”
I’m sure it was a typo, but hookworms and hornworms are very different things.
Don’t worry about the hornworms, you can always just cut the limb off without touching the catapiller. After you garden a while you will learn to enjoy killing the little buggers that try to eat up all your hard work. Go ahead and try gardening. I used to greatly dislike it as a kid, but find it very satisfying and soothing work now. At one time pretty much everyone kept a garden and knew how to do so. I am somewhat fearful of the consequences that it is no longer true. Start small and build from there.
Hey, you know the difference between hookworms and hornworms, that’s a start. Just build from there;-)
okcinder at 08:57 -
I’m with you on that. Maybe gloves and tweezers would help;-)
You can start small and still harvest a lot, trust me. I have four raised beds (3′x3′ each) right now (just bought 2 more for next year) and I have already gotten enough cucumbers to can pickles, enough lettuce 9earlier) to eat a lot and share, enough yellow squash for any purpose, and am anticipating a bumper crop of various types of tomatoes. (Will can some of those too!) You don’t need a large area to garden, and raised beds are great where the natural soil is not very suitable. (Like my red clay — if TSHTF I can make my own bricks, lol).
InfoLady - The proof is in the pudding, but at the very least we need photos uploaded to http://www.flickr.com ;)
bump for BB.
WOW I just came on to read about the hornworms… found some today..and we picked them off put in a bag for the garbage man…yuk they are ugly !! Made me mad at what they did to my plants… I’ll keep watching for more… but 500.. yikes… too many…
I keep constant alert by checking every night on my tomatoe plants. If I do not check, then you can write off the tomatoes plant in just a few days. Those little thing sure do get hungry,,,,but I pick them off and feed them to the chickens,,,,,,which inturn do their thing,,,,,which in turn goes back into the ground,,,,,growing more tomatoes,,,,which brings on more hornworms. Seems like a circle to me, but that is the way it works. Just have to keep up on it to keep catching up. By the end of summer will have picked off 100s of them, but very rarely do I lose a tomatoe plant.
okcinder, tomatoes are one of the easiest plants to grow as long as they get enough sun and water. There is nothing like a tomato picked fresh from the vine and eaten. The hornworms are a pain but if you are vigilant you can keep on top of them. As Okieman says you can always cut the limb off (as long as it is not one of the main limbs). I did that as a kid. Now I just put on gloves and pull the suckers off.
When looking for hornworms, this is what I do. First look for branches with missing leaves or leaves with divots then follow the limb back - the hornworm is often just back a bit from where the damage is. Second, look for droppings (you will know them when you see them - also see urls below). Look around the area and particularly above for the little monster. Don’t spend a lot of time on each plant. You are looking for the big hornworms which can do a lot of damage in a day. If you have smaller plants then you need to be more vigilant. I have found that the evening is the best time to go worm huntin’. They seem to be more active during the day and are less active in the evening.
As mentioned above there are wasps that will lay their eggs in the hornworms. If you see a hornworn with little white sacs on it then leave it be. It should be dead soon but in any case you want the wasps to breed. You may be able to pick up the wasps at your local gardening department or online (braconid wasp, Cotesia congregatus). You will still need to be vigilant as I have found that the hornworms reproduce faster then the wasps but every little bit hurts.
I just recently learned that the hornworm pupae spend the winter in the soil near where the tomato plants grow. One preventative measure is to till the soil after the plants die (if weather permits) or in very early spring otherwise. This can destroy the pupae and reduce the number of moths for the following growing season.
There is also something called BT (Bacillus thuringensis) which is supposed to be useful in controlling caterpillars and is relatively non-toxic for people (don’t drink it or get it in your eyes when spraying and you should be ok). I tried it once, a few years ago, and it seemed to be of some help.
I have included a couple of links which might be of use. Note that these sites tend to repeat themselves. If you decide to use pesticides (which I don’t recommend) then read the directions very carefully and make sure that they mention tomatoes. In general you want to avoid systemic pesticides. If the directions do not mention tomatoes then do not use it. Also, when spraying pesticides for other plants make sure that conditions are such that the pesticide cannot reach the edible part of your garden (the sprayer will have directions).
Mike
http://tinyurl.com/ln3wm http://tinyurl.com/jnuzb http://tinyurl.com/kwsmv
Lets try that again. Hope this works.
I are a college gradulate. ;-)
Mike
Just an extra note of caution. Hornworms also get on pepper plants. They can quickly defoliate a pepper plant. I have picked two off my jalepenos plants so far this year. They do not seem to be common on peppers, but when they are there, they do a lot of damage.
CAMike – at 18:29
I is a collage gradulate two.
not X not = not2
Not sure if it works for hornworms, but does for other critters. Use soap in a spayer and spray your grass and plants.
Make that a new sprayer and label it so no chemicals are used in it. Other wise you could kill the plant.
Okieman – at 20:29, you are 100% percent correct about horn-worms and pepper plants. The plants grow slowly and the hornworms are voracious. One year we planted some bell peppers near the tomato plants, went away for a few days and came back to pepper plants that had no leaves at all. Needless to say the pepper plants never recovered.
not X not = not2 - ;-)
KimT – at 21:17 - very good point about marking sprayers. You could also make yourself sick if you used the sprayer with a pesticide designed for non-edible plants then reused the sprayer for your edibles.
Mike
oops. how do you get the the number thingie (technical term) to display correctly?
Mikr
cactus az & CashB--- they are real oranges. I think the problem was/is inconsistent watering, especially during the really hot seasons. This year, the fruit is abnormally small. We have been in a drought, and have had little rain. It is hard to water the trees because of the distance from the spigot and they are spread out across the width of our property. We recently purchased a walking sprinkler, but I am not sure that is going to even work. I will have to set it out 3 different times to water all the trees. We have been discussing digging an irrigation trench, but we’re worried about damaging the root system. The lemons and limes have been great. Also, we have a “red meat” orange that does fine. It is the regular oranges that are so bitter… and the texture is off. We had tried soaker hoses… but tractor mower cut them up. To be honest, I am worried about all of our citrus trees (10) this year due to lack of rain. At this point, I am just thankful they are living! We even mulched them, not that it helped much.
Thanks for answering. I’m not sure how to water, irrigate these trees.
CA Mike- Thanks for the worm info. Haven’t hit on this thread in a while.
Ok, am serious about starting the garden thing…worms or not. But I am really looking into starting just a small raised garden, to see if I can even do it. (or want to) And honestly am only interested in trying to grow (for now) “bulk” food that we would really use in a self-serving situation. And foods that my kids will eat. (unfortunately, not brave vegetable eaters).
Can anyone help—Can I do potatoes and beans in a raised garden in OK? Have red dirt around here…what do I need to do soil wise?
Someone told of growing potatoes in a bale of hay, or a barrel of hay? Or a hill of soil? Anyway, they grew well and were easy to harvest, because they didn’t have to be dug up, being above ground already.
I had another infestation of bugs in my squash plants the other day. I also had a lot of ticks crawling on the porch as well as the dogs. (We live in the middle of the woods and ticks are a regular everyday occurance for us.) So, I stocked up on Sevin Dust to replace what I used on the garden, dogs and porch. I also have Roundup and a fruit tree spray.
I know some that post and read here on the FluWiki do not believe in using pesticides but grow organically. That is fine. I don’t like to use them, but will when there is a need. Even if you do not use pesticides now you might consider purchasing some to use as a last resort if you have bug problems in your garden during a pandemic. Same thing goes for fertilizer. Since we are talking about food you might have to survive on, this might be an important decision. Consider it. You wouldn’t have to use it unless it came down to an emergency situation.
okcinder – at 13:54
Meant to answer your question before now, but I guess better late than never. The red dirt (“soil”, for you purist out there) we have in some parts of Oklahoma will grow a garden fine. It is like any other dirt, but is red. Some red dirt is rich, some is poor. A soil test would tell you what it needs. Contact your county extension agent and they can tell you where you can get your soil (dirt) tested.
A raised bed should grow potatoes, or beans, or purplehull peas (hint, hint) just fine.
Okieman – at 09:47
I’ve stocked up on insecticides too. I try not to use them, but sometimes it’s the only way. My garden looks awful. First the drought, then a month of rain, now heat. When I finally could make it to my cantaloupe… they were filled with bugs, inside the fruit. Never seen that before. The rotted on the vine. (On a trellis in a mesh bag.) Tomato plants snapping out of it. Storms blew all the flowers off all garden plants. Squash bit the dust early summer. Peppers, tomatoes, and cantaloupe all that are left. Most herbs playing out, too. It’s really time for that tho’, & to get ready for fall garden (which is our biggest, most successful garden down here.) We would starve to death on this years garden! Figs are making. Again, the rain kept me from being able to get out to them but still didn’t loose many. Citrus looks awful… worse I have ever seen. Bananna trees are loaded… but they have to be picked exactly when they ripen or they aren’t worth a flip. So, hopefully that won’t happen during a continuous rain spell. Ants are taking over… the drought then rain. Nothing seems to be helping. Frogs are everywhere… I mean… EVERYWHERE!! I figure that’s helping kill the bugs, so I can’t imagine what they’d be like otherwise.
Anyone have experience using shade cloth? What shape frame do you use for it, and how do you attach the cloth to the frame? I’m guessing that the frame would have to be like a tunnel or an igloo so that water wouldn’t collect on top and collapse the whole thing.
Mari, water passes right through shade cloth, so the rain doesn’t bother it at all (but heavy winds can rip it if it’s not secured well). It can be attached to any kind of frame… stapled on, tied on, whatever. Many times shade cloth comes with bound edges and grommets, but sometimes not. It is available in different “degrees” of shading power (30% shade, 50% shade, and so on). Shadecloth can be somewhat hard to find, I’ve not seen it at anyplace like Home Depot, Lowes, Walmart, etc. Check with your local nurseries to find out where you might get it, also it is available on the net, just google it. Some places can do custom sizes of shadecloth.
Kim – at 15:02 - Thanks! It’s good to know that water can pass right through. A streamlined appearance would help in the wind. I’ll bug the Lowe’s & Home Depot garden people to see if they can get shade cloth at least by next spring.
its taken me so long to read down the thread that I’ve forgotten who asked the question about eating the other parts of plants, but I haven’t seen it answered so thought I ought to but in.
Tomato and potato plants are both poisonous. The leaves of both plants are poisonous and if left the potato plant will produce a fruit which is also bad news. They both belong to the same family as deadly nightshade.
hoggie
I’ve been working with the Excel spreadsheet of nutrition info that the USDA has available on their website, with plans to estimate the protein, carbohydrate, & fat content of the canned/dry foods recipes.
One thing that has popped out of that is the high protein content of winged beans (also known as goa bean or princess bean). All parts of the plant are edible and have high protein content (see article). The article includes a link to a site that has seeds for sale of a day-neutral variety (recommended if you want to grow the plant farther north than Florida). It prefers humid conditions, but I may try it in New Mexico just to see what happens.
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