If a pandemic starts, what supplements, antibiotics, antivirals, drugs, etc. will you be taking prior and during an H5N1 infection? In what ammounts? What exactly does everyone have planned at this point based on what we know right now?
OK, me first:
I have only four courses of Tamiflu. I know we may end up with a Tamiflu-resistant virus. We have four family menbers so I haven’t decided the best way to use my four courses.
I also have four courses of Amantidine. I read that it would be wise to take Amantidine and Tamiflu at the same time so that is my plan.
For antibiotics, I have plenty of erythromycin but I want to get Azithromycin also. I plan on starting the antibiotics at the first sign of illness.
I will get a lot of Sambucol this week. I don’t know if I will take it yet but I want to have it on hand. During a pandemic, if we were able to still get information, we might get news that this works. I am still researching and might decide to use it.
I will find a way to get Prednisolone because I have followed everything that TomDVM has had to say about it. His field experience is more valuable to me than everyone else’s guesses. At the first sign of illness, I will do a four day blast of 60, 60, 40, 40 (mg). I am still researching.
I bought a lot of Vitamin D and I will now start taking 2000 iu a day. I will up that to 4000 iu a day if a pandemic starts.
Based on the 1918 thread, I will drink a lot of lemon water during a pandemic, until I run out of lemons. Lemons are rated as “Extremely Alkaline” and they will change your body’s ph. Real life 1918 pandemic results work for me.
I was hoping to hear about what you have bought and how you plan on using it to save lives. What are your “Heavy Hitters”? When will you take it? And how much of it will you take?
Did they use lemon water as a nasel spray in 1918 also? I might do that also, if I can find the supporting information again.
Spok, there has been considerable discussion about the benefits of Vitamin D but of course we need the sunlight to activate it - unless the new synthetic supplements have found a new way of being absorbed.
I have been using mutlivitamins for years and become concerned when large doses of a single form are taken in isolation or for a prolonged period. the important thing is to maintain balance across the vitamin and minersl groups - so take a good general multivit as well as your extra Vitamin D.
Don’t forget that excessive intake of Vitamin C has been linked to the formation of kidney stones.
Also, increasing the intake of zinc during illness is excellent in assisting healing and recuperation.
If you want a good anti-decongestant, use the hot steam treatment and put Friars Balsam or Olbas oil or eucalyptus in the water. Friars’ Balsam is balsamic acids from benzoin and Olbas Oil is a mixture of the following oils: cajuput, clove, eucalyptus, juniper berry, levomenthol, mint and wintergreen - you can almost smell it through your screen :-) Olbas oil can be inhaled as is.
AnnieB – at 00:32
Thank you for the information :) While you are here:
How are you planning on saving your life in the event of a pandemic? What are you going to take, when and how much?
On the Brainstorming Treatment page I put a table to organize all the things I heard about and tried to find documentation to support or rule it out.
Flu Treatment Database there are over 100 things and of course no one should take medication without consulting a medical professional. It is just gets too confusing. I have not had time to continue updating the table. Ranking would help.
There is a report that Erythromycin may help interfere with influenza.
To fight a viral infection you need to take any antiviral you can get. Tamiflu, Relenza, Amantadine, Rimantadine are the most common available. Beyond that you get into herbs and supplements. The list includes Ambroxol (a mucolytic with antiviral activities), Andrographis, Black Elderberry, Forsythia (available in a combination called Yin Qiao or Yin Chiao), Garlic, Green Tea, Lonicera, Mullein, N-Acetylcysteine (NAC), Quercetin, Propolis, and Baikal Scullcap, Thyme. See the table for dosages and links to information about interactions. No guarantees about efficacy but with no alternatives you use what you can find. Some of these items may thin blood so one needs to be careful about interactions.
Additionally there are homeopathic and aromatherapy treatments. There is less evididence supporting the efficacy of these treatments.
Experts have not had consistent sucess treating [http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Consequences.ARDS | acute respiratory distress syndrome ARDS]. Anti-inflammatories have not consistently worked to reduce cytokine disregulation. Treating pneumonia at home is not simple but we may be faced with a lot of people who need to. Personally I plan to take Fish oil and borage see oil as outlined in post #32 in this discussion thread. Statins has also been discussed here and Statins Revisited and Statins Revisited II.
See also Alternative Treatments discussion.
The alkaline theory is interesting but the body has so many factors trying to control homestasis it could be difficult.
Getting an influenza and pneumonia vaccination would be wise.
I will continue with my multivit programme and will increase vits C and D when it is in my neck of the woods. I also have NAC and will get tamiflu and antibiotics soon - doctor’s visit required to get the scripts.
If anyone in the household should become infected, in addition to the regime above, the fluid intake levels they will be subjected to would probably raise the titanic! This fluid load will include lemon and citrus drinks, electrolytes and just good old-fashioned water. Will also up the cod liver oil. No solids at all until they are well clear of infection.
I will only use the tamilflu once symptoms appear (not as a prophylactic) and will only use the antibiotics if there is any sign of pneumonia or abnormal chest infection. (A GP has taken me through all the signs and processes to ensure whatever we do has the ‘best chance’ of being effective.)
I am semi-depending on the pandemic occurring in the northern hemisphere winter/spring time so it will arrive south in summer/autumn - we will not have such major concerns with low air temps and we can use the sun to recuperate as well.
Hope that helps some.
fredness – at 01:40
Thank you for the information. You’ve done a lot of reshearch! Based on everything you know, what exactly are you going to take, when and how much?
AnnieB – at 01:42 “Hope that helps some.”
You are one of the few that will say what they plan to take. Thank you. People will point you in different directions but they won’t say what their actual plan is. Something about a ten foot pole :)
After all, who wants to be criticized? If I say I will take 2000iu of vitamin D a day, someone will say too high and someone else will say too low.
I hope more people post their plans, even if they use a different name.
Spok, most people reading this do not have the access to or the money for most of the drugs you list. Please don’t criticize them for not speaking up.
I plan on plenty of BB’s red wine flu killer!
Seriously-I now have my family on a multivitamin/supliment course adjusted to their wieghts and needs. I have stocked up on plenty of OTC meds, but have not bought any Tamiflu/antibiotics. When I asked for scripts, I relized I was in for a battle and I beleive in my case my money and energy is better spent in other areas. Please don’t get me wrong-if I could afford it, Id get it.
I’m still reseaching/thinking about vitamin d-that looks promising. I’ll definatly start my fam on Zinc.
Other than that, I don’t have a specific plan-I’m looking forward to reading others plans. Thanks for starting this thread.
Spok..I have been thinking similarly about what we could do, particularly with what we have on hand that would be helpful, in the prevention and treatment during a future pandemic. The lemon juice nasal spray has me thinking…. I read on Cidrap recently that high acidic PH conditions will kill H5N1, (Of course, this is killing the virus, outside of the body.) For you more medical types, is there a safe way to increase the total acidity of the human body that wouldn’t cause damage to internal organs, etc.? Would a high acidic PH possibly kill the virus “in” the body as well?
From Cidrap….
Inactivation of the virus occurs under the following conditions (see References: OIE 2002, PHS): temperatures of 56ºC for 3 hours or 60ºC or more for 30 minutes; acidic pH conditions; presence of oxidizing agents such as sodium dodecyl sulfate, lipid solvents, and B-propiolactone; and exposure to disinfectants such as formalin and iodine compounds.
can’t we produce balanced desinfected nutrition in factories and deliver it through water-taps for infusion, while removing the teeth, and digestive tract ? It’s cheaper, there are fewer diseases and we save the time for cooking. A pandemic would be a good opportunity to get it started.
Hey Anonymous…you can be the test guinea pig…OK? Let us know how it turns out.
Snowhound1 – at 10:32 …is there a safe way to increase the total acidity of the human body that wouldn’t cause damage to internal organs, etc.? Would a high acidic PH possibly kill the virus “in” the body as well?
I cannot envision any method for driving the serum pH down that would not cause organ damage. The normal range for serum pH is 7.35–7.45 (that is, just slightly alkaline from “normal” 7.0). Anytime something happens to move the serum pH away from that narrow range, the body compensates through bicarbonate retention or secretion (excretion?) by the kidneys. You might very temporarily get outside the normal range through very heavy exercise (lactic acidosis) or by holding your breath (respiratory acidosis from the build up of CO2). In both cases, though, our well-designed body compensates for those conditions to bring the pH back in line. There are some disease states which cause low serum pH, such as alcoholic ketoacidosis and chronic pulmonary disease (like emhysema), so maybe we’ll see alcoholics and crying babies among the survivors of panflu (only those who have read Michael Crichton’s _Andromeda Strain_ will understand that).
Hey Dennis..thanks. I really didn’t think it could be that easy. :) What do you think about the lemon juice nasal spray if it presents itselfs high up in the respiratory tract? Any hope there?
The time to start caring for your health is now. Smoking stops now. People who use alcohol have a greater risk of ARDS. Cut back a lot. Much of the damage from the virus is related to oxidative stress. Anti-oxidants may be helpful. Eat a good diet. Take a good multivitamin supplement. There are studies that say reduced selenium levels are related to influenza infection. Brazil nuts have high amounts of selenium. More is not necessarily better. Quceritin and lecithin are good too (see the table). COQ10 is good (especially if taking statins as a preventative) see here.
At the first feeling of flu (even seasonal) I try to take any herbal/supplemental antiviral 4 times per day. You might want to put a dose or two in your car or at work in case you are not at home and start to feel sick. Influenza spreads rapidly and does so before you even feel sypmtoms. There is some great detailed information about H5N1 on the FluWIki page here.
For soft tissues I have Traditional Medicinals Throat Coat. It has cherry bark, licorice, marshmallow, etc. Expectorants have limited value as per American College of Chest Physicians (see Cough in the index here). NAC is also a mucolytic as well as a precursor of glutathione. Also plan to use a humidifier and Vicks Vaporub.
I bought a case of Ceralyte rehydration drink packets.
Make certain you get enough sleep. I have hit a point where I am so tired and stressed that a few nights of good sleep have not helped. Try not to spends hours reading every discussion thread and news report worrying a pandemic is going to emerge any minute. I started doing that last year and am really burnt out. Just make a list and stay focused on moving in the direction of general preparedness. The FluWiki index is a great place to find what you need.
I also made a free cd of articles from WHO, CDC, Mayo Clinic, etc that might be useful to read or have printed out. I wish the treatment section were better but it is a start. http://www.pandemicreferenceguides.com I am trying to make it possible to download it but am having technical difficulties. The Print Summary page is a downloadable pdf file and is a good start.
Snowhound1 – at 11:21 What do you think about the lemon juice nasal spray if it presents itselfs high up in the respiratory tract?
In theory, I guess one could make a case for a highly-acid nasal spray (lemon juice is listed as pH 2.3). I would wonder, though, about the irritation to the nasal mucosa. When I searced PubMed for “lemon juice virus” the only article I found that came close to addressing the issue was in a 2004 issue of Sexual Health and the author there was just advocating studying the use of lemon juice, vinegar, soft drinks and lactobacillus dairy products as vaginal microbicides to protect women from HIV. He or she had not actually conducted any such studies. A PubMed search for “lemon juice virus nasal” comes back empty.
Have you tried squirting lemon juice up your nose to see if it is tolerable?
(please do not add that question to the fluwikie quote thread…)
Professional fluwikian on closed course. Kids, don’t try this at home.
Dennis-LOL I haven’t tried it yet, but I would if I thought it would help. :) I used to put lemon juice on my face as a kid, my Mother told me it would fade my freckles. I do know, you don’t want to get lemon juice in your eyes. :)
I almost forgot, there are some studies from Cuba on the use of pomogranate against influenza. There is also a single study on cranberry on pubmed. I usually prefer more supporting documentation than that if my life depends on it. It couldn’t hurt to eat/drink pomogranate and cranberries.
Old time Italiens used to sip a little vinegar after meals and I have tried it using Balsamic vinegar and wine vinegar. Of course I love anything pickled anyway. Actually I think that a good balsamic has a mellow flavor more like vermouth than vinegar. Try some, it couldn’t hurt I do not think.
Spok - I’m pretty much following your formula. Have visited the vitaminD council online and will utilize that more than I had previously planned, with thanks to pfwag for starting that thread and kicking up my vitD education.
I have many antiinflammatories on board - tumeric, ginger, cinnamon, astaxanthin, krill oil. Also mushrooms, reishi, maitake. Green tea, loose-leaf and capsules.
Kim-chee, lots. 100% blueberry juice, lots. Nicotine gum (for me, not for anyone with nonsmoking history). Still putting together organized plan. Have huge file of info.
Multiple antibiotics on hand but have not yet decided to start right away with sign of infection…they won’t help with viral pneumonia. Have nebulizer and hope it will help open up tight airway as it has in past episodes of viral inflammation, but not too hopeful here given the need for intubation with so many of the h5n1 victims.
Have the printout ‘favorite remedies used to treat influenza’ compiled in 1919 by the Lloyd brothers, a survey of what MDs used for treatment during the 1918 pandemic. Many of the MDs who responded listed their clients treated number and their clients lost number. One doc treated 500 patients and “lost only four to influenza-pneumonia”. Homeopathy was the standard intervention of the time. If you haven’t read this report yet, I recommend it. I found it here on the wiki some time ago.
I’ll try to maintain good health BEFORE a pandemic.
Vitamins, anti oxidants, sambucol, kim chee.
Green tea and berry juice.
More sleep ? Ya right, like that will ever happen… LOL
Ramantadine/ Tamiflu /Probenecid cocktails if anybody gets sick.
Antibiotics for any secondary infection that may happen along.
Albuterol inhalers. Other drugs stocked for things like BP management and congestion management.
Luckily the family is not on any maintenance drugs except OTC pain killers.
Some of the references quoted above sound interesting.
Oh well, that means LESS sleep to read them.
spok – at 20:00 “I will find a way to get Prednisolone because I have followed everything that TomDVM has had to say about it. His field experience is more valuable to me than everyone else’s guesses. At the first sign of illness, I will do a four day blast of 60, 60, 40, 40 (mg). I am still researching”
I would be really concerned about knocking out my immune response with a blast of steroids like that.
A little diluted white vinegar and glycerol nasal spray would keep the nasal mucosa acidic if you thought it would help. Diluted white vinegar solutions works great for bacterial and/or fungal ear infections (swimmers ear). The glycerol should create a lasting base. Just a thought
Green Mom – at 09:53 “I plan on plenty of BB’s red wine flu killer!”
I plan that also :) I think that could be one of the heavy hitters. A glass a day couldn’t hurt. From the 1918 thread there were stories of men, at the time, going to bed with a bottle of whiskey to “sweat it out”.
Lisa in Southern Maine – at 12:20
“Nicotine gum”
There were other stories from 1918, that smokers seemed to survive better. Maybe nicotine is a heavy hitter too?
fredness:
you have so much knowledge and have done so much work that I would love to here what you have planned exactly.
Lisa in Southern Maine – at 12:20
“I have many antiinflammatories on board - tumeric, ginger, cinnamon, astaxanthin, krill oil. Also mushrooms, reishi, maitake. Green tea, loose-leaf and capsules.”
Great work, I don’t think anyone can wrong with what you listed.
Dennis in Colorado – at 11:59
Thank you for everything. I will try to go back and find the information on lemon juice and find out exactly how they used it in 1918.
Snowhound1 – at 12:04
Thank you for helping us figure this out. We will keep working on it :)
Bird Guano – at 12:50
It’s nice to see such a good plan. By the way, what is sleep? :)
Something found while looking for other things … has this been posted before? If so, I did not see it:
Med Hypotheses. 2006;67(3):578–87. Epub 2006 Apr 18.
A nutritional supplement formula for influenza A (H5N1) infection in humans.
Friel H, Lederman H., howardfriel@verizon.net
By early February 2006, the World Health Organization had reported 165 human cases of H5N1 influenza since December 2003, with 88 fatalities. However, the avian H5N1 influenza virus apparently is not yet efficiently transmitted between humans. Though a near-term possibility of a global H5N1 influenza pandemic remains, currently there is no vaccine or anti-viral drug that is proven to be safe and effective in preventing or treating H5N1 influenza in humans. There is thus a compelling public interest in developing alternative prophylaxis and treatment strategies for H5N1 influenza, which would need to address the complex pathogenesis of H5N1 influenza that is responsible for its apparently unusually high virulence. The authors present here a significant body of medical and scientific evidence to support the prophylactic use of a carefully designed nutritional supplement formulation that may antagonize the major pathogenic processes of H5N1 influenza in humans. Through several independently-mediated mechanisms, the formulations may: (a) degrade H5N1 virulence by directly affecting the virus itself, (b) inhibit H5N1 viral replication by maintaining cellular redox equilibrium in host cells, © inhibit H5N1 replication by a blockade of the nuclear-cytoplasmic translocation of the viral ribonucleoproteins and reduced expression of late viral proteins related to the inhibition of protein kinase C activity and its dependent pathways, (d) down-regulate activation and proliferation of proinflammatory cytokines in respiratory epithelial cells and macrophages that are implicated in the pathogenesis of H5N1 influenza, and (e) protect the lungs and other vital organs from virus- and cytokine-induced oxidative stress by supplying and maintaining sufficient levels of exogenous and endogenous antioxidants. Key mediators in these processes include selenium, vitamin E, NAC/glutathione, resveratrol, and quercetin. Taken prophylactically, and throughout the duration and recovery of an H5N1 infection, the nutritional supplement formula may aid humans infected with H5N1 influenza to survive with a reduced likelihood of major complications, and may provide a relatively low-cost strategy for individuals as well as government, public-health, medical, health-insurance, and corporate organizations to prepare more prudently for an H5N1 pandemic. Some evidence also indicates that the supplement formulation may be effective as an adjunctive to H5N1 vaccine and anti-viral treatments, and should be tested as such.
PMID: 16624496
Follow-up to above: I considered buying the full text of the article ($30) but when I started that process, I linked to another version of the abstract that contained the following footnotes:
Disclosure: The nutritional supplement formula described in part herein is patent-pending and has been licensed to Douglas Laboratories, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, as “Hi-Vidomin Nutritional Immune Multi” for sale in the healthcare practitioner market.
1 Howard Friel is coauthor (with Richard Falk) of The Record of the Paper: How The New York Times Misreports US Foreign Policy (Verso, 2004), and is coauthor (with Falk) of Israel–Palestine on Record: How The New York Times Misreports Conflict in the Middle East (Verso, 2007). He is researching and writing a book on emerging viruses, climate change, and globalization, from which much of this research emerged.
2 Harvey Lederman, MD, is Medical Director of the Pioneer Valley Family Practice, Northampton, MA, and is a former associate clinical professor at Yale and Tufts University Schools of Medicine
I went to Douglas Labs’ website and noted the following forumula for “Hi-Vidomin Nutritional Immune Multi”: (I am sure the formatting for the list won’t copy well)
FORMULA (#99408)
6 tablets Contain:
Vitamin A ……………………………………….. 4,800 IU
Vitamin C ………………………………………….. 600 mg
Vitamin D3 ………………………………………… 420 IU
Vitamin E (as d-alpha tocopheryl) ……………….. 420 IU
Thiamine ……………………………………………… 24 mg
Riboflavin ……………………………………………. 24 mg
Niacinamide …………………………………………. 36 mg
Pantothenic acid (as calcium pantothenate) ……… 24 mg
Vitamin B-6 …………………………………………… 2 mg
Folic Acid ………………………………………….. 780 mcg
Vitamin B12 ………………………………………… 90 mcg
Vitamin K ……………………………………………. 72 mcg
Biotin ………………………………………………….. 60 mcg
Boron (as boron citrate) …………………………….. 1.5 mg
Calcium (as calcium citrate) ………………………. 300 mg
Magnesium (as magnesium oxide) ………………. 300 mg
Zinc (as Opti-Zinc®, zinc monomethionine) ………….. 6 mg
Iodine (from kelp) ………………………………….. 150 mcg
Selenium (as selenomethionine) ………………….. 180 mcg
Copper (as copper krebs) …………………………… 1.5 mg
Manganese (as manganese krebs) ……………………. 6 mg
Chromium (as chromium polynicotinate) ……….. 150 mcg
Molybdenum (as molybdenum krebs) …………….. 72 mcg
Choline (as choline bitartrate) …………………….. 150 mg
Inositol ………………………………………………… 24 mg
N-Acetyl L-Cysteine ……………………………. 600 mg
Quercetin …………………………………………… 600 mg
Resveratrol (from Polygonum cuspidatum, root) .. 150 mg
Curcumin (root) ……………………………………. 300 mg
SUGGESTED USE
Adults take 6 tablets daily with meals or as directed by a physician.
Emerson Ecologics sells a 180 capsule bottle (that would be a 30-day supply) of the product for $48.
Well, it is one more thing to consider … but at first glance it just looks like a multi-vitamin (heavy on the Vitamin E) with everything in it except eye of newt and wing of bat.
spok – at 20:00 wrote:
“what supplements, antibiotics, antivirals, drugs, etc. will you be taking prior and during an H5N1 infection?”
In addition to some of the excellent suggestions already posted….
Pharmecutical-grade Omega-3, Sativex (England & Canada only)
I have been writing to friends and family about this sort of thing and worry about complexity, especially for prevention in the absence of pandemic flu. (It helps to start ahead on many of these supplements.)I have settled on a good multivitamin-mineral, fish oil (1200 mg), Vitamin C (2 x 500 mg time release), Vitamin D (1×1000 IU) and Vitamin E (400IU) with the D and C to be doubled if pandemic flu threatens. I am still unsure about Sambucol but leaning towards taking it if pandemic flu emerges and stopping if symptoms appear. Getting seasonal flu and pneumonia shots are also a good idea. For myself, NAC, curcumin, Quecertin and Green Tea extract are also stockpiled.
INFOMASS – at 20:20
“I am still unsure about Sambucol but leaning towards taking it if pandemic flu emerges and stopping if symptoms appear. “
My unscientific opinion is that, Samucol should be safe for anyone over 40–50+ years. Curcumin & Green Tea are also at the top of my list - at any age to mitigate cytokine activation and or damage. I would increase the amount I’m currently once I was aware a pandemic was coming my way.
Ok our plans are ..
A. - not get sick! (includes N95 masks, gloves, moderate SIP, work from home, etc.)
Plan B ..
we have 2x doses of Tamiflu for each family member + 2 extra
we have 1x doses of Relenza for each family member
we have 1x doses of Cipro for each family member (for secondar Pneum.)
IF/When AF Pandemic arrives … each family member take temp 2x
per day and chart. Idea is to jump on AF asap to minimize viral load.
Take Tamiflu, sufficient rehydration and plenty of bed rest.
Along the lines of AnnieB’s approach.
Relenza is plan B if initial or 2nd/3rd wave is highly Tamiflu resistent.
I should have added taking Vitamin A and zinc if a pandemic emerges, along with other vitamins, but not in a “regular” scenario. Sorry for the lapse. (Zinc and Vitamin A are already in the multi supplement taken at all times.) Klatu: Thanks for the insight on Sambucol but I am hoping for some data points too.
INFOMASS – at 21:39 Thanks for the insight on Sambucol but I am hoping for some data points too.
I think we have some pretty good data on elderberry (Sambucol):
J Int Med Res. 2004 Mar-Apr;32(2):132-40.
“Elderberry extract seems to offer an efficient, safe and cost-effective treatment for influenza. These findings need to be confirmed in a larger study.”
Isr Med Assoc J. 2002 Nov;4(11 Suppl):919-22
“Sambucol could therefore have immunostimulatory properties when administered to patients suffering from influenza…”
J Altern Complement Med. 1995 Winter;1(4):361-9.
“A significant improvement of the symptoms, including fever, was seen in 93.3% of the cases in the SAM-treated group within 2 days, whereas in the control group 91.7% of the patients showed an improvement within 6 days (p < 0.001).”
Type “elderberry influenza” into PubMed to see all eight articles.
Note, however, that one of the ways elderberry extract seems to work is by enhancing the body’s cytokine response. That needs to be considered when considering elderberry extract as treatment for older children/young adults (we old farts don’t have to worry as much about that). Your mileage may vary.
SPOK, How on earth did you manage to get a scrip for Tamiflu & Amantidine?
Dennis in Colorado – at 22:09 Note, however, that one of the ways elderberry extract seems to work is by enhancing the body’s cytokine response.
That’s exactly why it and chocolate are NOT recommended for BF, where they could ne the one thing that leads to your death, as opposed to regular flu.
I’ve been trying to find the information on lemon juice in 1918. This is what i found so far:
Re: SCARLET FEVER under Treatment
“The records show that attempts were made to prevent otitis media by the use of alkaline antiseptic mouth washes and gargles”
From the 1918 thread posted by On the West Coast – at 22:02
“He also made them drink lemon juice in water every day with no sugar. None of the other members of the family got sick at all, and her sister, who was very sick, did survive and lived until she was 87.”
and Lisa in Southern Maine – at 22:49
On the west coast - “lemon juice with water…recommended by some clinicians to increase lymphatic flow, and by others to create optimal ph. Anne Louise Gittleman is maybe the most famous advocate of this immune-supportive suggestion. And no-one else in the family got sick. I wonder how he, your grandfather, managed that? Amazing.”
and On the West Coast – at 01:34
“Hi Lisa, no one else got sick. My mother remembers only her sister getting sick. Apparently my grandfather was into “healthy” practices. Some very odd food practices for then, like having to have at least one raw veggie every day. It probably helped that they had a lemon tree or two in the backyard.”
Instead of seaching for lemon juice, I’ll start searching for information on “alkaline antiseptic mouth washes and gargles”
In this chart it lists lemons in the “Extremely Alkaline” catagory:
From PubMed
“Additionally, it was found that neutralisation of this highly alkaline solution eliminated the antibacterial effect. Moreover, a solution of NB and NaOH (of equivalent pH) exerted an antibacterial effect of similar magnitude to that of the solution pre-incubated with Bioglass. Thus, particulate Bioglass exerts an antibacterial effect on certain oral bacteria, possibly by virtue of the alkaline nature of its surface reactions. This may reduce bacterial colonisation of its surface in vivo.”
Dennis in Colorado at 22:09: Thank you for those references on Sambucol, but I meant to say (and was not precise) I wanted to see data points on Sambucol and H5N1, not regular flu. It is true that cytokine response is lower in older folks (I am over 50) but some older people are dying of H5N1. It is likely that your suggestions are valid, but something a bit firmer would be nice. Meanwhile, we need to listen to each other and try to assess what might prevent or reduce the impact of a possible panflu.
Elderberries are ripe here- I wonder if an elderberry (red) wine would be a good flu treatment? :^) However, the news about elderberry and chocolate increasing cytokine responses are distressing-I don’t know if I could get through a pandemic without chocolate!
Sign o’ the times-a year ago I didn’t even know what a cytokine response was. Now Im throwing the term around! geez……
On the onset of symptoms, it is suggested to start Tamiflu treatment, however, how are we to didtinguish between regular flu and BF. The onset symptoms will be just like a the regular flu, it is only after a couple of days with the BF does the severe symptoms start to show. If Tamiflu is given and it is not BF, will our body develop resistance?
and if we wait, and it is the BF, we may not survive if Tamiflu is not given on the onset, is this the catch 22?
NoFluingAround – at 22:37
SPOK, How on earth did you manage to get a scrip for Tamiflu & Amantidine?
Probably the same way I did.
Panic early before the crowd, and the restrictions went into place for Rx ;-)
Have a good relationship with your physician.
YMMV.
NoFluingAround at 11:40-This is the way it goes down. If you are part of a group, the first one to get the flu of any type is going to either waste a dose or begin it in time to save himself. The rest of the group will have to decide if you have ordinary flu or panflu and decide whether to immediately start taking it themselves. Given limited supplies, Tamiflu is not a solution it is a conundrum.
INFOMASS at 7:11-Maybe I dreamed it, but I was sure the last study done with Sambucol involved H5N1, and that it was a study with good methodology and favorable for Sambucol usage.
Medical Maven. That is one of the many good reasons why it won’t work…and what about those side-effects.
Notice with the change of season I am sleeping later. Might be allergies. Friend had a bad cold and I haven’t picked it up though I was careful near him. Am drinking a glass of wine, taking vitamins, plus extra D. Selenium. Have a salad with vinegar every day(minus spinach) which I used to add. Drink green tea.. Prefer Tazo with ginger ready made once a day. Its full of every kind of extra. Loading up on it as it is on sale, and not always available. I add extra green tea bag to it and let it sit on my car dashboard in the sun. I take a few sips between errands as a pick me up. I am simply getting myself into better condition in all ways. Cutting out anyone that gives me stress of any kind. Sort of a toxic cleanse of every sort.When and it it hits will slog down Sambucall, take the tamiflu plus homeopathic, plus lomatum. if I think I’m sick enough for it to be a flu. If it is really the Avian h2h will hunker down and slog down wine at least 2 glasses a day.With all the world to choose from, don’t know where its best to be situated.
Remember that B-Complex helps you handle stress and if we sip we will have plenty of that. Also most people are low in vit A, the body sends most of it to the eyes if our eyes are stained and that is most people after 50. Also Vit A helps all of the mucus membrane tissue. Zinc helps you heal. And the older we are the harder it is for our bodies to absorb Vit and Minerals. So folks start taking them.
spok - oil of oregano (http://tinyurl.com/gu3ou http://tinyurl.com/zo9mu http://tinyurl.com/l6en7) and organic unrefined coconut oil (http://tinyurl.com/qxcp8 http://tinyurl.com/pgw4q http://tinyurl.com/fvxvq) are also important part of our arsenal. There is much research being done on coconut oil and it’s fascinating. Reputedly thyroid-supportive too, but I haven’t seen good studies proving that.
That is strained not stained.
I was reading Running World and the A list that they consider essential for runners. Almonds. Eat 24, three times per week. Canned Black Beans. One Chicken Breast. Dark Chocolate , one ounce a few times a week. Eggs, up to 15 a week. Frozen Mixed Berries. Two cups a day of fruit. Frozen Stir Fry Vegetables. Low Fat Yogurt. Mixed Salad Greens. One orange a day. Salmon 2 times a week. Sweet Potatoes. Whole Grain Bread, Cereal and Pasta. Personally I would consider incorperating this all into my weekly diet. The better we are fed prior to any SIP the better for us all if it comes to a long quarentine.
Medical Maven at 15:20: The one article on elderberry and H5N1 I have seen was done in vitro and cannot address the cytokine issue. I agree that it probably helps in several ways with most flu but may complicate the H5N1 overstimulation of cytokines. In a pinch, one might try it anyway and take curcumin to reduce the cytokines, especially if one is older. But seeing how it works in animal models in reality would be reassuring.
INFOMASS at 17:32-I will be chasing my daily glass of red wine with a shotglass of elderberry concentrate during the pandemic waves. I will be flavoring my meat dishes with turmeric just to be on the safe side. But, overall, the way I figure it, is that if elderberry can prevent runaway replication (H5N1’s hallmark), a cytokine storm is highly unlikely.
i have two courses of tamiflu in capsule form. am not sure how my (four year old) child and i could manage with only this much if one of us were to become ill as the other would no doubt soon follow.
i am exploring Arbidol at this poing and plan for amantadine.
the issue of how to know when to give what to whom and how is the greatest source of stress when i consider it. i need to acquire more antivirals. relenza would be nice. if i had more, then i would begin prophylactic trtmnt on the other one of us that had not begun to show symptoms yet. again, i have no idea how i could pull all this off.
my child and i already take a multi, Omega oils, acidophilus, and cal/mag/D/C supps daily. additionally, i take extra mixed tocopherol E, selenium, and garlic. am not sure how we’d be able to get this stuff into us once sick, but have…
resveratrol, curcumin/pepperine, lomatium dissectum, zyflamed (anti-inflammatory mushroom concoction from Mycomeds), and perhaps a few more like propolis, cat’s claw, glutathione,…
problem is, this stuff is all very expensive and difficult to stockpile for that reason.
i recommend that anyone who hasn’t already look into lomatium dissectum, known as ‘To-sa’ by the Native Americans. relatively inexpensive, use of this by the namerind population during the 1918 pandemic sure sounds very very hopeful. there is some risk of a reaction in the form of a harmless, tho apparently extremely uncomfortable, often full body rash, accompanying its use. this rash may be a reaction to a purification type process. however, if used once beforehand, the likelihood of a reaction is somewhat lessened, apparently. ? it’s available in tincture form for about $10. a friend tells me the root may be purchased at the Asian mkt. ?
i’ve had the pneumovax. am still working on acquiring antibiotics tho this has become a major priority on my prep To Do list. i need to stop putting that one off.
Green Mom et al - regarding elderberry
If you want an easy way to ingest elderberry (perhaps not as much fun as a wine) then make elderberry and apple jam. My mum made it for years and as kids we just loved it - all out toast and sandwiches were smothered in the jam. Sadly, I no longer have access to the elderberries :-(
I have been dehydrating everything I can get my hands on in the vegetable and fruit category that is “dark” in colof. I figure if we have it and eat it, we might “hit” on something needed. So, daily we will be eating something “dark” from those categories.
Zinc supplements. In addition, I am trying to put up enough meat, seafood, and liver, eggs, milk, whole-grain products for at least 1 daily source of zinc.
Multi-vitamins.
Vit C- adding 500mg now, working up to 1500mg by end of Oct (as tolerated.) Also, have dehydrated as many Vit C sources as possible to add to cooking or snack on. Plus purchased powdered drink mixes w/Vit C added.
Resveratrol
Scutellaria
Passiflora
Valerin
Curcumin with peperine/tumeric
oscillococcinum (have no idea if it will work, but it’s all I know to do)
L-Lysine- in case we get fever blisters, & because it helps absorb calcium
I am trying to grow every herb I can get my hands on… again, maybe I will hit on something. At least I’ll have it. If I can keep it living.
Garlic and onion in every form I can get my hands on.
Cranberry supplements. Although it may not be proven to help with this flu… if I need it for a UTI… I’ll have some version of it.
st John’s wort
flax seed oil supplements
a lot of teas… like chammolie, scutellaria (nerves!) but also tea for tannins
Looking at all of these prescriptions for H5N1 prevention and treatment (including mine) we will either be alive at the end of the day or the healthiest corpses on the planet.
Lisa in Southern Maine ¨C at 16:18 “spok - oil of oregano”
Good information, thank you.
Medical Maven ¨C at 18:19 “INFOMASS at 17:32-I will be chasing my daily glass of red wine with a shotglass of elderberry concentrate during the pandemic waves. I will be flavoring my meat dishes with turmeric just to be on the safe side. But, overall, the way I figure it, is that if elderberry can prevent runaway replication (H5N1¡äs hallmark), a cytokine storm is highly unlikely.”
I’m going with your plan.
On a different note, has anyone made up their mind re: Statins or Red Rice Yeast(Statin)? What statin, how much and when?
NoFluingAround – at 22:37 “SPOK, How on earth did you manage to get a scrip for Tamiflu & Amantidine?”
My wife pulled if off by going to the Dr. and saying that I was crazy with bird flu fear. She told the Dr. that my stress was impacting our marrige and the scrips would calm me down.
That way my wife looked normal to the Dr., they both got a good laugh at me and we got the scripts :)
This might be a good way to get some Elderberry in you?
Merlot~Cabernet Franc Blend with Elderberry
Per Will:
The Elderberry wine actually comes in a sweet and dry now. The Vintner hasn’t updated the site yet.
I had a few herb and supplement buying sprees, so have lots to choose from. I’ll be away from home next month and am worried about (if it happens then) my husband and grown kids knowing what to do with all these choices. I made a syrup, labeled “cough and sore throat” by boiling elderberries, ginger, Irish moss, slippery elm, some cayenne pepper, peppermint, lemon balm, and horehound, straining out the solids, adding LOTS of sugar and boiling to a thick syrup. They will know what to do with this, if they can get past the hot pepper sensation! It’s very warming, and I hope some help if used early on. Horehound is helpful for coughing out the mucous.
Even though I can find enough information yet, I’m looking into bee venom suppliments. Does anyone have imformation or experience with this?
According to http://www.theness.com/articles.asp?id=9
The National Multiple Sclerosis Society (NMSS) sponsored a study and published the following reports: Preliminary Test Results Of Bee Venom In Mice With MS-Like Disease May 8, 1998. They studied the effect of bee venom on mice with experimental allergic encephalitis (EAE), the standard animal model of MS. They conclude:
“In their initial series of small experiments, honey bee venom had no beneficial effect against the course of EAE, and some of the mice treated with bee venom experienced a worse course than those that received inactive placebo.
“Honey bee venom contains a mixture of toxins and other biologically active compounds. Additional studies are underway to determine whether any of these individual components may have potential benefit for treating symptoms of MS.
“The investigators caution that their finding that some mice experienced a worse course of disease after receiving honey bee venom raises possible safety concerns for the use of honey bee venom therapy in humans.”
http://www.nationalmssociety.org/research-1998may3.asp
Medical Maven – at 09:19
“Looking at all of these prescriptions for H5N1 prevention and treatment (including mine) we will either be alive at the end of the day or the healthiest corpses on the planet. “
HaHaHa! I missed the fluwikian humor while I was away.
I have worked with many people who are from Mexico.
I have been told many times to take one or two shots of tequila, with lots of lemon, at the first signs of sickness. It reminded my of the guy whole survived the 1918 pandemic by going to bed with a bottle of wiskey to “sweat it out”.
Has anyone heard of this before? Does anyone have any plans along these lines? What are you thoughts?
I have worked with many people who are from Mexico.
I have been told many times to take one or two shots of tequila, with lots of lemon, at the first signs of sickness. It reminded my of the guy whole survived the 1918 pandemic by going to bed with a bottle of wiskey to “sweat it out”.
Has anyone heard of this before? Does anyone have any plans along these lines? What are your thoughts?
Spok - a cousin of mine from Dublin has a scotch/lemon/hot water/honey brew for illness that’s been used for quite a while too. He swears by it, but the smell makes me sick so no strong alcohol remedies for me.
Lisa in SM
Remember the alternative to your Dublin cousins concotion, just have some of that smooth Balvenie straight up! The other ingredients were there just to make the cheap Scotch palatable! IMHO of course. And I do have some RWFD and WWFK. Thanks Melanie and BB?
NauticalMan - ah yes, I did forget the upgrade! I will be looking into it, and will have a shot for you!
Getting back to the subject of the thread, can anyone give an opinion as to what could take the place of Dr. Woodson’s recommendation of Hydrocodone/ACP as a last resort pain killer. As have discussed on other threads, no doctor seems to want to give those out before hand considering they are a controlled substance and are impossible to get online without a copy of your medical records or your doctor’s ok, a Catch 22 of course!
Nurses, pharmacists, can any of the OTC drugs be a substitute without overdosing? Of course if you need those drugs at that point in your illness, an overdose might not be so bad! Sorry to be morbid, but all I can see is one of those situations where Doctor Woodson recommends these things, most of them end of life, pallative medication, and having to die a painful, bad death because my doctor is unavailable, drugstores are out of things, hospitals are shut down due to overload. Let’s hope SIP will be enough. Will try one last time when I see my GP soon to discuss these things, but he was not amenable last time six months ago, which was when I decided to find anti-virals and so on in my own way, as others here have done. Sad how much time, money and energy I have put into prepping and to have a doctor who knows me well still refuse to be of any help. Anyone have any other suggestions? Is anyone else worried about this? Have some of you been able to obtain these things through your doctors or other sources?
spok – at 20:29 Has anyone heard of this [the use of alcohol] before? Does anyone have any plans along these lines? What are your thoughts?
According to this study, the consumption of 500 ml of red wine, or equivalent amounts of dilute alcohol, causes no change (good or bad) in “phagocytic activity and intensity of neutrophils and monocytes, production of tumor necrosis factor-alpha, interleukin-2, and interleukin-4, lymphocyte proliferation, and lytic activity of natural killer cells.”
Additonal note re: above. It should be noted, though, that when one inputs “alcohol immune system” into a PubMed search, there are 18631 hits. Maybe somewhere in that large volume of work, we can find direct scientific support for the use of BBRWFK.
Does anyone want to be the guinea pig?
In Prague I bought some medicinal alcohol concocted from herbs, I think it was called Bechicova. I wonder how medicinal liquors like wine from elderberries and those with other herbs might work. Have to cruise the ailses of the local liguor stores today and see what they have. Winter is a good time to be taking a small apertif in the evenings before retiring. I’ve dragged home all kinds of weird liguors in my travels, I think I’ll start testing them out. We seem to be having an early onset of cold weather. Waiting for Indian Summer after the first frost. Will also read up a bit on alcohol and the immune system. I think we all owe a vote of thanks to everyone else on the wiki who contributes their bits and peices of information and their own practical application and personal trial.
At some point, if there is enough time, I’d like to get about 100 bottles of wine after the the rest of the preps are done.
A glass or two might help you keep you sanity during hard times. What is the recommended dosage for BBRWFK?
I just talked to mt grandmother. She was three in 1918. They didn’t go out when it was bad and her mother made her wear cotton masks and cotton gloves. For medicine she was given wiskey and honey. She also remembers a teaspoon of cod liver oil a day. She said it tasted so bad that she was given candy to chase it down. She never got sick but a year or two later she came down with diphtheria which could have been the flu? They quarantined the house until she got better. Her father worked on the sea so he wasn’t around many people except for his crew.
above was me :)
There seem to be a lot of sick schoolchildren, so I am starting to A. be more vigilant about the hand to eye and nose things. It’s a hard habit to break. I touch my eyes and think, oh no… So am wearing larger frames to intercept my fingers, which touch glass, not membrane. B. Back on a Omega 3 and vitamin and herbal routine. C. Drinking more green tea and pure grape and cranberry juices, not the coctail drink junk. Getting more exercise before its too cold. Once its snowing the only thing I’ll be doing is shoveling the stuff. Have plenty of vino flu killer but am saving that for the winter and any possible SIP. So a dash of vodka in juice in the evening, when I’ve settled in for the night. ONce it turns nippy I am going to bundle up in long winding scarves to cover a cold nose. There are so many little things one can do that come to mind, before anything really goes haywire. Just doing things that become good habits. Have gone to crowded places, but not jam packed the way NYC is in Autumn. After Thanksgiving NYC is almost unnavigatable.Reading Spoks post, it seems his grandmother did a lot of the things we all are considering. Cod liver Oil, honey. masks and covering of hands and isolation.I too am going back to the basics tenants that I was brought up with. While I will never live the simple way that my mother did, how she lived makes sense. Her faith, her family, her children and her garden made up her world. How complex a life I have led in comparison, yet is it any more satisfying than the simpler existance of the past? I think our mental attitude will also make a difference. It always does.Indian summer is here and it’s time to soak it up before Novembers chill and damp.
spok at 8:40-All of the many studies that I have seen through the years on the optimal daily intake of red wine was one 5 ounce glass per day for women and two 5 ounce glasses per day for men. This amount lowered blood pressure, protected against dementia, lessened insulin resistance, etc. without increasing the cancer risk from alcohol.
I would assume that if the resveratrol (and other elements) in those amounts of daily intake could affect those many health conditions that it would also be good for the protective effect in regards to avian flu.
I forget what the studies specific to influenza said.
I generally drink one glass per day with my noon meal (and more at parties). Love those parties. : )
“(and more at parties). Love those parties. : ) “
Me too!
Thank you for the perfect answer. Once again you came through. :)
On another note, does anyone know the differences between fresh squeezed lemons and lemon juice you can buy at the store?
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