OK…let’s assume BF comes.
What are the skills, services and preps that can be bartered or sold after BF. I want to think of how to prepare to “live, work, play”…on the Other Side.
What is your vision?
Mechanic - if you can get an engine to run, you can get power. If you can get power, you cna restart the world. Better start reading that Honda or Briggs and Stratton owner’s manual. And that goes for not just pan flu, but American Hiroshima or any of the other disaster scenarios I’ve seen discussed here. And a rototiller will feed a family a lot easier than doing your garden my hand, giving you time to try to rebuild society. So, learn how things work. Beyond that, things are negotiable.
First and foremost we will have to repopulate the planet. I volunteer for this most important task. It won’t be easy, but it’ll have to be done :)
then HIV will get the rest of us - tricky little varments those viruses.
Candlemaking comes to mind as a first job sort of trade.
Gardening & babysitting also come to mind as simple but necessary functions so those of you who can crank your Honda & Brigg your Stratton will be able to do so without interruption!
Also anyone who can communicate a great distance will be in great demand.
Progression of what is needed:
Lucky Leader, Avid Followers, Defensible Area, Water Source, Hunters, Scavengers.
That will do for the first fifty years.
Healers, plant identification skills, midwives. Collections of raw materials, manual tools, how-to books.
That was me, Jane
cooking from scratch…
Medical Maven – at 22:30.
50 years???
JJF at 23:19-Don’t be disingenuous, you know it could be more years than that. Lots of “stuff” left, high mortality continues post-pandemic, past the “disorder” phase. And remember, this “gauntlet”, if it comes, will select for the “genetically fit” much more than it will select for the “culturally fit” if you extrapolate out a couple of years past the end of a “two-year” pandemic.
Nature “in the raw” doesn’t care as much about saving “skill sets” as she does in saving “genes” chock-full of stamina, endurance, strength, guile, and sheer animal exuberance, (with a little intelligence thrown in for good measure, but not so much as to confuse the host).
farming. medical.
wine/beer making. : D
and on the play side, performance art, music, theater.
but let’s not repopulate the earth. at least not like now.
(oh, and let’s not forget those folks who know how to take care of the nuclear stuff. yikes! not sure how to figure all that into the archaic revival equation.)
Gold, silver, bullets, seeds, food and meds all tradable. Tools will be everywhere, oil based fuel won’t last long. Fishing and hunting will be good in some places.
I am not a nurse, but have a fairly decent set of first aid and diagnostic skills. Our state emergency plan says that licensure requirements may be set aside in case of emergency, and there is also the Good Samaritan law to look at. I am not talking about heart surgery here, just first aid and therapeutic intervention (I am an occupational therapist by training.)
I am also a top notch bicycle mechanic . . . bring me your bikes!
Medical Maven – at 23:37 — “Don’t be disingenuous, you know it could be more years than that”
I’m afraid I have to admit (to myself) you’re right.
I think I let monotreme sway me on another thread where he indicated some select cities will survive largely intact.
With 90% of population gone, I think we’ll see settlements form around hydro electric plants in proximity to water treatment facilities.
Farming, I hope, can be carried out with diesel fuel (no fresh gas).
I wonder alot about property ownership. Will anyone “own” homes or will they be free for the taking after the bodies are removed?
There should be ample vehicles sitting for whoever. Has to be diesel, gas goes bad.
I don’t see the villages or settlements as having to be defensible, unless one village has a resource that another village needs (maybe a chlorine facility)
I’m busy swotting for my Post Pandemic Warlady Certificate exam ;-)
those avid readers of Isaac Asimov’s Second Fundation will want to look at http://www.worldchanging.com and buy their book - we want to get ready for that, or what?
or of course Earth Abides (da book)
Time to start collecting manually operated tools - bit and brace, cross-cut saw, horse-drawn plow. Smithing skills may come in handy.
I hope some Western Democracy has bought into the idea of creating an “ark” underground (or on an island) with experts of all kinds and their families, and critical supplies, and a strike force of troops not numbering less than 2,000 and their families. After three years of isolation this group would go to those favored sites such as JJf postulated and germinate civilization again.
Utopian, yes, but eminently doable. AND I believe from of all of the tracts on civil defense that I have been able to glean from Russia and China that they WILL be doing that and maybe on a larger scale than I have suggested here.
We could be looking up from our grimy hovels some day and see some spic-and-span paratroops coming down on top of us. And they would not be our fellow countrymen.
JJF, I hate to disallusion you, but diesel goes “bad” at least as fast as gasoline does.
MM:
This isn’t run by some gov’t, but it is still interesting. I don’t know anything about them, just stumbled across it one day and bookmarked it.
One thing, besides skills, that I think would be highly valuable in a trade (and not too expensive to stock) would be some cast iron cookware. I understand, though, that there is a shortage - esp. of the dutch ovens…must be a lot of people thinking along the same line! I own several pieces of lodge logic (preseasoned) and they are the best…much better than the expensive calphalon that i used to own!
disillusion, it seems, is the word I wanted.
preppiechick at 10:50-Interesting about “the ark up north”, too bad he was harrassed for being an eccentric (if that is all of the story). Unfortunately, any such community would need weaponry, that is the nature of the beast that we are confronted with.
I already have my more than several pieces of cookware preseasoned and ready to go, dutch oven and all. : )
Hot food is necessary for any sustained level of well-being, especially in the winter.
preppiechick at 10:50-Interesting about “the ark up north”, too bad he was harrassed for being an eccentric (if that is all of the story). Unfortunately, any such community would need weaponry, that is the nature of the beast that we are confronted with.
I already have my more than several pieces of cookware preseasoned and ready to go, dutch oven and all. : )
Hot food is necessary for any sustained level of well-being, especially in the winter.
Medical Maven – at 23:37 Nature “in the raw” doesn’t care as much about saving “skill sets” as she does in saving “genes” chock-full of stamina, endurance, strength, guile, and sheer animal exuberance, (with a little intelligence thrown in for good measure, but not so much as to confuse the host).
If this is so, then why do you think Nature lets loose with pandemics that winnow these most fit of people? Those at highest risk for infection and death are exactly those you described as possessing genes MT wants to propagate. Your statement, while in another context sensible, seems to directly contradict pandemic wisdom. Whaddya think?
Diesel engines can be converted to run on plant oils (restaurant fryer oil, for example). If food oil has gone rancid, it still will burn, won’t it?
Are there any steam engines anymore? It will be important to work metal, for tools and security and to change electrically-run devices/tools so they can be used with other forms of power. (I’m thinking of sewing machines, bench grinders, stamping machines, and ?) Having a stock of metal rods, bars, and sheets in brass, aluminum, iron, (and more?) would help.
Edna Mode at 12:58-It is all a numbers game. Even though the young are disproportionately afflicted with the current form of bird flu some subset of that group will survive. And the most vigorous of that subset (such as I described above) will be the ones that will be able to carry on through a prolonged period of unrelenting mental and physical stress. And the vast majority of us “oldies”, (past fifty years of age), will be “shed” as autumn leaves in the Fall.
Why do you think that in prehistoric times (or even later) that most did not live to what we consider “middle age” now? And think of descriptions and photos that you have seen of populations in hardscrabble areas of the Third World. Those people appear to be seventy to seventy-five years of age, but yet are only in their fifties.
Nature “in the raw” only cares to get you (as a species) a little past the age in which you can generate young and get those young to at least an age of semi-independence. Only the superimposition of advanced culture can generate and maintain the numbers and variety of older people and also disabled people.
My first goal is to live long enough to see what the trend of humanity will be and to get the younger members of my family secured and off on whatever new paths are necessary.
My second goal is to long survive a severe pandemic, but I must admit my hopes are not high.
I was outdoors working and thought of one of my favorite quotes from Lucretius. It applies to my first, more realistic goal above.
“Our lives we borrow from each other…. And men, like runners, pass along the torch of life.”
I inadvertently discovered, while casting about for potentially useful objects and practices in the face of the coming stuff, that there are many large groups of people (well, mostly anthropologists, if would appear) who study and compete in “primitive skills”. They hold festivals or meets all around the country. If you google Primitive Skills you will find them and they happily share techniques. If things get as dire as some believe, this would be a vital group to contact.
I have been reading this thread and i’m shaking my head back and forth, no its not going to be this bad. I’ve developed a healthy respect for all of you here. I know its gonna get bad, I have prepped water food, power soources, meds, entertainment, educational stuff…yet I can’t grasp that its gonna get to the point that the survivors will all have to start from scratch. Unless we have mad bombers going around and blowing things up, setting things on fire…most businesses/factories are going to be left standing.
There will be people left, these people will rebuild, some I believe will be more then capable of starting business back up, fuel, power, medicine, food will be in production as soon as possible afterwards. Those that survive will be more then willing to work to get life as back to normal as possible.
Yes The economy will take a major dive, things are going to suck for quite awhile. So what am I missing that you are all seeing, am I way to optimistic, have I still not grasped the bottom line.
Be kind, but educate me if you can please
2beans – at 23:10
And one should not forget the SCAdians, they who dress in medievel garb and hold Reneissance fairs. Many SCAdians are well versed in ‘primitive’ skills and arts like archery, metal forging, weaving, and food processing…
Home based business might be useful to learn about now. I was thinking locksmiths might be in demand.
KimT – at 18:55
OK, since I don’t see anyone else answering, I’ll take a stab at it. Sure it is highly unlikely that the world as we know it will come to an end when the pandemic happens. Most of us think that it is just as unlikely that nothing will happen. That’s why we’re here.
In between those extremes, there is a wide range of possibilities. Which will it be? I don’t know and I’m pretty sure that you don’t either.
So, which of the possibilities to you prepare for? Go for the worst that you can imagine. You won’t be disappointed if/when it isn’t that bad. If you are prepared to survive TEOTWAWKI, anything else is an inconvenience.
Or the short version: Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Maybe someone else will chime in with words more eloquent than mine, but hey, I tried. :)
Kim,
I agree,it`s going to be bad, but not going to throw us back to the Middle Ages. Maybe just back to 1900.
Some people who know how to will survive. And, even if all the engineers,scientists, medicos, etc were wiped out, their books would still be avaiable.
KimT at 18:55-Don’t think of this as just a local or nationwide problem, but as a global problem. And imagine the world as one single human being, everything for him is “just-in-time”, and the complexity and interdependence of all of his processes are enormous. The oxygen he needs is just-in-time, the energy he needs for vital functions is just-in-time, etc. This man has lived a hard life and his arteries have hardened and filled with plaque.
One day something happens that has never happened before in his long and fruitful life, an extraordinary event, yet very small event. A piece of plaque dislodges and occludes a critical artery in his brain, the part of the brain that controls his breathing. If that clot is not dissolved within a very short period of time and allow oxygen to resume its flow to that part of the brain, the man will stop breathing because the cells in that part of his brain will begin to die. And then cells will begin to die elsewhere, and death will radiate out and inflammatory chemicals will be released that will cause even more damage.
Very shortly that man as he was will cease to exist. For a short period of time he will seem to look much as he was. And some other men may try to resusitate him and may even try to dissolve the clot, but the damage will have already been done. All of the complex and interlocking processes and oxygen and energy flows have been disrupted, and they can not be restarted. That man is dead. And that is what happens to very advanced cultures when all of the vital flows of materials and men are stopped for even a relatively short period of time.
I can sew just about anything. People have to be clothed, right?
And I can sew by hand, if I have to. Treadle machines just might come back into vogue.
I can knit and crochet, too, but I’m not very good nor very quick at that.
and pastry and chocolate!! we would need bakers. I’ll volunteer for that. Can’t guarentee how much would be left for the public when I was done. Anybody like to join me?
The first thing that will happen is that cities and towns will shrink so that human to human communication and trade is easier. Some towns will be abandoned all together. There is evidence for this happening in the 650′s and later after the plague killed large chunks of population.
Infrastucture will be patched up by people like me - engineers who are good at fixing things. The abandoned towns will be recycled - ie looted/ destroyed to provide raw materials.
We will carry on, same as before. there will be a stack of land/real estate going very very cheap. The real currency after the pandemic will be skills and capabilities. If you are in a town with a diesel generator and one diesel mechanic - who is now the most important person in town? Expect laws to try and keep people in essential jobs without paying them what they are now worth.
And a P.S. Where do you think the nursery rhyme phrase “Jacks as good as his master” comes from? Money and position aren’t going to be worth much after a pandemic.
anon at 20:50-Sounds plausible, but still not, even remotely, the same civilization. Being the resident “doom and gloomer” I would also add that geopolitically there could be trouble if other nations had prepared better than your own for the pandemic. There would be no more Pax Americana. Maybe the oceans for a time would protect the U. S. But for Europe and Asia it would be back to the bad old days. Armies, albeit much smaller, would again be on the march.
ok, thank you for the feedback, I am preparing for the what I think will be my worst, what I can imagine anyway. And it looks pretty bad. I’ve concentrated on the aspect of surviving through it not what comes after, which I guess is what this thread is all about.
Ok, now I ned to think about what skills I have to offer onb the otherside.
Thanks
Kim
Kim T 18:55 Anonmymous 20:52
I agree with your view points. People will be alive and we are a resilient crew. So what are the skills we need? Should I go take a class for a diesel mechanics. Texas Rose can sew but with all the “dead” won’t there by a lot of clothes, cars, furniture, pots, pans, especially in America with our over consumption.
How can commerce begin? Listen to me, thinking alike the American I am…is commerce the economic engine to drive us back to a balance or manufacturing, services of all types king?
Are all economic models destroyed? The infrastructure should be in place, as stated, will the products they produce prove necessary? Is there any standard of transcation? or will barter rule?
Found an old southern cookbook today that details how to make all kinds of booze.Maybe thats what I’ll do.Oh and milk maid if the cows and goats live.
Or start a soy dairy…
Professional scroungers. Being able to sort and ship supplies.
well, not ship but sort.
There will be a HUGE market for washing machines that work if there isn’t electricity. With wringers that can handle a towel or pair of overalls. Going back to that hand washing, plunging in a bucket, hand wringing stuff IS stoneage… even for a month. Whoever figures that out, at beans and rice wages, will be the next JP Morgan.
It will be the perfect storm, the perfect stage set, for a one world rule. If this turns out like the drift of this thread. Reason tells me it won’t happen. We go forward, not backward, as a civilized world. Reason and reality sometimes collide.
“Man’s unique reward, however, is that while animals survive by adjusting themselves to their background, man survives by adjusting his background to himself.” Ayn Rand
The Other Side…
Quite a topic,…assuming, yet daring. I’ve been reading FluWiki for exactly one year now, and I think it’s time I said “Thanks.”
If I and my family make it to the “other side” intact, I do owe it to many of you here. (And I do mean to make it -intact.) I haven’t contributed in many, many months, but I do try to check in at least once a week. I know that many of the old-timers are probably doing the same. We’ve been down the adjustment road, we’ve been through the depression and panic. We’re prepared as best we can be, and we’re ready as we can get. And we don’t mean “bring it on”.
I’ve loved the jokes and daily humor. The fantastic quotations that we’ve all forgotten about -that remind us what being human is all about. I found out the good that the internet can bring- and it made a “doubting Thomas” into a believer.
Some of these people are still currently posting and some have faded into the archives, but these are my Saints in this crusade. Take Notice….Number One: The Reveres, (keep doing it) but remember that we think both sides are crooks. Number Two: The Mods, God bless You. Thanks for giving up so much to listen to us.
And everyone else, in a somewhat alpabetical order- don’t hold me to it… Anon 22 (very wise person-i know you’re a Pharmacist), All the Moms, (they speak from their heart), Bill, not enough can be said about you. You make us laugh, you make us think, you work tirelessly. Thank you so much. Bruce, The Many, Many Cats,(you know who you are), Eccles, Grace, Hillbilly, Lugon, MaMa (the One and Only), Maven, Monotreme, NS1, Niman(THANKS SO MUCH!), Path, and Urdar. There are so many others- I’m only thinking off the top of my head so excuse me if I’ve forgotten you.
OH MY GOD!- I did forget someone very special…TOM-DVM… My Canadian, Veterianarian of choice…the voice of reason in any storm, The Man. Tomas, thank you for contributing nearly every single day. You will be a hero to me always. And to your readers. You will never never know how many you have saved. But you are my hero, and thank you from the bottom of my heart.(thanks to your dear wife also).
At least we won’t have to reinvent the wheel.
I call dibs on the US Patent archive and Library of Congress.
Been thinking about this. Have a headache.
Anyhow, one person we`ll really need is a good historian. Well, maybe not for the survivors, but for the future generations.
Does anyone volunteer to engrave the Wikie in a BIG stone slab?
If I come out the other end, I think that an old tired nurse will be useful. Don`t think that calling the rotor to carry away the latest heart attack victim down to cath lab will still be a choice, so those of us who remember when will find a spot.
Very Morbid… our ancestors didn’t think this way, at least mine didn’t. I’ll volunteer to be an historian. No problem, i started a long time ago. I Warned could be engraved on my tombstone but I know it won’t be necessary.
For most of the world it will be business as usual surely - I would have thought that for most places other than the most affluent countries their lifestyle is so very basic and so very close to the medieval model that after the initial grieving and clearup stuff they will very soon be back to normal. It is only us people who take our culture as pre-packed that will suffer. If the worst came to the worst what is left of the affluent countries’ populations might empty very quickly as people go in search of other people who know how to survive and go and join their villages if they let us.
Planning to recover is the first step to recovery. It’s part of my preps. I see a world full of recycling. We will have a lot of leftover “stuff”. If you know how to make useful stuff out of the leftover useless stuff, you will thrive.
P.S. And anyone who knows how to make that RWFK will be in great demand!
As a species human beings are but a blink of the eye in the history of Earth. We make big assumptions and believe that the planet is here to sustain us - it is not and will carry on regardless of whether we exist or not. Civilisations fall and so will the human race. If viruses don’t get us first, global warming most certainly will, possibly in the life time of many of us.
Considering the fragile nature of our just in time inventories, and considering that international commerce will likely grind to a halt, we may all find ourselves just one growing season away from starvation. After the pandemic has passed and your preps are running low, will you be able to return to the grocery stores and get oranges from Australia, blueberries from Brazil, coffee from Columbia, pineapple from Hawaii, or bananas from Ecuador? Will you still be able to get potatoes from Idaho, beans from Minnesota, or beef from Nebraska?
Regardless of the CFR, if 30% of the global population gets the flu, there are sure to be numerous breaks in the supply chains of every grocery store. Farmer, field hand, migrant laborer, packer, shipper, distributor, truck driver, warehouser, retail clerk, cashier… They will be sick at the same rate as everyone else. Who will replace them when they fall ill or if they fail to report to work or are obliged to remain home to care for family members?
And then there are the folks who mine the coal, and load the railroad cars, and drive the coal trains to the power plants in central Wyoming. And there are people who operate the power plants and maintain an enormous power grid and perform local service so we can have water and electricity for nearly every modern activity you can name—agricultural, medical, industrial, commercial, educational, and domestic. (And you can’t run refineries without electricity and people, much less distribute the petroleum and natural gas.)
There are a lot of gaps here that I know you bright Flu Wikie folks can fill in for yourselves, but do you see where my imagination is leading me? Without the human resources to keep all of these systems operational, we will find ourselves living in early 19th century conditions in no time at all. Sure, we are all preparing to endure a pandemic for a certain period of time, but how long will it take society to recover to early 20th century conditions when we finally get to the other side? I have no way of knowing, and if we are hit with a severe pandemic that really does last for more than a year, those without the resources for subsistence farming or gardening will find themselves just one growing season away from starvation.
sorry to disagree on your mideavel fantasys.. I do think its a respectable skill to know how stuff works. Grown ups should be able to fix their electricity, their plumbing, machines and food. But here on the forum is a number of mistakingly analyces of modern societity, Let me try to pick the scenariaos apart:
Shops that sells us the things we use: mayby as much as 50 % of the wares in a typical supermarket is non essentials like toys, cosmetics, snacks clothes etc. No supermarkets will use 100% of thir resources to transport this types of goods in a emergency, they will prioitice the food, the medicins etc. And may do this with half the driwers, half the gasolines and and half the cars, ships, trains etc.
Manpower: even if 40 −50 % is sick, at home, dead etc it will not stop the world. It will make hard periods, but there is a number of buffers that will kick in. The pensioners, the unemployd, and other skilled people from other non essential buffer buisnises. Remember that only a small percentage og work force do work that is directly linked to food and other essential production. Most industriees deals with “nonsens” like sales, entertainment, gadgets, the movement of information etc. I realise that most firms have the last year rationaliced very hard, leaving no room for many sick, disturbencec etc, but still this rationalisation is very automated and can be reversed if not big proffit is the number one goal for the buisniss.
this lead me ower to the other issue, Energy: we know there is a lack of energy alllready, but this is based on a hughe spill of it. most electricity is used for electronicks, a LOT og light, and heathing. This will be dealt with by using rationing, its done in most poorer countries arond the world, and ity works like this, your area will have some elect. two times a day, in this period you will use it wisely, not waste it on playstation of that big plasma screen.. with this tactic a limited reserver of coal, gas, hudro etc will last a very long time. And we will have to trust the skills of the workers to deal with this by simple coomon sence.
Parts.. Even if a key part in a powersation etc is produced by “Very Monopoliced Strange firm in Ullan Btaor” that doenst mean it has to be that way, all metal parts are made in mills and casting machines, this machines exits all over the world, they do not get sick and they are VERY solid. So anyone with the skills and this production machines may produce ANY part needed if thei are allowed to due to patent, buroucracry and profit limitations. Same goes for electronic parts.
Food production /farming: You dont need a skilled workforce for this, Only the farmer him self and the vetrinarians and the mechanicks is specialaly skilled. All the rest of the work may be done by anyone. Even desperate houeswives are able to deliver births, harvest the corn etc. The farmers are extremly flexible in their workforce, Thei are used to seson workers, And are allready heavy automated in the western world, and in the poorer world the work force are unlimited… And yes any vegtable oils or alcholhol may be used to run the machines with simple changes.
Kowledge: We live in a information owerflow soceity, surly the essential knowlegde is well kept on both paper and files. And will not vaporice by a plague.
All this is very demanding changes that everybody will have to work hard with, and it will take time to adjust, but it has been done many times before in the human history, and will be done again. Our task must be to take care of our self with our resources, since no one is going to stand in line to help you with anything.
Now for a bit of optimism, even though I feel less and less optimistic all the time. 30% infection means 70% not infected. Say another 20% are caring for the 30%, that still means 50% are out there and okay. Even if that happens all at once, I don’t think for one minute that the world will stop revolving. We will compensate. But it will slow down and it will be hard. We are so used to fast food, fast cars, fast money, and everthing at the speed of light that we have forgotten how to wait. Waiting is, to borrow a line from Heinlin (did I spell his name right? it’s getting toooo late). We all are going to need a good healthy dose of patience on the other side.
Urdar Norway and Reader: You are both quite optimistic. That is fine. I, too, am essentially an optimistic person, but I do fear the worst; therefore, I have prepared for the worst. Have you read the economic impact by The World Bank and the U.S. Congressional Budget Office? Do you know what these two conservative entities envision for the global economy? Their views of the future are not at all optimistic.
I do not envision a Hollywood-style post-apocalyptic society, but neither do I envision that the pandemic will be free of serious disruptions in supply chains, utilities, and public services. Am I prepared to live in early 19th century conditions for a while? Yes. Do I want to? No, but that is hardly the issue. As I see it, the only issue is adequate preparation for a worst case scenario, sort of like buying life insurance.
Urdar, I love your posts, and you bolster my spirits, but you are describing “Vulcans” picking up the pieces after a pandemic. Why did the Dark Ages last so long? (Centuries!) Those times are like a black hole with no light emitting from them. “Humans”, when knocked off of their setpoint and ranked out of the familiar are as likely as not to become irrational and destructive.
You neglected the “friction” component in your analysis.
Something I havent seen discussed much is the impact if a wide swath of mammal species are also hit hard. Loss of cats would leave a niche wide open for rats (plague carriers?). Loss of rats would mean that a lot of birds, snakes, etc. would starve. Loss of cows, pigs, horses, goats, dogs would mean even worse food shortages, and maybe no way to recover livestock farming.
I have the blackest thumb in the world - I seriously doubt that Im going to be able to feed my family solely from the garden; and for the moment, Im planning on using the horses for transportation when the gas runs out.
What I am afraid of is species die off. Humans can take care of themselves, know what is happening, take some measures with foresight. I had finches, decades of finch families,then last year none. This year none. Same hospitable area. I asked at the enviormental center what had caused this complete destruction of this colony. First of all West Nile has decimated a lot of species, but the finches had an eye infection which obscured their sight, and it was contageous. It came up from the couthern states, and the birds starved as they couldn’t see. It will be a silent world. I only hear the caw of crows and a few other birds. I don’t get the excited chatter and bird song that used to greet me when I stepped outside.
I’m torn, Like you I have prepared and continue to do so, Its become addictive. I will take the advice here and prepare for the worst and hope for the best. The difference between the middle ages and now is our knowledge level, our expectations. We know when we walk in a room that we flip on a switch and there are lights that burn brightly from the ceiling, that heat is generated from magical devises, that we turn the faucet and semi-clean water comes out.
I may not know how it all works but I know they have excisted and will search out that information again. As will others. And many that will survive will be able to teach us what to do,(Eccles?) the data will be available unless something else comes at us at the same time and manages to wipe out all of our archives of data and more of us. That would suck big time!
Yes I am optimistic,or I attempt to be(we will need optimists and dreamers too) we will re-learn how to do things, patients as mentioned above will be needed, things will move at a much slower pace, I’m still planning on investing in a wood burner, for heat and cooking, I have my cast iron seasoned pans, long cooking utensils.
How long after power…is off before the water in our lakes and rivers will become cleaner and more usable?
AVanarts
KimT-Water in lakes and rivers will be highly variable in regards to sewage and chemical pollution. But there will always be cryptosporidium. See pwag’s thread on water filtering.
AVanarts. I’m no expert on diesel fuel, but I’ve read several places that diesel has at least a ten year shelf life.
Could you please cite a reference stating otherwise. Diesel fuel plays a significant role in my preps.
tks.
11:23 was me…sorry
I have diesel and gasoline tanks here on the farm. My fuel company told me that gasoline starts to degrade after 6 months, but that diesel has additives so it should last at least 2–3 years.
The virus arrives, 1.7bn wiped out in the first year, millions begin to die in the developing world from starvation and disease, the west rallies for a while but as systems and the basic structures of society begin to break down, diseases not seen for hundreds of years start to claim lives in tens of thousands, a cholera epidemic spreads, drinking water becomes contaminated, there is a massive die-off in livestock and farming crumbles, civil unrest adds to the mayhem and health systems descend into chaos, electricity is rationed at first and then stops altogether, and then the second wave hits …..
Medical Maven: yes I did leave out social safty issues. There is to hughe differnce between my part of the world and the part where the majority on this forum is, for my to have much knowlegde about it. But I would like to add on the starvation scenario that most grain and corn is used for animal food. this is a hughe buffer for soceitity, and maybe even one that the virus will do all by it self. Less livestock means more food for people.
“AVanarts. I’m no expert on diesel fuel, but I’ve read several places that diesel has at least a ten year shelf life.
Could you please cite a reference stating otherwise. Diesel fuel plays a significant role in my preps.
tks. “
I’d have to do some looking to find it in writing, but what I know right now comes from truck drivers and farmers who use diesel continuously. It can last several years if the right additives are used, but can actually grow microorganisms that will gum up the engine if not properly filtered out. This is one reason diesel pumps often have a filter in line before the fuel is even pumped into a truck. And speaking of gum, diesel tends to react to form unwanted compounds the same way that gasoline does and will actually gell if given enough time.
I know one guy who stores clear Kerosene for his emergency generator since it will work in a diesel engine and does last just about forever. Trying to find clear Kerosene without dyes or additives at a decent price these days is difficult though.
I think Pri-D is the additive that people have been recommending for diesel that is to be stored.
Urdar-Norge – at 14:06
Very interesting comment. Its like the difference between how much corn is eaten here in the US compared to Europe that uses it primarily as stock feed.
Also, wasn’t that many decades ago that rice was only consumed here in the deep south in the US while it was a staple in Europe and Asia long beforehand.
Here are some Diesel Fuel FAQ’s. Scroll down to “How long can I store diesel fuel?”
EXXON says 6 months to one year unless you use additives and filters.
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