My husband is a chemist. I have seen on several threads people asking questions for a “chemist.” He said to start a question thread, and he will do the best he can to answer questions. Please, understand he is very busy. However, he will do his best to answer questions the best he can and as fast as he can! I hope this helps y’all!
He works in the petrochemical industry. Most of his work is in this field. So, it will not relate to medical or pharmaceutical type chemistry questions. He does do work with waster water treatment, so probably can help with questions pertaining to water and products for water.
I’m a chemist, working mostly in field trace analysis in the environmental field, and will follow the thread and help answer questions as well.
I suspect there are other chemists out there as well who will jump in, so feel free to ask anything.
Minnnesota_scientist – at 19:06
Thanks Minnnesota_scientist!
Minnesota_scientist, what part of the great gopher state are you from? My wife and I grew up in St.Cloud. We are in Houston TX now. We miss the winters.
Take care,
Worldman
Water is always a big issue. many discussion have been held on the Kiddy Pools with vinyl inserts for drinking water. We have heard that their is a chemical in the vinyl that could cause problems. If this is the case could they be filter out or do we just not use that water for drinking???
I’m in the north metro, but lived in Collegeville for a while, and am looking forward to making my kids walk to school in February at 40 below not counting windchill!
The kiddie pools are usually made of polyvinyl chloride, and have other chemicals added to keep them flexible. (ethylene dichloride, phthalates, and lead as a stabilizer)
Short answer for Anon_451 - Don’t use it for drinking water. The chemicals aren’t good for you.
Honest answer for Anon_451 - it probably won’t hurt you immediately, but a new article coming out in the October Environmental Perspectives is rumored to discuss bio-accumulation of pthalates - SO DON’T!
For emergency use, you can filter the water through an activated carbon filter, but you won’t know when the filter is saturated and stops working - SO DON’T!
Lining that pool with food grade polyethylene sheeting might help, but if you’re reading the wiki, you’ve got time to look for a better solution. Blue, food grade barrels.
Bathing wouldn’t be a problem.
Recently, the pools in my area have changed from using clorine to using a sort of salt ph balanced type filtering system. Is this salt system as effective in killing flu virus as clorine?
The salt systems use essentially the same system as the MSR MIOX. Salt separates into chlorine and sodium when hit with electricity. The free chlorine level (free chlorine means it’s available to disinfect)in a properly run salt treated pool is the same as in a traditional chlorinated pool.
Thanks.
There was someone in another thread who made a type of solar water heater using pvc pipe with a screw-on cap on one end and a ball valve on the other end, and painted the pipe flat black. Would something like this have problems (structural, with chemicals leaching out, or anything else you could think of)? Would cpvc pipe (or some other type of pipe) work better? Thanks!
Another question, would swimming pool water be safe to use for drinking water after filtration and chlorination? I have over 17,00 gallons of water in my pool, half of the water is replaced each year with treated city tap water (high quality). I use only sodium hypochlorite (stabilized, HTH); muriatic acid and baking soda to adjust pH; and it has pretty constant level of cyanuric acid (stabilizer). Thanks again!
Pool water first. Here’s the advantages: It’s a supply of water that you control, and it’s nearby. There’s little additional cost to prepare to use it as a drinking water supply. It’s unlikely to be contaminated with gas, oil, pesticides, or the other hazards present in any urban, suburban, or even rural open water.
Here’s some considerations: Cyanuric acid is reportedly safe at low levels (100ppm, which is a normal pool treatment range), and passes through humans unchanged. Muriatic acid is the same as hydrochloric acid, and is both diluted and neutralized by the baking soda. I’d be concerned about any stabilizing agents added to the (HTH) High Test Hypochlorite.
Here’s a couple of negatives: Some species of algae can create neurotoxins under certain conditions, and that filtering and chlorination may not affect them. If your pool has an algae problem, or you’ve had to ‘shock’ it to eliminate an algae bloom, the toxins may remain.
I’d also be concerned about chloramines, created as the chlorine does it’s job neutralizing the organics. Depending on conditions, they may become concentrated as water evaporates and you top off your pool. Sodium levels, and dissolved minerals, may also be concentrated.
Finally, an open pool is a duckpond with cement sides. Keeping the chlorine and pH balanced during SIP may be low on your list, which may reduce the safety of your drinking water supply.
A lot of this is going to be a trade-off between hazards. Do you travel a mile, wait in line with other people, and fill food-grade buckets from a National Guard water tank? Drink from a nearby stream? Rainwater? Swimming pool? The EPA offers a “Manual of Individual Water Supply” that does a good job of covering the basics.
About the hot water. CPVC is the recommended choice for hot water systems, with a maximum temperature rating (depending on the manufacturer) of 180 to 200 F. Copper, with lead-free solder is better, but more expensive. PCV tends to leach chemicals, which makes the plastic brittle. If you’re not drinking the water, it’s a functional shortcut.
As my wife stated, I stay extremely busy. Huge responsibility at work..on one of those type of jobs that is 8 days a week 30 hours a day….lol
By the way Minnesota Scientist….what is your alumini?
And Worldman….I am in Houston as well. Born in the south, and still live here. However, beautiful county in Minnesota but just too darned cold for me. Give me the heat……
First, as stated above by Minnesota Scientist, some of the kiddie pools still have some lead components in them However, those manufactured in the US do not due to the tight constraints placed on the industry with the possibility of lead poisoning to children. Look at your kiddie pool label and see where it is made. If in the US you are okay from the lead standpoint.
The pthalates are introduced into the pool materials matrix at very low levels and are not very water soluble or miscible. That is why you can see a bioaccumulation of these with prolonged usage. Basically, if introduced into the human body they will be retained in the kidney and liver and will not move very readily into the urine. (This brings up another point…..don’t pee in the pool). Although the pthalates are not very water soluble or miscible does not mean they will not get into the water. The charcoal filtration will take care of the majority of your concerns here as long as the charcoal has available surface area for the filtration to occur. The biggest concern however, is bacteria. The bacteria can also begin to plug up the effective surface area for effective filtration. Once this is impacted it doesn’t matter what has passed through the filter. If the filter surface area is not available the filter is what would be considered spent and will be ineffective in filtering anything. Therefore, keep the bacteria at a minimum as well.
The “salt” that is probably being used in Prepmaniacs municipal system is what is commonly known as Chloramine. The chloramines do not render as much “killing” efficiency as straight chlorine, but it does render other benefits, that is actually better in some water systems. The “kill” efficiency must be maintained regardless of whether your city water system uses chlorine, chloramines, Chlorine Dioxide or some other chemistry to control the growth of bacteria in the water system.
The basic reactions are the same, whether the water system is using straight chlorine, Chloramines or any other chlorine contributing chemistry. Simple chemistry lesson:
Chlorine (Cl2) will react in water (H2O - meaning two parts of Hydrogen and one part of Oxygen) to yield HCl (Hydrochloric Acid) and HOCl (Hypochlorus Acid). The actual bacteria killing occurs with the Hypochlorus Acid. The balance between the amount of HCl and HOCl that is made is entirely pH dependent. (The HCl is also known as Muriatic Acid.) The higher the pH, the more the equilibrium shifts to the HOCl. However, you do not want to drive the pH to high either or you will begin having other reactions that will then yield the HOCl ineffective. It is for this reason to make things simple for the layman, swimming pools generally operate in the pH ranges of 6.8 to 7.5 pH. This is also the most effective ranges for the HOCl. Many municipalities actually will operate their water systems in the pH range of approximately 9 pH. There are other reasons behind this though, which includes reducing the corrosion rate of the carbon steel piping in many water systems. If the carbon steel is introduced to pH ranges low enough, the iron in the carbon steel can actually solubulize. When introduced into regions that the pH is brought up again, the iron can actually precipitate back out of the water and form what we call barnacles, which can impede flow. These barnacles are also areas where bacteria love to collect and grow.
In regards for Kim, the 17000 gallons of high quality city tap water can go to poor quality in a very short time period. The reason for this is the life of the chlorine in the water coming in from the city is very short term. This is why you add the Sodium Hypochlorite in the pool The Sodium Hypochlorite is a “Chlorine Salt”. One characteristic of salt is they undergo what is know as dissociation in an electrolytic solution One of the best electrolytes is WATER. When the Sodium Hypochlorite dissociates it forms Sodium Ions and the Hypochlorus Acid (discussed earlier). For proper pool maintenance you then have to periodically check your chlorine level. The pool test kits are set up to measure both free and total chlorine. What you want to do is make sure that you are measuring the free chlorine. The difference is the timing at which you read the test. For reading the free chlorine the reading must be almost immediate after you have added your indicator solution. Total chlorine will take approximately 30 seconds to 1 minute to develop in the color tube you use. This applies whether you are maintaining the pool for pleasure or as a backup water supply.
Also in response to Kim’s question on the PVC painted black…..no problem, as long as the paint is not lead based. This again is not a problem in the US because the lay person cannot purchase lead based paints legally. In regards to another pipe material working better than the PVC it depends upon your definition of “better”. In terms of heat transfer (ie warm weather transfer of heat through pipe to water or back) the better piping material would be carbon steel. In talking about retaining the heat in the water, particularly in cold weather, the PVC would actually work better. This is because although the heating up phase would be longer to reach an equilibrium state once equilibrium is obtained and there is adequate heat on the inside of this pipe, the heat transfer back out of the pipe would also be slower. Basically, the steel pipe is a better thermal conductor than the PVC and thus the heating up phase would be quicker. Transversely however, the carbon steel piping would give up the stored heat fast to its outside environment simply due to its heat transfer efficiency.
I hope all of this makes sense, as I am tired and ready to go to bed. Goodnight.
Minnesota_scientist and DoWahDiddy, THANK YOU so much for your prompt, informative answers. Your help here is very much appreciated!
I posted this question on a thread a few months ago but would love to hear what a chemist has to say about it: we purchased storage containers that were originally used for hi-chlon (which I have found out is “a white granular compound containing as the principal ingredient, more than 70% calcium hypochlorite Ca(ClO)2″)-- can these containers be used for food or drinking water storage if they have been washed out? The containers have a “do not reuse” sticker on them, but the chemical is used to disinfect pools, so I wonder if the sticker is just there to discourage people from using the containers to store something that would react dangerously with the chemical. Any thoughts? Thanks.
Some web sites that discuss rainwater harvesting caution against using water that has drained from a roof of asphalt or composition shingles even after disinfecting due to the possible presence of heavy metals or organics. What’s your take on that?
When we get a thunderstorm the water gushes from the roof valley and is clear. The water that comes off during a gentle rain is tinted yellow.
I ditto what Kim – at 06:44 said — it’s GREAT to have you guys around!
Mari, I’m glad you threw in the question about the rain collection on asphalt roofs for whomever had asked that……we need to hunt ‘em down & make certain they see this thread!
You’ve been discussing pool water & the flexible kiddie pools. I’m the queen of overkill when I try to do something, so keep that in mind……..We have a Berkfield water filter with ceramic filters. You could literally take ditch water & run it through those filters & drink it safely, but I don’t plan to do that.
We live in a condo, with very little ‘yard’ out back so I can’t store rain barrels or barrels of any kind for that matter. I bought an inflatable 8′ pool to fill with water & the Shock kit at WalMart that seemed to be the top of the line kit and I bought an extra filter. We’re not supposed to have that either, but then you just gotta break the rules sometimes if it’s an emergency. I also have water stored in canning jars that would be “Berkeyed”, as well as bottled water, which I realize has an expiration date, but wouldn’t need filtering before drinking.
My plan, if we have to set it up, is to filter water first through a coffee filter to remove any debris, then clorinate it and let it sit (I know I could use a teaspoon of hydrogen peroxide to kill the chlorine taste but really no need at this point), then filter through a bucket filled with charcoal to remove chlorine & any other chemicals, then into a ‘home-made’ Berkey using foodgrade plastic buckets & a set of the Berkey ceramic filters. Then I feel like I’d have water worthy of dishwashing & sponge-bathing and, after another filtering, water for drinking/cooking.
For actual consumption, that same water would then be filtered through my ‘real’ Berkey where it could sit on the counter & be used from the container there for cooking, drinking, etc.
I understand the pool would shed chemicals into the water and that charcoal could remove most of that. How much charcoal should I use to adequately filter out chemicals before they reach my Berkey filters so I don’t contaminate the filters? Should I fill up a 5 gallon bucket?? or half a bucket or 2″?? I plan on getting the charcoal from WalMart I guess, unless someone knows of a better supplier.
Welcome Chemists!!! You are a much needed resource. I was in on the original conversation on kiddie pools, and my non scientist said don’t drink the water also. So my kiddie pool will be for bathing and flushing. You guys/gals will be needed a lot.
Q 1. If I store treated suburban/city water in food grade aquatanks (flexible vinyl that the mfg says is made to store water in, the general advice is not to add anymore chlorine, other than maybe a tiny bit to rinse out the container before use. At what length of time (weeks) would I neet to add more chlorine and filter it. Assume water is in unheated un airconditioned garage. I assume summer months would be sooner than winter months.
Q 2. I stored water in food grade liners inside non food grade plastic barrells. After 3 months the water had a few little transparent floaties on them. Very minscule and small quantity. I read that these are harmles. Any comments.
Thanks again
delphina – at 06:55
The containers have a “do not reuse” sticker on them… In the famous words of Bill Engvall….Here’s your sign….Just kidding. The reason for the do not reuse is the Calcium Hypochlorite that may be embedded in the container will leach out into the water phase. Although you may not have bacteria growing, you also do not want an overabundance of the free chlorine that could be released into the water. Although a significant amount of washing on the container would eventually remove all of the Calcium Hypochlorite, why take the chance on the consumption of the water unless you test each container full of water first.
Mari – at 08:40 In rainwater harvesting, remember that during the dry spells the roof is a collection area for dust that naturally will occur in the environment. With a light rain the dust, pollen, bird “poop” etc is going to wash off first. That is why you are seeing the yellow tinted water. In a more heavy downpour this is washed off. Once washed off the water will be or should be clear.
In regards to using the water from an asphalt or composite roofing you have to look at a couple of factors. (1) Asphalt is derived from the “bottom of the barrel” as it is referred to in refining. This is the highest molecular weight components from the crude oil processing. In this there will also be a concentration of the heavy metals, PONA’ (Polynuclear Aromatics), Cresolates, and Asphaltenes. None of these are very water soluble, otherwise your roof would dissolve over a short period of time. However, those that have come out of the matrix with wear and tear on the roofing will flow with the water, just like the dust particles etc. Again, a good reason not to use the first bit of water that runs off. However, the amount that may get into the water with a heavier downpour will probably be so miniscule that it would really do no harm to you unless that was the only water you drank over several years. If this is the case, let us know and we will come dig you a well after the first couple of years for a minimum charge. (Just kidding on this too.) Bottom line, the water would be fine as long as you allowed enough water to rinse your roof off. (2) The same would be true with your composite roofing. Don’t drink the first part of the water. In both cases, always disinfect this water to kill off any germs that may still be on the roof or are washed out in the surrounding environment. Basically consider this “washing of the surrounding environment” as a “washing of the contaminants in your air”. Ever wonder why it smells so fresh after a good rainfall. NJ Jeeper – at 14:38 First let me make the comment that if I see water with “floaties” I would first want to flush it. Just kidding here as well. I cannot tell you if the “floaties” are harmless or not without first testing it. When in doubt on anything of this nature, filtration followed by chlorination, will take care of the vast majority of anything harmful that may be growing in your water. However, do not drink the water until you have the chlorine removed or at a level below about 0.2 PPM. If the water is not allowed to sit for anylength of time the chlorine can also be removed by boiling the water.
In response to your 1st question…it depends on the length of time for chlorination to be needed again. This is strictly based on Chlorine demand. In the winter months this demand will be less than in the summer months. The reason for this is during the winter months the bacterias metabolism is significantly decreased, as is every other “life-cycle” function (ie reproduction for bacteria). In the winter months you probably will not need to even test your water but about once every week or two, as long as the container remained closed. During the summer months I would recommend at least two to three times per week. The key here is that you do not want the water to go “septic” on you. As long as the water is not going septic you can really add the chlorine to your water a few hours before your use it. Allow a couple of hours for the bacteria to consume the free chlorine and basically die. Then you can filter this and should be fine, as long as you are “flushing” your floaties. If you don’t want to flush, just filter them out.
http://www.redcross.org/services/disaster/beprepared/water.html Info on treating before storing… & contact info.
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/emergency/water.html This site discusses altitude and climate/locale, cleaning of container (like: “Remember to remove the paper or plastic lid liners before washing the lids”), when and how to treat, & where to store.
I’m-workin-on-it, you mentioned using charcoal from Walmart to filter your water. There IS a difference between activated charcoal and charcoal bricquets you’d use for BBQing. http://science.howstuffworks.com/question209.htm . The activated charcoal can probably be found with the aquarium supplies at Walmart. Chemists, could charcoal bricquets be used in a pinch?
Thanks Kim, yeah, it’s the acquarium stuff I’d use — used to have 5 different acquariums up to 50 gallon size!
Just don’t know how much to use…..wash it till the ‘black’ runoff is clear & it’s ready to use, but wonder how much to use.
DoWahDiddy – at 23:58 - Thanks for the info about asphalt shingle roofs. Once the dust etc is washed off and the water is pouring off the roof, the water doesn’t have much time on the roof to leach anything off even if it could.
Another related question - The water does wash off little white granules that are stuck to the shingles (they come that way). Should I filter those out of the water as soon as I can?
Mari – at 08:48 They should filter out with no problem. The “white” stuff is just aggregate.Kim – at 07:57
Kim – at 07:57 The charcoal briquets cannot be used in the place of activated charcoal. Stick with the activated charcoal. You can filter a significant amount of water through a small amount of charcoal, but the life of the charcoal depends upon what is in the water to be filtered out. You can enhance the life of the charcoal by prefiltering it with a fine pore filter paper or in a pinch with coffee filters first.
What about the chemicals used in the commercial grade Brute trashcans - for storing water? They are listed as NSF 2 Food Contact.
Great thread! Many thanks to the hardworking chemists! A general question - What chemicals would you recommend keeping handy in the event of lengthy SIP? I think most here have bleach, baking soda, and hydrogen peroxide, but perhaps there are others which would be useful to have on hand.
Regarding chlorine concentrations in water, I’ve seen ppm sugestions all over the map. Some say 0.5–1 ppm, I see here 0.2 ppm recommended and in other places I’ve seen 100–200 ppm. I have a test kit that reads down to 0.5 ppm and was planning on testing my water each time I treat it rather than just using the 1/8 teaspoon or x number of drops sugestions. The plan was to shoot for 1 ppm free chlorine after 30 minutes. Is that too much?
Wolf at 12:36 Interesting question. I think I’d start by thinking about what sort of things you might want to accomplish. For medicinal uses, I think I’d consider adding rubbing alcohol for first aid, iodine for disinfection of scrapes and water, alcohol (vodka) for medicinal use (herbal extracts!), vinegar, and caffeine. DoWahDiddy, what else can you think of?
EMTim at 14:08 U of Ohio Extension has a decent handout on water, chlorine, temperature, and holding times. Essentially, by increasing the holding time, (after adding chlorine but before drinking) you can reduce the amount of chlorine. If you’re going to test, then you can control the process much better. It’s online at (wwwdot) ohioline.osu.edu/b795/b795_7.html , but 1ppm is fine.
To solve the problem of water off the roof. Get a closed head barrel and run a pipe out of the opening in the lid. Run this short pipe up into the drain spout. Might want to use an adaptor to get a tighter fit in the drain. When it starts to rain surface tension will keep the first bit of rain water and roof gunk stuck to the sides of the drain pipe. Once the water really starts flowing and the roof is clean the whole pipe is filled and it starts to go into your barrel. Simple and effective. I also saw a device they use in Hawaii where there is no running water on the islands. It is a container that gets filled with the first bit of water then opens a weighted trap into the main barrel. Same idea but much more complicated.
Minnesota_scientist – at 14:36 Thanks! Have all items but the plain iodine (have betadine) but will get more of all. (I like my, uh, herbal extract with celery salt & lots of pepper)
Wolf at 20:22
That belongs on the “What will you be sipping while you SIP?” topic. Please stay focused! :-)
I’ve come across some blue plastic 55-gal drums, that used to contain animal fat (oleic acid). Would these be safe for potable water after cleaning? If so, any suggestions on how to clean would be appreciated.
Possibly. The barrels are probably food-grade so remaining oil will taint your water but be non-toxic. Cleaning is going to be difficult, and will take time (possibly days), and you still may not get all of the oil out.
I’ve never cleaned a barrel before, (drained a keg, but never cleaned a barrel)
If I had to clean one of these, I’d probably add a pump. Fill to the very top with hot, soapy water or maybe a commercial food contact degreaser, and have a pump pull water from one bung, and spray it into the other. Let it circulate for a day, rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat. Oleic Acid has a melting point of about 57 degrees, so the rinse water should be warmer than that.
Finally, this boils down to a time versus money issue. To me right now, it’s not worth my time to clean out a barrel. When I was younger, it might have been.
Thanks Minn_Sci…
I’ve drained a few kegs myself…decades ago! Since I have more time than money these days, I’ll probably see how clean I can get them, and go from there. Worst case scenerio, I’ll have some drums to hold my cleaning water.
KimT – at 21:30 how about HDPE #2 that held peroxcide for swimming pools can it be cleaned out and used for water storage safely?
08 October 2006 pfwag – at 21:19 Kim, that might depend on how much peroxide seeps into the plastic and is then subsequently released when it is filled with water. While you can drink some peroxide I don’t know what the safety limit is. A chemist friend told me you can get test strips for all sorts of different chemicals so you could determine the ppm concentration once you find out what the safe level is. If I had to guess, rinsing it out a few times will render it OK.
Ideally, you would want to rinse with a benigh substance, such as baking soda, that would neutralize any residual peroxide. There is another Flu wiki thread http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.QuestionsForChemist where you could ask.
Short answer - If the hydrogen peroxide is food grade, meaning that the label says food grade AND you know that there are no stabilizers added AND it’s in a food grade barrel, then maybe. H2O2 in concentrations of 400–1,000 ppm is linked to cancer in mice. (about 1/2 cup of residual H2O2 in a 55 gallon barrel is about 580ppm)
The National Sanitation Foundation says that it’s ok to use food grade hydrogen peroxide in drinking water at a concentration of no more than ~85ppm, BUT the water must be treated with chlorine before drinking! This will remove the residual hydrogen peroxide.
This means that you don’t want more than 2 tablespoons of 35% hydrogen peroxide to be in the barrel, or 1 tablespoon of 70% hydrogen peroxide to be in the barrel.
Long answer: Rinse the barrel, then dry the barrel out completely, and let it sit. Fill with warm water and add a half box of baking soda. (it’s more than enough, but let’s be cautious) Let it sit for a day, then rinse, rinse, rinse with clean water. Fill and store. Treat with chlorine before you drink it!
(my disclaimer: The best option is to buy new, food grade water storage barrels.)
Wanted to try to get some speculative answers to my post about charcoal which read:
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 08:14 Thanks Kim, yeah, it’s the acquarium stuff I’d use — used to have 5 different acquariums up to 50 gallon size!
Just don’t know how much to use…..wash it till the ‘black’ runoff is clear & it’s ready to use, but wonder how much to use.
Thank you Minnesota_scientist – at 22:37 and pfwag! It is food grade barrels and food grade peroxide.
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