This is a thread for people who have had, may get, or know somebody that might get kidney stones during PBF. Since there are some 400,000 hospitilizations a year for treatment of kidney stones that covers a lot of people. Ignoring the ethical question of who is going to be getting any other treatment during PBF when the hospital is packed with sick and dying H5N1 infected people, obviously being in a hospital for a few days during PBF is not a good idea.
For those of you who haven’t had the experience, let me put it in perspective: for males it is worse than being kicked in the b***s three of four times an hour continuously for a few days. For women, I am told by those who have gone through both child birth and kidney stones that they will take childbirth as it is shorter and doesn’t hurt as much.
When passing a kidney stone under “normal” circumstances you take some serious pain killers (e.g. Oxycodone/Percocet) until they FINALLY get you on the morphine drip. There they pump fluids in you and hope the stone passes. If it doesn’t pass after a few miserable days you then have more complicated procedures to remove or blast the stone.
This brings up the question: what do you do if you pass a kidney stone during PBF? What about any self treatment remedies? I have one “home remedy” that I recently paid money to get, but haven’t yet had the pleasure of needing to try, that I’ll post later. Assuming TSHTF, how do you get a prescription for Percocets to have in reserve to see you through the process? I know that last question is dicey but those who have passed a kidney stone know exactly what I mean.
Other thoughts and suggestions?
pwfag. You are way ahead of the curve. Thanks for the questions and keep at it…this is exactly what we are going to have to start talking about…life with no healthcare…Thanks again!!
better keep a special diet during panflu when you are susceptible for kidney stones. And have yourself checked for small stones (and maybe removed) before the pandemic starts. Females might be more likely to get gall-stones which can hurt to the same amount, here you can do a lot with diet to avoid the attacks in a pandemic.
Don’t forget to have your teeth checked. Remember Tom Hanks’s abcess in ‘Castaway’, he just about went crazy with the pain and finally had to bang it out with a rock. I had an abcess and it was worse than childbirth!
Roughly one in 10 men will have a kidney stone at some point in his life with the first incident occurring between the ages of 20 and 30. Also, studies show that Caucasian males are most likely to suffer from kidney stones, at a rate five times higher than African-Americans.
The best way to fight kidney stones is by drinking plenty of water with each meal and especially after any physical activity.
There are four types:
1- Calcium oxalate crystals account for between 70–80% of all cases. These stones form for a number of reasons and are the most preventable.
2- Struvite stones form almost exclusively as a result of urinary tract infections. This affects around 20% of all sufferers.
3- Cystine and 4- Uric acid stones are both rare, occurring in less than 1% of all cases, and form as a result of an inherited genetic defect.
If you know that you are genetically prone to certain types of stones, avoid eating too much of any food that can contribute to the growth of kidney stones. For example, if you are prone to calcium oxalate stones, avoid consuming too much milk or chocolate.
If you are prone to uric acid stones, then avoid foods that are high in protein such as meat. And finally, as a general rule, don’t ingest too much vitamin C or D — more than four grams per day can encourage kidney stones
Alternate treatment options:
Physical Medicine
Castor oil pack. Used externally, castor oil is a powerful anti-inflammatory. Apply oil directly to skin, cover with a clean soft cloth (for example, flannel) and plastic wrap. Place a heat source (hot water bottle or heating pad) over the pack and let sit for 30 to 60 minutes. For best results, use for three consecutive days
Nutrition
Reduce your intake of sugar, refined foods, animal products (meats and dairy), caffeine, alcohol, soda, and salt.
Drink more water and eat more fiber, vegetables, whole grains, and vegetable proteins.
Cut down on oxalate-containing foods such as spinach, rhubarb, beets, nuts, chocolate, black tea, wheat bran, strawberries, and beans.
Include foods rich in magnesium and low in calcium, such as barley, bran, corn, rye, oats, soy, brown rice, avocado, banana, and potato.
Magnesium citrate (200 to 400 mg per day) may increase the solubility of calcium oxalate and calcium phosphate.
Pyridoxine (B6, 10 to 100 mg per day) is essential for the metabolism of oxalic acid, a component of some stones.
Folic acid (5 mg per day) helps break down uric acid stones.
Herbs
Herbs are generally a safe way to strengthen and tone the body’s systems. As with any therapy, it is important to work with your health care provider on getting your problem diagnosed before you start any treatment. Herbs may be used as dried extracts (capsules, powders, teas), glycerites (glycerine extracts), or tinctures (alcohol extracts). Unless otherwise indicated, teas should be made with 1 tsp. herb per cup of hot water. Steep covered 5 to 10 minutes for leaf or flowers, and 10 to 20 minutes for roots. Drink 2 to 4 cups per day. Tinctures may be used singly or in combination as noted.
For acute pain relief, combine tinctures of wild yam (Dioscorea villosa), cramp bark (Viburnum opulus), kava (Piper methysticum), and Jamaica dogwood (Piscidia piscipula). Take 15 drops every 15 minutes for up to 8 doses.
Drink an infusion of equal parts of gravel root (Eupatorium purpureum), corn silk (Zea mays), pipissewa (Chimaphila umbellata), and kava. Use 1 tsp. of herb mixture per 1 cup water. Drink 3 to 4 cups per day.
It appears that prevention is the best cure. Let’s hope our preps are full of fiber and the excerise we’ll be getting collecting water and fire wood will keep us all healthy.
oh the pain.. oh the agony… my first kidney stone attack happened while I was diving in the bay of conception in Baja California Sur. I was rushed to a clinic in the small town of Mulege some thirty miles away. It was intense pain to say the least. One interesting concoction the Dr. recommended was “Papa de Agua”. This consisted of the water that potato peelings had been boiled in. I drank a lot of that and always wondered if it did any good.
now I keep a large supply of “panclasa (floriglucinol…er: trimetilflorogucinol) that’s spanish. I’m told by my doctor that not only is it cheap but you won’t harm yourself if you accidently take too much. (a different dr. than the potato guy) Anyway it relaxes the urinary tract and allows for easier passage of the stone. I also have some pain killer a little stronger than motrin 800. Even with this stuff I dread the return of the “stones”
this post had been blocked by the administrator replace “0″ with “o” below and include http in front of the links..
try these yahoo-groups :
health.gr0ups.yah00.c0m/gr0up/Kidney-St0nes-Gr0up/
there are groups for all sorts of diseases. Search for keywords
from yah00groups.com
You can also try gr0ups.g00gle.com/
Very useful in a pandemic when no doctors are available.
But also useful in normal times to get info from other
people with the same disease.
I get calcium oxalate stones. I’ve had about 6 experiences over the last 30 years.
I have altered my diet to avoid foods high in oxalates and drink way more water than I ever used to. No iced tea anymore and few sodas. That seems to have lengthened the time betweem episodes.
Has anybody heard of or used the Coca Cola and asparagus treatment?
here are the first posts which I found for that keyword:
Message: 11
> Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 03:44:07 −0000 > From: xxxx > Subject: Coke & Asparagus Flush > > Someone asked about the flush. It did not work for me, but others say > it worked. > > http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=20&i=913 > > > > > > > > --- In Kidney-Stones-Group@yahoogroups.com, “xxxx> wrote: >> >> What can you tell me about the coke and asparagus flush? I’ve never >> heard of that! >> >> >> --- In Kidney-Stones-Group@yahoogroups.com, xxxx >> wrote: >> > >> > I have a very stubborn stone in my ureter, a 4–5mm that has been >> there for at least 2 months I have been trying to pass. I have been >> trying all types of things: >> > >> > Stone Free for 2 weeks, nothing. >> > Chanca Piedra for 2 weeks, nothing >> > Coke and Asparagus Flush >> > >> > I have been drinking over a gallon of water per day for the last 2 >> months too. >> > >> > I read a lot of posts regarding dissolving cleanses for stones in >> the Kidney. Do these work just as well for stones in the Ureter? I >> am asking because conventional wisdom tells me that after whatever >> witches brew I drink, shouldn’t it be getting purified in my kidney >> and therefore by the time it exits my kidney and down to my ureter >> it is “cleaned” and no longer potent enough to dissolve the stone >> and that is why it has not moved? >> > >> > I really do not want to have the procedure up the penis with the >> basket. Anything I have not tried that has helped you, please let >> me know :) >> > >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > > > > > > > ________________________________________________________________________ > ________________________________________________________________________ > > Message: 12 > Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2006 23:01:19 −0500 > From: xxxx > Subject: Re: Coke & Asparagus Flush > >> Someone asked about the flush. It did not work for me, but others say >> it worked. >> >> http://curezone.com/forums/m.asp?f=20&i=913 > > > ‘Others’ will always say _something_ works. Stones move and disappear > all the time, and asparagus enemas will seem to work about as well as > anything. > > But it’s all BS. Go ahead and take any old stone and put it in > phosphoric acid. Email us in 10,000 years when it dissolves. > > > ________________________________________________________________________
pfwag
-have recently had success with IPSconsults4u
Good luck prepping
Some thoughts based on personal experience…..
If you know the type of stone you are prone to (calcium carbonate in my case/most common) you might be able to avoid them, especially if they are calcium carbonate.
Almost everything contains calcium carbonate. The worst offenders are chocolate and spinach.
Based on Canadian research, Lactobacillus_acidophilus a culture in yoghurt might be able to prevent formation of stones. You’ll need to take the culture in capsule form, there isn’t enough in yoghurt. A similar preparation is being released by FDA shortly. An over the counter supplement such as D-Mannose ( a simple sugar) as well as Cranberry extract may help. The urologist will say dilution is the solution - its of limited benefit.
D-Mannose will definitely relieve renal colic (pain), and minimize infection. Worked well till I could get to a lithotriptor.
Torodala, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory works better than anything else. Don’t take for more than 7-days (may cause kidney damage). Traditonal pain-killers don’t work well.
If you have nothing for pain, soak in an extremely hot bath. The relief is quick but doesn’t last too long - better than biting a bullet.
My 2-cents.
silversage - thanks for the info and links
anonymous - thanks. I’m not too sure about the asparagus enema though….
Klatu - the problem which is the impetus for this thread is that a lithotriptor may not be available during PBF or just going to the hospital during a PBF may be worse for you than the kidney stone. In any case, do you have any links on that research?
Does anybody know if it is your kidney is making calcium carbonate and forming stones or the kidney collecting calcium carbonate and making stones?
BTW: somewhere around I have a link where it is suggested that there may be a correlation between chlorine and kidney stone formation. Hearing that, I didn’t need protection from the “oops” factor to spend some money on a filter to take out the chlorine from my tap water. BTW2: if done correctly, that also allows one to remove the filter from your house and use the same filter to make a low pressure filter for making emergency drinking water.
This is interesting: <snip> Frequently Asked Questions
Q I heard that where I live could affect whether I develop kidney stones. Is this true?
Kidney stones do occur more frequently in hot climates. In fact, a certain area in the southern part of the U.S. is dubbed the “stone belt” because kidney stones are so common, presumably because the weather is hotter and the stones are linked to dehydration.
from page 10 of 13 from http://tinyurl.com/p7nco
page 11 of 13 says this: <snip> Putting It All Together Here is a summary of the important facts and information related to kidney stones.
Kidney stones are fairly common; 10 percent of all people will experience a kidney stone at some time during life.
Kidney stones are accumulations of mineral salts and other substances that form solid masses of various sizes within the kidneys or other portions of the urinary tract.
Calcium stones are the most abundant type of kidney stones.
Conditions that contribute to the formation of kidney stones include a high concentration of stone-forming substances in the urine, an imbalance of acid in the urine, and a lack of substances help prevent the growth of crystals in the urine.
That was only part of the summary, but it sounds like the kidneys collect calcium carbonate.
Pfwag – at 16:02 wrote:
Klatu - “the problem which is the impetus for this thread is that a lithotriptor may not be available during PBF”
In any case, do you have any links on that research?”
I was speaking in the past tense and did not intend to suggest that a lithotriptor would be available - my reason for home remedies.
Kidney Int. 2001 Sep
CONCLUSIONS: The urinary excretion of oxalate, a major risk factor for renal stone formation and growth in patients with idiopathic calcium-oxalate urolithiasis, can be greatly reduced with treatment using a high concentration of freeze-dried lactic acid bacteria. We postulate that the biological manipulation of the endogenous digestive microflora can be a novel approach for the prevention of urinary stone formation.’‘’
Kidney Int. 2005 Sep;68(3):1244–9.
CONCLUSION: Manipulation of gastrointestinal (GI) flora can influence urinary oxalate excretion to reduce urinary supersaturation levels. These changes could have a salutary effect on stone formation rates. Further studies will be needed to establish the optimal dosing regimen.
For more information. Go to the National Library of Medicine.. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/
Type into your search query… “renal acidophilus”
Pfwag
Have not had the misfortune to have had kidney stones, but a couple of friends have over the years and do remember them saying it is the worst pain they have ever had. Let’s hope that no one with a proclivity has it happen during a SIP. I would hope that your doctor would be sympathetic and give you a prescription in advance for whatever pain killer you would need. Know that my doctor would not discuss giving Dr. Woodson’s recommended Hydrocodone in advance, given that it is a controlled drug, even though he has known me for fifteen years, my background, knowledge of the flu etc. That will make me feel a lot better when/if I or anyone in my family is to the point with Pandemic flu that it would be needed for extreme pain or for end of life relief from it. When discussed here some time back, have read that some fluwikians have managed to get these drugs, but the rest of us will have to pray we never get in the position where we need them. Of course we can hope that our doctor will be alive or available to prescribe if needed, so one of us can go out and break our SIP. At that point, maybe a large amount of saved sleeping pills will be the difficult decision we may have to make for our loved ones. Let us hope it does not come to that, but it does cross my mind.
Unfortunately hydrocodone or any similar preparations don’t always work with this type of pain, I’ve had them all. The only thing that worked 100% was Torodol. The pain is as bad as they say it is. Unfortunately a prescriptions can’t remove the obstruction and will only provide temporary relief.
Simply put, job #1, is avoid developing the stones in the first place. If the stone is obstructing then your kidney will be damaged unless removed.
Even though Toradol seems to work best when given as an injection, I believe that it also available as a pill. Perhaps your Doc would give you a script for that as it`s a NSAID not a narc.
I’ve had Toradol both ways and they both work well. It’s only for temporary use. If you have a history, It would probably be easier to get prophetically than narcotics.
Thanks. We are getting all our dental work done now so as not to need to be going to the dentist during PBF. I’m still working on the “Suturing for Dummies” and haven’t yet got to “Root Canal for Dummies.” I don’t think there is a “Lithotripsy for Dummies.”
moeb - do you have a US source for “panclasa (floriglucinol…er: trimetilflorogucinol)? I couldn’t find one.
BTW: I found a link that suggests that there is a link between chlorine (in your water) and the incidence of kidney stones.
it’s over the counter in Mexican Pharmacies… in fact most things are other than serious pain killers
Orange Juice Best at Stopping Kidney Stones
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/news/fullstory_38181.html
I wonder if that includes Tang?
I just returned from the hospital a couple of hours ago. I went into the emergency room wednesday with horrible kidney stone pain expecting some morphine… iv fluids and home I would go. The cat scan showed that i had total blockage of both kidneys with a 9.9 millimeter stone on one side and a 1 centimeter stone on the other. In addition the cat scan showed another kidney stone in each kidney both around 9 millimeters. The emergency room doctor told me that they had already contacted the attending doctor on call and he was on his way in and the urology resident was coming down to speak to me. A few minutes later the resident appeared… clicked on the computer screen and showed me the cat scan. He told me that I needed to have two stents put in right away and the operating room was ready. My kidney stone doctor was out of town so I asked the emergency room doctor to call my internist…at home and run the name of the doctor who was on call by him to find out if he said he was “good enough” or did I need to find another doctor who he thought was “better”….. The message from my internist was… I had to have the stents put in.. The doctor on call was excellent and wished me good luck. In pre op I asked the doctor if I needed both stents or was it possible that we could just put one in and one of the stones could pass on its own….. i know that i was expressing some last minute wishful thinking out loud. Dr. Lee looked at me and said… I dont think you understand…. If I do not put in two stents this is lethal….. I looked at my spouse and said… if this was happening during the pandemic I would be dead…. and even if I get this all settled before the pandemic begins… It could happen again in the future and without available health care… I would be dead. I see my doctor next week to discuss how we are going to “REMOVE THE STONES”…. In the meantime I am on oxycodne..hydromorphine..oxbutynin and detrol for the pain and spasms.
Lilith,
You are very kind to share your story for us here. We all wish you a deep recovery. Rest and then talk to some very qualified and experienced natural health practicioners to help get you ready for the next steps.
Your story highlights a very important precept for preparation:
Preparation for a pandemic means making the body operate properly now, so that we don’t have shutdowns then.
liliththemermaid - my prayers are with you. Been there and done that. Didn’t you get any relief after the stetnts were put in? I once had a stent in for a month until I could get in for Lithotripsy.
Unfortunately I do not have anything real positive to tell you. Most of the preceding advice/suggestions are to prevent stones from forming. Assuming you have calcium oxalate stones, the most common type which are easily seen on the x-ray, you could try guzzling LOTS of regular CocaCola. Some say the phosphoric acid will disolve/soften the stone. Others say no. For those of us that have gone through the experience we will try ANYTHING in the hope….
God bless you.
Thanks for the good wishes. I do not look forward to the “removal of the stones” and hope that the one of the techniques that do not involve cutting me open works….
In response to the pain i am in etc. the chief resident (right before I was discharged) told me that I came to the wrong emergency room in the Fairview Health system and that there are stents of different sizes and materials that would have “worked better”…for me but I should have gone to the Fairview Riverside Hospital emergency room instead of the Fairview University Hospital emergency room because all of their “toys” stents…etc… are at the riverside location…. At this point he told me that my future surgery would be done at the fairview riverside location. Of course at that point I wondered why the triage nurse I talked with in the urology department…. who told me to go to an emergency room… didnt direct me to the Fairview Riverside location. It was very important information I needed to know in order to get the best health care possible.
Lilith,
Don’t be too upset. We often are forced to learn about firefighting equipment as the fire is burning . . . much the same when you are in pain and injected into the disease management system.
It’s next to impossible to gather good info and solve for the optimal answer when you are suffering.
Food for Thought
NS1 – at 21:47 wrote:
Food for Thought
Shockwave Lithotripsy May Increase Risk for Diabetes and Hypertension
At 19 years follow-up, SWL of renal and proximal ureteral stones was associated with development of hypertension and diabetes mellitus,” the authors write. The development of these conditions was significantly higher compared to a cohort of conservatively treated nephrolithiasis patients.”
Further studies with other lithotripters should be performed to determine their respective long-term adverse medical effects, since although newer models have smaller focal zones they generate greater pressures at F2, which is associated with tissue trauma.”
19-year follow up, hmmm, I’ll take my chances.
Closed to maintain Forum speed.