From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: A Sleeping Bag or Down Comforter

12 October 2006

new name – at 14:00

I would like comments on which would be better to get to stay warm in an unheated house during SIP. With a down comforter we could use them on our beds even without SIP and also could wrap them around us like a sleeping bag. But then, maybe sleeping bags would be warmer. I’ve never had a sleeping bag so I don’t know much about them. What does everyone else think? And thanks for all for advice.

Newname

Carrey in VA – at 14:12

I would think a sleeping bag would be cheaper, aren’t down conforters expensive? And sleeping bags would be easier to wash I would think too. But then I really don’t like conforters, I’d rather have a quilt LOL

LauraBat 14:19

My limited camping experience says that sleeping bags are warmer - they trap the heat better. And if you are camping, they help keep little kritters from getting in! Of course, a big component is the type of down you have in either option. If you have to pick one or the other, then I’d go with the comforter from a praticality standpoint. If you can affrod both then great. Just buy the best quality you can afford.

diana – at 15:23

Just recalled have a down coat somewhere. Need to wash it. Probably a lot of down filled vest out there. In quilts the ratio of down with feathers determines the cost. Down is the warm part, and the most expensive, feathers arent, but they stretch the down and add a bit of air. (and prickly feather shafts).You can wear a down vest in a sleeping bag . There are also feather mattress pads to sleep on, or woolen mattress pads. Granny flannel gowns and sheets can add some warmth. You can experiment with all kinds of combinations, in all cost categories.

A former Lurker – at 15:25

The main thing is Do Not Sleep in Your Clothes. You’ll be much warmer in PJ’s or nothing, you can always keep your clothing rolled up in the bottom of your bag. Keep a Hat on while sleeping, you’ll be surprised how much warmer you’ll be.

Jane – at 15:49

How about a down comforter over a sleeping bag? The sleeping bag would keep in the warm air when you turn over because it’s a big closed pocket-type thing, and the down comforter would make it warmer, even if it wasn’t the most expensive bag. It’s important to have something thick underneath you, too, because the floor is cold; cold air sinks. (I’m thinking of the “tent in the house” idea.) Sheet bags can be used to line the sleeping bags and keep them clean. There are fleece liners, too.

[http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi?page=proframe&prod_id=891497&AK=1|overstock down comforter]

MAV in Colorado – at 15:53

A sleeping bag would be the most efficient by far due to the air trapping effect you get by zipping it up around you. The synthetics that are available now are nearly as warm and much cheaper. Quallofil 3D is made into bags with subzero ratings and probably available for under $200. Down bags are lighter and more compressable thats why their preferred for backpacking generally. Down isn’t any good if it getes wet so you end up paying more for the waterproof/resistant gortex like outer coverings. For indoor cold weather/ grid goes down etc a Quallofil / polar gaurd type would be fine. (Some will zip together with like bags for synergistic warmth creation with other bodies.)

new name – at 16:00

A.former lurker at 15.25

That is a great idea about having day clothes rolled up at the bottom of whatever you have whether a sleeping bag or comforter. Then you could dress while still in the warm bed.You wouldn’t have to get up in the cold room to get dressed.

Keep all those good ideas coming.

MAV in Colorado – at 16:24

When winter camping, boots (or boot liners) and a liter water bottle also inhabit the foot of the sleeping bag.

Northstar – at 16:41

I’m facing a MI winter with small kids so I’ve gotten both: a 0 degree sleeping bag ($37 on sale at Meijers) and a down throw to tuck inside ($8.50, clearance at meijers). Since I have small children they don’t really fill up a sleeping bag and the down stadium blanket is just right to wrap around them in the bag. Each kid will also have a canvas bag with fire-heated stones down at the foot; I just experimented with hot rocks in bed and they’re heavenly. They stay warm a long time, too.

To keep the set up fresher I plan to stitch together the edges of a flat sheet to make a sleeping bag sheet; it can be pulled out during the day to completely dry.

Hurricane Alley RN – at 16:56

Newname - Check out camping supplies online. Then take a look at the sleeping bags. They’re not what they use to be. Many of the bags have a temperture rating. There are two styles of sleeping bags. The usual style is the rectangle and the mummy style is as the name implies. Most mummy style sleeping bags have a hood for keeping the head warm. Since I hate the feeling of being confined, I’ll stay with the regular style and ware a knit cap. If the temperture is low, you will need to cover your head to stay warm. You would be suprised at the amout of body heat lost from just your head. Just know there is no way in h*l* you will win a beauty title the next morning! LOL Most regular sleeping bags will zip together to make a sleeping bag for two if you want to share body heat.

To keep the inside of your sleeping bag cleaner, make a couple of sheet liners. For the regular - One twin size flat sheet folded in half lengthwise. Sew bottom and side. Stuff bag in bag. This can also be done for the zip together using two twin flat sheets. gina

diana – at 17:16

Flannel inner liners might be cosier.

janetn – at 17:53

I got a good down comforter at overstock.com. I love it. IMO better than any sleeping bag I ever used. I belive I paid $60 for it was listed as $360 retail. One of the best $60 purchases Ive made.

bird-dog – at 18:16

This is what I use when travelling or camping(in my sleeping bag) or when I’ve forgotten to dry my sheets. Actually I have an older version thats called something like a ‘silk sack’. They are easy to wash, and dry quickly plus they add 5 to 15 extra degrees of warmth. I’m sure one could be found for less $$. I’ll do a search. This is the current one offered by L. L. Beans >>> http://tinyurl.com/vohny

There is another one offered for summertime that wicks.

bird-dog – at 18:35

Here’s a sleeping sack at Amazon that’s a decent price >>> http://tinyurl.com/y4p6za.

I have a DreamSack also available at Amazon which I’ve been using for six years and is still in great shape >>> http://tinyurl.com/y73n6o.

Much easier to clean than a comforter or sleeping bag or sheets, for that matter.

Ottawan – at 18:55

I’d worry about a down comforter getting damp in an unheated house during a protracted SIP. Sleeping bags nowadays are made with such innovative technology and are made for sub-zero temperatures. Check out the sleeping bags and related stock at http://www.mec.ca they have a wide selection.

bird-dog – at 19:03

A less expensive silk sack at Amazon >>> http://tinyurl.com/y8lwp9.

CabinLassat 19:17

Aren’t down feathers made from birds? Maybe they the feathers have been sterilized but have they really?

Al – at 20:22

I was thinking about attaching two twin polarfleece blankets together to enclose my child’s duvet. Since I’m not very good at sewing, I thought I’d check out that iron-on web fusing that I’ve seen in stores. Anyone know if that stuff holds up well?

new name – at 21:42

Al at 20:22

I’ve used the iron-on web fusing and always had good luck with it. Also, the Stitch-Witchery is similar and holds up even after many,many washings.

Al – at 21:54

Thanks new name. I’m handier with scissors, tape and irons than I am with a needle and thread!

CabinLass, I’ve wondered the same thing myself. How safe could imported bird feathers be right now? How are they processed? Do they come primarily from China?

Kim – at 22:01

I’ve slept both in down sleeping bags and under a down comforter, and I prefer a down comforter.

First off, be advised that ANYTHING made of down is not going to provide one bit of cushion underneath you, nor will it provide any worthwhile insulation underneath you, because your body weight is compressing the down and eliminating it’s loft. (Loft is all the tiny air spaces trapped in the down that make it such a good insulator). A good pad or mattress should be underneath you both for cushioning and to insulate you from the ground.

Many down sleeping bags have a nylon type cover, which is C-O-L-D when you first slide into it. Therefore a liner is a good idea, both to keep that cold cover off of you until your body heats up the bag (doesn’t take long, but it can be a miserable few minutes!) and to keep your bag a little cleaner.

If you’ve never slept in a mummy style bag it can take some getting used to. If you’re a restless sleeper who tosses and turns alot and needs to stretch out, a mummy bag is not for you. I fall into this category, which makes my highly-rated mummy bag attractive only in the most dire of circumstances.

As pointed out earlier, you will stay warmer in a down bag or under a down comforter if you’re not wearing clothes.

I have a down comforter on my bed and wouldn’t trade it for anything. I got it when I had a “mild” case of Guillian-Barre and everything that touched my skin hurt. A down comforter is SO lightweight that you barely even feel it. Down comforters also generally have fabric covers, so you don’t encounter quite the “cold shock” that you would with a nylon-covered sleeping bag. Down is also good both winter and summer… in the winter it keeps you toasty warm, and in the summer it’s lightweight and breathes. If it gets REALLY cold in the winter I’ll add a thermal-weave acrylic blanket under the comforter, but that’s rarely needed.

Jane – at 22:13

For AI: Using iron-on tape instead of sewing your fleece probably would NOT work, because, first, fleece is synthetic and cannot take a very warm iron without melting, and second, fleece is a knitted fabric with fibers pulled up by some sort of comb to make it fuzzy, and if you get the tape to stick, it will only stick to the top layer and may pull off the fuzzy part in the higher-stress places. I made myself some fleece pants by basting them together, because I was afraid the machine sewing would flatten it (I was chicken) and it’s still together. It isn’t hard, and the stitches don’t have to be even. I just took big stitches in one direction and smaller ones going the other way.

13 October 2006

Al – at 09:51

Well, Jane, you may have saved me a melted mess since I didn’t even consider that possibility. I guess I’ll handstitch it instead, although I can barely sew. I got my little girl a down comforter last year at one of those Odd Lot type stores-it is cheaply made and has lots of feather ends poking through. It’s made mostly of feathers w/ 5% down, I think. Even so, it is very warm. I guess the iron-on tape will be used instead on two flat sheets to make a duvet cover so she doesn’t keep getting poked by the feathers. The high feather content gave me concerns about the product, hence my comment to CabinLass re: saftey of feather products imported from areas where H5N1 is endemic in poulty. populations.

Does anyone know if feather products from China are safe?

bird-dog – at 10:48

Hi Al - I personally wouldn’t buy any avian products from China right now and in the past two months have even stopped buying *any* poultry products from anywhere. I have plenty of chicken noodle soup for SIP/illness which I bought in the spring so I think that I’m all set.

FWIW - from the CDC >>> http://tinyurl.com/yl75eg

Questions and Answers About Avian Influenza (Bird Flu) and Avian Influenza A (H5N1) Virus

“Is there a risk in handling feather products that come from countries experiencing outbreaks of avian influenza A (H5N1)? The U.S. government has determined that there is a risk to handling feather products from countries experiencing outbreaks of H5N1 influenza.

There is currently a ban on the importation of birds and bird products from H5N1-affected countries in Africa, Asia, and Europe. The regulation states that no person may import or attempt to import any birds (Class Aves), whether dead or alive, or any products derived from birds (including hatching eggs), from the specied countries (see Embargo of Birds from Specified Countries). This prohibition does not apply to any person who imports or attempts to import products derived from birds if, as determined by federal officials, such products have been properly processed to render them noninfectious so that they pose no risk of transmitting or carrying H5Nl and which comply with the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) requirements. Therefore, feathers from these countries are banned unless they have been processed to render them noninfectious. Additional information about the import ban is available on the USDA website.”

new name – at 15:12

Bird-Dog at 10:48

Wow, I didn’t even think of that so thanks for posting it. I too have stopped buying chicken for cooking. I guess I’ll have to rethink about what to get now for warmth. What about sheepskin covers? I wonder where they come from.I know they are quite expensive tho.

Oremus – at 15:20

Whichever you decide, sleeping together is warmer than sleeping alone. Either big enough comforter to cover all, or zip sleeping bags together.

diana – at 16:09

I got most of my sheepskins at a fleamarket from someone who had a sheep farm. But the last super large sheepskins I use came from Costco. (A couple sewed together) They must come from New Zealand.I think I’ll throw one into the drivers seat of my car for the winter.

Al – at 19:32

You know, feathers are a huge import item-down comforters, down coats, down parkas, LL Beans, Lands End etc. Does anyone know what the process is by which the feathers are supposedly sterilized?

ssol – at 20:13

A lot of good advice here. My family has camped a lot over the years. Here is what we have learned. 1. If the bag is too small you will be miserable and won’t get a good sleep - ever. Get a rectangular bag if you are big (overweight) or restless. Been there. 2. Do not get down for BF. It is a bear to clean and dry - especially yourself. Get a synthetic bag. 3. Buy a folding clothes dryer. You can open your bags and dry them much faster. Dry them on the porch in low humidity or near a woodstove. Works for us every time. 4. Always have a hood attached to the bag. A cap won’t cut it. I have slept in a 20 F bag at 32 F without a hood several times and froze. 80% of heat loss goes out your head. If you don’t have a hood on your bag, make sure you have a fleece or better yet, wool blanket to completely wrap your shoulders and head in. If you don’t believe me, try it one night this winter on your porch as a test. 5. If you have a dog that might get on the bag, make sure you buy a cotton DUCK outer layer. Dog and cat claws can destroy a nice nylon bag in one or two nights. 6. Have replacement zippers and patching material. 7. Buy cheap polyester sleeping bags for lounging in. Don’t use your good bag - let it dry and keep it away from the popcorn and coffee/tea/soda. 7. A cot beats a sleeping pad by a mile. 8. Since BF is probably a SIP scenario, you do not need a North Face bag, get what you need at Walmart, save some money and buy more food.

Jane – at 20:38

What kind of cot do you recommend? I have a nylon and aluminum cot. Every time I move, it creaks, and it would disturb DH. I slept on a cot in the winter one night and froze because of heat loss through the fabric. I don’t remember if I was in a sleeping bag, though, or sheet and blankets. Is a cot better because it’s off the floor and therefore warmer? I’m thinking of a foam mattress in a tent (The mattress is from a bed, not a camping mattress-it’s 5 or 6 inches thick). Thanks for the ideas about hoods, and lounging bags, especially.

preppiechick – at 20:47

I’ve noticed that my kids bed feel warmer than mine- they have egg crate mattress pads and we don’t. I think the thick, synthetic material, and the air space between the bumps, retain heat. I think that i will stuff them into the sleeping bags…and get some for us!

ssol – at 21:06

Jane - at 20:38

Look at this cot: http://tinyurl.com/yy3cd2. It is about 36″ wide and nice. This is what I have. A standard cot is 28″ wide. I got the larger cot because I’m a rugger gone to seed :0 You can also get a good cot 42″ wide. I do not use the pad though. Not necessary with a good bag. No creaking. Cots are nice because there is no rock or root in my back and I can put stuff underneath it. They are nice to sit on and easy to get out of the tent at 4:30 am to feed and walk the dog. I cannot see it in your home unless you lose heat in most of it and have to move downstairs. If you need additional insulation under a bag and don’t have a closed-cell pad (they are expensive) put a wool blanket beneath your bag. Works for my family. As far a BF goes, they are great for guests because of comfort and ease of storing during the day. Easy to clean too if used for a sick person.

In what situation will you use your tent for BF? Quarantine, bugout?

Kim – at 21:10

Here is a link that does some explaining about down. Now alot of this website is trumpeting the praises of THEIR down vs. everyone else’s down, but once you get past the hype there’s some really good info there. And no, I don’t own their brand of down comforter (I couldn’t afford one of theirs!) and know nothing about the company, just think the website has some good info on it.

http://www.down-feather-bedding.com/

Jane – at 21:31

ssol-I’m thinking of a winter without heat, and DH and I living in one room in a tent. Bug-out isn’t in my plans, really. The link you gave was for a cot pad, and I couldn’t find a 36″ W cot. Which cot is it?

anon_22 – at 22:06

I think you would be better off sleeping in at least a few layers of your day clothes and not aim at just wearing your pajamas.

Remember that air is one of the best insulators. That’s why down comforters are warm, cos they create tiny airpockets. Its those airpockets that keep you warm, not the feather. If you don’t believe this, imagine flattening out all that fluff and glueing them all together into a flat sheet, how warm would that keep you? :-)

Because of that, one of the best ways to improvise is to create layers of air between your body and the outside. Layering would achieve that, as would sealing openings to prevent warm air from your body escaping. I would say wear at least 3 layers of clothes, even if they are just lightweight sweatshirts, and make sure all openings eg cuffs, neck-collar, are as ‘airtight’ as possible.

I read a story once which I can’t find now of people surviving very low temperatures by scrounging up old newspapers and stuffing them in between 2 layers of clothes!

And, as mentioned before, wear a hat, or even 2. The scalp accounts for 10% of body heat loss!

Finally, after you’ve bundled up everyone, throw a big tarp over, or use a tent as mentioned.

Jane – at 22:13

I like long underwear, then sweatpants and sweatshirt (the type with the fuzzy interior) or fleece pants and sweater. Also wear warm and DRY socks, not the socks you wore all day, because they’re damp and will make you chilly. Maybe a hat and a hooded sweatshirt.

Olymom – at 22:20

Dry socks are also helpful (change before going to bed) — I am wary of down because our guys have allergies — over time/lots of use, down, particularly cheap down, can start to disenigrate and it can be rough on anyone with allergies. Wet down also clumps (dry in electric clothes dryer with a tennis shoe to break up lumps) but you may have the power, right?

Have everyone make a bathroom stop before bed. We learned the hard way that kids don’t want to go sit on a cold potty - but if they jump in the sleeping bag and warm up and fall asleep . . . nature lets go. Adults sleep warmer too when on “empty” — the body expends energy to keep the core warm and then extremities, so the less liquid in the core, the more energy for toesies.

Fleece comes in all sorts of grades and quality — the good stuff dries quickly —what about a sleeping bag with a fleece blanket on top?

MAV in Colorado – at 23:56

When looking into cots for use inside a tent: the ones with legs will make holes in the tent floor. Better to get the ones that are rounded tubular like the beach chairs.

http://tinyurl.com/y3h4at

http://tinyurl.com/yya64a

14 October 2006

ssol – at 04:13

Jane – at 21:31 Sorry about the link. Here is what I have http://tinyurl.com/a3to7. My cot is a copy of the Slumberjack. I have 2 of these. One was bought at Cabelas (their copy) and another was bought at Sams Club (unknown copy). I paid around $60 for each.

MAV in Colorado – at 23:56. I agree that the legs on a traditional cot can wear a hole in a tent floor. We do 2 things to fix this problem. The first is a tent floor. Most tent floors are nylon, they are cold and slippery in the cool morning air. We have a 9′ circular carpet remnant of indoor/outdoor carpet on our tent floor. It protects the tent floor from almost anything. I also use circular furniture ‘coasters’ under the legs of our cots to further protect the floor.

anon_22 – at 22:06 As Kim has pointed out (Kim – at 22:01), you sleep warmer in a sleeping bag with minimal clothes rather than several layers. I do not know why but have experienced the difference many times when I was learning to camp. In fact, I have a very good friend that grew up in Alaska ( his father was a big game guide). He told me of being stranded for 2 weeks on an island off the coast (socked in by bad weather) with provisions for a 3 day hunt. It rained every day for 2 weeks and temperatures were around freezing. All their gear was soaked, including them. The sleeping bags were soaked too. They slept just fine. The bags were hollofill and even though soaking wet, insulated them very well. He told me the key to staying warm in those conditions is to sleep completely naked. It obviously has something to do with insulation but he couldn’t explain it either.

As far as using a fleece bag over a sleeping bag is concerned - try it. If you want more warmth it will help - but you should tuck it around your bag to eliminate drafts. If it is to protect a nylon bag from Fido, it will work. A few years ago I was using the worst bag in the family (funny how as our children grow older they take more and more of our good stuff - ‘You don’t need this anymore, do you Dad ?!’ It was actually 2 very small, 20 year old North Face down bags zipped together. I was sleeping on the ground and our GSD thought I was a love cushion. I couldn’t get her to stay off it, so I put a suplus military wool blanket over it for protection. Problem solved - aside from the hair on the blanket.

If a durable cotton duck bag is what you’re looking for, check this: http://tinyurl.com/yka3ty or this: http://tinyurl.com/yhe9h6

I have been a customer of www.cabelas.com, www.bassproshops.com and www.campmor.com. I have also been to Cabelas and Campmor’s stores. All are reputable in my experience.

ssal – at 04:27

No complaints, but I feel the need to emphasize that ssol and ssal are two completely different people.

Irene – at 10:37

Allergy to feathers isn’t that uncommon. If you use synthetic stuffed pillows at home, you may not even be aware that anyone in your family has this problem. So check before you spend money buying feather stuffed bedding for an allergic family member.

diana – at 11:20

I’m experimenting by keeping the heat off. We are having night frost, and when it really hits will turn the heat on. Am trying different things. The velvety type of cover isn’t all that warm. The sheepskin is blissful wherever it covers you. Snug as a bug in a rug feeling. Will drag out my down quilts and try them tonight.

Medical Maven – at 13:58

This sleeping naked in the sleeping bag for optimal warmth seems counterintuitive, but let us assume it is correct. I would not want to be so unready to hop out of the bag to counter unforseen threats in such a state. I plan on being mostly clothed with firearms and outdoor functional slip-ons by the sleeping bag just in case.

Medical Maven – at 14:16

One other cautionary note. In the book “Hitler Moves East” by Paul Carrell the author describes how the Russian partisans savaged the bedded-down German troops in their cozy abodes during that most terrible winter of 1941–42. So just because the weather does not seem fit for man nor beast do not assume that you are safer at night than in more favorable weather. Man’s ingenuity knows no bounds when pushed by rapacity and desperation.

An outdoor lookout in a tolerable, hidden location would turn the tables in your favor. Surprise is more than an equalizer, it serves up victory.

MAV in Colorado – at 16:35

MM- thats what the trip wire set ups are for…hehehe

The sleeping sans clothing thing has gone too far-STOP it! (just kidding)

When winter camping in the Rockies at elevation, air temps down to −25 are fairly common. Expedition weight long johns (daytime base layer) and a good subzero mummy bag are totally adequate if sleeping in a tent. The air trapping concept described above is the basic fact for keeping warm. Whether newspaper between clothing layers or the spaces (loft) that down feathers create. Trapped air and layers of trapped air create insulation. This only works if there is a heat source, ie warm body, to begin with. Eating and exercise create heat. Do both before bedding down in unheated cold weather environments.

IMHO, survival preps that are deemed “critical” should be carefully considered. NOT a good place to skimp if your life could depend on ‘em. With regards to survival, “shelter” preps(ie provisions for warmth etc) should come before Food! You will not starve to death in a couple of days but you sure can freeze to death in that time.

Hundreds of people without proper clothing/shelter die of hypothermia each year in the USA in temeratures only in the 40′s and 50′s. They are called “The Homeless”. Anyone of us could find ourselves “homeless” in a worse case PF senario for a multitude of reasons if caught away from home or forced to bug out.

Bronco Bill01 January 2007, 08:41

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