Continued from a long string of power alternatives here
anonymous – at 13:28
Any recommendations for a source of high output 12V alternators? (850 RPM delivering 150 A)
Eccles – at 14:01
Anonymous- I am just “zipping through” here at lunch, so my one quick thought might be to acquire a wind turbine and refit it to belt drive. Then you ought to be able to drive it at the right RPM for those many amps. (Assuming it is a large enough turbine to begin with).
The only other thought would be to see what kind of retrofits are available for police and emergency vehicles. SOme of them have very large electrical systems.
Question on using 12 volt batteries inside. If I were to use a deep cycle battery inside with an inverter to run the sump pump, is there a danger of gases int he basement. I know there is a danger of charger in a garage, but what about discharging in a closed environment?
The only other alterenative is to run a very long extension cord from the inverter to the pump. Thanks electronic experts.
NJ Jeeper - if it is a sealed type, such as a SLAB or an AGM, then as long as you charge and discharge it wihtin the published ratings of the battery, you should be safe. If it is a vented type like an automobile battery of some of the common trolling/deep cycle batteries, then you definitely need to be careful about generating hydrogen.
Thanks Eccles, I knew you would come through. It is a deep cycle from Walmart. It is not sealed. It has the caps you can pry off. So I will run a long extension cord to the basement from the inverter on the outside or open garage if needed. Or run the genny and run a long cord to the basement. Great to have a source of info for these type of quesitons.
I have discovered that instead of SEALED lead/acid batteries, mine are the supposedly maintenance-free kind that have a plate that caps 3 cells on each side. How did I discover this? There was a liquid on the top of one of my batteries when I checked them last night. A simple test with baking soda proved it to be battery acid. On close inspection I could see where another battery also had a similar leakage but the battery fluid dried up before I noticed it.
I really don’t understand the cause for the leaking. I have been charging and discharging the batteries gently.
Sometimes the bubbles inside “burp” all of a sudden. Can happen when equalizing the cells through a slight overcharge
For those of you looking for solar flashlights, I saw his at www.beprepared.com - their “Sun Tap Ultra” - hope I don’t screw up the link!
FYI just got my last 4 panels from NH. Noticed they have an even better 3 panel + charger deal for $200…. May be ordering the Kyoceras tomorrow…..
Just wondering if anyone knows where I can purchase solar flood lights ? :o)
Fluing (love the name BTW) just google it - I’ve come across many sites. Was thinking about getting some myself to help deter possible break-ins. We have electric ones with motion sensors, but obviously no good with-out juice. I know some other wikians gought extras to have for reading lights, room lights, etc. A good idea vs battery-sucking lanterns, etc. You don’t need great light to get dressed and brush your teeth.
Fluing - try this to see if it meets your needs.
Fluing, after having a couple of different brands, I’ve been most pleased with the Heath-Zenith solar floodlight (available at Lowes and also I’m sure elsewhere, usually about $70). It has proven to be rugged and reliable.
Eccles (or anyone else out there who knows), is there any reason why a compact fluorescent bulb can’t be used in an outdoor light fixture that is activated by a motion detector (also has a photocell to prevent it from coming on during daylight hours)? Will cold winter weather affect the performance of a cf bulb?
Also, wanted to let everyone know about these WONDERFUL compact fluorescent bulbs I found at Walmart (on clearnce, no less!). They are called “Sunlight Bulbs” and render the same type of light as natural sunlight… very bright, instant on (THAT’S a plus!), and the light it puts out really is wonderful and glare-free. I already had cf bulbs in one of my ceiling fans (has 4 light bulbs in it), and could not believe the difference in the quality of the light output as I was replacing the old cf’s with the sunlight bulbs. The sunlight bulbs give off a crisp white light, whereas the light output of the old cf’s had a noticeably heavy yellow cast to them in comparison. I have now replaced nearly every bulb in the house with these sunlight bulbs (sorry, I wiped out the supply at 2 local Walmarts!). The only problem I’ve encountered with them is that some of them are too long to fit within small globe fixtures (for those few fixtures I had to settle for some GE Daylight cf bulbs which are smaller in length (and diameter). Unfortunately, the GE bulbs are not instant on, but I can live with that because of the superior light quality of the Daylight/Sunlight bulbs.
Kim-
There are two reason why you may not want to run a CF bulb in an outdoor fixture controlled by a photocell. And first off, yes, cold weather will strongly reduce the performance of a CF bulb, up to preventing it from firing when turned on.
The reason you can’t use a CF bulb in a controller equipped lamp has to do with the difference between an ordinary lightbulb and the ballast (base unit) of a CF lamp. The ordinary lamp looks like a regular piece of wire when not running, which allows the fixture to play a “trick” by uisng the light bulb as part of the wiring and allowing it to pull power through the bulb to operate the controller. This can’t be done with most CF ballasts, and since there is no way to tell except on a lamp-by-lamp analysis of the design, the basic rule is “NO”.
Also, most CF lamps are not weather proof, and so the first rain or condensation they hit, you probably lose the lamp. There are outdoor fixtures which contain CF lamps and are photocell controlled. I have several on my house. But you need to buy them for that purpose. I got mine at Lowes Depot.
As for the color of the lamp. The quality you are referring to is known as the Color Temperature of the lamp. The older designs of CF lamps attempted to mimic the Color Temperature of a tungsten filament bulb, which produces a decidedly yellow cast. If you shop in better stores with a wider asortment of lamps, you will find several Color Temperatures, each having its own warmth or coolness of light. I am running a Daylight lamp here in my home office. I find it too harsh for most other applications in the home.
You pays yer money and takes yer choices.
And I too have been plagued by the “Just a fraction of an inch too tall” CF lamps for some of my ceiling fixtures. It’s a real pain, isn’t it?
Thanks for the info Eccles, since the outdoor motion-activated lights don’t come on all that often, or for very long at a time, I guess I won’t fret over having regular light bulbs in them (and perhaps I’ll eventually replace those powered by the house wiring with solar-powered motion activated floods, but that’s a ways down the road). I personally like the sunlight/daylight color immensely, it seems to me such a vast improvement over the yellowish cast of the old cf’s. I am at that stage of life where more light is definitely a good thing if I want to be able to see well, so the daylight bulbs really help there ;-) I had had cf’s in the most-used fixtures in the house, but when I went to replace EVERY light bulb in the house with the sunlight/daylight cf bulbs I was amazed that I STILL removed and replaced ten incandescent bulbs (varying from 60–100 watts!). As the tubes wear out in some of my fluorescent fixtures, I will look to replace them with tubes in the sunlight/daylight color temperature as well. We just remodeled our kitchen, and I’m going to install LED rope lights in the soffit areas for some super energy efficient ambient lighting when bright light isn’t needed. Since DH is bad about leaving lights on, I’m hoping that replacing EVERYTHING (except the 4 exterior motion-controlled lights) with cf’s and LEDs will make a dent in the electric bill. Thanks again, Eccles!
NoFluingAround – at 23:43
Just purchased 4 Solar flood lights from Costco at 30$ Canadian each, have one installed and up working and am pleased with it as it has a motion sensor which works well and a seperate solar panel which I mounted about 10ft. away from the light.
Is there a wiki section that is being developed to cover this overall subject matter? At one time, someone (lugon?) had started something, but I can’t locate it. What’s the status and location?
I am unaware of such a project at this time Will. I would certainly volunteer to contribute to it. I am fairly heavily loaded with work, or I would volunteer to start it.
Will- I’ll provide pictures of my installations if there is interest as I proceed, together with sizing calcs, etc.
can someone point me to the discussion thread that contained the project of building a “room lighting fixture” from an LED car headlight, please?
Eccles, I would like your opinion on this item:
Oremus - I saw this one too. I wonder how many times you have to crank the thing and how long it lasts? We have one the of crank radios and you have to crank it 60 times to get one hour of play. This looks a lot less cumbersome than losar panels though if you need to be mobile.
LEG: There is a great number of DIY LED lamps, this one is nice since its solar and uses a carbattery. you may skip the solarcells, and only go for the battery and a charger..
http://www.solorb.com/elect/solarcirc/solarfl/
But calculating resistors are not very complicated, but a little hassel.
http://led.linear1.org/led.wiz Calculator is easy, you buy a lot of white leds, and a resistor package with different values, you type in the number of leds you wanna use, their values and your power voltage (12v for a car battery), Then the calculator shows you how to conect them. This is the cheap way. A easyer way is to order ready made 12v led lamps from netsites like this german one, then you dont need to think about polarity or resistors, just plug them in your batteri. This shop is german, you may certanly find one in the US if thats your location.
http://www.dotlight.de/shop/product_info.php/cPath/203_210_248/products_id/657
LauraB – at 05:58
I don’t know for sure, but I’m bettin’ you gotta crank that sucker a lot. I agree that solar panels are not all that portable, but they are a lot less work!
The next project I have penciled in is a couple of deep-cycle batteries in a rolling garden cart with a frame on the top to hold two solar panels. Not something necessariy great for bugging out, but portable power nonetheless.
note. if you look at the german link you will recognise the typical 12v Halogen fiksture that is very comon. Typical 90s style with paralell vires in the roofs with halogen spotlights bulbs inbetween. This means you can use or buy 12 v halogen lamp sets to use with these LED “bulbs”, and if power breaks, you just disconect the transformators, and plug in a car batteri instead.
Oremus-
An interesting device indeed. From the description, I can see two issues that would personally give me pause, one is technical, the other physical.
First the technical issue. From the description, they claim the unit has two outputs, 25V/2 A and 30V/1A. If you add these up, you find that the unit will probably produce either one or the other, else the 50 watt rating is violated. So let us assume that you get one or the other.
25 volts is too high a voltage to charge a 12V battery of any design. So you would need to use some sort of conversion circuitry to use it effectively. You cannot just hook it to the terminals of a battery. In the case of a 25V output, this would require that you use a 24 volt inverter, which while available over the web, is not the normal consumer inverter you encounter.
And so now you have the eficiency issue of generator > inverter > Ac operated charger > battery.
Now assuming we can capture most of the power and use it for charging, it would take you most of a day to recharge a 24 AH size battery, such as is used in some of the portable power units.
Now the physical issue. If you look at the picture, it appears to be intended to have someone lying on the “gurney” section of it and cranking with his legs. This makes much more sense since the legs are more likely to be able to provide that amount of energy for any period of time. The arms aren’t going to do it unless you are Mscles McGurk.
So, unless you have some nice strapping 18 year old Chinese soldiers around to run the thing for you, I suspect you will be disappointed with the unit.
Not a bad price, though.
Eccles – at 07:45
Could you charge two 12 volt batteries in series?
I was thinking of making and hooking it up to a water wheel in nearby creek.
I started a main FluWiki page for alternative energy. If anyone has free time maybe they can review the various threads here and add some content for future reference.
Plan B: Northern Tool has the 15-watt panels on sale again ($79.99 this time, but still with free shipping), so I’m thinking about getting two of those and a Xantrex 600 ($138.88 with free shipping from Amazon).
From the Xantrex User Guide: “Small, unregulated 12 V solar panels rated to produce a maximum of 2.5 A (or 30 W) can be used to charge the XPower Powerpack through the AC charger input socket.”
So does this mean it would be ok to connect the first panel to the second one, and then connect the second one to the Xantrex? Without melting or exploding anything?
I’ve looked at individual batteries and controllers and inverters (oh, my!), but that’s too many pieces-parts, and the possibilities for disaster rise geometrically with each additional component.
Thanks again for any words of wisdom…
check out the portable solar panels from Affordable
expensive but totally portable (less than 2 lbs for 55W)
Oremus - Unfortunately, you can not charge 2 12 volt batteries in series with the 25 volt output. If we ignore some significant battery issues for the second, you won’t get enough voltage per battery to effect a charge. A normal fast charge would require 14.2–14.6 volts per battery, which would add up to just under 30 volts. Thus, the 30 volt output would be a candidate, except that 30 volts would be too much to safely charge the two batteries in series. At a minimum of 13.2 volts per battery, you would slowly charge them in roughly forever, and then hold them fully charged for the rest of forever.
The other big issue is that to charge batteries in series like that without an undesired and unfortunate outcome, they must be identical batteries with the same amount of wear on them and with the same initial charge. Otherwise, things you don’t want happening will happen.
dbg - The way you use two panels to charge a larger battery is to connect the two of them in parallel. That is the only hook-up method which (a) will work and (b) keep things safe.
Parallel connectins are easy . All positive leads (red) connect to each other. All negative leads (black) connect to each other. That’s it. Follow the color codes and there is little chance of a problem. And if a panel, a charge controller and a battery are too many components for you to handle, I would stay with pre-packaged ready to go systems.
not all small portable solar chargers is good enought. but this one got a good critic on treehugger.com
“With this portable solar panel, I charge my MP3 player, a portable amplifier, a set of battery-powered Sony surround sound speakers, a cellular phone, a digital camera, two LED lamps, a LED booklight, and a LED flashlight. If you are already positioning yourself to optimize sunlight, it is quite simple to do this. If I added a $50 solar panel, I can power two laptop computer, and have all of my audio-visual and computer devices running on renewable energy.”
Color-coding!
I *love* color-coding!
I can *do* color-coding!
Thanks for helping me get electrified.
dbg – at 18:40
I haven’t blown anything up or caught anything on fire yet. Wait a minute, that’s not exactly a true statement…
HillBilly Bill – at 21:38
I confess to my fair share of pyrotechnics back in my college days (dime packs of Black Cats on a time fuse at some frat houses), but I did it with a good old-fashioned Bic lighter, not electricity, and I did it on purpose. (I wonder what the statute of limitations is for that…) Anyway, when it comes to electricity, Easy is good. Easy is our friend.
HBB- Don’t I remember something about magic smoke????
Eccles – at 22:39
Professor, that was the incident that caused me to make a correction to my initial rash statement. I do stand corrected (again) however, I didn’t really blow anything up, just released the powerful magical smoke from a device in a spectacular and untimely fashion.
Oh, and while I’m in the confessional, there was that incident with the extra-large size backpacking stove I constructed. It would seem that the properties of a small model don’t always carry forward to a much larger unit. Something I’m sure rocket engine designers found out also.
Was that the one you tested on the driveway after the DW suggested that you do it there?
Eccles – at 11:42
Actually I decided to test it in the driveway. She noticed that there was a big fire from the bvedroom window and asked me in a rather strident tone as to what the h*ll I was doing.
You could have used the typical kid answer:
“Nothing”
Believe me, that thought crossed my mind. Since then, it has been difficult to discuss alternative means of cooking with her for obvious reasons.
I have seen postings by people who have done “test runs” to see how they will do with limited power. To simulate using their generator, they have turned off most of their circuit breakers and only used certain circuits for a limited period of time. While practice is always a good exercise, I would suggest that you actually test run your generator and make sure that it will handle the items that you plan to use all at the same time. Remember to start high surge appliances one at a time and also to keep the loads balanced.
Also, make a plan as to when you will run each appliance that you need. Get the most out of your generator time, even if that rearranges your noraml routine. If you have to run the genny to pump water or cool down the freezer, fit in some other tasks as well while you are making the power, assuming you have spare wattage. Better to have a plan now and need to tweak it later, than to try to figure it all out under stressful conditions.
If you can collect and store solar energy, try to accumulate as many essential items as possible that can make use of 12V power. Rechargeable batteries and lanterns that take hours to charge can do so easily if you have that energy stored in deep-cycle batteries.
HBB - thanks for that suggestion. Once we get ours hooked up I am planning of testing just as you say. I figure we’ll have to have it off all day, then crank it up at night to cook dinner, run the well, cool off fridge/freezer. During the day we can get by with uncooked foods and no lights.
LauraB – at 11:40
My plan is to run ours for an hour twice each day. I have found I can keep the freezer semi-functioning that way. If it is wintertime, we may need to run it more. I’ve been working out a schedule as to what we will do when to fit all we need into those time slots.
Long tasks like recharging lanterns and making bread in the bread machine will more than likley be handled by battery power.
For those who may be interested, I have done a 2 week monitoring of our 18 cuft 10 year old refrigerator-freezer using our Kill-A-Watt. It shows an average of 2.4 KW-hr per day energy consumption; lows were 2.3 on cooler days and 2.6 on hotter days (we try to use outside air wherever we can…)
For those who are thinking of off-grid power this data may be of use…
If anyone is planning on replacing their refrigerator anytime soon, it would be best to consider an energy efficient one. Browse the Energy Star listing, which shows ratings in KWhr per year.
That was me from my new Linux laptop.
I had replaced the frost free refrigerator with a SUNFROST, and that is a wonderful one for solar systems,,,,or just one deep cycle battery on an invertor. It uses only 100 watts at maximum.
Eccles -
I have a 15kw gasoline generator that is great for a week after a hurricane but eats way too much gas in the long term (1.6GPH @ HL). I have a Dewalt Pressure cleaner that has a Honda GX200 engine 6.5HP. I notice that Porter-Cable uses the same engine in their CH350IS. Would it be possible to remove the CAT pump and bolt a generator head on to my GX200?? Or if I could find a CH350IS (or another model that uses the GX200) with a bad engine and put my engine into it??
Or maybe the better question is: Can I modify my pressure washer to pump well water?? I’ve seen gasoline engine well pumps online, but I don’t know if they make anything that could be bolted on/belt driven from the GX200.
Thanks. I tried googling but they just bring up shopping links to sell me a generator or pressure cleaner.
The idea is to spend some money on this but not as much as buying a quality 3500w generator, so if the solution is $500+ it probably isn’t a solution.
Nopower -
Well, lets try to tease this apart a little. Since I’m not a “Tim the Toolman” kind of guy, I’ll just sya that if the engines are truly identical, then no problem. But if the mounting flanges and adapter plates differ even a little, then you will need to do some shade-tree machining to get everything to bolt together. And then you had better do it right to make sure that it isn’t spining out of balance or you will kill bearings or crankshaft right quick.
But the more important but more subtle question is how you control the engine RPM under load to insure that the generator head is putting out the correct line frequency. Most generator heads require 3600 RPM ± a little bit. Keeping the motor turing at that rate under changing load conditions is what the generator designer gets paid for.
Now the next question, whether you can modify the pressure washer to pump well water. It is the same question I face with the 12 volt battery driven pumps that I use to move harvested rain water around. The problem is one of depth to water. If you are trying to pull water up a pipe (or hose) using a surface mounted suction pump, which is what I would envision you using the pressure washer for, you can only suck water from a maximum depth of about 23 feet. The Fates had a real laugh-fest with me when the well drilling company measured the standing water in my well and found it to top out at 25 feet depth.
The reason for this limitation is one of physics. When you pull suction on a pipe, you reduce the air pressure within it. This reduced pressure can support a column of water of a weight equal to the reduction in air pressure. Once you have pulled a full vacuum in your pipe, there is nothing more you can do. The height of such a water column, supported by a full vacuum is about 25 feet.
That is why most drilled wells use a submerged pump down under the water. You can PUSH the water as hard as you want. But you can only PULL it a maximum of 25 feet vertical lift.
So if you have water which is closer than a 25 foot vertical lift, there are many reasonably priced pumps that will do you. Otherwise, the best bet is still to send power down to the in-ground well pump.
I don’t think water depth is a problem for me, I’m told by the well drillers that just did my neighbors well that the static water level is 10 ft. I think I’m going to go with the plan I discussed in the water prep thread of using the 220v pump to fill a large tank a couple times a month and use a slow flow 12v pump to feed the pressure tank into the house.
This should be more energy efficient now and provide me with water using less fuel in the case of an emergency.
I figured bolting a genhead onto the existing engine wasn’t really an easy solution but figured I would investigate it since it would save me significant fuel.
Thanks.
Lets see if someone can answer this one for me.
I have a generator with a 6 HP Briggs and Stratton engine and have bought a Tri-fuel conversion for it so I can use Natural Gas (when available) instead of burning precious gasoline.
I plan on putting the generator in a shed (with exhaust out a pipe to the outside) in my back yard, which will require that I bring the Natural Gas line to it. It looks like I will need about 70 or 80 feet of pipe depending on how I route it. Can I use 1/2 inch pipe or will I need to go with 3/4 inch? Can I install pipe part way, like to the edge of the house, and then have a hose that I can roll across the yard and attach when needed?
Things like natural gas installations are best left to professionals, who know all the requirements of such an installation, and all of the rules that must be followed. the penalty for doing it wrong could be a catastrophe.
AVanarts-
Not to be too blunt, but if you have to ask these questions, I strongly recommend you hire a competent plumber to run the gas line. Eccles is right, gas is no joke. And forget the hose idea!!!
AVanarts – at 18:48
If there is a complete power failure, the natural gas supply will fail also. Natural gas would be good to have for a local isolated power failure from say storm damage. But in the event of an extended long term wide area power failure there will be no natural gas.
Think of the year 1800 or so. That’s where we’ll be infrastucture wise.
I could have had natural gas brought in for free, but chose to incur a $3,000 bill for a 750 gallon propane tank instead.
However, because the price of gas (propane of natural) can vary by $1.50 per gallon between summer and winter, I think my initial expense will have paid for itself in 2 - 3 years.
I too would suggest getting a professional to run your line. Shop around. I found it was anywhere from $4.50 to $12.00 a foot to have a line installed.
BTW - even after the pandemic passes and is completely gone, the power system will be very limited. The reason being is coal, natural gas, and nuclear fueled power plants have turbines that must be kept slowly rotating even while shut down. If they are not kept rotaing the shaft will sag rendering them inoperable.
AVanarts, one of the major costs of having a plumber install underground pipe is the digging of the trench itself, so perhaps if you could find out the required depth and then rent a trencher and dig it yourself, it will save some money. Just an idea, ask plumbers to give you bids both with and without the trench already dug.
Actually, I work with Hydrogen pipelines at work all the time, so a low pressure flammable gas doesn’t seem like that much of a problem to work with. I just need to find out how much flow one can get through different size pipes at low, residential, pressure.
As for hoses, I have three 12ft hoses that were used to fill high pressure hydrogen trailers (tube trailers as we call them) so I don’t doubt that they would handle natural gas, but I wondered a bit about more flexible hoses like I have for the distribution tree on my propane tank.
Yes, if the entire grid goes down, the gas will go to, eventually. There are also neighborhood” outages that won’t take the gas out with them. One example would be an ice storm that takes out power in neighborhoods scattered around the area.
AVanarts, I too would not be afraid to tackle such a job myself, but with several caveats. I’d go with 3/4″ pipe, better flow less resistance. 3/4″ black pipe is what I have for all my natural gas appliance feeds, which feed off what looks like about a 2″ main. You should be able to ask at a really good plumbing supply shop for recommendations on pipe size for the length of run you’ll need, and if you’re smart you’ll pick their brains for any other useful tips while you’re there. You’ll likely also need a regulator that attaches in the line near the genny, your genny instructions should give you the proper size. I also would not use great lengths of the flexible hose unless it is in a REALLY sheltered (away from foot traffic, inquisitive critters and children, etc) place, because while a leak outdoors may not develop a concentration high enough to blow you up, just the loss of pressure could do bad things to your genny. All it would take is some critter to decide that your hose looks like a tasty snack and problems would arise (and yes, critters do love to chew on electrical wire and I’m sure flexible pipe as well). If you undertake this yourself just be sure to check and double-check each fitting for leaks, the fittings are really the only vulnerable point if using black pipe.
I’ve got a product called “Snoop” that I often use for leak detection, but also have a couple of electronic leak detectors available. When my new furnace was installed, they just used a mix of dishwashing detergent and water to check for leaks.
Also, I noticed that they used pipe dope to seal the pipes while I normally use teflon tape on pipe fittings. Pipe fittings are rather rare in my line of work and I don’t run into them often but sometimes need to adapt from pipe to compression or VCR fittings. Strangely enough, pipe fittings are still used sometimes on things like regulators.
AVanarts, I did a google search on “natural gas pipe sizes” and came up with this and many other links on sizing your gas pipe. Check it out.
I just bought a Brunton Solaris 26 foldable solar array. It has a 12 volt vehicle style output where I can plug in a DVD player, camcorder, etc. - that is assuming that I have teh cigarette lighter adaptor for it. If I want to be able to plug prong plugs into this solar pad and get juice, I think I need an intermediate step, correct?
Do I need an inverter with a cigarette style adaptor on one end to go into the solar pad and then the inverter will have one-two female sockets which I can plug my devices into?
Thanks a bunch.
Bumb
Solar Power Question -
You will not be very happy or successful driving an inverter directly from the array. Your best bet is to use it to charge a storage battery unit, such as one of the Xantrex packs.
You should leaf back through the previous incarnations of this thread, where this subject has been discussed extensively.
Solar Power Question;
I agree a battery would be the best means of collecting and storing solar energy (unless you are out camping/hiking). There is a matching inverter for that solar panel; http://moontrail.com/brunton-solarcontroller.php
Do not use an automotive battery; the lead plates are too thin and they would be destroyed from a few deep discharges. Look for a deep cycle battery, also discussed extensively in prior postings in this thread. Note that a deep cycle marine battery is often a compromise between auto and deep cycle, though they can be widely diverse in plate thickness. I would shop online first and look at specs.
Ok, time to bring this up again ‘cause I’ve learned just enough to probably be terribly dangerous with this solar stuff! :-)
We live in a single level condo with units on either side of us. We’re not supposed to attach anything to the exterior of the building. Now WHEN we bend the rules, we could probably mount something to the roof, but we’d have to have it “temporarily” put up there, not permanently installed (until I can get the Board to approve solar panel installation - my husband is currently the Pres, so at least the board could be a little more favorable to the idea! :-)
What I’d like to do is START with something that will help us stay off our generator so that we can use the genny for the fridge & freezer only, to extend the life of those appliances. So I think I need to be able to have something solar initially that would charge my husband’s laptop & cellphone so he can work from home, and maybe charge a Vector battery power pack sort of thing with alligater clamps & DC outlet, etc., that we can use for DC appliances and lamps or small tv, etc. I’d like to be able to gradually improve on that setup, so that I could run more appliances that way, and ultimately get to where we have a couple of nice panels in the roof that would be hardwired in somehow - I don’t need to know about that ultimate setup right now though.
I’ve looked at solar panels online & on ebay (I love ebay for comparison shopping). I’ve made a crude excel spreadsheet with info that I thought would be important for me to keep in mind from how panels I can link together, or which accessories come with a particular panel, or the cost per watt, etc.
I’ve learned that there are basically 3 types of ‘glass’: the amorphous or dual junction kind that apparently is only 7% efficient, poly-crystalline that is 13% efficient, up to the mono-cyrstalline kind that’s 20% efficient I think I read. Then there’s the thinfilm which I’ll talk about in a minute.
I’ve learned I can string panels together and I have a question about that. I understand if I count watts & string things together that I just add the watts and get a total — 2 15watt panels = 30 watts to use. But how does doubling the watts affect the length of the charge time — if I double the watts, does it cut the charge time by 50%, or decrease the charge time by maybe 75% or decrease it by only a tiny bit like 5%, making it possibly not cost effective to add additional panels?
I showed my husband different setups from a small trickle charger that you can put on the dash of a car to trickle charge the battery — I thought it might be helpful to use something like that if you’re sitting in the car running the laptop off the battery. Can you have a little 12v solar panel charging the battery while you’re also draining the battery with a laptop plugged into the cigeratte lighter?
I learned that you need a regulator on anything over 10 or 15 watts apparently even though the panel may have an integrated diode to prohibit discharging. I saw both 10 and 15 listed as a minimum to require a regulator. And I understand the concept of discharging and why I don’t want that to happen. I’ve seen regulators that have a variety of connections for 3v up to 12v and I’ve seen other things that list 12v/24v but I’ve forgotten what they were or what type of equipment I’d need them for. Are they for when I’ve strung together more than say 100 watts or something?
I’ve learned about the thinfilm flexible stuff (and my husband is now in love with the Brunton26 that folds up like a wallet & you can string together up to 3 of them (if you could afford them) for a total of 78 watts. And it says the Brunton26 will even charge in low light so that’s a very attractive feature, but how does it compare with the 3 types of glass I mentioned above? What is it’s efficiency rating?? I can’t find any info on that, or if I found it I didn’t understand it to be an answer to my question so could someone explain it to me! :-)
I also lilke the ‘briefcase’ type things for a small setup that’s portable (like for my husband’s work from home needs), but my heart is leaning toward joining 3 15 watt panels together in a semi-permanent setup, but I have no idea how we’d store such a thing other than storing it in an outside storage shed. That would be OK wouldn’t it???
I also found a setup with 12V DC 5W energy-saving light bulbs — can they be screwed into a regular 110watt light socket? I’m assuming they can’t be or the seller would probably have said AC/DC???
Now also about light bulbs — I learned about LED spotlights and I think they’re cool — can an LED lightbulb be plugged into a socket that would take the 12v light bulb mentioned above?
Ok, about this volt stuff — most of the regulators I’ve seen list 3v, 6v, 9 v, and 12v. I read somewhere that cellphones & pda need 7v. If I have an appliance that I want to charge, do I just hook up to the connector that’s larger than what my user’s manual says the appliance is, or do I have to have an additional connector or connectors that will step down to exactly what my appliance is? In other words do I hook up something that’s 7v to the 6v conector or to the 9v connector?
Whew, that’s all for now — just writing this stuff I feel again like I don’t know nothin’ ‘bout this stuff.
I can’t wait to see how “painfully confusing” it is to learn about the bigger stuff!
Oh and yeah, I know it’s better to use a deep cycle battery than a car battery! :-)
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 21:45
I’ll just chime in with what I plan to do. I have several deep-cycle batteries and I plan to buy more as soon as I can afford it. I have found that I can collect enough energy from one 15 watt panel mounted INSIDE a southern-facing window to run my laptop for a few hours each day and also charge up a lantern or two.
I’m looking for a small rolling garden cart that will fit through my front door. I plan to mount two batteries in it and attach a frame that holds two 15 watt panels. I’ll be able to take it outside during the day, move it around to keep it pointed at the sun, and bring it inside at sunset to recharge lanterns and power low-wattage items.
I’ve got six 15 watt panels mounted on the roof that feed into my battery bank, but I want to have multiple options.
I’m Workin On It -
Where to begin?
I don’t have the time to properly compose answers to everything just now, and its a little late tonight to start. if you give me a day or two, I promise I’ll start entering answers to your posting piecemeal until we are both happy that you know what you need to.
That’s great!! I need to re-read this entire thread to refresh my mind about all this stuff. It’s been a few months since I addressed this issue due to my cats deaths, so I’ll spend my time getting back up to speed on this & await your help when you have time — thanks a BUNCH!!!
HBB, that sounds like a GREAT portable setup and sort of what I’m shooting for to start with — my wish would be that if I had a car trailer, I could set up a battery bank, like you have, on the trailer & just hook up to the trailer & move it out of the storage shed and into our area of the parking lot when I needed it…..but the storage shed is in the next parking lot over, not within sight of our unit so I don’t trust having that much expensive equipment that far away from our house.
But then my husband’s not convinced that ‘going solar’ is better than going with a whole house generator (which we CAN’T DO because we can’t store fuel for a genny that big & we can’t bury anything on the property — we’re too close to the property line AND there’s no gas lines within probably 1500 feet of us and the gas co isn’t willing to run lines up here. I just think since solar is ‘free’ once you’ve bought the set-up, that it should be our main source for our electronics and lighting ‘equipment’ and the genny is fine for the cold appliances, since the cold stuff would run out about the time the genny’s fuel would!
I’m-workin’-on-it at 23:39: Check out your state laws re: solar setups. I don’t know what state you’re in, but in my state (Florida) HOA’s are not allowed to forbid solar pv panels and water heaters on the roof.
Also, there are a couple of options for mobile solar setups that we’ve been considering because it’s so expensive to convert the whole house over to solar.
Xantrex makes one that is 1,500 watts and can be recharged by solar panel(s): http://tinyurl.com/mzeav
We have our eye on this one because you can have up to 3 panels @ 80 watts, but it’s pretty expensive: http://tinyurl.com/mepw2
Hope this helps.
I forgot to mention that the Xantrex model is a good option for people in condos and apartments, assuming they have a sunny porch or balcony for recharging the panel(s). The best thing about battery power is that you don’t have to worry about storing hazardous materials in or near the home. The drawback is that batteries are limited in comparison to generators. If you’re just looking to power lights, electronics, and other low-wattage items, these gizmos will work quite well.
Meserole - The whole arena of Xantrex and other types of storage systems has been discussed extensively in the previous installments of this thread. if you are interested in some of the very good work contributed by the members of this thread, I might recommend leafing back through some of the older discussions. You may find some additional info that will help you achieve the best setup for your needs/budget.
Eccles: Thanks - I did read through the threads about a month ago, but I haven’t visited them since. Time for another look.
Two things worry me about trying to cobble together my own system, but I guess I should post my questions on the correct thread - I’ll do that now. Thanks again!
I have a few questions. Any help that anyone can provide will be very welcome!
We are looking for enough power to keep TV and DVD player, laptop, CF lighting, and maybe other items if possible, for as long as possible. We cannot afford to go solar completely because we don’t have the Sunfrost fridge/freezer, Staber washer, or even a solar water heater. Eventually we’d like to be off-grid and we will replace our appliances with the more efficient ones, but that’s not an option right now.
How difficult is it for very un-handy people with NO experience at all to cobble together something that will provide at least enough power for the above? I know that I’ll need solar panels, a charge controller, an inverter, and a battery bank.
What I can’t find an answer to is this: if you don’t have a garage or any outbuildings, and you are not allowed (HOA) to build anything, is it safe to store a battery bank on a patio that has a roof? Do you need a special enclosure?
Thanks in advance for any suggestions.
I’m-workin’-on-it – at 21:45 Do you happen to have a south facing window or patio? These can be set up very quickly. Very, Very portable, fold up small, lightweight, around 2 lbs. Very happy so far. If your hubby liked the thinfilm idea he will probably like these.
Meserole in FL – at 00:09 Yes I remember those products from previous discussions! I LOVE some of the stuff they have! I’m like a kid in a candy store around this stuff, but I don’t know what any of it ‘tastes’ like, if that’s a good analogy.
MAV, That’s like what my DH fell in love with (I think it stroked his desire to one-up the geeks on his team at work) only I didn’t remember that they came higher than the Brunton26, so I’m thrilled to see these again — this is the same type product Meserole in FL directed us to on his links….along with some cool battery packs, inverters, etc.
I’m going to doublecheck our windows when daylight comes….I think our kitchen and front door is mostly south-facing, but want to doublecheck. We have some BIG trees in the front (on common area of the condos) but some limb trimbing would help the situation emmensely.
And Meserole, I’m going to research solar in our State — I think you can get breaks on your power bill for some solar stuff, even passive, but I did NOT know that HOA’s can’t restrict your use of solar. I had researched the FCC rules for satellites years ago & even wrote the rules for installation on our property & they were adopted, but I’d never thought that it would be outside condo authority to do the solar thing…I’m excited about finding out about that!!!!
I started with the Brunton 14 http://tinyurl.com/gnpla
It seems to be enough for maintaining charges on laptop, cell/PDA and camera over a long weekend camping. But not really adequate for fast full recharges or for multiple simultaneous charging requirements I anticipate will be required with prolonged outages. It would take several good days to recharge a moderately discharged decent size deep cycle battery with the 14 W also.
I put 2 of the GSE 55 watt foldable pannels with a 210 amp hour AGM (sealed) battery and very happy with the set up at this point. Would like to add another battery at some point. I mounted the battery, 1700 watt Xantrex inverter, fuse, charge controller and a couple 12v cig lighter outlets in a plastic toolbox that has wheels and a pullout handle (like roller luggage). Works great. Will probably redo using one of the wheeled ice coolers when I get 2nd battery. Only thing I am still looking into is grounding set up. Right now I just have a heavy ground wire and a metal tent peg as a temporary set up. (Eccles, Will and HB frown).
MAV in Colorado – at 05:03
Any ground is better than none!
MAV, that’s the kind of setup I’d like & if one battery and a rolling ice chest will do the trick that’s GREAT!! As I add more sunpower, I can add more wheels — a bigger ice chest, a rolling dolley, then a Jeep trailer! (By that time we will probably have to trade the Jeep in :-) )
The fuses go with your charge controller, right? I don’t understand how they work right now…..if the control charger is plugged onto the solar panel, and the fuses are stuck onto the front of the controller, then how do you connect the appliances to the fuses? Yet another kind of specialty cord?
And when you said you “mounted” your battery in the rolling toolbox, how did you attach it? Or do you mean you just put the battery down in the bottom loose along with the other stuff, just packing it in? I’d love to see pics and probably others would too, if you have any. I did some pics on www/photobucket.com without any trouble (a surprise to me) or I could give you my email address - I don’t think it’s in my proile.
By the way, I haven’t bought my deep cycle battery yet but I have notes on what I read up on with AGM batteries, with the thickness of the cells, etc. and some brand names. Just so everyone reading this gets the information, a true deep cycle battery is different from a marine-type deep cycle battery, right? Is it because a deep cycle battery can be drained lower than a marine battery?
from the good news thread, crfmoon posted this:
crfullmoon – at 07:53 MAV in Colorado at 22:23, or, you could get a starter flickr account. (Chocolate for breakfast suddenly sounds good…)
ok, that didn’t work…the word ‘flickr’ was supposed to be a link to a place like photobucket
Fuse goes on the + lead between the battery and the inverter
Mounted the inverter to the inside of the hinged lid so when opened it gets good air flow for cooling. Drilled holes through side plastic for connectors etc. The battery just sits in bottom with a couple pieces of ridgid foam on all 4 sides to keep stable.
I don’t have any pictures of any of my preps. Unfortunately I am readying myself and the family for a possible cross country relocation so things are busy. Actually looking at all the preps and trying to imagine staying prepared for anything while undergoing a move. Trust me a major logistical challange. Most of my stuff is in containers and mobile but there is LOTS of it!
HB- what about those lightning things that look like a ballast sort of thingy. Supposedly after they take a few hits the plastic cracks and thats how you know to replace em? Different than a ground I know.??
MAV in Colorado – at 02:26 I checked & yes, my front of my house faces almost entirely South. I thought it did, but realized it might have been a little Southeast.
I would certainly dread moving my preps, that’s for sure! My duffles alone would draw suspicion! I learned all about solar battery chargers today….not ALL but enough to decide that I can probably spend a little money tomorrow on one now & then get another one later! I need to be able to charge a LOT of C’s for my battery TV!!! :-)
I’ve got another question, that may not have a specific answer. You know the talk about the solar flares in 2011 causing satellite transmission problems……..how do things like that affect solar panels, or do they affect them at all? I’m imagining something like an electrical surge in your power line, but it might not do any damage to panels at all. Just curuious.
I’m-workin-on-it
Unless you intend to be operating your solar panels in orbit, attached to a spacecraft, then most of the hazards associated with solar flares will not trouble you. While you are admiring the pretty auroral display that the arriving charged particles excite in the upper atmosphere, your panels should be untroubled down at ground level.
Now then, an Electromagnetic pulse from a nuclear detonation or from an E-bomb, and all bets are off. But then, we will all have much greater problems under those conditions anyway.
MAV in Colorado – at 17:48
I was going to ask you how the inverter got enough air flow to keep it cool!
Not sure what lightning thingies (that’s an industry term) you are talking about. I’m using my house ground for my main inverter and the rolling one will be a DC charging station so I’m going without a ground on it. I saw a kids wagon this weekend that would work really well. Of course this is a fair weather only setup.
Eccles – at 00:38
:-)
At my house, with my luck, I could be the first to experience solar flare damage to my panels! Heck, I think I could make it flood in the desert sometimes. Thanks for putting those fears to rest!
Mesarole wrote:
> How difficult is it for very un-handy people with NO experience at all to cobble together something that will provide at least enough power for the above? I know that I’ll need solar panels, a charge controller, an inverter, and a battery bank.
See the small solar pv system kits listed on my webpage. These have everything you need (though normally you have to provide a battery (bank)). Also see the PV design book on the same page.
> What I can’t find an answer to is this: if you don’t have a garage or any outbuildings, and you are not allowed (HOA) to build anything, is it safe to store a battery bank on a patio that has a roof? Do you need a special enclosure?
An enclosure is always preferrable, as it keeps children and animals (and adults) from accidentally harming themselves. Outdoor storage in FL is not going to be much of an issue; battery capacity for lead-acid batteries is temperature dependent, though mild weather in FL should not significantly change said capacity. Make sure to vent the enclosure to preclude the accumulation of hydrogen gas.
Eccles-
Just got a HO alternator on Ebay for around $175 delivered- 120 amps at 850 RPM and 200 at 2000 RPM. Some outfit in Tennessee; prompt ship.
Well, that’s at least closer to the 150 amps you wanted. Are you going to fit it out with a belt drive/turbine now?
Nah, no turbine. got an electric start gas motor for $100 that will spin the alternator on a belt drive. Alternator even came with a pulley so all I have to do is machine a driver pulley from the junk yard to fit the motor and away we go, an autostart power backup to the battery bank. Set that to a voltage sensor/controller and when the bank voltage drops, motor starts and instant recharge!
Thanks Will! I’ll start doing my research on this asap.
For information of all- Just got my 2500W Aims inverter. Nice looking unit. Will try it out tomorrow maybe or next week and report back. Am going to put it on my pickup to run power tools for now.
LMWatBullRun – at 16:19
I was impressed by my Aims inverter and have been happy with it after a minor magic smoke release with the first unit.
LMW - Is that 2500W static or surge?
2500 W sustained, I forget but I think the surge is 3500? Anyway, I have to get some 2/0 cable and connectors. Might use three strands of #2 instead.
I have an AIMS( 2500 watt) on a secondary solar system at my place. I can run an 8 inch circular saw on it. Have also run drills and sander. Not fancy or heavy duty but works fine. Kelly
Anyone here know anything about a company called United Solar Ovonic and its products? They opened a plant not too far from here this year. I ahve been thinking of paying them a visit and checking if they might sell their products locally at a discount or any other way to get a price break.
Happy batteries to all.
Settled finally on a VDC BatteryMinder 8/4/2 amp microprocessor controlled, three stage, desulpherator Model 12248, battery charger, made in Cheena, of course, for a hundred’n eight bucks delivered. I tried to get the temp sensor withit but will have to locate that elsewhere as Northern Tool did not list it. Quick turnaround. It comes with both ring terminals and clipons, and a autostyle inline 15amp fuse.
The only problem is that all Northern orders come with a complete catalog and now I want everything ….
I have a pair of 100 amphr AGMs, (Interstate DCS-100L at $220 each) brand new, named Dan and Charlie, that were 75% charged separately on an old two-stage agm charger to 12.6v or so. Now the batts are tied together and hooked up to the new charger.
We shall see what happens. Using a reasonable RadShack multi Digi-volt-meter for voltage readings. And keeping a log.
Got heavy duty book shelf supports to use as my panel mounts. Panels still in their box (3 GE50s), Solar Boost MPPI 2000E charge controller look’n pretty even just sitt’n there.
Will be using automobile link-fuses and holders for my fusing, not yet purchased, but did get my cable stuff and lugs out to make the batt harness.
Moving very slowly, trying to get it right.
Pi
Peers in awe at Pi Tainer, slinks away to practice with flint, iron striker and tinder …
Pi-Tainer
The only known method of counteracting the evil effects of a Northern Tool catalog is a proprietary process known only to me. I have successfully managed to avoid buying anything from them for several months.
Of course, the method requires that you be on a tightly restricted budget with no room for any unscheduled spending of any sort. That, plus tearing up the catalog with great ceremony and fanfare in front of spouse and family.
(Note - Like all dependancy diseases, please be sure to have several alternative “fixes” stashed in several places known only to you. Just in case of an emergency or a pandemic or something.
overhears Prof Eccles and scuttles off, flint in hand, to Google Northern Tool
Eccles, Good to have you here. It’s been a long time since I’ve seen your posts. If you remember I have a CPAP or more appropriately a bi pap (though I do not use the bi- part). I was expecting my DH to come up with solutions should we have to go off grid. My DH is the sweetest guy around, he is the most fabulous man I know. We have been married for almost 40 years though I am only 32. However…he doesn’t like to think about bad things…and he is a procrastinating DH. Can you guess where this is going? Can you tell me what kind of set up to get (no genny and don’t want one) to help me with at least 3 hours of sleep a night. Yes I need more but at least 3 hours so I don’t have to irritate the people I might have to live with. But more importantly, so they don’t irritate me! I have about 600 dollars to spend. Can you be specific about sizes and brand names? Things that you might have. I can spend more if I have to over a few months. I love CPAP.com BTW and I love my CPAP almost as much as I love my DH, I’m sure you understand how important it is in my life.
Thanks you so much Eccles and I love your sense of humor.
I forgot to tell you that my DH is also not very handy. Last year he changed to batteries in the flashlight and it worked the first time! We were so proud.
“The only problem is that all Northern orders come with a complete catalog and now I want everything”
Not only do I want darn near everything in that catalog, due to the perilous situation we are preparing for I feel like I NEED most of it as well. You should have seen me salivating over the picture of the 21KW PTO generator that comes ready to hook up to a tractor. Of course I would need the trailer to haul it also……
Okay now I know I’ve gone over the deep end - I just looked over Northern Tool (thanks to you men) and I’m all a flutter! Forget Nordstrom on-line! I’ve been fantasizing about a new chain saw and some other bits of equipment we are sorely lacking. Thanks! Guess what DH is getting for x-mas?
LauraB - If I were you, I would ask for one of the earth movers with acccessory back-hoe digger attachment. You never know when you need to dig a hole and drop someone (I mean someTHING) in.
I want a couple of boxwood stoves, but I want a house in a different location to put them in; somewhere off the travel arteries, near hydroelectric power and some Canadian fluwikians…
PBQ - Kind of picking up on the conversations on the old CPAP thread, I can tell you what I personally have for use with my own Respironics machine.
First off, you need the 12V power cord for it.
Then, I have several 12V power packs which include a SLAB rechargeable battery. I normally recharge them from the wall power, which is how I keep them ready for the inevitable weather related power outage. I also have a number of solar panels (you don’t need them all for this task) that can recharge the pack in about one sunny day. Then you need a device called a charge controller to go between the solar panels and the power packs.
The set-up requires on construction or wiring expertise, you merely plug one thing into the next into the next.
If you wish, I can provide specific make and model numbers for all of these things, but I can’t guarantee that you’ll find each and every one of them still available. Things change quickly out there.
Anyhow, 3 of my packs can run the CPAP for about 6 hours, 1 can run it for about 8 hours and 1 can run it for about 12 hours. So each of them can provide more than 1 night of coverage if you are careful with it.
“Got heavy duty book shelf supports to use as my panel mounts. Panels still in their box (3 GE50s), Solar Boost MPPI 2000E charge controller look’n pretty even just sitt’n there.”
I would suggest checking the panels out for hidden damage and also just to make sure they work. You don’t have to mount them, I just took mine out on the deck and pointed them toward the sun with a meter on the leads.
Also, a less expensive spare charge controller will be invaluable if something happens to the one you have. Isn’t it fun to produce your own power?
Did the spare thing on the charge controller, not a MPPI but a nice little solid Sunsaver 10.
http://www.affordable-solar.com/morningstar.sunsaver.10.12v.charge.controller.htm
These are also the folks that I bought all my solar gear from.
three GE50s 12v solar panels at $300 each
The Morningstar Sunsaver 10(amp)−12v backup charge controller at $55
Solar Boost 2000E MPPI 25 amp 12v charge controller with box $329.
two batteries AGM 100amphr each at 12v $220 each.
No shipping as the dealer/warehouse is local.
The website is complete, I recommend it (Affordable-Solar.com)
I paid their listed price and have no bizdeals with them.
I put in the dollar amounts so reader can see this aint an inexpensive project.
Next a low watt true sine wave inverter and a 1000 watt (almost true) modified sine wave inverter. Soon I will be close enough to design the load (backwords is me, designing the load last!)
Will test the panels, HillBill, a very good idea.
I forget to relist the VDC Batt charger at a hundred bucks from Northern Tool, check out these specs at http://www.vdcelectronics.com/batteryminder_12248.htm .
Pi
So, a way belated response to Eccles horror (many generations of this thread ago) at my 75 watt kitchen light: have gone through most of my house with a kill-o-watt measuring usage, and replaced the obvious suspects with CF bulbs and power strips to eliminate phantom power usage. Still cannot account for about 1/3 of my usage. Hmm. Thanks, Eccles, for the push to get started. The next steps look pretty complex and expensive. :)
There are some power draws that are not obvious, such as the doorbell transformer, ‘smart’ kitchen appliances that drain energy while not in use, standby on TV/VCR/DVD/etc, power cubes you might have missed, and so forth.
Thanks, Will. I have the TVs and computers etc on power strips that are OFF (thanks to mr kill-o-watt). Checked out and accounted for all of the kitchen stuff. It’s pretty stupid, luckily. Hmm on the doorbell power - not sure how to measure that — any suggestions? It’s an old unit from the 1940′s, like the Avon chimes. Basically have about 8kwh unaccounted for. Maybe we’re powering a neighbor’s house. :-)
Blackbird - Congrats on running around with the Kill-a-watt meter. As for where the rest of the power is going, there are some non-obvious ones. If you are on a well pump, then it will consume lots of power. Even more if you have some drips in the house, making it run more frequently than it should. If you DO have a well pump, make sure the pressurization setup in the header tank is correct, or else the well pump will have to run nearly continuously during showers, etc.
Electric water heater?
How about gas stove with electric ignition. Hillbilly Bill ran into a case where the gas stove used a 500W glow bar during baking, which actually made it a half electric oven.
As Will suggests, phantom load due to power cubes and plugged in electronics can be fairly major now, but it sounds like you have that one covered.
Backwoods Solar (www.backwoodssolar.com). I have purchased products from this outfit for over seven years. I have no business interest with them other than being a customer. They seem to be knowledgeable, and their catalog provides easy to understand descriptions of alternate energy systems.
Could I insert a quick question about solar power? I have not investigated this as an option at all because of living in the gray, cloudy Pacific Northwest among huge evergreen trees. Our home and property gets very little sunlight and past attempts to use solar powered landscaping lights, etc., have been total failures. So am I correct in my assumption that there’s not much use in pursuing information about solar energy? If I’m not, then I need to get busy and educate myself. (After reading a number of other posts here, I realize this is undoubtedly the dumbest question posted, but I’d appreciate an answer, as I don’t know enough to trust my own judgment and am just ready to start addressing the alternative power issue.) Thanks.
Genoa – at 14:35 You might find some interesting information on this site. If you can find a little dot near your location just click on it and you will be able to see information about a currently operating solar installation near you.
This one shows the 2006 output from an installation on 78th St. in Vancouver, WA. This installation is practically across the street from where I work, so I drive by it almost every day.
Sorry, it looks like it reverts back to the “day” values when you go to that link. You can click on Day, Week, Month, Year, or Since Installation, to see how much it generates at various times. I think the “Year” is the most interesting, since you can see the variation between seasons.
ahh! my fist month in a house is done (Always lived in flats before) and I am getting some knowledge about heating a hole hose that is also poorly insulated. The house is aprox 80–90 years old, and have some very smart construction. The chimney is in the center, and almost all rooms have a chimney part in part of the wall, this is very important. the chimney is made of solid bricks, not that new fancy Leca air-filled concrete, this is important because the heath stores well in bricks, but the modern stuff isolates actually meaning that more of the heath will go to the crows.
The wood oven has 3 out of 4 important things, 1 its glass in the front, so you can get heat quickly when cold. 2 it has a convection system, dragging cold air from the low, flushing it out as hot air above (to make this more effekttive during daytime I have mounted a small ventilator to blow even more for better distribution of heath in the rooms. 3 it has the brick fundament along with the chimney to store heath over the nigh, so the house will not get bad-cold in the morning. the only thing missing is the possibility to kook on top of it. (but if I make a aluminum box and places it into the space where the hot air arises I will probably be able to make bread there. we uses one large shopping bag of wood EACH DAY.. the wood is poor type from fast growing pine, the wood from leaf trees are much better. So in a black out we would do just fine, I got a kerosene camping stove for cooking, ( and today I bought a cheap plastic hand pump for well water just in case, the electric pump goes nighty..)
But its still some rooms that is cold, (in a not very comfortable way), and my electric bill still scares me, so I am doing some easy tricks to save and gain heath/electricity. Fist ALL bulbs are replaced with fluorescence (aprox 80% saved) and LED bulbs for the light that has to be on all night (saves aprox 99%). The LED bulbs also gives me security in a blackout, I will only need a small inverter (they uses 230ACV) to have light for weeks maybe months with my car battery. hooked up in regular lamps, with regular extension cords,
For the shower I have what we call a “sawing shower head” it guarantees that only 6 liters (1,6 gal) is used pr minute. Ordinary showers uses 20 liters (5,3 gal) this is a huge saving, and comfort is brilliant. Its important that this “head” mixes air with water to be comfy, a reduction in water only is just bullshit. Make sure that this is the function, sine many “saver showers” only limits water flow, and that is the equivalent to half open water-flow.. In a blackout I will use a simple 12v small camping pump shower, with hot water from a bucket. costs abuts 12$ in all caravan/camping stores.
Windows, I have double windows of old type, they all have isolation bands preventing leaks. The Northern windows have two curtains, one is a ordinary white cotton that is a little thick. behind that I have some special curtains that I fasten in the evenings when its dark, They are made of thin white cotton,a layer of some insulating materials 2 mm thick) that has a metallic coating ( facing inwards, it reflects heath back into the room) and some cotton again on the outer side. This I just sew into a “sandwich” and has some rubber bands to fasten tight across the windows. The best would be to have this as a roller curtain, for easier removal.
The insulating material may be bubble wrap, or white Styrofoam film typically used to wrap electronics in when you shop. The metallic is very effective and important. I got mine from typical cover for car-windows that is used to prevent icing. The metallic emergency blankets available is also the right material.
Well after all this saving my bill should be nice.. but not nice enough.. I need to harvest some more free energy.
Solar power, its free, and its there very often even in mid winter where I live..(very few are aware of how effective it is in northern climates. Most homeowners now pay aprox 3000$ a year for energy here.. (since the privatization of the power-plants, the prices have risen due to energy shortness everywhere)
For 3000$ you can get a hell lot of solar-power! The payoff wil be juste a few years, and after that its free, free!) Forget about heath-pumps, they will after the payoff continues to cost you money, and after 10–15 years you can be sure the hole shit is broken..AND the medium used is not harming the ozone layer anymore, in exchange they started using a gas that is one of the most powerful greenhouse gasses, That means a leak will be just as bad as a thousand cars on the road for years! Solar is the key, it lowers energy cost for heating and hot water with 40–60%.
And if done correctly (with solar electric for the controllers) also will give you that emergency independence needed in a blackout crisis. Order it now, and the professionals companies will fix it quick, or just buy the high efficient collector and do a DIY self solution for the heath storage and distribution system.
well, I don´t own my house so I cant invest in any of this, and I am not allowed to make holes in walls etc, so I have to do simpler, Wenetian blinds.. aluminum ones, place them in every south facing window, they are cheap, and needs to be black on the side facing out. The inner side is preferably metallic or white. A spray-paint can takes care of that.
this will increase the windows effect as solar-collectors, giving you some heath during daytime, Not enough for keeping a house warm in winter, but it surly helps. :-)
Planned: how to cheaply build a solar-collector that heaths air for distribution, with cheap materials.Using the existing vents on the house, And my experience with it.
sorry for double posting. This was more suited tread. Ps. bad sidescrolll here.
Urdar, what’s the idea with the venetian blinds? I would think you want full sunlight while you can get it. I understand blocking the windows at night to keep the heat in, but don’t get the blinds thing.
Your place sounds good! You’ve done a lot in a short time. Here’s a thought, because you have been so thorough about conservation: How about draperies over the doors that open to unheated spaces or to outside, the way they show in movies about the middle ages? Then you can sort of sneak out without such a big exchange of air.
blackbird,
Can I assume that you’ve measured the power draw on your items and estimated the average duration they are drawing power? Could the estimations be rechecked? One way to check sometimes is to turn everything off that you are aware of, then go see what the power meter is registering. If it is an intermittent load, then this doesn’t always work. If you find there is indeed a phantom draw, then check how many watt hours are being used in a minute (with a timepiece). You can then turn off circuit breakers one at a time until you find the phantom. Sometimes, there are more than one other phantom, hence the need to measure the draw. Once you find the circuit breakers that the phantom loads are on, so sleuthing and/or deduction should help you determine the source of the load.
Jane: Udar wrote: black on the side facing out. The inner side is preferably metallic or white. A spray-paint can takes care of that. This will increase the windows effect as solar-collectors, giving you some heath during daytime, Not enough for keeping a house warm in winter, but it surly helps. :-)
Same principal as self-made solar heaters shown on another thread regarding winter heat - basically using anything to suck up solar heat.
LauraB, but the blinds don’t have any mass to absorb the heat. Just because they are black doesn’t mean that the heat is multiplied in any way, does it? Aluminum blinds would cool off very quickly. I’d rather have the sun coming into the room onto a container garden of sprouts and a black-painted jug of water and my lap, maybe a black blanket over me while I knit. The sun would also be good shining on a drying rack of wool socks.
Painting the blinds black on one side will not do much more (if anything) that simply letting the sunlight come directly into the house. Many passive solar homes will use masonry or water containers for thermal storage to absorb excess heat for reradiation at night. If you want to capture extra solar energy other than what’s already coming through your window, use a solar window heater. There are many other passive solar projects most people can do.
I’ve been following this thread on and off since it’s conception. Thanks everyone for all your contributions, even if I didn’t follow all of them.
I have a question that I’m not sure if it should go here or on a new thread….
Given the potential for intermittent power, including surges, brown outs….what measures would you recommend we take to protect our equiptment and appliances. I remember somewhere a while back someone recommending that once the power does come back on to wait 10–15 min before you plug anything in again. Should we unplug everything as opposed to turning it off? At one point Eccles spoke said he’d write about surge protectors, did I miss that? I remember reading the info on about.com (?) , good info but… so what about if we’re in a brown out? what would you recommend we use/don’t use, plug in/unplug.how to make the best use of what is available…for all us energy challenged people can anyone write out “best practices/recommendations” for the potential what if’s?
I hope all this hasn’t already been addressed and I’m still not sure this is the place to put this. Thanks for all your advice!
For computers and electronics a good UPS is probably the ticket. APC makes such and I have had good luck personally and professionally with them. You may also want to install a surge protector too….
Thanks for the suggestions, Eccles and Will.
Can I assume that you’ve measured the power draw on your items and estimated the average duration they are drawing power?
Yes have done that for most items in the house (it’s an ongoing project — for things like the refrigerator that cycle on and off I’ve left it plugged in for 24 hours to get good enough sample size), and will re-check as you suggest. Also like the idea of turning everything off and looking at the meter.
Eccles, I have no well or gas stove, sadly. Have not checked the power the gas furnace draws for the blower or air filter, yet. Elec stove that I can’t measure directly because the plug’s too big but I’m estimating 1–2kw per hour of use (?). AO Smith electric water heater — yes that is a suspect plus a candidate for replacement because it’s getting on in years. That and an electric clothes dryer account for the bulk of the known usage.
On the plus side, thanks to this wiki and Al Gore for gently hitting me over the head about things I know I should be doing, I estimate savings of 4.5kwh per day:
power strips turned OFF when not in use for TVs, VCR, DVD, satelite box, cd/radio I didn’t even listen to, computers, routers & DSL modem;
rearranging light usage and switching to CF bulbs where they make sense (not on dimmers, used for more than a few minutes of time, etc);
unplugging a hugely power-hog printer I don’t use but once per month or so.
I will figure this out!
blackbird – at 00:06
A natural gas or propane water heater is good alternative when you replace your electric one. Mine barely raised my gas bill but cut my electric bill almost in half.
blackbird,
A solar hot water heater is a good alternative in most instances to replacing any hot water heater. What area to you live in?
HBB and Will, whoops the water heater’s a gas one (my typo error, probably due to displaced guilt over having an electric clothes dryer) but I am still going to look into replacement. It’s an older unit, and newer technology including solar is on my radar, so to speak. :-)
Fusing your system.
Stopped in at RadioShack and picked up a miniblade 3amp replacement fuse for a 12volt power feed in my car. Asked the guy if they had the fuse holders, they do.
Both the miniblade and the regular blade inline fuse holders are store stock. I think these are the same style holders as the Northern Power inline fuses on their 15watt panels.
MiniBlade holders are 12 gauge wired, rated to 30 amp and 36volt. Regular blade holders are about 14 gauge, rated to 20 amp and (I assume) also 36 volt.
Fuses come in 3amp to 30 amp. Cost is a couple of bucks each for holders and for threepacks of fuses.
Pi
did this thread get abandended?
May Have been but I see no reason why we could not start it up again, What did you have in mind?
Have any of you had a problems with those CF bulbs?
I had one basicly explode the other night. Thank goodness I was sitting about 5 feet away at the time. Blew the bulb part completely away from the metal base. That landed on the table, didn`t totally break, just a bit at the top where it makes that turn. Socket still in the lamp. Set the lampshade on fire.
I did have the presence of mind to unplug lamp before dousing the flames with my ever present cup of coffee.
If I had been in another room or asleep, and had left the lamp on, I would be looking for a new home.
I called the 1–800 number on the package, they are supposed to send me a mailer to sent the offending bulb back to them. They said that I did nothing wrong in it`s use.
I spent the next hour changing out all those CF bulbs with regular ones. Scared me.
I’ve been using CF’s all over my house for at least 5 years. Used them in some applications for longer than that.
In the beginning I had some that didn’t seem to last long, but that’s the first that I’ve heard of one exploding and starting a fire. Sure hope I never hear of it happening again.
I’m glad you were there to catch it.
.
Solar flares predicted for midday today (in News Diary on FW2). Any advice from our gurus?
NASA’s prdiction for the effects of the solar flare was far less dramatic (I receive email notices of unusual events and I did receive one yesterday about the eruption of Sunspot 930). My emphasis added: “Sunspot 930 erupted again this morning, producing a strong X3-class solar flare. The blast triggered an ongoing radiation storm and probably hurled a coronal mass ejection (CME) toward Earth. Auroras are possible when the CME arrives on Dec. 14th or 15th. The radiation storm is of moderate intensity and, unless it strengthens greatly, poses no threat to astronauts orbiting Earth onboard the International Space Station or the space shuttle. The astronauts are protected by the walls of their spacecraft as well as by Earth’s magnetic field.” by Dennis C
So maybe it’s nothing to worry about.
.
Cactus- I have been using CF lamps for about 14 years, since the early days of them, and I have never experienced nor heard of one exploding like that. That is certainly a scary prospect, as you don’t normally think you need to be present when you are running an electric light.
Could you post (or e-mail me, address is in profiles) the manufacturer of the lamps? I am just curious to see whether it is one of the long time market participants, or one of the many new cheaper brands currently flooding into the market.
Thanks.
Eccles — 28 December 2006, 23:35
Hi Eccles nice to hear from you. This may not be the proper thread for this question so if you would like to reply on the old radio thread please feel free.
I was wondering if you had time to give us your rcomendation for a smaller inexpensive radio for say under 300$ that would provide the best reception in the AM/FM/SSB short wave bands. I know you were looking into the Sanjens quite a while back and I am curious what you came up with. Thanks
Bump
Question for all you electricity gurus: I obtained one of those portable battery packs on freecycle that has the ability to jump-start your car, has D/C plug-ins, built-in light, etc. It came without the A/C to D/C wall adapter charger, so I wrote the mfr. to get the specs so I could replace it. The mfr. says to use a 12v, 800ma charger, but the battery in the thing (it IS the original battery) says it has a charging voltage of 13.5–15V, and maximum initial charging current of 2.1 amps. Is there some reason why the battery specs don’t match the charger specs? Would it hurt anything to get a charger that matches the battery specs? Thanks!
.
.
Sailor- I have actually had my head buried in other areas of endeavor for quite a while. In a week or two, I’ll try to start re-visiting the cheap but good radio issue and see what we can come up with. I suspect I’ll open a new thread for the subject.
Sailor- I have actually had my head buried in other areas of endeavor for quite a while. In a week or two, I’ll try to start re-visiting the cheap but good radio issue and see what we can come up with. I suspect I’ll open a new thread for the subject.
Kim- Where to begin. The question you ask is certainly not one which has a simplistic answer.
As I do not know what the inner circuitry of your power unit looks like, I’ll post a generic (and probably wrong for you) answer.
The battery inside the unit is almost certainly a hefty (or not so hefty)SLAB battery (Sealed lead-acid). The fact that they specify limiting it to less than 2.1 amps initial charging current suggests to me that the battery that they used is a 5–7 amp-hr capacity battery, which comes in as a not-so-hefty unit.
In general, when charging a SLAB battery, one needs to apply a voltage of at least 13.6 volts to achieve any sort of effective charging rate. A maximum charging voltage of 14.4–14.8 volts is mandated to prevent battery damage, except that a heavily depleted battery, when given that high an intial charging voltage will draw too much current, resulting in potential battery damage.
The limit of 800 ma is the way the manufacturer insures that the battery does not incur such damage, by making it impossible for the charger to deliver excessive current.
Now we get to the issue of the wall cube “charger”. There are two varieties of those in general circulation, regulated and unregulated. The regulated variety would produce a steady 12 volts and not provide a sufficient voltage to do much charging. The unregulated variety will actually deliver a higher than 12V voltage, with the output voltage dropping with increased current draw until at full current (800ma) it decreases to the 12V rating. In my own personal opinion, for my own purposes, I would think that such a cube is a bit wimpy for the pack you have.
The reason the manufacturer specifies such a flimsy charger is so that if you leave the pack plugged in longer than the specified recharge interval, you don’t end up destroying the battery or burining the house down.
Much more detail to go into, but I am out of time for just now. if you have more specific questions on this matter, just ask. (Folks who are familiar with me know what will happen if you ask for more detail.. You’ve been warned).
Eccles
Sorry,haven`t looked at this thread in awhile.
It was a GE bulb.I have mailed the the offending bulb along with the socket as I couldn`t get the metal part out of it to GE.( They sent me a prepaid mailer and a $10 coupon :-),and offered to replace the lamp,which I had already fixed) I am trying to get my nerve up to put them back in lamps.
Cactus-
That certainly causes me to consider whther I wish to place the GE branded CF’s that I have in stock into service. It sure doesn’t sound like the GE I knew years ago.
The questions that I have about the lamp which exploded concern: 1) How long had it been in service 2) Was it being run in a base-down position or some other orientation. 3) Was it exposed to air circulation or was it in some way enclosed 4) Did the other ones you removed from service have any unusual appearances or sounds associated with them when you removed them from service, or while still in service?
Thanks for letting us know about this issue. It is one that has definitely gotten my interest.
Eccles, thanks for the info. Unfortunately, it is no longer really needed, since DH decided to buy a new battery for it and install. Let’s just say that within a couple hours we had what had been a perfectly fine battery pack in pieces and beyond repair (don’t ask). But, now we do have a swell brand new SLAB 12V 7amp hr battery and the cute little jumper cables that he salvaged out of it. Think it would blow up the battery to charge it with our computer-controlled multi-voltage battery charger (it’s what we use for charging our deep cycle battery at the cabin)? DH believes that he can carry it on his ATV to give it a jump start if necessary. Or, do we now have a $30 paperweight? Thanks!
With a new SLAB, you certainly have more than a paperweight. Just reealize that a 7 amp hr battery doesn’t have enough OOMPAH to turn over a car or truck engine on its own. If your vehicle battery is down to where it is too weak to start, but still has something there, this will give you a few seconds of good cranking to try to get things running. It won’t last forever.
I have found, in my own stable of batteries that the 19 amp hr unit that I have can actually turn a car over on its own. The 11′s are OK, and the 9′s are about the same as what I said the 7 will do for you.
In charging the 7 amp hr battery, just remember to set the smart charger not to exceed 2 amps charging current.
I suspect it will start an ATV if needed.
.