I was in New York during a so-called “storm of the century.” It may have been a disaster in more northerly states, but in New York State, I found it was more instructive than devastating. I wanted a bag of Doritos to “ride out” the storm. The stores were packed with people trying to buy 6 month supplies of food to ride out the potentially week-long “storm of the century.” I went to a 7–11, no line, got my bag of Doritos and a pack of Suzy-Q’s. I went home and as the “storm of the century” raged, I noticed the birds taking baths in a very cold stream, preening and generally acting as if nothing unusual were happening. Well…
Do you notice how animals survive through blizzards? How Eskimos/Inuits survive WITHOUT electricity? How our ancestors (speaking as an American) went from one end of this continent to the other with a rifle, some pemmican (pioneer version of the nutrition power bar) and some tobacco? THERE WAS NO POWER GRID! Yes, people will die if the grid goes out, due to a combination of life-saving medical devices going down, of fires when some try to heat their homes and accidentally torch them instead, of the ravages of disease (if we assume a pandemic) and lack of food/medical supplies, of social breakdown and its attendant mayhem. But on this site, that people will die in a pandemic, if it happens, does not deter us from trying to tell the unprepared of ways to save themselves. The “power grid” thread is full of gloom and doom. WHAT SUGGESTIONS DO YOU HAVE to help people survive such a catastrophe? Generations have lived their lives without power and so can we. Yes, many will not listen, but many will not listen to us about prepping, either. This thread should be available to help people who will help themselves to survive. What do you know that will save someone? I am from southern California originally, so I am not much use here, but the more experienced among us should contribute to something that northerners can put into a pamphlet that could be handed out, much as the impressive flu flyer that InKy put together can be handed out to those who will heed the warning. How about it? Here’s a start:
What other ideas are there to save people from the cold if the grid goes down? [+Your advice may save a life.+} Thanks!!!
Yes, editing notwithstanding, YOUR SUGGESTIONS MAY SAVE A LIFE!
Any way you get your clothing damp could be disastrous. Sweating for example.
Wear layers, innermost should be something that will wick moisture away from skin.
Sleep with your kids,spouse,etc. in the same sleeping bag so you can help warm each other. And have the family dog join in. There was a reason for Three Dog Night. LOL.
Drink warm drinks with a kick of spices to help get metabolism going.
Sorry, but BBRWFK is about the worst thing to help keep you warm. Alcohol will give you the illusion of warmth, but will dilate blood vessels, and you will loose heat.
Wear a hat,even to bed, we loose a lot of heat from our heads.
stay in bed, no one can frece to death in a well stuffed bed, as long as they got food. .. a camping stove is all what you will need if staying in bed is not an option… All have to remember that people sleep ooutdoors in the arctic during winter just for fun. All you need is a good sleeping bag (or a bed.. with extra woll blankets).. and a warm hat on your head..
power is more esential for preparing food..
Go to your library & read books about mountain men/trappers/pioneers, etc. It is absolutely aamzing how they endured—especially the mountain men. Most of the time they just slept on the ground—w/trees boughs under them if they were lucky —and wrapped up in a buffalo robe—if they had that warm of a covering. We modern-day people are so weak companred to them. We have become too spoiled—we shake & shiver if we have to walk 100 feet to the mailbox in the winter whereas they walked hundreds of miles AND worked in icy streams!! Being cold is partly in the mind— we have to program ourselves/our minds differently if things came to having to deal with heating problems.
Cotton is not your friend in cold conditions. If you are chopping wood or engaged in cold weather excersise, wearing 100% cotton can increase the risk for hypothermia. Shop online for clothing made from synthetic fibers. Try REI http://tinyurl.com/hbnok or visit your local sporting goods store.
Mylar sleeping bag liners are excellent to put inside a sleeping bag or to use with blankets and they are inexpensive.
Put a tent up around your bed or sleeping bag.
I have a hand made “quilt”. It was made with an old wool army blanket and has a “space blanket on top of that- then cotton padding. It is the warmest one I have. The other thing is having a “soft” mattress so your body “sinks in” instead of just flat on top with air gaps between you and the mattress. Night caps work- you loose 15% of your body heat out of an uncovered head (so I am told).
Another thing is not to fight nature. Don’t try to stay up late into the night. Go to sleep when it is dark- wake up when it gets light. You sleep more and use less fuel/calories that you will need during the day.
If your house has decent insulation, and you have South facing windows, make sure that they are clean. The solar heat gain, even in the middle of winter can be enormous. Here in PA, we have had many winter days when the house became overheated just through solar gain. Learn to “operate” your house to collect heat during the day, and to preserve it at night.
We learned the hard way this summer when we lost power for a few days during a heat wave - the basement can stay quite comfortable without power. It was teh only place in teh house we could sleep - the rest of the house was an oven. The earth is a great insulator. Only problem is darkness!
If you have access to hot water, fill a Nalgene water bottle or something similar and put it in your sleeping bag/ bed.
You can do the same with hot cols, put them in a pot, wrap the pot with a towel and put it in your bed.
Stuff your clothes in the sleeping bag/bed so you have warm clothes to wear the next morning. Don’t sleep in your clothes, you will be warmer in your sleeping bag without clothes.
Buy a case of hand/foot warmers just in case. Freshly cooked potatos in your pocket will keep your hands warm.
I swear by having a couple of real sheep skin in my bed :)
I like many people with back issues prefer to sleep on the floor. When I sleep in a regular bed for a few days I seem to get sciatica, which is releived if I sleep again on the floor. I use a pad and a sheepskin to sleep on, and since I like a wall against one side I bought a baby cot bumper to keep it warmer. Probably will use more underpadding of quilts above and below if the heat fails, plus silver sheet. As is I prefer to sleep when nite falls and wake when light breaks. Now the only thing is changing from nite clothes to day layering while shivering. Gets the blood pumping. I’m curious how long I can go without turning on the heat or using electricity once winter arrives in November. So its really 5 months of cold before all the snow melts at the bottom of my street. It’s April before that all is gone. One year I put silvered sheeting on some windows. Think this is the year to put this around cardboard and insert it on some windows as a shield against drafts.Plus make bean filled snakes to keep drafts from under the outside doors.I was going to make some ugly animals to rival those in stores. Their called Uglies and cost 20$ Thought it would be fun to make these weird creatures. If they turn out well I might give a few away to the little ones on my christmas list.On my next run to Home Depot or Lowes will see what classes they offer on this subject of retaining heat indoors. We lead such priveleged lives. Once in a while its good to shake oneself up. I just hope it won’t be for the rest of our lives.Heck, even Queen Elizabeth is noted for her frugality in lighting and heat at Balmoral. I think she uses cheap soap too. But I don’t.Of course she has her plane, and her helicopter and her private car on the train, and her yacht… but she still turns off the lights..
A change in diets will also be needed. To produce our own internal heat you will need more calories. Increase the amount of fats in your diet.This is the best way to increase calories without trying to eat much more than usual.
Carbs-4 cal/gm
Protein- 4 cal/gm
Fats 8 cal/gm
I’m afraid I treat life and difficulties of any sort as one big lark. Everything becomes a game to me. Lets see if I can make this hurdle fun.I never grew up.
With proper clothing, prolonged temps well below 0 can be quite comfortable and safe without fueled heaters. The tent inside an interior room is great and should prevent temps getting much below freezing even if below zero outside. Body heat is increaased in two ways, eating and exercise. Having a snack and doing some last minute “chores” before bed will offset the initially cold sleeping bag very well. As DennisC above- “Night caps” are very important.
Preaching to the choir for northern folks I know but maybe worth something for others: Heavy weight polypropolene or wool(naturally odor resistant) long johns and socks for base layer. Fleece pants and jacket/vest, fleece ballaclava for mid layer. Breatheable, water resistant(Gortex or other similar semi-permiable textile), fleece linned or down filled overpants/bibs and jacket. Good gloves or mitts with linners and heavy winter boots and an over hat. Avoid snug boots, better looser for improved circulation. Don’t forget eye protection ie goggles (corneas are susceptable to frostbite). Dressed similar to this you can be out in 25–100 below quite comfortably for hours.
Surviving the cold with adequate clothing and warm sleeping enclosures (ie cold weather sleeping bags/indoor tents) may have an advantage over portable heat sources that are potentially dangerous (fire, CO poisoning etc) and reliant on fuel supplies. A smokey chimney or glowing radiant room heaters would be a big target for desperate cold bad guys. Extreme cold temps in the lower 48 are usually not much below −20 for more than a week or 10 days at a time so should be doable as long as the issue is addressed and prepared for.
I live in Minnesota, and my family can’t survive during the winter if the power goes off for more than a few days. A long time ago I come to the conclusion that if the grid goes down, we will have to leave. It is not keeping warm or having light that concerns me, it is everything that goes along with surviving weeks or months with no heat. Flu would be the least of my troubles.
No power means no water. If our town doesn’t have power, the water plant won’t either. They probably have a back-up generator, but it won’t last all winter. Without heat (and flowing water) my pipes will freeze and likely burst. Without electricity my water heater will freeze. My stored water will freeze. I will have 5 gallon containers of ice in the basement with no practical way to thaw the water - or even get the ice it out of the container into a pot. We will have to chop a hole in the ice on the lake and haul water gallon by gallon up the hill on a sled.
No power = no lift station = no sanitiation. Frozen toilet. Freezing bums in buckets.
No power means grave difficulties with food. All my food will be frozen. I have camping supplies and propane to tide me over for a reasonable amount of time (possibly longer than most people), but the fuel requirements to not just cook the food but thaw it first would be large.
You get the idea. It would be very difficult for my family to survive, and I am far more prepared than most. Most of the country lives in urban and suburban areas, and while it is interesting to imagine all those people giving up their easy way of life and living like mountain men (and loving it!) the reality is that it would be far easier just to keep the grid up.
The grid has got to stay up. See the thread by the same title.
By the way, I spent a year at the South Pole. During the winter the station closes except for (at that time) a crew of 20. No planes in or out, no new supplies, no emergency evacuation. It takes a lot to keep 20 people alive and healthy for 9 months. We were healthy adults with a full-time doctor. We had supplies of food and fuel for our generators. We had appropriate clothing. Still, if our generators had gone down we would have had a very difficult time surviving until help arrived. We kept the grid up!
Sahara – at 13:44 “The grid has got to stay up”
Saying you cannot exist without power and the grid has to stay up is fine. But I would not count on it happening. Everyone wants the grid to stay up. But it doesn’t mean that it will be possible. If the pan flu hits this winter, I see nothing in place that would keep the grid up if the death rates are 5% or more and the work force is reduced to 40% on any one day. As in your example at the S pole, you may need generators, fuel and food. I would not count on the government coming in and giving everyone a generator or that some how there will be enough healthy utility people willing to come out in the blizzard and restore power. You may want to call your electric company and find out where you are getting your power from and figure what it will take to keep it up. At the very least, you need to be ready for rotating blackouts with just a rationed amount of electriciy.
If your plan is to leave, be sure you have a prepared place to go to and stay and know that there may be 10 million people in NYC looking at the same place. The bottom line is each of us has to be prepared.
Boy, there’s a reality check for ya. YIKES! :>{
Many Cats: Thanks for starting this thread. I was just recently thinking about how humans have only depended on electricity for less than a hundred years, and in fact many, many people still don’t have electricity. We CAN survive without electricity as a species, even in Northern Climates.
The main problems I see are in cities where water and sewer all depend on electricity. Possibly people can still go to the local river to get water, then purify it, but what do 8 million New Yorkers do about their own sewage? This is a real problem. Its a lot of kitty litter and buckets, or a lot of hastily constructed outdoor composting toilets behind the apartment buildings. It won’t be long until the sewage is polluting the water supply, then we are back to the 18th century and water born illnesses.
As Sahara mentions, fuel for cooking also becomes a big issue. There is only so much wooden furniture to break up and put in your webber grill. In rural areas there is firewood, there is surface water for drinking, and it would be quite easy to figure ways for the woods to take care of human waste safely.
Cities are the ones in trouble. They are totally dependent on the grid for all basic sanitation, water, food preparation and transportation. I would expect the cities to self evacuate in a prolonged power outage. People will have no choice but to leave, if indeed they can get transportation out… and to where?
Like every other challenge, break it down, take each problem and find the solution. One gallon of water per person a day can be done with body heat if nothing else. Turn off water main and drain house pipes and instill antifreeze to prevent freezing (you know the drill). Move family/ pets, food and water preps into designated smaller interior single room living quarters. Cover and seal doors with blankets, plastic etc. Even if 20 below outside temperature should warm up to 30′s with a couple people inside. Food and water will be thawn or nearly so in that environment. A single burner propane camp stove on low with a covered 20 quart pot of water will provide hot chocolate for several all day on a bare minimum of fuel. Put on cold weather clothing….solve the problem.
Our house is drafty, so we’ll be diligent about putting Mortite in the gaps in the interior window frames. The floor is several degrees colder than it is 5 feet higher, so we’ll put more carpets down and have blankets handy for our legs and laps if we sit at the table. First layer, silk underwear or a synthetic knit, then fleece (either sweats or Polarfleece), maybe a wool sweater on top, and definitely a hat.
A friend told me about a family whose children always slept on a non-heated porch all winter, in northern New York state. She said they had fat cheeks like chipmunks collecting nuts, in the winter. I guess fat accumulated to protect them.
One thing that troubles me is that mountain men weren’t children. They were active, and they knew how “normal” is supposed to feel. Parents have to be sure their children are warm enough through the day, even if it means taking their temperature sometimes if kids get lethargic. Houses in past times had cast-iron stoves and fireplaces, so people in modern houses will have a hard time making do, unless they have emergency heating ready. We see tv news stories about people in apartments boiling pots of water on their gas stoves when the electricity goes off in the winter. And there are city “warming centers” opened for those who need them. Not a good idea during pandemic, and probably not going to happen anyway.
Still, this thread with its positive thinking is a great idea!
Those south-facing windows can be helpful in thawing water. There will be competition, though, because I’d planned on growing sprouts in front of the windows. Also, chilly people will want to sit in front of them. (Then there’s all the food in cans and jars that has to be kept from freezing. arghh.)
ColdClimatePrepper – at 14:18
I agree, people existed above the artic circle before electrical power, and still do. If you prepare you should be able to survive.
I would wonder about cities evacuating. The problem is that if there is no fuel for the power grid, I doubt that there will be fuel for transportation out. People would have used up whatever fuels they had to keep warm - kerosene, gasoline, and diesel, what ever was there.
Sorry for painting a dark pictures. I would think that at least there would be rotating blackouts. If I was a city dweller, I would have a few deep cycle batteries, a charger and an inverter to be ready to “capture” whatever power I could get if there was some intermittent power. And if I was in a cold climate, I would “super insulate” at least one room (basement?).
I know I have a minority view- but I don’t think that evacuation of cities would solve anything. There is just no place to put them that would have water, sanitation, food supplies, power, and housing. The only place like that is another larger city with the same problems. Just ask Houston about Katrina- and Houston is one of the most populous cities (#7) in the US and they just took in just a few ten thousands of people. Now think of evacuating every major city in the US.
Get some decent sleeping bags rated to at least 0 degrees. We went camping this weekend with our two young children. The nighttime low was 22 degrees. Everyone but me slept snuggly through the night. I had a bag rated to 40 degrees. Lesson learned.
Excellent thread! The tent inside the house is brilliant; when at Burning Man, I have a big 6 person tent, and I put our small 2 person tent inside that, for protection from the cold desert nights and playa dust-storms. For those who don’t attend, it’s a wonderful giving community that emphasizes “radical self-reliance”.
The power failure and potential frozen water supply in the basement is a major new concern for me now. Will plan on keeping our 50 gallon water barrel in the tent in the sunny living room, or sleep on a flat water storage bag that I was going to put in the car, to use in case of bugout. But our stored canned food, glass containers with liquid, etc. yikes. Need to rethink that and guess DW and I will be eating canned food for the next couple of months, or donate and stock things that won’t be exploding.
FWIW. We live in NYC and plan on SIP, keeping a low profile, but helping our neighbors as best as possible, and of course defending ourselves if things get a bit medieval.
Sahara - I echo MAV’s sentiments. Now that you have decided that you can’t possibly function without electricity, you need to figure out just what you will do WHEN that eventuality occurs. (In my case, in my rural setting, I face at least 1 or 2 really nasty winter storms per year and perhaps a couple of days after without power. You learn that you can do fine without it).
If your sentiment is that you will have to leave IF power is disrupted, then you need to work out exactly how you are going to implement that decision. Is there rampant illness across your intended route of travel at the time? Where do you plan to go? How do you know things will be any better there? have you secured all permissions and rights to be there? How about your vehicles, are they always fully fueled and ready to go wherever it is you plan to go?
And finally, what will you do if you are prevented from travelling for some reason? Then take that same plan and use ot as your base plan, i.e. if you can figure what you will do if you can’t travel, then plan on doing it and skip the travel piece to begin with.
Sahara—I live in north-central Minnesota—can I ask you what part you live in?
My DH’s nephew spent his 7th and 8th years in a tent in Alaska with his 2 older brothers and parents. Well really they had 2 tents before they got a house built. 2 years! I am amazed. I still think his mother was a saint to do this. I’m sure they had excellent sleeping bags and supplies… but 2 years…on the Kenai!
Anyone have any links to inexpensive winter clothes/sleeping bags? Starting to feel like it might be a good idea to stock up on more warmer clothing. Also, just read on my home page we should have a warmer winter here in US. That’s some good news!
http://www.solarbubblebuild.com looks strange.
In our area the wealthy often had sleeping porches for their children. My gosh, think of Katherine Hepburn with her cold showers and outdoor swims. It was considered a good toughening experience and healthy. I prefer a cool bedroom myself and in a hotel in the winter turn the thermostat to cold as I feel uncomfortable. Minnesota is a different story. But people have survived in the worst of conditions and managed to make do. What they had was fireplaces where you roasted close up and froze on your backside, plus there were ice age periods when Europe was practically Arctic in temperature and birds froze in the sky. All of this is theoretical and worth thinking about, but 1918 didn’t include a return to the dark ages, and I seriously doubt that we will. It is merely that we are accustomed to luxury. The average person expects too much. Street people manage except in the most frigid temps..I don’t like what might lie in wait, and people are right to consider their present circustances and do what they deem necessary for their comfort. But we are a great deal tougher than we imagine and will muddle through with ingenuity and courage.
Dennis C @ 14:06 and Eccles @ 14:55 - As usual, everything you guys say is right on target. My family (I have little kids which changes the equation somewhat) can’t live without power for months on end during the winter. I know we can handle a few days, or even a week or two. Several months is another story. We are also currently unable to have all the generators, fuel, and supplies that I would like to have. We can’t count on the power staying on. So, I know we will have to leave. I know where we will probably go, and how difficult it will be to get there. Just hope they don’t greet us with a shot gun (no Dennis, I’m not coming to your house! Even though I’d probably enjoy your company much more than that of my relatives.)
You’re right, it has to be part of our planning.
We will be making incremental changes to our living situation that I hope will give us more options in the future, but for now this is the most realistic plan I can come up with. I know I won’t be the only one - faced with the prospect of going elsewhere or staying and freezing, my neighborhood will empty out.
If we can’t travel, we will just have to do the best we can, like everyone else. We will put up our tent in the living room, put our water in a south facing window, and try not to freeze or starve to death. I’m not saying these ideas on this forum are not good. They are. But I know how difficult it will be. There’s a reason that there aren’t very many Inuit, and that nobody lives in Antarctica. Its very difficult even if you have a culture that has adapted all its resources over the centuries to living in such an environment. I will be unable to make such an adaptation by this December.
By the way, we’re expecting snow tomorrow. And, as always, thanks for the thought provoking discussion.
By the way - I saw a little South Pole experiment one summer day. A guy had made a sealed glass box and put a thermometer in it. The temperature rose to over 140 degrees F, while the outside temperature was probably about −40 degrees F (it was summer, after all). The South Pole is the sunniest place on earth - during the six months of continuous daylight that is summer. What do we do with this boundless source of energy? Nothing! The place is powered with diesel fuel that needs to be flown in from New Zealand.
So, this may be a little experiment for anyone who is interested in melting ice for water.
Sahara: dont you have a wood oven? Minnesota is in the north right? then a wood oven is essential.. This same discussion was last winter here on the forum. People said, nah. We will not have time to get a wood oven.. Now one year later people still base their energi on the grid. Just face the fuel crisis regardeless of the pan. Get biofuel and solar as a long term inevestment.
Any suggestions for keeping pipes from freezing and bursting during a protracted power failure? Other than wrapping them first..
I plan to bring the mattresses down to the first floor and use sheets of plastic across the doorways/stairwells to the second floor. We have a kerosone heater and 2 gas power generators[must be kept outdoors to avoid carbon monoxide poisoning], tons of blankets, down comforters.
It seems our ancestors were in the habit of putting up sheets of fabric around the bed-no doubt helped to insulate in the same way as a tent over a sleeping bag.
We cannot afford a wood stove or have a place to put one. But we do have a fireplace and I just got back from a granite place and they gave me bits of soapstone and granite! I will put them in the fireplace and warm them up and then we will snuggle with them. The soapstone will be warm for hours and the granite almost as long. For FREE! We even have some larger peices to sit on or warm food up on. How cool is that? The smaller peices will wrap with a towel or put in a pocket. We have a wonderful hearth so we can even put them on the hearth to warm the place up. I want a soapstone wood stove but this is the next best thing.
If you have water but no heat, you can leave the water trickling in the house. As long as you have water flowing, even a trickle, you shouldn’t have a burst problem. Otherwise you need to completely drain the system. Shut off water main into house, open valve at lowest point in system and let it all drain and leave open. At our cabin the low point was the HW heater in the basement. We pour a cup of auto antifreeze in each drain in bathrooms, kitchen etc. Not sure how much value that gives but after experienceing ONE pipe bust its a small effort to do.
Lohrewok at 15:31 http://tinyurl.com/hwp5g this is REI outlet, take a look around.
Urdar-Norge - Yes, some sort of wood burning appliance is in the works. We are returning our masonry fireplace from a gas insert to wood burning. It requires a little planning to do it right, so that at least a little of the heat actually goes into the room instead of up the chimney. But it is a huge fireplace and it will be very beautiful when it is done. You’re all invited over. We’ll make cheese fondu. Minnesota is in the north, but there is an entire country north of us ;-) To them, we are the sunny warm south.
Grace - wrapping the pipes is mostly to prevent condensation on the pipes, and to keep the hot water in the hot pipes at least warm. Then you don’t have to wait for a long time to get warm water if you have a long pipe run. Unfortunately, if your house is not heated insulation will not keep the pipes from bursting. In cabins up here we “drain down” the plumbing for the winter if the cabin isn’t heated - open a valve at the bottom and let all the water run out. We also do this with our outside hose bibs - drain the water out of these pipes. The classic trick is to keep a tap on just a trickle - running water doesn’t freeze. This presumes you have water delivery.
Tricky problem, this water thing.
My mother grew up on a farm in Idaho. During the winter months, her mother would warm stones in or near the fireplace, wrap each in a towel, and then place them under the covers at the foot of the bed for warmth.
Incidentally, my mother’s father died in 1918 of the flu.
Get biofuel and solar as a long term inevestment.
And maybe a biodigester too. :)
I have lived in central Alberta Canada all my life we average −20 in the winter months and have six months of winter starting mid october to mid april. In order of priority for surviving in the winter with out power the following are what we have in place. 1) Well insulated homes 2) Air tight wood stove for heat and cooking 3)Iderdown Duvet for beds 4)Thick wool blanket under bottom sheet on beds, if you do not have a wool blanket put a sheet of cardboard between the matress and box spring it will help prevent the cold from coming up from the bottom of the bed. 5)Extra wool blankets for under the Duvet. For survivng out doors in the winter 1) Wool toque 2) Wool Socks 60% wool minimum. 3) Wool sweaters 4) Skido suit or insulated coveralls 5) Iderdown vest 6) Winter Boots rated for −60deg C and room for a loose fit for your feet with a light pair of wool socks and then a heavy pair over that on your feet.
Hope this helps.
Here’s another vote for warm stones! I’ve already experimented with warming rocks on the grill and putting a canvas sack of them in bed. Heaven! And the heat lasted a long time. I’m going to experiment with a metal bucket of fire-heated stones as a tent warmer on an upcoming camping trip.
I’m also experimenting with buddy burners to heat a room and for emergency cooking. I made a little rocket-style stove by opening up a tall Dinty Moore can into 5 “petals” and resting it in a larger coffee can — the idea being to put a buddy burner down in the bottom of the DM can while a cooking pan rests on the outspread “petals”. The advantage of the buddy burner is that it can supposedly warm a room and it doesn’t offgas like charcoal and propane do. I’ll let you all know how it works.
For the person who asked after cheap sleeping bags, Meijers is running a 0 degree one for $37 now, though mid Dec. Not cheap, but it’s hard to get one with that rating at that price.
Backup warmth for us will be wood stove for a month or so, pray for intermittent power. Then the fallback is warm clothing, a little heat from my Aladdin oil lamp, last will be two old fashioned hot water bottles under the bed clothes, with water heated by a butane stove, which will boil water in just a few minutes. Those of us who have basements, usually it will not get down sub freezing below ground level. That should negate any worry about the canned goods or MREs, if they should freeze, the back up dehydrated and FD foods should be fine. We do not have to survive for years, just a few months at most, and am fairly certain that we will have some power part of the time at least.
One of my dogs bugged out on St. Patricks day. It was balmy and warm. We had a blizzard that nite, and then another blizzard. The dog was out in the open this entire time. When he returned, his fur was full of large engorged ticks and his fur stood on end. He never bugged out again. If a dog could survive who had never been out in the woods before this, I think we will all manage. Uncomfortably and unpleasant and with a greater appreciation for our comforts once the pandemic is over. I obviously don’t go along with a complete breakdown of our world scenario, unless there is a nuclear winter that ensues. I know that as long as I wear sheared boots from Canada and a wool hat and woolen outerwear I usually am prepared for just about anything. Nothing like sheepskin. WE are married to our comforts, but can stand a separation if need be.
If your basement is below ground level, it is unlikely anything down there will freeze, in my experience. Like Eccles, I live in rural Pa. (NE) and it often goes below freezing for a month or more in the winter. My old farmhouse basement (75% below ground level) does not go below 45 F. Ever. In the summer, it is usually 55 −60 F. My basement has a walkout door, but not a sliding patio door. Beyond that is an exterior Bilco-type door. Many of my preps are down there including (6) 55 gallon barrels of water.
I believe DennisC – at 14:39 is on the money about cities evacuating. Where they gonna go, how they gonna get there? and all the while spreading the flu. I do not think NYC officials would encourage that and I’m certain the town fathers in Alpine, NJ do not want them walking through their town. Successful evacuation will be done by individual families before TSHTF.
If you want to heat your home or townhouse for a moderate amount of time look into a kerosene heater if you cannot swing a wood or coal stove. I heated part of our home with one years ago and it worked out fine. The idea that you’re going to see your house burst into flames is over the top. Yes, be careful, as you would with any stove. Keep a window open a half inch for air replacement and keep it away from the furniture. You’ll be fine. A round 23k BTU unit (available everywhere) will burn 1.5 gallons in 15 hours or so. I keep 55 gallons of kerosene in my lawn shed. It is not nearly as dangerous as gas because the flash point is much higher.
If you have a fireplace, get a wood insert. You can get a used one for $300–500. You don’t need a $2,000 new stove. 90% of the heat generated by a wood fire in a fireplace (not in an insert stove) goes up the chimney and actually leads to a colder home. Avoid this.
Water without power is a problem. A generator has pros and cons. At least have a well bucket http://tinyurl.com/aekht. Don’t let your pipes freeze - when power and water are gone, keep a basement faucet open.
We’ve used Walmart sleeping bags for years. Good price/performance for this application. If you want blankets, look here http://tinyurl.com/fuppx
anonymous – at 19:34
Sorry, that was me.
I live in Northern Wisconsin and it gets mighty cold here in the winter. I haven’t seen anyone mention bales of hay (the square ones) as being quite insulative. We use hay in the dogs kennel, we used it in the chicken coop, we cover our septic lines with it. In the winter, we have bonfires and with the temps well below zero, we use bales of hay to sit on and as a back rest. It keeps people very very warm. And with a fire on the “open side” it is down right balmy. Last Feb we had 20 below zero F, and I was sitting out in just a sweatshirt, with only a moderate fire. (I don’t think it was toasty JUST because of the antifreeze I had consumed.)
Around here, you can find square bales of hay for under 2 bucks a piece if you are willing to haul them out of the field. You will also need tarps or plastic, as hay molds quickly if wet.
nawty
NawtyBits: Mother Earth News has published articles on the insulating value of hay bales. Is there an advantage to using straw?
anonymous – at 19:34: \\ I’m in the upper midwest and have never had anything frozen in my basement either. I’m counting on the earth for some measure of protection.\\ I also read years ago about making an indoor warmspace using mattresses as walls. If you were to line them with space blankets, and everyone pile in with sleeping bags, should keep pretty comfy. I’ve got an interior wall lined up for that.\\ MAV in Colorado – at 16:40: GREAT idea about the antifreeze in the drains! I’m actually more concerned about the ‘facilities’ ability to withstand the cold temps than my own. I’m a true believer in wool.
Expecting snow here also tomorrow. Mixed with rain.
Sahara – at 13:44
I was thinking of you while chopping wood outside (it’s snowing here right now)….you wrote
“No power means no water” and I thought to myself “I wonder if it snows where Sahara lives, because if, than there is access to water.
now I am back online and see that you wrote
“By the way, we’re expecting snow tomorrow”
Well, I know the cold-factor is scary, and I pray I’ll have enough wood if my primary heat source (propane)runs out, but you do have water whenever it snows, you boil it for three minutes and it’s great!! I’ve done it many times.
Water gives up its stored heat when it goes from a liquid to a solid. People used to put a big wash tub of water in the basement to help keep the water pipes from freezing. You could solar heat as much water as possible during the day and bring it in one room of the house you intend to spend the most time in / sleep in. Having most or all of your stored water in that room might make a sort term outage survivable.
If the air in the attic is above freezing (since warm air rises) it may be worth making a portion of your attic habitable so you can sleep there at night. This winter would be the time to test the theory.
You can put metal containers with water in them (pots, pans, canned food) in the engine compartment of your car preferably on top of the exhaust manifold. If you run your car for a while you can heat the water and bring it indoors into your indoor tent set up. I knew this guy many years ago who said that while he was in the army they used to put caned food on the engine of the jeep and when they got to were ever they were going lunch or dinner would be ready.
The car thing is just for people who have no stored fuel for cooking & heating (propane). If your only option for heating is your car you might as well run the heater in the car while you are cooking dinner. Just don’t gas yourself with carbon monoxide.
I’m with Sailor ! I’m a wool person at heart ! Also, I have close to 150 pounds of wool here to spin into yarn for more socks, sweaters, hats and blankets…something to do when we have to SIP ! I also have 2 sleeping bags I had an uncle send me from Alaska; so I know I’ll sleep warm. And just need to tuck the cat in with me !
Dr Dave at 19.53 My husband says that he used straw underneath his thin cot when he was stationed in France during WWII. Said it did wonders for keeping him warm.
I have read most of this and had to get to the bottom to post: I love threads like this. They start by some well meaning person and then they fill up in one day! Excellent sharing and community. Wish all threads were this helpful, patient, and easy to understand. Here’s my tip I actually used during a winter exercise when I was in the military- IF someone’s feet get cold and you’re worried about frostbite, have them take off their shoes and socks and then open up your jacket. Put their feet inside your jacket. This is how my wife and I started dating. Not THAT is a story for another time!
Sahara-
If the power is down, that means it’s a very bad situation. Are you sure you and your family would rather leave, than stay put, where is would be safe? We have discussed the military policing the roads, possibly at some point in time being rounded up, ect. I doubt they would let people move around in this situation, would they? Please reconsider your idea to leave.
If you leave, do it ASAP in that situation.
and if you leave, have a prepared place to go to.
At what point should she leave? Leaving after it happen would be very dangerous. Would they have the roads blocked? What if she was stopped and told to turn back?
Even here in Florida you can have cold issues.
Our home has ceramic tile on the floor. Keeps things much cooler during the summer but can aggravate the cold in the winter. To address this I put rugs down in the winter and take them up in the summer. Just one extra layer on the floor makes a significant difference.
The very last place one should be is “out and about” in what will surely be a chaotic and very dangerous time! Then you have to deal with gasoline availability, road blocks/closures, traffic grid lock, quarantine borders, exposure to sick people along the way, people who want your vehicle, people who want what is in side your vehicle (preps, gas, cash etc), people who are just glad that the cops are tied up and are free to create trouble. You could find yourself in a very bad situation. This amounts to the opposite of SIP. More like PIP. (Panicing in Public)
There was a post here from a Katrina person who posted a few notes about all this buggin’ out stuff. I will try to find and repost.
this weekend I am putting plastic on my windows, I do it most winters anyway…old house. I keep buying emergency blankes for the people in the house and for windows and door use. I have two indoor propane heaters, good southern exposure, hot water bottles, camp stove and those little cans of cooking fuel, also keep buying hand warmers. I have two tents and several below zero sleeping bags, plus some old regular ones and I have been trying to buy more blankets from garage sales, I am allergic to wool but picked up several anyway. at least the kids could use them. I want a wood stove, not sure how i’m gonna swing it, but may invest in a kerosine heater in the not to distant future.
I found it but its LOOOOOOONG, not on a site. Should I post?
MAV in Colorado-
Yes, this is what I see, as well.(if we want to envision the worst). Trying to leave is the absolute last thing I would do. It’ll be bad enough trying to protect you family and property. I think I’ll take my chances with the battle of no power, over some desperate person breaking my car windows, and trying to pull me out of the car.
I’m sure most of you have read this so I’ll just try to snip a few pertinent parts:
10. Don’t plan on fuel being available en route. A number of my visitors had real problems finding gas to fill up on the road. With thousands of vehicles jammed nose-to-tail on four lanes of interstate, an awful lot of vehicles needed gas. By the time you got to a gas station, you were highly likely to find it sold out - or charging exorbitant prices, because the owners knew you didn’t have any choice but to pay what they asked. Much better to leave with a full tank of gas, and enough in spare containers to fill up on the road, if you have to, in order to reach your destination.
1. People who were prepared were frequently mobbed/threatened by those who weren’t. This was reported in at least seven incidents, five in Mississippi, two in Louisiana (I suspect that the relative lack of Louisiana incidents was because most of those with any sense got out of Dodge before the storm hit). In each case, the person/family concerned had made preparations for disaster, with supplies, shelter, etc. in good order and ready to go. Several had generators ready and waiting. However, their neighbors who had not prepared all came running after the disaster, wanting food, water and shelter from them. When the prepared families refused, on the grounds that they had very little, and that only enough for themselves, there were many incidents of aggression, attempted assault, and theft of their supplies. Some had to use weapons to deter attack, and in some cases, shots were fired. I understand that in two incidents, attackers/would-be thieves were shot. It’s also reported that in all of these cases, the prepared families now face threats of retribution from their neighbors, who regarded their refusal to share as an act of selfishness and/or aggression, and are now threatening retaliation. It’s reportedly so bad that most of the prepared families are considering moving to other neighborhoods so as to start afresh, with different neighbors.
Similar incidents are reported by families who got out in time, prepared to spend several days on their own. When they stopped to eat a picnic meal at a rest stop, or an isolated spot along the highway, they report being approached rather aggressively by others wanting food, or fuel, or other essentials. Sometimes they had to be rather aggressive in their turn to deter these insistent requests. Two families report attempts being made to steal their belongings (in one case, their vehicle) while over-nighting in camp stops on their way out of the area. They both instituted armed patrols, with one or more family members patrolling while the others slept, to prevent this. Seems to me to be a good argument to form a “bug-out team” with like-minded, security-conscious friends in your area, so that all concerned can provide mutual security and back-up.
4. If you look like you know what you’re doing, you may be a target of those less prepared. There have been many, many reports of individuals who were more or less prepared for a disaster being preyed upon by those who were not prepared. Incidents range from theft of supplies, through attempts to bug out with these persons (uninvited), to actual violence. It’s genuinely frightening to hear about these incidents, particularly the attitude of those trying to prey on the prepared they seemed to feel that because you’d taken steps to protect yourself and your loved ones, you had somehow done so at their expense, and they were therefore “entitled” to take from you what they needed. There’s no logical explanation for this attitude, unless it’s bred by the utter dependence of many such people on the State for welfare, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, etc. Since they’ve always been dependent on others, and regarded this as an “entitlement”, in a disaster situation, they seem to automatically assume that they’re “entitled” to what you’ve got! In one case, the family’s pet dog was held hostage, with a knife at its throat, until the family handed over money and supplies. In two cases, families were threatened with the rape of their women unless they co-operated with the aggressors. In four cases that I know of, children were held hostage to ensure co-operation. There have also been reports of crimes during the bug-out process. Families sleeping in their cars at highway rest areas were a favorite target, including siphoning of gas from their tanks, assaults, etc. The lessons to be learned from this are obvious. One family can’t secure itself against these threats without great difficulty. It’s best to be “teamed up” with neighbors to secure your neighborhood as a whole, rather than be the one house with facilities in an area filled with those less prepared. If you’re in the latter situation, staying put may not be a safe option, and a bug-out plan may be vital. When bugging out, you’re still not safe from harm, and must maintain constant vigilance.
i lived in a house in northeast TN for a winter while in college where there were more people residing than were on the lease, so everyone was afraid to call the landlord when the furnace broke. (stupid, i know.) i’m terrible in the cold and am fairly petite, without much weight to keep warm with so at first this was a terrible awful thing to have be happening.
but we, about 8 of us, managed to live an entire winter largely in the absence of indoor heating. i kid you not. granted, this was TN where winter doesn’t last nearly as long, or get as cold as here in New England. however, it got COLD.
i lived in the attic, a huge room with no insulation on the ceiling. at night i would sleep under a synthetic material blanket, wearing many layers of (hippie-type) clothing and be perfectly warm all night long. in the morning, a glass of water beside the bed would be frozen solid. we’d crack ice out of the shower hose to take a shower and had to keep our beer in the fridge so it wouldn’t freeze at night. our sink was a mini ice-skating rink we’d chop-at to get the silverware out.
okay, okay, so you must think i was crazy for staying there, i was, but the price was close to free and we had fabulous parties on the warmer days. y’know, i was young and we were all pretty broke. (some of the guys living there would sell their blood plasma for food money. oh yeah.)
anyway, point being…it can be done and you can get used to it. when i’d go into a heated building during that time period, like, to class, i’d be absolutely broiling hot while everyone around me was just freezing. at one point we got a kerosene heater to hover around, but with two floors of 12′ ceilings beneath my space and no insulation in the attic, i pretty much bore the brunt of the cold and, tho it was uncomfortable at times (my skin was awful), i just got used to it until the phenomenon of indoor heating began to seem…unnatural, extraneous even.
i could never do this now, some umpteen years later -am all about cozy and warm at this point, and of course children and the elderly and ill need to be warm- but back then i adjusted, saved alot of money on rent, had a great time laughing and complaining about it with the housemates, and now have some unique memories to share with people like…you; the year i lived without heat.
: D
If you have southern facing windows hanging black plastic several feet from the window or on the ground where the sun hits will generate a desent amount of heat. Allthough its not sunny every day.
MAV in Colorado- as I read that, I just shook my head. Those are the reports you don’t hear. That’s the ugly you don’t see on t.v. And it brings the reality to you, exactly what human nature will do to survive; any and everything, no mater what race, wealth, or creed. We are preparing for this too, hence my families moto; we are not stocking, we no nothing, we have nothing. Only to a very select few that I know are stocking, have I revealed I am too. And at times, I think that exposing myself trying to inform people about this, they know I’m stocking, and if they are of the mind, could find out where I live, should it start to look bad. You pointed out a very good point, that I have not thought of, and that’s “teaming up with neighbors”. I think we get caught up in thinking of our families that we forget our neighbors. I know I have, I’m ashamed to say. My next door neighbor just lost her husband a few months ago, so she is on her own. she’s really neat. Thank you for bring this to my attention.
If someone has the link to this persons entire post, please post here. I only have it saved as word doc for emailing. thanx
MAV in Colorado – at 23:33 “If someone has the link to this persons entire post, please post here. I only have it saved as word doc for emailing. thanx”
Here is the original post. It is a bit off-topic; it isn’t really about surviving in the winter. It is a true story of what happened when people decided it was too dangerous to stay at home because they were not prepared and went on the road to get to a friends house during the Katrina storm. It is very valuable advice from a squared-away person. It may be a good idea to print this out and read it until you have a plan for each contingency the author and his guests encountered. For those of us with family, friends, children, wives and daughters; read very carefully!
http://www.frfrogspad.com/disastr.htm
I have contributed to threads that discussed this in the past and there seem to be two kinds of people on the fluwikie; those that get it and those that don’t want to get it. This is really for the first group.
With no intention of starting a flame war, keep in mind what happened during the recent school shooting in Colorado. For reasons known only to them and God, the boys in that class did nothing. That wasn’t the case in other school shootings. With that in mind, if you or my family are in a bad jam with hoodlums during a pandemic - are/can your neighbors really help you? (Hint; ‘I don’t know’ is a NO for planning purposes). If you are on the road, you are truly on your own.
ssol- at06:20
excellant article, but I am not shocked or surprised by what I read. Or family plan is this; prepare for physical survival, mental survival (stress), and intruder survival. When it comes to officals showing up and demanding to take over your home, your supplies, or demanding that you leave, what are you to do? This we have not thought about. You can’t get in a stoot out match with them, or get physical. And this concerns me more, than looters trying to break into our home, or stealing gas, ect.
This is an article I plan on visiting more often.
cottontop – at 07:14 “When it comes to officals showing up and demanding to take over your home, your supplies, or demanding that you leave, what are you to do?”
Katrina was a full scale local disaster. Officials took private property to assist government efforts to rescue people. It seems likely that they’ll do the same thing if BF results in a full scale disaster. Local officials will think and act to fix local problems. Perhaps we’ll be spared out-of-state troopers enforcing non-local laws.
If we are trying to survive a tough winter without electric/oil heat, I do not think officials will want to commandeer woodstoves. I would not be suprised if they demanded your generator and gasoline ‘for the common good’. If it was going to be used to save the lives of patients at the local hospital there would be merit to their actions. If it is going to ‘Officer Jone’s’ house for his family ‘because they need it while I’m out here on patrol in combat-like conditions’, that is another matter.
We need to think about the physical security of our heat. If our wood pile is visible from the road, have-nots will try to take some or all of it. The same is true of coal bins or 100 lb. propane tanks. I watched one of my neighbors ride his quad with trailer over to a neighbors unoccuppied property and steal 4 loads of gravel on a Saturday afternoon under sunny skies in good times!!! Build a woodshed, coal bin with locks and chain your propane tanks thoroughly.
If have-nots come to your house demanding your supplies you had better be ready, able and willing to start shooting. Otherwise just hand it over and run away - you cannot negotiate with a mob. I do not see a scenario where civil authorities demand our food and supplies (other than generators) in the middle of winter. If they do, it can only be to take from you to give to someone else, perhaps themselves and this should be refused.
A lesson that applies to the thread is to have multiple solutions to winter survival. Have oil, electricity, wood or coal. If those are gone, for whatever reason, use a secondary source - wood, coal, kerosene. If those are gone, have a an axe to cut firewood as you need it. Warm clothes, a tent for inside the home. Same goes for water; a generator is a good idea. So is a well bucket. In fact, have directions and PVC supplies to make well buckets for your neighbors. Maybe a hand pump for a well.
Have spare parts for your heating system. Spare parts for your inner chimney, stove rope, stove cement, wicks and repair kits for your kerosene heater/lanterns. Spare funnels and fuel cans. A couple of axes, bow saws, extra blades, wing-nuts, mauls and sharpening stones. It might be a good idea to leave a few dead trees in your woods (that are not lying on the ground) for ‘emergency firewood’. If you don’t have woods on your property, know where some are in nearby woods and have a wheelbarrow, car or truck to get some daily. Obviously we will need matches - in freezer bags. (I left a few boxes out on a shelf in my basement and the humidity ruined them - good lesson.)
cottontop – at 07:14
Looting - it would crazy for people to try to steal or take food from others since some of them might be poisoned. But I guess the type of people that would do that don’t think of such things. Poisoned supplies are the “classic” way to get rid of a “warlord”.
yeah well I’ve got some digitalis for them!
and I know they won’t be back!
story from norway.. a dad and his teenage son is watching televison, its a show of someone sleeping in the snow. the father says he dont belive the son could be that tough.. the son replied, what do I get for it?.. I dont remember the price but it was hughe for a teenager, he spent the entire arctic vinter here in Norway sleeping on the veranda every night. He had a good sleeping bag, and bought him self i nice thing when summer came :)
dont try to keep your entire water supply liquid in a emergency, just a small part if you only have one small heater. ! If you have a cellar its the best place for water storage, the ground dont freece unless you live in the permafrost region.. and then its frosen already.. The cellar dont seem to be the bests rom to heath either, its made of heavy masses, and needs a lot more energy than a wodden/brick room to heath up. A normal insulated house will be good enough to heath with a small kerosene heater.. but dont expeckt it to be “warm” just good enough :)
SSOL, thanx for reposting that link. EVERYONE should read and consider it’s contents.
any relatively easy mod’s for increasing the efficency of a traditional,stone fireplace without an insert? ie,reflectors,damper’s,vents,etc?
Why would official go house to house seeking supplies? It wouldn’t make sense since they would infect themselves if someone was ill, and we already know that the majority of people are not prepared. Also home packaged goods are chancy. I occassionaly would be gifted with some home pickeled items, and unless I knew the gifter well I always thanked them, and then tossed. Unless it was wine, my husband did drink home made wine. And I do buy home made jams from various fairs I attend.
If unopposed, the guy with the gun gets what he wants. Noone said anything about anyone behaving intelligently or rationally. The desparate trouble makers will be the uninformed, unaware and unprepared. But desparate all the same.
still like my digitalis idea better.
MAV in Colorado – at 13:43
guy with the gun gets what he wants
Not if you have planned and prepared. It does not take much to dig a hole and hide items. He cannot steal what he does not know exists. Knowledge is the ultimate weapon.
Inthehills@13:03 — Our fireplace has a nifty little device: instead of just a rack to hold the burning logs, it has a series of C-shaped pipes. In theory, the bottom of the pipes should passively suck up the cold air down low in front of the fire, and as the flames heat the pipes the hot air should shoot out the top pipes. I say in theory because it is actually a little too big for our fireplace and the hot air just vents too high to come out the front so I don’t know how well it would work if it fit right. It’s a great concept, anyway.
I have also seen devices that I believe one can hook up to a radiator that runs tubing back into the fireplace. Now, that’s a great idea if you’re handy.
If your out in a rural area like I am, and you have lots of trees, an old fridge, in fairly good condition, sunk in the ground would serve a very good hiding spot for prep stuff, or a “root cellar”. trees would help to distract away from the area of the fridge.
Dr Dave – at 19:53
NawtyBits: Mother Earth News has published articles on the insulating value of hay bales. Is there an advantage to using straw?
I can’t say for sure, but IMHO, there is little difference. I use what is cheapest any given year. Cover straw, cover hay, depending on the crop, one is usually cheaper. I assume the insulation quality comes from the air spaces between the the pieces of straw/hay, and since both are similar, I would think they would be similarly insulative.
nawty
cottontop – at 14:14
I have some “bucket” hidden. However I also have a old truck bed tool box burried. I plant native plants on top of the buckets. I use a “special combination” of plants to mark my buckets. (and old Druid trick to use plants to mark paths and objects).
lohrewok at 15:31 -
Hope they’re right about the warmer winter…however, I’m still pondering that (so far) incredibly inaccurate hurricane season prediction ;)
I’m gettin’ our cold weather clothing and supplies in order and praying they see minimal usage.
DennisC
how clever of you. this would work as well ontop of the old fride during the spring/summer/. During the winter, a moved branch layed askew, nearby. Would have to make sure it didn’t get too buried in the snow. But The point I was trying to make, is that surely we could out smart these idiots. Take tip from the squirrels, only remember where you hid your food. We too have an old truck that some distance from the house. Looks like its been there since the 50′s. interesting and worth investigating.
Inthehills@13:03. I have a fireplace in my home with a wood insert in it. I got the insert and 15′ of stainless steel 8″ chimney liner for $100. An old bub sold it if I would get it out of his garage. He said he was too old to chop wood and had installed a pellet burner. This was an easy deal to find. I live in Pa. and used www.thepapershop.com to find it. This outfit distributes listing of all used goods in the area at 7–11′s and similar stores. There must be one near you too. There are units for sale right now for $100-$650.
If you cannot install an insert, I would close off that room as well as you can and burn wood fires. You will need a good deal of firewood to make it through the winter - 4 or 5 cords depending on your location. You will need to crack a window open to provide air to the fire. Make sure you have a couple of 40:2 fire extinguishers and keep that area pristine clean. Remember that fire ash can re-ignite a fire 2 weeks later.
Keep in mind that your water pipes may freeze elsewhere in the house.
ssol – at 15:04
pellet stove. I have one of those as a back up. I have taken some of my old pellet sacks and filled them with “feed corn”. It will burn in the pellet stove and I can eat it, if I get real hungry.
ssol at 06:20 -
“For reasons known only to them and God, the boys in that class did nothing.”
I fear that, for the most part, chivalry is dead.
ssol and northstar…thankyou. my fireplace is my third alternative for heat,but, i’m looking for a cheap and quick emergency update that anyone could accomplish with other prep supplies. for example,would cans of water hold and slowly release heat after being warmed by the fire? would aluminum foil placed on the sides and rear reflect more heat into the room? etc. any thoughts?
OKbirdwatcher – at 16:15 “I fear that, for the most part, chivalry is dead. “
Many boys have been effectively emasculated. It seems to be a problem that grows with each generation. A discussion of the causes is beyond this thread but it does have an impact on planning for winter and civil problems around lack of heat.
We may be disappointed with the reaction of our neighbors to our pleas for help to stay warm or maintain physical security if BF is a full scale disaster. I know only 4 of my neighbors well enough to rely on them if there is a problem. Unfortunately, 2 of them died this spring. The new neighbors don’t look too promising, in fact, one is going to be a problem in the best of times.
This has been discussed many times here and the conventional wisdom seems to be to ‘lay low and keep your mouth shut’. I would add that securing your fuel is going to be very, very necessary. Our neighbors will be the first to use our firewood, propane etc. It may take a civil disturbance in our neighborhoods to bring neighbors together the way they once were in years gone by. That doesn’t leave much room for planning.
As the BF unfolds, discuss heat and fuel sources quickly with neighbors as a way to quickly flush them out. Be prepared for suprises.
Knowing who is and isn’t trustworthy can be a great help in your planning if it is either impossible or unnecessary for you to leave. Note that I did not say friendly. There are great many friendly folks in the world who will gleefully slit your throat both metaphorically and literally if they feel it is necessary. So get to know at least the people on either side of you.
Good “Bugging IN” article http://tinyurl.com/mvmc8
ssol – at 08:06 - “Same goes for water; a generator is a good idea. So is a well bucket. In fact, have directions and PVC supplies to make well buckets for your neighbors.”
ssol: I have one of these and it occurred to me that they do not look like too complicated a device. I wondered if they could be made, just as you say, with PVC from the local hardware store. Everyone in my area has a well for water, and it would be an ironic shame if they could not access the substantial amounts of ground water they are sitting on. Do you know where decent plans for well buckets might be found? Thanks.
Wow! Great ideas! This thread reminded me of something that I saw years ago, mainly dealing with helping third world countries, but also helping the poor and homeless. The idea was to paint glass containers black, fill with water(maybe sand would also work?), and put in a southfacing window. The water heats during the day and passsively releases the heat at night. I know that the bricks on my house do this ( and my eletric bill for the summer shows this!) so I’m sure it must work. I had totally forgotten this…now another thing to work on-collecting jars and painting black!
Pixie-There were very nice detailed plans for a PVC water hand pump in “Pictures of Preps” thread a month ago. I think GaryNearDeathValley ‘s
How about lining a south facing window with bricks. My kitchen window facing south, has a deep shelf where I keep plants, and the family room has a large picture window facing south where I also keep plants. Would painting the bricks black make them absorb more heat. I was thinking of putting black plastic sheeting between that and the Chesterfield sofa to keep the heat in that room, which also has the fireplace.
For the handy, here’s a woodstove you can make out of an old hot water heater, and the plans for it:
You can use a old coffee can with some rocks in the bottom and a candle. Ive used this set up in a barn when I had to stay with a sick horse.
I know someone who made one of the hot water heater woodstoves,it work out real well. He had less than a hundred dollars into it.
Thanks MAV in Colorado and GaryNearDeathValley!
Maybe I’ll start buying red wine in gallon jugs. Then I can store water and have some heat.
What got me started on this thread, beyond my “storm of the century” experience, was that I had read of how a young man 19 years of age had survived a terrible winter’s night somewhere in the Great Lake region (near Montreeal?) in 1756! His name was James Smith and, after having been captured by Indians, he was adopted into the Caughnawaga tribe. How many of us would have curled up and died under similar circumstances? I thought his story, and the ones all of you have related, might help to show that we can survive under harsh conditions, if we have the will to do so:
“The air was dark with snow…I came to a hollow tree with a hole at one side…I went in and found that it was a dry place…I stripped off my blanket (which was all the clothes I had, excepting a breechclout, leggings and moccasins). Then I went out and with my tomahawk fell to chopping at… a fallen tree…Carrying the wood back, I set it on end against the opening, until I had it three or four feet thick all around, excepting a hole I had left to creep in at. I had a block prepared that I could haul after me, to stop this hole…When I went in…I…cut down all the dry rotten wood (inside the hollow tree)…and…made a bed…and with the small sticks stopped every hole until my house was almost dark…I…danced…for about half an hour, to warm myself…I coiled myself up in my blanket…I could hear the storm raging and did not suffer much cold…I would stay in my nest until I was certain it was day…(in the morning) I …attempted to move away the block…I immediately received light. I found a very great snow had fallen, above what I hade ever seen in one night…the snow had fallen above three feet deep.”
From: Captured by the Indians: 15 Firsthand Accounts, 1750 – 1870 by Frederick Drimmer, Dover Publications, ISBN 0–486–24901–8
I think I will also put this story on a “Pioneer Ingenuity” thread so that others with useful tales from the struggles of their ancestors, stories from all over the world, might help to keep us going if the power goes out or modern conveniences cease to exist in other ways.
http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html
Solar Heater
Do you have some south facing windows? (North facing if you are in the Southern Hemisphere), If so you might want to consider some free solar heat. Don’t expect this to eliminate all heating costs but it will reduce your expenses. The more windows you can place one of these solar heaters in the more you will see a reduction in your heating costs.
The main components of this solar heater design are sheets of heavy-duty foam insulation, one or more sheets of window glass, a tube of “RTV” (bathtub sealant), a box or two of aluminum foil, and a roll of duct tape. Exact sizes and angles to cut will vary, depending on the height of your window from the ground, it’s width, and the winter sun angle at your latitude.
The Heat Collector can be as simple as painting the sun side of the thin foam panel flat black, or for a more efficient collector use a sheet of ten-thousandths aluminum (available as scrap from most newspaper or “offset” presses). Paint the aluminum sheet(s) flat black on both sides then mount it ¾ inch from the surface of the foam sheet using a couple of dozen ¾ inch cubes cut from foam and cemented down with RTV. This allows the air to pass by both sides of the solar heated aluminum, greatly increasing the efficiency.
Cover all inside foam surfaces with aluminum foil and glue it down with RTV. Paint or otherwise cover ALL external foam surfaces. Foam is sensitive to ultraviolet light and will decompose if left, unprotected, in direct sunlight.
Be sure and seal the glass top and all other exposed seams with RTV to insure the assembly is watertight. Moisture in the collector will reduce its efficiency, and may promote mold.
Use RTV to glue the sides to the bottom panel and end cap. Duct tape can be used to hold everything in place while the RTV sets up, if applied along all edges the duct tape can be left in place to add strength. You may want to consider pushing a few nails through the side panels and into the thinner inner foam panel to hold it in place as the RTV sets up.
Cut two foam covers to close the hot and cold air ducts at night or in the summer. Duct tape makes pretty good hinges and clasps for these covers. If you live in wind a prone area you may want to drive two stakes in the ground and attach them at each side of the lower end of the solar heater to prevent wind lift. Remember to keep the glass clean for optimal performance.
Notice: The intent of this web page is not to be step-by-step instructions, but as a source for general information and rough design ideas. If you are not handy building small projects I would suggest you find someone who is to help you with this project.
Happy heating :-)
Thanks, the day after. That looks like it’ll be a fun project to try out.
There have been so many good ideas here for passive solar heating here but I have lots of basic questions…like…if you put jugs of water, painted black, near a south facing window, should the jugs or containers be sealed or unsealed?
Plastic or glass?
Should the paint be flat black BBQ or will any black paint do?
Could one get those black plastic medium sized tubs used to feed livestock, fill them up with water and place them indoors near south facing windows?
For those that will heat with wood: Please have your wood stocked before the pandemic if possible. Chopping and splitting would could lead to injuries or heart attacks. You don’t want to have to go to a hospital full of flu patients.
Buffalo with 22 inches of snow, no water from the pumping station (the grid is down) No power is the perfect example to give to people. I spoke to someone this morning and used it as an example of why to have some preps, especially water. She said they have some water around the house, I don’t think she is going to prep at all. It will be interesting to get stories out of Buffalo.
A better passive solar device is a window heater, that captures additional sunlight that would have otherwise fell on your wall or ground outside. I constructed one in college and on cold sunny days the room was comfortably toasty, while the house thermostat was at 66F. I found a used sliding glass door (dual pane glass) that worked quite well, and with boards I already had in the shop, total cost was below $10.
Various designs such as;
http://www.solar-components.com/SOLARKAL.HTM http://www.jrwhipple.com/sr/solheater.html http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/mssungrabber.htm http://www.motherearthnews.com/library/1977_September_October/Mother_s__Heat_Grabber_
For a more complete list, see;
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/SpaceHeating/Space_Heating.htm
I was just thinking, one of the past nights, whether a car, or a blacktop driveway, could be rigged to “grab” heat during the day, and get it into a dwelling- just a takeoff on the window idea…
Al: forget the hard work of painting glass jars unless you have some estethic ideas behind. Ho for typical 1 gallon black plastic containers from the car industry. Here all gasolin stations are requiered to colleck all used plastic containere form customers, many of them are black and may be picked up for free. there are some oil spill in them, clean this aout using alc0hol detergent. (dont pulute by puttiing the spill in the sewer.. even burn it is better)
fill them with water, and remove the stickers, if you have many simalr you will have perfect solar colector, behing the windows or by buliding a complete colector on the south wall with cheap thermo channel plates (like in greenhouses). this type of simple colector is also used to store heath and level temperatures in greenhouses.
for the glass jars adding black in to the water also works :) but remeber that heath stored in water is all about quantity not quality ( low heath but a lot of it for free)
ahh.. my baaad spelling.. “black ink” in the water in jugs..
Will - thanks for those links. I LOVE the solar room heater idea. I hand’t thought about that before. If we have no power we were planning on camping out in our one main room that has the fireplace, which was one of the few things my home builder actually built well! Anyway, if we could heat the room on sunny days with something like this then use the FP at night, we’d save a lot of fire wood. This room gets a lot of sun during the day in the winter - in the summer we are surrounded by lots of tress that shade everything.
Turned on the heat for the first time on the lowest heat. After having it off as a test for sleeping comfort, I really felt relaxed, but when I went to the first floor, and I had only used the downstairs furnace it was uncomfortably stuffy and hot, though my clothing, next to a hot air register was toasty warm. So it will be off for either the day or evening, depending on the outdoor temps. Think I’ll try sleeping by the south facing window after a sunny day to see how the heat stores up. Put a thermometer around to various sites to see how the temperature varies. Better to do it now while there is no problem with power. If you have children they might find it interesting to test these things out.
I have a propane heater that says it is safe to use indoors when using small disposable fuel cartridges but not when using a 20lb propane cylinder. Does anyone know what the real risk is of using a standard barbecue type propane cylinder inside is?
I’m going to get some bricks, as dark colored as I can find, to heat up in the sun, then put under the covers with me. Someone above said to put them in a canvas bag.
Good Afternoon all, I put a slab of dark granite on the window seat in my south facing bedroom and it it gets hot! It stays warm for a few hours after the sun goes down too. I have smaller peices of soapstone and granite to use not only on the window sills but in the fireplace. Some Wood stoves use soapstone because they hold heat so well. (google soapstone wood stoves) After heating in the fireplace wrap them in a towel and snuggle! I have several peices that we will be using. I will also lay a larger piece on the rock hearth by the fireplace to warm food. The down side is that they are heavy! A really great thing about soapstone and granite is that you can get them FREE! Just go to a place that makes countertops and look in their throwaway bin. Can’t say enough good thigs about granite over bricks. Try it, you’ll like it!
As I had a back problem, I often used a hot sock. Put rice in a sock and keep it in the microwave. Great for a back problem. Perhaps it might work in a south facing window. I also have marble slabs I used to use for pie crusts. I think I’ll try all kinds of things in tandem and see which keeps its warmth and for how long. I’ll try dry beans, rice, marble and bricks tomorrow. Any more ideas?
Anonymous, here in Canada propane heaters using the 1 lb propane canisters are not considered safe for indoor use. So, I think a 20 lb. cylinder definitely would not be safe for use.
I bought a 12 ft hose with regualtor. I have an enclosed front porch that gets lots of air circulation. I figure I will use my buddy heater with the 20 pound tank on the front porch and the hose runing thru a the porch window.
KimT, the Buddy heater is pretty nifty, especially when rigged with the 20 pound propane bottle. But if you need to isolate someone and heat a second room, you will need a second heat source. Coleman makes a catalytic heater call the “Black Cat” that uses 16 ounce bottles of propane. These little heaters are rated at 3,000 BTUs and they can run for about 7+ hours per $2 (US) cylinder.
Dr Dave – at 18:53 got one of those too ;) thanks!
Instead of a canvas bag, the cut-off leg of blue jeans would make a tough covering for heated rock/bricks. With my heating pad for my feet at night, I change position often to warm different parts of my feet. I wonder if some smallish rounded rocks could be heated in a black pot or solar-oven-type thing and put in a jeans’ leg to become a warm bean-bag type flexible heater. (Small rocks would lose their heat faster, though.) Diana, let us know how it all works out. :)
Propane tanks can and do explode. We had a Amish family who learned that the hard way.
Thanks Irene, janetn et al. I have heard of leaking propane tanks catching fire too but it seems pretty easy to check to make sure the tank is not leaking before you light the heater and if you have a 10 ft hose on it I think you would smell it before it achieved combustionable quantities near the heater. The room that I want to heat is on a second floor and it would be difficult and possibly more dangerous to hang the tank out the window. Another problem with leaving the tank out side is that it probably will not work once it gets very cold. I do not know what that temperature is but I have had problems using the barbecue in the winter because the cold propane does not create enough pressure.
Now that it’s getting cold, we ought to run some experiments with solar collectors and see what works and what doesn’t. It would be great if we could think of some simple, make-do-with-what-you’ve-got projects that people could complete using what they probably already have around the house. The bottom of a dark broiler pan placed in two nested cardboard boxes might be the beginning of a solar collector. Glass secured in a picture frame (taken right off the wall) could cover the top, and aluminum-foil covered reflectors would be easy to add. Box flaps covered in foil might do, duct-taped at an appropriate angle.
If rocks and bricks disappoint us, a black pot full of gray water could be used to fill hot water bottles before bedtime.
anonymous - at 20:43
Sigh. So how warm does a 1-lb. propane canister have to be before it works? Here I am now worrying out how to warm the thing that was going to help keep me warm (in conjunction with a Coleman ProCat heater). My propane canisters are all stored outside in a lockable storage bench some distance from the house. They will be as cold as the outside temperature, whatever it is - worst case here is 0 degrees F or a few below, usually only at night.
InKy, I can get them to work when they are at freezing. Hug one inside a coat and it will be ready to fire up in no time.
Thank you, Dr Dave. I have much still to learn.
In my pursuit of the answer to my own question, I found a comforting sentence posted on a forum: “Up in the Canadian Arctic we used Coleman heaters with disposable propane canisters when the temperatures dropped to sub zero.” With that reassurance, I’m going to bed.
Being in Colorado I don’t live nearly that far north and in the winter my outdoor barbecue grill with a 20 lb tank barely works. If it was indoors which would put it well above freezing I’m sure it would work great. I bet anyone using disposable propane cartridges for hear in the Canadian Arctic is preheating them with body heat. That is easy to do with a small canister but not with a 20 lb cylinder.
My Coleman Procat heater uses those 1-lb canisters, so I guess I’ll do the coat trick. It really helps to know ahead of time about potential problems like this. I guess I won’t be regretting having to use the 1-lb. canisters, after all.
InKy, another very important use of your small catalytic heater is to warm the crankcase of a cold generator before trying to start it. You may discover the hard way that the oil in the crankcase will not flow if it is too cold. Check your owner’s manual for clarification of the proper oil viscosity and starting procedures for cold weather starting. However, if you are like me, you will play it safe and take the time to warm up your generator before trying to start it in weather that is below 45 degrees Fahrenheit.
Someone wrote in another thread that putting a warm wet towel or rag on the larger propane tanks would get them going in cold weather.
Well %^$&#! I tried the trick with the warm wet towels. Now all my towels are frozen around the propane tank. I guess I’ll have to wait for Spring before I take my next bath. ;)
For the first time this season I had turned on the downstairs furace for 12 hours, then turned it off. The heat was sufficient for 24 hours, so will turn it back on when I get home tonight. Since the days are in the fifties I opened a south facing window. I like fresh air. I too was going to try round rocks. I used to paint them and sell them for door stops and still have a few. (From Maine). This is the ideal weather to experiment. I’m always out until quite late so its mainly pipes freezing and bursting that concern me. I think its good to be uncomfortable once in a while, you appreciate warmth and comfort so much more afterwards. Like missing someone or something you take for granted. Of course anyone with babies or toddlers doesn’t have this option of experimentation. I find it exhilerating, like all the weird things that can happen when traveling, but with the comfort of at least being safe at home. I’m also going to try heating iron doorstops of which I have a nice rooster and sheep, and any other cockymamie thing I run across that I already own. Oh yes I have a trellis of grapevines in iron in the basement. I’m going to set up a little antique shelf on my south facing windows. (I used to fiddle around as an amateur antique dealer years ago. When I think of all the antique kitchen fireplace things I sold years ago that I thought I would never use. But it was fun.Might be nice to poke around at auctions and house sales to find similar items.
Many cats- I was thinkin about getting some “space blankets”, but I thought that they would be too slippery, like satin sheets. They it ocurred to me that I could just put a space blanket under my fitted sheet and then it would stay put. I saw them for about two bucks in the camping section last week.
Many cats - I was thinking about getting some space blankets but I thought that they were too small and to slippery to be an effective bed covering. Then it occured to me to just put one under my fitted sheet and that would keep it in place and make use of the full size of the blanket.
new name - on the sleeping bag vs. down comforter debate - I think this may be the most economical solution.
anonymous – at 10:49 In Alaska, we put a light bulb (on) next to the propane tank line to keep it from freezing. It worked until one night when we woke up and out house was very cold. The light had burned out. Interesting getting ice on your chin from your own breath while you were asleep and then getting quickly dressed. Replaced the bulb and turned on the heat.
Question-why is it that 100 lb outdoor LP tanks don’t freeze? Is there some type of valve that is only on the smaller tanks that makes it more vulnerable to freezing temps?
Question-why is it that 100 lb outdoor LP tanks don’t freeze? Is there some type of valve that is only on the smaller tanks that makes it more vulnerable to freezing temps?
Question-why is it that 100 lb outdoor LP tanks don’t freeze? Is there some type of valve that is only on the smaller tanks that makes it more vulnerable to freezing temps?
We are without power, water, phone, heat, etc. in Buffalo, New York. We have kept a fire in the fireplace for about five days now, thank God we got that wood. Our supplies are holding for perhaps another five days. The water is contaminated and must be boiled for cooking and drinking per the water authority. We have been helping the neighbors where we can, especially the shut-ins. We are learning first hand how fragile our hold on things really is. The freak storm destroyed the trees of our city, and took everything out with it. Nonetheless, we have a good attitude, and are ready to continue to ride it out. I am at work, which has power by generator (hospital), and am enjoying the few hours of heat.
sorry about the triple post, my dial up connection dropped and I hit refresh.
Al – at 12:16 they don’t really “freeze” the problem is they condense to a liquid. the boiling point of Butane (C4 H 10)is −0.5C. the boiling point of propane (C3 H 8) is −44 C. (at normal atm. pressure) So that means that propane remains a gas at lower temperatures and thus you can get it out of the tank as a gas. The propane is a liquid under pressure, but you have to have it a gas to get through the pipes and to the burners.
The other thing going on is that gases cool when they expand or the presurized liquid evaporates to the gas. When you evaporate a few cubic feet of propane it will cool a small bottle much easier than a large tank (larger thermal mass of the large tank). So small tanks get cooler than a larger tank when you pull off the same amount of gas.
Dan - osrry you guys got hammered like that! Let us know if you learn anything else during your unplanned SIP. We had one this summer when teh power went out for a few days and I learned a great deal. Hope your power comes back soon!
Thanks for the explanation, that makes sense. I notice that convenience stores keep locked racks of 20 pound LP cylinders right outside during the winter here in the upper northeast. The racks are right up against the stores, usually out front. I wonder if I can store the 20 lp cylinders the same way, outdoors. Would hiding them in banks, on all four sides, of hay bales help insulate them in the dead of winter?
Al, you asked earlier about jugs of water painted black: the caps should not be on tight, in case the water gets really hot and steam builds up and breaks/explodes the bottle. (Thanks to a Fluwikian for that caution.) For sand, probably doesn’t matter *if* the sand is dry.
Dude – at 11:54,
Could you give a little more detail about where to put the light? I imagine you have a propane tank out side and the heater inside with hose connecting them. Does the light have to go next to the tank/hose connection or can it be anywhere along the hose.
Its a great idea but may be difficult to implement without power.
It seems that the storm in Buffalo made things worse there than the earthquake, because of the cold. The only silver lining is they now have firewood for next year from all the downed trees. I was looking at all the hardwood trees around here that have suddenly shed their leaves. If we get a freak blizzard at least they won’t be overburdened with leaves which seems to be the cause of most of the downed Trees in Buffalo. Of course they handle snowfalls more efficiently than most areas, but it sounds a mess. Almost without fail, Nov 2 is our first light snow. How are the rest of you out there faring? I think I’m going to stop by one of the Garden Centers I noticed with a large supply of seasoned wood and see what they are charging. Get some stacked next to the fireplace for psychological reassurence. So much in life is how you handle any setback or problem. There are people I know that I dread being near if there is any emergency,because they lose it. Don’t think its only that they are behaving like drama queens. When whoever they have leaned on is gone they hang onto anyone in sight. More energy is wasted than on any real emergency. I am eyeing a swamp maple that bent over into a bow and has been dead for a year or more. Though still rooted, no bark. Should be well seasoned.I am going to keep one calender noted with temps and weather conditions, so it can be compared to next years along with any thing noticed in or out of the ordinary. We may not get a pandemic, but we are never short of problems.
diana – at 14:37 I am going to keep one calender noted with temps and weather conditions, so it can be compared to next years along with any thing noticed in or out of the ordinary.
Excellent idea. If you want a head start on this, run “agriculture temperature archive <your state name>” through your favorite search engine. For my state, the database of weather records is at CoAgMet (as in Colorado Agricultural Meterological Network). When I was a Crop Loss Adjuster, I used those records extensively to verify frost/freeze/rain conditions for the previous year, to justify a farmer’s insurance claim. It is a treasure trove of information. I hope your state has something similar.
Al, DennisC pretty much explained cold temps and propane. I live in North Dakota, have a 500 gallon propane tank and have had it freexe up once in the last five years or so. About forty below zero does the trick. It’s too cold for the liquid to evaporate.
Smaller tanks with less volume will probably start to give less gas as the temperature nears −40. BTW, the way they get the gas flowing again around here is to build a fire under the tank if no other, more suitable type of heater is avaiable. Kinda spooky, and you better not have any leaks, but it works.
Also. bales of hay or anything else that works as an insulator works very. well. Many folks around here pile smow on their tanks if we’re in for a prolonged cold spell. Snow is an insulator also.
Well, we’re in Maine but around here it usually doesn’t go below −10. My 100 gallon (or pound) LP tank has never frozen. I think I’m going to stock up on the 20 gal cylinders and bank them with hay bales. I don’t want to store them too far away from the house and will hide them under a tall protected deck, shielded from the wind, buried under bales of hay. I sincerely hope you don’t have to deal with −40 temperatures very often, what a challenge that must be.
Thank you Dennis in Colorado. I booted up something on climate. rutgers edu/state. I typed in my zip code and the National Weather Service forecast for my little town came up for the rest of the week. I’m not overly worried about a pandemic in the immediate future, more general conditions as I don’t believe in buying trouble, but like to be somewhat alive to any threat around.A new interest. Live on the end of an earthquake fault line and it burps now and again. My kids live in major Earthquake areas and theirs is having gastro intestinal spasms. So we have all lived through various degrees of quake activity,and all sorts of weather related problems. This will go into a looseleaf folder weekly with notations. Never know what insignificant seeming bit of information can end up being of importance. See it will be safe to keep the heat off for the rest of the week.
Just recieved my order of hot water bottles from Lehman`s. The hot water bottles from Lehman`s are a little spendy, but the best quality that I have found. Bought one for each of my family members.It does wonders in keeping warm in the winter. Also bought a 1 1/2 gal. tea kettle, will need plenty of hot water for all those hot water bottles.LOL. We have a wood cook stove to heat the water on, so we are good to go for the winter.
I have a lot of hot water bottles. One thing if you are asleep and lie on it, you might have my experience. It burst and did a thorough job of soaking through into the mattress. Since it was clean water it dried after a time without being a problem.I like a cold bedroom, but also enjoy being warm and cosy.
First of all, I would put the caps on the bottles. There is no way they are going to get hot enough to generate steam and shatter the bottles or blow the caps off. Not unless you are using some sort of parabolic reflector to heat them. Better to not waste the water. However, water expands when it freezes, and bottles of water left in my car during the winter have had the caps forced off.
Next, if anyone is serious about trying to heat their home with a passive solar using water as thermal mass, here’s one way you might do it: http://tinyurl.com/yjkp8n 50 55-gallon drums is a lot of water. I like the paper because it shows you how to calculate just how much thermal mass you will need for your climate. The you can decide if you want to heat the space or “temper” it - use the thermal mass to smooth out the day-night temperature swings.
For those who like tales of remote living with style, I can heartily recommend “Alone in the Wilderness,” the story of how Dick Proeneke built a cabin in the Alaskan wilderness by hand. For the nit-pickers, he wasn’t totally alone, but relied on regular delivery of supplies by float plane. That is not to diminish his accomplishment in any way. Watching this guy use an axe is like watching Yo Yo Ma play the cello. You can’t believe what he can do with it.
bump
I bought new sleeping bags, a tent ( down comforters and featherbeds we already had) and we had a Jotel wood burning stove installed in our fireplace. The item that makes me feel really prepared is the tent. A few months back, someone from Alaska wrote about how most of the people living in the villages have tents just in case. I like the idea of the hot water bottles, think I will get me some of those!
Glad to see this thread “remembered”. It’s a good one to study right about now!
I just wrote this on another thread - Wal-Mart has hot/cold packs for $1.84. Once warmed, they hold heat for a long time. I’ve bought three, but may buy a batch more and heat them in a homemade solar oven when it’s sunny. Their plastic cover is white, not black, so I’m thinking of making black cloth sleeves for them. I need any means I can to stretch my supply of 1lb. propane canisters for a Coleman ProCat heater. I like the idea of not having to fill and refill these hot packs, and they are not prohibitively expensive. We are using a tent as a warm place, so even a dozen or so of these, heated during the day, might help on a cold night.
Finally got my two hot water bottles with cozys from Vermont Country Store, and a week later DW had a day home with some sort of 24 hour bug. Even under the goose down comforter she was chilled. Filled up one of the bottles with hot water out of the tap. Her chill was gone in no time and I was overheating. Interesting thing is that there was still residual heat in it some 12 hours later. Worst case scenario, two hot water bottles should keep us both warm in bed even with no heat. Now possibly a face mask and/or hat for wearing to bed, as my face gets cold with the heat lowered too far. Great back up heat idea, and one of the least expensive. Even without power, heating water on a small stove is quick and cheap. Great prep! Recommended by this prepper..
Mods - sidescroll here thnx!
It isn’t just ice that can take out the power. Could be a mouse.
I’m really interested in hearing from folks in Colorado about their preps for the winter snows! Anyone out there that can report how things are going? What’s working what isn’t? What are we overlooking in our preps that we need to consider more of? Bad English, but you know what I mean.
A very interesting local eccentric died. A slim older man with a ponytail he refused to pay social security or buy car insurance. His home was without electrity or any modern conveniences. He was a throwback to the revolutionary war and lived his life according to his strict principles. Bartered and sold Maple Syrup to keep his farm assessment. Was cared for in the last days of his life by his neighbors. He was 76 and connected to his church. After they arrested him a number of times for lacking auto insurance, he stopped driving a bus covered in slogans from the revolutionary greats, and peddled everywhere on his bike. Swam naked in his pond. Lived free.The newspapers had stopped publishing his letters to the editors as they ran many columns, and basically said the same thing. Live the principled life. I don’t know if he was a happy man, but he lived his life his way. Pretty much in the 18th century mode.
Everyone, and I do mean everyone knows what can happen if the power goes. Everyone knows that they need a way to heat their homes and cook food. Everyone knows that sometimes it is a matter of life and death. Everyone has been there done that, several times over with no power or heat or food or water and yet the real stupifiying thing to me is most people don’t do anything about it but whine. there are a lot of ways to heat and cook and it doesn’t cost much to prepare. just do it ahead of the times that it will be needed. sometimes I do wonder how most people have survived this long. I mean yea really think about it. some of us still have some instincts to do something, and others just whine about it and wait for others to do something for them. I’m sorry but Everyone has been told time and again to have emergency preps on hand. if they don’t it’s their fault . I don’t feel sorry for them, I do feel sorry for the kids. sorry for ranting ……..I’ll go back to the kitchen now.
“Lady Biker — 29 December 2006, 16:25
sometimes I do wonder how most people have survived this long”
They survive because, in the end, someone always steps up and takes care of them.
Or they just get lucky and don’t find themselves in any kind of life and death situation. After all, most people in the “developed countries” have never experienced things like prolonged periods without power, or empty supermarkets, etc.
Was getting my cup of soup for lunch at the market when I noticed 6 cans of sterno for less than $6, for use in a chafing dish or fondue setup. Haven’t used my fondue pot for years, will have to check my cabinets. (My husband made the fondue. Whatever he did, he did to perfection… I’m slapdash.) I do have a small grill and charcoal for out of doors. I don’t see myself cooking. I’ll be heating up a few things, not cooking from scratch. Thinking about Irwin Ritchart, the somewhat eccentric man who just died and how he had lived. We have other people I have known, usually old timers, who live and lived just as simply, without modern frills.If it comes down to it, people can complain, but they will survive with or without power. Humans have managed without power for tens of thousands of years. I’m happy with my sheepskins,woolen oversized sweaters, down quilts and silk long underwear. So we open some cans, simplyfy, improvise… Those who aren’t emotionally prepared and are locked into a lifestyle that is truly incredably luxurious compared to tens of thousands of years past will be the ones who suffer. I see everyone here sailing through it, a little scruffier, but intact. Resiliance is the key.
Reporting in from Colorado…southeast sub. of Denver. Needless to say after 33″ last week and another 11″ so far today with a possible 12+” more, you can say most people are SIPing. Lots of people were unable to get out of their neighborhood last week. When streets were finally plowed they swarmed the grocery stores only to find very little milk, bread, eggs, and produce. The explaination was the supply trucks could not get here. Boy that sounds like a familiar senario. Most hardware stores have sold out of shovels from our first storm last week and people were waiting in line for stores to open to snatch up new arrivals. I can’t imagine living in Colorado and not having a shovel. After many many people got stranded in last weeks storm most people have listened to the warnings to stay home today according to the news reports. I am sitting here with a full freezer, a stocked pantry, and a smile on my face thanks to Fluwikie.
As Janiej 17:63 said, several feet of snow in Denver area last week and several more in last 24 hours have interrupted deliveries to stores. Lots of complaining about shortages — and that was just for a couple of days high absenteeism and supply disruption. Also difficulties with absenteeism and shift problems with hospitals. Seems a good time to talk with authorities about impacts of more long term absenteeism, supply disruption, etc.
Lady Biker, I know what you mean….at some point people are (or should be) just on their own, but too many good people bail them out & they don’t learn a lesson. At least most of them don’t die so there’s still time for them to learn, if they just would.
Diana, it’s always sad when a truly independent individual dies — we could learn so much from them, if it weren’t for their excentric ways people might actually listen to them & learn a LOT.
Janiej, thanks for taking time to check in — it’s hard to believe people in CO don’t have shovels — did they all just move there last week or something?? I know it sometimes seems that way because it’s hard to believe that they would leave it up to someone else to dig them out when they live in a state prone to snow. Go figure! It’s good to know that people are staying in — FoxNews reported some of your gov’t people reporting lack of water because everyone bought it up, & having to have it trucked in somehow because the WalMarts were out, etc. Your state & Washington state’s bad weather experiences recently should be a wake-up call for everyone, but unfortunately too many are sleeping peacefully instead of preparing.
I’m-workin-on-it, Hadn’t heard anything about the water issue. Perhaps the area shelters were stocking up in case of stranded travelers. There are no reports of any water supply disruptions to homes. A reporter did say that store managers were asking people “Not to hoard food”. He went on to say that when shoppers saw empty shelves instead of buying one of an item they grabbed 5. My daughter’s family live in Lafayette about a 50 minute drive from us. They had a power outage for about 4 hours last night. They laugh at me and my prepping, but now maybe they will listen to my suggestions. Yes, all the snow challenged drivers moved to CO this summer and forgot to bring a shovel. We are skiers so we are loving every last snowflake. Well, maybe not the ones in our driveway.
Lady Biker, I’m with you on those who would rather whine than make the effort to be prepared… that was the straw that broke the camel’s back in causing me to close my camping store a few years ago. That store was something that I truly believed in and it was like my baby, loved it to death, BUT after getting cussed out numerous times after an ice storm (which we had 3 days warning of… they cussed me because I had run out of most everything a couple days AFTER the storm hit), I lost all my heart for the business. Why bang your head against a brick wall trying to encourage people to prepare? Let ‘em remain stupid (and cold, and hungry), I say.
Live in suburb of Denver. Am glad I’m a prepper. Milk was not a problem as we have it delivered every week. Needed eggs, but none at stores. Good thing I have powdered eggs! Baked brownies and they turned out very good. Went great with hot chocolate. Stores had plenty of food, just hard to keep it stocked on shelves. I heard people complaining but there was really no reason for it, it’s just that their brand was out, or they had to buy 2% milk and not whole, or their sweetened cereal was gone so they had to get bran flakes. Not worried now about last minute prepping - I buy fresh items weekly and everything else was plentiful. Sugar, flour, beans, rice, etc. were all well stocked and people did not buy it. They went for the already made food. Good thing I can cook from scratch. Baking is a great joy when snowed in. Power has not gone out. We do not have wood burning stove. Have campstove with extra white gas. Have been worried, DH is shoveling too much snow. Reports of deaths from heart attacks. Caution to wood choppers and shovelers, if you don’t do it regularly, do it in small increments at a time. Take breaks. If you start to sweat, go inside and get your temperature back to normal, don’t shed layers and keep going. Neighbors are great, we all watch out for each other. We made homemade spiced cider. A wonderful feeling came over me as I sipped it. Can’t imagine bird flu right now, just how lucky we are. Happy New Year to all of you!
I’ve lived in Albuquerque, New Mexico for 24 years, and I’ve never seen as much snow as we’ve gotten in the past 10 days. 8″ last week and 13″ in my driveway this morning. Getting a lot of use out of the snow shovel left over from living in snow country before I moved here. Looks like a great ski season! (But not a great time to cook with a sun oven.)
ANd, in Alb.,it will be gone before you know it.Gotta love the Southwest sun.
We might as well learn how to cope with adversity now, because it is definatly in our future. If not by a pandemic of H5N1, something unforseen. Look at what Russia is doing in Europe. They have doubled the price of natural gas.We are comfortable now, but…. Snow’d in made some good observations, people are grumblers if they don’t get exactly what they are used to. Years ago I remember a comment by someone on welfare. “my man, likes his second pork chop, and they don’t give us enough.” The woman was annoying and mouthy… She really was irrate. Replying to the unresponsive T.V. I said “tough..” That complaint about welfare, stuck in my mind, since noone was giving me money for one pork chop, much less two..The people who do live by entitlements they assume will never stop, or even their own efforts, will have to learn the hard way. I include myself in that. We have been a very lucky country, but we have been slipping behind, and not slowly.I think preppers are ahead of the curve. Knowledge is never wasted.There is so much on the internet, to teach anyone willing, how to cope with any problem.Not just the flu sites. The road to self reliance has been paved by survivalists and the Mormons and others. Eventually it will be hip. It may not be the survival of the fittest, but certainly preparing yourself and your family is very worthwile.
Diana, maybe by the time it’s ‘hip’, they’ll make storage shelves that actually hold stacked canned goods! :-)
I agree with everything you said — we’ve become too complacent & dependant on our gov’t to hand us whatever we want when we want it. You never hear of the midwest states mouthing off because the rest of the USA isn’t pitching in to rebuild houses when they have wildfires wipe towns off the map, they do it themselves, through the laws of the land they’ve laid out for themselves. Why anyone else thinks they should be any different is beyond me. Those people who live along the coast should be prepared for what coastal living can do to their homes and lives, same for those who live in volcano prone areas, or flash flood areas, etc. We had a small section of Bham that flooded all the time, & it was ignored until a little girl got swept down a sewer drain….then it was pay the people for their houses, help them relocate, this, that and the other. I’m not hard hearted, but there should be a BALANCE of help & in an ideal world once helped yourself, you should be required to help someone else when you can! But it’s nowhere near ideal….still I’d take the USA over any other location at this point. But if we don’t watch it we’ll have a whole generation of people who don’t care and won’t take responsibility instead of just handfuls of those people here and there like we have now.
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What winter?? I live in upstate NY and there is no winter. Its uncanny its strange its not normal! We have had 1 day with snow on the ground..
What winter is right! Even here in FL we usually cool down a bit this time of year … down into the upper 60′s and low 70′s during the day … but we are getting into the 80′s. <sigh> I hope that doesn’t mean that the summer is going to be wretched.
I’m already not looking forward to hurricane season. With the winter weather being so strange, how much more strange will the weather in summer be that isn’t exactly predictable to begin with?
Very strange. The more we ponder on energy and on the lack of power the better off we will be able to cope with future problems. I feel sorry that the polar bears are on the endangered specie list, but do enjoy this milder New Jersey. Live in Jersey and you can survive anywhere in the world. Haven’t worn a winter coat yet this season. I believe 2006 will mark the definative change in the worlds weather.They might not have had a bad hurricane season down in hurrican alley for this one year, but next year and the years after will be stinkers. We all have to keep on our toes and be aware and alert to all possibile problems.It doesn’t mean we should be anxious or worry, just being aware is enough.