Discussions on H5N1 vaccines cannot be complete without touching on the issue of adjuvants. Here I relate a story that I have told before on the old forum but the thread is no longer available. Seeing the current interest on pandemic vaccines, I thought this might be a good time to bring this up for discussion. MF59 is the only adjuvant approved for use for flu vaccines in Europe for elderly people. It is not FDA approved. However, the current situation is such that it is the ONLY and therefore most likely proprietary candidate to be used as an adjuvant for a pandemic vaccine. I am telling this story as I understand it. You should all make your own judgment as to how to think about this.
‘Vaccine A’ is a book written by Gary Matsumoto, a NY Times and Vanity Fair journalist.
This is a very important story about the direction that the pandemic vaccine research is going. This is a very abridged version but still quite long so be patient as you read it .
The book Vaccine A tells the story of the controversy surrounding the adjuvant squalene and its possible role in Gulf War Syndrome GWS. An adjuvant is a chemical added to a (usually weak) vaccine in order to make it more effective. The commonest adjuvant used is aluminium hydroxide (alum). Squalene is present in some ‘proprietary adjuvants’ such as MF59 made by Chiron, and is not currently approved in the US. Animal studies show squalene to be problematic and associated with autoimmune and neuro-muscular dysfunctions. One recent study is here Autoimmunity induced by adjuvant hydrocarbon oil components of vaccine
Things came to a head around 1997–99 with the discovery of squalene antibodies ASA by researchers at Tulane university in veterans with GWS. This is significant because of the following:
1 squalene antibodies are not present in normal people, but present in 95% of GWS patients tested
2 level of antibodies corresponds with severity of GWS symptoms
3 only veterans who were in the DOD’s Anthrax Vaccine Immunization Program AVIP tested positive
4 AVIP personnel who had GWS-like illnesses but not deployed also tested positive
5 there is a higher than normal incidence of autoimmune disorders in GWS, particularly striking being ones that are extremely rare in men such as lupus
6 to date this test remains a ‘marker’ for GWS
It was suggested that ASA was the result of externally introduced squalene, and questions were put to DOD as to whether squalene was present in any vaccine, but specifically the anthrax one since so many veterans told stories of being sick after that particular vaccination. The DOD’s response was a lot of stonewalling, first denying ever using it, then admitting that they had used an experimental HIV vaccine with sqalene, and so on.
An investigation of the vaccination history of veterans showed many incomplete records, often with the name of the vaccine missing but only marked as Vaccine A (hence the book’s name). More disturbingly, it turns out that when you join the military, you have no right to refuse any vaccination or treatment, and personnel continue long after the war to be vaccinated, often against their will with threats of court-martial and dishonourable discharge. The question is whether these personnel were given experimental vaccines containing squalene.
While not suggesting squalene as the definitive cause of GWS, which is likely to be multi-factorial, it is significant that to date the DOD has steadfastly refused to conduct its own investigation to reproduce or refute the ASA link. Instead, even after the FDA finally admitted to presence of small amounts of squalene in anthrax vaccine batches, the explanation given was that these were due to ‘fingerprint oil’ contaminants during manufacturing. This is questionable as all vaccines are produced under strict clean conditions including the mandatory use of gloves.
So what does that have to do with the flu vaccine? Well, even though squalene and MF59 is not approved in the US, it is approved in the EU for one vaccine Fluad, a flu vaccine used for elderly people. According to Gary Matsumoto in his book, this vaccine was approved after one trial in Italy in care home residents using adverse events reports only. Since these subjects were elderly and most had other medical conditions, it would have been easy to ascribe adverse events to their pre-existing conditions. Nevertheless, approval was given by the EU such that MF59 can now be stated as ‘approved internationally’.
Fluad is made by Chiron, which also makes Fluvirin, the non-adjuvanated flu vaccine that is FDA approved and used in the US. However, it is co-marketed in Europe by Aventis-Pasteur, which of course is related to (the same as?) Sanofi-Pasteur, ‘the vaccine producing arm of the Sanofi-Aventis group’ as you can see here
Now we get to the fun part. In May 2004, Chiron announced that it had NIH approval to produce an investigational vaccine using H5N1 with the same process as Fluvirin, ie non-adjuvanted.
In October 2005 the following was announced:
‘Chiron Announces Promising Data from Clinical Study of Adjuvanted Avian Influenza Vaccine; Results Confirm Previous Clinical Studies: Chiron’s MF59 Adjuvant Significantly Enhances Immune Response’
BUT it turns out that this study is based on H9N2, not H5N1. For what purpose, one might ask, since it is already working on H5N1?
On December 15 2005, it was announced that Sanofi-Pasteur has published results of its H5N1 trials. Yes, the vaccine is effective but only weakly. Yes, alum adjuvant makes it better but only very slightly. (Now that we have convinced you that adjuvants are worth trying) we will now move to try a ‘proprietary adjuvant’ that might be more effective. Yes, you guessed it, MF59.
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/dn8478.html
For me, the government’s chain of logic works like this: We are going to have a pandemic, let’s get someone to make vaccines for everyone quick. Tests on vaccines based on H5N1 show that it is effective, but very weak and needs such high doses there won’t be enough for everyone. Therefore we must find ways of making the vaccine work at a lower dose. Hence, lets try adjuvants. We tried the approved adjuvant alum that everyone is comfortable with and it has some effect but not enough. At the same time, in other news, tests with other avian flu virus H9N2 using a different (better) adjuvant MF59 shows absolutely brilliant results. (Yes, we knew that MF59 was not approved when we funded this test but back then it was just an experiment on H9N2.) Now that we are really really desperate, there is no harm in trying H5N1 with MF59, is there? After all, it IS approved and has a good safety record in other countries. Except that we should all call it ‘proprietary adjuvant’ as much as possible, just so people won’t remember the squalene antibody business and start freaking out……
http://www.pressreleases.be/script_UK/newsdetail.asp?nDays=w&ID=30124
Stacking the deck for the use of MF59, the very important Jordan report on accelerating development of vaccines 2002 http://www.niaid.nih.gov/dmid/vaccines/jordan20/jordan20_2002.pdf appears to endorse the use of such adjuvants. Except that on closer reading the report is partly written by outside experts and 2 of the 3 authors on the section on vaccine technologies and delivery systems work for Chiron p.43 BTW there is at least another example of a vaccine (CMV) developed by Chiron and produced by Aventis-Pasteur (p.117) in this document. So when the government announces giving pandemic flu vaccine contracts to Chiron and Sanofi-Pasteur, one wonders how much real competition there is between these two suppliers for the US government.
So far, all the vaccine trials have used the presence of antibodies as indication of ‘success’. However, the presence of antibody is not necessarily correlated to actual ability to protect someone against the virus.
If you add all that together with liability protection for vaccine companies, you get a all-win situation for the companies. They are being asked to make a vaccine ideally for everyone on this planet. If they are going to use this ‘proprietary adjuvant’ then other companies will not be able to manufacture it without paying huge sums to Chiron & co. Basically they have a monopoly on a product that might not work or might even be harmful but is 100% insured against litigation at the taxpayer’s expense.
“In addition, sanofi pasteur is THE ONLY VACCINE MANUFACTURER to participate in FLUPAN, an EU-funded collaboration. FLUPAN partners include the National Institute for Biological Standards & Control (NIBSC -UK), the University of Reading (UK), Istituto Superiore di Sanita, (Italy), the Health Protection Agency (UK), and the University of Bergen (Norway). FLUPAN is intended to improve the level of pandemic preparedness in the EU. Sanofi pasteur is to produce a vaccine to combat another strain with pandemic potential (H7N1) that will be used in a FLUPAN clinical study.” http://www.pressreleases.be/script_UK/newsdetail.asp?nDays=w&ID=30124
I’ve sat on this story for many months since I last wrote about this. A recent attempt to find more safety profile data on MF59 failed to uncover any studies NOT including someone from Chiron or Sanoffi. That’s why I thought I should raise it again.
First thing that will happen in a pandemic will be passage of legislation making it impossible to sue for vaccine reactions, and rightly so. We will simply not be able to afford the time required to perform the level of due diligence regarding adverse reactions that the legal profession currently requires.
To put it another way. We can have 100,000 deaths, a Vaccine in six months and 1000 deaths from adverse vaccine reactions, or we can have a vaccine in twelve months, 10 deaths from adverse vaccine reactions and 300,000 deaths from flu.
what is an adjuvant?
An adjuvant is a chemical added to a (usually weak) vaccine in order to make it more effective.
It’s in the second paragraph.
Adjuvants work by stimulating immune systems that are too weak to respond to normal antigens, eg elderly. Using them in young healthy adults and children with robust immune responses is a whole different ballgame.
I leave you all to decide how much risk is acceptable, bearing in mind the implications of debilitating illnesses like Gulf War Syndrome.
Adjuvant are also implicated in vaccine site carcinomas in pets. I don’t have a link for that though, I heard it from my vet..
Pet-owner – at 20:23 Adjuvant are also implicated in vaccine site carcinomas in pets. I don’t have a link for that though, I heard it from my vet
Squalene and related oils are the stuff they give to laboratory animals when they want to induce cancers.
Labrador – at 20:05
The legal profession and the educated consumer both require a safety profile prior to participating.
Your numbers are skewed for illustrative purposes obviously. Bear in mind, we have no idea if any vaccine will be effective against H5N1 even if we could manufacture it.
What are your ideas about forcing a ring vaccination on citizens with an untested vaccine versus a fully-tested and vetted vaccine? Or should we ever force a citizen at gunpoint to take a vaccine?
Remember that 100% of the adverse reactions on file have come from fully-tested and approved vaccines.
What an interesting thread. Thank you anon_22
Pet-owner: Your veterinarian can get adjuvant-free vaccines for cats from Merial. Cats can get vaccine-associated fibrosarcomas which are very deadly. The vaccines will cost you a little more since your vet has to order them in a batch, but the cost is not that much more and you can convince him/her that it is a good idea since they can charge a little extra to other clients who are worried about this problem. Consider this an investment in your cat(s) and one that will benefit other cats in your neighborhood. Also have the vet give the vaccines low in the hind legs so that if the worst does happen and your cat gets a sarcoma, the leg can be amputated to save the cat. Cats can get along very well on 3 legs and it would be better to have a 3-legged cat than no cat. The vaccines by Merial are called PureVax and, no, I do not have any interests in the company. Hope that was helpful!
P.S. I believe that their Recombitek vaccinations for dogs are also adjuvant-free, but I’m not absolutely sure about all of them.
Many Cats-
Any info on human vaccines that are adjuvant-free?
annon 22. Probably a dumb question but what is ASA?
Anti-Squalene Antibody
Now has an Assay - ASA Assay.
NS1. Thanks.
Many Cats- Unfortunately I found out about that after my oldest cat died of an injection site carcinoma. :-(
Right now I’m looking for a vet that will do injections in the tail, but maybe I’ll consider the hind leg now too.
What is squalene. Does it mimic a natural biochemical molecule or is it unique in its composition?
Is this actually a US approved plan at this point or is it still in the works? I know that they recently did trials on volunteers, was this with the weaker adjuvant and they are now upping the ante?
ASA anti-squalene antibody
Squalene is a oil based substance used as adjuvant. I should have given the full title of that particular study linked above Autoimmunity induced by adjuvant hydrocarbon oil components of vaccine
This is one study, there are not many. But even fewer are safety profiles for squalene and MF59.
KimT,
When you read studies being quoted, pay attention to what adjuvant they are talking about. Sometimes it is alum, sometimes they will say proprietary adjuvant, which is one way of NOT telling you what it is so you have to do your own investigation.
This is the link to the site related to the book Vaccine A Matsumoto is a NY Times journalist. There’s a chapter at that site which tells quite a lot of the story about the use of such oils and army research.
One paragraph from that link:
“Immunologists have a special name for substances used to boost feeble vaccines. They are called adjuvants. Adjuvants are arguably the most extensively researched pharmaceutical product in the last quarter century that you never heard of. I have used the word adjuvant three times in this paragraph so far and that is probably three times more than you have ever seen it in print before. This is partly because the most effective adjuvants, those formulated with oils, are too dangerous for human use. That is squalene’s other proven ability, causing incurable disease, which is why it is such a touchy subject with the Department of Defense.”
anon_22,
This is an important story I’ve been following since Swine Flu. Thank you for telling it in a way that’s accessible to the lay reader.
Thanks anon_22
There’s also a message board where you can read some of the veteran’s stories.
This whole story needs to be read slowly and carefully. Take your time, do your own investigation, and consider the implications.
I’m going to bed.
anon. Oh no you don’t /:-). You can’t get us interested and then just go to bed.
First, do you know if squalene is a natural or synthesized oil product.
Secondly, I have always understood that oil works only to decrease absorption rates for a pharmaceutical. I don’t see a physiological basis and would like to know the physiological basis for it’s multiplier effect for immune response to vaccines…doesn’t make any sense.
Pet-owner: I am so sorry for your loss. We all try to do the right things for our animals and it is crushing to lose an animal in that way. I tried to save one of mine from a lethal viral infection (feline infectious peritonitis) and wound up essentially torturing her to death with an experimental protocol. The virus appeared to be in check for awhile but ultimately took her over, causing massive vascular breakdown. I would rip my arm off if it would bring her back so I could alter her fate and let her go quickly. It was an arresting experience and makes me wonder very much now exactly how I would handle things if someone in my family were to fall prey to a pandemic strain of virus. How far would I go, hoping against hope, to save them? Would it be kinder to let them go? How could I minimize their pain? What if they asked me to end their suffering? Too heavy for this thread I’m sure, but it shows you that what you think is the right thing may not be and what then?
NS1: Sorry I cannot help as regards human adjuvant-free vaccines. As my handle implies, humans are not my main thrust.
Tom DVM: I cannot comment on the mechanism of action for all adjuvants, but one theory is that certain irritants (adjuvants) cause the macrophages to continually invade the area until the irritant is either removed or neutralized in some way (walled off, etc.). The macrophages are drawn into the area for an extended period, increasing the opportunity for the antigens to be processed and thus increasing the liklihood that the body will be able to mount an immune response to one or more epitopes in the antigen of interest.
Many Cats. Thanks.
Ok, doing research here is a link, Use of Squalene as a Vaccine Adjuvant http://tinyurl.com/fgs9q Finding lots of interesting info http://tinyurl.com/qy4r4 http://tinyurl.com/gpmm9 http://tinyurl.com/nwtmk
However, the need for a vaccine with a total dose of 180 µg would pose a considerable barrier to rapid production of a supply that would be adequate to meet the world’s requirements should a pandemic occur. Therefore, dose-sparing approaches should be pursued aggressively. These approaches could include the use of adjuvants such as aluminum20 or MF5921 and the use of intradermal administration of vaccine,22,23 both of which have been reported to be potentially dose sparing for influenza vaccines in small studies. http://tinyurl.com/zthjy
On first blush, squalene seems like a good choice for an adjuvant. Manufactured naturally in the liver, squalene is a precursor for cholesterol. In addition, squalene can be purchased at health food stores in its more commonly known form, “shark liver oil.” However, ingested squalene has a completely different effect on the body than injected squalene. When molecules of squalene enter the body through an injection, even at concentrations as small as 10 to 20 parts per billion, it can lead to self-destructive immune responses, such as autoimmune arthritis and lupus.[9] http://tinyurl.com/pv7eh
I have read way to much tonight, but gave me a lot to think of. G’nite
Additionally, some adjuvants can be used to conjugate small antigens. As a result, the larger foreign material (adjuvant) causes body’s initial response, with macrophages then ingesting the adjuvant and, at the same time, the smaller antigen of interest conjugated to it. In this way, the smaller antigen stands a better chance of being taken up, processed and presented to other cells in the immune system. There will also be a difference between certain adjuvants which are labeled “complete” and “incomplete”.
Kim T, thanks for your post. I’ve been reading some of the same stuff this evening. Yes squalene is a precursor molecule to cholesterol, which is in human cell membranes. It’s very curious why the body would see it as a foreign substance when injected.
Here is one item that showed up at PubMed. Anon_22 if you are able to get the full article, it might be helpful?? Only a few sentences from the abstract are included here due to copyright notice. (And, thanks for posting about this!)
Biomed Pharmacother. 2004 Jun;58(5):325–37.
Autoimmunity induced by adjuvant hydrocarbon oil components of vaccine. Kuroda Y, Nacionales DC, Akaogi J, Reeves WH, Satoh M.
snipped from the abstract: “We have reported that a single intraperitoneal injection of the adjuvant oils pristane, IFA or squalene induces lupus-related autoantibodies to nRNP/Sm and -Su in non-autoimmune BALB/c mice. Induction of these autoantibodies appeared to be associated with the hydrocarbon’s ability to induce IL-12, IL-6, and TNF-alpha, suggesting a relationship with hydrocarbon’s adjuvanticity. Whether this is relevant in human vaccination is a difficult issue due to the complex effects of vaccines and the fact that immunotoxicological effects vary depending on species, route, dose, and duration of administration. Nevertheless, the potential of adjuvant hydrocarbon oils to induce autoimmunity has implications in the use of oil adjuvants in human and veterinary vaccines as well as basic research.”
PMID 15194169
Oops!
That’s the study I participated in, comparing alum and MF 59. Too late now…don’t think I should read all of this thread!
Many Cats – at 22:33
With your keen mind, I was just hoping that you’d have some additional info on the human side.
Many Cats – at 22:40
A adjuvant is purely and simply an immune system irritant or toxin that is intended to stimulate a larger or faster response.
The macrophages respond early to take out the trash, then other cytokines and immune cells may also be signalled at that time to join in the search depending on the antigen presented alongside the adjuvant. All of this working properly still depends on a fully functioning immune system, cell-to-cell signalling system and elimination system.
Many times these toxins are deposited for long-term storage (chronic disease) in the joints and in other cells that have higher proportions of fats, like your brain and nerves.
KimT
“In addition, squalene can be purchased at health food stores in its more commonly known form, “shark liver oil.” However, ingested squalene has a completely different effect on the body than injected squalene.”
beehiver,
“It’s very curious why the body would see it as a foreign substance when injected.”
You can drink milk, you can’t inject it. That’s the easiest way to think about it.
mom11,
Whatever you read about MF59, not everyone reacts to it, just as not every veteran who got the anthrax vaccine ended up with Gulf War Syndrome.
Many Cats - I also lost a cat to FIP, and I also kept him alive too long, far longer than he wanted to live. It was a sad lesson, but I learned it.
The Merck Index lists food items that contain squalene. Large amounts are in shark liver oil; lesser amounts in olive oil, wheat germ oil, rice bran oil, and yeast. The entry in Merck also lists articles as far back as 1956 about synthesis of squalene, as well as one article from 1971 about synthesis of a trans-cis-trans-trans isomer. Chemistry is not my strongest point, but to follow on Tom DVM’s question - yes evidently there is synthetic production of squalene. I don’t imagine the entire supply for vaccine production comes from shark liver oil, although I could be wrong on that.
Which confirms a suspicion I have had for a while about why my father developed these conditions, especially since we do not apparently have the genetic tendency for this in our family.
If this is indeed the case for this vaccine (using the MF59 adjuvant) I will not take it, nor will my family. Rather isolate as much as possible and take my chances with H5N1.
Hi Anon-22!
Thanks!
Actually, I’ve had one person after another ask me if Lupus may be causing all my dumb symptoms. I contacted one of the Lupus info. resources last week and they had a nurse call. She said all of my symptoms could be caused by Lupus. I don’t think the adjuvant would have caused this, if I do have it. Although, it could have caused it to become active. I’ve had 9 pregnancy loses, which is a common effect. I’ve had the joint pain also for about 11 years. However the rest of this junk sure hit quickly…after my first injection. I’m not planning on getting tested, because it doesn’t much matter, unless the trial testing site needs this. They said they are only interested in reactions and illnesses within 7 days of the injection.
Honestly, I’m not sorry I went to the trial. I feel so hopeless and helpless in regards to this H5. If we find this adjuvant will make people sick…we don’t need to mass produce it. We don’t need to worsen this situation!
Well, I spoke too soon about amounts of shark liver oil being available. This is a big health food item, and available in large quantities. From http://tinyurl.com/g8fo2:
“Deep sea sharks are a significant by-catch of the orange roughy and other fisheries. Shark livers are large (20% of the total shark weight) and contain considerable quantities of oil which is often enriched in squalene. Squalene is used as a health-food or is hydrogenated to squalane, which is used in the pharmaceutical and cosmetic industries as a lubricant and cosmetic base.”
Checking further on squalane (as opposed to squalene). At http://www.biomatnet.org/secure/Fair/F348.htm it says: “Squalene(C30H50) is a triterpene - compound with 6 unconjugated double bounds. This compound is a high value biological raw material which is used in large quantities as an intermediate for the manufacture of pharmaceuticals as well as in cosmetic formulations and health food products. Most of the squalene is hydrogenated to squalane (C30H62) which is the corresponding saturated compound. Squalane is also a high value biological material, that is mainly used in the formulation of cosmetics but is also used as a carrier of lipid soluble drugs.
In general pure (99 %) squalene is obtained from shark liver oil, especially from the livers of rare species of deep sea sharks. Squalane is obtained by traditional hydrogenation of squalene with Raney Nickel as catalyst.”
Does anyone here know if it’s squalene or squalane which is used as a vaccine adjuvant? I know the research sources say squalene is used, but are those sources possibly referring to the original product before hydrogenation to squalane?
Well it didn’t take long to get my own question answered. Searching at google and PubMed under the search term “vaccines squalane”, indicates that both squalene and its hydrogenated form squalane are both used as vaccine adjuvants.
See: Methods. 1999 Sep;19(1):87–93. Squalene and squalane emulsions as adjuvants. PMID 10525443.
Thank you Anon 22-
I touched on the problems with GWV and autism controversy surrounding vaccines on another post but no one asked a question. Frankly, I was amazed, MF 59 and the adjuvant mysteries is one reason HCW’s called union reps when a hospital told them they had to get a flu shot for employment. The last flu vaccine at my hospital was accompanied by a two page consent-explanation form. I’ve often wondered if people at the Dr.’s office or health departments had to sign one. By the time you got to the end people were dropping out of the line. You sign off, you get the shot, and no one is accountable for any problems except you.
Green Mom-The study wasn’t examining long term effects. That will come up later. However I would call the research nurse and let her know your problems now! Somewhere in your consent they agreed to pay for medical treatment as a result of injuries, but you have to report your problems first, but don’t count on it. MF 59 did cause a lot of auto immune disorders that showed up in the vets at different periods of time.
Labrodor and others: Surviving the flu with no quality of life or poor quality of life isn’t a good enough trade. Besides, adjuvants could be the very ingredient that makes your immune system crash and you get the flu, anyway. We have to demand safety, because if we don’t, we deserve what we get. I will not take a vaccine that I feel isn’t safe.
Bravo to you Leo7. I have this huge fear that the vaccine manufacturing process will become rushed due to the perceived urgency of the H5N1 problem, making an excuse to bypass safety issues. Heck, they already have bypassed safety issues, it sure won’t be any different when they are in a hurry.
BTW, mycoplasma contamination could also be a concurrent issue with some of the vaccines, it is a well-known problem in labs and manufacturing facilities.
The vaccine I got in the clinical trials used alum as the adjuvant. Its aluminum hydroxide. Its currently used in most vaccines. My concern was that it had thimerosal in it. Not that big a fan of having mercury injected into me but I figure lesser of two evils.
Sahara: Thank you. It is truly devastating to lose an animal and know that you increased their suffering in an attempt to try to save them. This has altered my thinking on the H5N1 issue, and I hope I would have the courage to let a loved one go without making their last moments worse. Our instinct and desire for survivial, for others as well as for ourselves, is hard to over-ride and there is always a glimmer of hope (at least that is what we tell ourselves when we have someone before us who, if it were not for the virus, would be vibrant and healthy). My cats have tried to teach me the lessons this pandemic will bring, as well as innumerable other lessons in life. I just hope I will have the ability to discern when it is better to stop trying and put my own needs to cling to a loved one behind their needs to die without enduring “heroic” efforts which will only prolong their agony. It is a hugely difficult dilemma because I am the type who has to be hit with a sledgehammer to really know when is the right time to give up (the big lesson my Maggie has tried to teach me). The one saving grace for me is that at least my family members might be able to verbally express their desires and be coherent enough for me to know that those are their true wishes. So many horrors yet to come…
NS1: Thanks for the kind words. Your posts always amaze me. You are the one person whom I have read who has made me feel comfortable with the idea of using alternative medicines. Please continue your thoroughly detailed, extremely well researched and informative posts; as alternatives are likely to be needed more and more should a pandemic become protracted in its duration. You have the power to convincingly sway the wary with sound reasoning. Continue to use your gift.
Thanks Beehiver: Clearly you get it…mycoplasma contamination is another story…You folks in clinical research studies please read this warning. One have them explain the study purpose to you and then take a copy of the consent form home with you. (they like to invite you to consent and begin the study on the same day, don’t do this). They believe you’ve been warned of risks and side effects when you sign the consent form. YOu are agreeing you’re aware of all risks and side effects and that in fact you accept and expect to have them. Consent documents are sometimes five and six pages long—I’ve seen them at ten pages. You need to read and study them in the comfort of your own home and not sitting across a desk from the people anxious to start you in the study so they can go to lunch. Don’t be rushed, if you feel rushed, Leave. A doctor isn’t suppossed to hold it against you regarding further medical care—if they do you can report them.
Research the drug etc looking at the dose as the main point. Many times they start with the highest known safety dose and work their way down. Some people get the highest dose, some the lowest dose etc. Focus your study on the highest dose side effects since you don’t know what you will receive and ask now that I just had a heart attack or stroke to I really need to cope with these problems too? If you decide to particpate-Make sure you get a copy of the signed consent form-which has your signature and the doctor’s (primary investigator)signature. You can use the doctor’s name to research other studies he’s been involved with and there outcome. Be aware that 99% of the people you trust (your doctor and his research nurse) would never enroll and in fact have never enrolled their bodies in a clinical trial. Clinical research subjects often ask the next question before they sign the consent. Would you put your wife/mother/mother in this clinical study? They have a pat answere ready while looking you sincerely in the eyes. If they don’t enroll you they are dropped quickly from the research group. Instead ask this: Tell me about your personal experiences in clinical research as a subject. If they believe in clinical research shouldn’t they have started in the basic step? If they haven’t been a clinical trial participant, why would you? I know, what you’re thinking…if I don’t we won’t have new drugs. Here’s my reply…exactly how many different drugs do we really need to treat blood pressure, cholesterol, pain? The safety studies have moved into the general population these days. Which means the drug may be available for prescription but the company is mandated by the FDA to still collect safety data from the general population(so it’s still experimental)…thus the Vioxx, Celebrex debacle. I personally don’t take drugs that haven’t been on the market over five years. I peeped behind the curtain and I wasn’t in Oz. Be careful!
mom11,
You are one of the most courageous people on this forum. Thank you for sharing your experiences. Do you still have any of the documentation eg consent forms they gave you at the time? They may not tell you much but it’s a starting point, such as which manufacturer etc. If you email me we can have a private discussion about what may or maynot be vaccine reactions.
Leo7,
Your advice about getting into clinical trials is so very useful, thank you.
“MF 59 and the adjuvant mysteries is one reason HCW’s called union reps when a hospital told them they had to get a flu shot for employment.”
I am wondering if you can elaborate a little about this. Do you mean that HCW were aware of potential problems with MF59? Were they actually USING MF59? I thought it is not yet FDA approved. What were HCW calling their union reps about? And how many did get the flu shot in the end?
Thanks.
Hi Leo!
I just pulled my consent form out. There is only half a page on any potential known side effects. Nothing more than the usual…flu like symptoms, site redness, soreness, and possibly an allergic reaction. They mention the Guillian Barre syndrome associated with the Swine Flu vaccine, but follow up, saying that no other flu vaccine has been associated with this.
There is one additional paragraph that states there may be unknown or unforeseen risks associated with taking part in this study.
The consent states that they will cover immediate, necessary medical care for adverse events, but not cover furthur treatment beyond immediate care.
I kept a memory aid, which was a form I recorded my temp. and any side effects on, for one week after each injection. When I had plurisey and then kidney infections, I asked them if this messed up the study results, on me. I was told no, because the infections didn’t start during the one week period, following my injections.
If anyone wants a copy of this form, I’d be happy to fax it.
One thing I did learn was that the clinical doc. and their staff, aren’t allowed to particiapate in the trials they are conducting. I asked and that is what they told me.
Hi Anon-22!
I just pulled my forms back out and will be happy to e-mail you.
I have to say this…I know all of you are probably thinking “What a kook!” She let them just stick anything into her body. The thing is…we just have nothing. Whether this vaccine is the one or not…(it isn’t)…it’s egg based anyway…I guess we have to have fools like me take it. If this one goes in the garbage can..that’s ok. It is still just “maybe” a stepping stone to one that will work and be safe. it does look like some adverse side effects of MF 59 were already known. If so, it is unfair not to let trial candidates make more informed choices.
I’m so like you…I CANNOT lose another baby. CANNOT! In this respect (or in any way), I am not brave…I am a coward! I know I am losing this H5 battle…as you can see…I’ll do just about anything!
I will write you a bit later. I promised my chicks I would go visit the Amish and buy a bushel of peaches to can…ugh! Thank you! Is your e-mail listed under your profile or does Dem have it? He has mine and anyone is welcome to it.
I can’t get you the type of details you’re seeking. HCW’s are aware that if they accept flu shots as mandatory for employment, we won’t be able to refuse one if it has adjuvants in it that could cause the same problems discussed in Vaccine A, or if we hear about adverse events. The author of Vaccine A got most of his clues from the medical research archives every teaching institute has avaiable to its students in training from all disciplines. If we’re not proactive, who will be? What did you think was going to be added to the flu shots for the elderly now that it’s been made known they need more of a dose to be therapeutic? Mom reports a clinical trial of MF 59 which means it’s being considered of course I’m assuming she is in the US. I don’t know what it will be, but I don’t think they can add more alum to a group that is looking at dementia and Alzheimers. Great, mom didn’t get the flu but she entered the alzehimers zone thanks to more aluminum floating to her brain.
The drug companies keep coming back to the same adjuvants year after year. The labels require in depth research just to determine what they’re speaking of that are the listed adjuvants. For instance there were rumors one flu vaccine contained Vit D. The nurse who told me about it said, I take it in my vitamins how will injecting it hurt me?” Sorry, I didn’t verify it by reading her consent form. I believe it was the 2003 dose. Most doctors and nurses I know don’t take the vaccines (granted they are for the most part forty or younger). Union reps or state nurses associations were called because some hospital adminstrators wanted to tell us what drugs to take. The National Nursing Association states they support flu vaccines, but maintain the right of the individual to choose which medicines to take and when. I guarantee if hospitals make them mandatory they will have a professional HCW shortage. Me, I’m leaving the bedside soon to go back to school but I would not work at a place that makes every vaccination invented, mandatory. Note to Anon: All hospital workers can usually get a free flu shot, what I see is the secreatries and maintenance people taking them more than the medical. The hospitals don’t keep such a list.
Leo7,
Thank you for your clarification.
Anon:
There is another issue rarely mentioned. What happens to the flu vaccines that aren’t used? I propose they are stored and trotted out, even years later depending on the strains chosen. Adjuvants can change year to year. How many people standing in line for the flu shot demand to see the vial their injection was drawn from, and check bottled and expiration dates?
mom11,
I understand how you feel and I agree with you. I don’t care about myself but should I let my kids take vaccines with MF59 in it? I’m not sure. I guess it will have to depend on the pandemic CFR and whether it is tamiflu resistant and so on.
At the moment, this is not a personal issue, more in the spirit of informing the public about something that is going on almost relentlessly but with very little scrutiny. I feel that there are too many gaps for me to be comfortable with this adjuvant, and hope that some folks who know more may be able to enlighten us further.
Leo7,
Procedures will differ in different places but best practice would include not just checking expiry dates but also ensuring ‘chain’ of refrigeration ie every step of transport etc are logged to ensure that vaccines have not been exposed to higher temperatures than required. It also includes logging each lot that is being used at the dispensary level.
Anon: Agree 100%, I believe we’re on the same page.
anon_22 – at 06:41
Remember that all depends on what you mean by react? Adverse reaction or as planned immune irritant reaction?
As an example of adverse reaction measurement, GWS in its acute presentation is hard to track; in its slow-burn or latent (normal) modus operandi, its nearly impossible to successfully dx unless the M.D. asks/knows about the military service record.
Practically everyone will react to the immune system irritant immediately because the body strongly desires to clear the toxin post haste.
The mid- to long-term effects are represented by the toxin that remains after immune response and the body’s ongoing efforts to pursue the last few molecules of the toxin at the expense of the tissue harboring it.
Neurological reductive sequelae are, in my opinion, the most likely and widespread in those having multiple vaccinations in a short period of time or those taking double dosages.
NS1,
What you say may be correct in principle, but as far as individual exposure is concerned, we do not have data that says everyone suffers from adverse reactions. That was my meaning for mom11. :-)
Mom 11: Just saw your comments. I was afraid that it would be only for immediate symptoms. I think you are brave to volunteer, sometimes when you’re in the inside you see a different picture. FYI, I was enrolled as a child in a research study, I’ve participated in two simple ones, so I’m a guinea pig too. However, somewhere in your consent form should be a mention of the IRB (Institutional Review Board) who gave the go ahead that the doctor could perform the research whereever you’re located. The IRB is made up of professional and laypeople who usually meet monthly to review research protocols for safety. Somewhere in your consent form is their phone number. Also your side effects listed in the consent form should have included all known side effects for MF 59 listed under it by name. Please note all described side effects of the injection-painful, swelling, red etc. MF 59 side effects should have been spelled out too. That is why it’s called INFORMED CONSENT. If your form doesn’t list the known side effects of MF 59, read every single line (frankly I’m amazed a vaccine trial consent form is so short) you can call the IRB phone number and register your complaint. Somewhere in your consent, look at margins where headers and footers are, the study was given an IRB number it is simple, usually stamped like Mb-12. This will help focus the complaint. Do your research and have it in front of you when you call. Let them know you want someone to contact you after it’s been discussed, to tell you what changed after your complaint. Successful clinical sites are usually in a second wave of research. The study might be just like yours but focusing on safety or a different dose. They could still be enrolling in your exact study, and IRB’s review and give permission on a yearly business. They also have the power to stop research if something isn’t right.
It’s not fair not to spell out what is known. From what you wrote you would’ve particpated anyway. If they seemed to leave out a lot after you’ve done research and you want it corrected make that call. Also, call the doctor. His phone number is in the consent too, as the primary investigator. Call him and tell him you’re disappointed he didn’t catch that goof off and that you are reporting to the IRB, because you feel betrayed or whatever you’re feeling, if you are. Clinical studies depend on good hearted people like you, and believe me everyone but you is making money on your particpation. If you don’t want to report it that’s fine too, but I would keep that consent handy in case you have medical problems later—don’t toss it. And Mom, when the study is over good researchers are supposed to call and ask or either mail you the final study results. If it’s over ask for your report. Most patients don’t ask, and don’t receive. Researchers may not particpate in their own studies cause (wow what if something went wrong?) but they aren’t locked out of others in their department. When I worked in research I particpated in a nutritional survey over two years and cholesterol levels, and a vitamin study. These were simple but helful studies and I wasn’t risking my health on a new drug. Hopefully this helps some and thanks for thinking for the good of mankind, few do.
Year ago I read an amazing expose in Vanity Fair on this very issue - the evidence pointing to the anthrax vaccine as being the cause for Gulf War Syndrome and the cover ups that were in place. I was outraged for our soldiers and wrote to all my representatives with little or no response. This story which in my mind was and is HUGE has been covered up effectively and that is so scary! - because it means that we really do not have freedom of the press as we think we do. The US Government poisoning our service men and women is a huge story and one that the whole nation should have cared about and done something about, but it eerily got no coverage with the exception of that brave Vanity Fair article. It makes me paraoid and I’m not the paranoid type!!
We have to make sure that in our eagerness to develop large quantities of a vaccine, we do not end up letting these few pharmaceutical companies poison the entire world!!!! That would make the flu look like the lesser of two evils! What do you want to bet that the scientists at Chrion and Aventis-Pasteur who are aware of the risks posed by these new adjuvants wouldn’t partake of the vaccine for themselves nor their families.
Whatever “vaccine” my dad received that affected him exactly in manner described above (autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus) was long before the Gulf War, so this has been going on much longer than that, sadly enough.
I worry that the focus that seems to be on “vaccines” as the solution to this problem (as voiced by some government and health leaders) is going to later force these same leaders to embrace any vaccine — proven or not — in order to make good on their promises. I don’t want just any vaccine — I want them to support the research and development needed to create a safe and effective vaccine. However, I’m sometimes afraid that the idea will become “any vaccine is better than none”, which — even in my rather unscientific brain — is not good logic or good medicine.
The issue for me goes beyond one adjuvant. It has to do with whether there are adequate checks and balances built in. Normally one would expect that in a society with rule of law etc fear of litigation would have a certain degree of deterence against the worst outrages. Since the end of WW2 one would have expected in any decent society that any human experimentation would have full informed consent. However, it seems that the US military has a different set of rules and an entirely different standard of (non)accountability, and, more importantly, vaccine companies have been systematically using this loophole and using military personnel for research without consent. Under the guise of national security, technologies are developed which are then patented by individual scientists for private gain.
What is most appalling for me is reading the Jordan report which chronicles the successes of 20 years of vaccine development at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) and the future direction, and finding the cosiness of the relationship between a national institution which is supposed to safeguard its citizens, commercial entities, with military research institutes using human guinea pigs without consent.
If you follow the link to the report, the authors for the chapter ‘Vaccine Technologies’ are Dr Margaret Liu : “Vice Chairman of Transgene and Consultant for the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. She also is a member of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID) Council, the chairman of the Scientific Advisory Group of the International Vaccine Institute in Seoul, a member of the Board of Directors of the American Society of Gene Therapy, and a member of the Science Advisory Board of the Elizabeth Glaser Pediatric AIDS Foundation.” etc
Derek O’Hagan, PhD: “Since 1995, Dr. O’Hagan has worked at Chiron Corporation in Emeryville, CA. He is Director of Vaccine Adjuvants and Delivery Systems, a position he has held since 2000. Dr. O’Hagan has made a number of pioneering contributions in the use of systemic and mucosal delivery systems for a wide range of vaccines, including proteins, peptides, DNA, and protein polysaccharide conjugate vaccines……Dr. O’Hagan is on the editorial boards of Vaccine, Pharmaceutical Research, and Critical Reviews in Therapeutic Drug Carrier Systems. He has published more than 80 papers, 15 reviews, 12 book chapters, and 2 books. In addition, he has filed more than 25 patents.”
Jeffrey B. Ulmer, Ph.D. “After completing his postdoctoral training in the laboratory of Nobel laureate Dr. George Palade at Yale University School of Medicine, Dr. Ulmer spent 8 years at Merck Research Laboratories where he conducted seminal work on DNA vaccines. Since 1998, Dr. Ulmer has been at ChironCorporation where he is Senior Director of Vaccines Research and is responsible for protein, DNA, and adjuvant technologies for vaccines. Dr. Ulmer is on the editorial board of Expert Opinion on Biological Therapy and has published more than 100 scientific papers in the fields of biochemistry, cell biology, immunology, and vaccines.”
The next chapter ‘Progress in Immunologic Adjuvant Development: 1982–2002′ was written by
Frederick R. Vogel, Ph.D. “Dr. Vogel is Project Leader at Aventis Pasteur and is based in Marcy L’Etoile, France. From 1999 to 2002, he was Formulation Platform Leader, Product Development, at Aventis Pasteur in Swiftwater, PA. Prior to joining Aventis Pasteur, Dr. Vogel served as Program Officer in the Division of AIDS, National Institute of Allergy and Infection Diseases (NIAID), in Bethesda, MD. His previous pharmaceutical experience was with Lederle-Praxis Biological, Pearl River, NY, where he was Senior Research Scientist. Dr. Vogel’s primary scientific interest is the study of adjuvants and delivery systems for vaccines. He is a member of the American Society for Microbiology.
Carl R. Alving, Ph.D. “Dr. Alving has been Research Investigator at Walter Reed Army Institute of Research since 1970 and Chief of the Department of Membrane Biochemistry since 1978. He is also Adjunct Professor of Microbiology and Immunology at Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences. He developed the first highly successful application of liposomes as drug carriers—for treatment of leishmaniasis. Dr. Alving is the co-inventor of needle-free transcutaneous immunization, a technology being commercially developed for immunization by skin patch. He has been author or coauthor on more than 200 scientific publications on vaccine adjuvants, lipid biochemistry and immunology, and liposomes as drug carriers and carriers of vaccines, and he sits on numerous editorial boards. Dr. Alving holds 20 issued U.S. patents. (including ones on squalene - anon_22)
Dr. Alving is a member of the American Association of Immunologists, American Society for Biochemistry and Molecular Biology, and American Society for Microbiology; a founding member of the International Endotoxin Society and International Liposome Society; and a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science AAAS (The journal Science is AAAS’s flagship publication). He was the third recipient of the Alec Bangham Award for lifetime contributions to liposome research and was elected Chair of the Fifth Gordon Research Conference on Drug Carriers in Biology and Medicine.
Carl Alving’s name appears in the index of Matsumoto’s book with a long list of references under such headings as conflicts of interest, criticism of squalene antibody study, deception by, dismissal of squalene adjuvant risk, as proponent of MF59, etc
There is not even a pretense of an arm’s length policy.
InfoLady,
“Whatever “vaccine” my dad received that affected him exactly in manner described above (autoimmune diseases such as rheumatoid arthritis and lupus) was long before the Gulf War, so this has been going on much longer than that, sadly enough.”
It would appear that this was entirely possible. The research on using various oil emulsions as adjuvants started almost immediately after WW2.
I have a question. there has been talk off speeding up the vaccination process by updating the technologies-using cells instead of eggs which as I understand it has a risk by itself. If they use squalene adjuvant in the same process what will happen?
is that possible to do?
KimT – at 20:05 “I have a question. there has been talk off speeding up the vaccination process by updating the technologies-using cells instead of eggs which as I understand it has a risk by itself. If they use squalene adjuvant in the same process what will happen?
is that possible to do?”
My understanding is that cell culture and adjuvant are not mutually exclusive. ie one gives you the antigen, the other makes the vaccine more immunogenic.
One thing to remember is that squalene/MF59 is currently not FDA approved. So keep your eyes out for ongoing research or efforts to get approval. My guess is that they are having a hard time meeting the standard in a normal way, otherwise they would have gotten it by now. My concern is a pandemic being used as a special national security situation to bypass FDA approval.
Ana_22, what do you think about creating a letter that we can send to our legislators about this? I think it would be good if we just listed some talking points so that it’s not just a cut and paste - each letter would get more attention that way, I’m thinking. You’re closest to the subject so I would prevail on you to list the talking points which I will start, but which when it’s agreed what they should be we should potentially list in a new thread entitled something like “Vaccine Safety - Please write a letter to your legistlators”. This is so important.
Talking Points
….and more. You can certainly do a better and more thorough job listing these “talking” points.
Felicia,
First of all, I’m not a US citizen, so it would both be inappropriate and irrelevant coming from me.
Secondly, this is an extremely complex issue. I would encourage you to spend a couple of weeks reading up everything you can get your hands on before writing anything. This is to improve your credibility and also to educate yourself about ongoing barriers to discussion. For example, there are numerous cases going through the courts all the way to the Supreme Court concerning various aspects. One of the most vigorously contested battle (by the Pentagon) is the issue of the Ferres Doctrine, which essentially says soldiers cannot sue the military for not exercising due diligence.
Furthermore, campaigns and petitions are only as good as your ability to follow through. I am not discouraging anyone, far from it. But I AM saying pick your fight very carefully, find that one piece that YOU think you can make a difference, then put everything into it.
My own understanding is that this is so big that almost no one is willing to take it on. Why do you think the media is silent? Even Matsumoto, if you read his site, is unwilling to pick up the baton. You gotta ask yourself why.
Having said that, any attempt towards transparency and in support of human rights will always get my full support. :-)
The unfortunate status quo is that we have always experimented on our soldiers, public employees and sometimes unknowing citizens.
The list could be continued to fill several books.
This situation is the norm, so as now-informed citizens you can begin to study the general character of expedience that is shown. Be informed that your personal study on these matters will drive your personal health positively or negatively.
Gather and Solve
annon 22.
OK then, what’s the bottom line on vaccines?
What are we to take from this information?
…and have anti-virals been given similar treatment in the last three years?
Tom DVM – at 21:44 “annon 22.
OK then, what’s the bottom line on vaccines? What are we to take from this information? …and have anti-virals been given similar treatment in the last three years?”
Oh, I wish I have answers. I really don’t. I’m trying to learn as much as I can. It’s a little easier on a personal level, either you take the vaccine, if it is available, or you don’t. It’s much harder to think on a collective level what is the best way forwards.
My best hope? That somebody makes a whole virus pre-pandemic vaccine that is single dose and needs only use alum as adjuvant. This is within the limit of current possibilities.
As for MF59, I would be extremely unhappy to see it become THE adjuvant for a pandemic vaccine to be used on millions and million of young people. It would keep me awake at night for many years trying to figure out how many case of lupus or MS was created.
I don’t understand your question about anti-virals. Can you ask it again?
At one time I started to read a report about vaccine experimentation in the early eighties on citizens but I couldn’t continue. I didn’t want to know. I became very sick after vaccinations before leaving the country in 81. Within a couple of weeks, I began showing symptoms of the autoimmune disease I have increasingly suffered from since. The two shot sights have always given me problems, hardened, darkened skin, open soars for weeks. We used to live in a small town where many people died of cancer. A few years ago they won a settlement from the government because in the fifties they always waited until the wind was toward this town in Nevada before nuclear detonations. Then they would come to the school and test the children but never tell why. I would rather slip back to denial but this thread makes that hard.
Allquietonthewesternfront,
I’m sorry this brings up bad memories for you. Just know that there are people who care enough to at least bring this to the light of day. And who knows? Some of the cases getting to the Supreme Court look like winners, and the whole thing could change then.
Anon_22 - I am thrilled you have shone light on it. I hate facing it but I don’t want others going through what I have. I will research any H5N1 vaccine before we take it so thank you.
Eccles – at 19:32 I aggree with you wholeheartedly. Your poor Father.
As a 19 yo medical student at Johns Hopkins, my Mom participated in research in which they put a vial of radium down her throat to shrink inflamed tissue. It was research for the WW2 war effort. She developed thyroid cancer 45 years later, and died. Alot of student/junior research people have suffered or died over the years.
a correction….
The clark – at 23:02 should read
InfoLady – at 19:24 I aggree with you wholeheartedly. Your poor Father.
I don’t know about anyone else, but I plan to use the wait and see method. I don’t feel I would make a very good ginnie (sp) pig. I can’t afford to be one either. Personally, I do not trust our government when it comes to medications or if they just get a whim. A quick fix could kill just as many people. Believe me when I say I have my reasons. gina
I’m glad this topic came up because many here write that they want “anything” to fight 5 to 1 and deal with health consenquences later. I feel that type of attitude might shorten normal safety checks. Vaccines aren’t health nirvana and they aren’t sugar pills. I will demand safety reports etc before I accept them or my children. Adjuvants will need to be closely checked because it’s obvious they will be needed to keep the vaccine to one shot. We can have a safe vaccine, effective? well that’s another story.
“Be informed that your personal study on these matters will drive your personal health positively or negatively”
NS1, I’m not sure I understood this. Do you mean our decision to take or not take the vaccine? Or do you mean something more sinister?
Anon22, I understand that this issue is complex, but surely a horde of people clamboring for accountability and answers with limited understanding of the issues is potentially more effective than just a few well researched soldiers like you taking on the issue. We live in a world of sound bites and short attention spans. So, for this issue to reach the consciousness of the average citizen, it would almost have to be marketed to them as something worthy of their hue and cry. I guess I was always shocked that the issue seemed so well covered up even with the excellent Vanity Fair article. I would have thought the news media would have run with it and forced accountability via something like Senate hearings. Perhaps the time is now ripe to reopen this Pandora’s box and force a discussion. Or maybe I should be more cynical and know that these companies must be very well protected at very high levels and that to take them on is stupid and dangerous. I detected a bit of fear in your postings.
annon 22.
Why is your emphasis on a whole virus for making the vaccine?
As far as the anti-virals go, it seems to me that they have been unrealistically oversold and I wondered if conflicts of interest could have played a role here also…
…We well know that the range of influence of pharmaceutical companies extends a lot further than anyone could comprehend or trace in many cases.
Hi Leo!
Thanks for all of the info.
I checked my Informed Consent Form. There is nothing other than the usual side effects mentioned. I actually feel icky tonight, so have gone through it three times, to be sure…There is nothing listed as known side effects for the MF59. The only info about MF59 says that is is approved for use as an adjuvant in Europe, is investigational here, and the FDA has not apporved it’s use in the USA. No known side effects were listed for the MF59.
If I had been told…the side effects all of you have brought to light…I do not know if I would have gone for this trial. I honestly was hoping to particiapte in a trial, that would offer hope for all of our “chicks.” However, I was called twice for this study because they weren’t able to get enough candidates. Each day this stupid virus is creeping closer. Presently, we only have 4,000,000 doses of any H5 vaccine. This study is to hopefully be able to stretch this pitance of vaccine, with the use of adjuvants. It was the “stretch” that hooked me. I realized if this monster broke out right NOW, ALL we have are 4,000,000 doses. I felt like stretching, was all we have…right now. I couldn’t sleep the night before I went…of course a 70 mile drive with five wild things…could have been the real reason! I do know that, I would rather someone practice on me, than this thing break out and I would be forced to chance a virus with an almost 100% fatality rate or giving my babies a vaccine with no human trials. Would I still allow my children to have this vaccine? I would have to weigh the risk of this against the attacking virus. Although now it would seem foolish to give them something that may cause serious side effects….letting them die of a virus with almost certain death…well…. I’ll have to weigh all this when the time is here. I just hope we at least, will have the option of a choice.
Felicia – at 23:49
A deeper study will drive your personal health more rapidly onto a positive journey; otherwise, we are just leaving it on cruise control and letting someone else navigate.
Nothing left-handed here.
anon_22 - Thank you so much for posting the MF59 story again. Fascinating - in a frightening sort of way. Being one to blindly trust in our government, pharma, etc. to do what’s in the public’s best interest, I had no clue. No more. I’ll do all I can to be informed on this issue and will think long and hard before I or my family take any future vaccine.
Any possibility that spouses or children of military personnel would have received any of the same vaccinations, or am I reaching?
Felicia,
Everyone should choose to do what they are comfortable with. I’m not the crusading kind by temperament, plus I have too many obligations already. This needs the efforts of a very dedicated one-issue kind of people. AND don’t forget a lot of veteran’s self-help groups are already doing a lot. It would be good if you feel inclined to find them and link up the panflu community with the gulf war syndrome vets community.
Tom.
Whole virus vaccine has the following advantages (as far as I can tell but I may be wrong):
1) need only one dose
2) whole virus is a stronger antigen than subunit, therefore less need for boosting with strong adjuvants
3) more likely to stimulate all round immune response, not just antibodies to surface antigens, which is what we have now
“Any possibility that spouses or children of military personnel would have received any of the same vaccinations, or am I reaching?”
No. They were not given to spouses or children.
There were stories of spouses and children of veterans with GWS who were sick, but the symptoms were not compatible with autoimmune illnesses. Some postulate a transmissible agent but there is no data to support it. Remember that GWS is likely to be mutli-factorial so we don’t know whether there were additional components to the problem that were transmissible.
One major ‘evidence’ supporting adjuvant/vaccine rather than chemical exposure or other environmental causes of GWS is that there are no cases of GWS in soldiers of any other country than US, UK, Canada, and Australia, who were given these vaccines. Nor were there any among journalists, Arabs, and all the other people on the ground in the first Gulf War. Plus as I said earlier, personnel who received the vaccines but not deployed also got sick.
bump
closing thread cos of length. part 2 here