Which prepping items will become the most scarce if and when we get sustained human-to-human transmission of BF and the “masses” really jump on the prepping band wagon? Kerosene? Generators? Solar Chargers?
We have a “Top Off” plan for what we will rush to the store and buy once there is sustained H2H, but we are wondering which things we should be aiming to pick up first. Thanks in advance for your input.
there is a link here somewhere about what items were in high demand in Bosnia during the war. I’ll try to find it.
Whoops - that was me who started this thread, Cache Cow. Thanks KyJack - will look forward to it. I would imagine TP and Matches will be highly valued!
at the top of the page you can search for topics-put in this * Flu Pandemic Preparedness Guide * at the bottom of the page is appendix 1 100 items to disapear 1st
or link to it.
sorry link didn’t work
This may seem somewhat frivolous, but fresh citrus fruit (oranges, grapefruit, tagerines,etc) is on my list. I love to eat all of those, and they do keep quite well in the fridge and even at room temperature, if you are careful in your selection.
They are loaded with vit. C, beneficial phytochemicals, etc. And I will dearly miss them for what I fear will be a very long time.
I could see the supply lasting 3 to 4 weeks.
The rest of my “Top Off” list-Onions, Potatoes, Extra Virgin Olive oil, Flax oil, Dogfood, Catfood, Gasoline, ATM Cash
All of the other critical items mentioned in these various threads have already been stockpiled. To add to those critical supplies would only be for purposes of barter, and I think it would be better for my neighbors to purchase those limited supplies for themselves.
Oops, that was me at 9:35. There must be some “housecleaning” being done on this site, or the gremlins are loose again. : )
http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Forum.100ThingsMostNeededInAnEmergency
(birth control -would your neighbors forget that?)
I think a top-off plan should not include things like generators, fuel, money, ect.
It puts you out in public too long, and “The Public” was all waiting to do anything until they knew pandemic was real and then they will all panic and go want those many items, but, make sure anything very important you get now, before pandemic starts. The fresh fruit/produce/perishable stuff, if you have enough notice ahead of the public, or, there aren’t a lot of unexplained cases at your hospital, might work.
Canned meats. If electricity reliability becomes a problem then I would think canned meats might be in high demand. That and toilet paper.
Towards the end of Dec. in 1999, our local grocery store was almost cleaned out of 2.5 gal of water (everyone last minute prepping for a potential Y2K prob).
Sorry, I meant to say 2.5 gal jugs of water.
crfullmoon: I am assuming with my list that we here at fluwiki (with our “inside” information) will have a two or three day jump on the madding crowd. If I get surprised, I could do without all that I listed above. It was indeed “topping off” stuff that I already have on hand in generous amounts. Not a bad idea to buy a little bit more of the fresh produce from here on out, especially with Monotreme’s post today on the likelihood of a pandemic in the light of newly published research.
One of the things I most fear is that—despite all our forewarning—our last minute preps will be the thing that exposes us to the virus. What did someone say: it will be global in about 48 hours from patient X? I think at some point we need to say “enough is enough” and let it be and hunker down as much as possible. But at what point do we do that?
That said, I’m out again today for more stuff. But, would like your thoughts on mine…
I find the formatting of this list much easier to read than that in the link. Thanks to Muskrat for this list.
100 Items to Disappear First
1. Generators (Good ones cost dearly. Gas storage, risky. Noisy…target of thieves; maintenance etc.) 2. Water Filters/Purifiers 3. Portable Toilets 4. Seasoned Firewood. Wood takes about 6 - 12 months to become dried, for home uses. 5. Lamp Oil, Wicks, Lamps (First Choice: Buy CLEAR oil. If scarce, stockpile ANY!) 6. Coleman Fuel. Impossible to stockpile too much. 7. Guns, Ammunition, Pepper Spray, Knives, Clubs, Bats & Slingshots. 8. Hand-can openers, & hand egg beaters, whisks. 9. Honey/Syrups/white, brown sugar 10. Rice - Beans - Wheat 11. Vegetable Oil (for cooking) Without it food burns/must be boiled etc.,) 12. Charcoal, Lighter Fluid (Will become scarce suddenly) 13. Water Containers (Urgent Item to obtain.) Any size. Small: HARD CLEAR PLASTIC ONLY - note - food grade if for drinking. 16. Propane Cylinders (Urgent: Definite shortages will occur. 17. Survival Guide Book. 18. Mantles: Aladdin, Coleman, etc. (Without this item, longer-term lighting is difficult.) 19. Baby Supplies: Diapers/formula. ointments/aspirin, etc. 20. Washboards, Mop Bucket w/wringer (for Laundry) 21. Cookstoves (Propane, Coleman & Kerosene) 22. Vitamins 23. Propane Cylinder Handle-Holder (Urgent: Small canister use is dangerous without this item) 24. Feminine Hygiene/Haircare/Skin products. 25. Thermal underwear (Tops & Bottoms) 26. Bow saws, axes and hatchets, Wedges (also, honing oil) 27. Aluminum Foil Reg. & Heavy Duty (Great Cooking and Barter Item) 28. Gasoline Containers (Plastic & Metal) 29. Garbage Bags (Impossible To Have Too Many). 30. Toilet Paper, Kleenex, Paper Towels 31. Milk - Powdered & Condensed (Shake Liquid every 3 to 4 months) 32. Garden Seeds (Non-Hybrid) (A MUST) 33. Clothes pins/line/hangers (A MUST) 34. Coleman’s Pump Repair Kit 35. Tuna Fish (in oil) 36. Fire Extinguishers (or..large box of Baking Soda in every room) 37. First aid kits 38. Batteries (all sizes…buy furthest-out for Expiration Dates) 39. Garlic, spices & vinegar, baking supplies 40. Big Dogs (and plenty of dog food) 41. Flour, yeast & salt 42. Matches. {”Strike Anywhere” preferred.) Boxed, wooden matches will go first 43. Writing paper/pads/pencils, solar calculators 44. Insulated ice chests (good for keeping items from freezing in Wintertime.) 45. Workboots, belts, Levis & durable shirts 46. Flashlights/LIGHTSTICKS & torches, “No. 76 Dietz” Lanterns 47. Journals, Diaries & Scrapbooks (jot down ideas, feelings, experience; Historic Times) 48. Garbage cans Plastic (great for storage, water, transporting - if with wheels) 49. Men’s Hygiene: Shampoo, Toothbrush/paste, Mouthwash/floss, nail clippers, etc 50. Cast iron cookware (sturdy, efficient) 51. Fishing supplies/tools 52. Mosquito coils/repellent, sprays/creams 53. Duct Tape 54. Tarps/stakes/twine/nails/rope/spikes 55. Candles 56. Laundry Detergent (liquid) 57. Backpacks, Duffel Bags 58. Garden tools & supplies 59. Scissors, fabrics & sewing supplies 60. Canned Fruits, Veggies, Soups, stews, etc. 61. Bleach (plain, NOT scented: 4 to 6% sodium hypochlorite) 62. Canning supplies, (Jars/lids/wax) 63. Knives & Sharpening tools: files, stones, steel 64. Bicycles…Tires/tubes/pumps/chains, etc 65. Sleeping Bags & blankets/pillows/mats 66. Carbon Monoxide Alarm (battery powered) 67. Board Games, Cards, Dice 68. d-con Rat poison, MOUSE PRUFE II, Roach Killer 69. Mousetraps, Ant traps & cockroach magnets 70. Paper plates/cups/utensils (stock up, folks) 71. Baby wipes, oils, waterless & Antibacterial soap (saves a lot of water) 72. Rain gear, rubberized boots, etc. 73. Shaving supplies (razors & creams, talc, after shave) 74. Hand pumps & siphons (for water and for fuels) 75. Soysauce, vinegar, bullions/gravy/soupbase 76. Reading glasses 77. Chocolate/Cocoa/Tang/Punch (water enhancers) 78. “Survival-in-a-Can” 79. Woolen clothing, scarves/ear-muffs/mittens 80. Boy Scout Handbook, / also Leaders Catalog 81. Roll-on Window Insulation Kit (MANCO) 82. Graham crackers, saltines, pretzels, Trail mix/Jerky 83. Popcorn, Peanut Butter, Nuts 84. Socks, Underwear, T-shirts, etc. (extras) 85. Lumber (all types) 86. Wagons & carts (for transport to and from) 87. Cots & Inflatable mattress’s 88. Gloves: Work/warming/gardening, etc. 89. Lantern Hangers 90. Screen Patches, glue, nails, screws,, nuts & bolts 91. Teas 92. Coffee 93. Cigarettes 94. Wine/Liquors (for bribes, medicinal, etc,) 95. Paraffin wax 96. Glue, nails, nuts, bolts, screws, etc. 97. Chewing gum/candies 98. Atomizers (for cooling/bathing) 99. Hats & cotton neckerchiefs 100. Goats/chickens
From a Sarajevo War Survivor: Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.
1. Stockpiling helps. but you never no how long trouble will last, so locate near renewable food sources. 2. Living near a well with a manual pump is like being in Eden. 3. After awhile, even gold can lose its luster. But there is no luxury in war quite like toilet paper. Its surplus value is greater than gold’s. 4. If you had to go without one utility, lose electricity - it’s the easiest to do without (unless you’re in a very nice climate with no need for heat.) 5. Canned foods are awesome, especially if their contents are tasty without heating. One of the best things to stockpile is canned gravy - it makes a lot of the dry unappetizing things you find to eat in war somewhat edible. Only needs enough heat to “warm”, not to cook. It’s cheap too, especially if you buy it in bulk. 6. Bring some books - escapist ones like romance or mysteries become more valuable as the war continues. Sure, it’s great to have a lot of survival guides, but you’ll figure most of that out on your own anyway - trust me, you’ll have a lot of time on your hands. 7. The feeling that you’re human can fade pretty fast. I can’t tell you how many people I knew who would have traded a much needed meal for just a little bit of toothpaste, rouge, soap or cologne. Not much point in fighting if you have to lose your humanity. These things are morale-builders like nothing else. 8. Slow burning candles and matches, matches, matches
Dang it, the wikie changed the formatting. DEM, you might as well delete this one when you have time. Sorry folks.
uh, what happened to #s 14 and 15? cant wait to see what those are since theyve already disappeared from this list…
I think anything that helps minimize water usage will be a biggie here in the deep south:
Also, I don’t know of a lot of modern households that keep large dishpans handy any more. So I think that will be a surprise need.
Also, clothes line and clothes pins … because in most new communities here in Florida they aren’t even allowed because of deed restriction. That will be a big surprise for those zero lot-line subdivision suburbanites.
Another thought is the anti-viral/anti-bacterial cleaners like Lysol and bleach.
Those folding wooden clothes racks might work, too, in the basement or garage if you have to, or the bathtub, even.
Wasn’t trying to get after you, Medical Maven, it’s just I worry we’ll all get surprised anyway, (darn asymptomatic contagion and unrestricted air travel) and I know so. many. people that are waiting until a disaster is already starting to go get anything that I worry the authorities will see the “panic” they keep saying they are trying to avoid.
Like Anastasia, I’d hate to commit a possibly unfixable error by staying out in public contact too long, thinking I surely had one more safe day.
Hmmm. And on a third thought, the stuff that constitutes a “clear liquid” diet like jello and clear broth … for those that have been ill and unable to eat a regular diet.
Bread products like crackers, cookies, flour, cornmeal, etc. … especially the ones that only require milk or water to prepare … will be especially needed.
Was isopropyl alcohol on that list? For disinfecting thermometers, ect, and can be burned as fuel http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Forum.RubbingAlcohol
100 Items to Disappear First (from Sarajevo).
Remember that it gets very cold in Sarajevo during wintertime, so you will have to adjust for that. This list was for a particular place in a particular situation (civil war).
From a Sarajevo War Survivor: Experiencing horrible things that can happen in a war - death of parents and friends, hunger and malnutrition, endless freezing cold, fear, sniper attacks.
I do not know what happened to item number 99 and 100. They weren’t there :-)
European – at 14:12: I do not know what happened to item number 99 and 100. They weren’t there :-)
Some things desapear faster than others! ;)
pool shock
The 100 things sound familiar to me and I appreciate them being posted here. Are they from Ragnar Benson’s book?
What item will become the most scarce?
1 word:
MASKS
Buy ‘em while you still can.
I’ve spent a great deal of time planning carefully that what I stockpile that I will need anyway, certain things I will buy just for the flu (masks, gloves, antibiotics) and things that I will buy last minute. My trigger is H2H in the US.
I echo anonymous @ 9:35.. fresh fruit: apples, bananas, grapes, pineapples, kiwis Fresh vegetables: lettuce, celery, cauliflower, brocolli, carrots, peppers, tomatoes Cheese: all types
Most everything I see on the lists above I can and have bought ahead of time.
I purchased several outdoor solar lights (the kind that collect the sun all day, and then shine near a patio or walkway at night) - someone made the nice observation that you could bring them into the home at night to provide light if the utilities go out. I noticed that you can also purchase solar powered motion decectors - which might be nice to put up to warn you of anyone who comes near the house.
I also bought a tarp and funnel to collect rain water, and a hand pump (under $5) that can be used to syphon gas out of a car gas tank. I also took someones suggestion to buy a janitorial style mob bucket with the attached wringer that can be used to wash clothes.
Today I received my “krank” radio that I purchased on line from Radio Shack.
Dr Osterholm warned Oprah’s audience that everything is just in time delivery. SAFE WATER is not assured because even city water supplies have just in time inventory of chlorine. I called Olympia, capitol of Washington water dept. to ask how much chlorine gas they have on hand at any one time. They usually have 7–10 days worth because it has a very short effective life span. Checked surrounding cities same story.
After a lot of reading and many phone calls around the country, I feel confident in the following recommendation for treating polluted water in an emergency situation.
Buy a gallon of regular Bleach— no extra smells, additives etc. Buy 2 pint bottles of 3% Hydrogen Peroxide appx. $2
Put them both in your emergency supplies. Try to rotate the bleach out every 6 months as it will loose 1/2 its effectiveness in that time period. No need to rotate hydrogen peroxide, it takes 34 years to reach half life.
An application hydrogen peroxide chemist, at the research center, for a huge international chemical company gave me the following advice. Hydrogen Peroxide is not a good enough disinfectant to use for treating water for drinking, not at 35%, 50% or 70% grade all of which his company sells. There are situations and applications of hydrogen peroxide used to make water OK to drink but it takes many steps and a carefully monitored process. Do not be convinced by sincere folks who are selling these grades to treat your drinking water.
Use 1/2 teaspoon bleach per gallon of water. If the bleach is near the 6 month period or has been opened for a while double the amount. Wait 30 minutes for the chlorine to kill all the bugs. The chemist’s scientific term.
When you are ready to drink the water put 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of 3% hydrogen peroxide into the water and stir. YAHOO, there is no chlorine taste!! Problem solved no bugs and no yucky taste. The hydrogen peroxide DOES destroy the chlorine.We tried it and it tastes fine.Please pass this on to others.
Remember to have some buckets and a clean tarp to catch rainwater.
.
I added an anchor to the above comment so it can be linked to.
In reference to having fresh fruits—perhaps you could do indoor bushes? Some nurseries carry mini orange trees that you can keep indoors in pots. You can also do berries. To at least have some fruit, you can always dehydrate or buy canned?? I’ll never forget the little oranges my mother was growing indoors when I was little—I pinched them all off and whoa was I ever in trouble. She babied those plants to get those little oranges. I haven’t been fond of oranges ever since :O
I bought white flour today, 25 lbs. That will be rare. I have about 300 Irish tea bags vacuume sealed. Cannot do without it.
Looks like I need to get some peroxide. That makes using bleach so much easier. Thank you for the info.
Thanks for the Top 100 Items in Demand, I did laugh when I saw Goats and Chickens#@! at number 98 lets give the chickens a miss this time..
Assuming I have all the stored goods I want (which I don’t now!) I will definitely buy whatever fresh items there are - milk, cheese, fruit, veggies. They won’t last forever but at least we’d have some for awhile. Top off the car, cash from ATM, etc.
City Slicker – at 19:05
I couldn’t find the original source for the janitorial bucket for washing clothes but if you’ve ever tried to do it in the sink with hand-wringing you know it’s hard. Great, simple idea, and should be easy to find.
To add to that, I abandoned my electric dryer five years ago and figure I’ve saved 1/5 my electric bill since; amounts to $1500 over that time period. To that end I’d add for suggestions along these lines: wooden (not plastic, which break) clothespins, and a couple of good strong clotheslines, with two strong eyehooks for each.
The wooden dryer rack is very handy if you have small items to dry near a fire.
I have a long list of other items that I copied from somewhere on the web. May I paste it in here or is there an issue with attribution? I don’t remember just where it came from. I have added to it.
Owl - go ahead and paste. This is a subjective topic - no need for atribution if you can’t find it.
Best,
Cache
I have an idea for washing clothes. Use a small, clean (new) 20 gallon plastic trash can. Cut a 2″ diameter hole in the middle of the lid. Use a new toilet plunger to agitate the wash in the can. Be careful not to use too much soap or you will be rinsing a long time. Use a second trash can for rinsing. Since water will not be expelled out of the trash can as it would in a washing machine, there will be some soap left on the clothes. The easiest way I have found to remove this is by using a garden sprayer. Fill the 2 gallon sprayer with warm water, pump it up and spray clothes, rags, etc. over a tub .
The floor mop sqeege is an interesting idea for wringing out the clothes. I have one and will try that on some rags.
The garden sprayer is also useful for taking a shower with warm water.
Things that will be short supply are those that someone else grows or manufacturers that can’t be easily used or delivered if there are fuel shortages. For many of us, that’s almost everything. Take an inventory of what you use every day. If the effects of a pandemic last for several years, what could you do without for that period, if necessary? Could you substitute for it? An example is the discussion on this thread of how to do clothes washing & drying without using a washer & dryer. Fresh fruit & vegetables are another category. Stocking up at the last minute won’t help over a long period, but learning about what’s needed to grow a garden successfully in your area of the country and getting one started would.
For a long time now I have been going through stuff and deciding-do I really need this? Can I find a non-electric substitute? Examples-crank canopener for electric, french press pot instead of Mr. Coffee (even though I still need the hot water.) French press also does not need filters-another plus. Doing chores around the house without flipping on the lights, using a clothes line.
My family loves fresh fruit but we cant grow many things here-like citrus, so I’ve concentrated on berries-which grow very well here, and also preserving as much as possible. If I feel I can safely top off, I will definatly fill the fridge with as much milk, and produce as it will hold.
Green Mom – at 17:13 …If I feel I can safely top off, I will definatly fill the fridge with as much milk, and produce as it will hold. ………………………………………………………
Green Mom, you probably already know this but you can freeze those gallon containers of milk, just pour out a bit to allow for expansion when freezing. I usually put a bit of plastic wrap back over the top before recapping to help create a better seal. If you have a large freezer (the top of my wish list, sigh) you can also use them to fill the empty spaces and increase efficiency…two birds with one stone and all that.
Let it thaw in the fridge and shake it up well before using. Some people think it tastes a bit different when it thaws but I haven’t especially noticed (although I can’t stand milk, bleech). Well, I take that back…it seems to make more of a difference with skim/1% milk and not so much difference with the richer milks (of course, you could always buy whole milk and then water it down when you use it; I have been known to resort to that in times of extreme budgeting). If nothing else, it still works great on cereal or with flavoring mixed in ~ and the kids will take it over reconstituted powdered milk any day! ;o)
(ps - I’ve been doing the same thing that you have with re-evaluating assorted appliances and boy, when my gas mower died yesterday, I was sure missing my old push mower!)
In a panic, people will buy what they always buy in a panic: milk, eggs, bread, bottled water and batteries.
If TSHTF, I will run for the batteries for sure in that I don’t want to prep a ton of them in that they have a shelf life and are expensive. I plan on also running for the cheese, meats and fruits - again, have a shelf life.
Do you think if a pandemic were declared tomorrow, that going to a really small neighborhood store might be better than heading to a Costco? I think we have to have a game plan of where we are heading off to.
I hope that if it goes h2h in North America, I can stop myself from running out to the stores to grab last minute items. SIP is quite likely a long term event. You are going to forget something. Someone is going to say “didn’t you get any ----“. I said a while back to my husband that I did not want anyone to say “how could you forget----?” He told me that I’ve done my best and it’s impossible to have everything. It’s what you do with what you do have that is really important, assuming of course that you have prepped. From this I’m working on convincing myself that yes I did a great job and despite what I forgot we’ll do just fine. Those items I don’t have or items that I didn’t need aren’t going to make that much difference. I have thought of water, money, fuel, heat, cooking, food, beverages, medicine, clothing, helping others, security, staying cool, exercise, and activities. It may give me a sense of completion to make that last run and I’m not saying I absolutely won’t do it but I want to try and not do it.
On my short mental list of things to buy in a last-minute scenario, cigarettes and booze is near the top.
I don’t drink or smoke. But I figure if I’ve forgotten or need something really vital many months down the road (my asthma meds come to mind) a case of cigarettes or a bottle of vodka will barter very well … OTOH, because I don’t drink or smoke, if I find the stores are all out, well, oh well. No huge loss.
There are good plans available for large food dryers. I had one made of wood about 2′x3′x4′high which used 100 watt light bulbs installed in the bottom. it had about 5 nylon screen shelves and screened cutouts on top. Running a fan across the cutouts speeded up the process. When the electricity went out, we removed the bottom and replaced it with screen and sat the whole box over the old wood-burning furnace vent. I don’t have the box or the furnace any more, but this scheme could be made like an old-fashioned smoke house and put over a cool fire of coals. String beans can be threaden onto cotton twine with a large darning needle and hung over the stove or near a fire. Almost anything can be smoked dry, just remember to have cheese cloth or screen to keep the bugs off. Sun-drying works for sweet corn and some fruits like apples and apricots. A good substitute for fruit is rose hips if you can get them in bulk. I’m trying to remember how long it took the old sailors to actually come down with scurvy, but it seems like 3 months was really dangerous, so vitamin C is essential—the reason orange marmalade became famous…but for those sugar-babies out there, something sugarless, like rose-hip tea is great.
Remember to save all that water you have used to wash clothes and bodies. If you use non-phosphate soap, you can use it to water the garden and to flush the toilet. Even with “bad” detergents, this will work, although some say you should filter or percolate the grey water before using on the garden. Remember to use the used water to mop the floor and rinse the porch before watering the garden. For a quick insect removal and prevention, add a little salad oil to the soapy water and spray on the plants. Scalding dishes after washing, using the tea kettle, will save lots of water once you get the hang of it. Ironing clothes is something we can do without—drying outdoors in a stiff wind will leave them almost wrinkle free—but remember that ironing linens and diapers will sterilize them. I suppose those old-fashioned irons that were heated on the stove might be something to think about. I prepared for home-birth by making bed pads of newspaper inside sheeting which I put in a slow oven to sterilize, but I can’t remember how hot or how long. Maybe someone out there knows this way of sterilizing linens, etc.
Thanks for the water info, it’s just what I was looking for.
I bought a couple clothes racks like those in dept stores (though not as expensive - you can pick em up about anywhere) to dry our clothes inside. My children would DIE if I’d shrink their clothes at all, so I’ve never used the dryer for their items (aside from undies and socks). I put shirts on a plastic hanger (don’t get that hanger shape at the shoulders) and I put their pants/jeans on 2 or 3 hangers together depending on how heavy they are. I do lay sweaters and such out flat on the washer to dry though because they would take that hanger effect at the shoulder and the sweater would pull out of shape too.
Once their clothes are dry, I always put them thru the dryer (easily skipped if need be) on air only to fluff them up.
My concern with a pandemic would be that many will become looters. Depending on your area, someone may take your clothing off your line. Another benefit would be the weather in the north during the winter. You might not be able to get things to dry with freezing temps.
Clothes will dry in the freezing cold through a process called sublimation. Growing up we had 1 woodstove for a three story drafty farm house where your glass of water froze overnight during the winter and you woke to a glass of ice--- We would hang our clothes in the attic where they would freeze solid and then the next day bring them down and after they warmed up, they would be dry.
bump
can any think of a reason matches would be better than a bunch of Bic lighters?
In super cold weather, the butane could freeze. OTOH matches can get wet. Better not to have all the eggs in one basket.
hopefully they wont freeze if its in my pocket
I just ordered some freeze dried foods to try out, and they were absolutely delicious. For those of you craving fruit, dried fruit is wonderful! I ordered freeze dried lasagna and I am definately buying a lot more now that I have tasted it. It stores for 5–6 years also.
MAV in Colorado, if you have to light something with a narrow opening, like a kerosene lantern, kerosene heater, or Kelly Kettle, the Bic won’t fit into it, but a kitchen match will.
OK,so, some of each I guess. thanx
kc_quiet – at 22:14 If it gets cold enough to freeze butane, {−216 F (−138 C)}, bird flu will be the least of yer worries ;-)
Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.