Forum: Solar Generators for Dummies

Or - should I also title it “Calling Hillbilly Bill”! Or anyone else who knows…..

We can’t afford a full-blown standby generator and a cheaper, portable model doesn’t last very long and requires gas (which may or may not be available). My main concern is being able to run the well pump and perhaps get on the computer once in awhile. I can go for days without other things - we have enough non-cook food items, wood for the fireplace, etc. but need water. I am hoping that electric service will be intermitent but not out forever (may be faulty assumption but it’s all I’ve got). So I was thinking solar as an affordable option. I researched several portable solar panels for camping etc. But I have a really basic question - with the portable options you can plug appliances directly into the unit. But how do I run my well pump off it? Am I going to have to wire the thing myself directly from the box inside my house?

Thank you - clueless in CT

lauraB - Sorry, I’m not your guy for this question. I have not researched solar because my house is totally surrounded by REALLY tall trees. Honest to God, you need to be in a plane to see my house.

I know Eccles has recently focused his prodigous mental abilities on this question. Also, jonc has experience with solar.

laurab- there is a thread called “todays flu prep” which is down the list aways. I think this was discussed some there and I think it contained a link to another thread with more information. If I was confident that I could make the link without sidescroll, I’d post it!

I found a solar cooker on eBay today. I’m planning to use it for boiling water and cooking soup.

laura B-15:10 Is your well pump AC (alternating current) or DC (direct current) with a conversion from AC which is standard house electricity?

Try Here

Okay, I’m feeling brave and I have tried to make the link to the thread I referenced above.

Watch out world- I have a new skill! :)

Is your well near the house, in the house or away from the house?

lauralou – at 15:45 “Watch out world- I have a new skill! :) “

Way to go lauralou!!! I screwed it up the first 6 times I tried to do that…

LauraB- I’m not sure how affordable the solar option is, but lets discuss it in your case:

You want to be able to run your well pump from a solar system. Very astute. Unfortunately, not very cheap. Here’s the problem in a condensed form- well pumps are rather power hungry devices which usually require 220 volts at a fairly high current. As an example, the 1/2 horsepower well pump at my house requires about 900 watts to run, but about 2800 watts during startup. thus, to run a 1/2 horsepower down-well pump like I have (pretty much the standard unit around these parts), you would need an inverter that puts out 220 volts and can support a load of 3000 watts. Such an inverter costs about $350 if you fins a good deal on the web.

In order to drive such an inverter, you need to use a storage battery to “collect” the power from the solar panels, as a solar panel system big enough to run such a thing directly would be cost prohibitive in the extreme. It’s kind of like saving the solar power up in a big tank so you can use it much faster than you can collect it.

If you run the well pump for 15 minutes every third day, you would need to accumulate about 30 amp-hours per day to even have a shot at making things work out even. This would require at least 60 watts worth of solar panels charging a 200–300 amp-hour battery.

The panels would cost a minimum of $400, a charge controller (required bit of equipment) another $50 or so, and the batteries about $200.

Add it all up, and you get an absolute minimum of $1000 investment. About the same price as a modest generator that can run your well pump. the big difference is that solar is often (but not always)shining, whereas gas may become unavailable for long periods.

this is only an intro to the subject. Do not go running off to either start or reject such a system, but this should let you know the absolute minimum you need to use solar for your needs.

As always, I encourage fellow wikians to agree or disagree with this analysis, either way, we help LauraB

Looks like JonC and I overlapped replies. Either way you get good advice. lets keep going.

lauraB : Unless you have a really swallow well it take a lot of power to pump water. We pump from 300 feet with 600 watts of direct solar with a switching device called a linear current booster. That is on a jack pump setup. Today’s cost to replace all of my solar pumping would be about 5000 USD. A very slow low flow set up can be had for about 1/2 of this price. BUT, it takes a special pump down the well. The cheapest solution , if you have the room is a 2000 to 3000 gallon tank that will meet your needs for an extended period. Kelly

I knew Eccles would jump in sooner or later. Just a further bit of emphasis on what Eccles said, I don’t know what section of the country you live in but a week of cloudy weather now and again screws the whole deal. That is the other problem with solar in my area even if I were to cut down all of those trees :-(

Eccles-15:49 Thank you for the watts needed to run the pump. 2X solar kit #90599–1VGA gives you 90watts solar w/ charge controlers @ $200 ea. 2X 12v deep cycle batts(the big ones) at sam’s @$65 ea. 1 2000watt inverter #92464–1VGA with 4000watt surge capability @149.99 at www.harbourfreight.com. Still a little pricy at $680.00 , possibly doable with little experience.

Eccles: I have serious doubts about 1. finding an inverter for 350 USD that will sustain 3000 watts, and 2. have the quality of power that will not burn out the pump at some point. The other assumption are optimistic. Not being critical, but I have lived with and powered my house and well for 19 years with solar and there is a learning curve. Just like building a house, go ahead and start, but expect that it will cost more and take longer than expected. Kelly

NP1 - I was just posting what the absolute minimum survival type of system would cost. You are absolutely correct about the price of the inverter. I was just picking the best priced unit I could find, and there are probably more appropriate (but expensive) units that would be better choices.

Your experience in these matters is extremely valuable for us’ns, since you’ve been “hands on” for 19 years. you’ve seen everything that we all are eventually going to fall into.

O.K. where there is a will there is a way. While your power is on pump water into a storage tank. Cut that system I talked about at 16:02 in half and use a 12v RV pump to pressurize your plumbing system.

I love my lifestyle, but it requires a lot of learning and some upkeep. Get Homepower magazine, Backwoods Home, start learning. Even if you live in a city you can power up a room or two on solar. Learn to conserve if nothing else. We do not hurt for electric toys. We have lots of lights, three desktops all networked to sat disk for internet, TV(vcr and cd,only, please, I don’t like TV anyway )stereo system,ect. We do ok for being 5 miles from the power lines. Not many neigbors. But I do have to drive 38 miles to work. Tradeoffs, always trade offs.Kelly

jon c – at 16:22: great comprimise. The pump to do that will run about 150 USD( get a Sureflo) and one small panel and battery. Will only give you about two faucets or one shower at a time but it will work. You can plumb it in now with a diversion and valve and it will be there when you need it. Gotta get that big tank.

From having a solar setup (and thus concurring on all the expenses listed in the other replies), I agree with NP1 at 15:51′s recommendation: If you are concerned only about the water and believe that the power will be on intermittently, then getting a large tank that you can fill when the power happens to be on is the cheapest, and simplest, way to go. Now, of course, there is one other thing to consider. If you do get the gear needed to be able to run your well pump via solar power, then with minimal additions (basically a few more panels and a 110v moderate sized inverter) you can also have electricity for other uses during periods of outages. I want to make sure that we can microwave meals, make bread, have hot coffee, and have some lights on a sustained basis.

microwaves draw way too much power.

Np1–16:30 I am currently using surflo to run my water out of a tank. They work pretty good. I found mine for about $85 USD at a RV shop. We are 20miles from the nearest power and use wind and solar. We will never go back on the grid even if possible.

“[D]raw way too much power” in terms of inverter size or energy used? Small microwaves are only around 600 watts which is well below the output of moderate sized inverters and in terms of energy used, it just means a larger panel setup. I suppose it all depends on how much one wants to have hot food.

We have a microwave but we have 1200 watts( solar input) on the house with a 3600 watt sine wave inverter. But it does draw a lot. We have 2000 amp hr storeage in HUP One batteries.Kelly

jon c: If I may ask , what part of the country are you in? Kelly

jon c, the harbor freight inverter does not come with power cords, but can pick them up at auto zone.

Np1–16:56 Northern Arizona. Right up against the Navajo Nation.

I’m NE of Snowflake. Should be only couple hundered miles from you. Kelly

Hey neighbor!!!!!!

We are about 35 mi E of Flagstaff

Grew up in Flagstaff,but have not lived there in many years.Kelly

We work in town, nice, long drive. We are behind Sunset Crater.

Nice area . Had drinking parties there once upon a time. At that time there was nobody living out there. Kelly

Kids still have drinking parties in the area. Sheriff does not like to come out there.

laura-B if you need a 220 v inverter…..I have a website that carries them…….(www.dcacpowerinverters.com) they have 24 volt systems also.I’m still trying to figure this electric/ solar thing out too…..1st I thought 12volt then 24 volt to 115 ac.all the things I need to run are 115/120 volt total of 17 amps…….the best way for me to do what I need to do is I need 2000/4000 peak watts I am puting 1 deep cycle battery in my car linked to a 2nd marine battery linked to a 2000 watt inverter I also have a remote starter system on my car that can be programed to start my car every hour and run it for 35 mins to charge up my car batteries.I’m giving it a shot if it works my 4 cyl van has a very large tank 32 gallons at this rate I should be able to stretch my petrol.does anyone have a better way to do this…..solar is way to pricy for me….I hope it all works…keeping my fingers crossed.if anyone wants it I have a site for wind genee’s for under 700.oo ( if you guys see a small mushroom cloud over south mississippi you know it didn’t work……eccles what do you think? will she blow or do you think I will be safe?

Mstrbubbie-18:47- If the wind gen under $700 is an Air X by Southwest windpower you have made a wise choice. I have been using one for over 2 years and love it. No controller needed.

Link for the wind genny please

So I glad I asked! This is far more complicated than I thought. I had bad info on what it takes to run a well pump, and mine is a 3/4hp to boot so it takes even more. We actually have two wells and both are quite deep - one 250+ft the other over 500ft (we live on rock here in CT). I don’t think wind power is an option - even less consistent than solar around our house. We can manage a few days at a time without power (we loose it around here often enough that I am used to it in some sick way) but beyond that we all start to get a bit crabby peeing in the woods. Like we all say - plan for the worst - hope for the best. Thanks for your input! I’ll continue to do research and try to figure it all out.

Eccles - as always, you’re the bomb!

I enjoy my power. I have been using a Generator for some time. I do not have allot of sun and the wind is very low. I have allot of trees. A small stream that stops flowing in July. My well water pressure is high so I can hand carry water if need be. What I need is a way to pump water into my house without a generator. Solar and wind are out what about a steam system to generate power? Any other Ideas would be helpful.

I read a book once on human powered stuff. They hooked a bicycle to a pump to pump water into a tank. They had bicycle generators and all kinds of cool ideas like a pedel powered wahing machine. I will have to check my library to see if I still have it. Just a thought.

jon-c that’s the one…link is (WWW.e-marine-inc.) they also have 12 volt& 24 volt water heaters.check it outIt may help.Prices not to bad either .I Hope this helps Later y’all

Here’s the link: http://www.e-marine-inc.com/

Resistance heating of any kind on solar is a bad idea. Takes LOTS of electricity. Will drain a battery bank in short order.If you run that battery down too far you will damage it and shorten it’s life. Better to heat water with the sun directly. Camper’s solar showers are one answer, another is do it yourself. http://tinyurl.com/jo9e8 Is just one idea and may be more sophisticated than many desire. Kelly

Np1 thanks for that link.been wanting to build one of those things for 2 years 1 for my pool and 1 for the house very cool Thanks again

As a rule of thumb, everytime time you convert energy into some new form of energy, you lose alot of it. So it is far more efficient to use gas to cook your food than to use gas to run a generator to make electricity to cook your food. It is possible to run refrigerators, washingmachines etc directly off of a slow turning water wheel or off of a gas motor. The electricity is just very convenient and easy to regulate- We do not need it except for things like computers and radios and TV. Electricity is very very high grade power. Using it to cook is like feeding your dogs filet steak- it is nice but unnecessary- and wastefull if you are without.

Clark - While you are absolutely correct in what you say, the prectical matter is that our society has had unlimited electrical energy to perform all tasks for the last 3/4 of a century. As a result, all of the easy to acquire gear that most people can get their hands on is electrically operated.

That having been said, there are more anf there are less intelligent ways to accomodate this issue. As you point out, using solar energy to charge a battery to run an inverter to power an electric hotplate is so incredibly wasteful as to defy all attempts at logic. But using that same electricity to create cold using either a compressor operated refrigerator or a thermoelectric cooler is not nearly as ludicrous. While a solar driven ammonia cycle refrigerator would be a far better use of the raw solar energy, the fact of the matter is that there are virtually no such devices available at all, at any price.

Similarly, it would be possible to retrofit my water well with a wind powered pumping system to feed a large storage tank which I would install in may attic to provide water at pressure, on demand. But is much, much easier to use solar panels or a wind generator to charge deep cycle batteries so that when I need to, I can run the down-hole pump which is currently installed.

While it wold be possible for me to design, have a machine shop fabricate the parts, and then I could assemble a generating unit that would run off of my exercycle, not many folks are up to all of the challenges that that would entail. So we look for store bought solutions to the problems, such as we can find them.

But I think you would agree that for the average person, with average mechanical abilities, and average financial means, many of the highly efficient methods to make the most efficient use of energy are out of their reach. And so we improvise methods the best we can to accomodate many, but not all of our needs, while compromising on cost and complexity.

here, here. Well said Eccles

This may be an option. www.simplepump.com One of our wells is about 275ft and their information says up to 300 feet. It’s not cheap though. Maybe I could sleep with our electrician to get a standby generator cheaper ;)

LauraB - I’ve been looking at that one myself. It would certainly reduce the capacity I would require from my backup power system. But when you look at the cost, fully kitted up and installed by someone competent (I’ve watched them put in my downhole pump, and THEY can do the work out there, with my thanks) the cost ends up more than a grand.

Of course, if TSHTF, I would always have wished I hacked up the green to do the job. So here I sits, considering.

lauraB – at 19:12 “Maybe I could sleep with our electrician to get a standby generator cheaper.”

I plan to buy a spare generator…..

Don’t even suggest such a thing. You might get him all charged up.

You guys are BAAAAADDDDD!!!!!!! :)

Don’t forget to account for losses in;

 - Wiring (5–10%, including wiring out to well pump)
 - Battery Charging (10–20%)

Don’t forget to include;

 - Increased batteries for cloudy periods
 - Reduced solar energy during winter

What part of CT do you live in, so that we can determine the expected solar insolation during each of the seasons?

I did a little search, my area only averages about 10mph year round, not real productive for wind I would think.

Here’s the link incase you want to checkout your area: http://tinyurl.com/r2pum

As I said, I don’t think wind is an option - we have three acres but the way it is laid out it is semi-protected. We only get good wind on certain days. We certainly have many cloudy days as well but less so than wind. If I can run the water once in awhile to fill bathtubs, etc. that would work, but I also think about keeping the freezer cold and you can only cook so many meals in a fireplace. I am going to get concrete numbers on a standby but I think it will break the already near-empty bank account. The simplepump is great, but if I’m already spending a grand for that then I might was well get a gas-powered generator and hope I can supply it once in awhile. Here I sit pondering with no answers either.

LauraB- It sounds like you first need to sit down quietly and go through the exercise of defining exactly what conditions you are actually planning for. If you are planning for a short term gap in utility services and short term supply issues, then a gas genny is probably the thing to do. However, you need to realize that if you are running as much stuff as you just said you wanted to (freezer, microwave, well pump) then you will need a large stockpile of gasoline to keep it running.

As has been mentioned many, many times, once outages become lengthy, and gas shortages become endemic, then the generator will attract undue attention from those who have fallen into scavenging mode, and your genny and gas sounds pretty good to them.

If, on the other hand, you are planning for long term disruptions to the order of things, including loss of utilities and fuel availability for weeks to months to longer time periods, then it would be sensible to consider those things which can operate in the absence of outside supplies. That would mean solar, wind or hand well pump.

And you may need to reconsider the fireplace and look at things like “The Big Green Egg” or other alternative methods of cooking and baking.

So it really all needs to start with you sitting down and being honest with yourself about what you are truly planning for. As with the carpenter, measure twice, cut once. In our case, it would be plan twice, spend once.

Eccles retrurs to his home fortification project. Let’s see, I’ve cut this board three times already and its STILL too short.

The only other thing I will add, is if you do get a generator, they make tri-fuels that run off gas/propane/natural gas. My father has NG at his house but will be buying a tri-fuel incase he loses NG he can use what little gas he can find. They also make conversion, which I’m probably going to get for mine, that will turn a gas into tri-fuel but I would try and buy it as a tri-fuel depending on price, availability, and what access you have to NG & LP.

Eccels - I wish it were that easy to say “this is what I’ll need” because I’m not certain what I’ll need! There are just too many unknowns at this point. Anyhone out there a psychic?

LauraB: So true, what will we actually need the most? I plan to buy a portable generator that will run most of what I want to power. That is really something I need to have for winter storms anyway. Also, thanks to the advice from Professor Eccles, I have the knowledge to wire together some batteries and inverters. Worst case, I will run the genny only a couple of hours a day and try to guard everything from those who have not. I wish there was one really good solution.

Get a diesel genny and make your own biofuel (ka BOOM!)

nopower – at 08:26 - I purchased a tri-fuel Yamaha 2600W from a company here - http://tinyurl.com/pnwn3 - I have no affiliation with this company but feel that I must list their web site because, since they’re so, so good. I’ve read on these pages and elsewhere when purchasing a generator - you truly get what you pay for. I’ve read that the typical “homeowner” model you’ll see on sale all over the place has a usable life of around 250 to 300 hours. I decided to take the plunge and spend more to get more. The company also sells kits to retro-fit *some* mfg. generators, not all, for a complete tri-fuel conversion. My generator weighs about 90 lbs. and has an approximate footprint of 22″ X 18″ X 20″High.

My wife and I have considered much of what has been discussed here. Solar costs as much, if not more, than an excellent generator (5000–7500 watts). What we have decided is this; if power is going to be off intermittently, the easiest solution is 5 or 6 55-gallon drums filled with water. Top them off as power is on and have everyone shower then. Showers when power is down can be done with a garden sprayer and hot water from a wood/coal stove or whatever source.

If we use a generator, it will be enough to run our 3/4 HP well pump. This pulls 32 amps at 230 volts to startup and runs at 6 amps. Nothing else will use the generator while the well is filling our barrels.

Solar is not very effective in NE Pa. We will use a small setup to recharge small batteries only.

If we run out of fuel, or as others have mentioned, feral man is out and about and running a generator is too dangerous, we can use a well bucket. A well bucket is PVC pipe about 6′ long you lower into your well casing and pull water out with. I will post the url with the plans as soon as I find it.

The comments about fuel conservation are very important. I am a data networking engineer and am buying a 2000 watt generator specifically to power my computer system to support working at home. This will use fuel more efficiently than the larger generator. Last winter, we were without power for 9 days due to a terrible ice storm that damaged 50% of the electric lines. Access to fuel for that period was a problem; I had to drive 15 miles to find an open gas station.

If power is down for longer than a week in a big area - like a state, access to water will not be as big a problem as civil disorder, looting and feral man. As result, I suspect the authorities will put manpower to that problem very, very quickly. I would not be suprised to see military engineers supporting electric utilities in keeping the lights on.

Is anyone considering using butane for cooking indoors? The neighbors won’t know and it seems to be an option to solar energy or a generator…how long does one of those cans (4.5 oz?) lasts?

That’s a good question. I too bought cans (size of a typical aerosol can)and haven’t tried one yet. Anyone out there try these?

Does butane put of carbon dioxide?

It does, but apparently not enough to snuff out our oxygen. From an ad: “Small and lightweight, butane stoves are perfect for: Picnics, in place of a Barbeque side burner, Camping, Boating, Hurricane OR Natural disaster relief and all outdoor and indoor activities. This Stove is GREAT because it is Safe for Indoors where Propane is NOT.” There are lots of sites selling them and they can be found in the camping sections each tauting the benefits of use indoors. Nowhere does it say how long each of the cannisters last though. agh

jon c: I stand corrected on my other reply about butane. Read up. http://www.e-lpg.com/lp_gas.asp Kelly

Not solar, so I might be off topic, but while we’re discussing alternate power sources…I haven’t seen this (“freeplay weza”)

http://tinyurl.com/98zrb

mentioned anywhere, foot pumped power source. It looks good for what I would power, and the price is right. Anyone have any experience with it? I’ve seen it on ebay and other sites as well.

Satago, if you’re planning to get one, you could save a couple of bucks by ordering a weza from www.campingsurvival.com. They have the same thing going for $269.

While it looks like a good idea, I can’t imagine what it muct be like to have to pump the thing with your fot for the hours it would take to fully charge the battery.

I got these cute little solar panels from harbour freight. They are about 10×12. They are made to maintain batteries not really “charge” them. I put a old dead car batt on two of them last weekend. This thing was dead, out of water, was going to use it as a core. I filled it up with distilled water. checked it this morning with my load tester. Full charge. Pretty cool for cheap panels.

jon c: I am suprised that it even took a charge. Throw a load on it and see what it is really holding. Kelly

NP1 - it’s possible that if it was sulfated, but not all of it hard sulfate, then by adding the distilled water, assuming the panels’ open circuit voltage is like 15–17 volts, they managed to achieve some conduction and gradually desulfated a portion of the battery volume.

As NP1 says, you ought to check the actual capacity under load. I doubt that it will still be as good as a new one. Or even as a half dead one.

Eccles: yea, I have killed a lot of battieres living off the grid for years. The desulfators ( pulse technology )work well for maintaining a battery but less well when they are discharged repeatedly below 50%. People who want to learn solar living and solar electric should subscribe to Home Power Mag. Kelly

The panels are 5 watts each and are 18X12 1/2″ (I just looked them up) I will be happy if that old batt will run my drill for five minutes or light up my spotlight.

I may try them on some other old batt. I have laying around.

Can anyone recommend a solar AA battery charger? I had bought a couple dozen rechargeable AA batteries (NiMh 2600mAh). Now I’m looking for an inexpensive ($30 to $100) charger instead of a full-blown solar array. The cheaper units seem to charge at about 160 mAh; given the amount of sun we get in MA, it would take almost a week to charge a set of 4 batteries. I think the major brands are icp, isun, and brunton. Anyone have any experience with these? Thanks in advance.

One ting I’ll be checking out is a set of Solar driveway lights that charge a pair of NiCd cells internal to it. they are easily removable. if this works, you get two dual AA chargers per box. I’ll measure the current next time I have some sun and I’m home.

bump

I love that idea!

Hey, if there’s no fuel for cars, can we still use the batteries “for something” (I don’t know what for, I don’t know how)?

I know this is pretty off-topic here, but it’s the (knowledgeable) people I’m interested in. ;)

The above is more a subject for Forum.ResourcesReleasedByDisruption?

Dan in MA – at 21:35 I bought an ISun and it does take a WEEK to charge 4 1700 mAh batteries in optimal conditions.

One possible solution that won’t cost too much is to get one of the folding 5W panels that NorthernTool sells, and use it to power is small AA/AAA charger designed to run from a car cigarette lighter.

Again, I have that equipment on-hand, just haven’t gotten to trying that one out yet.

Eccles at 07:25, would that solve the problem of long charge times? In other words, is the problem with the solar panel capacity of the charger, or with the charging capacity of the charger itself (ie, the charger can only feed so much “juice” so fast)? Would it be possible to jerry-rig a solar battery charger for AA/AAA’s with just a solar panel and some wires, or to hook up a regular AC battery charger to a solar panel without an inverter?

I found a box of 18 solar garden lights at Sams for a hundred bucks. Each has two 450 mAh AA NiCad batteries. Instructions were to charge for three sunny days before using.

I’m testing them now. After the three day charge, two have been lighting the water closet adequately for night visits for three nights without recharging. Six of the LED’s make enough light to find things in a six by ten closet.

While 450 mAh batteries are pretty puny, they may find their way into other gadgets if all else fails.

I wish I’d had these post-Katrina.

And, they’re purty durn good-lookin’…stainless and real glass.

Ok, please help!

I’ve read and read on this solar stuff & on the deep cell batteries stuff & I still don’t know exactly what I need. Glad there’s this ‘dummy’ thread.

We have a generator that we have run our fridge off of in the past but we just blindly plugged an orange extension cord into it, ran it into the house and plugged appliances into it one at a time without any knowledge of what we were really doing.

I want my husband to be able to run a laptop for 6 or more hours, so he’ll be able to continue to work by working from home. I want to be able to run our fridge and our big freezer for a little while once a day to extend the life of our foods, and maybe the big TV (I have wind-up radio w/Short Wave for news, & battery-operated TV that gets 3–4 local channels so the big TV isn’t top priority).

I’ve read about inverters with pure sine (needed for laptop & other sensitive stuff) that are large wattage (is that right or is it volts? It’s been 2 days since I was reading this stuff & I’ve already forgotten) that are in the $300–500 range but maybe a smaller one would work if I need one — I’d want one that had more than one place for an appliance plug to go into. I’ve shopped the net for a mother of a car inverter/recharge thingie with jumper cables (oh I have 2 sets of those too that we keep in our cars), and could get a fairly large wattage with max surge that MIGHT actually run the fridge & freezer — I may have found one that powerful, I think I did.

I’ve read about the Sun Catcher (or maybe it was Sun Mate), which when I searched, I found they have discontinued for folding PowerFilm panels now, so I found resources for them, but apparently with a really sunny day, if I understood right, you can only run a laptop for 2.5 hours off it before having to recharge the folding panels. I’ve seen that on tons of sites — same canned info. I know that you can connect several of the folding panels (but that it’s costly to do so).

I have a several years old run-down car battery that I guess might still hold a charge, & I could buy more, plus I have 2 automobiles whose batteries we could use. Oh, and I have my Kill-A-Watt that I haven’t taken out of the package yet.

I also have a thingie that I plug into my cigarette lighter that will run the laptop and I know it works when the car’s running, I guess it would work with the engine shut off.

I think that’s got it as far as supplies already on hand.

I’ve also read a paragraph about a ‘charge controller’ & reverse draining at night but it was enough to know that I want to avoid reverse draining (but have no idea how) and I might need a charge controller.

Problem is, if I were trapped in a room with this stuff and my getting released depended on my using this stuff to open the door, I’d just die in that room because I don’t know what to do with this stuff—what do you hook up to what, where do you need cables, how do you know how long to draw from your car battery without running it down, can you get more than 2.5 hours of energy from somewhere for a laptop, what plugs or adapters or inverters do I need? What do the plug ends look like? Do I need extension cords & if so, how big and how long can it be before burning up or overloading or whatever it could do?

I feel like a kid with no knowledge of what they’re doing, but enough tools on hand to really create a serious mess and ruin it all if I were to touch anything!!

What do we hook up with what to run a laptop and what do we connect those things with? Pretend my husband is sitting at his laptop….coming out the back is a “poke it in” tip that fits the back of the computer and has a cord with the rectangular flat power box thingie then more cord with a regular ungrounded power plug (like on the end of a lamp) on the other end.

WHAT COMES NEXT—WHAT DOES EACH END OF THE CORD LOOK LIKE? AND WHAT COMES AFTER THAT AND AFTER THAT ALL THE WAY TO THE END-THE ORIGINAL SOURCE OF POWER?

HOW MANY OF ANY OF THIS STUFF DO I NEED?

HOW LONG CAN I RUN IT WITHOUT COMPROMISING ANY OF THE EQUIPMENT THROUGH DRAINING OR SURGES?

JUST WHAT THE HECK DO I DO WITH THIS STUFF & WHAT ELSE DO I NEED TO BUY - BRAND, SIZE, ETC.?

If anyone can help with this there will be a crown in heaven waiting for you!

I’ve been directed to links (dead threads I guess) on fluwikie that I can’t open because it needs a password, or it tell me it’s read only but there’s nothing to read, and I’ve word searched the topic and gotten long lists of threads that contained that word & I’ve been through them all till I’m almost sick of it and a post here and there will touch on what to do, but they all have stopped short of the info I really need all in one place to feel comfortable working with this stuff.

I’m giving my computer over to my husband for him to take to work for the guys at their Help Desk (large insurance firm with inhouse help) to see why it’s running so slowly (done Norton, SpyBot, defragged, cleaned off files but I have a ton of stuff saved on this laptop), we run on DSL but it takes a long time to load pages — sorta like the fluwikie has been lately. :-)

So I won’t be able to answer questions until after 4pm Central time so please don’t forget about me!! The whole point is that I’m trying to make certain that my favorite bread winner can continue to be valuable during an employment crisis…..gotta know how to do it safely!

THANKS, THANKS, THANKS and again THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 08:43 I won’t attempt to answer all of your questions, but I will share what I have discovered and what I plan to do. You really need a pure sine wave inverter and a battery bank to run your TV and computer safely. I know some people will say this is not so, but I have a lot of money invested in both of those items and I prefer to err on the side of safety. I got my inverter here. A battery bank can be just one single battery, or a collection of batteries connected correctly. I’m not going to go into that explanation, but you can research it here. A car battery will not do the job adequately, you need a deep cycle marine battery (or more than one if you so desire).

Your first step is to take the Kill-A-Watt out of the package, read the instructions and then determine how many watts and amps your TV and laptop use while they are working. Don’t forget the DSL modem and any routers you may be using, all those items will have to be powered also.

Now, as for everything else, just use the generator you have and do the extension cord thing, or have an electrician install a transfer panel to feed the generator power into selected circuits in your house.

To recharge your battery bank, buy a good quality battery charger if you don’t have one and provide power to it when you run your generator.

I’ll let others respond to what I have not addressed.

Dan,

I found a reputable AA solar battery charger and added it to my list of suggested electricity preparation items. But what ever one you end up choosing should be based on your needs.

How many batteries do you need to charge, how often, and what city do you live near (to estimate solar energy during winter)?

To determine the above answers, see the energy section of my book on this site. Or if that’s too involved for you, give me simple answers to work with.

I’m-workin-on-it:

Whew! All you need to be taught is everything. That’s like a 100 watt assignment and I’m running on a couple of “D” cells today. We’ll have to take this slowly and in stages, probably over a couple of days to make sure you understand it a chunk at a time. I guess we should start at the begining.

The real problem, as I read what you are saying, is How do I keep my normal life and accessories running on a daily basis in the event of a pandemic disruption to my power?

Well, unless you are prepared to spend alot (and I mean ALOT) of money, you will need to scope your goals down. Refreigerators and freezers are in a whole different class of problem from laptops. Big-screen TVs are probably somewhere in the middle. So we will need to start with having you seperate your REQUIREMENTS (i.e. - those things which you absolutely MUST keep running for health, safety or security reasons) from you DESIREMENTS (i.e. - those things which you would like to have, but can actually keep living if you didn’t have them)

Perhaps it is judgemental of me, but I am currently lumping your freezer, your refrigerator and your large screen TV into the DESIREMENTS column. For requirements I am going to include your husband’s laptop, the modem and router needed to get it connected to the web, some lighting, and the battery TV and radios.

By doing it this way, we can work you up from whatever you have now to wherever it is when you decide the cost and complexity are too great. The generator you now have is problematic for me. While you certainly can use it to great personal advantage in this situation, it is not something you can really count on no matter what. Gasoline supply is not unlimited. it is a machine and can break down. And it can be stolen by someone attracted to its sound in a much quieter world.

So first of all, just let me know you’re on board with me this far, and then we can go step by step over a bunch of days and get you all learned up on what you can do to solave your concerns. Along the way, maybe a bunch of other folks can learn something too.

“All you need to be taught is everything” -I love this big tent.

(Think I’ll have to find someone in my county who I can pay to purchase, install, and plug in solar for me. How embarrasskin’. But, it will be important to be able to run a sump pump quite a few months of the year, and start the oil furnace in the dead of winter -while I have a tank of oil, anyway, at a minimum.)

crfullmoon - You know that there are battery powered sump pumps out there. They use the battery as a backup in case the regular power goes out. This might help make things a little easier. but running a sump pump is a fairly hefty duty job, and will require a whole bunch of panel to make it work.

Thanks so much, Eccles!

It’s been cloudy here, so it took 2 solar lights to get through the night (bathroom nightlights). (The instructions didn’t say to charge for 3 days to start up. Maybe it would’ve been a good idea.)

Do these batteries know when to stop storing energy? The lights that have been charged but not used, is it good or bad to let them charge up some more?

lauraB I have had a solar system for 7 years out near Death Valley now. The well is a 220 volt system and you could not store enough energy into your storage batteries to use it much. The best thing to do if you are worried about water, is to have a standby handpump avaiable to use in case of emergency,,,,,,,,or/and put in an above ground centrifigal water pump (it is 110 volt) which I did,with a 550 gallon storage water tank, and use the 110 volt pump to pump out water out of that. Have been doing that for years. One thing though, I do have 22 solar panels and lots of storage in batteries, and just recently, after having them for 7 years the batteries are getting tired, so instead of putting out 5 grand for more storage batteries, I have decided to take my system down and sell off what I can. The reason for that is I have a hand pump, and the only thing I will miss is ICE and refrigeration, and cooling of the house, but taking all that into consideration, it is better to do without the solar. I did put it in 7 years ago, but now older and wiser will just lean back and take it the easy way.

Thanks to Eccles, Hillbilly Bill, and Will. Will @9:21- I have read your book and it’s great! Ideally, I would like an independent solar setup which would just be used for charging AA batteries (main setup would be generator and deep cycle battery bank). It would need to charge 4 2600mAh AA batteries every 2 days. A 15 watt solar panel with a female car adapter plug would do this (assumes 1000 mA max output for 10 hours), but costs about $150. Now it’s a cost benefit analysis. Eccles @7:25 suggestion of a 5W foldable panel would take about 3 times longer but only costs $40 ($120 total in example). Looks like a better deal if I could “ladder” the usage.

Jane- To get the batteries off to a good start, it is wise to do what the manufacturer recommends. In my case, when I got my solar lights I just put the batteries into a computerized charger which conditioned them and popped them out full in a couple of hours. But I have all of that Poindexter stuff. For your usage, it would be advantageous to charge them up for several days to make sure you have achieved a full charge to begin with.

The reason for this is one of the characteristics of a NiCd battery called memory. Basically. if you only ever partially charge it, and then discharge it, then partially charge it again, it rapidly “forgets” what its original capacity was and can only hold the smaller level of charge that you have been giving it.

That is a premature and wasteful end to an otherwise good battery. Again, with proper equipment, it may be possible to resurect such a cell if the process hasn’t gone on too long, but its not something that is available to you.

It would help the charging process if when you put the light out to charge it, you make sure that the dark solar panel surface is “Flat On” to the sun so it is getting the maximum solar illumination. Since the sun keeps moving, you should go out every couple of hours and change the panel to keep looking directly at the sun. it will make a substantial difference in the amount of charge you can put into the battery.

it IS possible to overcharge and damage a NiCd cell, but if you are charging them in the little solar fixture, and you don’t take them out into space where you have much stronger sun and no night, that should not be a problem.

(If you ARE taking them out into space, then we need to discuss other issues).

If I don’t solve the sump pump problem, and we have long-term power cuts, I’d probably have at least 6 inches of water in the basement; to the level of the walk-out door. (Filled in the wetlands to build my house -silly, old-school, permitting, back before I was born.) Would rather not have that water. The battery-operated ones are for short-term problems (maybe I need one anyway) here in MA, I know we don’t have a lot of Sun in Winter, but, I know how loud generators are and I’m on too well-beaten a path. Do have a nice, south-facing roof.

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 08:43

Hi there, I am not in the same class as Eccles when it comes to explaining Stuff but I will tell you what I did to solve similar problems.

1) I purchased 2 APC Surge Protectors from Costco and plug the TV entertainment stuff into one and all the computer stuff into the other so all equipment is protected during expected power surges during brown outs etc.

2) I purchased 2 1000 watt Modified Sine Wave xantrex power inverter’s (from Canadian tire on sale for 75$ canadian) and pluged one surge protector into each Inverter. I then hooked up a deep cycle battery to each of the inverter’s and ran a test to see that every thing still worked and all of the equipment worked fine. I use a lap top computer and also used a Hitachi Big screen TV in the test. This Inverter is not true sine wave so you may want to contact the manufacturer of your electronic equipment and see if they recomend using the modified sine wave Inverter or a true sine wave Inverter

3) CAUTION use your kill-a-watt meter to make sure all of the equipment pluged into the surge protector is less than 1000 watts total( should be closer to 700 watts to allow for start up surge. Be careful that the positive terminal on the inverter is connected to the positive terminal on the battery and the same for the negative terminal. READ and follow all of the safety instructions that come with the Inverter. SELECT the wire size from the Battery as per the instructions in the manual and do not use a smaller wire as it will heat up and may cause a fire if in doubt call the Manufacturer for recomended wire size. Do not use longer than 5 feet of wire between the battery and the Iverter as per the manual. Also install a fuse as per the manual.

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 08:43

Just read This again and #3 should read as follows:

3) CAUTION use your kill-a-watt meter to make sure all of the equipment pluged into the surge protector is less than 1000 watts total( should be closer to 700 watts to allow for start up surge. Be careful that the positive terminal on the inverter is connected to the positive terminal on the battery and the negative terminal on the inverter is connected to the negative terminal on the battery. READ and follow all of the safety instructions that come with the Inverter. SELECT the wire size from the Battery as per the instructions in the manual and do not use a smaller wire as it will heat up and may cause a fire if in doubt call the Manufacturer for recomended wire size. Do not use longer than 5 feet of wire between the battery and the Iverter as per the manual. Also install a fuse as per the manual.

Crfullmoon- Since the sump pump seems to be your number one issue right now, lets try to see what it will take to make it work out. Do you know what the motor rating for you pump in either HP(horsepower) or watts or amps?

Second, how much run time does it run on a normal day, a bad day and a rain disaster day?

I ask the second question to see how much sored energy it needs. For instance, if it is a heavy motor, but only runs for 10 minutes every third week, that is a very different problem from running continuously during a 5 day storm.

“10 min every third week” - don’t make me roll on the floor laughing in the library - ha.

(We recently had record rainstorm, where I got about 7 inches in 4 days - most of it in the first 48 hours. But, that’s unusual; melting snow and spring rain and just lots of ground water means it runs a lot. I’ll have to see if it says anywhere on it what the motor rating is. (Given that it came with the house 7 years ago, maybe I better buy a back-up with battery and keep it on hand.) It was running for about a minute, every 10 minutes, when things were bad. Still coming on every day now, but not as frequently. Guess I’ll have to go home, observe, and take notes.

Thanks from all of us who missed the Poindexter electronic classes…

Don’t miss my new movie coming to theaters near you soon Revenge of the Poindexters

“Thanks from all of us who missed the Poindexter electronic classes…” I was in them but spent my time daydreaming about Susie Perkins….

That’s the problem with all of us Poindexters. We were all in Electronics class, while Susie Perkins (or reasonable substitute) was hanging out with the BMOC jock types.

Eccles – at 12:31 so true.

(I was the boring square kid, in the library, but, I was more interested in vocabulary than voltage.)

Found a workaround for bad knees and bifocals to read my sump pump; took a photo and put it on my monitor!

H.P. SPL 1/3, R.P.M. 1725, V. 115, HZ. 60, A. 4.5 It’s an Emerson model #S55NXGAG−3886 (I might as well be writing gene cleavage sites down) I’ll have to go over your basic electronic explanttions you’ve made in various threads.

(Oh, and typing was what one took if one couldn’t get good grades, back when I went through school, alas.)

I hope everyone can get their wells pumping, thanks to Eccles. (Maybe having water in this pit in the basement can also be used as a place to keep food cool, or, filtered and disinfected for an emergency water source, though it does dry up eventually, in a drought Summer situation.)

crfullman- Well, Henry Niman may or may not understand what you just entered, but it is fully meaningful to me. This tells me what we will need to keep your pump running. I need to work some numbers, but I should tell you now, that I’d be much, much happier if you had said that it only ran for ten minutes once every three weeks.

(By the way, the worst part about bifocals is when you are working up on a ladder under something where you need to see up and close, and it ain’t a-gonna happen with them glasses).

Wonder what a newer sump pump would do; are they more energy efficient now?

The kind with backup battery -I should also check what’s available off the shelf around here; we may have more choices in stock after that the flood; some who never needed them before may have been asking for them. (I’d be happier if the thing never need to run but every three weeks; however, there are three pipe outfalls into that pit. And they really shouldn’t have built on wetland, like they used to around here.)

(Eccles makes typos too; now I feel better.) :-)

1 horsepower = 735 watts. 1/3 horsepower= 244 watts. To run it continuously, you will need about three times the total wattage in solar panels, plus a lot of battery storage.

Eccles - did you see Gary Near Death (Valley that is) comment at 11:03. Is a hand-pump a possiblility for cranking up a well? We have two wells but they are VERY deep (285ft and 550ft). I would think it would take a lot to get water out of those suckers.

Why can’t someone just wave a magic wand and take energy out of the whole pandemic equation?!

BTW - thanks Gary!

“Why can’t someone just wave a magic wand and take energy out of the whole pandemic equation?! “

When I started addressing this area I realized how inexpensive my other preps had been by comparison.

LauraB- OK. Poof. I have waved my wand and energy is now out of the equation. Welcome to the world of sitting in the dark with no artificial noisemaking machines to disturb you, or heat sources to remove you from the complete ambient environmental experience.

Crfullmoon et al - I know how much energy there is in running a 1/3 horsepower motor. Actually, due to something called power factor, you end up needing to deliver even more watts to the motor, many of which are just wasted. For my calculations about what CR will need, I am assuming a draw of 500VA by the motor. I anticipate about 10% duty cycle under bad weather conditions. I am working out what kind of sources he will need and what he can do to minimize his costs.

I ask that helpful folks just don’t throw numbers or panels at the guy, lets only hand him complete solutons, with cost and rationales for how to do it. Otherwise it just confuses the issue.

Bill- As conversant as I am with energy use, conservation and implementation, it wasn’t until I came face to face with extended total loss of external support that I truly appreciated just how good we have it and just how cheap our energy actually is. We have all been very spoiled. If TSHTF, there are a whole bunch of very spoiled people who will get pulled up very short very fast. As with you, the energy issue (which in my case includes water access) is the hardest and most expensive piece of the planning. I’m not completely there yet.

LauraB- There is a hand operated pump that can be retrofitted to fit in place of the standard well casing cap which allows you to pull water up from as deep as 250–300 feet. What you really need to look at is what the “Static Depth” of the water in your well is. In my case, my electric pump is down at 100 feet, but the static height is well above that. When I looked at the cost for such an installation, it matches approximately the cost of an additional standby generator or a solar system to help run the well if needed.

<The fates roll on the ground laughing hysterically and while pointing at Eccles are unable to regain their composure>

Keep the Fates laughing; maybe they’ll be too busy to “get on with it”.

(Yes, we are very spoiled. Our system/civilization is just a house of cards, such as history has seen often before.)

After giving this some thought, I’m thinking a large storage tank or a second pressure tank for my well system is the way to go. My understanding is that it is better for the pump anyway to run 3 times a day for 5 minutes versus 30 times a day for 30 seconds. Plus from a generator standpoint, I would rather run my generator longer less times a day instead of the constant startup for short periods.

Currently my existing well pump is wired 220v and needs 9amps according to the tag. So if I run it a quarter of an hour a day. I will need to generate approx. 495 watts a day using solar. So a 100 watt panel and 5 hours of sunlight might just do it. So would a ~100AH battery, a large inverter (I could wire the pump for 110v @ 18amps), and 100watt panel get it done or am I missing something??

nopower – at 21:30 How about cloudy days?

the claims that butane and propane is not safe is not true. Remember most parts of europe do cook, heath and produce hot-water with this. And it is commom in cotages to have large propane cans inhouse… As whith all fuels (and specialy with gases) you must know what you are dealing with.. A 6 gallons can of propane is sufficent for coocking and heathing for weeks.. And no problem with Carbon Monocside either. A small gas alarm, and ventilation takes care of the minimal amunts of that. Modern burners have a “pilot flame” that makes sure you dont forget to turn the gas off. And there is a smell added that will make you aware of leaks (like rotten eggs). Consider it for cooking and heating if you dont have any chimney/wood oven!

As a simpler way of cooking is kerosene, its cheap, safe and may also be used for light. Electricity is for light and electronics. Then a small solar cell system is suiffiecent.

Dan in MA; > Ideally, I would like an independent solar setup which would just be used for charging AA batteries (main setup would be generator and deep cycle battery bank). It would need to charge 4 2600mAh AA batteries every 2 days. A 15 watt solar panel with a female car adapter plug would do this (assumes 1000 mA max output for 10 hours), but costs about $150. Now it’s a cost benefit analysis. Eccles @7:25 suggestion of a 5W foldable panel would take about 3 times longer but only costs $40 ($120 total in example). Looks like a better deal if I could “ladder” the usage.

Dan,

Batteries; 4 x 2600maH x 1.5volts = 15.6 watt-hours

In the winter in MA with a 15 watt solar collector tilted at 55 degrees, you will collect about 2.5 sun-hours per day, or about 37 watt-hours per day, minus about 10 watt-hours in losses. So you would be able to charge your 2 batteries and more during that period.

With a 5 watt panel, you would realize about 10 watt-hours per day, enough to charge the two AA batteries in two days.

Do you plan to use batteries for anything else? Flashlights? Radio? LED Lanterns? Walkie talkies?

What is your Energy Needs Plan?

nopower After giving this some thought, I’m thinking a large storage tank or a second pressure tank for my well system is the way to go. My understanding is that it is better for the pump anyway to run 3 times a day for 5 minutes versus 30 times a day for 30 seconds. Plus from a generator standpoint, I would rather run my generator longer less times a day instead of the constant startup for short periods.

Currently my existing well pump is wired 220v and needs 9amps according to the tag. So if I run it a quarter of an hour a day. I will need to generate approx. 495 watts a day using solar. So a 100 watt panel and 5 hours of sunlight might just do it. So would a ~100AH battery, a large inverter (I could wire the pump for 110v @ 18amps), and 100watt panel get it done or am I missing something??

A large storage tank would work. And running pumps longer for shorter timeframes is indeed better.

Yes, a 220v pump drawing 9 amps would require about 500 watt-hours for 15 minutes of operation. Because of losses in charging, conversion, wiring, etc, you will need to generate about 700 watt-hours. Check the solar map referenced in my book to give you the amount of sun-hours per day you can expect in winter. Then multiply that with the wattage of the panel and subtract approximately 40% (configuration dependent) to give you the power you can expect at the outlet.

Will- The one bone that I would like to pick with you is that you always assume a fixed solar panel when evaluating the potential output of a small panel. Especially with one as small as 5 watts, I would personally think that taking 5 minutes once every 2 hours would be a reasonable investment to obtain the equivalent of an additional hour or two of output power. The tabels are a guideline only, not scripture. If you are using a fixed array that has no choice but to stare at a fixed piece of sky, they are probably pretty close on. Once you allow the small panel to point more or less directly at the sun, you get the advantage of eliminating the inverse cosine law reduction in power due to angle of incidence.

Eccles, are we down to picking over the last remaining bones already? :-)

Yes, if people want to move panels throughout the day, they may be able to realize greater levels of energy from their solar panels. However, this assumes that they also have no shading limitations. I would expect that many people in urban/suburban areas will be keeping their solar panels in a window, to reduce theft or otherwise keep from attracting too much attention. This will reduce both the solar insolation impinging on the collector as well as reduce the morning and evening hour charging times. And most houses and apartments don’t necessarily have south facing windows. Even if their neighborhood was predominantly prepared and there was no concern for noticeability, there is the issue of shadows from trees and buildings. If people mount their collector on the roof, they can minimize such shading, but the collector would then likely be fixed.

So I see the solar insolation maps as being a maximum value by which to judge potential energy output in a given area, unless someone knows they are free from shading or noticeability concerns and will regularly move panels to optimum incidence angles throughout each day during a pandemic. Expectation management is important in these situations, so that the culture shock many people will experience does not become amplified by underperformance of their energy preparations.

You are correct. But if folks are running panels through windows, they would do well to remember to remove their window screens from the windows in use as they significantly reduce the insolation available through that window.

I have no argument with what you say. I had liited my thoghts of moving panels to smaller ones. Once you get big enough to kick out some real power, it will essentially be a fixed installation.

My calculations (which I had originally promised anon_22 to post, but she later said they were no longer needed) showed that one could get away with a smaller panel for a given task if it could be pointed at the sun to wihtin about ± 20 degrees. That could be acomplished by strolling out once every 2 hours and rotating the panels.

I must admit that I have a site which permits me to do this with little shading in morning or evening, and also well away from visibility from public areas. Anyone in a position to see my panels and what I’m doing with them will have other issues to deal with. But yu are right, in a suburban setting, this degree of privacy may not be available.

That’s Limited my thoughts

Need more coffee. Must…get…to…coffee..before…too…late.

Thanks again Eccles. We all bow to your greatness. We are not worthy. We are not worthy. ;)

ps I can’t even type without a morning cup of Joe first. You must possess superhuman powers.

HillbillyBill, Sailor & Eccles thanks so much for responding so quickly for my plea for help! I thought I’d be back on the computer yesterday after we picked up my car from the shop (which didn’t happen afterall) and when I thought I’d do computer stuff, we had guests! Friends are wonderful so I had to wait till now to respond to your posts. I’m copying and pasting every word you all say into a doc that I can refer back to, print & highlight & use as my Bible for Solar/Alternative energy!

Eccles– at 10:29 I’m-workin-on-it: Whew! All you need to be taught is everything.

Yep, that about sums it up — can you imagine me in a store trying to buy a cell phone or a DVD player or a solar panel, or inverter with a pushy salesman helping me? I’d end up with the whole store in my car trunk!

You are correct that the laptop is truly the only reason I’m considering ANYthing along the solar line or ‘bank of batteries’ line. It’s worth the investment if it is directly related to keeping hubby employed because he has power at home where others in his department may not be able to so conveniently or for such an extended length of time.

Our generator is retrofitted to run off gas OR propane & we have 2–3 (can’t remember which) 20# propane tanks. But no matter what the fuel, that doesn’t make it quiet! I anticipate it running for maybe a week or so, to keep foods cold until we use the food down & the neighbors would probably not get too aggressive about that. I’m set in other areas like 67 different ways to cook anything from MRE’s to gourmet freeze-dried foods to baking cakes with fresh fruit, but I have no idea how to keep that laptop — and therefore our income — flowing for longer periods of time.

Once the generator runs almost down or has to be shut off, I need a quiet power source (solar?) to be able to run that laptop off of, or I need a battery bank that I can quickly charge from the remaining generator fuel & then run the laptop off of the battery bank. Did I get all that termonogoly right?

If I’m going to need a deep cell marine battery for the laptop, that’s great, I’ll do that, but need to know how to hook up the laptop to it and need to know how to recharge that battery (somehow with the generator I would think, but what cables or ‘wires’ or whatever do I need to have?)

Then I can consider doubling my effort if I haven’t gone completely broke trying to get a refuelable laptop setup, and buying another system to run the ‘desirables’ like the fridge or freezer or big tv or whatever.

Solar has to come into this somehow, but I do have certain limitations to work around. We live in a condo so we’re not supposed to have certain things outside or attach things to buildings etc, but I can guarantee you that won’t stop me from doing what’s necessary, within reason.

For instance, we can’t have children’s toys or pools, etc. out on common ground & it’s ALL common ground on our property. But I bought an Intex 8′ inflatable pool from Target for $49.99 AND it included a free pool cover (keep leaves & mosquitos out I hope) — I shopped WalMart, Sears & Academy Sports & theirs all advertised the pool but did NOT have the cover included-it was extra for $12 I think it was. So if I need large amounts of water I’ll use it and I’m not going to worry the least bit about laying a solar panel on the roof (common area again) if I have to.

But my primary concentration first is to a system that would allow a laptop to run indefinitely for months without interference from neighbors. Who knows, there might be a new ‘business’ there in selling computer time to other people! to keep us ‘employed’!

Anything you can do to help me successfully not blow up my precious little condo would be greatly appreciated!

Rose

Rose- From your answer here, I’m working on something which I hope may solve the problem, but not be too difficult to implement. In order for me to close all of the holes, can you tell me whether you have a window that gets full sun streaming in for several hours in the day?

if you do, then we can do something nice and discrete inyour home, otherwise, it will be a panel outside, which would be subject to theft way too easily.

http://www.amplepower.com/

is a useful site with lots of info. They have a 12V knowledge primer. Henry

Eccles, What I am looking for is some kind of solar system that I can use to charge batteries, run a few lights at night and maybe a laptop or small portable tv. I am useless when it comes to this stuff. I am looking to find a complete kit, solar panel, inverter etc. I saw this product: link this my first try at a link. Does this seem to be a good system?

Eccles – at 07:14

I mounted a ‘cheap’ PV panel onto a wood frame which then fits snug into a south facing window. Being vertically mounted instead of the optimum 45 degrees, behind the pane of glass on the window, I still got the rated 1A max when the sun was bright. (Disclaimer: results may vary :)- This was measured for a short time ‘in line’ with a digital multimeter while charging. I have not really tested how long it takes to charge for how much usage, due to the weather changing every day recently. Yes, it is for my laptop.

I can visualize this being moved from a east facing window to a south facing window to a west facing window, all of the same size :)- when TSHTF and I have time on my hands. This setup should work even in winter.

It’s on a second floor window facing the street. It is not conspicuous. You have to look really hard to see it. I do have shades behind the set up.

worried in NJ – at 11:33

I have the 1200w inverter version of the Xantrex product. It is easy to use and very mobile, though not perfect sinewave, so you should only use 12v for a laptop. The price seems high though. Shop around.

Worried, Anon YYZ - This is in fact either the solution or something very much like the solution I am angling towards for Rose. It has the advantage of being all there in a single box ready to go. As you, I think the price is a little bit high, but not crushingly so.

I agree that one should use the 12V socket for driving the laptop for an additional reason. Using the inverter to convert battery to AC and then the power block to convert back down to DC is very very wasteful of the power stored.

As I mentioned above, I want to write an entire explanatory entry, not just throw product links at Rose, so she understands what the issues are and why.

Eccles: Only when I started to think about alternative energy sources did the logistics and the economics of the situation become clear. Using the Kill-A-Watt meter was an eye-opener, for instance my bread machine uses 505W when the heating element is being powered. Another sneaky problem is devices that continue to draw current while they are “at rest” like DVD players and cable boxes. When power comes so dear you don’t want any “leaks”.

HillBilly Bill- The “leaks” you refer to are called phantom load. It is a fact of modern electronics that they are never truly “off”. Most devices these days are microprocessor based, and the power needed to keep it and its support components running is sometimes not trivial. Sometimes this is necessary. Consider the remote control that you use to turn things on. If the devices were truly “off”, they’de be deaf, dumb and blind, and so you wpuld have to actually haul your B*tt out of your comfy chair and turn it on with a switch that say “CLICK”, just like the old days.

Also, any wall cube power supply that you have plugged in is consuming power even if the device it is supposed to run isn’t connected. How about the ever popular Dust Buster. While I first became interested in this while preparing a class called “Save Energy, Save Money” (Which, by the way, there was insufficient interest 4 semesters running to actually present), it is equally applicable to the situation where power is now a precious commodity which you are trying to conserve to the utmost.

Even the setting you make for screen brightness, hard drive usage and processor speed in your laptop (and even desk top) computer will make a substantial difference in power consumption. In fact, even which artwork you choose for your desktop and for your screen saver make a difference in power consumption.

Here’s an example. let’s say we have a DVD player which, when not running, requires 5 watts of power to keep things awake. Thus, in 24 hours you will have consumed 120 watt hours, or about 3–1/2 kilowatt hours per month. at 12 cents per kilowatt hour, that’s about 40 cents per month added to your bill for that one device. then of course you have the TV and theater amplifier to go with it, which gets us to about $1.25 per month. Add in the microwave oven, the dustbuster, a couple of chargers for Gameboy or MP3 players, your cable or DSL modem, and pretty soon you’re paying $4 - $5 per month for stuff you didn’t even consider. So it is not unusual for a household to pay $100 or more per year for just the phantom loads.

Don’t get me started on the good old fashioned Light Bulb.

Eccles (or anyone else) - This might be slightly off topic, but I have a gas generator and I am thinking about getting a solar generator as well. My question is, when I run my 3500 watt output gas generator, and am only using 2000 watts of power, how can I devert the 1000 watts of power to my solar batteries? BTW, where does that extra 1000 watts go if I don’t use it? Or, is the generator just using less fuel? Thanks.

Rock- The short of it is that the generator is using less fuel. You can use the 1000 watts of available capacity by plugging in a battery charger and feeding it into your solar batteries, through the charge controller.

Please make sure you know what you are doing, otherwise the results will be spectacular one single time, and then you will be very sad.

Eccles, what about the light bulb? Inguiring minds would like to know.

Thanks,

Results of measuring a solar driveway light as a charger:

I took a moment this afternoon and did an impromptu measurement of a solar driveway light which contains 2 450 mah NiCd cells to see just what it can do as a charger. The results were as follows:

Open Circuit Voltage (Full sun, orthogonal)- 4.1 V Short Circuit charging current (Full Sun) - 79.6 ma Short Circuit charging current (Pointed straight up) 61 ma

So, in the parlance that everyone has been using out here, this is a 1/4 to 1/3 watt solar cell. It would require approximately 8–10 hours pointed straight at the sun to fully charge the NiCd cells it comes with, if they were fully discharged. However, they can run about 20 hours on a full charge (done using my microprocessor conditioner/charger).

Therefore, a 12 hour night duty cycle would take about half of the charge from the cells, and the exposure to bright (no clouds) sun mounted on its post for a summer day would just about replenish them, more or less. If pointed directly at the sun, they would charge noticeably faster, or to more capacity on a larger cell.

So, while these aren’t miracle chargers, they are a very cheap way to get a pair of rechargeable cells and a solar charger for not too much money. I think I got mine as a loss leader at a store opening for about $10-$15 per box of two, and I bought 5 boxes.

These cells could just as readily be plopped into a radio or LED flashlight and give you some modest duty. Remember these are not the high capacity NiMH cells that are becoming more common now. Given a 2100 mah NiMH cell, it would take about 30 hours of dead-on full sun to charge a pair of them up. but that’s going from fully discharged. This would work well to top batteries up every few days if you’re not draining them in a single night.

Anonymous- I told you not to get me started on the light bulb. You will regret it. I will begin sounding like Duckie on NCIS.

Eccles – at 13:03

Would one 40w panel be enongh to charge the 1500w unit, or would it be better to purchase additional panels? Remembering I do not understand this stuff, it would seem that the 40w panel would take a long time to charge the unit.

Worried- You are actually asking the wrong question. A glib and uninformed answer would be “Sure. The 40W panel will charge the Xantrex 1500″

But lets try to develop a bit of understanding of what is going on. By reading the spec sheet on the Xantrex 1500, we see that it contains a 60 ampere-hour battery, which corresponds to a capacity to full discharge of 720 watt-hours. Thus if we look at the raw number of 720 divided by 40, we get a minimum discharge time of 18 hours. But actually, during the recharge process there are inefficiencies which lose us about 15 percent of the energy, that means we need a minimum of 20 hours. but that also assumes full output of the panel, which won’t happen unless it is a completely cloudless day and the panel points directly at the sun the whole time, not at a fixed position looking at some piece of the sky where the sun isn’t exactly.

Now lets simplify things back and see what’s going on and what this will do for you. You can think of the Xantrex as containing a large bucket designed to hold electricity. that is the storage battery. It’s capacity measures the quantity of electricity that it can hold. We will work in watt-hours for this explanation. We can work out that the battery (bucket) can hold about 720 watt-hours of electricity when it is full to the top.

The rating of the Xantrex powerpack says it can provide electricity at a rate of 1500 watts. This means that it can drain the bucket in less than half an hour. This would be like using a garden hose to drain the bucket.

The problem comes in when we need to refill the bucket. A 40 watt solar panel is very much like refilling the bucket through a soda straw. Simplistically, we can replace 40 watt-hours per hour at the best possible rate with the panel. Thus, to completely refill the bucket will take days.

What you need to understand is that the size of the panel is not something that needs to be matched to the size of the bucket, but rather to how much of the contents of the bucket you consume every day. it doesn’t matter if you had a bucket 1/2 the size or three times the size, you could still only replenish the electricity at a rate which is deterined by the size of the solar panel, the weather conditions outside, the length of the day, and where the panel is pointing relative to the sun. You should also know that it is a bad idea to run the bucket down below half full as a general rule. A lead-acid battery does not do well when fully discharged, and it will greatly shorten its life. In the case of an automotive battery, as little as a single full discharge may be enough to kill it dead. the AGM battery in the Xantrex is much better suited to this duty, but you should still never plan to use it to below 25% full.

So we really need to understand the power you need to consume, because that is what will determine which panel you need. Let us take as an example a laptop computer which will require about 25 watts when on and running, and about 10 watts when idling. If you work an 8 hour day of full power usage, that will consume 200 watt-hours from your bucket.

but wait! That’s not all! if you are going to be working on-line, then you need to provide power to your communications equipment too. For example, in my own home, I am running a DSL modem which consumes about 12–15 watts, and a residential router which consumes about 10 watts. So there we have another 25 watts which we need to provide, adding up to 400 watt-hours for an 8 hour day.

So in this case, the Xantrex could support your 50 watt load for about 2 working days on a single charge.

But the 40 watt panel could not provide that much power. If you look at worst case in winter, as Will is fond of pointing out, you can count on an equivalent of about 3 hours of full capacity per day from your panel. Thus, you either need to cut your working hours down from 8 to less than 3 per day. Or else you need to upsize your panel quite a bit.

Rather than a 40 watt panel, you would need more like a 150 watt panel.

So it’s either upsize the panel, or don=wnsize and minimize the power demands you are making. If you intend to work from home, you may need to learn a series of new techniques including working less with the laptop and more on paper except for brief sessions when you transfer information and then shut everything down again.

Let me know if I have made things clearer, or just made them less understandable, and then we’ll go from that point forward.

Bump to get this above the Bronco Blitz. i suspect we need to go to chapter 2 of ths thread soon.

Eccles – at 10:35 Rose- From your answer here, I’m working on something which I hope may solve the problem, but not be too difficult to implement. In order for me to close all of the holes, can you tell me whether you have a window that gets full sun streaming in for several hours in the day? If you do, then we can do something nice and discrete inyour home, otherwise, it will be a panel outside, which would be subject to theft way too easily.

Rose says: Hey, We are in the middle unit of a 3 unit condo building, us being single level. I have a window in the kitchen (with screen over half) a window in guest bedroom (with screen over half), a full clear glass panel storm door (with NO screen) which in the Winter and Spring is the favorite cat-sunning spot in the house. Then we have 3 sliding doors on the back, one from bedroom, two from living room. Only late afternoon sun comes in there. We DO have a tall chimney on the back side between the 2 living room sliding doors & could mount something there and NO one would see it — heck the maintenance people don’t even see up there unless I call them to come look at something specific.

We’re surrounded by tall mature trees which we love but we do trim limbs back as needed — the tall trees is one of the biggest selling points in this day and time of scrape, build and plant puny sized trees.

One redeaming thing about our location is that we are located almost like a rural area — even people that we WANT to come here, get lost & have to call for directions again. We’re surrounded by a golf course and although we’ve been here for decades, no one knows we’re here. Our back side of our roof gets the most sun probably and the ‘front’ side of the chimney gets the most as opposed to the back, I think. I can’t explain why but I believe that would be the case, even though it’s opposite of the roof situation — I would say that would be the South-most side. NO part of the chimney can be seen from the front (the part that I think gets most sun, even driving down the little hill to our place.

Hope that helps, off to bed now, back on tomorrow! It’s so wonderful of you folks with so much ‘foreign’ (to me) knowledge that you take the time to help us dummies work these things out. Not only is the information knowledgeable and helps us to physically prepare for ‘any’thing, but it helps us build our confidence that it’s actually possible to understand what you’re saying & there’s hope in us making it work!

‘Nite,

Rose

Rose- A good place to start would be to read through the answer I posted right above here to Worried in NJ. it describes exactly what you are going to have to consider.

From what you describe, it really begins to sound like you are going to need to consider a roof mounted panel arrangement to get enough solar power to do what you need. not cheap.

but read through the stuff up above and then we’ll go on from there.

I saw your post after I put mine up so I’ll read through it in the AM when I’m not brain-dead! Thanks again!

Eccles – at 00:18 --- Just Blitzen along!

Don’t forget that a lot of utility companies offer huge incentives for people to install roof-mount solar arrays. Out here on the Left Coast, PG&E offers ‘up to 70%’ of the cost in credits to the utility bill. And an roof-mounted system can cost up around US$12,000! Big savings if you get them involved…

Oh…if ya want, I’ll close this thread and start part deux…if you’d like, of course! ;-)

So true, Mr. Professor Eccles - at 00:18. ;-) Thread closed due to length…Part Two can be found here.