Forum: Solar and Generators and Alternate Power for Dummies Part 3

The last piece of this thread was getting too long, so I’m opening a new installment. Since there has been confusion about the purpose of the thread, I have changed the name somewhat to reflect its intent better.

nd the link to the Part 2 of the thread that we are continuing from can be found HERE

Eccles: You have stated earlier that storage batteries should not be discharged past 50% capacity. Does it shorten their life if they are discharged a little, charged back up, rinse and repeat over and over? I screwed up the battery in my cell phone doing this a few years ago, but obviously that is a different type of battery.

bump

Just moving some lat threads over to here:

I’m-workin’-on-it – at 14:32

I’m soooo far behind on this thread….but I’ve been trying to learn about deep cycle batteries…so is an AGM (absorbed glass mat) battery OK? I’ve been trying to figure out if I should be more concerned about the solid plate thickness or what…..should we be looking at the ‘stationary’ or ‘forklift’ batteries due to the thickness of the lead plates? One site mentions brands Rolls-Surrette, US Battery and Trojan. I looked at Sears & their site doesn’t tell you anything, same with Academy Sports. Should I just go to a place that sells boats and have them just sell me something & figure it’s gotta be somewhere near what I need?

Whew!

seacoast – at 14:46

Does anyone know what the Amish do to run their houses? I think they use propane lanterns, but that is all I know (and that could be wrong). How do they keep their houses warm in winter?

Seacoast- In my understanding, there are a number of sects among the Amish folk. Each of them has their own particular level of observance. In the most conservative of them, no electrical devices would be used, so they would, I’m sure, use candles and kerosene to light their homes, and fire of some sort to heat it. Whether they only use wood, or can also use kerosene, I am not sure.

Eccles I’m going to do just as you said.12 volt to 12 volt with no conversion for my lighting and some 12 volt fans.Someone had a great idea.use the outside solar lights for light and as battery chargers for my double A batts.I’m still trying to figure out how to keep the fridge& deep freeze up and running without having to store 3,000 gals. of gas for my genee.would running an inverter hooked up to my car for a couple of hours be practical.according to what I can gether I can run a inverter to the car while it is running to supply power to the fridge and deep freeze for an hour or so every couple of hours……Does this sound right.I also heard you can’t charge the batt while you are useing the inverter. HELP!!!!!

Eccles

is Charging 40 amps per hour the same as 450 to 550 watts per hour?

IWOT- I’m not the big battery maven around here, and there are others like Will who have lots more firsthand experience with battery types and brands.

In general, batteries with thicker plates are more rugged in deep discharge. Different battery architectures, such as AGM, make them more capable of supporting deep discharges. A battery which is built and sold for forklift or golf cart applications will be heavier and more expensive than a consumer grade battery.

A marine deep discharge battery is better than a starting battery, which could well fold up after a single very deep discharge. The marine deep discharge batteries sold to consumers are really not that good for heavy use and multiple deep discharges.

On any site of folks who really know about the batteries they sell, you will find a graph for each model of battery showing number of discharge cycles vs depthe of discharge. In such a curve, it shows how many cycles you can get from a battery after how deeply it has been discharged. You can get a good idea from those curves just how rugged the battery will be in the service you intend to put it into.

If Will or someone with more experience in batteries in solar systems comes around, I’m sure they will be happy to share their experiences and opinions with you.

As they used to say in the car ad: Ask the man who owns one.

Here is a curve of discharge depth vs life in cycles fot some batteries.

You can see what impact the depth of discharge does to the number of times the battery can be recharged

Just a note regarding the charging (and discharging) of storage batteries - almost any of the common kinds:

Please be aware that they must be used in a well-ventilated environment, unless you want a hydrogen bomb.

If you are planning to place them indoors (to prevent theft), then I’d suggest placing them in a small room with open windows and a closed, sealed door to the rest of the dwelling. Unfortunately, in some highly populated areas, this will allow the nasty bugs to enter the room through the windows from the outside, so you may want to seal the door to this room. Don’t want those nasty bugs to creep in either.

Mstrbubbie-

First of all, the alternator in your car can only kick out so many watts. With the engine at idle you get so many, and at higher engine RPM, you get more. The problem in using the car to supply heavy power to run things is that if you exceed the power available from the alternator, the battery will provide the remainder of the demand, and you can be discharging (and possibly ruining) your battery even with the engine running.

In much the same way, since there is only so much output from the alternator, the more you are pulling for external loads, the less will go into recharging the on-board battery.

You really need to rethink the mindset that you will run all of that refrigeration equipment no matter what comes, Dagnbit! All of us who have looked at it end up backing way off on our expectations of refrigeration to being able to keep leftovers edible for a day or two, and preserving sensitive medicines.

If TSHTF, you can probably stretch your reefer and freezer out for a week or two this way till you empty them, but it isn’t likely that you can keep them fully up and powered without a substantial solar array or a wind generator dedicated to the task.

Eccles: “If TSHTF, you can probably stretch your reefer and freezer out for a week or two this way till you empty them, but it isn’t likely that you can keep them fully up and powered without a substantial solar array or a wind generator dedicated to the task.”

Agreed.

But I’d be interested in keeping a small freezer up and running for maybe several days, in the event of interruptions of power. I’m assuming that power outages will be sporadic, and not very long-term. If ‘TS Truly HTF’ and there are long-term power outages, I’d have to just give up on any frozen steaks and other goodies (that I could not hurredly devour before they went bad).

With a 60W panel ($300), I might expect to charge and store 250W, or so, into a battery during a sunny SoCal day. This is only about a quarter, or possibly a third, of the capacity of a marine deep-cycle battery. If I discharge this battery by 50% or 67%, I’ll need about two days to recharge the battery using the 60W panel. Discharging the battery by 50% or 67% could give me 500W to 700W, which might run the freezer for about a day - 20 to 28 hours. (Assuming 15% ON time, 120VA for the freezer, and 70% to 75% efficiency of the inverter.)

Obviously, by rotating batteries, I’d need 2 sets of 60W panels and three 85 AH batteries to keep the small freezer going indefinitely. That’s about a $1000 investment.

I think that a more reasonable approach would be to keep one to three marine batteries on a rotating AC trickle charge, use them when the power is out, and then start to recharge them immediately when the power comes back on. This assumes no long-term power outages, and no need to store critical medicines at low temperature. But this could ride out interruptions of several days.

Perhaps one solar panel for other uses, but the use of solar for any perpetual refrigeration is an expensive investment. If you don’t have the money, or if you don’t have to have solar powered refrigeration for an eternity, then AC charging and backup could be a viable alternative.

BakedClam – at 16:12

If you really want to keep your food frozen for as long as possible (notice I didn’t say keep the freezer running), there has been extensive discussions in the wiki about putting the freezer in a heavily insulated enclosure. Insulation material should cost substantially less than solar.

I have 2 “trickle charge” solar panels. One 1.8 watt and one 5 watt. I have one of those portable jump starter battery packs with a cigarette type plug. During hurricanes, I plug my small battery powered TV into it until the storm has passed. I use the trickle chargers on the cars when they won’t be driven for a while to keep the batteries up. The trickle chargers will charge the jump starter, but s-l-o-w-l-y. I realize they aren’t designed for charging. Both chargers have a postive and a negative battery clamp. How can I attach both solar panels to the jump starter at the same time to give a bit more power to charging the jump starter? All positives to positives and negatives to negatives?

(Note: the jump starter is not my main power source…my Honda EU2000i is…all this solar talk got me to wondering what els I could do with what I have on hand.)

Thank you

Great place for flexible solar panles and fold up arrays. Some good info pages also.

http://www.affordable-solar.com/836.html

Eccles is more correct than I thought.

According to my previously posted figures, I thought I’d need 500 to 700 W-h per day from the battery for a small freezer. In fact, it looks like it would need about 725 to 750 W-h per day on average, possibly more, just for the fridge, based on the annual estimated KW-h energy specification - and, even with a reasonably good inverter efficiency of 85% to 90%, this means 800 to 900 W-h per day. This would mean mostly discharging one 85 A-h 12V battery every day - and taking 3 to 4 days to recharge each battery from a 60W panel.

Looks like I would need 3 x 60W panels, and four batteries - about $1300 to $1400 for a solar system. Probably need to stick with a mostly AC charging system.

Extra insulation sounds like a good idea, but I’m not sure it would cut energy consumption in half. I’ll have to search the forum here.

(In my previous post, I should have used W-h, instead if watts, in several places.)

Addendum:

A small waist-high fridge would be a lot easier to run on solar than my example of a small freezer. (I realize I mis-spoke and typed ‘fridge’ earlier.)

A small fridge can use perhaps one third of the energy of a small freezer.

Wally world has the large 12V refers for $74 bucks. wish I could remember the capacity (comes with the AC adapter)

Re: Battery sizing, discharge, types, etc.

An excellent online battery source of information is the Deep Cycle Battery FAQ. If that doesn’t answer your questions, restate them here.

NiCDs have a ‘memory’ issue with recharging before they have completely discharged, but most all other common battery types do not.

Thanks Will, just the answers I needed.

BakedClam – at 23:08 - “Eccles is more correct than I thought.” Yeah, our resident rocket scientist knows his stuff.

One thing to consider is what scenario you are planning for. If you expect intermittent outages, and a return to normal after a month or three, then a less expensive battery might last through. If you are expecting TEOTWAWKI, then buy the SAFT [or other brand] NiCd cells meant for railway service - steel cell cases in wooden insulating frames - almost identical to the original Edison batteries. The cell voltage is lower than lead acid, and you will need about 40% more solar panels to keep them charged because they are not as efficient as lead - acid batteries. BUT, they last almost forever, deep discharges don’t scare them, and they will not self-destruct if deeply discharged and left that way. These batteries are used to supply power for lights and air conditioning in rail coaches, and come in VERY LARGE sizes. There are also NiCd cells specifically made for solar applications. They claim 8,000 charge / discharge cycles (to 15% discharged)for these batteries, which range up to 1110 ampere hour capacity.

The price? The websites I have found don’t say, and I’m afraid to ask. http://tinyurl.com/ghdck

bumped just as it was sinking from sight

We have about 1800 amp hours storeage ( at 20 amp hour discharge rate ) and ours cost about $2300 two years ago. They are “Hup-One” brand. Very heavy duty but not indestructable. Kelly

Justabump

I’m still trying to get my arms around the recharging time needed for these deep cycle batteries. Assume I have a 100 amp-hour battery and it is 50% discharged. Would I need to figure the amount of time needed to recharge it be based using a 10 amp charger be around 5 −6 hours

bump

Montaintop at 20:08

Getting the last five or ten percent of charge into a battery can take a disproportionate amount of time and may not be worth the effort or fuel or noise, depending on your power source, how long [months] you expect to NEED the battery, and your tactical situation. If you are using solar power and a proper charge controller, no worry. If you are burning scarce fuel in a noisy generator, the best idea may be to monitor the charging current, and shut down the generator when the current starts to decline. A lead-acid battery will age more quickly if it is not maintained in a fully charged condition, but your life comes ahead of the battery’s life, right?

The current rating of a charger is the maximum charging current that charger will deliver to a deeply discharged battery. A battery that is nearing full charge will only accept a fraction of that full current value. So, going from 50% charged to 90% charged might take 4 - 4.5 hours. The remainder - going from 90% charged to 100% charged - might take another four hours, and may not be worth trying for. Also, some battery types cannot accept a 10 hour charge rate such as you describe. A 100 Ampere hour gel cell type battery, for example, should not be charged at more than 5 amperes at most.

Probably be a lot of car batteries sitting around with no gas in the tank. Might be a great supply for back up solar applications. Short life span but abundant.

MAV- Problem is that in terms of capacity, only maybe 25–35 AH, and if you use very much of that, the thing will dead in single digits of cycles.

bump

i read on the internet where a guy used an chest type freezer to make a refrig. it worked well becouse when he opened it all the cold air stayed in side and not falling out on to your feet. and he had an externeral therostat that set the temp to the 35 degree f to only run like an normal refrig. (you can normaly reset a thremostat to do that if you take the cover off and see a small screew) and the power usage was less than one tenth that of a normal refrig. he said it did not run very often when in use, ie. alot of action from the kids getting stuff out ect.

Kychas- That has been discussed on this Wiki (and perhaps earlier in this thread). If you would like, I can backtrack the thread and post a link, but from what you say, you pretty much know the gist of what was discussed.

http://www.herpsupplies.com/product.cfm?id=ETC111000

Source for controller you need to do the chest refrigerator.

doing a power bump

I would like to add a comment. It is equally important to equalize your batteries periodically as each cell’s voltage tends to drift over time and this drifting can affect a batteries overall voltage and thus charge acceptance/performance. This procedure helps to gently mix the electrolyte as the heavier acid tends to lay at the bottom of the batter and prematurly corrode the plates at the bottom. I would highly suggest purchasing a hydrometer for measuring the specific gravity of the electrolyte so its easier to determine when an equalization charge should take place. When purchasing a solar regulator, make sure that it can perform an equalization charge (a controlled overcharge which lasts approximately 5 hours and done once a month generally) which is generally 15.5 to 15.9 volts. Make sure windows are open and provide “lots of ventilation” for this procedure and be sure to turn off your inverter if you choose to keep it connected to the bank. Additionally, purchase a good regulator that also performs pulse width modulated charging. It helps to remove any buildup of sulfation which occurs from undercharging or from a battery sitting idle for an extended period of time. Also, solar panels are far more efficient in colder temperatures. Their efficiency really drops when its hot outside. I hope this helps.

Here is a really good beginners article:

http://abcsolar.com/pdf/2003-03-11_500-03-014F.pdf

In the past we have talked about how those in apartments are generally screwed if the grid goes down because of the limitations they face in generating their own power. After all of the research I have done, and now that I’m into the spending phase, I have to admit sometimes I wish my options were more limited. What am I tallking about? I have excellent storage buildings (yes plural) for gasoline, so I feel almost obligated to put a bunch away (100 gallons or so). It would not be uncommon for generators to be running in my community so that is in the plan. I have some appliances I really want to keep running, (i.e. computer, TV, breadmaker), so I’m putting together a battery bank and have purchased a decent inverter. The problem is where to draw the line.

As odd as it seems it would be liberating to be hunkered down in an apartment with a small balcony with two batteries, an inverter/charger, a laptop with internet connection and a nice small TV. A little Honda genset that I could run on the balcony and a few gas cans chained to the railing would round it all out.

Bill:

How difficult do you think it will be to recharge that battery bank with the generator? To me, I would think it would take a long time to fill them back up with the generator. Most of the generators Ive seen dont put out much amperage at 12 volts.

me – at 15:56 Well, I plan to run the generator enough each day to put back what I take out of the battery bank. Therefore, I can’t take a whole lot out of the bank, but need it for backup and running some appliances. For instance, it doesn’t make sense to run a generator for 3 hours to bake a loaf of bread in a bread maker when the appliance really only draws significant power during the last 30 minutes of the cycle. Much better to use the battery bank and inverter for that. Also computer time and TV viewing requires cleaner power than my generator can supply, hence the decent inverter. Both of these activities will be limited unfortunately.

I understand the “goes inta” and “comes outa” equations fully. My blue sky alternative energy bubble was burst a long time ago. Also, I am not planning on TEOTWAWKI, more for rolling blackouts and occassional outages. If the grid is down for very long, I’ll have lots of other problems besides battery voltage.

Hey, I totally understand. Although I dont know how many watts your inverter is rated for, I hope you woudnt mind me suggesting putting a class-T fuse between the battery bank and the inverter on the positive side. (if its a hard wire setup) That DC is an unforgiving monster if something were to go wrong with the inverter. Just putting my 2 cents worth in there.

The inverter has a safety fuse built in. It’s rated for 1500 watts normal load and 4500 surge. It will come in handy for temporary power outages, especially if it is storming. That will keep me from wheeling the genny outside in nasty weather.

Like HBB and others with generators, I think having a battery bank that can be charged while the generator is running for other things (in my case - well pump) is a possible solution. I’m not here to argue that solar or wind is not the better long term solution but it is not an option for some people. I would like to hear from those with experience living off batteries. My questions are:

1. Use the generator 12v output (10 amp on mine) to charge the batteries or buy a sophisticated computer controlled charger? This one:

http://store.solar-electric.com/tc-20-.html for instance will charge three battery banks at a time and is computer controlled.

1. Assuming that the generator runs 2 hours a day, what is the maximum AH we can generate and what is the proper amount of AH to have for our battery bank. Should we have three (or multiple) small banks and charge them seperately or one large bank?
2. I would like to hardwire my batteries now to my “emergency appliances” now. Couldn’t I run them off battery power and use a charger like the one posted above to recharge the batteries from the main utility power? Would this constant draw and recharge severely shorten the life of my batteries?
3. For emergency appliances:

• link (12v stand fans or ceiling fans - mainly for sleeping)
• Maybe a small 12v cooler or mini-fridge (I have a tiny car fridge that draws 50w 12v)
• Laptop that draws 100w 12v while there is still internet (Verizon card built in)
• LED lighting (very small draw)

that almost formatted properly :)

Nopwer at 1800

The factor that keeps the generator running longer is the rate at which the battery cells can accept a charge. This rate is usually expressed as a fraction, for example C/20, where C is the capacity of the cell in ampere hours, and 20 is the charging time. For this example, a 120 ampere hour capacity cell or battery could be charged at a 20 hour rate at a charging current of 6 amperes.

Different construction methods yield different charging characteristics. Gelled electrolyte batteries are the most readily damaged by high charging current. Flooded, vented batteries are the most forgiving, but do require that distilled water be added periodically to maintain electrolyte level. They will also spill sulfuric acid if tipped over, and release significant amounts of potentially explosive hydrogen gas while charging - particularly during an “equalizing charge” - refer to “me at 15:35″ above. [I don’t know what sort of “me” that “me” is. Not a ME me, in any case.]

If you have multiple batteries, I would suggest having a charger for each, sized for the maximum safe rate for that battery.

I just looked at my electric bills. I use between 700 to 1000 Kwh per month. What is that in watts per day?

That figures out to about 30,000 watt hours per day. Call it 6 hours of 10 horsepower generator or 5 gallons of gasoline per day. In not-so-sunny New England, you would need a solar array costing about $50,000.00 to produce that much electricity. That does not include batteries to store the energy.

We all started with our electric bills, and soon realized that we need to figure how to get by with much less electricity if TSHTF.

I think if BF puts the power out, it will be out for along time. Chaos etc. already discussed many times. In that scenario, fuel for gensets won’t last long, freezers will be useless. What is being achieved anyway? You risk being raided to keep some cold preps, to cook, at great cost. I was thinking that through and got solar gear instead and will hook it up if the SHTF. It won’t be for refrigeration tho. We’re partly getting into the convenience of dry and canned food now and it’s OK!

We have a refrigerator that is only one year old and it’s pretty large. Any idea how many watts it uses per day.

More than it’s worth.

A Good info Document About Batteries

I found a pretty good document which answers lots of the questions that have and will come up about the care and feeding and life-cycles of lead-acid/SLA and AGM batteries.

Here’s the Link to the document.

What is the brand and model?

Check the Energy Star refrigerator section to find out how much energy it uses.

EverReady – at 01:44 Your name hardly fits you if you don’t plan to hook up your solar “gear” until it’s really needed. I suggest you give it a test run to make sure you have everything you need and it all works.

Those of us with generators are not planning on running them unil the end of time. We KNOW fuel supplies are limited. We have also determined the possible danger level of running a generator where we live. In my area that threat level is relatively low. We aren’t doing his just to keep beer cold in the fridge, some have medicines that must be kept cold. Believe me, every long-term poster here has been through ALL of the alternatives and has selected what works best for them in their particular situation.

nopower wrote:

> 1. Use the generator 12v output (10 amp on mine) to charge the batteries or buy a sophisticated computer controlled charger? This one:

> http://store.solar-electric.com/tc-20-.html for instance will charge three battery banks at a time and is computer controlled.

I would buy a standard battery charger (with pulse width modulation if you use lead acid batteries). There’s no need for the multiple battery banks, especially for someone who isn’t used to managing battery banks.

> 1. Assuming that the generator runs 2 hours a day, what is the maximum AH we can generate

That depends upon your generator. A 2 kW generator will produce 4 kWh in a two hour run. DOn’t assume, however, that you will have stored up 4 kWh in your batteries, as there are charging and discharging losses.

> and what is the proper amount of AH to have for our battery bank.

What are your absolute minimum energy needs? Create an energy plan first (see my book online here at FluWikie)

> Should we have three (or multiple) small banks and charge them seperately or one large bank?

One large bank, unless there are extenuating circumstances. Trying to manage depth of discharge, equalization, and other factors across multiple battery banks is not worth the multiple headaches.

> 2. I would like to hardwire my batteries now to my “emergency appliances” now. Couldn’t I run them off battery power and use a charger like the one posted above to recharge the batteries from the main utility power? Would this constant draw and recharge severely shorten the life of my batteries?

I would create a subpanel off of your main panel, and put your emergency appliance circuit breakers there. Standard practice for grid-tie systems that don’t plan on running everything in the house on batteries.

> 3. For emergency appliances:

> * (12v stand fans or ceiling fans - mainly for sleeping)

Check out 12v timers so that you can shut them off when it cools off enough (i.e., 11pm, 2am, or whenever). Or better yet, if you have a basement, sleep there.

> * Maybe a small 12v cooler or mini-fridge (I have a tiny car fridge that draws 50w 12v)

Do you really need this? Better to stockpile food that doesn’t require refrigeration.

> * Laptop that draws 100w 12v while there is still internet (Verizon card built in)

That’s a high draw for a laptop. Are you just looking at the maximum power listed on the adapter? My Dell laptop draws 18 watts.

> * LED lighting (very small draw)

Good choice.

If you do without the refrigerator and fans, you can get by with a modest PV solar system. I’d also suggest an AM/FM/SW radio and an LED flashlight, but those can be solar (and/or windup) as well

Just adding a little to Will’s comments- That 50W for the car fridge works out to 1.2 KWH per day, which is a massive amount of power to keep such a small volume marginally cool (those cheap thermoelectric coolers only get down into the mid 40′s on a good day).

A small waist high “dorm” refrigerator will run on about 12–160 watts and can coast for many hours at a time, actually burning less power than the little car cooler you mentioned.

And as Corky and others have discussed on this thread, you can easily modify a small chest freezer to function as an extremely efficient refrigerator for only 100–200WH per day.

And as Hillbilly Bill points out, unless you have medicines which absolutely positively must be stored cold, then it behooves you to plan on how to live without refirgeration for most of the time.

Will – at 07:54 What is the brand and model?

Check the Energy Star refrigerator section to find out how much energy it uses.

Thank you,

Ends up being 617 Kwh/Year

So is that 1690 watts per day?

That’s 1.7 KWH per day. You need to allow a bit more for compressor startup transients, so call it 2 KWH per day. That’s alot of power to generate with solar.

And that’s if you believe the numbers that they publish.

If I had 8 solar panels rated at 200 watts then would I have at least 3200 watts a day?

200 watts x 50% = 100 watts per panel 8 panels x 100 watts = 800 watts per hour 800 watts per hour X 4 hours = 3200 watts?

Watch Dog – at 17:58

Your math seems reasonable, but I would not find the price of 8 x 200W panels reasonable. Just guessing off the top of my head, this would be, what?, $10,000 for the panels?

Don’t forget charging losses and inverter losses. For example, a fridge or freezer may run (let’s say) 10% of the time, but the constant part of the inverter losses drain the batteries 100% of the time. If the constant losses amount to (let’s say) 5% of your normal load, this would be half of the power that you are using for the fridge/freezer. In other words, the total consumption is 150% of what you thought it was.

I suppose that one could use a simple 12V timer of some sort to connect the inverter, if the fridge/freezer was the only load.

How hard would it be to convert my gas generator to run on natural gas? And what are the odds of electricity and natural gas being out at the same time?

Watch Dog- You’re now asking the wrong question. First lets establish what you true requirement is. it sounds like you insist things are going to run your way, despite the fact that it will be expensive and difficult.

If we can start over, what do you really need refrigeration for, and how can we achieve that goal without having to feed power hog home appliances which were never designed to run under the conditions we are postulating.

If we do this up front, we may find a way to give you the results you need, at a much lower cost.

Watch dog -

Not hard at all http://www.propane-generators.com/

BUT - if the power grid is down so is the natural gas system. You might want to consider propane.

Eccles – at 23:18 Watch Dog- You’re now asking the wrong question.

I ask many questions because I like to know all aspects of a situation. I know that in a pandemic I will not try to keep my refrigerator running but I still want know how many watts it takes to run it. This helps me to explain these things to other people.

I have asked several questions and several assumptions have been made about me. I think that it is good to explore ideas and to gain knowledge.

“it sounds like you insist things are going to run your way, despite the fact that it will be expensive and difficult.”

I am the only person I know that is prepping. At some point, people will turn to me for answers. I ask some of these questions because I know someone else will ask me the same question some day. Flu Wiki is prepping me to be a leader and I want to thank everyone who has helped me along the way. Many of you come through like heros with an amazing ammount of information and knowledge like:

Jumping Jack Flash – at 23:27 Watch dog -

Not hard at all http://www.propane-generators.com/

BUT - if the power grid is down so is the natural gas system. You might want to consider propane.

and

Will – at 07:54 What is the brand and model?

Check the Energy Star refrigerator section to find out how much energy it uses.

Thank you again for the quick answers.

Jumping Jack Flash – at 23:27 Watch dog -

BUT - if the power grid is down so is the natural gas system. You might want to consider propane.

I read in one of these threads that the natural gas system is powered by electricity that is generated from natural gas. So that when you lost electricity , you didn’t lose natural gas at the same time. I don’t know if that’s true.

Watch Dog – at 00:46 --- It’s true that when electricity is down, natural gas is still available in homes that have it piped in by the local utility company. We’ve had several power outages, but still have been able to cook with a gas range.

With that being said, I don’t know, if the power is out for an extended period of time…say, 10 days or more, whether natural gas will be available. Too many variables to account for in that case…

When I lived without electricity, the only thing I REALLY missed was ice when it was hot. Any suggestions on how to create just ice? Or is that worse than an entire refrigerator?

Mountainlady- Unfortunately, ice is the single biggest issue. If you can create ice, then you have the entire refrigeration problem solved. Ice is a major energy issue, so creating ice IS the problem.

I was looking at some websites for solar power. We just put up a doublewide in rural NY. To run the electric is going to cost us about $4,500, so we are thinking why not solar power. I looked at some kits at affordable solar and they have 1.3KWH, is that enough to run everything in the house? The well pump, washing machine, dryer, dishwasher etc., because this is not only for TSHTF, but for our recreation. Forgive me if someone has answered this on another thread. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I saw two different systems and one was 12,500 from affordable energy and the other was about 25, 000 at creative technologies. My name did not come up on the post before. It had been coming up automatically. So sorry if these questions are dumb, but I was reading some of the posts and for a non-math person it is a little confusing.

Anna- Whether 1.3 KWh is enough to run everything in the house really depends on how you live. I suspect that it is dreadfully inadequate for the lifestyle you are used to.

To explain what 1.3KWh are, lets first understand that KWh (which means kilowatt hours) is just a measure of the quantity of electricity, just as a gallon of gas or a quart of milk or a pound of flour measures those quantities. In the case of a KWh, that is the amount of electricity that would be consumed by 10 100-watt lightbulbs in an hour. Or 1 100 watt lightbulb running for 10 hours.

To get a feeling for how much electricity that is, lets say we run a large screen TV (300 watts) and a DVD player and a good surround sound audio system (200 watts). 1.3 KWh would run the whole system for about 2–1/2 hours, which might just be enough to watch a movie, as long as it wasn’t one of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. After you watched the movie, you would have to wait until a full sunny day went by before you could do anything else electrical, like turn on a light, or pump water or charge up a cell phone.

In most homes, the power used for lighting alone is several times that 1.3 KWh. Now, there are folks who know how to really make efficient use of their power, and they could stretch that amount of power a whole lot further, but they normally have a more austere lifestyle than many of us, and they have appliances which were designed for, and purchased for such a lifestyle.

I don’t want to scare you, but the fact of the matter is that a solar electric system doesn’t generate nearly as much energy as most of us are used to consuming in a day.

If you would like, I and the other gurus on this thread can step you through figuring out just how much power you use, and what you can do to reduce that usage by a substantial amount. And if you still want to go solar, we can help you understand what you need and how to select the right stuff.

Eccles Thank you so much for the information. It was simple enough for me to understand. I kind of figured that it might not be enough to power normal consumption for most families. I guess we’ll have to hook up to the grid and maybe get a smaller solar system to run the well pump in case utilities go out. In an emergency I could live w/o electric, but running water would be nice . Would you be able to direct me where to find out about a solar back up for a well pump. Thanks.

Anna NY – at 20:45 You have definitely asked the right guy, Eccles will guide you in the right direction.

Eccles – at 06:58

Thank you for your plain speaking answer. :-D

Mountainlady- My pleasure! And we do windshields too, free of charge.

Anna NY – at 20:45

This site may be interesting to you I Have not delt with these people and do not know if their pumps are reliable so you will have to do your own research.

http://www.solar4power.com/solar-power-water-pump.html

Mountainlady, personally, I would make contact with people who have actually installed solar systems and have experience using them. Calculations and opinion are not a substitute for the ‘in’s and outs” of solar, and that lack of experience could injure you. There is something called the NEC, (the national electric code) and good installers use this book to keep the systms safe as do the inspectors who approve them. Remember, solar can still kill you without the proper safety devices. Something that inexperienced gurus have yet to discuss on this forum. They (experienced users and installers) can guide you beyond simple calculations into areas of safety. Be careful and consult an experienced person (maybe even a licensed electrician to help you.

Solarsentry – at 15:24

I know my limitation (not an electrician) so I opt for prepackaged power systems (Xantrex)where charger, battery, inverter are all integrated for small power needs, and then only use low power portable solar panels. If I need more power, I would definitely hire a licensed electrician/solar installer.

What size solar panel can generate enough to give you an unpleasant shock and what size could kill? I understand risks of injury are a function of voltage and amps.

The best way to understand what amount of power you should generate would be to look at the basic needs you have first. Keep in mind that energy efficiency is only one part of the equation; a conservation mindset is the other, and just as important.

I’ve laid out how to determine one’s energy requirements in my book here on this website. If you have any questions, I’ll be happy to answer them.

ANON-YYZ-

Virtually ANY solar system can generate sufficient voltage and power to, kill when it is hooked to an inverter.

Solarsentry – at 15:24 “Something that inexperienced gurus have yet to discuss on this forum.”

So far in this thread, people have just been asking questions to determine their energy needs. Those who post here regularly are very careful about the advice they give, and err on the far side of caution. Anybody who has given bad advice, or advocated unsafe practices, has been stringently chastised. You do several fine people a great disservice by calling them inexperienced gurus.

You know that phrase - I’ve learned enough to be dangerous? Well, that’s me and energy! I had a company come out to get an estimate on a standy-by generator (we can’t afford one right now but I’m trying to see by how much we can’t afford one). I was asking all these questions and the two guys were impressed with my knowledge - said I knew more than average home-owner. But then they started throwing back other very techincal questions to me about our systems and my image was blown! Where’s Eccles when you need him?!

Seriiously, you guys have been a huge help to me and others. Thank you

I’d like to go back to Anna NY – at 20:45 question about just enough of a solar system to run your well pump.///I’ve been following this and the other power type threads for a long time and done quite a bit of research on my own. I’ve drawn some conclusions and would like to know if I’m in the ball park or if I’m missing anything big/obvious. Here is my situation, I’d love any input from those of you wise in the power ways!

• Well depth is 200′*I don’t know any of the power specs for the pump but my husband says that when we run the generator (coleman 5,000watt, 10hp) that it’s all the generator can do to get the pump over the power surge to start.*we have a couple hundred gallons of gas safely stored and it is not uncommon out here for folks to have that so we aren’t standing out./// We live in the country and can run it for a few hours every few nights (as was discussed on previous threads, preferably a dark, foggy night, which isn’t all that uncommon here in Oregon!) to fill up our water stock. This is our main plan for water, the creek being the emergency back up. I would really like to have a second back up system either solar or a second generator. So, my questions are:*Is there a reasonable solar option out there for us? If there is I haven’t been able to find one yet.*any suggestions on generators? The consumer reports ratings said that some coleman generators sometimes fall below the 106V needed and can burn up well pumps. This would not be good! We’ve been using our current generator durring power outages for years now but never for an outage longer than 3–4 days. Am I risking burning up my well pump with this generator?//Ok, I hope I’ve formatted this properly, It’s my first edited post. Thanks all.

 sorry the editing didn’t work, will read up on editing more after I get the kids down tonight.

Exls – at 15:39

“Virtually ANY solar system can generate sufficient voltage and power to, kill when it is hooked to an inverter. “

Point taken. I was referring to the 12v DC only output off the solar panel. The question is how large a solar panel in W or A will hurt or kill before hooking up to any single 12v battery (not a large bank of batteries).

Anon-YYZ-

(Now that I’m back home, I can use my true ID again).

Even 12V only, and even coming straight from the panel, there is still a high potential for injury or damage if not handled safely. Even a panel as small as 5–10 watts has the potential to start fires and cause arc-overs which can cause eye injuries. While 12V DC isnt usually assocuated with electrocution, that does not mean it can be handled unsafely or without adhering to safe wiring practices and without the correct use of protective devices such as fuses.

protective mother – at 17:39

See post at “Sailor – at 20:06 “ They indicate the pump will work at 300 ft. Looks like it might be a viable manual/solar back up. I have not used this equipment so you will have to research it yourself.

Concerning battery safety:

Consider that a Taser stun gun is powered by eight AA batteries. It is capable of generating 50,000V. http://tinyurl.com/lwmd6 Other stun guns use a little 9V (transister-radio-type) battery and claim voltages of well over 100,000V.

It ain’t just the battery…it’s what it’s hooked up to.

Tall - You’re absolutely correct. Anon-YYZ at 18:50 was asking about just the raw output of the panels, which while dangerous is probably not going to kill you by electrocuting you.

It actually doesn’t take much power to damage a person, though, and I can tell you from painful personal experience that even a single “N” battery is enough to knock you on your assets. When I was in college, another engineering student rigged a cigarette lighter with what was essentially a teensy inverter which kicked out several hundred volts, and it was activated when you pressed the lever to light it. It seems he was irate about everyone at the cafeteria table where we all hung out playing with his lighter. It only took a single experience to cure someone of the inclination.

Eccles - I’m reminded of hot-wired car seats. Dang! That’ll cure a guy of “borrowing” a friend’s car.

It is amazing how much “shock” can be stored in a capacitor. In my old broadcast engineering days my rule was to keep one hand in my pocket and make sure my feet weren’t grounded when working near any circuit about which I had doubts. Voltage is just “potential”. If it has no path to travel through your body there is no current (amperage), and great harm is avoided.

Tall- Old HS electronics class trick…charge up a filter cap to 110V, fold the leads over so that they are parallel to the cap body but on opposite sides of the cylinder, then at an appropriate moment toss it to some unsuspecting classmate saying something “Hey, think fast!”

As soon as their hand gripped the cap their arm would spasm and great fun would be had by all as the student howled and the cap went flying.

And that, my dear Hillbilly Bill, is why girls like Susie Perkins ended up with the BMOC and guys like me ended up with pocket protectors.

Diversifying away from electricity and liquid fuel needs is worthwhile. Solar hot water heater, bottled gas cooking, Trangia spirit stove, wood heater, gas and timber barbecues, kerosene and paraffin lights, candles etc are all good additions I now have. I’ll only use solar panels to recharge 2 deep cycle batteries used for computer, music and water pumps for showers and pumping out a grey water tank. We have mountain bikes and are looking froward to getting 25cc engines so we can get around with about 100 litres of stored petrol. Bill, I take your point and will hook up the solar panel soon so I can test it and be sure I’ve got all the parts.

anyone, I read a blurb here stating that surge protecter strip (multiple outlet) thingys are not apporpriate to use with inverters. T/F? Thanks

I am not an electrician. I bought a Kill-A-Watt meter to determine what I can safely plug into my generator. The meter instructions don’t mention “surge” or starting a motor readings so I am unsure whether it is quick enough to give a valid surge reading. I take my freezer and unplug it for a couple of hours to make sure it needs to run when I plug it back in. I plug in the meter and press the amps button. I plug in the freezer. Very quickly and briefly the meter shows 4.2 amps and that reading quickly zooms down to .93 amps and stays steady at that.

I try it on my refrigerator. I briefly see 9.3 amps; it quickly zooms down to 2.6 amps; after about 5 minutes it is at 2.38 amps; over the next half hour it slowly goes down to 2.14 and stays there. If I open the freezer door (on the fridge), the amps jumps to 2.38 after about 10 seconds of open door. If I open the fridge door, the amps jumps from 2.14 to 2.38 almost instantly (must be the light bulb).

Question: Am I getting a good reading of the surge amps?

Tonight I will do the TV and computers. The above does tell me to plug in the fridge first, wait a minute or so and then plug in the freezer. It also tells me if only powering the freezer, I can set my Honda 2000 on economy mode.

Thank you.

Whole Bunches – at 08:24 Yes, you are getting correct readings on the surge to start the compressors. You may also want to take Watt readings to determine what you can run at the same time on your generator.

Protective mother wrote: > Well depth is 200′*I don’t know any of the power specs for the pump but my husband says that when we run the generator (coleman 5,000watt, 10hp) that it’s all the generator can do to get the pump over the power surge to start. I would really like to have a second back up system either solar or a second generator. So, my questions are:*Is there a reasonable solar option out there for us? If there is I haven’t been able to find one yet.*any suggestions on generators? The consumer reports ratings said that some coleman generators sometimes fall below the 106V needed and can burn up well pumps.

Our 340 foot well uses a 5 gallon/min 3/4 hp motor that draws 16 amps after startup (lock rotor amps are 33, which would give a roughly 4000 watt surge). As different motors and wells have different configurations, let’s assume you have a 5000 watt peak draw. You would need batteries to supply the surge and most of the power during operation. If your well pump drew 16 amps at 120v, that would be approx. 2000 Watts. If you wanted an emergency backup, and only needed 3 gallons per person per day and you have 4 people at your home, then you would only have to run it about 5 minutes per day.

   2000W * 5/60 = 167 Watt-hours (at the pump)

Solar Panel

In the winter in Northern Virginia, we receive about 2.5 sun-hours of radiation per day (which means a solar panel tilted south at about 55 degrees will capture about 2.5 times its rated output in Watt-hours). If we assume 10% losses due to AC/DC conversion, 5% wiring losses, and 15% battery charge/discharge losses, which is 30% in losses, then we have;

  Panel minimum rating = (167/2.5) + (167/2.5 *0.30) = 87 watts

If we add an engineering design factor of 1.2, we would estimate needing a 110Watt solar panel. This packaged system should be able to produce the necessary power in the Northern Virginia area. For your area, see a North American solar sun-hour map.

Batteries

To provide a minimum of 167 watt-hours to the pump motor at 4000 watts peak, you would need a battery that could handle high discharge rates, which AGM batteries excel at. A Concorde eXtender battery designed for solar PV applications is usually my first AGM choice, though others are also feasible. A PVX-1080 (which I have a bank of) would appear to suit you quite well, assuming it would have at least 35 AH discharge capacity in a 5 minute duty cycle. This would give you at least 35AH * 12v = 420 Watt-hours, which would carry you through an extra day and a half of dark cloudy weather (medium and light clouds still allow 20%−70% solar energy capture by your panel). A PVX-2120 would give you roughly 3–4 days of dark cloudy weather usage, but weighs 138 lbs and would have to be moved by a handcart.

As I’ve mentioned in my book, “you must realize that even small systems can injure or perhaps kill people if improperly handled. A wrench across both battery terminals can set off a burst of energy from the battery equal to its entire storage capacity. If you are the slightest bit unsure of yourself, ask us, refer to a PV design manual, or consult an electrician.”

Whole Bunches, refrigerator start up current also includes a ‘pull-down’ phase at which the refrigerant is brought up to operational conditions.

Ever Ready said; > Diversifying away from electricity and liquid fuel needs is worthwhile. Solar hot water heater, bottled gas cooking, Trangia spirit stove, wood heater, gas and timber barbecues, kerosene and paraffin lights, candles etc are all good additions

I agree, and would add solar cooking and solar-powered LED lanterns to the list.

Will, I agree with the battery problem, and I’ve learned from my own mistakes and luckily I’m still here to write about it. Even with a “small” solar system, the same safety precautions must be taken as with large systems. DC rated fuses, DC rated breakers, grounding for both the AC and the DC sides of the inverter, wiring requirements (sizing), GFI’s etc, must be employed as well as considering short circuit voltages of panels. (And Will, I keep advising people to put a class T fuse on the positive side of the line between the battery bank and the inverter. If its a hard-wired installation. (Not the kind you plug into a cigarette lighter) My own personal pet peeve)

Electrically speaking, a solar system should be considered more complex than that of a normal AC system in a residence. For one reason is you have some very conductive aluminum sitting on top of you’re roof. And, it is possible, that if your house burns down because of an improperly installed system, your insurance company may not cover your loss.

A good site is this: http://www.ctsolar.com/National%20Electrical%20Code.htm and a good reference is Home Power Magazine and I would certainly read all of John Wiles articles. In my opinion, he is an expert…even guru in the field of solar power. His advice is in keeping with the NEC and is good guidance for those who are doing it themselves. http://www.homepower.com/magazine/staff.cfm

Will, Thanks for the info. I found out more info on our well pump.

We have a Berkley model 4am27, it’s 5hp and 230v.

All the PV systems you mention in your book are 12v. Am I out of luck without going to a big system. We live in the woods in Oregon and PV is not as viable as in other parts of the country.

What about the generator/battery system set up? Would that be more feasible? We have plenty of water storage available so would be able to just fill everything up and only run the gen every few days. This is my last big area of prepping to fill. I have lighting/heat/food/meds…all covered. Just would like some redundancy in the well pump area.

My husband is more handy with this stuff he’s just not as worried about being prepped as I am. At least he’s agreed to the 6mths worth of preps I’ve got stashed away, even if it is somewhat begrudgingly.

by the way, I love your book and printed one of the earlier versions but with 2 kids under 4yrs I get most of my “reading” time done with a hard copy in a room that is away from my computer. Consequently I haven’t made it through your final version yet. I am looking forward to purchasing a few copies for me and my family when it is available.

protective mother – at 16:28 A generator, battery “bank” and an inverter is the route I have chosen for more than one reason. I’m pressed for time right now, but would be glad to describe what I have at a later time. Eccles could also help you decide how long you are going to need to run the generator and how big of a battery bank you are going to need. Don’t despair, this is doable.

protective mother said:I found out more info on our well pump. We have a Berkley model 4am27, it’s 5hp and 230v. All the PV systems you mention in your book are 12v. Am I out of luck without going to a big system. We live in the woods in Oregon and PV is not as viable as in other parts of the country. What about the generator/battery system set up? Would that be more feasible? We have plenty of water storage available so would be able to just fill everything up and only run the gen every few days.

I believe your pump must be 0.5 HP, it was probably hard to see the “.”

A generator/battery setup could certainly work, though you could also get by with just a generator; it depends on what other disaster electrical needs you have. The minimum I’ve always recommended are CFL or LED lanterns, LED flashlights, and an AM/FM/SW radio, all of which can be crank and/or solar (in the summer). If solar is not an option for you due to Oregon winters, then if you have good wind resources and a place to put a wind turbine tower away from trees and buildings that would be the next option to consider.

I’m on another computer, the above post is mine as well.

Solar Sentry said: “a good reference is Home Power Magazine and I would certainly read all of John Wiles articles. In my opinion, he is an expert…even guru in the field of solar power. His advice is in keeping with the NEC and is good guidance for those who are doing it themselves.”

I agree. In my conversations with him, it’s obvious he had to learn the hard way, as he once fried an inverter that didn’t have sufficient lightning protection. One of my bookshelves came crashing down because I had too many copies of Home Power Magazine squeezed onto it.

If you have read my book yet, you’ll see that I firmly state that people who want a medium to large size system should go through an experienced PV system installer.

protective mother – at 16:28 First of all, there are a lot of options, and just because a certain setup works for one person does not mean it is right for you. I chose a generator and a battery bank for a couple of reasons. First, a lot of people in this area have generators for power outages so I will not stand out when I run mine. Secondly, I have multiple safe locations to store gasoline.

I also purchased an inverter and a battery bank so that I can run some low power consumption items without having the generator blasting away. My laptop, DSL modem and wireless router draw little power and my TV, DVR and cable box are not too greedy either. Plus, the inverter I bought produces the clean sine wave power my computer and TV need to operate without damage. A generator can be too spiky for sensitive electronics. One other item, the bread maker only draws significant power during the last 30 minutes of its 3 hour cycle. I see no use to run a generator for 3 hours just to bake a loaf of bread.

My plans are not for the end of the world, or for living permanently off the grid. I expect power outages, but not for extended periods. Although I can store a lot of gas, my supply is not infinite. If the electric grid is down for 3 months or more, then I think we will have a lot of problems and just one of them will be no electricity.

I have not purchased my new generator yet, it is penciled in for this fall. I plan to get a 5000/6500 watt genny. This will run my chest freezer, furnace if needed, the battery charger to refill the battery bank, and a few other appliances. I plan to run the genny twice a day for as little as needed to keep the batteries charged and my ice bottles frozen in the chest freezer.

While we won’t have much, we will have primitive refrigeration, internet access if it is still up, and entertainment and news from the TV for periods of time each day. Also, if needed I can run the furnace of the blowers on my woodstove.

My advice, don’t jump into anything too quickly. If I would have bought the first or even the second setup I thought was best, I would now have something less than what I really need. Plan your energy needs. Find out what you really need to run and what you can do without. Then pick and choosee the items that will work for you. Don’t be afraid to ask questions, there is a lot of help here.

HBB- Thanks for your input. My instinct was to jump and just grab something during the last indonesia outbreak. I made it through that and am now able to take a bit more time and think clearer. Like I said, this is the last “big” thing and I’ve kind of been putting it off. But alas, the time has finally come….take a sip of the RW flu killer…deep breath…remember all the engineering classes you took way back when in college…

My ideal situation would be to run the well pump, a new mac laptop (I’ll get when TSHTF), DSL, small TV, and perhaps the dish ( i don’t know how much the dish would take, we only get 2 channels out here with out the satelite dish and if neither of those are operational we’re out of luck). I’d also like to be able to charge up my battery charger(s) for the LED lanterns and various other battery operated things. I have looked into one of the roll up solar panels that can quick charge my small bateries. Here where I live we can go a week plus without ever seeing more than a 1/2 mile away. It’s happened 2 winters in a row now and the freezing fog accumulates thick enough you’d think it’s snowed! This is one of reasons I am hesitant about solar. Although most of the time we at least have some sun breaks in the overcast! I was only considering one of the prepacked solar systems, plug-n-play, so to speak. But now that doesn’t really seem to be an option for the well pump. Although if I’ve ruled it out prematurely let me know.

Your battery bank sounds appealing. We also would not stand out if we ran a generator. Have lot of places and already do store gas on site. most people out here have a genny and I think I could time running it so as to be hard to track the noise. That would be one good thing about overcast rainy days/nights. How hard are they to maintain? How long do you have to charge them? I realize that there are many factors that go into the length of time to charge but are we talking generally a few hours or 1/2 a day? Or is it like my solar battery chargers, could take up to a week to fully charge “D” batteries in non ideal sun conditions. What all is involved in setting that up? So many questions…Hopefully enough time to figure it all out!

Thanks, I really appreciate everyones input. There are a lot of options out there, sorting out the best one has proved to be a bit bigger project than I first realized!

Protective Mother- Lead-acid batteries have a charging characteristic where you can get a substantial charge into them in a few hours, but to FULLY charge them takes many more hours beyond that. They taper their acceptance of charge down as they fill. Partially charging them and then re-discharging them will shorten their life, but if you view this as a finite problem after which you can dispense with the batteries, then that may be acceptable.

I know some of our off-grid friends may view what I say here in horror, as they spend a great deal of their time protecting and caring for their batteries, but if you don’t view off-grid as a permanent lifestyle, but rather as an emergency contingency, then you can probably get away with some less than ideal battery care.

For example, a properly cared for AGM battery bank, if consistently discharged to the 50% level and then fully recharged can give you a discharge/recharge life of about 1000 cycles. If you don’t fully recharge them and then partially discharge them, that number will decrease, perhaps to as low as 100, depending on how badly you are mistreating them. If you believe that this is a temporary situation, not permanent, in which you will need to get through whatever is coming at us, and then things return to something like normal, then a few hours of recharge every 3rd day, with non-abusive discharge in between will get you about a year of service.

Is this enough? I don’t know. I can tell you that my own planning is based on a finite emergency situation and not converting to an off-grid lifestyle for the rest of my life. As such, I plan to, and understand the consequences of, abusing some of my emergency equipment. Some of my emergency equipment is intended for, and will be considered to be single use and disposable.

Your own mileage may vary.

Protective mom - I’m in a similar boat. Need something to power the well (quite deep) some basic items, heat to take the chill off the house if winter. We are likely going to get a gas powered genny sometime soon. I’m a bit nervous that all the hurricane forecasters are saying the East Coast (I’m in CT) is due for a big hurricane this fall. The only place I could really hide solar panels does not get enough sun light. The place that gets decent light is right on the street - howdy! come on in! I have energy! Like HBB I’m hoping that power outages will be intermitent and we can run a generator for bursts at a time to fill the water tank, chill the freezer, etc. Other neighbors have generators so it is not unusual around here. The spot we would put it is far from the road so a stranger in a car might not hear it. It’s not ideal but to get enough solar energy would require a large investment and its success is uncertain. A standby generator is too costly for our budget.

Protective Mother: Since your question was about a backup system to your existing generator, batteries themselves do not solve your problem, though they are necessary to handle the frequent light loads you mentioned. A backup energy source for you could be another generator, solar (assuming you might not have a week’s worth of batteries in the winter), or wind (similar assumption). You haven’t mentioned micro-hydro potential, so let us know if that is a possibility.

I currently have a battery bank of AGMs that I use during grid outages, which are recharged by my PV array. If the grid were out and a week of clouds was forecast, we would simply go into energy miser mode, as we could easily run our system for a week with judicious use of water (and using non-perishable food). So battery bank sizing plays a significant role in determining how many cloudy days you can continue critical loads. You might consider having a small PV package system as your primary power during spring, summer, and fall, with the generator being the backup during long stretches of cloudy days. If you haven’t seen it already, my book here online discusses sizing of PV arrays and battery banks.

I agree Will, Although as HBB has said, Solar is not for everyone, I think the one reason is that people may not understand the concept of conservation, (load management) meaning not leaving lights, TV, computers on when they arent being used. Solar is all about conservation and balance and to some degree maintainance to insure those batteries have maximum charge acceptance. I have timers on several of my appliances as there is no need to maintain one degree accuracy on lets say a refrigerator. You can let a fridge go for at least 4 hours off and still not have a problem. Solar systems are really all about a battery bank and good quality batteries that can be drained down to 90% depleation and brought back again without damage: Cant do that more than 2 or 3 times with car batteries before they are shot. Personally, if I were thinking about going solar, I would spend the bulk of my research time on understanding batteries. Many people getting into solar for the first time destroy their battery bank not understanding why. I would like to think of solar as more of an art than a science. Anybody can do Ohms law and power triangle calcs till the cows come home, but owning and experiencing a solar system is a whole other thing.

protective mother – at 23:08 Right now my battery bank consists of a grand total of TWO batteries. I do not have them hooked together, I using the “use one-charge one” plan. I more than likely will add more batteries later, but before I do that I need to better understand safety concerns and learn more about battery maintenance. My batteries are not high-tech, they are deep-cycle marine trolling batteries from Walmart. Maybe I am being optomistic, but I am hoping for limited power interruptions. Even if the power is off for a few days, I expect that when it comes back on it will stay on long enough for me to correctly top off my batteries. Like Eccles said, if things are a little worse than that, I plan to carefully abuse the equipment I have to stretch it out as long as possible. Once again, if the infrastructure is so damaged that we are looking at LONG term service interruptions of utilities, this is far and above what I can plan for, and at that point all bets are off.

Heres some interesting battery information:

http://www.solarexpert.com/Pvbatinfo.html

A little more basic solar information:

http://www.rpc.com.au/reindex.html?http://www.rpc.com.au/products/panels/pvmodules/pvmodules.html

One more for the beginners who want a simple, understandable, basic system.

http://www.eline2000.com/fred.htm

Wow, I’m off line for the night and look at all the wonderful info from you all, thanks.

In looking at the links provided above, I still have a question. Our well pump is 230v not 12v, all the systems seem to reference 12v systems. Is it possible to get run our 220v pump off these battery set ups?

protective mother – at 12:28 An inverter will change the 12v power to what you need.

Eccles, I am also looking at a finite situation. I don’t plan on continuing off grid any longer than necessary, at least for the big stuff. If I could make a small solar system work out here I’d love to keep using it for things like laptop battery and smaller battery charging…We do run our electric fence off a solar charger now. It seems to work fine.

Will, I realize that a battery bank is not a solution to a backup system, just got a bit side tracked. I am trying to figure out if I can go with solar or need to get a second generator. But, now am wondering if a battery bank would also be a worthwhile investment.

Mother:

Heres a beginning reference:

http://www.voltageconverters.com/220_volt_power_inverters.html

Will, micro hydro…we do have an irrigation ditch that flows most of the year, its getting cleaned out this month and is probably 2′x2′. Enough to run our irriagtion pump. A few years ago they started to generated electricity from it and now it does dry up at times durring the winter when irrigation is not an issue. I’d have to check with the irrigation district to see if they have a pandemic plan. My guess is that they’d laugh at me! No one around here is talking about a possible pandemic…At least we’re not in the city!

Can I go off topic really quick….I hate to open this up on a different thread, tends to be a hot topic..just looking for a quick answer. Why do you recomend having 100 rounds of ammo for your guns? We have a shotgun and 2 riffles. We only use them on maurading racoons/opossums. he doesn’t hunt anymore. my husband agreed to buy an extra box of ammo for each but in his mind we have enough ammo now to last us a decade at the rate we use it. Should I really push him to get more and if so, on what basis. He already thinks I’m being a bit compulsive about this prep thing!

Thanks guys for the inverter info. Talk about a duh moment. I knew that! I tell you nursing suck more than just milk out of you. I swear I’m loosing brain cells too! Or maybe it’s just the lack of sleep…. I’ll try to climb back on top of things…

Protectivemother- A battery bank is a storage facility for electricity. Whether you generate using a solar array, a generator, micro-hydro or charge it from the mains when the power is on, its use is much the same as a reserve tank of water would be, and that is to allow you some source of supply when the actual generating facility is unavailable.

In the case of wind and solar power, it also permits you to “accumulate” electricity which is produced more gradually by devices like a solar panel such that you can consume it at a rate unavailable directly from the generator. Thus, it is like filling a 5 gallon can with a soda straw for use later by a garden hose.

A battery bank is not, by itself a solution, but merely a component of a system which provides you with the solution to your individual needs.

Protectivemother - On the amo thing (off topic). my personal opinion is that unless you are prepared to engage in active fire fights with all comers, then a modest amount of ammo should suffice.

“tends to be a hot topic” That’s putting it mildly. Actually the mods have asked more than once that this topic not be discussed. It is polarizing to say the least. You need to decide this for yourself. I have more than I want to use and I don’t have a lot.

Back on part 2 of this thread Watch Dog asked: If I buy the 1000 watt honda gen for $700 and $300 of fuel, I can have 225 watts of power per hour (on average) for 10 hours a day, for 85 days straight. All I have to spend on power is $1000 so is there another way to spend it better?

I waited breathlessly for the answer to this question, for this is about how much I can readily spend on energy too, but I don’t think an answer ever came. Anyone care to respond?

MrsB -

Sorry, that seems to have gotten lost in a flurry of traffic.

There are a couple of considerations to this answer. On the most basic level, the answer would be that this is certainly one approach to achieve that goal. Certainly a solar based system could not approach that amount of power for that price of initial investment. If you lived in a windy enough spot, you could get close to that number with a small wind turbine installation, but still not quite for that price.

The two issues that need to be considered are first whether you accept the premise that once you have run for the planned number of hours/days, then you will no longer have a need for the system. It will be our of gas and useless. Second is that you are asking alot of the generator to keep running for those many hours of continuous service. At the least, you would need to stock spare spark plugs and oil, and know how to maintain the generator. 850 hours is alot of time to put on a generator of that size, and it will certainly need preventive maintenance along the way.

So while this appears to be one approach within the cost objective, you need to realize that you are relying on a single machine to keep running without fail, or your are going to be very suddenly out of options.

Solarsentry at 12:47

That website seems to list 220 volt 50 HZ converters. That works in most of the world, but for a North American location, you need 60 HZ.

> Watch Dog asked: If I buy the 1000 watt honda gen for $700 and $300 of fuel, I can have 225 watts of power per hour (on average) for 10 hours a day, for 85 days straight. All I have to spend on power is $1000 so is there another way to spend it better?

I will answer that with a question: What are your emergency energy requirements? What electrical items are truly needed? The next question is; how much power do they draw and how long are they on? The problem must be clearly articulated before we can discuss the solution.

Consider filling out an energy needs spreadsheet per these directions to find out your requirements.

please ignore off topic, didn’t realize mods request. forgive me.

MrsB – at 13:09 If there is a inexpensive, (and I’m not saying $1,000 is inexpensive), and bulletproof way to have alternative energy, we have all missed finding it so far. Each option has its advantages and disadvantages. There was a time I thought I had everything covered for about $600, then Eccles and others introduced me to the real world.

HBB and MRsB-

The truth of the matter is that wahtever approach we take to preserving our technological lifestyle, it is only a temporary extension to get us through to a restoration of service. Whether you adopt a full solar lifestyle as Will and Solarsentry have, or just charge up a battery from the mains to tide you over, there will come a day when you run out of charge, or fuel, or the windmill breaks down, or the natural gas stops, or the batteries need replacing and none are being produced…and on and on.

Unless we are planning on a permanent end to an industrialized culture ans start learning how to make Lindsy-Woolsy from our own sheep and our own flax plants, then we are all planning on having to run for some finite period of time on our own devices. How long that period is, how much energy you plan on having available during that period and how much you wish to spend on it are all items that go into your planning now.

But no system, including a full solar installation is permanent, and without replacement parts being manufactured somewhere, and being brought to you some sort of transportation, all things will eventually stop.

Eccles:Yes, nothing lasts forever. But a well designed solar system will last a long time. The weak link is batteries. But HUPONE or other heavy duty batteries should last 10–12 years if properly cared for. If you can really high roll, buy submarine battery banks. 25 year life span.I know, not very practical, but it is done. Even after the batteries fail I will have electricty in the daytime. Solar panels are good for at least 25 years, possibly much more. Kelly

NP1, Eccles,

I agree; nothing lasts forever. And nothing, including generators, is bulletproof. As NP1 mentioned, solar panels should last at least 25 years under normal use. My AGM batteries are 6 years old and show no signs of age, because I do not discharge them on a regular basis; I instead sell power back to my grid provider, and only use the batteries when the grid goes out (which the inverter automatically recognizes and switches). AGMs are perfect for this approach, and I expect them to last another 8–9 years. They’ve helped me through a number of outages, including a 3 day outage 2 years ago after Hurricane Isabel.

This kind of system is not for everybody, but many people who ask me about it are people who have already toyed with the idea and are ‘on the fence’. The reason also has to do with having insurance against other types of disasters as well, including terrorist attacks on the electrical infrastructure, heavy regional ice storms that take weeks to recover from, etc. For maintenance, I check the battery voltage once a year; that’s it. 365 days a year, the system is quietly operating without intervention, reducing my electric bill to basically the connection fee.

Most people should be able to get by on a very small electrical energy budget during a pandemic with a much smaller array; a couple of CFL lights (or solar LED lanterns), a radio, a couple of flashlights, and perhaps a laptop and router. My measured draw on my laptop (18 Watts) and router (11 Watts and it doesn’t need to be on continuously) are 5 times less than the ratings on their power supplies. I don’t even plan to run my refrigerator, TV, and many other modern conveniences if the grid goes down, as they are not really needed (we’ve stored non-refrigerated food), and I would be able to stretch my battery capacity to over 2 weeks of heavily cloudy weather. Simplifying our lifestyle has turned out to be a blessing, as we spend much more time together as a family; good ‘quality’ time at that. So there are packaged solar PV systems out there for equal to or less than $1000 that will meet the needs stated herein in most parts of the world, and it won’t wear out after a 500–1000 hours of use.

from reading your responses I must not be phrasing my questions well or giving enough background info. My fault, not yours.

OK, I understand that a battery bank is just the “reservoir”. With the generator alone I hadn’t planned on adding a battery bank but am now rethinking that, especially if I can do the “big” charging off the grid while it’s still up then just top it off with the generator. ( after the well pump is started up could you charge the batteries at the same time as the pump is running?).

The batteries are an essential part of a solar panel system. Is it hard or unreasonably dangerous to change the batteries energy supply from solar to generator or grid depending on the circumstances or is it best to leave it connected to only one charging source? With a battery bank do you hook it into your house the same way you do with the generator? We have that all set up, done and inspected, do you tie into that or do something else?

How far away can you reasonably put the solar panels from the batteries? The best place for panels is maybe a couple hundred feet away from the garage, although there is a barn right there. I was looking at the portable xantrex inverter/battery/solar panel set up they had on sale a few months back but didn’t think it had enough umph to run the well pump and didn’t have the time to do the research as I was still knee deep in food/medical prep. but some of ones referenced here look promising.

one question just leads to another and another and another…

> after the well pump is started up could you charge the batteries at the same time as the pump is running?).

Yes.

>Is it hard or unreasonably dangerous to change the batteries energy supply from solar to generator or grid depending on the circumstances or is it best to leave it connected to only one charging source?

A capable inverter sized for you well will take care of multiple sources for you, such as an Outback VFX3648, which can surge to 6000 Watts. The cost, however, is around $1800.

> With a battery bank do you hook it into your house the same way you do with the generator? We have that all set up, done and inspected, do you tie into that or do something else?

You can have a grid-tie/backup system setup, which I have, that is fully integrated into your house wiring. I’ve chosen to pull a number of wiring branches off of my main panel and put them on a subpanel, which makes it easier for a number of reasons we can discuss in another thread. Not knowing exactly how your wiring has been modified makes it difficult to comment on the specifics of your situation. Do you have to throw a main first, before you through another large breaker, or do you have a break-before-make aggregate switch assembly? Or do you have a subpanel?

> How far away can you reasonably put the solar panels from the batteries? The best place for panels is maybe a couple hundred feet away from the garage, although there is a barn right there.

That depends upon the voltage (we run 48 volts) and the size of the wiring you’re willing to go with. You could even leave most of the system in the barn, and just run 120VAC back to the house from the barn. You may want to get someone to come out and give you an estimate, after you determine the minimum loads you will need to run.

> I was looking at the portable xantrex inverter/battery/solar panel set up they had on sale a few months back but didn’t think it had enough umph to run the well pump

Unless it had the ability to surge over 4000 watts (which I seriously doubt), the answer is no.

protective mother – at 16:21 Now I am a little confused. If you have a generator already and have a transfer panel installed and inspected, why do you need another generator? (unless you need a bigger or newer model)

Some answers:

You can charge up your battery bank with the generator once it gets over the hump of the starting surge of your well pump.

You may have misunderstood what Eccles and I were saying about charging up the battery bank. I meant that if the electric grid was still working, just out of service now and then, there would be plenty of time to charge up the batteries to full capacity once the power came back on. If the grid is down altogether, you would have to use the generator to charge up the batteries and they are going to get depleted if you use them (or just let them sit). When you use a generator to do this, you are going to hit a point where it is no longer cost effective to run the generator to “top off” the battteries. This is what Eccles was talking about when he said he would be “mistreating” his batteries in the gamble that he will not need them for a period of years, but hopefully just a few months.

You would need a really large battery bank and inverter to warrant having it hooked into your transfer panel. In my scenario, the battery bank is just going to be used to run some low power items that need clean power.

I hope I haven’t made the waters muddier.

OK, let see. Yes, we currently have a coleman 5000watt genny that we use in power outages. It runs through an EmerGen switch panel not the main panel. My concern is that our generator is older Over 10 years and if it goes out I am SOL. I am in the process of buying some replacement parts and the repair manual to have on hand. But in my reading on generators the coleman doesn’t seem to rate well. I’d like to have a secondary system in place since water is critical. My main concern is being able to keep the well pump going for what I figure is about 20–30 min every 3 days min. our well pumps 12–13 gal/min. Anything gen time after that is bonus. Although I’d really like to get the lap top and some small “c”/”d” size batteries charged for lanterns..flashlights..radios… but i do have the slow solar options for these already.

I hear a child waking up from a nap, got to run, check back when I can. Thanks all.

protective mother, if you have a Coleman that has been used for power outages over the last 10 years, I would say that it a pretty good testament to the quality of the generator. I haven’t read the reviews that you have (indicating the Colemans are not good) but my experience has been that people will often buy an item that is not suitable for the task at hand then complain when the item does perform up to their expectations. Examples would be using the generator for longer periods than it was designed for or perhaps not taking into consideration the total draw and overloading the generator.

For piece of mind, have your Coleman generator checked out by a professional and then use it as you have been for the last 10 years.

BTW, I bought a little Coleman Powermate 3750 (3000 watts continuous) after factoring in the amount of energy I would really need to scrape by and other things like fuel consumption and noise. (I figure a smaller engine will be easier to muffle) I also have ordered a tri fuel adapter that will allow me to plumb the generator into the natural gas line and keep my gasoline as a backup.

Lower cost engines, like Briggs and Stratton and Tecumseh will run about 350–500 hours before they do something ugly, like throwing a rod.Honda is a good intermediate and Onan and Kohler are more pricey and will last longer.

If this is truly a STANDBY generator then perhaps it will do. If you think you really will need it in a pinch, get a better generator. All of the major solar dealers and installers have the same advice:Get a good generator and use it as little as possible.

I have been living off grid with wind, solar and back up generator for 19 years. It is good advice. Kelly

I had a Coleman 4000 watt gen. After 9 years, the starter clutch wore out. During hurricane outages it would be run 12–20 hours per day for up to 10 days in a row. I had power lines going to 3 houses. I probably ran it for longer than designed. What a good gen it was! Anyway, after hurrican Ivan I took it to a authorized Coleman repair shop and said fix the starter and check the whole thing out. They replaced the starter clutch, fuel filter, and generator brushes and said in their opinion it should perform like new. Cost to repair/replace parts was $113. Last year I had the $ so I replaced it with a larger quieter Troy generator and sold the Coleman for $200. As silly as it might seem, I have a Honda 2000 as a backup to the bigger generator. My whole point is, I agree…have it checked out and keep using it…it sounds like you have a good one.

Does anyone have personal experience with low speed Deisel generators, such as Lister or “Listeroid” units? From what I have read, they sound ideal in terms of fuel economy and longevity.

I remember an unusually large number of problems with a batch of Coleman Powermate generators in the 1998 Quebec ice storm. If memory serves me correctly, the flange coupling between the engine and generator would fatigue and fail after less than 100 hours. While this seemed limited to a set number of serial numbers, Coleman received a black-eye over this, and made significant changes to their quality control on generators. I haven’t heard of significant issues since, though they are by no means considered the higher end of reliabililty, exceptions notwithstanding.

Np1 hit the nail on the head concerning differences in longevity between manufacturers; while a generator might seem appealing because it claims a certain power rating at a low price, there is a reason for its low price.

“while a generator might seem appealing because it claims a certain power rating at a low price, there is a reason for its low price”

As Mrs. Eccles says, “You don’t get what you don’t pay for.”

HBB and others, those are all good points and noted. Let me explain my reasoning, not as an argument with your points, but to perhaps explain my decision a bit better. This reasoning is for my situation only and, of course, would not apply for someone who has a real need for electricity for something like keepings meds cool.

I live in the Pacific Northwest where our electricity is almost entirely hydro in origin. Also, our climate is pretty mild with basically a long cool wet season and a short dry warm season. We can usually expect a couple of weeks of really cold weather in the winter and a couple of weeks of really hot weather in the summer. By really hot, I mean in the 80′s.

I am storing enough oil for 6 changes at 50 hour intervals. So, 300 hours at the 4 hours per day that I would expect to run my Coleman comes to 75 days. (hopefully the coupling failure at less than 100 hours has been taken care of)

Given that we have a pretty reliable electric supply, I believe that if I get anywhere near that amount of time on the generator, the S will have truly have HTF. In that case, fuel will likely be far more valuable for things like heating and cooking than for something like electricity. Paying more for a bigger, better generator would be like paying for an expensive anchor that sits in the garage unused.

As you might guess from the above statement, electricity is WAY DOWN on my list of necessities. As soon as the freezer and refrigerator are empty, the need goes down even further.

At some point, I hope to add a bank of deep cycle batteries that I would charge between outages and “boost” a bit with the generator so that I can keep the TV and DVD player going for entertainment and also keep the laptop hooked to the internet. As above, if the outages are prolonged, I would expect the net to be down and the need for entertainment to be minimal as more work will be applied to day to day survival.

AVanarts: I see your point and agree. We all have different situations and different needs. For some, electricity can be considered a luxury, for others a necessity. I think my plan at this point is to try to retain some semblance of normalcy during a moderate SIP. Extreme circumstances are out of my planning range and I hope I won’t have to deal with them.

Just an odd thought. What if we end up SIP in summer? I have a large yard but I’ll be damned if I will spend much of my precious fuel supply to mow the grass. Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part…

Hillbilly Bill: “For some, electricity can be considered a luxury, for others a necessity.” While I understand and take your point in context, I would submit that many people just think that electricity is a luxury.

Try living in you currant house without it for, say, a week. We lived without for a year when we first moved to our 40 acres. Quite enlightening. Gonig to bed early and getting up early is ok in summer; in winter when it is dark at 7pm and is not light enought to work until 7am turns into a real drag week after week.

Year after year we have added more panels, batteries and lights. Now if in mid January I am suffering SAD I can light up my house and I control the power! Kelly

HBB- Mowing is not high on my prioroty list. It takes me about 7 gals. to do a complete mowing of the grounds, but I can do the front lawns on about 2 gals (if I’m slipshod). I suspect that I’ll mow the fronts as long as the neighbors do, and stop when they do, so as not to stand out. Being out mowing also introduces another infection possibility.

I also have identified the tractor and its generator and battery as a potential tertiary source of battery recharge in case it is needed, but talk about advertising the presence of fuel! (It is only a 18 HP garden tractor, but sure makes enough noise). The tractor is one of those things that I consider a prep even though it is not currently planned in as being used.

I also have a snow blower with a 12V headlamp. I don’t know how much power the magneto in the blower engine can deliver, but that would be a desperation backup.

Ya know, if I had that much to mow, I think I’d be stocking some Roundup with my preps. LOL

Eccles, forgive me if this has already been covered.

I would like some advice on what I would need in the way of a solar set-up to run only the pump for a well. We have another source of water, but using the tap would be sooooo much more convenient and less labor-intensive. I know zip about this, any suggestions?

Eccles: Same here, I would keep the grass reasonable right around the house but let the rest of our big yard go. Not sure what I would do at the farm, it has five acres of yard. I can’t see running through that much gas to keep the yard looking decent.

I wish I had the cash for one of those little Honda generators that are miserly on fuel.

I just realized that my above comment was only part joke. Tall grass is a fire hazard and fire is one thing that scares the bejebbers out of me. I can control whether I have food or water and I can at least believe that I can control whether someone takes those things from me. Wildfire, in the country, or a fire burning from house to house in town is something that I can do darn little to control.

MaMa: More than likely Eccles is going to ask you for the particulars of your pump and how often you plan on running it.

AVanarts: Our little town has a volunteer fire dept. I’m guessing not many will be able to show up to battle fires. So, I guess I’ll at least beat back the jungle in a wide circle around the house.

MaMa- Not to be lazy, but there has been an awful lot of discussion on just the question you are asking. What I’d recommend is to take some time and pick through the thread looking for the same question, and the discussions it caused. If you are still in need of additional info after that, I am sure all of us who participate on this thread would be happy to make sure you get the rest of the story, so that you can get running to your satisfaction.

AVanarts- Talk about tall grass being a fire hazard. I didnn’t get to the back couple of acres till mid summer last year, by which time I was mowing stuff that was level with the top of the engine cowling. Some of it got up under the hood, and the next thing I knew, I was mowing with flames coming out of the air inlet slots. It looked kind of like one of those old Ed “Big Daddy” Roth model customized hot rods. Luckily, no real damage to anything important.

Eccles, not lazy at all. I’ll do that as soon as I figure out the particulars of my particular pump:-) Thank-you.

MaMa- I am asuming that what you have is one of those cylindrical down-hole well pumps, for a deep well, not one of the surface mounted pumps for a shallow (less than 25 feet) well. The deep well pumps are a much bigger issue than the shallow well pumps.

Eccles, it would have to be a deep well pump. There aren’t any shallow wells here.

AVanarts- I also am in the pacific NW and from the description of your weather situation we are probably both on the coast side of the mtns. My question for you is about your comment:” I live in the Pacific Northwest where our electricity is almost entirely hydro in origin. -snip- Given that we have a pretty reliable electric supply, I believe that if I get anywhere near that amount of time on the generator, the S will have truly have HTF. “ I appreciate that we derive most of our power from hydro out here but it is my understanding that that doesn’t necessarily equate to reliability. The example being the big power outage a few years ago that took down the power in many adjoining areas back east. That everything is so interconnected that when one area goes down it can easliy cascade to the rest of them. Not to mention just basic repairs, if the linesmen, or hydro plant operators are sick and not working who will keep the power on and flowing? I personally don’t feel any more confident in our hydro based power staying on than in any other regions power staying on. I’m all ears if this is an incorrect set of assumptions. I’d love to feel better about our power supply.

No, that is not incorrect at all. We just haven’t had anything like that happen here yet. If we do, then “The S will truly have hit the fan” so to speak. If Portland has a big ice storm in January and the power company can’t bring in outside help to supplement their reduced work force it would take weeks to get things up and running again. In that case it just “hit the fan” and people will freeze to death. I’m not in Portland, but close, and in that situation I would much rather have fuel for my heaters and lanterns than burn it for electricity.

A likely senario in my neighborhood is for a squirrel to take out a transformer (rodenticide) and leave us in the dark for a while. Right now that takes 2 or 3 hours to have something like that fixed. During a pandemic, hours may become days, and that is what I am planning for.

If you need (want) to run a generator for an extended period of time you must store more fuel than most of us can put away. You just can’t get around the fact that those beasts take a lot of fuel to run for more than a short time.

For a long term solution I believe you should go with solar like Np1, or wind, or small hydro plant (in the country). I just don’t see how it would be practical to rely on a fuel based generator for long term electric needs regardless of the size or quality of the machine.

Remember, these are just my opinions and are probably worth about as much as you paid for them.

AVanarts- I agree about not depending on ANY mechanical contrivance as a sole means of maintaining operation. As a flight instructor of mine said (decades ago)…

There are only two tpyes of engines bolted to airplanes; those that are going to fail, and those that have already failed

Much the same goes for gegerators, or cars or lawnmowers, or anything.

Eccles,

Note to self: get chimney cleaned before the next heating season. I’ll be relying on plain old cord wood.

Melanie- That is probably prudent. I have never read of a single substantiated case of an instantaneous catastrophic failure of a log while in combustion mode. There have been numerous structural failures recorded, but there has not been a single substantiated case of combustion failure.

LOL! Gawd, I love it when there is an engineer in the house.

Translation: logs don’t cause house fires, dirty chimneys do.

Hi guys! I’ve been studying (struggling?) with this massive thread to try to figure out how to survive without all my creature comforts and have a few basic questions. I hope this makes sense cause my head is kinda spinning at this point with amps, volts, MCA’s, etc. Since I live in the “Sunshine” state I have decided to go with a very basic inverter-marine battery-solar regulator-solar panel operation. I am not mechanically/electronically inclined, so simple works best for me!

I just bought a 1500/3000 inverter and a 2000/4000 inverter to use after the next hurricane. I will get a Seavolt group 27 marine battery from West Marine ($67.00 with coupon) and another Kirkland group 27-Fitment Code 14 marine battery from Costco ($68.00) to attach to my inverters. I want to recharge my marine batteries with solar panels, but I’m not sure what size panels to get or what brands are good. I read somewhere that I have to get at least a 15 watt solar panel and found one at Northern Tools for about $100.00, but then I was told by the guy at West Marine that 15 watt solar panels would take forever to recharge the marine batteries. So now I’m not sure what to get. (Meanwhile the guy at Northern Tool keeps insisting that I can only recharge marine batteries with a generator or my car.)

After reading through the threads, I finally decided yesterday that I would have to downplay my energy expectations for the next Event…however long that’s going to last. So I went to Brandsmart yesterday and found a cute mini-fridge about 3.2 cubic ft with icetrays for $90. bucks that only uses 1.1 amps. Not bad. So when I figured the continual watt usage for my critical needs I came up with 378 watts for the mini-fridge, tv, and two small fans. With the laptop running, it jumps to 923 watts and with the coffee-maker it would be using 1278 watts. (Looks like I’ll be buying a much smaller coffemaker.)

Mini-fridge = 132 watts 11′ color tv = 132 watts 2 small fans = 114 watts, laptop= 545 watts coffeemaker = 900

Next I’m picking up an big ole extreme cooler ($35.00) that’s good for keeping drinks iced for 5 days. And am picking up two 5 gallon solar showers that can be stuck outside, plus I gotta get some clothespins. After living two weeks powerless last year after Wilma and six weeks powerless after Andrew…trust me when I say that things have a way of instantly prioritizing themselves. That’s why I’m also seriously considering buying a portable ice-maker because in this heat, ice really does become a necessity. One thing I’ve discovered after hurricanes is that ice becomes the most valuable commodity. And around here it’s always the first thing that disappears before a Major Event. I won’t stand in line for gas, but I have on several occasions stood hours in brutal heat waiting for ice! After Andrew we were HAPPY to pay $10.00 for a small little bag of ice! And living under Martial Law was no picnic either..sorry…I digress.

Basically what I need help in figuring out is what wattage size solar panel(s) to get and some brand recommendations. Also if someone could clue me in as to approx. how long this system would run, I and the rest of my neighborhood would really appreciate it. (Everyone in my neighborhood is keenly watching my great inverter/solar experiment with great interest!) I love this thread….thank you all so much for sharing!

FlaKeys wrote;

> Mini-fridge = 132 watts 11′ color tv = 132 watts 2 small fans = 114 watts, laptop= 545 watts coffeemaker = 900

Watts represents the amount of instantaneous power; Watt-hour is the amount of power over a period of time, which is energy.

A 900 watt coffeemaker on for 15 minutes uses 900 x .25 = 225 watt-hours

My laptop uses 18 watts (even though the adapter can surge to 90 watts) and if I run it for 8 hours; 18 x 8 = 144 watt-hours.

If you recalculate with the above equations (i.e., what do your loads truly draw, and how long will you run them each day), we can help you determine the sizing of your system components.

P.S. If you need the caffeine and are in such a sunny site, consider sun tea. I know it’s not coffee, but such a power requirement can make the difference between getting larger panels or not. And a solar/crank powered radio may get you as far as a TV with needing energy from your small system. Cut corners wherever you can if you want to stay small and inexpensive.

Don’t use electric for coffee, save your watts! With a Melitta filter holder and a box of filters you can make superior coffee and keep it in a thermos. Heat the water on your propane/butane stove.

errata: … as far as a TV WITHOUT needing …

Let’s look at your laptop for starters.

If you need 144 Watt-hours per day, how much solar panel will you need?

If you are in the Florida Keys, your minimum solar insolation (energy) in the winter time is equivalent to about 4 hours of ‘perfect’ sunlight per day. So a 40 watt panel would generate about 160 Watt-hours per day, which would seem to cover your needs. However, there are energy losses in wiring, battery charging/discharging, inverting from DC to AC, and voltage mismatches between the battery and panel. Without knowing the specifics of a particular configuration, I normally estimate a 40% extra power sizing design factor, to ensure adequate operational margins.

So 144 watt-hours times 1.4 = approx. 200 watt-hours

A 50 watt PV panel should be able to power your laptop for 8 hours per day in the depths of winter in your area if you utilize a battery charging component, and convert DC energy to AC with an inverter (which is converted back to DC with an adapter).

If you choose to directly power your laptop with a solar panel (with a proper adapter) then the 40% loss design factor would drop down to about 5%, which means you could use a 40 watt panel.

So to answer your question, a 15 watt panel would not suffice for the electrical demands you have denoted.

Will,

Thanks for staying with this topic and keeping the electricity crowd informed. Me, I’ll be using the basic survival skills I learned as a back country camper. Six weeks off the grid? No problem.

Melanie,

Just came back from camping the last two days (testing out many of the preps the fun way); primitive camping ensures that one cannot ‘cheat’ on their prep familiarization trialing. We took notes about that which worked, and that which needed enhancement. Sanitation was an area (including dishwashing) that had the most enhancement notes.

I highly encourage people to test some of their preps by camping out, realizing that some measures would be suitable (power solutions, for example).

http://tinyurl.com/g6m5g

This is an interesting site that I stumbled across. It shows the sites of various solar and wind installations in the Northwest. Most that I have clicked on include a graph that will show how much energy the installation has produced that day, or it can be changed to week, month, etc. It also shows how much it is producing at that moment.

Have fun.

Will, sorry it took me so long to get back you…spent all evening trying to convince Grandma that she should make do without the coffee-maker. She is adamant, she will give up four hours of TV time, but she will not give up her fresh brewed coffee. It appears I’ll have to buy a small 4 cup Mr. Coffee-Maker.

Okay, per your instructions here are the newly revised and squeezed figures for watt-hours: Mini-fridge/freezer = 132 watts x 24 hours = 3,168 w-h 11′ color tv = 132 watts x 4 hours = 528 w-h coffeemaker = 600 watts x .25 = 150 w-h laptop= 393 watts x 2 hours = 786 w-h Grand Total is 4,632 w-hw

I am sooo up a tree! Oh no, I don’t like the figure that I just came up with…now what do I do? Maybe I should charge up the marine batteries with my car?

FlaKeys - I’ll ditto Melanie – at 19:40 - “Don’t use electric for coffee, save your watts! With a Melitta filter holder and a box of filters you can make superior coffee and keep it in a thermos. Heat the water on your propane/butane stove.”

If it HAS to be fresh brewed, keep hot water (from the camp stove) in the thermos and stock up on coffee singles (kinda like tea bags). Singles have been my salvation when backpacking. More recently I found a MSR coffee filter in the camping section of an sporting goods store. It fits into the top of a travel mug. Fill the filter with ground coffee, place filter in mug, slowly pour water over the coffee, allow to seep for a few minutes. Drink coffee. Wash filter for next use.

Post-Katrina I discovered that my 300W inverter would run my KitchenAid A-9 coffee grinder…and life became bearable again :-) My name is Tall. I’m a coffeeholic.

Bump - so that ‘Closed BronoBill’ won’t own the ‘Last 50′ list

LOL Tall in MS!

bump

FlaKeys-

You need to rethink your priorities again. it is unfortunate that you have settled on the two hardest things for an improptu or simplistic solar (or any) energy system to support, i.e. heating elements and refrigeration, as your primary energy consumers.

You need to think EMERGENCY CONDITIONS. In the short term, you may be able to pull things off for a few days if you have enough battery power, but in the long term, the only way you can supply the amount of power you are talking about is a really major (expensive) solar system that is too big to be other than professionally installed. it would need about 1000 watts of panels.

If you look at your list of requirements, you show nearly 3200 watt-hours per day out of 4600 as being consumed by refrigeration. Lets just address that one issue. Unless you have medications that require around-the-clock refrigeration, then you will need to change how you view your relationship with some of these appliances. You also will need to differentiate between a short-term emergency such as a hurricane vs a long term situation such as panflu.

In a hurricane situation, if you absolutely, positively require a refrigerator, then my personal choice would be to have a propane powered refrigerator. (In such a unit, a propane flame drives the refrigeration cycle; no electricity is generated and no noise is made) Such a refrigerator can run on a few pounds of propane per day, and a barbecue propane tank can run things for a week or more.

In a long-term TSHTF and no supplies are coming situation, then you will need to find some lifestyle that can do without the refrigeration except for small amounts, like to cool some drinks off for personal comfort. You are NOT going to be manufacturing massive amounts of ice to use or resell. Not without a massive solar array or a wind generator.

It is also foolish to attempt to use solar power to brew coffee. I would personally suggest that you buy one of those little butane stove burners for $30 and a case of canned propane for $40 and then you can have coffee for months. You only need to stock as much fuel as you have stocked coffee. After that, it doesn’t matter.

The TV is needed primarily for informational purposes, and so you don’t need an 11″ set consuming all that much power. A small battery set which can run for days on some “AA” rechargeables with a small solar charger will get you to the other side of an emergency. If you are looking for longer term TSHTF situations, then watching TV will be the very least of your concerns.

I think you have overstated the power needs of your laptop (as Will has pointed out). I think you will find that if you set the laptop for maximum economy operation, you will be able to power it with perhaps 45–60 watts of panel total.

FlaKeys - I TRUE coffeeholic doesnt’t care if its fresh roasted beans or brewed or pressed or whatever. We real addicts just need our fix. The easiest way to that is instant coffee. You can heat the water any way you want to. Put it in a pop bottle and leave it in the sun. Use a solar shower. Heat it over a campfire. I’ve even used cold water. My name is Gary. I’m a coffeeholic too.

Has anybody experimented with brewing coffee in a glass container set out in the sun (as you do for sun tea)?

Us good ‘ole boys just put a big pinch of coffee grounds ‘tween the cheek and gum. I don’t see what all this fuss is about.

Basically what I had in mind was running the mini-fridge, tv, and laptop off of the inverter and 27 series marine battery and was wondering how many days that would last. Meanwhile, I was hoping to recharge the extra marine battery with a solar panel(s) and then switching it out with the used up battery.

I’ve talked with several boat captains and they said it’s totally do-able, but they weren’t able to say what size solar panel was necessary to recharge the marine battery. So I’m just trying to determine the size solar panel to get to recharge one or two marine batteries. And need to figure out how long it would take for the marine battery to recharge using the solar panel(s), so I can determine how many batteries to get.

I realize that in a long-term panflu scenario all bets are off the table. In that type of scenario, the most critical item would be my laptop. Thank you all for your help, we truly appreciate it.

FlaKeys,

Sorry if this has already bee addressed as I’m just jumping into the end of a long discussion. Concerning the refrigerator, I noticed that it was listed as 132 watts 24 hours a day. Most items are listed by their maximum draw, and since a fridge is only running when it needs to cool the compartment it should be running far less than 24 hours a day. If you really need to refrigerate something in an outage (such as meds), I’d suggest doing this to estimate its minimum power consumption:

1) With the exception of whatever space is needed for the meds, fill the fridge with something - even if it is only closed empty tupperware containers. Opening the fridge lets a lot of cold air out which makes for more cooling work, so minimizing the amount of free air space in the fridge minimizes the loss from each door opening.

2) Once the fridge is filled and cold (shown by the cooling mechanism having turned off), plug it into something like a Kill-A-Watt monitor that can show you either the instantaneous or cumulative power usage. Set it on cumulative and use the fridge like you would during an outage. Let two or three days go by and the monitor should give you a good indication of the amount of power it would consume in “battle conditions.”

If you measure this, let us know what its real daily power consumption is!

FlaKeys-

A quick way to get an “order of magnitude” number for how long it will take to recharge your battery, first divide the number of watt-hours per day consumed by the power output of the panel. this will give an unrealistically optimistic number for recharge time.

So from above, lets say you are consuming 4500 watt-hours per day and wish to recharge the batteries using a 15 watt panel. That would give you a number of 300 hours to recharge. Since in Florida you can get an equivalent full output of 4 hours per day, that would take you about 75 sunny days. Except there are charging efficiency consideration. Make that more like 100 days.

In other words, to recoup the energy spent in one day, using a 15 watt panel, you would need to recharge for the entire rest of the summer.

If you went bigger and used a 60 watt panel, that would only take you about a month of charging. So 600 watts of panel would only take you about 3 days to recharge from a single day of usage from the numbers above.

I’m not trying to be a wise-guy, I’m just trying to show you how you need to adjust your expectations.

(And Will and SolarSentry, I am fully aware that this is not the formally correct calculation. I’m just trying to teach something here).

FlaKeys:

See what Eccles wrote. I’ll take a cut at revising your load estimate;

>Mini-fridge/freezer = 132 watts x 24 hours = 3,168 w-h 11′ color tv = 132 watts x 4 hours = 528 w-h coffeemaker = 600 watts x .25 = 150 w-h laptop= 393 watts x 2 hours = 786 w-h Grand Total is 4,632 w-hw

• Run your 20 Watt laptop for 2 hours: 20 x 2 = 40 Wh
• Instead of TV, use a solar/crank radio - no need for external power input
• Get a propane powered mini-fridge - no need for electrical power
• Include at least one solar/crank rechargeable LED flashlight and/or lantern - no need for external power input.

Your small solar system loads come to 40 Watt-hours, doable with a 15 watt panel. We Americans are used to endless amounts of cheap energy; those days are coming to an end anyway.

FlaKeys,

I’m going to use some diagrams to help describe the answer to your battery questions. Since you are talking about swapping batteries, you are thinking along the lines of having two separate “chains” of devices such as this:

solar panels → charge controller → battery being charged

battery being used → inverter → household devices

While this would work, it isn’t the usual way of connecting everything together. The usual “chain” of devices has everything connected together like this:

solar panels → charge controller → batteries → inverter → household devices

In this setup, if the panels are producing more than your household devices are using, the excess is used to charge the batteries (if they aren’t already fully charged, that is). If the household devices are using more power than the panels are producing, the extra power is taken from the batteries. It is actually better for the batteries, and is less work for you, to keep them connected in one long chain instead of swapping batteries back and forth.

Now, the issue of how many panels to get and how many batteries you need is one that confuses many people. The easiest way of relating this to something that people really “get” is to think of it in terms of an hourly job, a pocket holding cash, and daily expenses. Lets first consider a hypothetical person that (using made-up round numbers and ignoring things like taxes for simplicity) spends exactly $100 each and every day. Lets say this person can only work five hours a day and works every single day of the year, so how much does the person have to make per hour to come out even? $20. If this person is paid by the hour in cash, what is the maximum number of dollars that can ever be in the pocket? $100. How much will be there when the person goes to work the next day? Nothing, as the full $100 was spent on the daily expenses. This is the simple case: $100 in each day, $100 out each day, the maximum amount in the pocket is $100. This is equivalent to someone having exactly enough solar panels to meet their daily needs and have enough battery space (the pocket) to hold one full day’s needs.

Now, of course, people like to take days off. How much does the person have to make per hour (still working only 5 hours per day) to afford to take every weekend off? The person still spends $700 per week but now only has 25 work hours, so this person has to now make $28 per hour to break even at the end of the week. Each work day, this person makes $140 but spends $100, so the excess $40 builds up in the pocket so that, at the end of work on Friday, he has $300 to pay the bills until work starts on the following Monday. Ok, now lets equate the “weekends off” to solar power. Even in the Sunshine State, you don’t get sunshine 365 days a year so the amount of solar power you produce on a sunny day has to exceed what you use on an average day so that you build up an excess to get you through the “weekends off” (i.e. the cloudy days). Just like the amount per hour that this hypothetical person would have to earn depends upon how many days of vacation he wants each year, the amount of solar power you’ll have to produce on sunny days relates to the percentage of days that are cloudy in your area. If only 10% of the days are cloudy, you don’t have to produce all that much extra power. If 50% of the days are cloudy, you’d have to produce twice as much as what you use on an average day so that your “pockets” (i.e. the batteries) don’t empty.

The way to size your panels, therefore, is to determine how much power you use on an average day (the person’s “expenses”), how many hours of full sunshine you can get on sunny days (the number of hours the person can work per workday), and adjust it up to provide enough extra to cover the percentage of cloudy days (this person’s vacation time). Nothing is 100% efficient, though, so you should add an extra 20%, at least, to cover the electricity losses between the panels and your household devices. (Even a battery doesn’t return back all the power that was stored into it.)

So, in a nutshell, that is how you can size the panels and as long as you view it in terms of income, expenses, and vacation days, it can be kept straightforward. Sizing the batteries can also be straightforward using the same example. Imagine what would happen if the person in our example could have no more than $200 in his pocket. How long can he be on vacation? No more than 1 day, no matter how much he made per hour! That’s right, even if he made $1000 per hour, he couldn’t be away from work for more than one day because no matter how much he made, he couldn’t have more than $200 in his pocket and that would be gone in two days. The extra money that he made would be lost as he wouldn’t have a place to put it. (While we’d view this “lost money” as being terribly bad for the hypothetical person, it is actually a good thing to have happen in a solar setup since it means that the batteries are full.) How big should this person’s pocket be? It depends on how many days in a row he’ll be on vacation. If the most he’ll be on vacation is two days, being able to hold $300 is enough. If he wants to be able to take a 2 week vacation, he’d need a pocket big enough to hold $1500. It is the same with batteries, but how do you figure the “vacation”? This boils down to how many cloudy days in a row your area gets. Do you rarely get even 3 days of straight cloudy weather? If so, then sizing the batteries so that they can hold 3 times your daily usage is probably enough. If you periodically have 2 weeks of straight cloudy weather, you either needs batteries that can hold 14 days of your power needs or you need a new address. :-)

All of this is why the boat captains couldn’t give you an easy answer. It all depends on how much power you use on an average day, the percentage of days that are cloudy and whether they come as one big clump of cloudy days or are spread out in between sunny days.

I know I am starting late on this forum and I will read backwards now as I go. In 1999, my wife and I had a rather large system in place (now up to 22 80 watt solar panels, 2 - windseekers at 500 watts and 2 smaller ones at 400 watts, two invertors, 36 deep cycle storage batteries, and also doing everything inside the 2100 sq foot house to enact what we put in. Now after over 7 years, (and both of us at age 60), now making a decision to either replace the storage deep cycle batteries at a rather large cost, several thousand dollars worth, or sell off what we have and use that money for other things. We really did do the saving electricity thing well, and our electric bills were always lower, and usually much lower, than those we knew. We replaced all light bulbs in the house and put in those 15 watt florescent ones, took out the electric range and hot water heater, put in propane, put a Sunfrost refrigerator (uses 100 watts at max), and many other things. We finally decided to sell off our system, as since we have lived in the southwest desert now for so long, have come to realize we could do fine without the added electricity (not great but comfortable). We just put in a pellet stove, so am getting a deep cycle battery (new) with invertor etc, to be able to run the pellet stove and/or refrigerator as needed. We had two invertors, so we could used the well 220 volt, but since we did that, have put together a hand pump (like our neighbor) and can use the well without electricity if needed. The reason for this rather lenghty note, is try to explain why we are getting rid of the system, and relying more on, kerosene laterns, hand pumps, etc, is we have a different mind set today than in 1999. Today I do not want to be a beacon to all those thrughout the valley with electric lights etc, if the should hit the fan, and if it does not, will have the extra money for other things. Hope this helps alittle.

Eccles – at 15:03 Another hopeful alternative energy prepper brought gently but firmly down to earth. You certainly have a “grounding” effect on these people!

you might want to research http://www.sundanzer.com/ for solar powered refigerater/freezer product. I am not reccomending this product since ido not have one. but I found this link today.

Another solar refrigerator and one I have purchased a couple of years ago, is the Sunfrost brand. A search would give you the information needed. It works at a maximum of 100 watts and is built to your specs for the place to be placed into. It keeps vegs and foor far fresher then normal refrgs.

HBB- Unfortunately, I envision a procession of disillusioned folks with shattered fantasies seeking me out with torches and pitchforks.

Oh, I’m thinking of trying some experiments with kites and Leyden jars to see if any energy can be obtained in that manner.

Great, Eccles! Next you’ll be working on developing sight enhancement tools and calling them “spectacles”! :-)

Actually, Ben and I were discussing just that invention, the last time we spoke.

Is there a human powered generator out there. I have been trying to come up with a SIP power source when the SHTF. My wife and I and the kids love to bike, 25 - 50 miles trips. We have good bikes with many gears, is it possible to turn the bikes into an elec. generator? Has anyone seen anything?

worried in NJ – at 20:27

Bike powered Gen.

http://users.erols.com/mshaver/bikegen.htm

worried in NJ – at 20:27

Another Bike powered Gen.

http://www.los-gatos.ca.us/davidbu/pedgen.html#DIY%20Plans

worried in NJ – at 20:27

Last one Honest!!!!!

http://www.econvergence.net/electro.htm

Sailor – at 21:20

Thank you. The thrid one was the charm, it had a link for “Buy Assembled” which I need.

worried in NJ – at 20:27 Been there, thought of that, reluctantly let it go. You could pedal all day and be lucky to replace an hours conservative use of power.

With a bicycle generator, a person in average shape could generator 100 watt-hours, and an athlete could generate about 250 Wh. Considering the 40 Wh laptop requirement above, a bicycle generator could provide a judicious persons’s electrical needs. They also make excellent backup generators (power on demand). And during pandemic times, the stress relief afforded by a moderate workout will do wonders to one’s attitude and heart health.

Hillbilly Bill – at 21:41

My thought would be this would be at the beans and rice state … when there is now power, no candles, no gas. I’m thinking that the 150 - 200 watts could charge the batteries for led lights at night. Wife and I could each put an hour on the bike dump the 300 - 400 watts into a battery and have lights at night. Remember I know nothing about elec. other than what Professor Eccles has “learned me” on this link. Before that, I thought AC /DC was a rock band.

worried in NJ – at 21:53 Understood, and some lights at night would be nice, especially if you have children. My 9 year-old granddaughter can’t stand total darkness so a lot of my lighting preps have been with her in mind. Remember that you will be burning more calories so food stock accordinly. Prof Eccles and I worked out what would be really nice, a machine you could sit down in and pedal from a reclining position. It would have a heavy flywheel that would be able to spin a high output DC genny. You would get the flywheel going by using a 15 or 18 speed gearbox and once the flywheel was spinning you could just keep it going in top gear. Sound nice? Only several thousand dollars to develop.

Anyway, the models you can either asesemble yourself or buy ready made will work. You probably will come out of the pandemic with legs like a frog and prostate problems. Don’t forget to include the cost of batteries and wiring.

Craig: okay, now I’m getting it. Your hypothetical scenario was classic! It needs to archived or something. Thank you so much for helping us understand Solar Power 101!

Will and Eccles: Have been steadily downsizing all day. Will be buying two solar/crank radios and solar/crank rechargeable LED flashlight and/or lanterns ASAP. Need to find out the exact wattage on my laptop. Am also going to be looking into the propane powered mini-fridges and the solar-powered sundanzers. It gets so hot here, that in a worse case scenario if BF doesn’t get you, the heat will. A lot of people especially the elderly cannot take the heat without becoming seriously ill. That is the main reason I am determined to figure out a way to make ice.

Grandma rummaged in the shed and pulled out an Arco M-25 solar panel that she forgot about…she’s been hiding it since hurricane Andrew. She was quite pleased with herself. OMG, help me. Went to Brandsmart today where I bought Grandma a 4 cup coffemaker, battery-operated fan and 5″ black/white TV and told her that’s it. She has to get used to her new emergency appliances. Then I took her out to dinner for a nice talk, so she doesn’t think I’m getting too freaky-deaky over this whole precious energy thing.

You guys are totally AWESOME. Thank you.

Hillbilly Bill – at 22:03

I am thinking of the kids, 6, 3 & 2. I also didn’t mention that the wife is a marathon runner and likes to bike a couple of hours on her “off day”. I like the fly wheel idea, is there a link to the plans.

FlaKeys, some people love their French Press coffee makers. Just takes boiling water, and the grounds sit in the water until you press it out, so it’s similar to the cone and filter (Melitta). Maybe it’s worth experimenting? I’ve seen family-sized and, at a camping store, individual-sized units. The camping store also has little espresso pots. And a friend has a tiny battery-powered frother that whips 2% milk!

worried in NJ Well, you and your wife have a lot better chabce of generating some power than we do here! I have seen plans that utilize the flywheel in an exercise bike. However, nearly all of hose bikes are made so as to make pedaling DIFFICULT rather than making it possible to spin the flywheel really fast so you really need to scrap the rest of the bike and then you end up with a flywheel that is really not optimal for the job. Maybe I am splitting hairs here, but for the machine I described to be really efficent it has to be engineered for the specific purpose of generating power by pedaling. Everything I have seen has been a shortcut that does not approach what could be achieved if the pedal generator was designed from the ground up.

HBB,

You need to buy the right bicycle seat>

Melanie: Right you are! I have known about that particular problem for awhile. I won’t ride a bike unless it has a nice big fat seat like my old Schwinn had.

Melanie- Now then, you see why every time I get the urge to exercise vigorously, I just go and have a lie-down till it passes. You never know what bad things can happen to you if you get carried away.

Similarly, I have observed that when someone goes out and has a pizza and some beer or soda, they come back looking relaxed and content. When they go out for a jog, they come back sweating like a pig, breathing hard, and looking not altogether in the best of shape.

From empirical observation, therefore, I have drawn my own conclusions about how best to approach life.

Closed due to length. Conversation is continued here.