Since my personal physician has shot me down for any Tamiflu or prescription meds that are recommended by Dr. Woodson in his Preparedness Guide, I will obtain them through hopefully legitimate sources overseas, although I read today that the U.S. Government is intercepting more and more of them mailed to U.S.
My specific question here is one I hope one of the Doctors or someone familiar with medications can answer. Hydrocodone W/ACP (Lortab-5) is available fairly inexpensively but Dr. Woodson recommends dosage of 5mg/325mg, but the closest dosage I see everywhere available is 5/500. Is this dosage close enough seeing the ACP is a relatively innoucous pain reliever if taken for a short period of time for most people?
An addendum here. As my physican refused my request, saying the CDC in Atlanta recommends that doctors NOT give Tamiflu beforehand as a matter of course, I checked the CDC site myself and also the AMA (American Medical Association) and they both said basically, no Tamiflu for the great unwashed. I hope others will follow my lead and send an email to both taking them to task, to put it tactfully and kindly but directly.
All of us have spent a lot of time and money to be prepared for whatever may happen. It is very disappointing for your personal physician to tell you that you can not have the one thing that may be of help for you or your loved ones if and when the worst case scenario plays itself out.
Nautical man, It is not only disappointing but also disgusting .I was called whiney,demanding,and demeaning by many of the nurses and docs on this site,for posing a few questions on the subject.People who had stated they “bought thier Tamiflu last summer when it was only 65.00″ are now making statements like “it is no silverbullet”….I will be sure to send the emails and encourage others to do the same….Why would any of us unwashed want that Tamiflu anyways,They say it may not work you know.Do they think we dont notice the articles daily that specify that the who very quickly blankets a bf area with what?TAMIFLU.We must be to stupid to have read about the mice testing also.Heck we probably just hang around fluwiki to learn how to can or make bird flu jokes right.I think this situation is about to get ugly.
One of my colleagues and his wife came down with a mild version of the flu last week. Their daughter has a serious case. Doctor put them all on tamiflu. Are we wasting tamiflu? Are there other antibiotics for non-avian flu?
Maryrose, Are you sure they took it?
Has Tamiflu made any difference to the folks who have contracted BF in other countries? Does anyone know if they were treated with it?
I think the Eygyptian cases were treated with T - 1 died - 2 survived - the woman who died was treated too late - the official explanation.
There are anecdotes from various scientists who say that those who were treated early appear to have a better chance of survival. There is no hard data.
Nautical Man - I do not know what the ACP stands for that you are referring to but I do know what Hydrocodone is. I cannot think why any doctor would prescribe it for the flu. It is a pretty strong pain reliever, generic for Vicodin, which some people develop an addiction to. Unless you have a real need for a strong pain reliever I don’t know of any doctor that will prescribe it just for the asking. I am not sure I would want to know them.
I think the Hydrocodone is suggested as a palliative measure. Someone who is perhaps fatally ill would at least be relaxed by a pain reliever with codeine. I think that is what Woodson was going for. A low-dose Tylenol with codeine tablet would work similarly. I know in Canada acetominophen/codeine or aspirin/codeine can be bought OTC.
Another thing to consider is that if TSHTF, most of us will be without much in the way of emergency or other health care for some time. Something as simple as a broken bone may still be difficult to get treated for, and a hospital with pandemic patienst won’t be the place to go. In that case, an opiate pain reliver is also a good idea.
maryrose- Tamiflu is not an antibiotic. You don’t treat viral influenza, of whatever flavor, with an antibiotic (anti-bacterial)
Since there is basically nothing else out there to help combat it I think most would feel better having it on hand than not. Who knows if it will be effective, or need higher doses as has been hinted at. But it would give many peace of mind. Too bad no one can get it. I’d love to get it for my family, but our docs also shot us down. So rather than pay black market I’ll focus my $$$ on preps and OTC meds.
I don’t care what public health doctors say. They look at the population as a whole, I look at the welfare of my family. I have obtained Tamiflu through friends in Europe and I am obtaining some more through other friends in the Far East. Prices are around 30 US$ for a packet of 10, and they are the genuine article, from pharmacies. I am counting three packets per adult in view of the new data on dosage and length of treatment.
Roman, Yes, I am sure they took it. I’ve talked to this colleague about avian flu, to no avail, I’m afraid. He says that he’s been trying to AVOID the subject.
Anonymous, Why do you think the physician prescribed tamiflu? I’m confused. Avian flu is transmitted by a virus and tamiflu seems to be the medicine of choice.
maryrose, I think anonymous was just pointing out that you used the term antibiotic, instead of anti-viral, when refering to flu treatments.
Tamiflu is an anti-viral. It, along with amantadine and rimantadine, and relenza, are all anti-virals that are used to combat the flu.
Unfortunantly, two of our best antivirals have suddenly become useless for seasonal flu, because the flu virus has developed resistance to them. It is unknown whether the Avian flu will be resistant to them as well.
So right now, for seasonal flu, Tamiflu is the only arrow in the anti-viral quiver.
Nautical Man
As far as lortab-5 (hydrocodone/APAP) is concerned, it would have some limited benefits in some flu patients. I would think the difference in acetaminophen wouldn’t be much of a consideration.
You’d have to be careful not to exceed the maximum daily dose of acetaminophen (found in a lot of cold/flu remedies) if you take it. Liver damage is possible. Particularly when combined with alcohol (also found in some OTC formulas).
And of course, Hydrocodone is habit forming. But, it does have some up sides. It can help as a cough suppressant, can relieve pain, and can help an anxious patient sleep a little.
Suppressing a cough isn’t always a good thing. We cough so we can expell mucus from our lungs. But for patients who are coughing uncontrollably, or who are in danger of fracturing a rib from coughing violently, it could be useful.
The real downside is that it can be a CNS depressant, and could depress respirations in someone who is already oxygen compromised. That could be fatal.
Lortab may seem relatively benign, but it is a drug, it can have side effects and interactions with other meds, and needs to be used carefully, and with full knowledge of the downsides.
Best advice? Talk to your doctor, and then decide if it’s something you feel you want in your arsenal.
Fla Medic
Thank you for the information on Hydrocodone/Lortab, and yes, according to Dr. Woodson’s book, Hydrocodone is to be used in very limited circumstances. For instance, in case of cyanosis, the patients skin turns blue, meaning probability of death, bleeding from the mouth, coughing up blood, bleeding from rectum, usually meaning a blood clot and probable death, all of which would mean severe pain and would call for this drug. Other uses he mentions are severe stomach cramps, severe headaches, severe coughs, some of which you could use just the ACP for instead. Would suggest anyone who has questions to read his book or go to his Preparation Guide here on fluwiki, as I am not able to write all the circumstances in which Hydrocodone may be useful. Like any drug, as Fla Medic says, it has its upside and downside and should be used cautiously if at all.
The big issue here, to me at least, is when medical care breaks down, which seems to be one thing everyone can agree on. If Doctors will not prescribe Tamiflu or anything else that may be of help to those of us left on our own, and the U.S. Government, in its wisdom, or should I say,lack of, kowtowing to the Pharmautical companies, what is left for us to do here? Add in the crackdown reported the other day on drugs coming in to the U.S. from other countries, it is almost as if some incompetent or ignorant bureaucrats somewhere are scheming to reduce our chances to survive, although I am sure they will have Tamiflu for themselves and their loved ones. I do have some Tamiflu, but recent posts and even Dr. Woodson all indicate that more than one treatment, probably 7 to 10 days worth, are needed. Although I obtained mine at a reasonable price, that company is now unable to obtain it, so because of my Doctors refusal to prescribe, enabling me to obtain it at reasonable price using my health insurance, I must pay the going rate overseas, which is going higher as we speak. Hopefully it is authentic at least. I will do what I have to do to protect my family.
To the Moderators, the Doctors, and all who have some influence, perhaps it is time to pursue this problem. Your thoughts?
To other Doctors reading this who will not prescribe Tamiflu for your patients, read Dr. Woodson’s paper here on fluwikie http://tinyurl.com/lomje about why he thinks you should. Thought I had a good relationship with mine, but will re-examine that after being abruptly dismissed on my efforts.
Thanks to all for your thoughts and comments.
I have some Lortab stored away in my preps just because regular emergency room care won’t be available. In case of a broken bone it would be very handy to ease pain and suffering. I know the precautions for using it and understand that is is a controlled medication. I also have some Percocet, but that is for a worse situation, actually much worse.
Hydrocodone is a narcotic opiate, used as a pain releiver and as an anti-tussive (cough suppressant). It is highly addictive and can also induce respiratory arrest if used in too high of a dose. It is NOT a recommended medication in the BF arsenal.
Trade names: Hycodan, Tussionex, Novahistex and others.
I personally know of 2 cases where hydrocodone has been fatal in adolescent children.
With a broken bone, pain is the least of your problems, you need to address properly setting the bone to prevent disformity as well as infection issues (even gangrene).
If you start asking for Hydrocodone from your MD, you’re going to look like a druggie for sure (never mind sideways looks for BF prepping).
There is not nearly enough Tamiflu to go around. It really is that simple. Even at full production and complete distribution, only 1 out of every 100 people are able to receive it. As with all products, there is a limited capacity for production (not just manufacturing facilities, but also for raw ingredients - no I don’t mean just the star anise). Besides, Tamiflu doesn’t appear to be the answer, anyhow (still 50%+ mortality).
Baba, at $30/10-pack, I question the authenticity of your purchase. Wholesale price (cost to the pharmacy) in Canada for a 10-pack is $41 CAD (about $35US). That’s with no mark-up, fee, shipping, whatever. Canada has price controls that keep meds at or below the international median
Nautical Man, are you looking for Tamiflu for just yourself? The problem I ran into was I could get a doc to give me an RX for just me (I have some preexisting health conditions) but there was no way the doc was going to write RX’s for everyone in the family (including robust teens — who are, of course, my greatest worry should avian flu come around) — so rather than having one round of Tamiflu and trying to figure out which kid gets to have it, I’ve decided the best bet is to quarantine early and long.
Olymom, it is unethical for an MD to write a prescription for a patient they have not seen. I suspect that if he wrote you a script, then he would also likely write for your kids too, provided they attend a scheduled appointment in person.
Dr. Woodson’s preparedness plan raises some thorny issues.
1. He bluntly and pointedly indicates that the people requesting the Tamiflu are more educated about its use than physicians. The same is true with respect to narcotics. Does this make a drug addict more qualified to prescribe Oxycontin?
2. He appears to advocate the induction of strains of influenza that are resistant to Tamiflu, simply because existing strains that exhibited resistance are less virulent. It is known that viruses share information. What is to prevent a more virulent strain from acquiring this ability? This is irresponsible, in my opinion.
3. He categorically rejects the idea that those with the Tamiflu will use it inappropriately. How can anyone make this generalization. If you have 1 course of treatment and 2 kids who’s going to get it? Chances are, you’ll give each 1/2, hope it’s enough. This is inappropriate.
4. It is true that treatment requires prompt action (for regular influenza, it is 48 hours) for treatment to be effective.
I also note that the good doctor has a pamphlet FOR SALE on flu preparedness. My take on this is he is playing on the fears of ordinary people and telling them exactly what they want to hear, that it is appropriate to prescribe Tamiflu. The people support his decision in this regard, and want to hear more, so they buy and pay for his pamphlet.
That, my friends, smells like a scam job.
Olymom: I would respectfully suggest that you reconsider and take even the single dosage of Tamiflu, though I agree with RPh about taking your kids in for a physical with the hopes that your MD will write a script for all.
Think of it this way, if a child wakes in the middle of the night with the flu, having a single dose may enable you to START that child on medication UNTIL you can get him to a doctor of hospital. It seems that timing is imperative in the use of Tamiflu….the earlier, the more effective. Look at that single dose as a way of getting the medication into them within HOURS of onset.
Worst case scenario, if you are unable to get this child to a doctor or hospital, or unable to get any more Tamiflu than the one dose, you still may be lucky and save this child and STILL be able to stop it the flu in its tracks before infecting the rest of the family through isolation and meticulous precautions. There are alot of “IFS” here, but I would not turn away a dose in that you are one of the lucky few who can get their doctors to write a script for it.
PPh, Do you think there is any chance of IVIG being beneficial for people exposed to BF? Also, in the event of cytokine storm, what are our thoughts on some of the monoclonal antibodies, i.e. Ritxan, to help moderate the immune response? Old RN
Kava-kava is good to reduce anxiety in a healthy person, but I don’t know what effects it would have in the very sick. I know it made me quite spacey when I took 1 capsule x3/day for a couple of days. The advantage is that it isn’t a controlled substance right now. (“In large enough doses, the narcotic drugs that the plant contains can increase the force of heart action while decreasing the pulse rate, induce a hypnotic state, and paralyze large skeletal muscles such as those of the legs” according to the Reader’s Digest Magic and Medicine of Plants. Is this a desirable effect for someone in the end stage of influenza? The capsules aren’t the same as the fresh substance used in the South Pacific islands, either) (The People’s Pharmacy Guide to Home and Herbal Remedies by Joe Graedon and Theresa Graedon has numerous cautions: NOT for use in depression, pregnancy, nursing mothers, with alcohol, with Valium, Xanax, or Ativan, with barbituates, with valerian or other sedative herbs, don’t drive, and don’t abuse it or many serious conditions will result.) It isn’t quite a narcotic, though, according to both books.
So, is it a useful backup in extremity, to reduce the panic of not being able to breathe? I’m just guessing here and would appreciate a medical person’s advice.
I believe that there is a chance for I.V. immunoglobulins to have some benefit, but this therapy would be very, very controversial. It is, after all a blood product (AIDS, Hepatitis, etc.), and very, very, expensive. I don’t think we’ll see much use for that in the general population.
Rituxan and other monoclonal antibodies are genetically engineered products, and are inherently expensive and of limited supply. They are usually reserved for treatment of refractory auto-immune disorders like RA or Crohns. For this reason, there is not a lot of supply available for treatment for the general public.
Steroids - prednisone to treat cytokine storm. That’s how I see it.
OlyMom
My thoughts were and are to try and get enough Tamiflu for us and our two children and one of their spouses. While I did that, I started reading that this virus may require 7 to 10 days of Tamiflu instead of five, a normal course, foolishly thinking that I could get more through my own physician. I have gone through life in a job where I helped people every day and have tried to live my personal life in the same way. My biggest disapointment is in not being able to persuade friends, relatives, and neighbors that this Pandemic is very much a possibility, and secondly that my doctor is thinking as a public health official would, rather than at physician/patient level, in spite of the many years I have been seeing him. To Question Everything IMHO while I can not speak as what Dr. Woodson is thinking, I think he deserves the highest praise for his preparedness guide. If you think $4 or $5 is too much to pay for his pamphlet/book, feel free to download it from Fluwikie, which I believe is pretty much word for word. Hardly think he is going to get rich off of that. And suggest you read that and his reasons for thinking that doctors should prescribe Tamiflu for their patients. Also free on Fluwikie. See above for url. Also, do you think medical care will be available if the worst case scenario hits? I would rather be prepared at home. I will self isolate as much as possible and trust to God and myself, not local, state or Federal government. They are fine in their place, but…. As I have suggested before, read Barry’s book, The Great Inluenza and then tell me if you trust that the government will be there. You raise some good questions, but everyone will have to make their own decisions as to what is right and best for them and their families.
Jane @1708
It’s just that while Kava Kava has anxiety reducing properties, but when it became widely popular, there were many cases of severe liver toxicity, (some fatal I think), and the FDA recommended pulling it from shelves, and has disappeared in may places.
It may be one thing for indigenous people to use herbs and such in traditional ways, but it is another thing entirely when it is processed, concentrated and put in little capsules, and taken by folks that think if one is good, more is better.
Doing liver damage in someone w/ BF is the last thing you want to do.
if i bash my thumb with a hammer,i would prefer two vicodin over two aspirin. if i was just summoned to an audit,i would prefer two valiums over two aspirin. if i had strep throat,i would prefer two appropriate antibiotic tablets over two aspirin. you are prepping for all possibilities. have everything you can get your hands on.
Possibly this thread had run its course when it was cut off after two days due to Forum problems. Great to see everyone back again.
During this hiatus of only a month have wondered how people are doing in their quest to obtain Tamiflu and some of the other recommended medications, and would like to hear from others as to what they think should be stockpiling as to antibiotics and there reasoning in that regard.
Hey everyone, glad the fluwikie is zooming along at warp speed. Can anyone offer a commnent on the edrugstore.md offering of Tamiflu. Is it legit, is the Tamiflu likely to be legit? Please advies asap. Thanks and good to be back.
NJ Jeeper at 08:15 - I can’t comment on edrugstor, but I did buy from:
http://www.bbonlinepharmacy.com
(search for tamiflu on the site). Their prices are better, almost $40 per course, and they are located here in the usa i believe.
jquest — did you get a shipment yet from those folks? I *thought* they were in South Africa, but I might be confused. Just curious.
I bought from them and it came from the UK- took 3 weeks and everything looks legit
anonymous at 13:04 are you talking about bbonline pharmacy or edrugstoremd?
anonymous at 13:33 wwas my
May be a dumb question, but we’d still need a doc’s prescription to order tamiflu on these sites, correct?
No, they do not require a Dr Rx.
anon at 12:42 - I’ve forgotten actually since it was months ago, but I KNOW that i did get a shipment from www.vrdrug.com and they were very quick. They’re about $98 USD per tamiflu course. No prescription needed. as I remember they sent me an email after ordering and I had to speak to someone there to verify my shipping address and then it arrived asap.
I called edrugstore.com and got someone with a bit of an accent, but most of the US now has an accent. They gave me a office address in Chicago, that could be legit or a mail drop.
But they said the rx would ship from a us pharmacy with a contact name and number there and that they deal only with major legitimate manufacturers and the rx would be FDA approved and the same as you get in Walgreens.
So buyer beware I guess. If I do order, I will try to check the rx against some official rx that I can borrow from someone.
I haven’t had the guts to order from those sites. I wonder if you are really going to get what they claim. And how can they operate legitimately without prescriptions?
I just read “Question Everything”’s 27 Mar comment, suggesting Dr. Woodson is running a scam because he has a booklet for sale. I’ve read it, and other things Dr. Woodson has published on the internet, and I’m quite sure that he says what he believes, not because he’s looking to tell people what he thinks they want to hear to sell more books. “Question Everything”s ill-informed cynicism smells like a pile of intestinal output to me.
The edrugstore has a group of “physicians” on staff and you fill out a medical questionaire telling them you have no illnesses, it is supposedly referred to the Dr. then you get the shipment after the Dr reviews and approves your application.
Madame Moutard at 15:05, I agree with you. I see nothing wrong with Dr. Woodson charging a very small price (around $5 a few months ago) for what is a well-written professionally printed booklet with good information. I may not agree with every last word he writes, but like anything else you have to read the information and run it through your own filters, beliefs and knowledge. At least he’s trying to get some fairly unvarnished information out there about the reality we will all face if pandemic flu hits. I don’t understand why people start to “smell a rat” the moment someone wants to be fairly compensated for their time and effort. I myself have been trying for several months to get a small business off the ground selling flu preparation kits… not to make money, but because I know it is just in the nature of many people to prefer the convenience of something pre-packaged, and I’d sure like my community to be better prepared. I offer a long list of items in the package and hardly make any money for my effort. For this, I have been accused of “fear-mongering” and “profiteering.” I am just trying to fill what I see as a need in my community, and have met with zero success. I say bravo to Dr. Woodson for managing to be compensated for the knowledge he shares.
To say nothing of the 1000′s of people who got it for free. Dr Woodson’s Monograph was first made available, free for the asking as a download. I have the 1st and 2nd additions, have printed them out, copied them, and distributed them to anyone who would take them. The minuscule amount that he charges for this priceless bit of preparedness information, education, and recommendations, simply covers the cost of him providing it in printed and bound form.
I almost spit my coffee all over my monitor when I read that someone would think that Dr Woodson was attempting to profit from what in reality has been selflessly given. And, in case you are wondering… NO, I’m not related or affiliated with Dr. Woodson, I am just someone who is very grateful to have benefited from his hard work and thorough consideration of the subject.
On Tamiflu… I have my supply, brought in early before the rush or the cut-off from Roche, I would love to get more for others who do not have it in my family. My question is: At this late date and the demand, what are the reasonable chances of getting real Tamiflu vs. counterfeit if I ordered from the internet?
SZ
The airport, JFK, has intercepted containers of Tamiflu, ordered online (which are not legal with their “own doctors”), and the samples have been fake. Who wants to take that chance with a family members life. I know their web sites look sooo educational and nice, but with the bucks they get, that’s not hard to do.
SophiaZoe, LauraB and others who have asked about obtaining Tamiflu now at a reasonable price.
Have now ordered and recieved Tamiflu twice from a company in England called Quality Health, Inc., http://www.qhi.co.uk. Their prices are very reasonable, in the 65 to 70 dollar range, shipped from Eastern Europe, in whatever language, English instructions easily found for instance on the Mayo Clinic Website. They require a fax with charge info, after that they will ship with your ok to charge the card you used the first from online order. Looks authentic, exp. 6/2010. Much research in Europe before using them, many places, countries do not have any last I checked. Use your own discretion, but I am pleased with my orders. Good Luck
Addendum, now trying to obtain the other prescription items recommended by Dr. Woodson in his guide. These are more difficult to get. If anyone is interested will let you know if and when I am succesful.
dare I say—fish antibiotics?
go to amazon and google this—
I have amoxicillin, erithromycin, tetracycline and keflex.
If I have to take these and suddenly develop scales, gills and an insatiable desire to slowly circle the swimming pool like an overgrown koi, you will know what happened.
Placing no bets on Tamiflu—I used it this year for the flu, and didn’t do a d*mn thing except leave a hole at the bottom of the wallet.
How can you tell if a Tamiflu you’ve gotten is counterfeit?
Good question … I’ve seen the web sites saying you don’t need a prescription. Are these all counterfeit? Anyone order from them and get counterfeit, or can you really know?
Closed to increase Forum speed.