The purpose of this thread is to discuss and explore possible treatments that may be useful in the treatment of pandemic influenza.
Tamiflu is not available to most of us and I for one would like to find out more about what could be used instead. Everyone needs to make their own choices about what they might or might not use- I think it’s useful to have a range of options in one place.
Suggestion of options are welcome whether or not they have been proven with double-blind clinical trials- although any research, supporting documentation, etc. that is available should be included. If you have a particular area of expertise please state this in your first post.
Zanamivir (Relenza, resistence less likely, but only protects the lungs) Peramivir (or such, not yet available) Amantadine [Qinghai strain is sensitive, but resistences are likely to develope) Rimantadine [same] Elderberry [Israel-studies] Cystus [study Univ.Muenster] Geranium sanguineum L. [pubmed 2005]
pneumovax (streptokokken? - pneumonia) antibiotics (pneumonia)
making the blood,larynx,pharynx,intestine acidic ?
Thanks gs
http://tinyurl.com/lutvy
link for study on Geranium sanguineum L. [pubmed 2005]
My plan is a combination of herbal anti-virals and homeopathic remedies. My background is veterinary physiology, and extensive and effective lay use of homeopathy. I offer the following for those who already have an interest in or understanding of homeopathy, as opposed to proof of efficacy to those who do not have that background. (I think most people come to homeopathy as a skeptic, then have an experience that turns them around and sends them looking for more applications.)
On the homeopathic end, there are two remedies - Oscillococcinum and Influenzinum (a “nosode”) - which I plan to use at the very beginning of symptoms. Oscillo first, and if within 24 hours there is no noticeable improvement, then switch to Influenzinum.
Oscillo is widely available OTC and likely to be effective only at the very first stage of the flu, before you are altogether sure that is what you have. Oscillo is the one I carry with me at all times. Influenzinum probably has to be ordered on-line. One source is Washington Homeopathic: http://www.homeopathyworks.com/product.php?xProd=9185
Oscillo and Influenzinum could also be used prophylactically if you were around someone with the flu.
If flu developed anyway, I would then switch to one of a number of other remedies. From my research, the most likely candidates for an adult are gelsemium, eupatorium, baptisia and bryonia. However, it will depend on the symptoms. Unfortunately, that means becoming familiar with a number of remedies. The best sources of that information I have found are the following references:
An outstanding collection of articles posted at: http://homeopathic.org/flu_articles.html
Also, Sandra Perko’s recently updated history and textbook: The Homeopathic Treatment of Influenza, available from Amazon.
An added benefit to the homeopathic approach is that you could prepare a “wet” dose by diluting the granules in a partially filled bottle of spring water. It is necessary to success (very vigorously shake) the bottle before EACH dose. If the bottle is running low on water, you just add more water (not more granules) and then vigorously shake again. That makes the remedy last a very long time, so you only need a little to get you going.
The other thing to keep in mind with homeopathic remedies for optimal effect is that they are best taken on a “neutral” mouth - nothing to eat or drink for at least 15 minutes or longer before or after the dose.
If h5n1 goes pandemic in a big and virulent way, the international homeopathic community will be paying attention to what remedy or limited number of remedies work for this strain. That information, when available, will make it much easier for others to choose the right remedy from the beginning.
http://www.israelnn.com/news.php3?id=99387
link to article about Sambucol (Israel studies gs?) that Torange provided in the thread ‘Sambucol effective’
link to clinical trial information for Sambucol- Razei Bar Industries
http://www.sambucol.com/
I was lazy with links.
There was a thread cystus here AFAIR
http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Forum.Cystus
homeopathy- I don’t believe it. Someone suggested in a German forum to dissolve
a dead swan in 10^100 gallons of water and put it into little bottles ;-)
Although, I read in Barry’s book about a (questionable) study of very successful homeopathic treatments.
gs, you aren’t describing homeopathy, so your swan “remedy” probably wouldn’t be effective. LOL
Calico- what herbal anti-virals are you planning on/considering using?
MaMa, elderberry seems like one of the best, but I happen to be slightly allergic to it. My household will use it but I probably won’t. (It’s just an annoying contact allergy - perhaps if I’m sick enough I won’t care.)
What I am currently taking daily, because seasonal flu has now reached my area and as of this week my boss and her family are sick, is grapefruit seed extract and olive leaf extract.
appreciate the homeopathic links and information. I use a lot of alternative medicine and am stocking up on the following : oscillo, Airborne (CA based company that delivers a prevention medications of vitamins, minerals, herbs, flowers, etc in a tablet delivery system like Alka Seltzer), Osha (a Native American tincture from HerbPharm (and others) that is a natural anti viral/anti bacterial, and an anti viral that I take now when I head into crowds that I buy from my chiropractor called UltraVir-X made by Biotics research. I also take a lot of vitamins, aminos and other supplements to stay healthy while I attend school at night and to deal with ongoing issues of adrenal exchaustion.
Another thing you might want to consider is to use a Nettipot from Aruyvedic medicine. Its to keep the nostrils and mucous membranes clean and moist.
sambucol
OmegaBrite
Calico- you are taking grapefruit seed extract and olive leaf extract as supplements, can you explain their benefits?
anon_22- What is OmegaBrite?
MaMa. One thanks for your comments on the other thread. Two, Yes i do have a well stocked libary on medcinal plants, folk medicine, and other alternative cures. It’s been a subject of great interest to me for many years. And led to a lot of reading about diseases themselves, As they were reffered to so often in my other books. I have resisted posting anything untill lemon balm [As a diagnostic tool for newcastle disease in poultry]. for reasons of not wanting to mislead anyone into useing thier funds for something i could not say would be effective. Or worse, cuaseing harm. Take care i’m sure there are plenty of hucksters seeing this disease as a chance to turn a quick buck.
In your town, or near you, there lives and works someone who has spent their life and deep intellect searching these texts, empirically collecting the evidence and putting these healthy living methods into everyday activities. Practicing examples of truly healthy living do exist, but you have to go and find them.
May I suggest from reading these threads that we have many who fit this bill, some are obvious from the display of expertise and some who are quiet will only answer when asked. If you are one of these people, feel free to respond here or in another thread indicating your area of interest.
However informal you may regard your own training, you will find that using ‘home remedies’, if you will, is practiced by over 80% of the US population. Your willingness to share your grandmother’s nuggets of wisdom may very well be what spurs the highly trained herbalists to brainstorm THE SOLUTION to H5N1.
Not everyone listed as an expert is an expert in any field, so ask questions, cross-tabulate responses and most of all-
Contribute here with your questions.
Calico-
Remember that most Grapeseed Extract also contains unlabelled Benzethonium Chloride and that most modern extracts (even olive leaf) are pulled using harsh solvents like acetone (nail polish). Residues may accumulate in your body exacerbating any allergy symptoms.
Correction -
Remember that most Grapefruit Seed Extract also contains unlabelled Benzethonium Chloride.
Its much safer to pulverize the seeds or just chew them.
Partial cite of study follows:
1: Pharmazie 1999 Jun;54(6):452–6
Aspects of the antimicrobial efficacy of grapefruit seed extract and its relation to preservative substances contained.
von Woedtke T, Schluter B, Pflegel P, Lindequist U, Julich WD.
Institute of Pharmacy, Ernst Moritz Arndt University, Greifswald, Germany.
The antimicrobial efficacy as well as the content of preservative agents of six commercially available grapefruit seed extracts were examined. Five of the six extracts showed a high growth inhibiting activity against the test germs Bacillus subtilis SBUG 14, Micrococcus flavus SBUG 16, Staphylococcus aureus SBUG 11, Serratia marcescens SBUG 9, Escherichia coli SBUG 17, Proteus mirabilis SBUG 47, and Candida maltosa SBUG 700. In all of the antimicrobial active grapefruit seed extracts, the preservative benzethonium chloride was detected by thin layer chromatography. Additionally, three extracts contained the preserving substances triclosan and methyl parabene. In only one of the grapefruit seed extracts tested no preservative agent was found. However, with this extract as well as with several self-made extracts from seed and juiceless pulp of grapefruits (Citrus paradisi) no antimicrobial activity could be detected (standard serial broth dilution assay, agar diffusion test). Thus, it is concluded that the potent as well as nearly universal antimicrobial activity being attributed to grapefruit seed extract is merely due to the synthetic preservative agents contained within. Natural products with antimicrobial activity do not appear to be present.
I have been chasing the details of many of the alternative anti-virals.
http://www.fluwikie.com/index.php?n=Consequences.Olive Most of the research on olive leaf’s anti-viral properties have come from studies on calcium elenolate. Calcium elenolate is not in olive leaf extracts nor does it occur in your body. “Calcium elenolate came from acid hydrolysis of elenolic acid. Where by they boiled elenolic acid with calcium carbonate to produce Calcium elenolate.” according to Richard Hall of Ameriden International. http://www.ameriden.com/news_olive1.htm The antiviral studies to date have proven strong effectiveness in-vitro (test tubes) and using nasal washes. When taken orally they results were not the same. Olive leaf does contain Oleurpein. When Oleuropein is taken orally it breaks down into other compounds, one of which is elenolic acid. Elenolic acid has been found to be highly virucidal in lab tests. (Kaij-a-Kamb, M; Amoros, M; Girre, L. “Search for new antiviral agents of plant origin. Pharma-Acta-Helv, 67(5–6):130–47, 1992). Scientists for Upjohn learned in the 1970s that calcium elenolate blood serum protein bound in all the human studies (in vivo) rendering it ineffectual. (I do not understand this completely so cannot describe it more simply). This is an important point because many products selling olive leaf as anti-viral back their claims by citing the results from calcium elenolate. Because it may work by other mechnisms, more testing needs to be done to confirm effectiveness of olive leaf as an anti-viral treatment.
Scullcap has also been suggested and when you read the pubmed 7741518 abstract you think that it might work. I ordered the full report and learned it had no effect on the virus beyond 6 hours after infection. The mice in one study were given 4mg per kilogram of bodyweight of scullcap interperitoneally. This does not equate to an oral dosage. Is an equivalent dosage for a person of 150 pounds (68kg) would be 4mg x 68kg =272 grams? That is almost 10 ounces.
Some Grapefruit Seed Extract manufacturers claim it works against fowl plague (bird flu) but when I have requested documentation to support this claim none have been able to provide it. I see no documentation in PubMed. Even if it works in vitro that is no guarantee it works in-vivo (in humans).
I sent a letter to many specialists asking for more information on this subject and only one replied. James Duke said he has been asked not to make recommendations for treatment of pandemic influenza. In the past he has expressed interest in garlic and black elderberry. I plan to buy elderberry in bulk and make my own sambucol. Drinking cranberry and green tea may help marginally so start now, it couldn’t hurt. Propolis, quercertin, and garlic may help. EPA and GLA oils may reduce lung damage. I think NAC and olive leaf are contraindicated (cancel each other out or cause harm) if taken at the same time ( sorry I can’t cite the source). Of course you should read precautions on anything you might take. Read about it and try some of whatever you plan to take now to confirm whether you experience side effects. http://home.san.rr.com/earlybird/influenza%20research.htm
The main difference between this and other EPA products is that it is distilled pharmaceutical grade.
We all know that fish oils are good for us. The problem is that the oily part of the fish which contains the precious nutrients is also the bit that accumulates toxic pollutants. This is because of bioaccumulation, where fat-soluble toxins which do not get excreted, remain in the bodies of organisms and are consumed by the animal at the next level of the food chain. Because of this, the higher the organism is in the food chain, the higher the toxin level in the body fat. This is also called bio-magnification. As aquatic food chains have many more levels than terrestrial ones, marine species tend to exhibit this bioaccumulation and biomagnification a lot more. That is why regular fish oil is also very sadly likely to become highly contaminated.
The distillation process using pharmaceutical standard techniques produces a high level of purity and in the process leaves behind the toxins.
Good resources on environmental toxins especially those that disrupt hormone and reproductive funtions:
http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/ http://www.steingraber.com/ - her recent book Having Faith includes some profound indictment on our predicament in relation to fish oils, that the most precious nutrients are also the most contaminated.
MaMa, I’m taking grapefruit seed extract and olive leaf extract as short-term anti-virals, not really as supplements. They were at the head of a list of an altmed specialist I consider to be very knowledgeable. However, in light of NS1′s and Fredness’ contributions I may rethink this. Thanks for the feedback.
anon_22
There are testing programs for fish oil and a good number available that are free of contaminants. Here’s an entity devoted to quality and testing:
http://www.nutrasource.ca/ifos_new/index.cfm
And here’s a membership site that reports on supplements as to meeting stated potencies, absence of contaminants, etc.:
http://www.consumerlab.com/results/omega3.asp
There are plenty of sources for contaminant free fish oil.
jack walt- thank you for your response and especially for the caution. I’m sure there are many who as you said are “hucksters seeing this disease as a chance to turn a quick buck”. I hope that we are able to sort the wheat from the chaff in terms of alternatives. I think that with conventional medicine unable to offer treatment that it is vital to look elsewhere. The alternative is to do nothing, which I find unacceptable. As long as what is proposed is not harmful in and of itself, it cannot hurt to try it should the worst occur and we are faced with a pandemic. If the treatment ends up having no effect and the virus kills me I won’t be any deader than if I took nothing. You take care too.
NS1 and fredness- thank you for the info.
fredness, “Drinking cranberry and green tea”- is that cranberry tea and green tea, just wanted to clarify that it was tea and not possibly juice(cranberry).
Anon_22- I am very glad that you posted about the contamination issue. My son takes an Omega 3–6−9 supplement as part of his treatment for eczema. I will be sure to find out just how safe that brand is and switch if I’m not satisfied.
In the absence of a post-event solution, the primary viable remediation is to prevent the event.
Omega3 EPA is but one of the required nutrients for a cell-to-cell signalling system to work. In fact the Omega3 class is only one class of the Essential Fatty Acids that are required.
EFA’s, in a much purer form than fish oil, are found in Evening Primrose, Flax Seed, Purslane Leaf and practically all forms of sea vegetable (seaweed and others). Where do you think the fish got it? As the fish are bioaccumulators of toxins, an everyday dosage of fish-based products may very well reduce the functionality of your immune system and cell-to-cell signaling systems.
Prevent the cytokine malfunction event (the so-called cytokine ‘storm’) by starting in your daily life to ingest cold-pressed single vegetable oils via salads, to eat seaweed as a seasoning (replace salt) and to consider modifying your diet to include a wider variety of the essential and semi-essential proteins (amino acids) to build healthy, responsive cytokines.
Green tea is a beautiful remineralizer and we all know that we need properly absorbed minerals. Go to your friedly neighborhood TCM practicioner and get the whole leaf green tea; it’s much higher in nutrients than tea bags (very questionable therapeutically) . . . you can brew a strong quart with 1.5 tablespoons. Use a Bodum French Coffee Press or some other brand of high quality. I pour on those same leaves 4 times to make a full gallon of varying strength to use during the day.
Calico-
Olive leaf is available in capsules in the pure plant form. You may chose to take more of it.
Remember when you are trying to get a therapeutic dosage of a plant, that a capsule is only 300–750 MILLIgrams. Very small. How much food do you eat in a meal . . . 12–24 ounces. Some of the more common foods that are also used as supplements could be used in much higher dosages. Consult your doctor.
MaMa-
Eat the cranberries and drink the tea. Or they do make an excellent flavoring if you crush then and let them infuse in the tea a little longer than normal (12–15m instead of 2–8m).
On the oils, almost all major manufacturers place a large notice saying that they are tested and contaminant free. Most of them are misrepresenting the truth. I know that Carlson makes an efficacious and low contaminent fish oil; however, I cannot vouch for any other major retail brand.
MaMa, Thanks again for your support on my conifer topic. Don’t understand the fellows negative input.
North American tradition medicine is difficult to get at. The medicine persons (often female today) are tuned to Earth, kind of difficult to share knowledge with wealth chasers hell bent on resource depletion. The slight climatic change has changed life for treeline and tundra people, intense insects. We don’t find this published in science journals, only by traditional word of mouth, should one know how to ask and be trusted with truth. Loss of insect consuming birds is very alarming. Walk softly with Earth persons, results take time.
There are some good herbal folks in northern parts of Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta. They likly have contacts with traditional medicine practisers. I cannot supply contacts as my files were destroyed in December. The herbal folks can be found on google, search in results.
The universities have dated literature also, they are small lot print runs, titles unpublished, aquired by mailing lists and donations. USA U’s may be a good source also. Its on site time consuming hard copy searching. Don’t be discouraged by missing reports, its often within 6 inches of were its supposed to be filed. You will be in the archive sections.
I hope this is helpful with everyones nature products quest.
NS1- thank you for the recommendations on all fronts.
“consider modifying your diet to include a wider variety of the essential and semi-essential proteins (amino acids) to build healthy, responsive cytokines.”
Other than the ones you mentioned directly, what else would you suggest as being worthwhile to add to your regular diet? I already use flaxseed in our (my families) diet several times a week- ground and whole both.
bush crops- you are very welcome. In most cases, even when people disagree profoundly it is still possible to address each other with respect.
I have found some links to the Cedar info that you suggested investigating. When I’ve read through it I’ll post anything that I think is relevant. I intend to keep looking . Thank you for your suggestions. I hope you find the informaion you are seeking on shikimic acid content of conifers, if I find anything I’ll post it on your thread.
Blood electrification, plasma tube rife, colloidal silver, Sambucol, oscillococcinum, influenzinum, zinc, echinacea,and garlic. All of the above will be used and tested by me for efficacy. A multi-tube Emem set up might be another very good way to go. A few other things such as a type of zapper with a frequency setting designed for white blood cell stimulation etc.
MaMa-
We could get very technical since we’re talking about what science has deemed essential and semi-essential on amino acids, but tonight lets look at some straightforward actions that everyone can take to prepare themselves.
Reduce:
Chicken
/ Processed fats, Grocery store Vegetable Oils, et al / Wheat / Rice / Corn / Soy
Increase:
Ancient Whole Grains
/ Legumes (Beans) / Lentils / Root Vegetables / Leafy Vegetables / Cold pressed single vegetable oils / Seeds (sunflower, pumpkin) / Nuts (almond, et al) / Spices, Spices and more Spices / Green Teas / Herbal Teas
Now we can’t build on all of these tonight, but let’s play the ‘name a grain game’. Whole grains only please.
Teff
/ Amaranth / Kamut / Quinoa / Spelt / Chia / Buckwheat / Millet / Barley / Rye / Oats
Each of these has a rich amino acid profile and some may be prepared in 15 minutes. In fact, most of these can be thrown into a stew or soup and be ready to eat in 30 minutes if you planned ahead and soaked them in water overnight. Most of these do not change the taste of a dish if you use them in moderation. Sneak a little barley into your children’s vegetable soup.
Your body needs more than the 8–9 (according to who you ask) essential amino acids. They invented the term semi-essential amino acids because they forgot some in the first decade of study. Of the two dozen or so named amino acids, we are required (?) to intake at least 12 on a regular basis.
If you mix just about any bean with just about any grain, you’ll get a ‘complete’ protein (all 8 ‘essential’ amino acids). Not all of the items mentioned in the list are actually grains, some of them grow like grain but are the seed heads. They are sold on the grain aisle at your local healthy grocer.
Some of these grains ALONE are considered ‘complete’ proteins. That means that theoretically a human could get their required protein intake on that one grain. As you can imagine, these grains have been high on the list of preparation specialists in the past. Quinoa, Spelt, Chia, and Amaranth are frequently listed as complete proteins. Most of these grains may also be sprouted to concentrate the vitamins. This feature along with extended storage life makes grains an excellent choice for pandemic prep.
Let’s look at one little grain or really a seed head, amaranth. Amaranth seed is high in protein (15–18%) and has triple the fiber of wheat. Amino acids include lysine (reduces viral replication) and methionine. Minerals include calcium (double that of cow milk), iron, potassium, phosphorus, and vitamins A and C. Even has nice, tasty spinach-like leaves if you’d like to grow it.
If you want to upgrade the variety of your amino acid intake now, visit a healthfood store or grocer and ask for Ezekiel Bread (Food for Life). It is a fantastic bread made from a mix of sprouted grains. No flour, no chemicals. Comes frozen. Their buns make great little pizzas for kids. Hint, use lots of olive oil. They even make tortillas that have a complex of 18–20 naturally occuring amino acids.
Grains also have Essential Fatty Acids and usually have a strong and balanced mineral content.
When you’re thinking about getting ready, be sure and put grains on your ‘food for thought’ list.
Wow NS1, Thank you so much! The good news is that we already eat alot of those things- beans and lentils, barley, oats, rye (bread), mostly olive oil in cooking, sometimes sunflower oil (I like it for baking), veggies of all kinds and my hubby and I drink green tea every day (although I’ll look for higher quality as you suggested). It shouldn’t be very difficult to expand on that in our daily meals and we can do the same with the preps. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this, I know it’s late (at least where I am,Canada!).
All of the grains that I mentioned are incredibly deep nourishment tools. The variety that you can get for such a low price is tremendous.
I forgot to mention that you can also get free beneficial bacteria from your whole grains. Put about 3 tablespoons of just about grain in a pint of clean water and let it sit overnight. Sip a few ounces in the morning. Let it again. By day two, it smells and looks funny and is teeming with beneficial bacteria. Sip a few ounces or add it too a smoothie. Continue the exercise for a few more days if you can handle the aroma. Fantastic way to get beneficial colon bacteria if you’re on a budget.
Get some safflower oil as well. The EFAs there are real fat burners; isn’t it funny to eat fat to lose fat.
Where are you in Canada?
In Texas, I’m sitting here with my windows open 78 degrees at 2 in the morning.
Caraway Seed in Rye Bread has any number of compounds with measured anti-viral activity.
http://www.solagran.com/htdocs/english/contdoc/CA_05.11.9.pdf
Ropren is the best option ive seen so far
NS1- I’m in Manitoba. It’s pretty mild here for winter right now, only −6 C, it was −30 C a few days ago.
It is funny to eat fat to lose fat, but I guess it’s just the idea of utilizing the right kind. I still love butter, but we don’t eat alot of it.
Will88, There are testing programs for fish oil and a good number available that are free of contaminants. Here’s an entity devoted to quality and testing:”
Thanks for your post. The problem is that chemicals can be toxic at concentrations far below those that can be tested. Let me explain this a little further because it is an important concept. Traditional toxicology is based on a simple rule, that chemicals are harmful at certain concentrations, below which most would be ‘acceptable’ or ‘safe’. Thus we have all these official data on maximum allowed exposure and so on.
However, the work of scientists like Theo Colborn and others http://www.ourstolenfuture.org/ have in recent years opened up a whole new paradigm in thinking about pollution. Many chemicals (we now call them endocrine disrupting chemicals, of which there are many) can have effects on hormonal systems at extremely low concentrations, the most important effect being on unborn children and the very young. What’s more, their effects at these stages are not just temporary and disappear when there is no exposure, but can be permanent by affecting the ‘settings’ in the developing nervous system. Because fat-soluble substances by their very nature are not excreted through the kidneys, such toxins taken over long periods accumulate.
The problem of endocrine disruptors is so ubiquitous and difficult that scientist and government agencies have in a few short years pushed this to one of the top environmental concerns at the same level of importance as climate change
The other problem with tests is that there are tens of thousands of chemicals that are present in the environment, so any test can only tell you about the substances they are testing for, not everything else.
Having said that, even the distillation process may not be able to get rid of all toxic substances, so I am not suggesting this would solve the whole problem. Just saying that it is not enough to rely on tests to tell you whether something is contaminated.
MaMa, I forget to add a note on Sacred Species. Cedar is Sacred in Western Ontario, Riany River Distritict. The fellow I mentioned originates well east of there, Nippissing District, don’t know the concerned species there. I believe Sweet Grass is fairly universal. WOnt has 4 species of concern.
anon_22,
“The other problem with tests is that there are tens of thousands of chemicals that are present in the environment, so any test can only tell you about the substances they are testing for, not everything else.”
Well, we might as well all just die now because we obviously can’t avoid chemicals in the environment. The best that can be done if we don’t choose that option is to rely on testing and quality control that keeps harmful chemicals at levels that don’t cause detectable harm.
Will88-
Please study anon’s concerned post before making an uninformed response.
Anon22 is illuminating for you some very basic facts to assist the reader’s decision process. You’ve replied with a sweeping and somewhat false generalization that makes it appear you failed to read his post?
We can avoid chemicals. We must not settle for relying on current testing and control procedures that are faulty and inadequate as to the number of substances measured and to the allowable levels.
The average person is carrying a toxic load of more than 100 separate and distinct chemicals. A toxic ooze that would qualify many of us at the levels of a Superfund site.
We need a higher level of vigilence than your sweeping statement is promoting.
anon22-
Keep the solid facts / strong topical analysis coming on this thread particularly.
Endocrine disruption is at the top of my concerns for immune dysregulation for the general population. 2 topics - Avoid and remove the chemicals from our bodies.
Maybe we can address those issues on another thread later?
anonymous
“Please study anon’s concerned post before making an uninformed response.”
My response is very informed. Re: fish oil, I’ve referenced entities that evaluate the contaminant content of various brands. If anyone has a standard that no chemicals be detectable in anything we use, then they’re living on the wrong earth.
One needs to couch their concerns in some degree of reality, and we have to rely on testing services for many things.
I use Carlson’s fish oil, and here’s the statement on their website:
“THIS PRODUCT is regularly tested using AOAC international protocols for potency and purity by an independent, FDA registered laboratory and found to be free of detectable levels of mercury, cadmium, lead, PCB’s and 28 other contaminants.”
Will88- as you pointed out we do not live in a perfect world. The fact that not all companies test carefully and that even the best of them cannot (at present) test for or remove all possible contaminants is important to consider. This way others can be helped to make a fully informed decision based on all the facts.
Thank-you for providing the link re: Carlson’s fish oil. In future, may I suggest using the tinyURL service for long URLs. The link is available just below the posting box on forum pages. You just copy and paste the URL as usual, paste it in at the tinURL site and copy the tiny one for use here or elsewhere. It’s not hard to do, even I figured it out (grin). Long URL’s introduce sidescroll and make extra work for the moderators.
Will-
You’ve made my point beautifully. Please study the information provided for intent before you post uninformed responses meant to suppress discussion.
The toxins cause you to lose your desire for excellence, your ability to strive for perfection even when you know it isn’t attainable, your edge to cut through the dross and find the intention of these people who contribute here.
The toxins that do not seem to concern you could even cause you to state that
“If anyone has a standard that NO chemicals be DETECTABLE (EMPHASIS MINE) in anything we use, then they’re living on the wrong earth. “ in a post precedent to your demonstration that Carlson’s oil is “found to be FREE of DETECTABLE (EMPHASIS MINE)levels of mercury, cadmium, lead, PCB’s and 28 other contaminants.”
Do you care to rephrase or discuss this dichotometric situation?
I too would use Carlson’s product if I were to use fish oil because they are known to be superior to all other fish oils.
But I won’t use them because the tests lack sensitivity and the fish are far too polluted for an informed consumer.
I need a doctor to answer- I saw the movie “At the End of the Spear” recently. This is a true story about isolated Indians in the Amazon jungle in 1955. They had a polio epidemic. That can cause paralysis of the diaphram but of course they couldn’t get respirators. Missionaries recieved nursing advice via a short wave radio. They were told to make see-saws for the sick and keep rocking them. The diaphram moved up and down from gravity and helped the sick to breathe. My big question, since there are not enough respirators to go around in a pandemic, would there be any help in see-sawing to help respiratory distress?
bumped for visibility. NJ Preppie has a great question for any medical professionals out there.
NJ Preppie- I’m no doctor but in referring to my book, “Where There Is No Doctor, a village health card handbook”, by David Werner, under Pneumonia one of the suggestions “to ease cough and loosen the mucus by givng the person plenty of water and having him breathe hot water vapors.” “Postural drainage may also help (see p. 169)”
On page 169 “How to Drain Mucus from the lungs (Postural Drainage)”
When a person who has a bad cough is very old or weak and cannot get rid of the sticky mucus or phlegm in his chest, it will help if he drinks a lot of water. Also do the following:
So body position, from what I have read, can be helpful.
NJ Preppie the action you describe is exactly what my father (a physician) used to do to get newborn puppies breathing if the mother was overwhelmed at the time by a large litter. He would place the newborn on a towel and rock gently, toes to head and back. I thought this had to do with loosening up the fluid in the lungs. It was as close as he could make it to what the mother dog would have done with her tongue to massage the puppy. The purpose you are describing is a little different, but it makes sense. The different from your polio example, though, would be the crap in the respiratory tract. I suppose it may or may not be a good idea to get that rolling as well.
NS1
“You’ve made my point beautifully. Please study the information provided for intent before you post uninformed responses meant to suppress discussion.”
No idea what you’re talking about. Who’s suppressing discussion? Has someone been rendered unable to respond? I hope you wear a N100 mask twenty-four hours per day and quadruple filter everything you ingest. Otherwise it must be petrifying existence.
If some want to spend time worrying about chemicals in food or water, chemicals present in amounts undetectable with todays technology, then I guess everyone needs a good cause. But should a deadly flu pandemic occur, I doubt this will be a concern of very many people. NS1,
I understand exactly what’s been said on this subject, but simply think it’s irrelevant to the purpose of this forum, worrying about undetectable levels of chemicicals.
It’s not that my responses have been “uninformed” as has been stated more than once, but that this worry over undetectable levels of chemicals seems irrelevant on a forum where the main concern is preparation for a potential deadly flu pandemic.
Perhaps I’m not one who’s uninformed.
Should that pandemic occur, I don’t think many will spend time worrying about undetectable levels of chemicals in food or water.
so, do you think a vaporizor, (they seem to be cool steam) with a drape of some sort over the bed would be usefull if some one was developing severe respitory problems?
Will88 and NS1 and others,
I wrote the piece on endocrine disruptors and tests etc not to discount anybody’s opinions, just as a response to Will’s well meaning suggestion to test products for contamination. There are always many sides to an argument and also no foolproof way of doing anything. My outcome is to be as well-informed as I possibly can so that, depending on the circumstances, I can find the more appropriate response. For example, if I run out of omega-brite or whatever purer forms of nutrients, I would go and buy regular off-the-shelf kinds and not worry about it.
I am not an extremist with regards to chemicals etc. We do live in a world where a lot of pollutants cannot be avoided, at least not if you want to live a halfway ‘sane’ or social life. The stuff that we eat which we appear to have a small amount of control over only compose a small proportion of our exposure. And then of course there are the other hazards that we cannot stop at all, like H5N1, or our genetic predispositions which modern science increasingly indicates play a more important part in our chances than we would like.
I get more and more philosophical and more zen the more I learn. We can only do our best, and our best is never going to be enough, but at least it lets us sleep at night.
Hi anon_22!
Today I took a copy of Dr. Woodson’s guide to the owner of an Amish store, I shop at. I have been updating him on the H5N1 and this gentleman is becoming concerned. The Amish use a lot of herbs and homeopathic remedies and this man carries many in his store. I told him I would write and ask you or any of the other helpful docs. here…which of these remedies would you feel would be the most helpful, during an H5 infection? There are so many and I have never used these products. My head just spins after I read about them all. What should I recommend that this store keeper, purchase and try and keep in stock for his community? How and when should these products be used? What about children and pregnant women? This community does vaccinate, so I told him I would update him, if this became available. Thank you for your time.
Will-
You may not be looking at the spot where I’m shining the light?
If we are using something for health, then we want to understand if there are any drawbacks in order to make an informed decision.
Your inflammatory tone leads me to believe that you’d prefer to suppress the information being expressed here?
If we make our bodies work properly with deeper nourishment and toxin avoidance and removal, we’ll all have a better life, PF51 or not.
There is a lot of good information in the Fluwiki Alternative medicine section, including the use of fish oil and borage oil for Acute Respitory Distress — and, very important to my mind, information on side effects of different herbals. Some affect blood pressure, or blood clotting or cell division (the last perhaps not suitable for a cancer patient or a pregnant woman) — these supplements/foods are not “one size fits all” deals. I am reading as much as a can because two family members have allergies, one has asthma, yet another occasional thrombosis. We may end up with a different “plan” for each member of the family.
mom11, Nice to have you back. Some of us were wondering where you have gone :-)
I use various natural and homeopathic remedies from time to time. However, it is very hard to make recommendations about these as anecdotal information or personal impressions can be highly inaccurate. Also, H5N1 is hardly our garden-variety flu, so even things like echinacea which I would normally suggest could have unpredictable results. Unfortunately, at least for herbal remedies, the ones that work are also the ones that may backfire unexpectedly, St John’s wort being a good example. The rules of ‘chemical’ pharmacology actually still apply to herbs, believe it or not!
So the only one that I would suggest with some degree of comfort is sambucol, for which there is quite a lot of info on other threads. And the other would be omega-brite or other kinds of essential fatty acids. The reason why I have a special fondness for this latter group of nutrients is that they appear to act more at the central level, in the neuro-regulatory pathways than in the peripheral immune system. Anything that acts more centrally has more of a modulating function than just strictly causing specific processes to ram up or down. Since in the case of cytokine storm specifically we really do not know whether we want to ram anything up or down, it might be safer to suppy our body with ways to modulate rather than direct responses.
I hope this makes sense. I’m afraid it’s more intuitive than scientific.
Thanks Anon!
This gentleman has Sambuccol in his store. Maybe I told him incorrectly, but I told him to use it to prevent infection, but not during an H5 infection. I had read that it raises cytokine levels. Was I wrong!
Would you take omega-brite during an infection or is this an every day supplement?
I so appreciate your help, I want to help my neighbors get some kind of a plan.
Elderberry is under debate due to its ability to raise the levels of some cytokines. The studies did not measure discretely a wide variety of different cytokines, nor do we KNOW if the form of cytokine increased would play any role in a cytokine dysregulation (H5N1).
Elderberry’s effectiveness against illness stems from its ability to strenghen the cell-to-cell signalling ability of the body so that the immune system can detect viral infection early and bring the correct cytokines to the correct location at the correct time preventing acute infection.
NS1 — I have a question about what you wrote a few days ago:
“Prevent the cytokine malfunction event (the so-called cytokine ‘storm’) by starting in your daily life to ingest cold-pressed single vegetable oils via salads, to eat seaweed as a seasoning (replace salt) and to consider modifying your diet to include a wider variety of the essential and semi-essential proteins (amino acids) to build healthy, responsive cytokines.”
I thought that the 1918 cytokine storms formed in people that had a healthy immune response system - i.e. responsive cytokines. If this is so, wouldn’t trying to get less responsive cytokines be a goal once H5N1 is H2H?
“Would you take omega-brite during an infection or is this an every day supplement?”
It can be taken at any time as long as the person does not have severe gastric upset. There was a study which I can’t quote right now where Omega 3 fatty acids were found to have beneficial effect on ARDS.
NS1,
“Your inflammatory tone leads me to believe that you’d prefer to suppress the information being expressed here?”
It makes no difference to me what people discuss here or anywhere else. But when anyone chooses to characterize opinions contrary to their own somewhat extreme opinions as “uninformed” and “inflammatory”, such unnecessary arrogance needs to answered.
I’ll assure you of one thing, there is now overwhelming agreement that fish oil of one of the most beneficial supplements one can take. Just Google: fish oil benefits. I’ve had occasion to ask three MDs personally about it and they all agree it’s an outstanding supplement. So to pan even so well regarded a brand as Carlson’s because there might be chemicals undetectable with today’s technology is way over the edge.
Most in their adult years would be far better off taking one of those fish oils with no detectable chemicals present, rather than worrying about the possibility of the presence of undetectable chemicals.
Thanks anon_22!
Is this omega-brite safe for children? I might have to give these chicks a boost! Also, is this bought in a health food store? Is omega-brite a name brand product?
Thanks!
Anyone who wishes to use fish oil, and if cost is of no concern, you might want to consider that offered by Dr. Barry Sears, the individual who’s studied and written more about the benefits than perhaps anyone else:
But if that’s more than you want to spend, Carlson’s is very highly regarded and is available at many online vendors.
one study of omega 3 in ARDS
there are also other pharmaceutical grade omega 3 oils so search around.
Yes, it’s safe for children
Craig-
“I thought that the 1918 cytokine storms formed in people that had a healthy immune response system - i.e. responsive cytokines. If this is so, wouldn’t trying to get less responsive cytokines be a goal once H5N1 is H2H? “
Your question is important …
Very important because you seem to be working this all through your mind, because you are ready to make sacrifices and willing take chances with your family’s lives based on expert testimony, because you really want to know the facts.
Your question is also important because it defines how an inference stated as fact can lead to a combination inference that can devolve to an inference cascade.
Let’s start with what we KNOW
1. PanFlu1918 killed a disproportionately large number of teenage and young adult subjects of both genders. 2. Clinical presentations recorded sporadically in 1918 discussed rapid onset pneumonia. Extreme causes in history are often the only cases recorded. 3. Cytokinic Dysregulation occurs in most lab and many clinical settings where mammals are infected with H5N1.
We infer, propose or guess that #3 today is the same mechanism or cause of #2 in 1918. This is a leap. Even today the primary cause of death from the flu is pneumonia (secondary to the virus and sometimes rapid onset). We have no laboratory data from the subjects of 1918 concerning cytokinic activity.
Alongside this proposition, we then create a parallel inference or guess that the age of the dead in 1918 is indicative as to the subjects’ immune status. In fact, we often hear it mentioned that the healthiest subjects died the fastest. In no way do we have information attesting to the proper immune function of those young people who died. In fact, we have just the opposite. To be judged healthy is to have proper immune function. Yet all of these subjects were infected and forthrightly died. A properly functioning immune system would have stopped the virus at the door. Pointedly, not all persons in any age group are fully healthy, so we can’t assume a certain state of health based only on age group. Because there was a change in general age group mortality in 1918 from previous years we begin to create shaky conclusions as to cause. So now we look forward again and try to connect #3 to #1.
Two unsteady and unproven propositions have now combined to form –
“ The most healthy subjects were killed by ‘Cytokine Storm’ in 1918.”
Now comes the cascade –
We apply logic to the puzzle and solve for a solution against the ‘Givens’, the unproven and combinational ‘Givens’. We arrive at a negation of cause argument - If a healthy person is most at risk, perhaps we should create a state of unhealthiness by suppressing our immune systems further.
I am struck numb when I hear that idea.
We do NOT KNOW
How to blunt our immune systems. Any research is limited, is short term or small population and shows clear damaging effects. Down and up regulation is far to complex to arrogantly hope to use a single / dual / quad modality program. Pathways abound and cytokines abound.
How the cell-to-cell signaling systems in the body work. We are still discovering new cytokines, new activities for the ones under the most lengthy study and novel interactions that are sometimes inexplicably oppositional between cytokines.
How exactly the H5N1 virus drives / creates any cytokinic dysregulation. Nor do we know precisely how to modulate it. We don’t KNOW how to precisely start or end a cascade.
If the eventual PF51 (H5N1 HPAI SEH2H) will behave like the 1918 Flu.
That there is any relationship between H5N1 mortality via cytokine dysregulation and PanFlu1918 mortality. Why were 1918 mortality rates so much lower if these pathogens are related in action?
If children and teenagers today are more at risk due to the tending of flocks and of pets.
That today’s age group mortality distribution is truly similar to the PanFlu1918 curve. Even our data here at FluWiki seems to show that all age groups are well-represented.
In summary, we have little evidence and much conjecture that seems to be moving any number of people to consider ‘blunting’ their immune systems. We are all still looking for the answers, so take care not to act only on conjecture or cascading inferences.
I close with a quote from Marco Italy’s post in an earlier forum on the SARS cytokinic dysregulation to age issue.
“The WHO estimates that the case fatality ratio of SARS ranges from 0% to 50% depending on the age group affected: less than 1% in persons aged 24 years or younger; 6% in persons aged 25 to 44 years; 15% in persons aged 45 to 64 years; and greater than 50% in persons aged 65 years and older “. Older people were the most affected.
bumped for visibility. NJ. Preppie has a question about ARDS treatment above.
Mom11, Fish oil is great for children, especially ones with mood disorders. You need to note the amount of EPA in the dosage, since there can be a lot of lesser quality fish oil - be sure it is molecularly distilled since Mercury tends to accumulate in larger fish… The amounts of EPA and DHA are what matter. I go with what the Doctors at MGH and McLean’s suggest for helping alleviate anxiety and depression.
We take 4 Nordic Naturals EPA (distilled, lemon flavored) every night which has a very high amount of EPA -(2 capsules has 850 mg. - we take 1600 each) We keep them frozen since they tend to have less fishy taste that way and they don’t cause you to burp them up as much…. But they have been an important treatment for anxiety and depression, along with a multitude of other positives…
The Omega Brites which Andy Stoll developed are a little stronger in terms of EPA, but they are very fishy (smell) and my kids won’t take them… Andy uses much higher dosages, but we have found that 1800 to 2400 a day works well….
Hope this helps….
The SARs ages and the current H5N1 fatalities are quite different. Age 25 and under are 70% of the WHO fatalities, I thought.
“NJ. Preppie – at 10:38 I need a doctor to answer- I saw the movie “At the End of the Spear” recently. This is a true story about isolated Indians in the Amazon jungle in 1955. They had a polio epidemic. That can cause paralysis of the diaphram but of course they couldn’t get respirators. Missionaries recieved nursing advice via a short wave radio. They were told to make see-saws for the sick and keep rocking them. The diaphram moved up and down from gravity and helped the sick to breathe. My big question, since there are not enough respirators to go around in a pandemic, would there be any help in see-sawing to help respiratory distress? “
The problem with H5N1 is not that the diaphram muscles can’t pull air into the lungs (I’m not doc; just read a lot) the problem with pneumonia is the lungs get fluid in them (no air tranfer) and, with cytokine storm or ARDS the lung cells get damaged, clogged with debris from fighting the virus and bleeding/fluid leakage from damaged tissue (no air exchange possible) and the lack of O2 to the body systems damages the organsm, and the H5N1 attacks more systems of the body than the lungs anyway. Even now thre is not good success rate with patients who have ARDS. A nutritional preventative help, if there is one, would be more available to the public than any way to make destroyed lung tissue function, if a case gets that bad.
:-/
I plan to rely heavily on both shiitake, reishi and cordyceps mushroom extracts. I will take these in the form of whole (cooked) mushrooms (shiitake), tea form (blend) and capsule form (all three). Reishi derivatives in particular “compare favorably with Prednisone but without negative side effects. (Stavinoha et al., 1990, 1996; Stavinoha, 1997). This and other mushrooms lessen inflamation (Ukai et al. 1983; Hobbs, 1995; Lin et al, 1993; Mizuno, 1995) quoting from pg. 14 of MycoMedicinals, An Informational Treatise on Mushrooms, by Paul Stamets.
Anyone wanting to learn more about antivirals in mushrooms might appreciate this website: http://www.fungi.com/info/articles/antiviral.html.
There is a very general assumption or theory that underlies the benefits research shows can be realized from Omega3. Food processing and other changes in how our food is supplied or obtained has caused significant changes in what we eat in the past century or two. Some of the changes most often cited are the use of refined sugar and flour which force the body to handle highly refined amounts of carbohydrate not handled by our ancestors for tens of thousands of years before. Another change is the shift in the ratio of Omega6 to Omega3 EFAs in our diets.
Up until the early 20th century, the ratio of Omega6 to Omega3 is believed to have been about 2 to 1, or even 1 to 1. But changes in our diets and the diets of the animals we use for food have shifted that ratio from 2 to 1 or so, to 20 to 1 or higher, Omega6 to Omega3. A number of scientists believe this shift is the cause of many chronic and acute diseases that have become more common in the past century, including heart disease, cancer,and mental or emotional conditions including ADD and depression. And they believe moving that ratio back by either reducing our intake of Omega6, or increasing Omega3, or preferably both, can yield significant health benefits.
Mass production of beef and poultry changed the food of those animals from grass and other primarily vegetable foods to corn and soy and other grain or bean sources. I don’t have this before me, but grass fed beef has a near equal ratio of Omega6 to Omega3 EFAs, whereas grain feed has around 20 to 1 Omega6 to Omega3. Similar shifts occurred in poultry and eggs. We now see eggs sold that are high in Omega3, and also grass fed beef is available at a premium price. We also see grain fed, pond raised fish where their normal high Omega3 content of fish is lowered and they contain more Omega6.
But it’s believed that increasing our Omega3 intake can yield significant health benefits. Thus the mushrooming use of fish oil supplements, and the emphasis on salmon as a healthy food, and the introduction of high Omega3 eggs and increased offerings of grass fed beef and other high Omega3 products.
This all falls under the “eat like our ancestors” belief some have, that changes in our diets, and how food is produced and prepared, has caused several departures from the type food eaten by our ancestors for thousands of years, and those changes have been detrimental to our health. The huge amount of refined sugar and flour, and the dramatic shift to increased Omega6 and decreased Omega3 are three of ther changes many consider most harmful.
And, Omega3 has demonstrated anti-inflammatory properties which result in its being considered a possible benefit in bird flu and other inflammatory diseases.
Omega3 obtained from fish oil ranges in price from the supplements available at Wal-Mart, Costco and many other sources, to the pharmacetical grade offerings discussed here that can cost 3 to 10 times the lower priced products.
Mom11, on the homeopathic side, the most straightforward approach he can take is to have plenty of Oscillococcinum on hand. If he wants to do more than that, I discussed the options early in this thread. If the community is that familiar with homeopathy, they will know how to take a single vial of Oscillo and stretch it out for their family.
Will-
Excellent article on eating like our ancestors. Let’s highlight again that animal husbandry that allows an animal to eat its natural diet will almost always produce an animal that has a much more balanced Omega profile. There can be no argument after reviewing the evidence that naturally fed animals produce a safer and more sustaining meat product.
That being said, one caveat is this.
If you chose to eat beef and are searching for grass-fed beef, talk to the rancher himself. Much of what is being sold as grass-fed goes from the rancher to a conventional feed lot for 2–6 weeks prior to slaughter. When this grass-feed animal (balanced Omega6-Omega3 (2:1)) leaves the feed lot for slaughter, the Omega tilt can move all the way back to severe imbalance, Omega6-Omega3 (20:1), negating most of the benefits of having been grass-fed.
Some of my colleagues chose a local Texas rancher-Ted Slanker for their grass-fed beef. I’ve never tried it, but the rancher makes a convincing, if somewhat, forthright case. If you must eat beef, chose low toxicity and high nutrition organisms for ingestion.
NS1,
I mostly eat split fryer breasts, canned (wild) salmon and lesser amounts of beef. Once in a while, I just have a craving for beef, but it’s a minor part of my protein intake. When an under construction Whole Foods Market opens near me, I do plan to try their bison products which have been recommended by someone knowledgeable in the health foods industry.
The current grass fed beef, grass fed butter and other such products cost three to four times the grain fed (and hormone enhanced) products. I often think how I grew up eating grass fed beef, raw milk and butter made from it, and poultry and eggs from real free range chickens that roamed all around, and home grown vegetables, though they weren’t totally organic, and also the same brand of canned salmon I use now. It’d cost a small fortune to buy only the type foods I ate until about age eighteen. Didn’t live on a farm exactly, but both parents had and they continued producing most of our food on about 30 acres, and piddled around with beef cattle.
I do believe that the introduction of such huge amounts of refined carbs into our diet via sugar in all its various forms, and also refined white flour, along with the dramatic change in the ratio of Omega6 to Omega3 EFAs due to changes in what food animals are fed, all these things have combined to contribute significantly to many diseases, both life threatening and merely chronic but bothersome.
But it is
Anon_22!
Thanks so much for the info! It is a great help. Monday, I will visit my Amish friend with treatment options. A little at a time…these people are wonderful neighbors and actually a hugh part of our community. Won’t it be funny if they have the earliest and best community plan. I think they will put together somemthing very helpful for their own families, and they seem to be the only ones around here that care!
For fish oil, I take Coremega which is fish oil in little squeeze packets that you squeeze on a spoon and eat. It tastes like orange pudding - very good. It’s more expensive but I found that other types of fish oil, burped up on me and the taste of the burp was disgusting.
Hi Calico!
Thanks! I’ve read about Oscillococcinum. Would you use that as a preventative or treatment? I’ve seen it on the shelves of health food stores. How about the vial of Oscillo? Where would you get that and how would you use it to treat an entire family?
Thanks!
will-
Cost of eating right is outrageouse. Cost of loss of ability and erosion until early dyfunction and death is more outrageous.
We’d love to go back to the farm.
will-
Sounds like you’ve been following the trends in food science for awhile? What was your impetus?
NS1,
“We’d love to go back to the farm.”
Actually, I’m back. Worked away for about 25 years and am now back where I grew up, after settling with siblings on parents’ estate.
Felicia!
Oh that stuff sounds so much better. No fish burbing! Mine don’t like fish and neither do I, so we sure don’t want to burb something we hate! Orange pudding, that will work! Also, seems like it would work better if we were going to use it on a sick child.
I’m looking into this for mine and am going to share it with the Amish. They have lots of children, just like I do!
Will-
Congratulations!
‘settling with siblings’ - hope this left them with an open invitation to return if we have PF51?
NS1,
“Sounds like you’ve been following the trends in food science for awhile? What was your impetus?”
I just picked an Adelle Davis book up in a bookstore in the 70s and have been keeping up with such ever since. Probably picked up the book instinctively thinking we really might be what we eat.
NS1,
“‘settling with siblings’ - hope this left them with an open invitation to return if we have PF51?”
They aren’t that badly situated as it is, smaller towns but not that much land, either. Not bad areas to ride it out if they have any preps at all, actually small towns forty or so miles from where they work. Haven’t discussed the possible pandemic yet, but there’d have to be some understandings if any came back, lol.
Diet For A Small Planet?
rr-
Seminal work! Robbins of Baskin and Robbins fame explores why he left animal foods for nature and provides a limited treatise on factory farming.
Kloss- Back to Eden also for reference.
Mom11, Oscillo is packaged as single dose vials, usually 3 or 6 per package. Each of those vials is really a bit more than you would need for one dose.
At any rate, empty the contents of a vial (or half a vial) into a bottle of water, having poured off enough of the water so you can shake it vigorously. After the granules dissolve, pound the bottle against your other palm 40 times. A dose is now a sip, or about a teaspoon. You must shake vigorously again, at least 10 times, before EACH dose. If the water starts running low, just add more from another bottle, but don’t add any more granules. So, to share with friends, you could split that bottle into several bottles and reconstitute with more water.
If you had a package with you but no water yet, then take the first dose as dry granules, but make up a wet dose for future dosings.
What is important, since it is homeopathic, is not to put any other food or drink in your mouth for at least 15 minutes before and after each dose. You don’t even need to swallow it - what you need will be absorbed through the mucous linings of your mouth.
Oscillo is best used at the very start of the flu when you are not altogether sure that is what you have. I carry it with me to be sure. It might have some use prophylatically if you thought you had been exposed and really were coming down with the flu.
Oh Calico! I’m so sorry, I just realized you had already posted all this and you wrote it all again. I read it, but it didn’t click in my small brain that it was the same thing, you’d already posted. Thanks! Will definately bookmark it.
I haven’t seen this in the health food stores or vitamin-supplement stores. Can it be ordered online? Maybe, the Amish can order it.
Thank you so much!
Will-
We’ll all have to start putting PF51 clauses in our contracts now, so an agreement will be in place in case of pandemic.
mom11- I just wanted to add a point about taking homeopathic medication. As Calico said, you need to take with a ‘clean’ mouth. No food or drink other than plain water, but also no tobacco! If I remember correctly your husband is a smoker, so no smoking before or after your medication either (my doc recommends to avoid smoking for 1 hour before and 1 hour after). Also, if the Amish in your community sell homeopathic medication there might be a local physician as well. You could encourage them to discuss the BF issue with the physician, that would mean there would also be someone local to provide consultation in the event of pandemic to recommend the appropriate remedy- maybe it could even be done by phone (if they had a selection of remedies handy?)
Hi MaMa!
Yes! My husband does smoke, but I doubt he would try a homepathic remedy anyway. We will! That stinker comes into my house, it is going to be an all out war. At that point, what would we have to lose!
The Amish rely heavily on homeopathic and natural remedies, but the people here also use traditional medicine as well. I don’t know if any docs. here prescribe it, but there may be some NP’s that do. I was trying to put together a list of supplies the Amish could order and have in stock if bf hits. Since this isn’t our yearly flu, I knew they may need things, they didn’t usually use or quantities they might not always carry. I’m just so happy that this gentleman asks me questions, so I can get them the info. they need to have a plan. He was asking about what treatments there were. They don’t use phones, however.
My kids take OmegaBrite. Dr. Hallowell recommended it to us. My kids had been on coromega, Nordic Naturals, and Carlsons but we did not like to aftertaste. Dr. Hallowell wanted us to use the higher EPA in OmegaBrite. It is working for us. My son and I take the capsules and my daughter just started on OmegaBrite Kidz. She takes is a 1/4 teaspoon. My mom takes it for her shoulder. I think people should read about it and try different brands if they can. The review mentioned before of Omega-3 at ConsumerLabs.com. is good.
rose sg - nordic naturals has a lemon flavored one with a lot fo EPA - 900mg in two capsules. if you take them frozen they are easier to handle. We take them right before bed. Has Ned suggessted Inositol to you? It is for anxiety/adhd…
Hi Owl - The Nordic Naturals capsules are too big for us. The OmegaBrite capsules are small which I really like. Also with Nordics the conc is less so you have to take more DHA to get the EPA. That extra DHA seems to have a negative effect on our moods. Have you found that? EPA with a little DHA seems the most effective for us. I think that is why when we switched over to OmegaBrite we felt better. We take it in the morning. My youngest just sarted the new childrens liquid. I tried Inositol several years ago mixed in OJ but did not have much effect for my family. I know some people really like it.
mom11, if you prepare a wet dose, and make sure he has only a sip, you might be able to get a homeopathic remedy into him without his realizing your treachery! Ideally, it is taken on a neutral mouth, but if the right remedy, it may work anyway, so worth a try!
Some of my friends are coming down with the flu. Some are asking for suggestions, some are not. Doesn’t much matter. What I could suggest they needed to already have on hand anyway. It’s just such a disconnect. How can people be at all concerned about bird flu and what to take and yet completely ignore a Type A seasonal flu?
Didn’t realize this discussion was going on and pulled these from the homeopathy thread: I am resurrecting this thread to ask about a study shared with me by an RN who also trained as a MD then switched directions (because of a personal health experience) and went on to study acupunture in Beijing. I can’t find it on-line…it is from ‘The Journal of Traditional Eastern Health & Fitness’ Winter 2005–2006 and reports:
“Hypericin…has cured bird flu-stricken poultry in lab test, …which is expected to help develop new drugs to fit humans.”
The drug, developed by the Chinese Academy of Agricultural Sciences, “cured all poultry infected by the deadly H5N1 avian flu in the experiment.” It goes on to take about Tamiflu, “which contains another traditional Chinese medicine, Star anise.”
I read the homeopathy pages on the resources links with interest. Does anyone know anything about the traditional healing affects of Hypericin or Star Anise. I plan to research this a bit on-line myself but am curious if anyone out there has knowledge.
Hypericum perforatum, St. John’s Wort. I guess if I decide to give it a go, I won’t be depressed about the Panflu… Research Papers http://tinyurl.com/ns6he
St. John’s Wort has a long history of research as an anti-viral, and scientists have tried to separate the active ingredient (Hypericum) out and put it in pill form (this is where the money is). They have discovered that this does have anti-viral properties, but they have not successfully been able to separate out the Hypericum. The plant can suppress viral growth in cells, but can one get enough of it in ones body to make a difference? http://tinyurl.com/m7s8n
http://tinyurl.com/nd5ye from the USDA agricultural research service.
“Technical Abstract: Hypericum perforatum L. produces both hyperforins, a family of antimicrobial acylphloroglucinols, and hypericins, a family of phototoxic anthraquinones exhibiting anti-microbial, anti-viral, and anti-herbivore properties in vitro. To determine whether these secondary metabolites are part of the plant defense system, we used meristem cultures to assess the effects of exposure to exogenous application of the abiotic elicitors, methyl jasmonate and salicylic acid. Levels of hypericins in plant tissue increased in response to both elicitor treatments; total hypericin levels increased as much as 3.3 times control levels when treated with 200 uM methyl jasmonate treatment for 14 days. Increased hyperforin concentrations were detected when plantlets were treated with 1 mM salicylic acid or 50 uM methyl jasmonate. For assessing responses to a biotic elicitor, greenhouse-grown plant materials were inoculated with the plant pathogen, Colletotrichum gloeosporioides. Levels of hypericins increased twice as much as the control when inoculated with 1 x 104 spores/mL; higher doses of spores overwhelmed the plant defenses. The elevation of hypericins and hyperforin in response to abiotic and biotic elicitors suggests that these secondary metabolites are components in the inducible plant defense responses of H. perforatum.”
“I read the homeopathy pages on the resources links with interest. Does anyone know anything about the traditional healing affects of Hypericin or Star Anise. I plan to research this a bit on-line myself but am curious if anyone out there has knowledge.” As I stated on the other thread, star anise is the basis for Tamiflu.
Calico – at 08:58 Yes, that is clearly stated see Montanan – at 08:41 “It goes on to take about Tamiflu, “which contains another traditional Chinese medicine, Star anise.” “ Does anyone know anything about the use of star anise itself? Rather than its pharmocological counterpart?
And the question that the above articles raises about St. John’s Wort - could you take enough to have an antiviral effect or do you have to take a distillation of just the hypericum? Which, if the chinese have it right, is as effective as Tamiflu?
follow-up.. http://tinyurl.com/ela38
“Although star anise could have some direct antiviral effects, these have not been proven. One cannot assume that because Tamiflu is made from star anise, that star anise has the same properties as Tamiflu - it does not. At this time, I would put star anise on the ‘interesting’ list, but don’t have evidence that it would be effective in treating H5N1 avian flu or any other serious disease.”
sorry, Montanan, I was reading too quickly. ;^)
F.Y.I. All
What about Anti-Viral aromatherapy oils (inhaled…various methods)? Available from Dreaming Earth Botanicals in North Carolina (on the web).
P.S. My guy just ran a Lab Test in Microbiology class at college here… The ONLY thing that killed everything in petri dishes, was the Grapefruit Seed Extract (NOT Bleach…or apparently Hydrogen Pyroxide…). It was a 33% formula-diluted. So we went online to get a whole bottle of 66%… use as a general disinfectant before re-entering the house from anywhere. :)
Have a look at Biota code BTA on the australian stock exch or google biota holings for info from there web page. They made the very first neuradimase inhibitor - relenza and are in human trials with the first third generation antiviral(long acting neuradimaze inhibitor)a version of relenza that only has to be taken once per week instead of daily - also looks like relenza may be the antiviral of choice soon as bird flu is becomming resistent to tamiflu in some studies while relenza has no resistence and several other advantages.once inhaled it goes straight tothe primary site of infection the lung and is fully active within minutes (very important when time is of the essence in trying to stop your immune system overreacting to the bird flu)also i read a new report today which has found that the virus gets deep into the alvioli of the lung - that would make relenza more effective than tamiflu which has been grabing all the haed lines to date i also note that the U.S govt has up’ed it’s order for relenza today - so they might finnally be starting to balance things out instead of relying so heavily on tamiflu. Some scientists are also suggesting that combining the two may be the answer but do we have time to get thru all the trials before this thing hits.
relenza has major advantages, but is confined to the lung whereas tamiflu hits the other organs that H5N1 does (relenza does not).
Any futher suggestions about stocks will be removed as spam.
sorry it was the only link to their web page and info i could think of
remember the lung is the primary site of infection and other organs seem to fail once the lung has first been compromised and the immune response storm is triggered - another advantage over tamiflu is that it is not going to be vomited up or malabsorbed once the GI tract is in a state of stress further down the progression trail of this disease.To date most patients in vietnam/ indonesia have had the benefit of first world treatment even though they are not first world countrys.apparently kept alive with both ventilators and kidney dialyis according to the physicians who treated them. My point is that these luxuries will run out very quickly once (if a sever strain pandemic breaks )- even in the USA , so the only sure way to protect yourself/family is early isolation and wait for a vaccine 4- 12 mths and if that fails and you get caught out - anti virals the earlier the better. The quicker they get to the site of infection the greater chance you have of stopping viral replication in the cell(thats what tamiflu and relenza are designed to do) and if you can slow viral replication then you have a lesser chance of a big overreaction in your immune response which leads to organ shut down and excess fluid in the lung -death The anti virals are only effective if taken within the first 48 hrs - but the sooner the better. if we are lucky an instant - cheap i.d test kit on h5n1 infection will be available before the pandemic starts - so we’ll know if we should take the anti virals early rather than waiting for symptoms to develope to a point of severity which i think has happenen in most cases to date. - and with limited supplys available -it would be nice to know you had,nt blown you stash on the common cold or regular flu
dr birdbrain – at 22:25
you got the benefit of the doubt.;-)
Your points are valid. it might be that we need a relenza/tamiflu combo. peramivir (IV and not yet approved) might be even better. But not practical for the reasons you raise.
Does anyone know if taking ephedra would help in reducing respiratory effects?
Abstract of an article found on Pubmed/Medline
1: J Infect Chemother. 2006 Apr;12(2):73–9. Related Articles, Links
Inactivation of influenza A virus by gentian violet (GV) and GV-dyed cotton cloth, and bactericidal activities of these agents.
Nagayama A.
Department of Microbiology and Immunology, School of Medicine, Fukuoka University, 7–45–1 Nanakuma, Fukuoka, 814–0180, Japan, nagayama@fukuoka-u.ac.jp.
Recently we have heard warnings of an outbreak of a highly pathogenic avian influenza virus (H5N1). Although, to prevent such infections we must prepare anti-viral drugs and type-specific vaccines against influenza, we need various simple and effective protection methods, such as the use of face masks for public health. Also, in any consideration of bacterial infections, methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (MRSA), vancomycin-resistant Enterococci (VRE), and multidrug-resistant Pseudomonas aeruginosa (MDRP) also pose serious concerns which must be addressed. I examined the antiviral activity of gentian violet (GV) and GV-dyed cloth against the influenza A (H1N1) virus. Time-kill studies were carried out, and the virus titer was determined based on the 50% tissue culture infective dose (TCID(50)). The minimum inhibitory concentrations (MICs) of GV against bacteria were also determined, and the killing activities of the GV-dyed cloth were judged from viable cell counts. GV immediately killed the influenza A virus and this was confirmed by electron microscopy. Moreover, cloth dyed with a combination of GV and copper showed not only excellent antiviral activity but also prominent bactericidal activities.
PMID: 16648946 [PubMed - in process]
Librarian - interesting on GV. IT is not clear how it would be used however. I had to use it when one of my newborns and I had a nasty thrush infection from nursing. Boy was his mouth purple! It stains like you can’t beleive. It is also very hard to find - mypharmacy had to order it from a supplier and took two days. But it did clear it up without having to take other meds.
LauraB,
That’s funny, I had to use it for the same thing. My nursing bras were all purple too. I was wondering how much would be needed. If a tiny bit in the mouth (and throat) works on Thrush in a newborn, I am wondering if it would work in the same way on H5N1. I didn’t have any trouble getting it, but it probably depends on where you live and how large the pharmacy resources are. I might get some and keep it on hand, just in case I find out later how to use it. Problem is, it can be poisonous if enough is taken. Got to be careful with it.
Pau d’arco (taheebo) sounds like an excellent antiviral to use as a prevention when bird flu is on the horizon. It can be taken together with oregano, garlic and caprylic acid (all anti-fungal, antiviral and safe). I think I will take this combination along with low dose echinacea starting middle of September when flu season starts. I will also take vitamin D 2,000–4,000. I will measure my PH and keep it slightly alkaline because viruses replicate in an ACIDIC body and don’t do so well in an alkaline body. I will drink alkaline water and eat plenty of raw fruits and vegetables, and whole grains. I will keep my meat consumption very low as meat, sugar products, and processed foods create a PH acidic body. I will attempt to get a tan this summer to increase my vitamin D.
PanicStricken,
The combination of garlic and pau d’arco may take care of your social distancing needs all by themselves. My experience with pau d’arco is through mate’ teas and they have an interesting effect on the digestive system.
The report, entitled ‘The Pivotal Role for Natural Products in Countering an Avian Influenza Pandemic’ was launched today at the Institute of Physics, Portland Place London WC1, having first been submitted to the World Health Organisation on March 27th 2006.
The report focuses on the key nutrients zinc, vitamin C, and vitamin A as primary interventions for the prevention and treatment of human H5N1 influenza infection and its complications, and has been authored by four leading scientists and doctors in the fields of nutritional medicine and health.
PROTOCOLS In the event of infection by H5N1, the sooner the recommended therapeutic dose levels are taken, the better. A subsequent reduction in bowel tolerance indicates that the virus is being overcome, and is generally accompanied by clinical improvement. This simple, practical dose-finding procedure must be well understood as it is of paramount importance for achieving the maximum therapeutic effect as quickly as possible.
The BSEM and ANH advise the following three protocols:
Protocol 1 - Prophylaxis; this should ideally be initiated at least one month before exposure to the H5N1 virus. In the event of a pandemic, it is anticipated that the majority of the population in most countries will have around this amount of notice as a minimum prior to being at extreme risk of infection.
Protocol 2 - Self-treatment; this should be initiated at the first sign or symptom of a possible viral infection.
Protocol 3 - Medical treatment; this protocol is reserved for serious or rapidly deteriorating cases, requiring intravenous therapy.
Protocols 1 and 2 would be initiated and continued by members of the public without the need for medical involvement. The necessary nutritional supplements should be obtained by members of the public in advance and kept in readiness at their home, school and/or work-place. Protocol 3 should only be necessary if Protocols 1 and/or 2 have not been initiated in time, or in particularly vulnerable individuals.
As a general note, child dosages specified refer to children under 6 years, including infants. Older children should receive the adult dosages.
Protocol 1 - Prophylaxis
Nutrient
Adult (per 24 h)
Child (per 24 h)
Zinc
25 mg
10 mg
Vitamin C
3 g
1 g
Vitamin A:
or
Beta-carotene:
20,000 IU (6mg)
60 mg
10,000 IU (3mg)
30 mg
Notes:
1. These amounts are safe to take continuously for many months.
2. Vitamin C should be taken in several, divided doses per day (e.g. 500 mg [0.5 g] or 1000 mg [1 g] each dose). Occasionally, some people may develop loose bowels at the above dosages, and should reduce the dose accordingly.
3. Pregnant women and those who may be pregnant should use beta-carotene (or mixed carotenoids containing beta-carotene at specified dose) not vitamin A.
4. Where necessary, a single oral vitamin A dose of 1,000,000 IU for an adult, 500,000 IU for a child can be used, which will be protective for at least 6 months.
Protocol 2 - Self-treatment
Nutrient
Adult (per 24 h)
Child (per 24 h)
Zinc
50 mg
20 mg
Vitamin C
Starting dose: 6 g, then every 3 hours or less to bowel tolerance
Starting dose: 2 g, then every 3 hours or less to bowel tolerance
Vitamin A
or
Beta-carotene:
40,000 IU (12 mg)
120 mg
20,000 IU (6 mg)
60 mg
Notes:
1. These amounts are safe to take for up to one month.
2. Pregnant women and those who may be pregnant should use beta-carotene (or mixed carotenoids containing beta-carotene at specified dose) not vitamin A.
3. If a single large vitamin A dose has been given as in Protocol 1 Prophylaxis, no further vitamin A should be taken.
Vitamin C and bowel tolerance:1. Vitamin C should be taken every 3 hours or more frequently (e.g. hourly) throughout the day, and optionally through the night (sustained-release forms of vitamin C can be helpful before bed).
2. If loose stools develop at this dose, it should be reduced gradually until the loose stools stop.
3. As long as there are no loose stools, increase each 3-hourly dose consecutively by 2 g until loose stools do occur (bowel tolerance), then continue as for 2. above.
Protocol 3 - Medical treatment
Nutrient
Adult (per dose)
Child (per dose)
Zinc
40 mg
20 mg
Vitamin C
Minimum: 50 g
Maximum: 200 g
Minimum: 20 g
Maximum: 80 g
Vitamin B12
Minimum: 20 mg
Maximum: 100 mg
Minimum: 10 mg
Maximum: 50 mg
Notes:
1. This regime is designed for intravenous infusion, starting at the minimum doses above, all three nutrients being delivered together. 2. Dilution of the minimum doses in less than 1000 mL of sterile water or N saline will be hyperosmolar, which may compromise access to that vein. 3. The IV line should be maintained constantly, and the nutrients infused continuously to maintain optimum plasma levels. 4. The first dose should be administered over 6 hours. 5. Thereafter the dose should be administered over every 24 hours, continuing on immediately. 6. Oral treatment should be initiated or continued if at all possible, as per Protocol 2 above, but the injected dose remains the same in either case.
Zinc: The dose should not be increased beyond the above. Vitamin C:
1. The maximum dose above will require dilution in 3000mL to avoid hyperosmolarity (vitamin C is the major osmolar component by far). 2. Dose should be increased if the case deteriorates.
Vitamin B12:
1. B12 treatment is directed specifically at cytokine storm, and can be increased independently of vitamin C. 2. Administration is preferable as methylcobalamin or hydroxocobalamin, but cyanocobalamin is otherwise acceptable.
Each of these nutrients will be beneficial on its own, and if not all are available, those that are should still be administered.
here is the ANH/BSEM report (pdf file).
The ANH remains in active dialogue with the WHO on this. The hope is that the recommendations will be trialled in a clinical setting, and their worth – or otherwise – proven.
If the SHTF sooner rather than later, then at least these provide some hope and guidance for prevention/ treatment for those persons/ countries that cannot access vaccines (probably most of us) or anti-virals.
Sorry the link did not work http://www.alliance-natural-health.org/_docs/ANHwebsiteDoc_232.pdf
the whole document intro, credentials and correspondance is at http://www.flutrackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5444
This is the product of quite a long perseverant work.
Melanie-Can’t say pau d’arco and garlic have any especially negative effect on my bowels. Maybe the mate tea is the culprit?
Not sure if I’ve seen Zinc gluconate mentioned here (Cold eeze). I’ve tried a lot of other so called remedies in my life-all with very poor results. With scepticism I tried Cold-eeze about 7 or so years ago (at the advice of a surgeon) and have had very incredible results. They also seem to have a fair amount of clinical documentation which I don’t see too much of with “other” remedies.
http://www.coldeeze.com/clinical_info/studies.html
I have experienced what I can only describe as “aborting the viral illness” in its tracks. On several different obvious flu prodromal episodes I have taken Coldeeze (albeit more than the recommended dosage)and woken the next AM with no trace of the body aches, headache, scratchy throat or sniffles of the night before). The key is early treatment during the prodromal period.
Check out the studies, pretty impressive. I have heard that it doesn’t agree with some peoples stomaches. I don’t care for it either really but I figure it’s like taking cod liver oil only this actually works.
Calico, you wrote that if trying to stretch the remedy by “wet-dosing” that someone should take only one sip. Is that because it becomes more potent that way? Could the water and the fizzing properties of the “Airborne” remedy be what seems to make it so beneficial?
I also tried Zicam nasal swabs and have been impressed.
Hi Laura,
I don’t consider Zicam to be particularly homeopathic, it is too weakly potentized (picking up a comment on another thread). However, it may still be effective. I have had only so-so results from the Zicam nasal spray. Maybe I should try the swabs.
Airborne isn’t homeopathic - to be homeopathic requires a series of dilutions AND very vigorous shakings at each step. However, I do think Airborne helped me fight off a cold. It does seem to be a good combination of ingredients. The fizzing may serve a purpose, I just don’t think it is comparable.
As far as taking a homeopathic remedy as a wet dose, one dose is whatever you take at one time, which only needs to be a sip. In other words, if you took half a sip an hour apart that would be two doses.
The part about stretching is that once a pellet has been diluted in water you can start a large series of more bottles of water by adding a teaspoon in each and shaking again. Then you could take those bottles…
For the potencies most available commercially, this might not be a bad idea for bird flu. Each dilution/shaking step will make it stronger. If we are stuck with a flu strain where the symptoms get really severe really quickly you would want to start with a relatively strong remedy. There is still the issue of choosing which to start from, but I have upgraded my most likely 30C remedies to 200C. I hope that is strong enough.
I have used the swabs and spray and went (quickly) back to the lozenges. I have to admit that I have seen the “miraculous” results when I sucked down 10 or 15 of the things before going to bed. On 5 or 6 prodromal episodes over the last 7 or so years.
Please remember that the miraculous results of natural products are because we are using the tools, the plants, the minerals and the nutrients that are readily available and that work with our bodies to accomplish proper functioning. So its not really a miracle, its common sense and was day-to-day knowledge of every greatgrandmother.
I consider it a miracle when a synthetic drug works without damaging a body system.
Hi guys- I just started fermenting 3 kgs of sauerkraut. It is cold here now so I imagine that the fermentation should take longer than a month (the ususal time). The good thing is the Kraut will be alive- sauerkraut in cans or bottles has been pasteurized and is sterile.
NS1- have you considered the fact that almost everybody was living the oragnic, home remedy lifestyle in 1918? There were still 50 to 100 million deaths. The inuits and Western Samoans had diets very high in unpolluted fish oils and yet suffered amongst the highest death rates on Earth in 1918.
Clark-
You’re right on target with the Kraut. That sounds great!
I’ve thought about those facts about organic living in the decade around the earlier pandemic frequently. I’ve mused about it on the wiki in the early days, but don’t have time to reference it now. I do believe that the count was closer to 100 million based on the aggregations that I’ve followed. That’s a pretty low CFR considering what we are seeing today. The virus was very strong then and people’s bodies were only just starting to be genetically weakened and hampered by decreased nourishment.
Nutrition is only one facet.
Today the virus is stronger, I think, and people’s bodies are weaker.
I’m still exploring the multi-factorial activity and trying to weight the correlations.
One option may be to explore continental aromatherapy, a very different animal than what the Anglo Saxon world views as aromatherapy.
Available at Amazon: What to Do When Antibiotics Don’t Work! How to Stay Healthy and Alive When Infections Strike 0972019405 Advanced Aromatherapy: The Science of Essential Oil Therapy (Paperback) 0892817437
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: These ideas are pure speculation. IN NO WAY should they be construed as medical or safety advice. Consult specialists in these areas for advice.
Last fall I came down with the nastiest flu bug EVER. I picked it up while flying to Maine to visit my son. I missed a full two weeks of work and I struggled with getting over it for a month. I had an EXTREMELY SORE THROAT (full dose oregano oil was only midly effective) and salt water rinse helped some too, diarrhea, nausea, fever, pain and even the red, pus eyes (washing with fennel tea cleared this up fairly quickly)! I swear, you would think it was H5N1, I had all the symptoms. Sambucol was useless. Echinacea, burdock and slippery elm helped the most. Cayenne pepper was exceptionally helpful. I literally lived on homemade chicken, vegetable broth laced with garlic, cayenne pepper and tablespoons of coconut oil for almost 3 weeks. During the day, life was just barely bearable. Nights were pure h*ll. I couldn’t breathe (cytokine storm). I had to ‘sleep’ sitting up if I was able to sleep at all. I was blowing my nose continuously and then developed a RAW, red nose from the very acidic mucous.(Mucous was a brilliant YELLOW). A steamer in the bedroom helped some. An open window at night also helped me to breathe. Then I discovered BENEDRYL! Amazing relief! Unbelievable! But my problems didn’t end there. Now I was able to breathe but I developed a tickle throat that had me coughing so much I was unable to fall asleep. The coughing spasms were horrendous. Benelyn was USELESS. Lemon juice and honey were only very temporarily effective. I realized that I didn’t have an effective herbal cough medicine and couldn’t find anything in my herbal books that really fit the bill. Sucking on herbal lozenges helped during the day but you can’t exactly do that when you are trying to sleep. So now I have a preview of what a serious flu bug is like. It’s not a pretty scene!
What did I learn from this ordeal? Mostly that prevention is what I am now focussing on. I just don’t want to go through that again! Since then I have been taking herbs on rotation to rebuild my inner self. Paying closer attention to diet and healthy PH levels. Paying closer attention to health and vitamin D levels. Learning to use colloidal silver to build my ‘second immune system’, my ‘back-up’ system. And exploring the use of new herbs that are recommended for use with H5N1. And persistently persuing my research for time-tested prevention techniques and herbals.
NS1 – at 02:35 “I’m still exploring the multi-factorial activity and trying to weight the correlations.”
NS1- That sentence sounds like it was generated by a computer program. Could you be more specific please? cheers
can’t you get codeine for the cough ? Isn’t it better to avoid infection instead of preparing to reduce the symptoms ? Masks on flights or avoiding flights etc. during flu-season, once it becomes clear that the strain isn’t sensitive to your vaccine. How many people were infected by you BTW. ? What can be done to avoid infecting others ? People with flu should wear suitable masks on flights.
Clark, NS1 is sometimes too philosophical for me too…
Anonymous- I assume you are directing your response to me. In Canada, you can’t get cough medicines with codeine without a doctor’s prescription. So I might try that route, try to get a prescription for a future possible use). There is a herbal cough syrup, that I might try next time, Nim Jiom (Pei Pa Goa). True, it is better to avoid infection but it is not always possible. Some of us have jobs that expose us to infections. We can’t just ‘not show up for work’ because some people are sick there. Sometimes the exposure takes place before we even realize someone is sick and carrying the bug. Masks on flights sound like the solution but have you ever been on a plane for literally hours and NEVER TAKEN OFF YOUR MASK? How do you drink water or eat anything? Avoiding flights/travelling during flu season is definitely wise. I can honestly say, I never infected anyone else to my knowledge. But I can’t be absolutely sure about that. In my household, I can safely say, that I did everything in my power to keep my germs to myself (slept in a room by myself, used separate hand towels, used disinfectant hand cleaner, washed all dishes with javex water, frequently aired the room that I spent time in).
you shuld _require_ that flu-persons don’t show up at work. We need a law to forbid people infecting others carelessly. When you are infectious with flu or (probably infectious) you should wear some warning dress plus mask etc. or better stay at home. Some people even go to public places with flu :-( The R_0 could be reduced by simple measures like this IMO. Although in a pandemic,when the virus is much more contagious these things don’t seem to work. Earlier or later almost everyone will be exposed, it seems(or not ?)
PanicStricken – at 04:19
Have you ever included any berberine-carrying herbs in your echinacea and burdock rotation?
I’ve seen goldenseal/goldenrod/barberry root work as a nice adjunct when the echinacea alone was not providing full nutrition against a pathogen, especially a co-infection with a fungal vector in the lungs or sinus cavities. A little Pau D’Arco always seems to be a fair choice with yellow phlegm. I personally use a combination that contains two echinacea species, barberry, cat’s claw, astragalus, ashwagandha, hydrangea root and burdock.
Have you tried Ishmag (Red Palm Fruit Oil) with your soups in combination with the coconut oil. The Ghanans and Nigerians use it frequently. Using a small amount of sea vegetable as a seasoning in soup goes a long way in feeding the mineral needs of your immune system. Sumak is one of my favorite tangy flavorings and is considered to be a cytokinic regulatory.
You’ve done an excellent job in designing your prevention / preparation program.
Will you be publishing it for the others or did I miss an earlier post?
Snowy Owl on May 5 cited suggestions to use large doses of Vitamins C and A and zinc. My question is if there is any research on combining this with Alpha Lipoic acid (ALA), which tends to keep anti-oxidants circulating in the body. ALA can be bought at health food stores and is not expensive and there are indications it helps with macular degeneration in combination with other ingredients. Does anyone know if there are tests of anti-oxidants and ALA with regard to flu?
NS1- Thank you for all the suggestions. I will try some of your ideas. Presently I am using Pau D’Arco to clear up some ridges on my fingernails. I am actually quite impressed with the results. It is a very fine herb. We have West Nile Virus in our area. We lost half our bird population last year to West Nile Virus, so I figure I should be careful. So I am using Pau D’Arco for two purposes right now. 1. Fingernail ridge clean-up and protection against West Nile Virus, at the same time. I think Pau D’Arco just might work to protect against H5N1. It’s a very powerful, but at the same time, gentle herb. The trick in using it is to increase the dose very slowly in order to give the body time to eliminate the toxins without overloading the elimination process and thus experiencing a ‘healing crisis’. I like the fact that Pau D’Arco nourishes the liver and that I can take it for as long as I feel it is necessary. I wouldn’t hesitate to take Pau D’Arco as a preventative herbal if H5N1 made an appearance in my corner of the world.
I’m adding my comments about Zicam here at Anon-22′s suggestion.
Here’s an excerpt from the search result for Zicam: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed
“Symptom charts were used to track the duration and severity of each patient’s symptoms. At study’s end, the duration of symptoms was 2.3 days (±0.9)in the zinc group and 9.0 days (±2.5)in the control group—a statistically significant difference (p <0.05). These results provide evidence that zinc nasal gel is effective in shortening the duration of common cold symptoms off when taken within 24 hours of their onset.”
My family has had very good personal results with Zicam (zinc gel solution used in the nose.) We use this at the onset of any colds and flus. When one of us uses it, either the cold/flu is mild or doesn’t really develop. When someone forgets/doesn’t use it, they go on to have a bad cold.
I know that the common cold and flu is nothing compared to BF, but if zinc gel helps even 1% to reduce replication, that might be the difference between life and death….I can only hope. I seriously doubt me and my family will have access to medical help when/if TSHTF.
Sorry, you need to type in Zicam at the link provided above.
INFOMASS – at 06:57
ALA is an excellent recycler of anti-oxidants. Typically when it is pressed into tablets, there are the normal contaminants present as in all other tablets.
I haven’t found anyone selling a capsule version of ALA because it may be hard to stablise for efficacy.
PanicStricken – at 07:43
Pau D’Arco, like any plant part with tannins, should be rotated in usage and dosage. Your gradual increasing dosage is an excellent system. Have you used Tea Tree Oil on your nails also?
I know folks who use Artemisia Annua, Black Walnut Hull, Yu Xing Cao and Garlic when WNV is in season. Again, the wormwood and walnut are strong plants, so they use it in rotation.
You have quite a collection of plant matter. Have you started doing any of your own mixing? Do you grow / harvest anything fresh?
clark – at 00:40 NS1- have you considered the fact that almost everybody was living the oragnic, home remedy lifestyle in 1918? There were still 50 to 100 million deaths. The inuits and Western Samoans had diets very high in unpolluted fish oils and yet suffered amongst the highest death rates on Earth in 1918.
NS1 – at 02:35 Clark- You’re right on target with the Kraut. That sounds great! I’ve thought about those facts about organic living in the decade around the earlier pandemic frequently. I’ve mused about it on the wiki in the early days, but don’t have time to reference it now. I do believe that the count was closer to 100 million based on the aggregations that I’ve followed. That’s a pretty low CFR considering what we are seeing today. The virus was very strong then and people’s bodies were only just starting to be genetically weakened and hampered by decreased nourishment. Nutrition is only one facet. Today the virus is stronger, I think, and people’s bodies are weaker. I’m still exploring the multi-factorial activity and trying to weight the correlations.
NSI- you still haven’t even begun to answer my question. You are advising people on strategies for for preparing for a flu pandemic- but people who naturally followed your line of thinking in 1918 had some of the highest death rates on Earth. I expect something a bit more spedific than “I’m still exploring the multi-factorial activity and trying to weight the correlations”. cheers
>> have you considered the fact that almost everybody was living the oragnic, home remedy lifestyle in 1918?
At that time info sources were limited to Grandma and her circle of friends. Now we can use the internet to pool remedies from everywhere on the globe and check against PubMed, Scirus or Herbalgram. Back to the future!
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: These ideas are pure speculation. IN NO WAY should they be construed as medical or safety advice. Consult specialists in these areas for advice.
Clark-
I’m advising exactly no one on these threads. We are discussing matters of increasing urgency.
Please reset your expectations.
I’ve provided the answer that I have time to provide on several threads now. If you don’t mind doing a little research, you may follow my response better.
You are on some sort of a vendetta that is detracting from our work. You follow my postings from one thread to another and snip with the same accusatory statements?
What is your motive? We should be working together. You are starting to enter the realm of provocateur for no good reason. I have seen and registered your displeasure with my viewpoint on “Making your own vaccine”. I have apologised if you mistook my debate for any attack on you.
Please cease and desist from this snipping. I’m happy to provide information that I have when I have more time to delve into specific points around your issue.
Cayte-
I’m awed by the amount of information available to the average person today. Anyone can explore medicine from almost any cultural viewpoint including allopathic. The wide range makes us much more functional and able to contribute to our own health.
There’s never been a time in world history that so many different plants are available to so many different people. We are living in an era of the greatest buffet of healing modalities ever known to mankind.
Will we take advantage of it as a species or continue snipping in hopes of a miracle synthetic?
Clark- You seem to claim to know statistics on the people who died in 1918, ie. the ‘highest death rates on earth’. Who suffered the ‘lowest death rates on earth’? Statistics could be helpful in solving the puzzle. Please share with us your knowledge and co-related information of those that died and those that survived the 1918 flu disaster.
NS1- I am familiar with walnut and wormwood. They are excellent for treating parasites. They also tend to cause constipation when taken alone. I would recommend taking slippery elm along with either of these herbs to balance off the constipation.
No, I don’t grow/harvest anything on my own.
I do some combining of herbs (usually not more than 3 at a time). When I do this, I use dried herbs combined in a tea ball.
Since this thread is focussing on alternative treatments I would like to suggest an idea for those considering stocking and possibly using herbal alternative treatments as backup PREVENTION and even possibly, as TREATMENT.
It is not uncommon for people to be hosting a variety of parasites, bacteria, fungi, and viruses (uninvited guests feeding quietly off their inner organs) in small enough numbers that they are not aware of it other than having vague sypmtoms they can’t really identify.
Waiting until fighting a flu, before attempting to use the powerful antivirals/antibacterials in the medicine cabinet, could cause a ‘healing crisis’ to be far more unpleasant than it needs to be.
An inner cleansing of these uninvited dinner guests is wise. Do it NOW. On a rotation basis, take the anti-viral, anti-parasitical, anti-bacterial herbs. Starting gently, with a low dose and gradually building up to the full dose. The healing crisis will be hardly noticeable, (a little flu-like feeling, short-lived, perhaps a pimple here or there as skin throws off toxins, perhaps a little sniffle, short-lived), occasional nausea, short-lived. When you have finished using one bottle of a herb, switch to another etc. What you missed killing with the first herb, you might kill with the second… and so on. This inner cleansing has to be done at least twice a year (spring and fall cleaning), because of our constant exposure to the nasty little critters. Take acidophilus to keep the good bacteria in good supply.
Then if your immune system has to deal with a real live flu, it only has to fight with ONE THING and your organs are healthy enough to withstand big trouble. It is easier to jump to full strength when you need the ‘big guns’ when you have already had previous exposure to a herb.
Excellent points, PanicStricken.
What’s the old stat? John Wayne’s large intestine weighed 45 pounds at death; Elvis Presley topped the scales at 65 pounds? I think I read that somewhere? Regardless of the amount, anything extra that blocks nutrient absorbtion is starving you and most fermenting colon debris is poisoning you. Malnutrition and Toxicity again.
An immune system that is already taxed daily with parasites is not usually properly functioning. I’m convinced that most Americans have parasites, almost a guarantee when pets are involved without proper detox routines.
I’m concerned that so many people are going to be starting in a deficit. A thorough multi-system cleanse now will go a long way if PF51 strikes. A traditional bowel and parasite cleanse is a great start.
I agree wholeheartedly that the wormwood and black walnut require some balancing herbs.
After prepping the bowel with a few weeks of ascending amounts and servings of the fiber/spice blend, I add a plant extract to the mix continuing the fiber / spice blend for several more weeks in tandem.
Fiber / Spice Blend
Extract Blend
No colon irritants or laxatives. They may be dangerous to your body.
You can guess from the list what it all does . . . increases nutrition and encourages detoxification of parasites and endogenous wastes (toxic metals, debris, etc).
It’s all pretty comprehensive. The length of the list should demonstrate that my philosophy revolves around depth of variety. I’ve found in my meanderings that unless an individual has a specific herb allergy (rare) that it’s best to employ a broad foundation of plants . . . covers more body chemistries and phenotypes that way.
Remember to get help from a qualified practicioner before undertaking any change in your health / eating routine.
PanicStricken – at 04:56
Don’t forget that you can use herbs for your own treatment, but it is quite illegal for you to tell someone else to use an herb for a disease treatment.
Its perfectly legal for you to advise someone to use a particular synthetic pharmaceutical for a disease treatment?
See how that works? Or doesn’t work? Kind of funny, huh?
The statistics for survival rate among those using homeopathic treatment during the 1918 pandemic is staggering. If anyone is interested in specifics I could look it up again.
that statistics were wrong/manipulated, I read
PanicStricken – at 04:02- There are no specific “statistics” on the fate of the worlds population in 1918- more like lots of vignettes. Europeans had relatively low death rates-That is probably why the projected worse case- case fatality rates for 2006 have been so low. They projected European USA data onto the entire world. Here are some Inuit links that Bronco Bill found.
NS1 – at 00:44 Your name never registered in my mind until you started hanging out on the “making your own vaccine thread” and copying and pasting. Oh yes and the snarky “satires” directed towards me.
I am a health food nut myself. Never vaccinated my two kids- they were home born- the works. But the storm that is brewing looks like a biggy. I am more interested in keeping myself and my boys in one piece, than herbal purity.
The death rates in the far North and Western Samoa really bother me. I was going down the fish oil road- but I really have to wonder now.
Codeine is available in tablet form with Tylenol and caffeine in Canada as an OTC product. In the US, my doc has prescribed Tylenol 3 tabls for me when I had a bad cough. He said the amount of codeine in tab or cough syrup was about the same.
Clark-
You’ve done your children a great service, a lifelong service.
I do believe that a high purity fish oil like the ones that Will88 mentioned will be beneficial for you and your boys in building health. With Will thread, I was offering the alternative of sea plants and other sea organisms that are a less toxic alternative.
Taking a high purity Omega oil has a high likelihood of being beneficial. However, if an individual is already carrying a high toxin load, the mercury and other allowable metals in the fish oils may be enough to create symptoms and ill health.
Much of the available data is gathered here. Feel free to harvest data, and store, and be as skeptical about these remedies as you are about tamiflu.
If you noticed the press releases today you will find: New Nutrient-Based Approach Shows Promise Against Deadly Bird Flu Symptoms
Basically they are promoting glutathione as an anitoxidant to lower the “cytokine storm.” Glutathione is available in vitamin and health food stores. Not sure anyone knows what “alternative treatements” may be usefule but this is something to look into.
Dennis-
Spinach and Purslane also help boost the glutathione and various other nutrients to increase cytokinic regulation.
Asparagus, broccoli, garlic, avocado and turmeric also work to boost the glutathione.
Dennis: I saw the same article and opened up a thread on Glutathione to see if anyone knew anything about it. It is another “hoax” or is their possible benefit to having it in one’s preps?
Just think of garlic and how its been used over the ages to prevent infection.
Remember, there are no single point solutions and that if you get a substance in its natural state, it is more balanced and more useful to your body.
>>Fish oil is great for children, especially ones with mood disorders. You need to note the amount of EPA in the dosage, since there can be a lot of lesser quality fish oil - be sure it is molecularly distilled since Mercury tends to accumulate in larger fish
www.beyond-a-century.com offers mercury free fish oil. I have no affiliation. The also claim to have bioavailable olive leaf powder.
Obviously, I cannot verify their claim. But I have some rules of thumb. I avoid sites with a tabloid look and feel and hooks like LOW, LOW, LOW PRICES! and LOSE WEIGHT INSTANTLY!. I favor sources that show passion and dedication. Sorting through gigabytes of medical data strikes me as an inefficient way to make a buck.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: These ideas are pure speculation. IN NO WAY should they be construed as medical or safety advice. Consult specialists in these areas for advice.
anonymous at 07:56 - the survival rates for homeopathic treatment in 1918 weren’t manipulated that anyone has determined, it is when they are compared against conventional treatment that the numbers don’t make much sense.
Cayte-
You’re right about avoiding tabloid look sites.
LOW, LOW PRICES typically mean LOW, LOW QUALITY and/or LOW, LOW DOSAGE.
Calico-
From what I remember of the 1918 reports on natural treatment (and the reports were made by MDs), the results were compelling and far from being questionable.
panicstricken, Did you use any vitamin c? If so, how much? - Laura
NS1, does that include those homeopathic claims ? Do you have a source ? Jon Berry reports about the absurdity of the numbers from ‘’The Journal of the American Institute for Homeopathy’‘
I don’t really study homeopathy (a separate field of herbalism using infintisimal dosages), so I haven’t tracked any numbers specifically ascribed to homeopathy.
Laura in PA at 01:36 Yes, I always take vitamin C. I like to use C-1000 time- release. I personally take 2000 C time-release/per day taken in two doses with meals. I understand there are some who take much larger doses per day. Vitamin C is water soluable so what your body doesn’t use is passed out in your urine. I believe time-release works for about 8 hours.
I also try to eat plenty of raw fruits and vegetables containing vitamin C every day. My personal belief is that there may be other important elements in the actual foods that contain vitamin C, that are needed for the body to make efficient use of the vitamin C we take in a pill form. Vitamin C is destroyed by heat(cooked foods). Also, it is not as high in fruits that are picked too early or fruits that are left out at room temperature.
In the days of the early settlers, inadequate intake of vitamin C was determined to have caused scurvy. One very modern (and interesting), theory is that inadequate intake of vitamin C can cause arteriosclerosis.
anon at 3:22 - the most quoted figure for homeopathic v. allopathic survival during 1918 relates to a relatively narrow comparison at one time. It was a large sample size (thousands) but may have represented the most deadly period of the virus and in an area where the allopaths weren’t having much luck. The numbers given are along the line of 1% mortality among homeopathic patients compared to almost 30% for allopathic. Clearly the pandemic-wide average for 1918 wasn’t 30%, but we do hear about certain communities being very heavily hit and much higher than 30%. I don’t have any reason to doubt the 1% number.
This article is the most useful one I have seen on homeopathic treatment during 1918, although it doesn’t give numbers.
I thought this one might be of interest to those of you working toward a natural program of health. Another study showing the damage in using common pharamceuticals.
Have a look at the study on Asthma Beta-Agonists:
MedScape Free Full Text (may require registration at no charge)
Long-Acting Beta-Agonists May Increase Risk for Death From Asthma
<snip>
<snip>
They note that 3.5 million Americans use these drugs each year.
Pretty interesting, huh?
I read an article about a week ago which stated that nanoparticle colloidal silver in both 10 and 20ppm strengths killed the bird flu virus in vitro. It stated that the tests were conducted by the microbiology department at the University of Utah.
Metals have had a role in traditional medicine. Just remember that there is no single point solution.
Never been one to give much credence to herbal cures, preventives, but the mention of Pau D’Arco rang a bell with me. For some years I had toenail fungus so bad that used to hide my toes in the sand at the beach, but doctor told me the only medicine effective was a dangerous mix with anti-cholesterol meds. Research led me to Pau D’Arco tea, brewed strong doses, about two quarts at a time, soaked my feet in it twice a day, and over the next couple of months my nails grew out clear, but then I could not find any more (this was before the internet) so it came back. Not until they came out with a new anti-fungal some years later was I able to cure it. Can not comment on any other use it may have. Do not know if it has any effect against virus. Zicam is a miracle, at least for me, and I always take it as above, as soon as I have the first indication of a cold, only side effect may be that those who take it may dull their sense of smell somewhat, although I have not noticed it. Plan on doing more research on that one, meantime, Tamiflu is the first line of defense.
Pau D’Arco is traditionally valued as a wide spectrum anti-fungal and anti-parasitical.
I’m posting this here because it is a very eloquent statement on the theme of this thread and I wanted to share something personal that is related without hijacking the other thread. Originally posted by NS1 on this thread(hope you don’t mind NS1)
geo-
Thank you for the very balanced review of the book. The author’s time and work is certainly worthwhile. Its too bad that most people would want to pay exactly nothing for the information that seems to be well-researched.
Bear in mind, again, that the book puts forward treatments that are
Every risk, short and long-term, should be weighed before you undertake a treatment based on an opinion.
I’ll be basing my preparations on the opinions of millions of people treated over the course of time in deeply-documented, well cross-referenced, non-toxic and efficaceous traditional medicine systems.
I’m just not sure yet how otherwise intelligent people can discount thousands of years of positive results in hundreds of locations for 100 years of Western allopathic medicine that continues to fail us when needed most?
Don’t get me wrong, I once was one of you. Ardently . . . and arrogantly one of you believers in the singularity of modern science.
My scientific tools lead me to an new path when I was cured of the myopia of arrogance. Now I use my tools to go back to the basics, to show what every greatgrandmother knew . . . we’ve been supplied with the healing tools freely if we just take hold of them.
MaMa-
Thank you for bringing that post over here. It’s part of my confession.
Patterns are patterns whether naturally occuring or man-made. I just saw too many patterns that were devolving and were man-made.
So I started looking.
Then I found patterns that were explainable and beneficial, so I began to incorporate the science with the traditional systems.
What an eye-opener! The information is all out there.
Discoveries are easy.
If you look.
My son(now 11) developed eczema when he was 3 months old. It started on his cheeks and legs in little patches. For those of you who might not be familiar with it, eczema is a chronic extremely uncomfortable condition that can occur on any part of your body, characterized by dry rashy patches of skin that can become raw and inflamed. When you break out with them you are very itchy and feel like scratching the area all the time, but shouldn’t as this makes it worse and can cause bacterial infections in your skin.
My husband and I took him to the GP here in town, who referred us to a pediatric dermatologist in the city(we live in a small rural community). We got sent home with a moisturizer sample and had to wait 8 months for the referral appointment and in the meantime each outbreak got progressively worse. By the time we could see a specialist his skin was nearly entirely raw from his knees to his ankles. He could hardly sleep and I had to keep his legs wrapped in gauze to stop him from scratching. You might think that waiting 8 months is nuts- believe me we tried to get an appointment with ANYBODY who could help us- no GP wanted to prescribe anything for that young an infant and there are exactly 2 pediatric dermatologists in the province9the other had a longer waiting list)- we couldn’t get in any sooner.
So we finally got to see the dermatologist who tested our son for allergies and spent ten minutes doing a general examination and talking to us. No common allergies. The doc prescribed a cortisone-based cream(prescription cost about $250) to clear up the rash. We were hesitant to use it as it can have negative effects, but at that point we were willing to try almost anything. Seeing our son in agony for days at a time and not being able to help him was becoming unbearable. We took him home and put the cream on him. The next morning I woke up to him screaming and crying, his legs were worse than they had been the day before. I called the doc and he told us to discontinue use of the cream as our son must have had an allergic reaction to it. He aske dif he was having any breathing problems(he wasn’t) and said if he developed any we should go to a hospital emergency room. I asked the doc when we could see him again- so he could make sure our baby was going to be okay and if he could suggest something else we might use. He said he didn’t know of anything else and we could get another appointment in 3 months- well I told him to go to hell and hung up- so much for prompt follow-up of a potentially seriuos complication. He acted like it was nothing.
In one of he neighboring communities a woman I knew had just returned from training in India as a homeopathic doctor. I thought homeopathy was alot of nonsense but was willing to grasp almost any straw so I called her up, explained the problem and asked her if she thought she could help our son. She said yes, she thought she could but the treatment might take awhile to be effective and would likely be long-term as his was a chronic and not an acute condition. She said she could see us first thing the next morning. She examined him and asked me about a million question, not just about my son but about myself and my husband, my pregnancy nad my son’s birth. She prescribed a homeopathic medication to use as well as olive oil as a moisturizer for his skin. We scheduled a follow-up in a month and she gave me her cell# to call anytime if I had any questions or concerns.
Darn, more in a few minutes- life(my littlest one) is calling!
you are very impressing! all those plants and herbs, and no one mention the news about Tobacco (nicotine) as a treatment on the cycotine storm.. after all, its just another herb :)
http://www.fluwikie2.com/pmwiki.php?n=Forum.NicotineAndCytokineStorm
I’m glad you don’t mind NS1 and want to thank you for all of the information you have shared here on the forum. My family and I are and will continue to benefit from it.
I don’t know how else to explain my position on this issue without giving some background for my reasoning. If you find it dreadfully boring, I apologize:-)
Anyway, our boy showed marginal improvement in the first month. At the follow-up the homeopathic doc explained again that it might take awhile yet to see dramatic improvement, to try to be patient. She also suggested that we try to incorporate groung flax in our son’s cereal if he found it palatable. Over the next 6 months he improved steadily eventually was rash-free for months at a time.
He still breaks out a tiny bit once in a while during the cold dry months of winter, but it is very mild and only lasts a few days. He still sees the homeopathic doc every six months and has a particular medication that he takes at the first sign of a flare up. He now takes omega 3–6−9 supplements and still uses the olive oil as a moisturizer.
Last year we had a huge fight on our hands with family and the school about our son’s eczema, a product called Elidel was being heavily advertised as the new ‘wonder drug’. He barely breaks out at all any more, but their reasoning was ‘it might get rid of it entirely and for good’. We did some research and found out that this med could cause skin and lymph cancers in children and that you couldn’t have treated skin exposed to sunlight as this increased the risk. We decided against it then and there and have continued with what has worked for us.
This doc has also helped me decrease the severity and incidence of terrible migraines that I have been plauged with since puberty. She incorporates homeopathy with herbal treatments and dietary and lifestyle changes. I didn’t believe it could work and it did. My son was too young to know to have an opinion and it worked for him. There are plenty of other examples I could give, but I’m sure I’ve gone on more than enough as it is with that:-)
I don’t think that ‘the medical establishment’ and the doctors in it are ‘evil’, nor that all prescription drugs are harmful. I take antibiotics if I need them, etc. Nor are all natural(herbal), homeopathic, doctors ‘good’ and their treatments beneficial.
I think it is extremely important to realize that all research into treatment is conducted by human beings- whether it be in a hospital/lab setting or in the ‘real’ world. Double-blind clinical trials are great, both potentially harmful and life-saving treatments result from them. Observation in a less formal setting over a period of time is valid too, with all the same positive and negative possibilities. You should use your common sense and be part of caring for yourself and evaluating choices(they are out there!), not blindly follow one path and refusing to consider others. No person, or their work, is infallible. We are all only human. At the end of the day we are all responsible for ourselves.
Calico, I’d like to apologize to you for not voicing my opinions earlier. I didn’t want to get into an argument about it with someone who could never be convinced anyway, maybe I should have.
MaMa-
Thank you for teaching us about your experience.
Let’s all be well-instructed by the lesson here.
If you chose allopathic or natural, non-toxic care, please by all means, talk to someone knowledgable with experience in your symptoms and a strong desire to help you.
Has your son had his liver function analyzed by anyone? Was there antibiotic usage during pregnancy, any out-of-country travel that required vaccinations during pregnancy, etc.
Does your boy ever show any jaundice, especially during the acute phases? Does he suffer from poor digestion, headaches or joint pain?
Does stress aggravate his skin?
You are making a world of difference in his life and in those reading here that have suffering children.
Thank you for being so forthcoming.
Is your advisor using ginger or other anti-inflammatory plants like baikal skullcap for your son or your headaches?
Some plants traditionally used for neuro-building / relaxation / cytokinic regulation
Some plants traditionally used for activities including vasodilation, pain reduction and cytokinic regulation.
When my oldest was a baby, I purchased some garlic/mullen ear drops for her because the doctors put her on antibiotics for an ear infection and it didn’t work. I understand completely (and with much experience having since traveled a long road) that many ear infections/ear aches are not always treatable with antibiotics. However, it seemed the doctors didn’t have anything else to offer if antibiotics didn’t work. I was amazed at the difference these drops made for my girl. The mullen takes away the pain, even infants stop crying within moments of using the drops, and the garlic heals the ear very quickly. I have only ever had to use the drops for about three days and they’re done. None of the girls have ever needed tubes or suffered greatly from ear problems since discovering those drops—wahoo!
I am also one of those mothers that rushes the kids to the doctor for nearly anything. Once they are diagnosed and I know what’s going on, then I evaluate what might be best for the specific circumstances.
NSI, thanks for responding. He has not had his liver analyzed by a specialist.
No antibiotic usage during pregnancy. I travelled to Mexico in my 5th month, no vaccinations. I was very careful with what I ate, drank only bottled water, tea and coffee.
His only digestive upsets are if he overindulges in hard cheese. He gets terribly smelly gas but no stomach pain. It’s not really suprising as his Dad is lactose intolerant. No joint pain or headache problems. He never had jaundice, even as a baby.
Stress does aggravate his eczema, if he gets very upset it is likely to flare up.
Too much sugar, candy, pop can trigger a flare up. We really try to limit it, we don’t eat much junk food, he mostly gets it on special occaisons.
He also has skin sensitivities to perfumes, detergents and some soaps. We use only scent-free laundry detergent and he has his own hypo-allergenic soap and shampoo(has witch hazel in it). His clothing is almost exclusively of natural materials(mostly cotton) and we’re very careful that all the interior seams are smooth so they’ll be comfortable for him.
Golly MaMa, your poor boy. How old is he now? or did you mention that and I missed it?
My neice has similar difficulties with eczema. My sister had the same run-around with docs. They found that a diet free of dairy products helped immensely. It didn’t stop it though. Some of her triggers sound like your son’s as well. I know my sister now makes this homemade salve for her. They only do it once a year because it’s a nasty job. It’s actually a bit green in color, but my neice uses it faithfully and it works well. I tried it and I had an allergic/intolerance reaction—I have learned the difference lately between intolerant and allergic. I am intolerant to almost every food product available—yeast, dairy, wheat, nuts, citrus, melons, chocolate (sometimes I react, sometimes I don’t, to the chocolate, I mean) cucumbers, foods high in acid. The Atkins Diet works well for me, lots of meat protein, eggs, plain green veggies. I recently discovered that fast food chinese food has wheat in some of their sauces so I now have to be careful about those. I haven’t had a piece of pizza in almost two years. You’d think I’d be as skinny as a rail, but not quite a rail yet—too short!
Oooh, I forgot to mention this—my third daughter is appearing to follow in my footsteps with intolerances. The allergist, inbetween a couple visits, went to a conference and came back with this: the allergists agree that they are seeing problems in children that they used to only see in senior citizens’ ages. They attributed it to poor diet. She then explained that the healthy bacteria in the upper digestive is supported by stuff like acidopholus(sp?) like in yogurt, but that it doesn’t live long enough to make it to the lower digestive. So, they recommended products with “Bifidus” or “Bifido” bacteria in it. It has helped my daughter tremendously. She can eat things now that used to cause her discomfort and pain, like pizza and popcorn, but she has to take her pill.
NS1, she recommended green tea, chamomile tea and rosehip tea to drink often and as much as I wanted to. I also have also had periods of insomnia for many years. I tried sleeping pills once(many years ago)for a few days, but didn’t feel any better rested anyway so I quit. She suggested to try different relaxation methods- warm bath, yoga, a brisk walk, making sure I eat well before bedtime to name a few things that might help. She also said I should try not allow myself to be worried or frustrated by my inability to sleep, if I really couldn’t I was to do something that I really enjoyed instead.
With my son, she prescribed Omega 3–6−9 as I stated previously, suggested to limit dairy and citrus fruits, to use whole grain breads(which we did anyway), sunflower and olive oils for cooking. He detests chamomile tea, so I gave up on that.
Maybe I should also mention that he is very active all of the time, hyper-active when his skin is rashed up. I don’t blame him, he keeps moving to distract himself from scratching.
MOF, I’ll be back in a flash, sorry!
MaMa, do you know if you grind your teeth during the night, or clench your jaw? Do you have TMJ?
Perhaps check out a rheumatologist for fibromyalga(sp?) Golly, I must be tired since I can’t spell that. I have been seeing one for three years now for this. It causes the insomnia and the fatigue. When I’m stressed, I get migraines too. Waking up with one is the worst of all. I just had one last Thursday, knocked me off my feet all day. I never even took a shower…. I think I was grinding my teeth throughout the night.
MOF, he’s turning 12 in July. How old is your niece and what is in the salve that she is using- if you could find out I would really appreciate it. Nothing is worse than your child being in pain and not being able to help. We are very happy that our son is so much better than he was. He never did develop asthma either, which is apparently quite common around the age of 7 if eczema has been present since infancy.
Allergies and intolerances can be a real trial. They can be further complicated in some people by the combination of what is eaten at the same time. My sister-in-law has a bazillion food sensitivites, we are VERY careful when she comes to visit. It must be very challenging to eat a well balanced diet with so many things that are needed to be left out.
MOF, I used to grind my teeth at night. I never knew until I got married and my hubby told me. About a year after we got married I stopped(must be a good sign, right?:-), our 14th anniversary is coming up next month so I haven’t done that for a long time. My big trigger is exactly that too, stress. That’s why I really try to make time to have a good stretch and kind of meditate every day- just be very still and try to totally relax, let my mind wander for a bit instead of focusing so intently on what needs to be accomplished next. LOL, it should be a requirement in every Mom’s day- not that it always happens, some days I’m lucky to get the bathroom to myself for 2 minutes:-). My other triggers are very bright sunlight and forgetting to eat- I get busy and whammo!- not a good idea as I have low blood pressure and low blood sugar. I try to be very conscious of eating well and regularly now and it helps alot. I also take a homeopathic medication if I feel one coming on- 9 times out of 10 it works- which is much better odds than painkillers- nothing I tried before even put a dent in the pain.
This is such a coincidence, because my triggers are the same—bright sunlight, forgetting to eat. I also have low blood pressure and low blood sugar. You’ve just gotta check into the fibro situation. Which homeopathic do you take when you feel one coming on, I’d be interested in trying it.
I’ll be more than happy to call my sister tomorrow and ask her what is in her salve.
My girls are old enough that they respect my bathroom time, finally. Now, I’ve got a dog and two cats that have learned to consider that their time for attention from mom and I STILL can’t lock my door.
I’m having so much fun tonight, not even BF topics, but it has been really helpful to me. thanks everyone, and good night!
MOF, I will check into it.
I take Pulsatilla or Belladonna depending on my symptoms when it starts, but I would really hesitate to try any med out without consulting a professional. Homeopathic medications are based on you as an individual and your symptoms and two different people with the same problem might require two different medications. Please see if you can find a practitioner in your area if you’re interested in going that route.
Thanks for finding out about the salve.
LOL, my youngest (7) is the only one who is truly an offender in that area now- she doesn’t care what I might be doing if she wants to talk about something and if she’s awake, she wants to talk about something:-) There’s a new crop coming too, my 2 yr old niece thinks I’m the best(proud auntie here) and follows me EVERYWHERE when she’s here or I’m visiting my sister…oh well, I’d rather be surrounded by happy children than have perfect privacy anyway:-) C’est la vie!
Chammomile tea, straight, with no other tea added to it, might not be very a very interesting drink for children. But chammomile has such important food value for children, it is worthwhile finding a tea that is more patatable, such as ‘Grandma’s Tummy Mint’, which is a mix of chammomile and mint. The mint makes it a lovely tasting tea, similar to spearmint gum. I think children might find this tea more interesting. I sweeten it with Stevia, an all natural herbal sweetener.
Hey,
I just read about a new product called clinell wipes on a website http://www.orderhealthcare.com/ . Apperently its proven to kill the bird flu virus. What do people think? Is this all a hype? Apparently it was invented by two doctors who run a company GAMA Healthcare http://www.gamahealthcare.com/ . Also talka about two new products a hand sanitiser and a spray all proven to kill the bird flu virus http://www.gamahealthcare.com/clinell.html
They say
‘John Oxford, Professor of Virology at Queen Mary’s School of Medicine has said “Unfortunately, personal cleanliness and hygiene levels have dropped steadily over the last decades with many microbes, as never before, using the opportunity to spread. First and foremost to reduce virus transmission attention must be paid to hand washing and then when this is satisfactory, focus on cleansing surfaces and equipment shared by others such as desks, tables, telephones and door knobs.”
Clinell wipes, which were developed by two medical doctors, are a hand safe sanitising wet wipe that can be used to clean hands and surfaces. Having been proven to kill the avian influenza virus (H5N1) Clinell Wipes would be a simple yet effective method to reduce the transmission of colds and flu, including the bird flu virus.’
What are your views?
What are the ingredients?
My views are that spam should be removed.
This has been posted on other threads and looks like an advertisement to me?
PanicStricken – at 05:30
I like your idea for the camomile tea blend.
When I don’t have the time to make my own blend, I do recommend the thoughtful blends that come from Traditional Medicinals Tea.
They seem to regularly be on target and have a reasonable efficacy for a mass-produced herbal product.
Here’s another nice tea blend that supplies glyconutrients and feeds the signallers:
Just a dash of each stored in a sealed glass containe. Steep a teaspoon for 12–15 minutes in a covered ceramic cup.
Add honey or agave nectar.
Sip.
MaMa,
Has your son seen a TCM practitioner to determine the root of the eczema symptoms?
Panic-Stricken, thank-you! I will try out the chamomile-mint blend, if he doesn’t like it I can drink it:-)
NS1, sorry for the delay in replying. I was away most of the day.
No he hasn’t seen a TCM practitioner(I’m assuming that’s Traditional Chinese Medicine). There are some in Winnipeg, my province’s capitol. I don’t know much about it, except my assumption is that they’re herbalists using plants native to/naturalized in China. I am open to suggestions and considering new ideas though.
Regarding your earlier queries about my son’s condition- I was very ill when I carried him(24 hour morning sickness, for about 4 months of my pregnancies, all of them(3 full-term pregnancies/1 miscarriage). I made myself a tea of sliced fresh ginger root throughout the day and that (I’m convinced) is the only thing that kept me from retching constantly. I love my children and would do it all again but I’ve honestly never felt so wretched in my whole life as when pregnant. Neither of my girls has eczema, other than my son’s condition we’ve been blessed with good health with all 3 of them. I still drink ginger tea a few times a week, I guess it kind of grew on me and my son and older daughter have a cup with me maybe once a week(lots of honey for them though:-)
I consider the Chinese natural diagnostic methods to be an excellent system for chronic illness. When you have a look at the plants that they use, you’ll find since the country covers such a vast geography and climate zones that most plants of the world grow somewhere in China. Some of their early materia medica cover 5,000 plants.
Look for a Chinese-born, 3rd to 5th generation, TCM practitioner, if you can find one. There’s a higher possibility that they will be able to confer with esteemed father and honorable grandfather practitioner.
Multi-generational knowledge runs deep in TCM.
MaMa and Mother of Five - I can totally relate to the morning sickness. I had it for about 5 months 25/7… shudder… Thanks for sharing your stories.
NS1 - Thanks for the Asthma info above. My youngest son has it and I will bring that study up with his doctor. Once again, thank you for sharing your research and knowledge regarding nutrition and alternative treatment options. Each tidbit of information is like adding water and sunshine to that little seed you planted in my head. (I just hope the soil is fertile enough to let it grow… :-)
MaMa, I haven’t been able to reach my sister yet. I apologize for the delay. I haven’t forgotten though :) My neice is now married in her mid-20′s (I get the bad aunt award tonight for not remembering) and she has struggled with eczema since she was in her early teens. The salve helps so much that she doesn’t consider it too awful anymore. I guess Neutrogena T-Gel is very helpful for scalp eczema.
Heather-
Have you discovered the cause of your son’s asthma? Theron Randolph, M.D. designed some incredible programs for discovering causality of things like that. Ralph Moss, another excellent researcher, and Dr. Randolph compiled a nice book a few years ago walking through many of his common-sense ideas that might change your son’s life.
An Alternative Approach to Allergies
63 available new and used starting at $1.46.
Most used bookstores with a reasonable health section will have it for $5-$7.
I’m convinced that children are not required to suffer from these man-made maladies.
NS1 - I am not yet sure what causes his asthma as it comes and goes rather randomly. I will take a look at that book you suggested - thanks for the reference!
MaMa, I have the recipe for the salve for the eczema:
Place 1 oz. dried peppermint and 1 oz. comfrey in a square of cheesecloth and tie shut.
Place bag of herbs in a pot with 2 cups olive oil.
Simmer gently on low heat, uncovered, for one hour. The herbs will soak up a lot of the oil.
Gently squeeze herb bag between spoon and side of pot to squeeze out oil.
Melt 1 1/2 oz. beeswax in a double boiler. Add melted beeswax to oil and stir.
Pour into container(s) and cool in refrigerator.
This is helpful for burns and a variety of skin ailments. It will set up quickly, and it will have an unpleasant odor (so don’t think you did it wrong if it smells bad!)
I had an allergic reaction to it when I tried it, so maybe try a pretty small amount on your son first. And, keep in mind that I react to almost everything! Just an additional note, I know she researched to find this recipe, she did not invent it on her own, but she couldn’t remember where she got it—it has been many years—hopefully, this doesn’t count as “selling” or “publishing” or “infringing on copyright or patent laws” since I am not posting it for monetary gain :)
MOF-
At the end, you might consider adding some vitamin E oil or wheat germ oil to stabilise the lipids
Possibly include some rosemary in the herb mix during extraction for its known preservative activity.
NS1, thanks for the recommendation on TMC practitioners. I will do some research on who is available and see if they can help my son. I can’t tell you how much I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge with others, you are a fine person.
Regarding your suggested additions to the salve recipe that MOF generously shared with me, should the rosemary be fresh or dried, or does it matter?
MOF, thanks for the recipe! It is so fortuitous that comfrey is one of the ingredients- I have 2 huge patches of it in my garden. Now a question, should the comfrey be fresh or is it better to use when dried?
All herbs are better used fresh in extracts, more potency.
For an oil extract, be sure and dab all the water from the plant matter before you put it in the oil.
The easiest way at home to do an oil extract is to use a 1 quart mason jar inside an asparagus steamer.
Now you have a fine cooking oil, massage oil, transdermal delivery tool or base for a salve (if you add beeswax).
You can extract any aromatic herb this way and most other plant materials. If you have a favorite, give it a try.
Use the multiple heat steps to reduce the possibility of microbial growth.
Store in the refrigerator for maximum efficacy.
Don’t forget to extract some Habanera oil for cooking.
Comfrey-
Two words-
Pyrrolizidine Alkaloids
Comfrey should only be used in moderation and definitely not continuously. The PA can be hepato-toxic (liver damaging), especially with continuous usage.
Also keep in mind that Comfrey is a powerful cell-proliferant that should never be placed on a deep wound because closure may occur too rapidly at the surface, trapping growing microbes in the interior. Keep in mind that cell-proliferants are to be avoided in topicals by those with skin cancers.
Comfrey has recently come into controversy in usage as a wound healer because the PAs are so rapidly absorbed via any open wound that toxicity is concentrated. Recommendations are to only apply the comfrey in the general area of the wound, but not upon the wound.
NS1, you asked before if my son’s liver had ever been analyzed by a specialist. Is dysfunction of the liver common with eczema? And if there is a possibility of a pre-existing problem with his liver then comfrey maybe is not the best thing to try. I think I’ll wait on that until I have an opportunity to find out more, I’ll discuss it with the TCM practitioner when I find him/her.
Again, thank-you so much!
MaMa-
I thought that you might come to that conclusion.
All disease is systemic, please repeat, all disease is systemic.
No part of the body operates fully independently.
You should be able to find a full range of herbal ointments online for eczema. Look at the ingredients, search their contra-indications, pick a few and extract them in a nice blend of olive, almond, sesame and safflower oil.
Like anything else, self-treatment should start slowly, be watched carefully and be well-researched before beginning.
If nothing else, the oils are nutritious to his skin.
MaMa-
Many increase their skin health by increasing dietary fats like Evening Primrose, Purslane, Flax, Sunflower and Safflower. Neem oil is also traditionally used topically in Ayurveda.
The real question is why is eczema occuring?
NS1, ‘All disease is systemic, please repeat, all disease is systemic.
No part of the body operates fully independently.’
This is something I know well from experience. I’ve helped care for a few older relatives in the last few years of their lives. It is amazing how one seemingly small imbalance in their health, like a UTI, can absolutely wreak havoc with their condition in general. When one condition or disease occurs and isn’t or can’t be treared it seems to cause a kind of domino effect, more and more goes wrong. The human body is a very complex piece of work, without a doubt.
Why is eczema occuring?
I’ve asked myself that alot. He developed the symptoms when he was 3 months old. He never had any supplement to breastfeeding until 6 months of age. I had the same, fairly well-balanced diet, no big changes, no serious illness, no medications. I’ve always assumed that it was a congenital condition. No seasonal allergies could have developed at the time, nothing blooming in October after all. Maybe something more can be done, I’ll see what I can do to find out. Thank-you.
MaMa-
What is so galling for me is that sometimes those 65 year olds that are displaying systemic failure had symptoms and medical treatment in their forties.
Those very treatments probably covered / masked the real problem, leaving the cancer, vascular disease, digestive disease to simmer and gain a foothold.
I have printed out this info. I learned so much here on this thread. Just an FYI in case I wasn’t clear, I was just repeating her recipe because I have never made it. I also do not have experience with medicinal herbs. So I appreciate the additional information for my own benefit!
Absolutely! Some of the people I know in their 30′s and 40′s have just don’t look or feel healthy. I think alot of it is too much food, poor quality food and not enough exercise. They have insomnia, chronic stomach upset, muscle pain- so they go to the doctor and get sleeping pills, pain killers or take an antacid. They don’t treat the reason for their condition to clear it up, just get rid of the symptoms. Then go on tanking up on high fat, high salt, high sugar, highly processed foods. The original problem doesn’t get dealt with and the body can’t get proper nutrition to maintain itself. It’s sad in this day and age, in the developed world, that there is such a proliferation of choices in food and lifestyle and information to guide them- and yet so many people don’t see it or don’t choose to.
My aunt ate herself to death(I loved her like a second mother, nothing disrespectful, just the truth). She overate all the time and had a teribble diet, she was very overweight from the age of 15 on. She developed diabetes at age 32 and refused to take insulin for years, she was afraid of needles. She developed a heart condition and was diagnosed at age 46. By the age of 52 she needed a quadruple bypass. She never stopped doing exactly as she pleased, but she paid a high price for it. People have so much potential if they just TRY to be responsible for taking good care of themselves, that’s half the battle.
should have refreshed, my post at 23:45 was in response to NS1′s post.
MOF, I appreciate your finding the recipe for me. If it’s not the right thing in the end for my son to use, it’s still very kind of you to help. Thanks.
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MaMa – at 23:45
My hope is that the people who I love will begin to slowly change their lives by adopting some good behaviours, then feel better, get motivated by their progress and pyramid onto better decision-making.
The brain is a sensitive instrument that never reaches its potential until your body is healthy.
I think that’s why most people can’t get past the first few steps in any improvement program, like exercise or eating.
Feel Great, Think Well, Do Right
I believe it has to be a feedback loop, but you must first have some motivating event that makes you feel great before you can think well enough to start consistently doing right.
I’m seeing it happen little by little and its amazing how good news and good health can spread to extended family and even neighbors.
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Okay, this isn’t legal and I don’t condone it but I have read that it is possible to make opium tea from the dried heads of the opium poppy flower-a very common flower that is probably growing in your neighborhood. My 80 year old neighbor grows them. You crush 2–3 pods and steep them with some black tea. It provides a very mellow feeling-like an all body numb. you can still function perfectly but you will have a feeling of well being.
Being as it takes two years to grow these poppies from seed or you could buy them from a nursery as year old plants. Some people just buy the dried heads from craft stores or flower shops. Again I think this is a terrible for anyone to try to relieve the discomfort of those who are sick. please don’t arrest me.
anon for obvious reasons at 2:48 - I think your poppy tea is a very inappropriate recipe for this thread.
NS1, I think you’re right about the feeddback loop. I’m glad you’ve had success with family and loved ones.
PanicStricken, I agree and thanks.
This thread is getting pretty long.
Discussion continued here
On the subject of chronic diseases and why allopathy is unlikely to permanently cure them…
Bumping for Bill
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MaMa-
That same feedback loop has allowed our friends to have success converting their families and extended families . . . one family with branches all over the world has created a whole support network for each other from what they’ve each individually learned about natural health. I’m always assured that time spent providing tips and info to that family will be well-used and retaught to the others.
Closed to maintain Forum speed.