From Flu Wiki 2

Forum: Water Preparations

24 September 2006

DennisCat 21:09

We have talked a lot about food preps. But it has been a while since we have talked about water preps. (We do have some good older water threads).

To me, water is the #1 prep item. If there is no water for a even one week, then not much else will matter.

I am lucky in that I am near the head of a small stream. I have a solar pump and a 500-gallon tank. I even have a solar/ozone backup for an alternative to chlorine treatment. But most city dwellers are not that lucky. How are you approaching your water problem? Do you have any suggestions for others? How much water do you have stored? Have you done any trial runs without city/community water? How much have you budgeted for cooking- how much for sanitation?

DoubleDat 21:30

We have 3 months of water stored - enough for each family member and our pets - drinking water, cooking, and very very light cleaning needs.

We have a modest rainwater collection system that we installed this year - and will be expanding it next year.

We have water purification and filtration supplies.

We live within hiking distance to freshwater streams (water is heavy though so this is NOT a great option).

We have a handbail that could be used in our well. It would be a real pain in the patooty to do - but better than dieing from dehydration.

Jane – at 22:01

We live a several blocks from Lake Michigan, but a lot of people live nearby too, and I’m afraid that we’d get robbed of our little red wagon and big water boxes on the way.

DoubleD, how much weight can those baby joggers hold? They have nice big wheels. I’ve been tempted by the metal mesh garden carts with pneumatic wheels, but those bouncy wheels can get flat tires.

KimTat 22:08

I have 8–55 gallon water barrells and two 15 barrels, several 5, 8 and 10 gallon containers and restocking bottled water all the time. I have a water purifier and lots of extra filters in case tap is running but not good and or I have to go to the river (don’t really want to do that) which is about a mile away. I have tarps to collect rain if nessesary.

25 September 2006

stilearning – at 00:33

Water for 18 months is the weak link for me, maybe for most of us, and the most important consideration. I am planning to move due to the water issue, if there is time. If there is not time, well… I guess I will have to be moving later anyway. What kind of fool am I?

What would light a fire under me to get me to hurry up and prioritize my survival actions? I suppose another one of those unwanted, terrifying pandemic nightmares - where I wake up completely freaked out - that might help to wake/shake up my consciousmess to action. Oh those nightmares do have their purpose……WAKE UP - BREAK RIGHT. BREAK RIGHT!

Anon_451 – at 00:40

Have 600 gallons of bottled water good to 2008. Can store another 200 gallons in barrels and jugs. Gives me 130 days for 6 at one gallon for drinking and cooking. Have two 2 thousand gallon kiddy pools for washing and hygiene. Have a Big Berkley and a Miox with a pond available with in 1/4 mile. Rain barrels and tarps for rain water. Think I have it covered.

Gary Near Death Valley – at 00:54

Have about 1000 gallons stored in various things, plus within the next couple of weeks will be putting in the hand pump onto the well,,,,for an additional back up.

EnoughAlreadyat 01:10

What’s a big berkley?

preppiechick – at 01:13

You know, as it is my achilles heel, I have really procrastinated (and it is one terrible habit to break, you know, always putting it off (procrastinating about procrastinating)… hehe)about how to store that much water; Also, we plan on moving and that has just given me another excuse. I do have enough drinking water and other liquids for at least a month, but beyond that…it is an overwhelming task. It is too late to go thru all the old threads, but does anyone know if swimming pools with a liner, instead of gunite/concrete, leaches too many chemicals? I remember the discussion about kiddie pools, but I don’t recall any reference to inground pools. I can’t bug out of the city, but I could look for a house with a pool!

Clawdia – at 01:22

It’s problematic for me, as well. Have three months of water stored, and an Aqua Rain with spare elements.

It’s inadequate. I should go to the store tomorrow and haul home at least another 100 gallon jugs. At 8 pounds a gallon, that would mean moving a hell of a lot of water weight. No wonder it’s so problematic!

EnoughAlreadyat 01:52

Waterbeds hold up to 400 gallons of water, but some water beds contain toxic chemicals that are not fully removed by purifiers. If used as an emergency water resource, drain it yearly and refill it with fresh water containing two (2) ounces (1/4 cup) of bleach per 120 gallons of water. Do not add algicides or other additives (with the exception of chlorine bleach) if this water is to be used as a water reserve. Before use, water should be boiled.

SOURCE: North Caroline Cooperative Extension Service- EMERGENCY DRINKING WATER SUPPLIES

Dang~~ be nice to know what waterbeds don’t contain toxic chemicals. And how you’d go about to find that info. Wonder if that’s a twin, standard, queen or king size bed?

MAV in Colorado – at 02:15

For city dwellers, I REALLY like the 100–300+ gallon water bags. The cost to volume is very good. The smaller 75–125 gal ones are “portable” (ie they fit in a truck or SUV, mini van). I would keep one ready to fill, and lay it out in a garage or even spare room. This would be the back up to a reasonable bottled stockpile because it would take several hours to fill, thus dependent on being slightly ahead of TSH-ing TF. The likelyhood of the water service being out so early on is near zero in my estimation.

I like the one in the first link

http://tinyurl.com/h5bsq http://tinyurl.com/hpds4 http://tinyurl.com/kv96l http://tinyurl.com/z563n http://tinyurl.com/jn85x http://tinyurl.com/gk42d

EnoughAlreadyat 02:44

AquatankII is on sale at BayTech containers online, and free shipping.

Kim – at 07:01

preppiechick, I have an inground vinyl-lined pool (17,500 gallons) that is my backup water source. I’d started a thread on it awhile back to try to get more info on the chemicals used in the water. I never got any really concrete answers to my questions, and sorry but I can’t remember now the name of the thread (it did have the words “swimming pool” in it, so you could do a search).

Here’s my take on an inground pool… it can be alot of work (and expense) to keep up, but the trade=off is that you have a beautiful cool place to take a dip during the summer heat as well as a backup water source. You’ll need to be careful about what chemicals you use (I use chlorine (HTH), baking soda, muriatic acid, and cyanuric acid). I am not worried at all about the vinyl liner, and the only chemical I use that gives me some pause is the cyanuric acid (stabilzer). I’ve decided that I’m not worried enough about it to let all that water go to waste. After another chlorine treatment and filtering through my AquaRain filter, we’ll be drinking it.

nopower – at 10:23

Just under 240 gallons in retail 1gallon and 20oz bottles. We don’t cook or drink our well water so I have alot of empty 1gallons that I hope to fill with city water when it becomes necessary.

I have a genset and some gasoline to run the well but that is a limited time solution. I’m going to get the parts for the handpump Gary posted so I can build it and install it if I need to.

I have a very large pool in the backyard but without power (I can store powdered chemicals) it is going to become green very quick. I bought a new pump for the front pond and never installed it, I’m going to see how well it works for circulating water from the pool → spa → pool.

I’m working on a gutter raincollection project right now and I had to buy some large tarps until the roof gets repaired so I will have those to use later on.

I also live on a S. Florida canal but I think drinking that water would be my last choice.

Lurker Mom – at 10:53

nopower at 10:23

I too have a pool in Florida. If the water turned green and I boiled it and treated it with bleach, would that make it safe to drink? Could I use this water even if the pool filter had been off for weeks or more?

Lurker Mom – at 11:05

Also, a question for anyone who may know.

I’m sure this has been addresses before, so I apologize. Is it safe to drink expired or really old water? Aside from tasting stale does it harm you in any way?

Edna Mode – at 11:11

Anon_451 – at 00:40 Have a Big Berkley and a Miox…

Anon_451, Would you be kind enough to explain to me why you have the Berkey AND the Miox? I have water resource redundancy similar to your setup, but I do not have the Miox, and am wondering if I need it. My understanding is that the Big Berkey will handle heavy metals, biological nasties (including crypto and ghiardia). I plan to pasteurize or bleach the water to kill any H5N1, assuming that its even made it here in animals before the pan flu in humans does.

For anyone wondering, Big Berkey is a water filter. It is distributed by New Millenium Concepts, Ltd. (www.britishberkefeld.com) and is sold all over the place. Different models, different types of filters, so do your homework. I found the best buy and good service at www.h20filters.com. (No connection to either of these companies.)

MAV in Colorado – at 12:23

EM- Have you seen water test results posted anywhere on the Berkeys? I know a lot of folks swear by them. On the pages I have seen there are lots of “claims” but no links to any real lab stats. How long have they been around?

Kathy in FL – at 12:55

Here’s my water “situation” at present.

Normal means that we are reliant on a well which is reliant on electricity. The well is too deep for hand pumping and a generator that could run the well is not in our budget at present.

Water storage at present:


1. The in-ground pool will be reserved for cleaning and bathing … will be considered non-potable.

2. I don’t expect the electric to shut down immediately. So will have at least 24-hours of notice (similar to hurricane preparation) and will fill all household containers as well as water barrel(s).

Current stored water capacity equals approximately 307 gallons. Considering that we have a family of 7, that isn’t as much water as you would think. If you go by the recommendation of 1 gallon per person per day that would mean that I have to have 49 gallons per week. 307 gallons divided by 49 = 6.27 weeks of potable water for a family of seven to be used for drinking and cooking.

I plan on actually stretching that out even further by recycling water from canned goods as well as supplementing using canned juices and fruits.

I estimate that I have enough stored canned goods, fruits, juices, and sodas to Get that 7 gallons per day of potable water down to 5 gallons per day which would be 35 gallons per week instead of 49 gallons per week.

So 307 gallons divided by 35 gallons = 8.77 weeks of stored drinking/cooking water.

That’s better, but still far from having a solid 3 month supply. Extreme heat will make that even worse.

I have repaired some guttering we had on the house so that it is now much more effecient. I also want to install screening over the gutters to keep as much debris out as possible. I’ve noticed that even without rain, we have one gutter that drips fairly constantly because of the roof condensation.

If I can gather even 1 gallon of “found” water per day for filtering that would stretch my current water supply even further. That would mean that I could go from 49 gallons per week down to 35 gallons per week down even further to 28 gallons of water per week that I would need to actually store. 307 gallons divided by 28 = 10.96 weeks.

Lesson in all of this is that with some creativity, some active water storage now, and some pre-planning that I’ve gone from having just a little over 6 weeks of water to nearly 11 weeks with very little extra work. I’ve essentially doubled the amount of time my current water storage capacity will last.

I haven’t even gone into rain catching, followed by water filtering. In a good downpour around here I could re-fill a 50 gallon water barrel in under an hour just using my current house gutters … that would even include any water caught using a tarp system and any buckets that I could set out.

Little bit of work … big rewards. Sure, I’m worried about water, but not as worried as I used to be. <grin>

ssol – at 13:09

I have (6) 55 gal. barrels and about 100 gallons in 5–7 gallon units. I do not have a generator yet. I am leaning towards a smaller generator for running a few lights, computer and sump pump - but not the well. For my well I may get a handpump (about $1,300) or I’d like to get a well bucket but have not been able to find a good set of plans. I may have to rig that with input from some friends. Anyone see good plans?

Dusty – at 13:17

Lurker Mom – at 10:53 We have a MIOX water filter and a large backyard pool. If we need to drink the pool water, we’ll use the filter and will drink it. We may use the pool water (after MIOXing) for washing also. We bought extra pool shock and chlorine. We have a solar cover for the pool — will probably put it on to keep leaves, palm frons and sticks out for as long as possible.

Kathy in FL – at 13:17

ssol – at 13:09

In addition to the 1 50 gallon barrel that I have at our primary residence, I have two more at our “rural location.” I’d bring those barrels here accept that they serve a current use there … I water trees with them.

I need to get back to north Florida and see if I can locate any more barrels. I’d love to bring 2 or 3 more home … especially considering they only cost me $15 each not too long ago. $45 for 150 gallons of water is a bargain.

DennisCat 13:34

About how many gallons per flush and how many flushes a day?

I figure I use about 2.5 gallons/ flush, and about 3 to 4 flushes a day. I am lucky in that I have all the water I want to pump (solar) or carry. So I my “budget per person” is about 10 gallons a day for sanitation and about 10 gallons for drinking, cooking,cleaning. My average daily use is normally around 50 to 60 gallons for two of us so I think this is about realistic.

Is that about what others are calculating?

Kathy in FL – at 13:45

DennisC – at 13:34

For potable/drinking/cooking water I am going with the recommended 1 gallon of water per person per day. I know that is a “minimum” but for a family of seven, I believe that no matter what we do, conservation of resources will be a primary necessity.

For waste water I will need a minimum of 10 gallons for body hygiene … that is 2 fill-ups on the 5 gallon solar shower with perhaps a little water left over from hand/feet washing.

For flushing, it will depend on any illness in the house. If no one is sick and there is no power, then I’ll probably tape off the toilet handles and have one or two flushes per day … with some strong odor control in the bathrooms. OR we’ll set up an outside toilet for day-use and chamber pots for night time if that isn’t doable. If there is illness in the house, we may have to waste the extra water and just pray for rain … I’ve got a bunch of five gallon buckets (used to hold plaster) set aside in case of need up-chuck buckets, etc.

So much depends on if we have any sickness in the house.

EnoughAlreadyat 14:11

MAV in Colorado – at 12:23

Berkey: It’s been around since the early 1800′s. Queen Victoria commissioned it for the royal household. Apparently it is used by missionaries and military, but I can’t really find any military using it. I searched under Berkey water filter syestem… research history, research professional literature, and double blind study research. I can’t find anything either. However, I haven’t spent a lot of time. Also, I never heard of it until last night. It seems to be a ceramic contraption… which may be the forerunner to some of the more simplistic ceramic methods used in field work [like in developing countries.] That’s just speculation on my part. It seems pricey, as do the filters. Looks like it comes in various sizes. On the other hand, it seems to come in several sizes. I just don’t know enough about it. Hopefully, somebody will do some more ‘splainin! ;) *I’d think there would be some study on it with sandia labs, again, just a guess. That’s the kind of stuff they seem to love to study! Especially if it helps the military.

EnoughAlreadyat 14:13

well… double talk on the sizes… multitasking, sorry!

MAV in Colorado – at 14:43

Thanks ALOT E/A! I am a long time user of the MSR backbacker pumps and have a highcountry river 75 yards from the house so I am really just curious. Hand’t heard of them till here on the Wiki but lots of folks seem very convinced in their efficacy.

OK Berkey users….anything more than manufactures claims available? please post THANKS

Edna Mode – at 14:44

MAV in Colorado – at 12:23 The link I posted above has a good FAQ and info on test results on the page “ceramic filter.” I know several people who have them and have awful water that is crystal clear (certified by testing) once it is filtered. I am having water tests done on my rain water and marsh water. Will post results when I get them in a couple weeks. My sister also spoke directly to the owner at New Millenium, she grilled him extensively (she works in microbiology), and she was satisfied that the Berkeys — WITH THE BLACK BERKEY FILTERS — will do the trick.

Edna Mode – at 14:52

More info under the Super Sterasyl Ceramic Elements link on that site as well.

Edna Mode – at 14:55

EnoughAlready – at 14:11

Berkey is expensive, but the filters last up to 30,000 gallons with simple maintenance, no expensive pills or carbon to replace, you can filter a lot of water vs. smaller backpacking style filters, etc. Overall cost of ownership ends up being less for Berkey than other filters.

MAV in Colorado – at 15:22

EM, thanks, I saw those pages but still appeared to be manufacture “claims”. hmmm The rivers and creeks are crystal clear snow melt here and still occational reports of giardia. If they have been around that long and are that widely used I’m sure there would be a real study or independent test data results available. Filtering tap water and “wild” stream water are two different things though.

NJ Jeeper – at 15:23

I just checked out the Big Berkey 4 filter unit and it does not eliminate pesticides and herbicides. I guess in suburbia we can not eliminate all contaminates, but is anyone else concerened about elimating these? Do any of the Berkeys or other filters eliminate this? THe Berkeys look great, and this is the only weakness I could find, except there are several options on filters. Is the extra number just to get more water throughput or is it a better filter?

NJ Jeeper – at 15:37

Goju, you posted this on Flutrackers about the Big Berkey.

Each set of two (2) elements will remove harmful pathogenic bacteria such as E-coli, Cholera Salmonella Typhi, Giardia and Cryptosporidium. The filters remove and reduce unwanted chemicals such as Chlorine, lead, rust, sediment, pesticides, herbicides, organic solvents, VOC’s, SOC’s, Trihalomethanes and foul tastes and odors

Can you expand on the reduciton of unwanted chemicals? Just trying to get a little specific on the technical data.

Edna Mode – at 15:45

I will contact New Millenium to see if they will point us to actual studies. I know they exist. I just don’t think they have the results/papers posted. Their site is rather crude. It doesn’t seem that they have put many resources behind it. And frankly, they don’t really need to. They sell very well. If there is anyone on the wiki that has experience using these in the field (e.g. working for an NGO), that would be great info to have. Herbicides and pesticides are worrisome, but where I live, they are not in abundant use, so I’m not overly concerned. Especially when you consider that half the towns around where I live are spraying pesticides on the stinking fields my kids play on. I don’t like it, but there’s no escaping it. And no one in our house has sprouted a second head or third eye, soooo… ;) (obviously not very rigorous standards on my part, eh?)

Patc – at 15:51

I have three questions. Can’t we just purchase the Berkey filter and make our own holding and drainage buckets out of 5 gallon buckets? Doesn’t water in the hot water tank need to be drained and refilled periodically to keep it safe to drink? I have seen some nasty looking stuff come out of those things! We have purchased a Katadyn pocket microfilter (13,000 gallon) it says safety level two. Does that mean we still have to boil the water?

new name – at 16:35

We have water for about 4 months. Have quite a few collaspible jugs and 5 gallon buctets besides bottled water. The jugs and buckets are empty right now. My question is this: When we fill these empty jugs and buckets are we suppose to put chorline in them at the time?? We have city water which already has chorine in it. Anybody know???? What is everyone else going to do? Thanks

MAV in Colorado – at 16:36

Usually chemicals are absorbed by some sort of carbon element with in the filter. Patc-I saw someone here on a previous water thread about making their own with manufactured cartidges like you suggested. But again it boils (pun intended) down to the capability of the cartridge. Not sure what “safety level 2″ means. Just remember that with any method of filtration/purification all it takes is one overlooked drip or contamination from the untreated water source into the “good stuff” and your potentially hosed. Its easy to do-again, practice makes perfect!

LauraBat 17:11

Currently I only have about one month’s worth of bottled (purchased) water. I am simply running out of space to store it allIf I have enough warning (eg. if things start to get ugly and I think we’ll be SIPing soon) we have 10–5gal collapsable jugs, a decent sized kiddie pool, plus all the bath-tubs and two utility sinks. I’d fill all of that plus whatever else I can find to put water in. We have a well with an electric pump so water has always been a big isue for me. We are getting gennie to run the well plus keep the fridge/freezer working off and on. We’re planning on storing enough fuel to run it full blast for one week, but using it off and on it should last 2–3 times that. I sincerely hope that power outages are intermitent so when it is on, I can re-fill all my storage containers.

LauraBat 17:13

Forgot to add that I have three neighbors with pools, another with a very large pond and another with a small pond. Plus there are a few running streams nearby, although i’d have to drive to them to fill up containers. I have a filter and tablets to purify that.

mj – at 17:16

Used Berkeys overseas in Africa and Middle East. Took can’t see thru it water and had drinkable. I got the larger one, because if we are sick, we won’t be “making water”, we’ll just want to turn the tap and have it there. Small portables are good if you’re traveling, but at home, you want water. Never got sick from the filtered water overseas. Don’t know about studies etc., but Uncle Sam used these too for their folks, I believe.

Kathy in FL – at 18:54

new name – at 16:35

My understanding is if you are using water that has already been chlorinated that as long as you are putting it into containers that have been cleaned and purified then you don’t need to “re-chlorinate” it for storage.

Anon_451 – at 19:32

Edna Mode – at 11:11 I started with the Miox but after getting it realized that it would not give me enough water with out using a lot of batteries. Changed the game plan. Got the Berkley for heavy use and the Miox for travel and or light work if I am down and DW has problems getting water. As a very last resort we would filter the Kiddy pool water and drink that. I understand the long term risk but…

new name – at 19:33

Thanks Kathy, I’ve heard both versions so I wasn’t sure. If we are going to get sick I sure don’t want it to be from drinking too much chlorine.

SCW AZ – at 19:58

Patc – at 15:51 I have three questions. Can’t we just purchase the Berkey filter and make our own holding and drainage buckets out of 5 gallon buckets?

YES!!! Been there AND done it. VERY easy. . . 2 buckets one lid and drill a couple of holes. . .

Dreamweaver – at 20:10

This is what I will use for my swimming pool water. http://tinyurl.com/aft97 You could even use it in mud puddles. I got style C with style A. Water gets pre-treated to kill virus. Water goes through Stresyl ceramic candle. Water goes through resin coated, carbon block filter to get rid of heavy metals, chlorine and any other nastys left. Result is clean, pathogen-free drinkable water

Buy 2, ceramic filters can break if dropped.

Or you could make this with the above filters. http://tinyurl.com/eurks

SCW AZ – at 23:39

I looked into water purifying filters and units. Me thinks the “Black Berkey” filter is the best. “Google” it and see what you think yourself. I’m too cheap to buy a whole filtering unit for a couple of hundred $$$, I just bought a couple of filters ($80.00) and built my own “unit”.

2 - five gallon FOOD GRADE (#2 in a triangle is stamped on the bottom of the) buckets with lids. Drill a couple holes in them and you are up and running. . . I also “popped” for a spigot, so the pictures you will see are the “de luxe” model. Spigot not required, just a convenience.

Pull off the spigot and the filter, throw them into the buckets and it’s pretty portable. . .

The filters are can be cleaned with Scotchbrite cleaning pads. Each filter will last about 3000 gallons. Straining water before hand is recommended if you are using pond or puddle water.

Thought I’d share this with everyone as I’m new to the community and want to make a contribution.

5 Pictures can be found of this at:

http://gilmore100.photosite.com/album1/

Picture of Black Berkey filter

Picture of 2 buckets, one atop the other

Picture of filter installed in Upper bucket

Picture of bottom side of Upper Bucket

Picture of Lower bucket

(option spigot is shown)

26 September 2006

EnoughAlreadyat 02:20

MAV in Colorado – at 15:22

I’ve spent the whole day, off and on, looking for some sort of sound scientific study on the Berkey. I can’t find it. Even switched search engines. I find it hard to believe there are no sound scientific studies out there. I still believe if it has been done, sandia lab would have done it… they just do this kind of testing.

I had a table [format] that had age groups (infants 0–3 mo, 6–9 mo, 9–12 mo, tots, children, teens, adults, different activity levels) and even pets, toliet flushes, laundry, dishwashing and gardening water uses. You could calculate water use by the week, month and yearly utilizing this chart. For the life of me, I can’t find it. I have looked all over the house for it… I just had it because we are upgrading our well holding tank. And, I want to add another tank to that. I have looked on the internet for it and can’t find it. I know it exists! (So, those Berkey studies may be hiding out there too, buried in some stack of information overload!) If I find it, I will let y’all know… it’s really handy and helpful.

If you take the 2 gallons of water needed a day (minimum) per person figure, multiplied by 31 days, that’s 62 gallons “minimum” a month for one person. I figure it is most likely potable water, not gray water… figuring hygiene and sanitation being extremely important in this scenario. Remember, certain things increase your need for water. One of those things being sickness and increased activity. If electricity is knocked out… it’s gonna mean more work then most of us are use to doing. And this minimum amount is “essential”… not something to be rationed. Hygiene and sanitation are going to be so important. I can flush my toliet with ditch water. But, I’m not going to brush my teeth with it, or wash my hands in it. Finding water sources, especially potable water, is the number one important prep. I’m worried about it and I have a pond, a well, storage containers, a canal a mile away, ditches, bayous nearby, & stock troughs. There are too many “what ifs” not to be concerned. I also know where to look for water (vines, banana tree, follow ants, etc), how to make a distillation syestem and how to create water (condensation.) But that doesn’t make me complacent in my quest for procuring potable water… heck, water period. It is soooooo seriously important!

One of my daughters lives in a neighborhood. She has an in ground pool. She is also getting something along the lines of what MAV in Colorado – at 02:15 mentioned. She is not far from a major bayou. Another daughter [single mom] lives in an apartment. She has collapsable containers. Major point is, we have scouted their surrounding areas for potential water sources. Problem is, so will everybody else. We’ve tried really hard to think of ‘unusual’ water sources. Another problem… conditions may be so that they can’t or shouldn’t be going out to procure those sources. My husband, their dad, is a chemist who works with treating waste water. But, without a source… what’s to treat? There will be more people than not in this situation. IMHO, it will be water more than any other thing that will break the proverbial camel’s back… if there is no water source. Along with no water source, comes an array of health problems. You can go a lot longer without food than you can w/o water.

Procuring and securing water has to be the number one prep individually and collectively! It is just the most important element to survival. I believe it will be water, before food, that people will go nuts over. I pray we have water!

lohrewok – at 07:58

SCW AZ @ 23:39 I like your idea alot. One site I went to looking at the Berkey filter said the berkey unit requires 2 filters. Does yours? From your pictures it doesn’t. Where did you get your buckets?

Edna Mode – at 08:55

EnoughAlready, Could your single-mom daughter who lives in an apartment get a water bed? That’s a lotta water.

Edna Mode – at 09:25

I am pasting below info from the New Millenium Web site (http://tinyurl.com/krbf6) from the FAQ on Black Berkey filters. It is not hard and fast test results so won’t appease all, but it is worth a read. I’d be curious to see if people agree or disagree with the info. I have sent an e-mail to the manufacturer requesting actual test results. Please keep in mind, the info below applies only to the Black Berkey filters, not the regular ceramic filters.

What is the Micron Rating of the Black Berkey® purification elements?

‘’With respect to the micron rating, we do not use or publish a micron rating for the Black Berkey® elements for the following reasons.

There is much confusion with respect to nominal and absolute micron ratings. An absolute micron rating is one that states the maximum pore size expected within an element. The nominal micron rating is the average pore size within the element. This means that if 90% of the pores are .02 microns and ten percent are 2 microns, one could claim the nominal micron rating as .2 microns, which would imply that pathogenic bacteria and parasites would be totally removed. But in reality the bulk of the water would channel through the larger 2-micron pores and thereby allow both bacteria and parasites to pass through. Therefore a nominal micron-rating claim can be very misleading.

With respect to the absolute micron rating, there is also confusion because there are two different standards to determine absolute; in the US the standard is 99.9% removal, but the international standard in 99.99% removal or 10 times greater removal.

Clever marketers of products can use the confusion over the above differences to make product “A” appear to be better than product “B” when product B may be far superior in reality. For example, we used to report an absolute rating using the international standard because we have a large international customer base. Several years ago we published a rating on our ceramic filters. A particular company began to publish that our elements were .9 microns whereas theirs were .2 microns. However, our micron rating was based on absolute (international) while theirs was based on a nominal(US)rating. When tested at Spectrum Labs, it was found that at the .2 to .3 microns range our filter removed more particulate than the other brand. Unfortunately many people make there purchasing decisions based on a micron rating that can be legitimately distorted and to a significant degree.

We soon became weary of trying to explain the above to our customers and so we decided not to participate any longer in publishing a micron rating. Rather, we think an absolute pathogenic bacteria removal rate is a far better gauge because it is far more difficult to abuse. Based on that criterion, the Black Berkey® elements remove greater than 99.9999999% of pathogenic bacteria such as E.coli. To our knowledge, no other personal filtration element can match that capability. In fact, the Black Berkey® elements are so powerful, they are unique in their ability to mechanically remove food coloring from water.’‘

NJ Jeeper – at 10:21

Edna Mode Thanks very much for this link. I have decided on one of these, but there are so many options for type, size and especially filters, that I will have to go thru this and study it. But do you know the difference between the black berkey and the regular filters. If I am going to buy one, I want it to get out as much stuff as it can. What about the metal vs the clear? Let’s compare notes and anyone else who knows about this, feel free to contribute.

Thanks for the info. Great link

Edna Mode – at 10:51

NJ Jeeper, Here is a link to another page in the FAQ that compares the different Berkeys: http://tinyurl.com/jmxoe

The Berkey Light is made for outdoor use so is lighter than the stainless steel Berkeys and it also includes a light (that you can get a solar charger for).

Before you spring for the full shebang, check out the pix that SCW AZ linked to earlier in this thread. If I had seen those first, I probably would have saved myself some loot and had my husband rig one of those up. If you plan to use it for other purposes (it is great at treating tap water), you may want to get a stainless steel one for aesthetic reasons if you will have it out in plain view.

NJ Jeeper – at 11:17

Why would I want a light? If it is to use as an emergecny water source couldn’t we just use the plastic one and save $. Any downside to it? Will the filters all fit?

Edna Mode – at 11:30

NJ Jeeper – at 11:17

By plastic one, do you mean a homemade one using food grade plastic pails? Yes, I think those would work fine. If by plastic one you mean the plastic Berkey (aka Berkey Light), I think it is actually cheaper than stainless steel. The light is built in because it is designed for use outdoors where electricity and illumination might be issues at night I guess. As far as filters fitting, I would check on the site or call the company. I’m not an expert on Berkeys. I know the specs for the one I bought. My understanding is that the filters are interchangeable, but they do come in different sizes, so I’d doublecheck before making a purchase.

NJ Jeeper – at 11:34

Ok, thanks, many questions to ask them. There are several places that sell them. I was going to start at the site you linked. Did you get yours there and were you happy with the service? I think they are the official mfg/distributor according to their website.

RBA – at 11:36

I’m now starting to look at Plan C for water … when we get to Mad Max stage and I have no more fuel for the generator to run the well pump. Folks (Gary Near Death Valley etc.) have referenced hand pumps for a back up solution. I am wondering:

a) how deep are your wells? b) what products have you found?

Our well is actually high above our house and I am hoping that should it be necessary, I could run a hose down into the well … then use some sort of 12v or person powered pump to create a siphon … filling our 1500 gal. tank (I will buy tomorrow) when we need it. My thought was to find a large 12 volt marine water pump. But if there is an efficient person powered unit, I would feel more secure.

MAV in Colorado – at 12:23

EM, thanks for that blurb. Somewhere yesterday I found the actual reports from Spectrum (2001) and one other (not dated). I think a Berkey would be a nice addition.

MAV in Colorado – at 12:42

EM, thanks for that blurb. Somewhere yesterday I found the actual reports from Spectrum (2001) and one other (not dated). I think a Berkey would be a nice addition.

Edna Mode – at 12:54

NJ Jeeper – at 11:34

I bought mine from www.h2ofilters.com. Good service and prices, but I bought mine in January, so prices may have changed.

MAV in Colorado – at 12:23 EM, thanks for that blurb. Somewhere yesterday I found the actual reports from Spectrum (2001) and one other (not dated).

Glad to help. MAV, if you still have the links to those reports, could you post them? I’d like to take a look at them myself, and I haven’t heard back from New Millenium yet. But don’t kill yourself digging them up if they aren’t readily accessible.

MAV in Colorado – at 13:09

http://tinyurl.com/f69mr

just saw this. hmmm, looks super rugged. Throw one in the back seat for the bug out?!

MAV in Colorado – at 13:28

OK, here are the Micro and Toxicology reports from U of A (no date), Spectrum (2000) and LSU (2003)

http://tinyurl.com/mgbo6 http://tinyurl.com/qwhbp http://tinyurl.com/ltoqb

that ought to satisfy the leary!

anonymous – at 13:48

With the Black Berkey filter (specificaly referencing SCW AZ’s bucket design), is there a perceived need for the Berkey PF-4 POST FILTER REDUCTION ELEMENT connected to the bottom of the Black Berkey element (immersed in the lower bucket of filtered water), to remove additional heavy metals, et cetera? The Black Berkey is claimed to remove 95% of heavy metals and I wonder if the additional post-filtration element might be needed.

Mari – at 14:09

I’ve got 3 used open-head 55-gal barrels, 2 used closed-head 55-gal barrels, and 2 new closed head 55-gal barrels, plus about 150 gal available in used plastic buckets with lids. Rounded up, that’s about 550 gal for 2 people. I need that capacity since I live in a low rainfall area. I’ll keep collecting used plastic buckets - they can be used for lots of things. I also have a number of cleaned-out milk jugs that can be filled and used as supports for the PVC pipe structure mentioned below (while they may leak eventually, that’s also extra surge storage).

I used two of the open-head barrels to store harvested rainwater during the summer. A dark brown pepper residue they had in them in June is almost all gone, perhaps eaten by algae that turned the water light green.

If TSHTF, I plan to tarp two sections of the roof that form valleys that will funnel rainwater down into barrels, and use two more tarps to collect rainwater in my PVC pipe system (one on the backyard pad and one on the driveway), but the amount collected will depend largely on unpredictable weather patterns for our summer monsoon (total annual rainfall averages about 8 in). I’m on city water that currently comes from deep wells with 5–7 day normal use storage, so either we have water and it’s pretty clean or we don’t have any.

I also have an AquaRain water purifier with extra filters, a Brita pitcher with extra filters, and a backpacking water bottle filter.

Another water preparation is construction of several raised beds where I can grow vegetables intensively to minimize water use.

anonymous – at 14:21

Storage space is a big consideration for us living in an urban dwelling. I made the mistake of buying 2 round 55-gallon water storage drums. I’m happy to have them, don’t get me wrong - but I bought them off a preparedness site thinking that was all I could buy.

I have since found square water storage “drums” that work much better. I know I need more water storage and am now going to be buying the square ones from www.plastic-mart.com. I’ll have to rearrange the storage here, but I think it should work out well and we will never regret having more water.

One additional recommendation I would put forth is not to wait to fill your water storage. You never know what might come up and you’ll be glad you did. Also make sure if you don’t plan on rotating the water for a while that you put a stabilizer in to prevent bacteria growth. I use Oxy-stabile from www.nitro-pak.com. This way I can leave the water in place for up to 5 years.

Hope this is helpful and that city dwellers can learn from my “round” mistakes.

Edna Mode – at 14:31

Thanks for the links to the reports, MAV. FYI, the link to the “super rugged” item isn’t working for me. Not sure if it is me, or if it’s broken.

MAV in Colorado – at 14:56

ahhhh! it was working for me anyway. It was a new/never issued, US military, made by Uniroyal, heavy duty canvas covered, rubber lined, collapsible 55 gallon potable water container. Looked like it was designed to be strapped on a tank. $81 bucks. I will see if I can re find the link. dratts!

MAV in Colorado – at 15:06

www.majorsurplusnsurvival.com Their site is down apparently, check it out later under water storage. Its the big (I think it weighs 50lbs) brown ugly thing. Throw it in the back of the truck, fill it up with the hose and 55 gallons of mobile water.

SCW AZ – at 15:26

lohrewok – at 07:58 SCW AZ @ 23:39 I like your idea alot. One site I went to looking at the Berkey filter said the berkey unit requires 2 filters. Does yours? From your pictures it doesn’t. Where did you get your buckets?

SCWAZ: Got the buckets from Lowes Home Improvement. Contacted the manufacturer and their white 5 gal buckets are food grade plastic. The more filters the quicker the water is filtered. 5 gal could probably hold 5 or 6 filters. . .

With ONE FILTER, the Upper Bucket filled pretty close to the top, it took 2 1/2 hours to “empty”. It doesn’t really get fully drained as the gasket and filter base keep the filtering media about 3/4″ from the bottom of the bucket. . .

So about 4 3/4 gallons with one Black Berkey filter in 2 1/2 hours. . . or about 1.9 gallons per hour for a full bucket, left alone. . . BUT. . .

BUT, since this works on gravity / “water pressure”, the more water in the Upper Bucket, the faster it works. . . After only an hour the Upper Bucket was more than 2/3rds empty, which would be roughly 3 gallons per hour.

If the Upper Buckets water level is not allowed to drop more than 4 or 5 inches the purifying rate is 3.5 gallons per hour.

EnoughAlreadyat 19:40

SCW AZ – at 15:26

On Edna Mode – at 10:51 link, it says: “This system can be expanded to use eight purification elements and is capable of purify up to 26 Gallons per hour.” So, using that great idea of yours… the difference is in the size of the “buckets”? You used one Black Berkey filter, is there any reason 2 couldn’t have been used? Also… click where the black berkey’s are discussed. It looks like they are using those 5 gallon water jugs for water dispensers! Wonder how they add up to 8! Thanks for the great idea, btw!

EnoughAlreadyat 19:46

RBA – at 11:36

Our well is too deep for a hand pump. “filling our 1500 gal. tank”--- is that the tank on your well? I am having a larger tank put on my well, but I thought he said up to 400 gallons. I’m also hoping he can add another tank that is fed by a line leading from the well. And, hoping he can put a release valve of some sort on it… that would solve a lot of problems, wouldn’t it! We also have a generator… but that’s only as good as the availability of gas!

EnoughAlreadyat 19:50

Edna Mode – at 10:51

From the website at your link: “The Black Berkey® purification element formulation has been tested by State & EPA accredited laboratories to exceed EPA & ANSI/NSF (Std. 53) protocol. Tested by the University of Arizona, Spectrum Labs., the Department of Toxicology and Environmental Science, Louisiana State University.”

Welp, that’s it! Thank you! (The water beds can be toxic. I’m not sure how you’d find a food grade waterbed! :0 FDA stamp of approval. This bucket adaptation is sounding more like it!)

Wolf – at 20:03

pfwag: Please provide commentary on this most interesting discussion (we know you’re busy)

EnoughAlreadyat 20:55

I hope pfwag does show up! I emailed him a little while ago about that Water project research book he wrote! Just found that thread…Water Filter Recommendations. Glad I did!

DennisCat 21:04

water beds.

Yes there can be toxins in the water stored in a water bed. But remember you will want water to flush the toilet.

no name – at 21:26

Water…the determining factor for survival.

900 gallons potable water, 6 Aqua tank I, 150 gallon $109.00, goggle for websites. 2/700 gallon industrial tanks HPDE plastic, garden water…70 days/10 gallon/day, 200 sq ft garden (hope for rain), 10/ 55 gallon drums, secondary water usage, hygiene, ect.

Considering guttering house to feed stock tanks under the deck.

Form alliance with neighbor…above ground pool.

Berkey Light with solar panel for water filteration/purification.

nopower – at 22:00

I’m going to replace my old well pump that constantly runs after I get an estimate on the roof (assuming it isn’t outrageous). What I am thinking of doing is this:

NEW above ground pump running 220v (already wired to generator panel) -→ existing filters -→ NEW large (non-pressurized) tank -→ NEW low amp 12v pump to push the water to NEW LARGER Pressure tank -→ House.

The 110v could be run with the generator for a limited time to fill the large tank and the 12v pump could run off battery that could be recharged from the generator or from solar as budget allows.

Looking at new pumps, a 1HP runs at 15–18gpm pulling water from 10′ (my static water table level) which would fill up a 300 gallon tank in approx 20 minutes of generator time. 300 gallons would last a while using it for cleaning, bathing, and cooking.

Thoughts??

27 September 2006

LMWatBullRunat 01:04

those with a large family and large water consumption may want to consider using a slow sand filter if you have questions about your alternate supply’s biological safety, the slow sand filter may be a good fit. I posted on this some time back.

Edna Mode – at 01:10

nopower – at 22:00 I’m going to replace my old well pump that constantly runs after I get an estimate on the roof (assuming it isn’t outrageous)….Thoughts??

Yup. If I were getting my roof replaced at this point in time, I’d get roofing material that is known to be safe for rainwater collection.

MAV in Colorado – at 01:52

Now it’s up and working (MAV in Colorado – at 13:09)

http://tinyurl.com/f69mr

just saw this. hmmm, looks super rugged. Throw one in the back seat for the bug out?!

dirt – at 06:48

Water prep - ugh! So many choices. I think I have decided to go with the Berkey but can’t decide on which filtering setup to choose. What is the best choce, the SuperSterasyl Candle or the Black Berkey?

Edna Mode – at 07:40

Black Berkey is the “all hazards” filter. SuperSterasyl, while good, doesn’t cover quite the same breadth of nasties. Get the Black Berkey.

MAV, thanks again for that link. I am going to order one or two of those. I hate to spend the $$, but the convenience of being collapsible is a big benefit. I have to compare to aqua bags for price. My only concern is whether these may have pinhole leaks or something, but I’ll contact the mfg. Thanks again.

RBA – at 09:28

nopower – at 22:00 In researching this yesterday I came across and interesting idea that eliminates the pressure tank … placing a submersible well pump (the torpedo units) inside your reservoir tank … feeding the house. Since they are apparently a centrifugal pump you don’t get the pulsing that a pressure tank is meant to take care of.

One question for you …. what sort of sensors will you use to fill the “large tank” as it gets depleted?

Are there any plumbers out there?

RBA – at 09:40

EnoughAlready – at 19:46 … my big concern in putting in a large (1500gal) reservoir is that something would happen when the water level is just above the low set point. This would leave us with a significantly smaller emergency amount.

So my current plan is to install the reservoir in such a way that it will sit full and be ready for use via valves and a 110v pump. Should the main well pump fail I can shut a valve to the well and open the valve to the tank.

My big frustration at this point is that I have no idea how old our existing pump is. The reality I’m coming to is that I will need to pull it out and and take a good look at it. I don’t think this will be easy …

nopower – at 13:04

I’m going to find an experienced plumber to consult and probably do the install, I may buy the parts myself if it is cheaper. I was thinking of using two float switches on the 220v pump to turn it on and off (on when the large tank drops to a preset point 20% perhaps, and off when it reaches the safe fill limit).

That’s interesting about using a submersible pump in the tank. I was actually thinking this morning that I may not need a large pressure tank because the 12v can run constantly, unlike the 220v.

I have plenty of room for the “large tank” so I just have to figure out how large I can afford to pay for. The idea of running the generator for a longer time but less often seems to make the most sense to me.

I was considering getting a large fuel tank to store gasoline to run the generator for water, but getting a larger water tank to use less gasoline seems to make more sense. Plus it would be easier to share potable water with the neighbors if I didn’t have to fire up the generator every time someone needed water.

EnoughAlreadyat 13:22

Edna Mode – at 07:40

I called the store (on the website) to ask about the material on the outside of the container. It almost looks like a canvass material. Considering it is used by military, I hoped it would be something like canvass on the outside. (I was raised in the military and married a military guy… who is no longer in the military.) I have seen things that looked like this, very durable. However, they told me it was a plastic material. That’s sort of been my hesitance with the aqua tanks. We live in a hurricane area, and need something that with stands falling debris, etc. Also, toting it in the back of a truck I’d still need it to be very durable. I like the portability… I just need something that won’t easily be punctured.

no name – at 21:26

You mentioned you have an Aqua tank I, how is it in terms of durability?

RBA – at 09:40

What would happen? My husband mentioned something about having to have a certain water level maintained. I am running all the info on this thread off, printing, for him to read over. The well man told us how old our pump was, but we already knew… testing him!

LMWatBullRun – at 01:04

Do you have any idea what thread or threads this might have been on? Or, could you repeat the “using a slow sand filter” info? Thank you! I have been reading about this online.

EnoughAlreadyat 13:26

RBA – at 09:40

In case I didn’t make myself clear at 13:22, I was really asking you what would happen… you mentioned “something would happen when the water level is”. Thanks!

NJ Jeeper – at 13:37

EnoughAlready – at 13:22 The Aquatank are vinyl, and not very thick. I would not move them, or let debris fall on them. The say to lay something under them when you fill them up to prevent holes. I guess this is for outside. I would fill them and leave them alone and not let pets walk on them. They have an aquatank II which looks to be more durable, but of course is more expensive

EnoughAlreadyat 14:19

Thanks, NJJeeper. I’m going to a container store this weekend to look at them. They need to be durable enough for hurricane season (& all it entails), to withstand my dogs and g’kids! It gets pretty hairy in a hurricane & evacuating. (Or any emergency.) All I need is for a big ole pillow tank to start leaking all over the place!

amak – at 14:22

What about those kaydyn (?) filters - anyone have an opinion on them?

RBA – at 15:57

EnoughAlready – at 13:26 My main concern in this regard is a sudden failure of the well pump. If this happens when the tank is full … that’s no problem. But if the pump fails when the water is just above the low set point, one would have significantly less reserve. For this reason I am going to set up the reservoir as I described above. I am also going to go ahead and purchase a replacement pump to have in my prep supplies. Losing water would be such a show stopper, getting a backup seems prudent.

I also made arrangements to have the main “well” guy come by. I am going to pay him for an hour of his time to go through all the scenario’s I can think of.

nopower – at 13:04 Just wondering are going with an above ground tank or underground? Also, have you given any thought to what I call “Plan C” … no outside power and you have run out of fuel for the generator. I am starting to investigate manual pumps that will work for our depth of well … (which I am going to go out and determine right now)

nopower – at 16:34

RBA at 15:57 -

I was planing on an above ground tank, probably plastic or pvc. I haven’t done alot of research on them yet. I have certainly thought about running out of fuel for the genny but my intention is to store enough fuel to allow me to pump well water for a year. I just need to pump it as efficiently as possible to reduce the amount of gasoline I need to store. Our static water level is 10′ according to the company that just drilled my neighbor’s well (and did ours years ago), so I plan to have the supplies on hand to build a manual pump from Gary’s drawings just in case.

As I am starting to see it, the tough part of using a generator is pump well water is having to constantly run it for small amounts of water. If I can fill a 300 gallon tank twice a month and it takes me 30 minutes of generator time to fill it, than I am using 1.5 gallons of gasoline a month. I can easily store 18 gallons of gas.

The big question I need to answer is: What is the most water I can draw from my well at one time before giving it time recharge?

This will help determine what size tank I buy.

MAV in Colorado – at 16:55

EM , thanks for the update on that 55 gal military “bag”. Sure looks like canvas from the picture. It does have tie down points to secure it to a vehicle and since it weighs 500+lbs when full I bet it is fairly substantial. hmmm

SCW AZ – at 17:07

EnoughAlready – at 19:40 on 26 September 2006

My “system” uses 5 gallon buckets. You could fit 5 or 6 filters (maybe 1 or 2 more even) in the bottom of the 5 gal bucket. I only use one filter as I currently don’t use much drinking water. Come pandemic times, I can just drill a hole(s) and add a filter(s). More filters, greater flow rate, more filtered water.

SCW AZ – at 17:12

no name – at 21:26 on 26 September 2006

Water…the determining factor for survival. Berkey Light with solar panel for water filteration/purification.

SCWAZ: no name, you do NOT need a soar panel or power source for the Berkey Light to work. The “light” portion is just a lamp to make it look cool and doesn’t affect the water in any way. Forgetaboutit

28 September 2006

EnoughAlreadyat 00:24

SCW AZ – at 17:07

Did you see the picture/photo where they used those 5 gallon jugs like used in water coolers? The reason I am so interested in those is because I have a water cooler, and the jugs. The cooler dispenses water w/o electricity. With electricity it dispenses cold & hot water… and has a small refrigerator. Also, because the jugs are opaque they could be used in the SODIS method. I figure using the filteration system plus the SODIS method (for that I’d have to set the “operation” up outside, then bring it inside), using both, I think I’d kill whatever is in the water.

Anybody reading the “Water Filter Recommendation” thread? I haven’t finished going through all the links, but it certainly has a lot of good information on it that relates to this.

EnoughAlreadyat 00:37

MAV in Colorado – at 16:55

YOu’re welcome! And… now I know how to spell canvas ;) Why would it need tie downs… when it weighs 50#’s empty, & 500#’s full? I guess so it doesn’t bounce out if you hit a “rough spot” and crush somebody or something. :0 I’ve got to have something my dogs (who will be riding with it in the back of the truck) won’t gouge. Or that the grandkids can’t puncture jumping on it, or poking at it… behind my back!

EnoughAlreadyat 01:03

RBA – at 15:57

Thanks.

I talked to my husband about this. He said that we had to make sure that the size of the holding tank was equivelent to “using” of the water. The tank is made out of some sort of metal and the water couldn’t sit w/o being treated. The chemical used to treat the water (cholor-something-then-another-name-with-a-D) is corrosive to the metal tank. He is going to ask the well guy if there’s a lining (polyethylene or polypropelene) that’s available in the tank. Otherwise, he wants to do a line feeding to an auxillary tank (like those 55 gallon drums are made out of except bigger than that… whatever they’re made out of), with a cut-off valve that somehow lets water into the main tank so it doesn’t go dry. He says there is some problem (priming I guess… we don’t have to prime, but it never has gone dry) with it reaching a certain “low” level. The auxillary tank is treated with the chemical and when released into the main tank is more diluted so it won’t corrode the tank (if it isn’t lined with the above stuff.)

RBA & nopower: Good ideas talking to the well guy & spare parts! I figured or estimated water use today. My washer holds 18 gallons, and I wash 3 to 4 loads a day. There are 6 of us here, multiply by 2 gallons min. daily, plus flushing & dishwashing & bathing… we easily go through 300 gallons a week! (Not including watering garden, etc.) That doesn’t include the rest of the grandkids (13 total) coming here during pandemic. My dogs drink a big tub of water a day… plus drink most of the goldfish pond water everyday (for spite, probably.) I’ve got to figure out a water solution! *Plus, there’s all that powdered milk, etc! ugggh. IF I had time, I’d start a thread… called… overwhelmed (which is the “optimistic” version of “There ain’t no way I can do all this!) ~sigh~

Mari – at 08:44

EnoughAlready – at 01:03 - If clean water is scarce but the power is on (could happen with intermittent power outages), you could route the used wash water to a barrel or tub and reuse it for washing or use it for bathing or flushing, ditto for the rinse water and use it for wash water for the next load or for bathing or flushing. The key is to have containers to collect the used water in and sort clothes so you wash the cleanest ones first. And as people have pointed out already on other threads, standards for cleanliness will relax so you won’t need to be washing clothes as much or as often.

RBA – at 09:34

EnoughAlready – at 01:03 Boy that’s a lot of water! I hate to bring this up … but something that I was going to put on the “Preps you may have Forgotten” thread is the pumping of septic systems. I have Roto Rooter coming tomorrow to empty ours out. I figured one of the last things I want to deal with during SIP (with a house full of relatives) is an overflowing septic system.

nopower – at 16:34 One thing that I have found helpful in figuring out what products (tanks, pumps etc.) are available is to do searches on eBay. The product writeups often have lot’s of good reference material and links.

Urdar-Norge – at 09:48

EnoughAlready:

“my fresh experience with the Doulton gravity filter are exelent.. I tried it out on my well water.. its so full of humus its looks like green tea, with leaves in! I filled up the upper tank and half of the water got thruu, it was crystal clear and tasted good. A litle acidic maybe.. This well seems to be used by the seagull children for swimming exersice.. Well I dit not get sick and feel fine. What I will have to do is to prefilter the larger particles. The algae layer on the cermics was easaly washed away. I have also used it for a month on the tap water. Tastes better and there is something black goo that the filters stops.. probably rust, but I am happy I did not drink it.. Its the perfect and easy solution, and its a cheap system as well. I would like to to declare it the Vespa of watertreatment, or the zippo, or the Primus.. :D”

This is one month old posting by me, I am still healthy as a fish, and that water I drank was full of birdgoo ! I think you may use me as e scientific proven fact that the berkey filter works :)

29 September 2006

Wolf – at 19:31

EnoughAlready – at 13:22 I’ve ordered an Aquatank 150 gal and will let you know what I think of it as soon as I test it out. I plan to put it in my basement on some carpet remnants and wrapped in tarps. No plans to ‘bug-out’ but if the absolute need arose I’d draw water into smaller containers. amak – at 14:22 It’s my understanding that the Katadyn gravity filters are comparable to the Berkeys. I’d be hesitant to rely on the smaller camping-type filters for processing the amounts of water needed for long-term outages. Anyone hear from pfwag yet?

nopower – at 21:06

I’ve done some more leg work on my plan and it is certainly feasible. I’m now figuring a 3/4 or 1 HP 220v Pump to fill a tank between 500 and 750 gallons. I will probably end up using the Shurflo 5.7 12v pump to pressurize the house from the tank. I believe because this pump is variable speed based on pressure I can skip the pressure tank, but I need to confirm. I plan to run the generator once a week to fill the tank and charge the battery for the 12v if need be.

Here is a useful site (http://tinyurl.com/7udbj) for calculating water usage. I calculated 60 gallons a day with two 3-minute showers every other day, normal toliet flushing and hand washing, dishes once a day. This is for two people. I’m going to try to setup the system for 100 gallons a day and that will allow me to provide water to the nieghbors if need be.

I calculate the parts at about $1000 without the battery and solar, plus labor. I believe this system would allow me to have all the water I need and only require me to store 80 gallons of gasoline for my gas-hog generator.

nopower – at 21:16

BTW - The $1000 includes a new 220v pump since mine is pretty old and is running constantly. I might get it fixed and keep it as a spare incase the new one died. If you already have a 110v or 220v pump you could just buy the tank ($300–500 depending on size) and 12v pump ($150).

30 September 2006

EnoughAlreadyat 01:07

nopower – at 21:16

Did you ever figure out this:

“The big question I need to answer is: What is the most water I can draw from my well at one time before giving it time recharge?

This will help determine what size tank I buy.” (It’s one thing we are going to ask the well guy whenever he makes it out here!)

Mari – at 08:44

Thank you, Mari. If there is power, i.e. electricity, I will have water! Even intermittently would allow me to fill my tanks for “potable” water. Also, we have a generator, as long as there is gas. One thing my husband is building me is a “heating tub.” He used this in Vietnam. It’s a steel barrel cut in half, used to hold a tub to boil water in. That way I can boil water, heat water, even cook on it. We are trying to get to the point where we can add raingutters for collecting water. At this point, we just can’t do that. We are devising other water collection methods. Your points are well taken! My biggest concern is potable water! Our ticket lays in that well!!

RBA – at 09:34

We had our septic system cleaned in August. We also had some well work done at that time. We discussed with the well man what we were wanting to do, and we are finally to the point we can afford to do some of it. It was a huge relief to get the septic system cleaned & pumped out. My husband had them put in some little access thing, where he can work on it without having to dig the whole area up for entry. That was another relief!

Urdar-Norge – at 09:48

Thanks for the “testimony”, Urdar! I was so hoping pfwag would show up! He mentioned some products that may be as good as Berkey, except not as pricey. We are seriously considering the Berkey. Not for our well, because we have a filtration system attached to it. But in case I can’t get to that well water. I also like the idea that it is portable. We live in a hurricane prone region. I seem to recall that you were talking about moving to the country. Right? If so, sounds like you did… with the well! Hope all is going good for you.

Wolf – at 19:31

Did you get the aquatank I or II? I am anxious to hear what you have to say about it. We are going tomorrow to look at them.

EnoughAlreadyat 01:26

Wolf – at 19:31

I just checked my email, and pfwag had replied! I asked him to visit this thread if he could find the time! I am so sorry I haven’t checked that email until now! (I have had a house full of sick children and adults! Vomiting. blah)

Cross your fingers!!

Wolf – at 07:04

EnoughAlready – at 01:26 I ordered the Aquatank I (cheaper and I plan to keep it stationary and indoors) It should arrive next week. Let me know what you think when you check them out today. Hope pfwag is able to drop by!

no name – at 07:50

EnoughAlready

I bought the Aquatank I also because of the price/volume. I received my order but haven’t opened the box. Durability was a concern butI am not moving them and have a room to dedicate to water storage. The down side to the Aqua I vs II in my mind is the filling and discharging system. Aqua I has a water cooler type spout and a fill sleeve and the Aqua II has hose connections. Still the $$$’s and volume won out.

Gprep0 – at 09:17

Amak 14:22 What about Katadyn Filters?

Katadyn is one of the most prolific filter manufacturers in the world. Their products have been used by the military and missionarys throughout the world. I personally have the combi (ceramic/carbon)filter for sink and stream use as well as the Gravidyn as part of my preps. The Gravidyn is similar to the Berkey in that it has 3 ceramic and carbon gravity filters good for 39,000 gallons - and it can be had for as little as $154 on many web sites - I’d highly recommend anything by Katadyn. Oh and of course my other preps consist of 250 gallons stored and 19,000 gallons in my pool

pfwag – at 13:44

Sorry to be absent on this thread. I went to the mountains for 4 days and recently had a lot of work to do at my day job (imagine that!) that overflowed into after hours. Between that and finishing up my Water Report (now up to 115 pages) I haven’t had the time to be on any forums. However, since somebody e-mailed me and asked me, here I am.

We take clean, safe, drinking water for granted and just assume it will always be available. However, turning raw water with all the pollutants and pathogens it carries into what is coming out of our taps is a rather complex and involved process. (As I found out when writing my report.) However, for our purposes we can key in on just three things: cryptosporidium, H5N1, and chlorine and its by-products. Take care of those three and most everything else is pretty much taken care of.

If you are using a ground water source you must assume it is contaminated with cryptosporidium (crypto). A CSU study found crypto (and giadia) in every one of 10,000 ground water sources they sampled across the US. If you get crypto or giadia you will be very sick for a long time but rarely die. If you catch Bird Flu you may or may not die, depending on your age and health. If you get Bird Flu and either crypto or giardia at the same time you will surely die regardless of age or health.

Very, very IMPORTANT: despite what you may have heard, chlorine does NOT kill crypto. It can survive and remain infectuous after being in full 5.25% strength Clorox for at least 2 hours and maybe even up to a day. Permanently in the low amount of chlorine in treated drinking water. While heat and strong UV will kill crypto, the only POSSIBLE chemical disinfectant, that you can still drink, that MAY kill crypto, if the concentration and exposure time are long enough, is chlorine dioxide. It can, however, be easily filtered out with a maximum 2 micron (1 is recommended) ABSOLUTE filter. (giardia is bigger than crypto) In case you were wondering, forget iodine too.

British Berkfield (Big Berkey): great filter, tested and proven. The Aquarain is equivalent. As a previous poster noted, Katadyn has a fairly new one out, the Gravidyn, that is similar but less costly. While not field proven like the Berkey you can trust the Katadyn name. In any case, the secret is in the ceramic candles. As another previous poster noted, you can also just buy the candles, get a food grade 5G pail and make a gravity filter, although if you are going to do that there are better and lower costing solutions I will note down below. In any case, when using a standard gravity filter, there are some things you need to be aware of:

1. Since they operate on so little pressure the filters can get easily clogged and the water throughput will greatly slow down. That is why you have to periodically brush (scrape) off the outside layer. Keeping the upper tank full will generate a little more pressure and push the water through a bit faster. Prefiltering the water through a fine cloth screen in another bucket will eliminate some of the gunk that clogs the filter. Why do that instead of just putting the cloth filter on the Berkey and pouring the water in? Because:

2. All the ceramic filters remove crypto (giardia is bigger so it is removed too.) However, the ceramic filters do not remove bacteria or virus. The pores are too big. Bird Flu is caused by H5N1 which is a virus that can live in water for many days. Where would infected ducks and geese be hanging out and defecating? That means you need to pre-filter and add disinfectant (e.g. chlorine from Clorox bleach) BEFORE putting the water in the Berkey or equivalent. The treated water needs to “soak” for about 30 minutes to be sure of killing any pathogens. If you put infected water into the Berkey and then add chlorine some of the infected water will be seeping through the filters before the chlorine can kill the pathogens. While you could post treat, doing so means that you now have an H5N1 infected filter that needs to be periodically taken apart and serviced. Also you don’t want to be bringing potentially H5N1 infected water inside your house.

Unfortunately we now have another problem. When chlorine acts upon organic material in the water it creates a known cancer causing chemical called trihalomethanes (THMS). They won’t kill you as fast as Bird Flu but you don’t want to be drinking them. To remove THMS you need an activated carbon filter. The Berkey Black candles MAY since they are a combination of ceramic and activated carbon. (I haven’t specifically checked. You need small carbon pores and some pressure to push the water through.) This why pre-filtering is also important - to remove some of the organic material which result in THMS forming - and post filtering to remove the THMS which have formed. this is exactly what your water treatment plants does on a much larger scale. You can facilitate removal of organic material also by using coagulation. Add a pinch of ferrous sulfate or chloride to the water when you add the chlorine.

A simple and low cost solution to remove much of any THMS (and residual chlorine) is to use a pitcher filter where the pitcher contains an activated charcol filter. These are the Brita and others that are sold all over the place. One I just recently found that looks like it has a much better filter is the Crystal Quest, http://tinyurl.com/nulrm, which I note is still on sale.

However, do NOT use a pitcher filter as your primary defense!

Some general comments:

Why do you want to remove the chlorine? Because there is growing evidence of an association to bladder cancer and suspicions that it contribues to the formation of kidney stones in people who are susceptable (like me).

Swimming pool water: if ONLY chlorine has been added it can be appropriately filtered and used for drinking water. If other chemicals were added you will need to distill it.

Water Bed bladder - NEVER use them for drinking water. Besides the toxic chemicals (some contain the chemicals inside), they are almost always made of PVC - a known cancer causing material. Only use them to store water for flushing toilets.

Your toilet will use up the most water. Besides the axiom “If it is yellow let it mellow and brown flush it down” if you want to have a flushing toilet, consider changing one of your older toilets to a new low flush model. The one to get is a Toto. I have all the “flushing efficiency” reports if you are interested. There is a BIG difference.

Large water storage tanks - better check the weight and loading per sq foot. A big/heavy one can fall through your floor. Not really an issue with bona fide drinking water storage bladders as the vertical water column is relatively low meaning that the weight is spread out over a larger area.

In spending many hours researching water I realized three concerns that I had never considered before starting the process.

1. When the pandemic starts, how many people will be boiling or purifying the water that comes out of our taps? Mostly we are storing water and getting the means to purify water because we expect that at some time there will be no water coming out of our taps. However, for BF we can’t trust the water coming out of our taps. As the Milwaukee incident http://tinyurl.com/oj2lp illustrated some times things go wrong and bad things happen to a lot of people. The other lesson from Milwaukee is that the contaminated water came out of the taps for 15 days before they discovered they had a problem and shut down the malfunctioning water treatment plant. What if that had been H5N1 in the water?

2. You really can’t trust the water coming out of your tap anytime. Mistakes happen. All over the US, just on a much smaller scale than Milwaukee. Then there is all the other “stuff” that is still in the water coming out of your tap. The problem is that our water treatment plants have to treat a gadzilion gallons of water that mostly ends up on the lawn, washing cars, or going down the toilet. It is just too costly to really purify the small amount that we drink.

3. You want to be messing around with potentially H5N1 infected water as little as possible and surely do not want it in your house.

In the process I found a simple and low cost solution for all three concerns. Use a segmented low pressure filter with a Matrikx microbiological filter cartridge. Put the microbiological filter on your house water tap now and then remove it and use it in the segmented low pressure filter when there is no water coming out of your tap and you need to be purifying raw water. To protect the microbiological filter, add the new and quite amazing nanoceram cartidge as a pre-filter. There is only one place I found that carries both the Matrikx microbiological filter and the nanoceram and they put both in various emergency water filter solutions, depending upon to what extent you want to filter. the entry level one is $100 and will still filter better than a Berkey, although for not as many gallons. See http://tinyurl.com/efaaa for info on the low pressure filter and http://tinyurl.com/hgque for info on the nanoceram. Be sure to follow the links on the nanoceram.

I just recently ordered about $500 of various filtering stuff, including the segmented low pressure filter materials, Matrikx microbiological, 1 micron activated carbon, and nanoceram cartridges from Premium Water Filters (also the best prices I found overall on a wide variety of water purifying technologies and no Chinese junk). I also got 50 feet of hose and some pressure and flow meters. The plan is to construct the segmented low pressure filter with the treatment pail far outside of the house and the filter and catchment pail inside the house. I believe it will still work but don’t know what the flow rate will be with 50 feet of hose. I’ll be taking the setup to the mountains in a week and will try it in a real world environment on raw river water that we never drink - despite all the Coors commercials. That test will complete my water report.

If anybody has any specific questions on anything until then post them here or send me an e-mail. pfwag@lycos.com

Medical Maven – at 13:58

pfwag-Marvelous post. Thanks so much. Forget about bread being “the staff of life”. It’s WATER.

nopower – at 14:03

pfwag – at 13:44 -

You mention: “they are almost always made of PVC - a known cancer causing material”. Are you talking about the same PVC pipe that is used in home applications, such as bringing the water from my well to my pump? Or just a type of PVC made to be bladders and other types?

pfwag – at 14:48

nopower - I’ve always wondered about that too but am not a chemist so I don’t know the difference. I suspect the pipes are probably a slightly different form or heat treated or something. From my (limited) understanding it is the soft PVCs and dioxins that are the problem. I’ve noted that the soft PVCs have a “plastic smell” and the pipes don’t. In any case, the water bed heater probably greatly facilitates the release of nasty stuff into the water.

anonymous – at 14:59

pfwag – at 14:48 … am not a chemist

What are your qualifications for all of the recommendations you make?

pfwag – at 15:28

Qualifications? While an electrical engineer by trade, I have a healthy distrust of anything and everything posted on the internet, do LOTs of research and checking out things back to first hand and original sources, including many hours on the phone talking to people who are a whole lot smarter/knowledgeable than me, resulting in about 1000 hours over the last year put into my water report. As an example, see my Bird Flu Report posted at www.arielco.us When reading it, consider that it was originally posted at about this time a year ago and there have been relatively few updates or corrections. That report was the result of about 250 hours of research which originally started out wondering whether the threat of BF was real or more Y2K like.

Other than that I like to read, have a great inborn BS filter, and the ability and willingness to spend a lot of time, effort, and some money in getting answers.

However, I shouldn’t write long discourses from memory as that is not one of my strengths:

Watts makes the microbiological filter cartridge (the only one I could find that is NSF certified to remove bacteria and virus), Matrikx makes the big activated charcol cartridges, and Argoncide makes the nanoceram. All are made in the USA which has some importance for the issue at hand.

Got to go work on the house prepping for winter in case PBF causes the power to be out for lengthy periods of time.

EnoughAlreadyat 15:30

pfwag… my husband is a chemist… honorary doctorates degree for work & patents. He is outside cleaning the shed, and testing the generator. I will have him look over this thread this evening… & we still have to run to that container store. I really appreciate your input and all the hard work you are putting into figuring out a better, safer method of home water storage. Mostly, I appreciate you sharing with us what you are doing for your family! Thank you for coming, and I will have my husband answer some of the chemical questions. We, too, are trying to figure this thing out. And as always, trying to figure out what to use with limited resources (including $$$) is a challenging issue.

EnoughAlreadyat 15:34

anonymous – at 14:59

Who are you? At least take a number (check to make sure the number your choose isn’t already taken) to tag with your anonymous handle.

Medical Maven – at 19:29

pfwag, I am nominating you for the fluwiki “Medal of Honor”. Any enterprise is only as strong as its base. The availability (or not) of voluminous quantities of safe water will make or break us.

Dr Dave – at 20:16

PFWAG: I like your post. Just one note, however. You should check the decimal point in your recommendations and maybe suggest that everyone look for 0.2 micron filtration. 2 micron filters will not remove all microbes. Both the Katadyn Gravidyn and the Big Berkey will filter down to 0.2 microns, so they are good for everything except viruses. As you mentioned, pre-treatment with sodium hypochlorite (bleach) will take care of any vurus.

pfwag – at 22:35

Medical Maven - I started the effort to learn what to do to protect my family. It is unconscionable not to share with others but thank you anyway.

Dr. Dave: The decimal point is correct for filtering crypto and by extension giardia. You should be OK at 2 micron and 1 micron will definetly do it. If I recall correctly, the smallest crypto cysts are 4 micron with giardia being bigger. I believe 1 micron is the NSF standard for cysts removal.

I knew the Katadyn Gravidyn went lower but are you sure about the Berkey? I’d have to dig through my notes but I am fairly sure the standard candles have bigger pore size. Maybe the black Berkey candles, since they have activated carbon. Regardless some bacteria are down at 0.2 micron, although i do not know if that is water borne bacteria, so something smaller may be needed to be absolutely sure to filter out all bacteria.

In any case, none of the gravity filters will take out a virus like H5N1 and that is what we need the disinfectant for as you noted. There is a lot of false info circulating that says or implies just add some chlorine to the water and you will be OK. Not so as it will not kill crypto or giardia. You need chlorine and a 1 or 2 micron absolute mechanial filter to be safe from all water borne pathogens. While you could heat the water or use lots of UV, the only other viable solution is the NSF certified Watts microbiological filter I referenced above. I also like it because it allows one to have a segmented low pressure filter and keep the potentially contaminated water out of the house.

01 October 2006

Chesapeake – at 08:45

pfwag, about disinfection with chlorine before or after filter. I am on a deep well and I have lots of water stored but just in case I have a katadyn combi and a creek at the bottom of my property. What I was planning on was disinfection as the last stage. From reading Water Treatment FAQ by Patton Turner on the Main Fluwikie page It is a more efficient use of the filter to remove the organics before chlorinating. The Who web page says that if the chlorinating is done first then there is no residual chlorine left to prevent recontamination..http://tinyurl.com/jbwls, so I was going to prefilter with coffee filters then put it through the katadyn then treat with chlorine.

Wolf – at 09:01

Chesapeake – at 08:45 I was confused about this also. I asked pfwag about this some weeks ago. He told us to prefilter (coffee filters are good) and pretreat for ‘gunk’ to separate the solids (I plan on using epsom salts, but there are more and possibly better options) and then chlorinate. Only AFTER chlorinisation should the water be processed through the gravity filter. You don’t want to contaminate your filter with a virus. I plan on initial stages being done out of doors (in sunlight when possible) and only after chlorinisation bringing water into the house to run through the katadyn. I also plan to add a rinsed bag of activated charcoal to the upper chamber. Hope this helps until you get another response.

pfwag – at 22:30

Cheasapeake,

Under normal circumastances you are correct. It is better to filter the water as much as possible then add chlorine. This is exactly what a municipal water treatment plant does. The reason is that it will take less chlorine and generate less THMS. However, H5N1 changes the dynamics as it is currently killing 60% or so of those that catch it. In this case getting more THMS aren’t as bad as potentially being exposed to H5N1 so you want to do everything possible to limit your exposure to H5N1. Besides, most THMs can be post filtered out with a low cost filter pitcher that has an activated charcol filter.

In any case, when you add chlorine it is used up killing pathogens and combining with organic matter to make THMSs. What is left is residual chlorine and is something you should always have - ideally, you should have around 1PPM of residual chlorine. (Excess residual chlorine can also be removed by an activated charcol filter.). This will be the chlorine smell and taste of the treated water. Or you can buy fairly low cost test strips that will indicate the amount of residual chlorine. In any case, chlorine is cheap and, given what we are adding it to kill, too much is better than too little.

Long Beach – at 23:15

Is there any record of any of the three most recent influenza pandemics being spread via drinking water?

DemFromCTat 23:42

continued here.

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